Please continue all your 'Open Thread' discussions here. The thread I started in July has close to 600 comments and is loading very slowly with the new comments' system. I will renew the thread every time it it passes 200 comments to facilitate loading times.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
906 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 906 Newer› Newest»continued....
Reminiscences of the Swami Vivekananda - Manmatha Nath Ganguli (3)
http://www.vivekananda.net/ReminiscenesOnSwami/ManmathaNathGanguli.html
The last time that I saw him was a few months before his passing away. There were many occasions when I went to Belur between my initiation and the beginning of January 1902. As the impressions were not written at the time, the exact dates are not possible to give now. But some of the things that I heard from him I shall try to present here.
Once he said, "This body will never be fit again. I shall have to leave it and bring another body to complete the work. There are many things that remain undone."
On a previous occasion he had said in a divine mood. "I do not want mukti (liberation). As long as there shall be one soul left. I have to come again and again."
The internal condition of China was politically very wretched. The European powers wanted to divide China among them. Japan also joined them in this exploitation and attacked China. One day I asked Swamiji. "China is such an old country. Do you think this ancient country with its civilization will die out?" He was silent for a while. Then he said. "I see before me the body of an elephant. There is a foal within. But it is a lion-cub that comes out of it. It will grow in future and China shall become great and powerful."
Of Indian freedom, he said, "Our country shall be free. But not with bloodshed. There is a great future for India after her independence." At the time he did not say when, but from another brother-disciple I had learnt later that he had said that India would be free within fifty-years.
Once I asked, "What will happen if I do not follow your behest and fall?" He said. "Go and fall to the very depth of abyss. It is I who shall raise you by the tuft of your hair. There is no power on this earth to keep you fallen.
At one time he remarked casually. "There are many souls that will come in future. They shall be free from birth and some shall become free even by hearing the name of Shri Ramakrishna.
He had said. "I want a band of Sannyasins for my work. But some good parents must constitute the nucleus of a better order of things. From this shall originate the future society to outshine the past glory of India."
On the question of women's emancipation, he said, "There is no need of any set programme for uplifting women. Give them education and leave them free. They will work out the solution of their own problems themselves."...
Here are a few incidents that I heard from Swamiji which have been referred to by others. But I give the details as I heard.
Swamiji said, "Then I used to beg my food from door to door in the Himalayas. Most of the time I spent in spiritual practices which were rigorous; and the food that was available was very coarse, and often that too was insufficient to appease the hunger. One day I thought that my life was useless. These hill people are very poor themselves. They cannot feed their own children and family properly. Yet they try to save a little for me. Then what is the use of such a life? I stopped going out for food. Two days thus passed without any food. Whenever I was thirsty I drank the water of the streams using my palms as a cup. Then I entered a deep jungle. There I meditated sitting on a piece of stone. My eyes were open, and suddenly I was aware of the presence of a striped tiger of a large size. It looked at me with its shining eyes. I thought, 'At long last I shall find peace and this animal its food. It is enough that this body will be of some service to this creature." I shut my eyes and waited for it, but a few seconds passed and I was not attacked. So, I opened my eyes and saw it receding in the forest. I was sorry for it and then smiled, for I knew it was the Master who was saving me till his work be done."
continued....
Reminiscences of the Swami Vivekananda - Manmatha Nath Ganguli (4)
http://www.vivekananda.net/ReminiscenesOnSwami/ManmathaNathGanguli.html
Here are a few of his remarks about the national traits of America and India. These were casual observations during his talks and discourses in a conversational mood.
"In America I found them to be full of rajo-guna. They will now try to proceed to sattva-guna. All Europe is predominantly active in achieving material success but America leads them all in this respect."
"Bharata was sattva-pradhana during the days of rishis. Even now inside the bone and marrow India is still sattva-guni. Among all the nations of the world Bharata is still sattvika - more so than any one else - but on the outer shell it has become full of tamas. For a long time they have been passing through a great storm, and their bad days have not ended yet. It is hunger that is killing the nation, and the whole race is dying out slowly. Our duty is to give them food and education."
Once he said, "In America the beds are very soft and cozy. You do not even see such things here. But there have been many nights when I could not sleep in those soft beds thinking of the extreme poverty of my own people. I have then passed nights on the floor tossing, without any sleep or rest."
"To change the condition of India she must be fed and clothed properly. People must get education. The poor are the narayanas. They must be served with food and education."
"The Indians are religious inside. For want of food and clothing the spiritual fire has dimmed. When there will be no want and they get some education, the spiritual fire will blaze once more."
"Do not talk and think too much of child-marriage, widow-marriage, etc. When women get proper education and are enlightened, they will solve their own problems themselves."
About brahmacharya and medhu he seemed to have the orthodox view. I heard him say on his wonderful power of retentive memory in this manner. "If a man can be continent for twelve years, he can have extraordinary memory. One must be celibate and keep his brahmacharya absolutely even in his dream."
He had once told me. "You must know that the Sannyasin is the guru of the householders. Even if you but see the gerua (ochre cloth) bow down to it in reverence. Think of your own guru and pay your respect whether the person is fit or unfit. Keep the ideal of renunciation before you and gerua should remind you of the highest renunciation and knowledge."
To me he advised, "Choose one path. Do not keep your feet in two boats." He wanted me to become a Sannyasin or a householder. At that time was I unmarried. Later on. I chose to be a householder.
concluded
Reminiscences of the Swami Vivekananda - Manmatha Nath Ganguli (5)
http://www.vivekananda.net/ReminiscenesOnSwami/ManmathaNathGanguli.html
One day we were sitting in the right hand room of the Math facing the Ganga. It was generally called the music-room. Sadhu Nag Mahashaya entered the room. He had a dhoti and a shirt on. His dress was anything but neat. His hair was unkempt. His eyes were a little red as if he was intoxicated and the look was rather vacant. He stood near the door within the room and with folded hands said, "You are Narayana - Narayana in a human form. The Master said so. My salutations to you." For some time he stood there as still as a statue.
Swamiji looked at us and said, "Look, engrave this scene in your memory. You will never see this again." Now I think it must have been a state of samadhi. When Nag Mahashaya opened his eyes again, Swamiji said, "Please, tell them something of the Master." Swamiji did not rise himself nor did he ask him to sit. Such attempt would have jarred the ecstatic mood in which he was at that time, and Nag Mahashaya himself would have been very uncomfortable.
Sadhu Nag Mahashaya suddenly smiled the heavenly smile of the gods who have the vision of Shiva's world. He half raised his right hand and said, "It is this, it is this." Every one felt a charge of spiritual energy and the atmosphere of the room was tense with awe and reverence. Then he went out as suddenly as he had come.
******
Hi folks,
Before you belabour S. for his disbelief in God, or try to convert him into a ‘believer’, let me tell you he spends hours and hours singing the great padhikams that are but songs in praise of God! He knows them by heart. And when he is not singing the padhikams, he is singing the Astakam or the Akshara Mana Malai of Sri Bhagavan and the other great devotional compositions.
Why should a person who professes the views that he does, do what he does?
I think all that he is really saying is – he wants to experience God first. The question of God existing or not existing is meaningless or superfluous. When he experiences God, he will know God anyhow as existing, and then again, the question is meaningless. Until then he is doing his sadhana – which is vichara as taught by Bhagavan.
Just think about it folks, there is nothing in S.’s brand of agnosticism that is in contradiction to Bhagavan’s core teachings. In fact if we examine the matter further, we can possibly come to conclusions that may be alarming to some of us here. Because, actually, Bhagavan took it one step further. He said:
“Even if the Trimurtis appear before me and give me darshan and ask me to choose a boon, I would tell them: ‘Be pleased, let me have no more darshan.’”
So, all the devotional chaps, how would you explain that?
Best wishes
I have to say, being around jnanis, the experience that there is a God, is undeniable. I was a skeptic atheist, but I now have some direct experience. Enough, that I know to get my act in order. The pristine, experience around a sage, hints at that the mind can also create terrible worlds, such as Narakas. this has started really motivating my practice lately. The teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi, are no joke, they are salvation. I really get that feel when I read Muruganar. How he felt bound for destruction. And the intensity of his sadhana, for instance, dilligence of wiping the Siva Lingam, etc. One of the things that has happened here, in my experience around sages, is that I realize, experientially, how utterly terrible samsara is. How, I don't have any idea where I could be reborn. Of course, being intent on these practices, probably helps make sure one gets a better situation. But that can't really be counted on. And if this universe arises from the mind. I can easily imagine that far more frightening worlds can arise in the mind, with the same semblance of tangibility. It seems as one deepens, the necessity of intensity, and dilligence of practice, increases greatly.
Shankar ganesh,
wonderful to read the reminiscences of Swamiji and Nag mahasaya.'Veritable blaze of Fire' as Sri Ramakrishna once described Nag mahasya.To just think of these great ones brings instant Blessings.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Mother, one needs faith. Away with this wretched reasoning! Let it be
blighted! One needs faith-faith in the words of the guru, childlike faith. The mother says to
her child, 'A ghost lives there'; and the child is firmly convinced that the ghost is there.
Again, the mother says to the child, 'A holy man is there', and the child is sure of it. Further,
the mother says, pointing to a man, 'He is your elder brother', and the child believes that the
man is one hundred and twenty-five per cent his brother. One needs faith. But why should I
blame them, Mother? What can they do? It is necessary to go through reasoning once.
Didn't You see how much I told him about it the other day? But it all proved useless."
Master's prayer to the Divine Mother
The Master was weeping and praying to the Mother in a voice choked with emotion. He
prayed to Her with tearful eyes for the welfare of the devotees: "Mother, may those who
come to You have all their desires fulfilled! But please don't make them give up everything
at once, Mother. Well, You may do whatever You like in the end. If You keep them in the
world, Mother, then please reveal Yourself to them now and then. Otherwise, how will they
live? How will they be encouraged if they don't see You once in a while? But You may do
whatever You like in the end."
-----------------------------------
Friends,a couple of days back,we were discussing 'experiencing'conscious Death.I will share just one incident(3 decades Back!).I was travelling in a train from Chennai to Delhi,a journey of 36 hours(as scheduled!)in a sleeper class compartment.I occupied the top tier(3 tier arrangement)and on the other side of the aisle travelled a Sanyasi with a young couple and their Baby.The couple were attending to the Swamiji with great devotion throughout the journey.The First night ,I did not approach the Swamiji and stuck to my tier(bed).The next day,when I found the Swamiji alone on the side lower seat,I just went and sat opposite him.The swamiji started the conversation ,just enquiring in a general way.Then suddenly he said-"Vivekananda attained it;Sri Aurobindo attained it;But we have wasted our life.This Life is Gone"-He was referring to me when he said 'we'.I had not told him about my spiritual inclinations nor my liking for these Great ones.
I felt like one numb and struck Dead and felt this man writing the epitaph.As this was slowly sinking in,when the few seconds seemed as aeons,suddenly the swamiji pulled back his statement as if he was compelled to retract-"yes,if we go to Ramakrishna Mutt,we can attain".
It was as if Thakur was there to say-'You cannot writeoff my child like this' and I breathed the breath of Life.
The swamiji then went on about his poorvashrama ,how he served in an udipi Hotel(near my Home in Chennai at that point in time!)as a waiter and how he gave it up on receiving the call,etc ,how they were travelling to Haridwar,etc.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
NISARGADATTA
By all means be selfish; the right way. Wish yourself well,
labor at what is good for you. Destroy all that stands
between you and happiness. Be all; love all; be happy;
make happy. No happiness is greater.
Fear and greed cause the misuse of the mind. The right use
of mind is in the service of love, of life, of truth, of beauty.
If you imagine yourself as separate from the world, the world
will appear as separate from you and you will experience desire
and fear. I do not see the world as separate from me and so
there is nothing for me to desire, or fear.
Were I very rich, what difference would it make? I am what I am.
What else can I be? I am neither rich nor poor, I am myself.
Those of us who are on some
'Spirtual Path', no matter how defined remind me of hanging out
with local farmers. After "rain and crops", the most popular
discussions are "Which is the best truck, Ford or Chevy?" These
debates can continue for decades, even generations. It is never
brought up that no matter which truck used, even Dodge, the vehicle
that the working farmers use gets the hauling, planting and harvesting
done. Those farmers who do not put in the work and study required
have less than steller results. Simular w/Seekers or????. We can
be observed debating methods, teachers, words etc., around the
Satsang shop at any opportunity. Just because one Way of seeding
and harvesting works for us; Does that have to be the only True
Way? We still have to drive and read manuals, maps, our self. If
someone's truck is stalled we can give him a lift, but hauling him into
our preferred garage may not be the best way to get her back on
the road....................... Having said that, Nisargadatta Maharaj is my
teacher, but others have appeared and continue to be. If I have
been cranking that ignition with no progress, and someone with
jumper cables appears, I'll take that charge! But it is my job to
keep it charged. John
@arvind, I think all that he is really saying is – he wants to experience God first.
You are right. His question is absolutely serious, perhaps more serious than my answers. The discussion shows me once more that it is not my job to give advice to others and in the end I'm glad about it.
The following is from today's "The Hindu" Newspaper.
http://www.hindu.com/2010/12/22/stories/2010122264560800.htm
I think it is about Girish Chandra Ghosh.
---------
Alive, yet dead
A man once went up to Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and said he could not refrain from sinning; he had no morals, and was unwilling to reform.
And yet, he did not want to be punished for his sins. Was there any way out, he asked Ramakrishna.
Ramakrishna replied that there was no way for a man to escape the consequences of his actions. The only way out that he could think of was for the man to stop sinning. The man said this was impossible. He could not give up his immoral ways. Ramakrishna then suggested that the man surrender the consequences of his sins to Ramakrishna.
The man agreed and went away. He continued to live his immoral life. Before he did something that he knew was wrong, he would mentally submit the consequences of his action to Ramakrishna. But as he did this, his conscience began to trouble him. He wondered why Ramakrishna, who had done no wrong, should face the consequences of someone else's sinful deeds. The thought brought him to tears. And yet, he could not stop sinning.
But in the course of time, as he continued to sin and to surrender the consequences to Ramakrishna, he began to feel more and more remorseful. Ultimately, he could no longer sin and allow Ramakrishna to take the punishment for him. So he went to Ramakrishna and said he had turned over a new leaf. Thus, Ramakrishna's love had transformed even a habitual sinner and made him change his ways.
Such is the love that great gurus have for mankind, and such is the influence that they wield on people; the effect they have on people is nothing short of miraculous. It is like turning brass to gold. Can anyone do such a thing? But the act of making sinners give up their ways and take to a life of spirituality is nothing short of a miracle. True gurus achieve what is impossible for others, and they do it with their love, said Suki Sivam in a lecture.
We must seek out such gurus and attain liberation. Those who do not get beyond their everyday life are dead, though they may be alive.
What is the use of our life if we just eat, sleep and die, and do not move to a higher plane of thought?
-------
Friends,
Today is Arudra.Here is an excerpt from 'The Letters from Sri Ramanasramam:
DEVOTEE: “How did this Mountain get the name
Annamalai?”
BHAGAVAN: “That which is not reachable by Brahma or
Vishnu is Annamalai. That means it is the embodiment of
the Jyoti which is beyond word or mind. Anna means
unreachable. That is the cause of the name.”
DEVOTEE: “But the mountain has a form and a shape.”
BHAGAVAN: “When Brahma and Vishnu saw it, it
appeared as a pillar of Light enveloping the whole universe.
It was only later that it appeared like a mountain. This is
Ishwara’s sthula sariram (gross body). Jyothi itself is the sukshma
sariram (subtle body). That which is beyond all these bodies
is the Reality. Subtle means the Tejas (illumination which fills
the whole universe).”
Letters from Sri Ramanasramam 311
DEVOTEE: “Was it the same thing even to Sundaramurti?”
BHAGAVAN: “Yes. At first it appeared as Jalamayam
(expanse of water), subsequently as Tejas (Lustre all round)
and finally to the human eye it appeared as a temple.
Mahatmas always look with divine eyes. Hence everything
appears to them as Pure Light or Brahman.”
NAGAMMA: “Bhagavan has, I believe, written a padyam
(verse) about the birth or appearance of the Arunachala
Linga, is it true?”
BHAGAVAN: “Yes. I wrote it on a Sivarathri day in the
year Vikrama, when somebody asked for it. Perhaps I have
written it in Telugu also.”
NAGAMMA: “Yes. It is stated in that Telugu padyam that
the linga appeared in dhanurmasam on the day of the Arudra
star; that Vishnu and the devas worshipped Siva who gave
divine vision to them; that was in the month of Kumbha.
What is the original story? And what was the occasion for
the festivities connected with the Krithika star?”
BHAGAVAN: “Oh! That! Brahma and Vishnu were
quarrelling as to who was greater. In the month of Kartika,
on the day of the Krithika star, a luminous pillar appeared
between them. To mark that event, a festival of lights is
celebrated on that day every year. You see, both Brahma
and Vishnu got tired of their fruitless search for the beginning
and the end of the pillar. Depressed by defeat they met at a
common place and prayed to God Almighty when Lord Siva
appeared before them in the pillar and graciously blessed
them. At their request, He agreed to be within their reach
for worship in the shape of the mountain and the Linga (in
the temple). He also told them that if they worshipped Him
thus, He would after a time, come out in the shape of Rudra
and would help them in all possible ways. Then He
disappeared. From then onwards, in the month of Dhanus,
on the day of the Arudra star, Brahma and Vishnu began to
worship the Linga that had manifested itself according to
the promise of Ishwara."
Namaskar.
Shankar Ganesh/Friends,
Here is an excerpt from 'They Lived with God'-on the life of KalipAda Ghosh,a friend of Girish Ghosh:
"Can you give me some wine," asked the man shamelessly to the Paramahamsa in the temple of Dakshineswar. It was surely a most insulting request to make to a holy man in a holy place. But strangely the Paramahamsa was not angered or displeased. His Mother Kali had sent one more player to the game. He glanced at the tall, well-built person of brown complexion, with large eyes and confident look and smiled. Here was one given to enjoy the pleasures of the world to the fullest. He replied: "Yes, I can give you some wine. But the wine I have is so intoxicating that you may not be able to bear it." "Grand. Is it real British wine? Let me have some to wet my throat." "No, it is not British wine. It is completely home made. If a person tastes this wine even once, all other drinks will be tasteless for ever. But not everyone can stand it. Are you ready for such a wine?" The man hesitated for a while, then replied, "Give me that wine which will make me intoxicated the whole of my life." The Paramahamsa touched him and the man started to weep and kept on weeping in spite of attempts by others to calm him. Thus began an extraordinary relationship between Kalipada Ghosh, worldly, passionate and given to enjoyment and Sri Ramakrishna, godly, austere, and prone to ecstasy at the merest hint of divine inspiration. "
For the complete article,Pl Refer:
http://www.theylivedwithgod.info/kpg.htm
-----------------------------------
Namaskar
About experiencing God,
the Sage says, experiencing God is being God.
But nowhere has any Sage said what is 'being God'?
They at most only remind us -
"Tat Tvam Asi"
Ulladu Naarpadu, verse 27 -
Naaudiyaadulla Nilai, naam aduvaai ulla Nilai
‘That’ we are, when ‘I’ has not arisen.
The Sage goes on to only give such "Smart answers" like -
- there is no seeing, no becoming, there is only being.
- remove the thorn(ego/thought,/enquiry)) with another thorn(ego/thought/enquirer) and be done with it.
It all finally comes back to the only fundamentals in the end
Who am I
Who am I
Who am I
I
i
There is a beautiful Song written by Sadasiva Brahmendral -
Sarvam Brahmamayam re re Sarvam Brahmamayam
Kim Vachaniyam, kim avachaniyam?
Kim Rachaniyam, Kim arachaniyam?
Kim Pataniyam, kim apataniyam?
Kim Bhajaniyam, kima abhajaniyam?
Kim Bodhavyam, Kim abodhavyam?
Kim Bhoktavyam, Kim abhoktavyam?
Sarvatra Sada Hamsa Dhyaanam, Kartavyam bho Muktinidaanam
Sarvam Brahmamayam
a raw translation would be -
Everything is Brahma Mayam; All is just the Almighty's presence.
What is to be spoken and what may not be spoken?
what is to create and what is not to be created?
What is to be studied and what is not to be studied?
what is to be recited and what is to not be recited?
What is to be taught and what is to not be taught?
what is to be enjoyed and what is to not be enjoyed?
So, always immerse yourself in "That/Hamsa" dhyaanam and that itself will (take/confer/give/be/being/summa iru/whatever) us to Mukti.
So what can i say or not say?
Sarvam Brahmamayam
Dear Ravi,
Today is Ardra Darsan. Siva is without birth and death, but Ardra
is his star, because on that day,
he danced his cosmic dance in front
of Patanjali and Vygarapada. It is
a red yellow star, reminding of Poonar Meniane..song of Saiva Saint.
In Chidambaram, today is a gala festival day. Early morning Nataraja comes out from the inner sanctorum and stays in a huge
pandal and six times, abulations take place, i.e till 6 PM. In the Asramam, there is one Nataraja idol with Sivakami Amma in Mother's Temple. The Asramam pandits do puja there in the early morning and distribute kaLi, a sweet pongal made of granualar rice. Last year, Ardra and Bhagavan's Jayanti came on the same day. Early morning Nataraja
abulations, kaLi with break fast
and then gala Jayanti celebrations. At 11.30 AM, Smt.
Kanakamma came and prostrated in the Samadhi Hall, not to rise up. She merged with Sri Bhagavan. One
lady who is always in the Asramam,told me: Sir, this is to
re-affirm our faith in Him. What a glorious way to merge with Bhagavan and what a day has been
chosen by Sri Bhagavan!
In our home, we prepared kaLi and submitted it as Naivedyam to the Panchaloka Nataraja idol, I am having since 20 years! This
Panchaloka idol usually gets darker if not cleaned often. The best way to clean is to immerse him in a bucket of warm water mixed with tamarind paste. When the idol is taken away after two hours, it shines like coppery gold! He is called Ambala PuLi. Ambalam [Siva] in PuLi [tamarind water]!
R.Subramanian,
The Marundeeswarar temple in tiruvAnmiyur,Chennai is one of the hallowed temples and it has a very fine Nataraja idol.Truly nothing is more inspirational than to see the lofted left feet that seems to beckon the devotees to come thither and take shelter.
To listen to the chanting of TevAram or TuruvAchakam(ThiruvempAvai in the month of Marhazi)in this temple is truly exhilaratng.It has both the Vedic Chanting(the Other Day it was Sri Rudram)as well as the chanting of the saivaite saints-and there is also a Goshala.To enter into this temple is to enter into the Divine Realms-There is a Vanni Tree under which the Rishis Valmiki and Agasthya hav done Tapasya.The temple has also been sanctified by Thirujnana Sambandhar and Appar.
I specially love visiting the shrine of Mother Tripurasundari-The bonus is to listen when some great devotee calls the name of the Deity or bursts out into song.
Sri Ramakrishna says:
BRAHMO: "Sir, is it good to worship God with form, an image of the Deity made of
clay?"
MASTER: "You do not accept God with form. That is all right. The image is not meant for
you. For you it is good to deepen your feeling toward your own Ideal. From the
worshippers of the Personal God you should learn their yearning-for instance, Sri Krishna's
attraction for Radha. You should learn from the worshippers of the Personal God their love
for their Chosen Ideal. When the believers in the Personal God worship the images of Kali
and Durga, with what feeling they cry from the depths of their souls, 'Mother! O Mother!'
How much they love the Deity! You should accept that feeling. You don't have to accept
the image."
Yes,Thanks for your tips on keeping the Nataraja idol in good sheen.
We had kaLi for Breakfast and Lunch!
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
"I have traveled many places in the world, but nowhere have I come across such a great soul as Nag Mahashay
--Swami Vivekananda
After hearing of the death of Shri Durga Charan Nag (Nag Mahashay):
"He was one of the greatest of the works of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa."
--Swami Vivekananda
Mahamaya fell into a great difficulty in trying to ensnare two persons. Naren (Vivekananda) and Nag Mahashay. As She tried to capture Naren, he became bigger and bigger and at last so big that all Her fetters fell short and She had to give up Her task as hopeless. And when She attempted Her trick on Nag Mahashay, he began to make himself smaller and smaller and at last reduced himself to such a degree of smallness that he easily escaped through the meshes of Her snares.
-- Girish Chandra Ghosh
at times, i have felt that to see a devotee as nAg mahAshay is perhaps even more rarer than a bhagavAn or a thAkur!!! :-) nAg mahAshay = self-surrender (his life convinced me long ago that 'surrender' is something that's impossible for me!) :-)
salutations to all:
on the occasion of 'Arudra', felt like posting this verse of jnAnasambandhar:
(all capitals refer to the 'deeper' or dIrgha sounds)
கோணா கணையானுங் குளிர்தா மரையானுங்
காணார் கழலேத்தக் கனலாய் ஒங்கினான்
சேணார் வாழ்தில்லைச் சிற்றம் பலமேத்த
மாணா நோயெல்லாம் வாளா மாயுமே
kONA kaNaiyAnum kuLir thAmaraiyAnum
kANAr kazhal Eththak kanalAy OnginAn
sENAr vAzh thillai chitRambalam Eththa
mANA nOy ellAm vALA mAyumE.
translates to something like this: (neither the one on a serpent bed (mAl) nor the one on a cool lotus (ayan) could see either end, and offered their praise to the one who blazed in a limitless column of fire; to pray to the one who resides in chidambaram, which is also the home of great men, will result in the most severe of diseases vanishing quietly without a trace)
for me, it implies the following:
that truth which neither reason nor emotion could fathom - to do vichAra and realise 'that' in which bhagavAn abides shall effortlessly 'eliminate' the worst disease of 'i am the body' :-)))
s,
Thanks very much.Holy mother Sri sarada Devi on Nag mahasaya:
Mother: Ah, what shall I tell about him? He looked upon me as the Divine Mother Herself. When he came to see me for the first time I was observing the fast enjoined on the eleventh day of the lunar fortnight (Ekadasi). In those days no male devotee was allowed in my presence. Devotees used to salute me by touching the staircase with their heads. One maid servant used to announce the name of the visitor, saying, 'So and so (the person's name) is saluting you, Mother,' and I would send my blessings. On that day the maid said, 'Mother, who is this Nag Mahasaya? He is saluting you, but by striking his head so hard against the staircase that his head is likely to bleed. Maharaj (Swami Yogananda) is standing behind him trying to persuade him to stop, but he doesn't say a word. He seems to be unconscious. Is he a madman, Mother?' I said, 'Oh dear! Tell Yogen to send him here.' Holding him, Yogen himself brought him to me. I saw that his forehead was swollen, tears were rolling down his cheeks and his steps were unsteady. Blinded by tears, he couldn't see me. I made him sit. He was uttering only 'Mother! Mother!' as if insane, but otherwise he was quiet, calm and composed. I wiped away his tears. I had just sat down to eat my meal of luchi, sweets and fruit when he appeared. I partook of a little of the food and then tried to feed him with the Prasada. But he couldn't eat-he couldn't swallow the food; for he had no outward consciousness. He simply sat touching my feet and repeating 'Mother, Mother'. My women companions began to say, 'Mother your meal is spoiled. Let us tell Maharaj (Swami Yogananda) to remove him from here.' I said, 'Wait. Let him compose himself a little.' As I stroked his head and body and repeated the Master's name for sometime, he regained external consciousness. Then I began to take my meal and also to feed him. When he had finished taking food, he was taken downstairs. Before he left, he only said, 'Not I, but Thou! Not I, but Thou!' I told those who were near about, 'Look, how wise he is.'
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Maharshi: If a true seeker is advised to meditate,
many may go away satisfied with the advice.
But some one among them may turn round and ask:
"Who am I to meditate on an object?"
Such a one must be told to find the Self.
That is the finality.
That is vichara.
D: Will vichara alone do in the absence of meditation?
M: Vichara is the process and the goal also.
'I AM' is the goal and the final Reality.
To hold to it with effort is vichara.
When spontaneous and natural it is Realisation.
Friends,
I wish to share excerpts from an excellent article-'The Theme of Satsangh in TiruppAvai by Sri Sudarshan.Saint AndAl rules the month of mArghazi with her tiruppAvai:
In the cold and misty pre-dawn hours of the month of holy 'mArgazhi' (Dec-
Jan) we see the milkmaids of the TiruppAvai going from house to house
virtually pulling each other out of bed. They cajole and browbeat one
another, crying out "ElOr-empAvaay!"(Quite similiar to the famous uthistatha!JAgratha!Arise!Awake!-Ravi) They entreat each other to rise, shine
and go out together for a ritual bath of purification ("neerAda") in the icy
but sacred waters of the village stream. They beckon everyone in the
community to join in a ritual procession ("vrata") that should convey them to
the very doorsteps of God ("manikadhavu"). There they would beseech His
Grace, they say, and succeed in securing the ultimate goal of human life (the
"parai" or "parama-purushArtha") viz. everlasting servitude to God. (In the
parlance of SriVaishnava theology this is called "nitya-kainkarya-prApti").
The many curious and charming ways in which the simple-minded girls of the
'aayarpAdi' village go about gathering a 'satsangh' serve as perfect
narrative backdrop against which AndAl wonderfully expounds for us the theme
of Bhakti in the TiruppAvai.
And how AndAl tells the tale indeed! In 30 verses of dazzling poetry that has
remained to this day unsurpassed in all the annals of Tamil religious
literature or scripture, AndAL beautifully and seamlessly blends the fervor
of Bhakti with the flavour of Vedanta."
contd....
Friends,
The 'Theme of Satsangh in tiruppAvai' continued...
Vedanta and "satsangh"
The statement that 'satsangh' enables and nourishes Bhakti (and that there
truly is "salvation in numbers") is not mere theological speculation. It has
been clearly and amply vouched for in the philosophy of Vedanta.
Authoritative confirmation of the efficacy of 'satsangh' is available in no
less a scriptural source as that fountainhead of all Vedantic truth -- the
'Srimad Bhagavath-Gita'. In two splendid verses Lord Krishna
himself underscored the pre-eminence of 'satsangh' as a form of worship:
"macchitthA matgatha-prANA
bOdha-yanta: parasparam
kathayantascha mAm nityam
tUshyanti cha ramanti cha"
"tEshAm satata yUktAnAm
bhajatAm preeti-pUrvakam
dadAmi buddhi-yOgam tam
yEna mAmupayAnti tE
(B.Gita: X.9 & 10)
"They (i.e. the members of the 'satsangh')", said Krishna, "they inspire one
another ("bOdha-yanta: parasparam") by constantly exchanging and sharing with
each other their thoughts and feelings ("macchitthA matgatha-prANA") about Me
and My attributes which they themselves are ever experiencing. By narrating
to each other about my divine deeds born of my adorable nature
("kathayantascha mAm nityam"), they live in contentment at all times. The
speakers are delighted by their own speech, because it is so spontaneous! And
the listeners too feel their speech to be of unsurpassed beauty! They live
thus in bliss! ("tUshyanti cha ramanti cha")"
"To such an assembly of my beloved devotees, I lovingly grant ("preetipUrvakam")
that rare but supreme mental disposition ("buddhi-yOgam") by which
they come to Me" ("dadAmi buddhi-yOgam tam yEna mAmupayAnti tE").
The essence of 'satsangh', as the Gita reveals to us, is "bOdha-yanta:
parasparam" --- the unique spirit of collaboration that rules amongst
'bhaktA-s'.
The word "parasparam" may be variously translated as "mutuality", "interdependence",
"symbiosis" etc. Quite simply, it means sharing things with one
another in a spirit of empathy… with an all-abiding attitude in daily life of
"all-for-each, each-for-all". "Parasparam" is really power of spiritual
synergy at work.
The other word "bOdha-yantah" is ordinarily translated as "enlightenment",
"spiritual illumination" or "awakening consciousness". Thus, in the best
possible translation into Sanskrit, the term "bOdha-yanta: parasparam"
contd....
Friends,
Theme of Satsangh in TiruppAvai contd...
Thus, in the best
possible translation into Sanskrit, the term "bOdha-yanta: parasparam" would
roughly mean "collective enlightenment through mutual collaboration".
Worship of God through means other than 'satsangh' is often a severely
solitary experience. The seeker of God engaged in purely meditative exercises
of Bhakti (such as "dhyAna", "manana" or "japa") is absolutely alone in his
state of immersion. None else can recognize, let alone partake of his inner
ecstasy or illumination; nor is the person really keen to share such
experience with anyone else.
Worship through 'satsangh', in stark contrast, spreads the benevolence of
Bhakti with the force of a contagion. The enlightenment it bestows on
devotees is infectious and transparent. Even they who lack meditative
capacity nevertheless get to experience God through sheer collaborative
inspiration. The reason why Bhakti through 'satsangh' is naturally filled
with so much wholesome contentment ("tUshyanti cha ramanti cha") is precisely
because of this all-important element of 'collectivity'. And the Gita calls
it: "bOdhayanta: parasparam".
First-person-singular and First-person-plural
To the discerning reader of the TiruppAvai, whose appreciation of the Tamil
language is no less than his grasp of Vedantic fundamentals, all of the song
will present itself as truly a wonderful allegory on Bhakti rooted as it is
in the principle of "bOdhayanta: parasparam". He will observe that in every
single verse, through a certain phrase here and a particular expression
there, AndAL makes reference, subtly at times and explicitly at others, to
the precept and practice of "parasparam" in 'satsangh'.
As we read the TiruppAvai, we cannot fail to be struck by the fact that in
all the 30 stanzas there is rarely any use of the Tamil first-person-singular
-- "nAn" or "ennudaiyathu" -- "I", "me" or "mine". It is a deliberate and
significant choice of the poetess and we should pause and ask ourselves why?
Within a true 'satsangh' there is really no place for the sense of individual
ego -- of "I", "Me" or "Mine". A true "satsangh" is entirely ego-less because
everyone within it abides by the selfless rule of "parasparam" -- the "allfor-
each" and "each-for-all" attitude in life. Evidently AndAL wanted to make
the point overwhelmingly clear in her song. To that end she ensured that even
poetic grammar in the TiruppAvai was appropriate and abundantly reflected the
fact. She studiously avoided using the Tamil first person singular.
5
In verse after verse of the song, we see AndAl however stressing, emphasizing
and reiterating -- again and yet again -- the element of 'collectivity'
(while avoiding individuality or personal ego) through profuse, even
plethoric, employment of the Tamil first-person-plural --i.e. "nAnggal",
"nAm", "nammudaya", "namakkE", "enggaL" "ellArUm", "yAm" i.e. "we", "ours",
"us", "our own", "we alone", "altogether"… Anyone who carefully examines the
30 stanzas of the TiruppAvai will not miss noticing this grammatical but
purposeful over-use of the Tamil first person plural.
contd...
Hi Devotees,
I am Krishna alias Mr. Confused.
Are anyone in bangalore want to have satsang with me or rather I want to have some satsang.
They can contact me at
ksksat27@yahoo.com.
This is not for advertising but I feel I can really get some boost in my practices.
I
Krishna again:
Some posts back S or somebody argued that he is agnostic and all others who worship God without realization is sentimental. Not exact phrases but somewhat similar.
Then after fewer posts esp. by our learned senior devotee Ravi, his friend arvind said that S chants padikams and akshara manamalai.
I dont know much about highfied intellecutal arguments but what I can say is this approach of agnotism is a manifestation of the ego only.
I may rather be a sentimental superstitious persona and believe Hari and Shiva exist in flesh and blood than to take such a 'genuine search' path.
salutations to all:
on the occasion of our "beloved's" jayantI, writing this verse from kummi pAttu (verse 6):
மூன்று சரீரமுந் தான்மறந் தானவன்
மூன்றவஸ் தைகளுந் தானொழித்தான்
மூன்று குணங்களுந் தாண்டிவிட் டானவன்
மூன்று பதங்கடந் தேறிவிட்டான்
Who is Kummi Patu?
What does the verse mean?
Hi Krishna,
Hopefully, I am not only S.’s friend, but yours too and of everyone’s on this blog.
Just to mention, I think your view is perfectly alright too, regarding Hari and Siva existing in flesh and blood.
This arvind too believes that Hari and Siva exist in flesh and blood. Because the very fact that there is an arvind for arvind to identify with, implies that for now, the Great Gods, this lovely beautiful world, and arvind of course, exist. But that they are all “real”, is another matter altogether.
Best wishes
Dear Ravi,
I have been fascinated by Nataraja
idol since 25 years. I have been
reading Tiruvachakam since that time. No other book can melt your heart, as Tiruvachakam does. In one poem the saint poet says:
I do not want my relatives. I do not want my town. I do not want any name for me. I do not want the learned. All that I want is to
use to my knowledge and sweet names, to sing your glory, O Dancer of Kutralam, and I want
to weep and melt at your anklet-wearing feet, like a calf pines and melts before the cow.
When Mother Azhagama merged in her
Heart, on that eventful night,
Sri Bhagavan, Kunju Swami and a few other devotees, sang Tiruvachakam throughout the night.
Dear S.,
Apart from the direct puranic meaning
of Brahma and Vishnu trying to measure up the top and bottom of the column of fire, the inner meaning
is, Brahma is intellect, Vishnu,
is ego, ahankaram. The Self is beyond the reach of intellect and
ego. Sri Bhagavan also said: What
is the use of reading books. The Self is within 5 kosas,. how to search it outside. So also the ego. The ego should get crushed before one becomes realized.
Dear S., and Anon.,
Kummi Pattu is the second song of
one Satyamangalam Venkatarmana Iyer, who came to see Bhagavan in Virupaksha Cave, in very early years. He stayed with Sri Bhagavan
only for 4 days and never came again to see Him. On these four days, he wrote 4 songs and the 5th one, he sent by post.
1. Kalai Patttu - Early morning song. Something like Tiruvembavai.
2. Kummi Pattu - Song while playing kummi, a game played by young girls clapping their hands and coming as a group in a circular way.
3. PonnoLir Pathu - Decad of
golden effulgenvce.
4. Ponnai Otha Pathu - Decad
of Goldlike or Golden.
5. Sri Ramana Satguru.
These were composed in 1911, much earlier than Sri Bhagavan's Sri
Arunachala Akshara Mana Maalai.
And this group of songs is the only one other than Sri Bhagavan's which is sung in evening Parayana on Saturdays. These songs are avilable in a small booklet in
the Asramam for Rs.5.00
Brahmasri Nochur Venkataraman says that Arunachala Himself came and sang these songs after seeing the boy not singing/writing anything. He wanted to make Him to write or sing something for the benefit of thousands of devotees in years to come.
Sri Iyer uses the phrase "He is the purport of asi padam. Asi
padam is the last word in Tat Tvam
Asi. The guru is the bridge
between the Self and the individual soul. He remains last
but he is the bridge connecting both. In Thou Art That, he is the
Art, that bridges in Thou and That.
salutations to all:
krishna: please don't take whatever i said (or will say) personally :-). relax...
you said ("...I dont know much about highfied intellecutal arguments but what I can say is this approach of agnotism is a manifestation of the ego only...")
krishna - what isn't the manifestation of the ego? and that ironically includes the statement that 'this is a manifestation of the ego'! to say 'the ego is unreal' is also said by the ego, isn't it? we all now & then engage here or elsewhere on some kind of 'ego-bashing'; now, who is doing that if not the ego? there is nothing 'intellectual' about it, paradoxical though :-)
btw, i didn't say "...who worship God without realization is sentimental..." or anything similar to that. don't want to repeat what i said. in a way, it doesn't matter :-)
Folks,
I see on this blog the story of Arunachala and the coloumn of fire. What about the counter story in the Bhagavatam of Lord Siva running after Mohini avatar of Lord Vishnu.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/12/en1
In the above story Lord Vishnu is teaching Lord Siva a lesson.
Are both stories true? Who to believe?
-z
Neem Karoli Baba: Kanchan (gold)Maharahi would say and shake his finger. That and sexual desire were the two main obstacles to realizing God. Again and again Maharaji warned against these fatal attractions, these clingings but how few of us could hear him. He referred to the Western devotees as kings. Most of us had come from comfortable economic backgrounds and so we knew that financial security would not in itself bring liberation from suffering. To know such a thing was a great step forward on the path. Many of the Indian devotees had known only financial hardship and deprivation, and for those people it was often hard to hear that wordly securuty was not one and the same as freedom. Yet there were some devotees who, though they had never tasted of material security, seemed to have no concern with such matters. It was as if they were truely born for god.
Folks, continuing on the inconsistencies of the stories in our Scriptures it is simply the case that many of them have been planted to score over competing schools. I remember having read Vivekananda doubt even the authorship of Bhagavad Gita.It is doubtful if all of that happened between Krishna and Arjuna.It could simply be by some Sage.So also all Tantra books always start with:Thus spake Siva to Parvathi.This is simply putting words in the mouths of our Gods.Some of it could be out of good intention for eg: to kill age long superstition and degradation but the same was used to create confusion and mischief by the egotists.
The following is a dialogue with Swami Vivekananda.
Q. — Here and there attempts are made to import into the Purânas hidden ideas which are said to have been allegorically represented. Sometimes it is said that the Puranas need not contain any historical truth, but are mere representations of the highest ideals illustrated with fictitious characters. Take for instance, Vishnupurâna, Râmâyana, or Bhârata. Do they contain historical veracity or are they mere allegorical representations of metaphysical truths, or are they representations of the highest ideals for the conduct of humanity, or are they mere epic poems such as those of Homer?
A. — Some historical truth is the nucleus of every Purana. The object of the Puranas is to teach mankind the sublime truth in various forms; and even if they do not contain any historical truth, they form a great authority for us in respect of the highest truth which they inculcate. Take the Râmâyana, for illustration, and for viewing it as an authority on building character, it is not even necessary that one like Rama should have ever lived. The sublimity of the law propounded by Ramayana or Bharata does not depend upon the truth of any personality like Rama or Krishna, and one can even hold that such personages never lived, and at the same time take those writings as high authorities in respect of the grand ideas which they place before mankind. Our philosophy does not depend upon any personality for its truth. Thus Krishna did not teach anything new or original to the world, nor does Ramayana profess anything which is not contained in the Scriptures. It is to be noted that Christianity cannot stand without Christ, Mohammedanism without Mohammed, and Buddhism without Buddha, but Hinduism stands independent of any man, and for the purpose of estimating the philosophical truth contained in any Purana, we need not consider the question whether the personages treated of therein were really material men or were fictitious characters. The object of the Puranas was the education of mankind, and the sages who constructed them contrived to find some historical personages and to superimpose upon them all the best or worst qualities just as they wanted to, and laid down the rules of morals for the conduct of mankind. Is it necessary that a demon with ten heads (Dashamukha) should have actually lived as stated in the Ramayana? It is the representation of some truth which deserves to be studied, apart from the question whether Dashamukha was a real or fictitious character. You can now depict Krishna in a still more attractive manner, and the description depends upon the sublimity of your ideal, but there stands the grand philosophy contained in the Puranas.
**********************************
The moral is take the message and throw away the mythology.
-z
Dear Anon.
Each purana says that the God whose
story it covers, is the most sublime. This is only to highlight the greatness of that god. That is all. Take the moral and leave the stories if you want. About authorship, again there are several views. Some say Vysasa did not write all the 18
puranas but only Brahmasutram. All
right, take Brahmasutram, and leave the puranas. Even in New
Testament, the writings of the four disciples vary from each other, at least to some extent. If you see the standard version, they have given e.g. Here instead of St. Luke, St. Mark said these, etc., etc., What to believe?
Take the message of Bible, Lord's
ten commandments, at least here, there is no variation. I have not studied Koran. May be here too there could be some internal inconsistencies. Buddha Jataka Tales tell different stories about the same incident. Take Buddha's central message. Desire the root cause of all sufferings. Leave other things.
Anonymous/Friends,
Here is an excerpt from Sri Aurobindo's Letters on Yoga:
The answer to the question depends on what value we attach to spiritual experience and to the data of other planes of consciousness, other than the physical, as also on the nature of the relations between the cosmic consciousness and the individual and collective consciousness of man. From the point of view of spiritual and occult Truth, what takes shape in the consciousness of man is a reflection and particular kind of formation, in a difficult medium, of things much greater in their light, power and beauty or in their force and range which came to it from the cosmic consciousness of which man is a limited and, in his present state of evolution, a still ignorant part. All this explanation about the genius of the race, of a consciousness of a nation creating the Gods and their forms is a very partial, somewhat superficial and in itself a misleading truth. Man's mind is not an original creator, it is an intermediary; to start creating it must receive an initiating “inspiration”, a transmission or a suggestion from the cosmic consciousness and with that it does what it can. God is, but man's conceptions of God are reflections in his own mentality, sometimes of the Divine, sometimes of other Beings and Powers and they are what his mentality can make of the suggestions that come to him, generally very partial and imperfect so long as they are still mental, so long as he has not arrived at a higher and truer, a spiritual or mystic knowledge. The Gods already exist, they are not created by man, even though he does seem to conceive them in his own image; - fundamentally, he formulates as best he can what truth about them he receives from the cosmic Reality. An artist or a bhakta may have a vision of the Gods and it may get stabilised and generalised in the consciousness of the race and in that sense it may be true that man gives their forms to the Gods; but he does not invent these forms, he records what he sees; the forms that he gives are given to him. In the “conventional” form of Krishna men have embodied what they could see of his eternal beauty and what they have seen may be true as well as beautiful, it conveys something of the form, but it is fairly certain that if there is an eternal form of that eternal beauty, it is a thousand times more beautiful than what man had as yet been able to see of it. Mother India is not a piece of earth; she is a Power, a Godhead, for all nations have such a Devi supporting their separate existence and keeping it in being. Such beings are as real and more permanently real than the men they influence, but they belong to a higher plane, are part of the cosmic consciousness and being and act here on earth by shaping the human consciousness on which they exercise their influence. It is natural for man who sees only his own consciousness individual, national or racial at work and does not see what works upon it and shapes it, to think that all is created by him and there is nothing cosmic and greater behind it. The Krishna consciousness is a reality, but if there were no Krishna, there could be no Krishna consciousness; except in arbitrary metaphysical abstractions there can be no consciousness without a Being who is conscious. It is the person who gives value and reality to the personality, he expresses himself in it and is not constituted by it. Krishna is a being, a person and it is as the Divine Person that we meet him, hear his voice, speak with him and feel his presence. To speak of the consciousness of Krishna as something separate from Krishna is an error of the mind, which is always separating the inseparable and which also tends to regard the impersonal, because it is abstract, as greater, more real and more enduring than the person. Such divisions may be useful to the mind for its own purposes, but it is not the real truth; in the real truth the being or person and its impersonality or state of being are one reality(Sri Ramakrishna says the same thing)
contd...
Folks,
Small clarification about my last post.Vivekananda doubted the context not the authoriship of Bhagavad Gita i.e if all that discussion happened between Krishna and Arjuna.
Few thoughts:
The problem with throwing away the mythology is then there will be no Bhakthi.If you do not believe in the mythology of the story of Arunachala:Coloumn of Fire; then there cannot be any Bhakthi towards Annamalai or Siva.Without the illusion of Bhakthi, Neti Neti is very difficult and almost impossible for ordinary mortals.It is like Shirdi Sai Baba asking us to develop Saburi and Shradhdha.But you need effort to develop effort.
The ONLY thing that can actually take you forward is experiences in your own life i.e the more shit you go through the quicker you are to the death(Self).That is why some aspirants invite trouble in their life be performing severe austerities and weird penances like lifting your hand all your life or I think it is Neem karoli Baba hanging around toilets to apply fresh shit of others all over his body.Life cannot get any more weird than this.As much as meterialism is bad for one; equally so is an excessive aspiration for the Self.By excessive, I mean excessive aspiration for the Self relative to your Rajas and Tamas.In cases like that I think it is better to acutally indulge in more Rajas/Tamas to balance out Sattva, Rajas and Tamas.
Weird is this creation and myriad are it's ways.
-z
Anonymous/Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on Krishna...Contd...
The historicity of Krishna is of less spiritual importance and is not essential, but it has still a considerable value. It does not seem to me that there can be any reasonable doubt that Krishna the man was not a legend or a poetic invention but actually existed upon earth and played a part in the Indian past. Two facts emerge clearly, that he was regarded as an important spiritual figure, one whose spiritual illumination was recorded in one of the Upanishads, and that he was traditionally regarded as a divine man, one worshipped after his death as a deity; this is apart from the story in the Mahabharata and the Puranas. There is no reason to suppose that the connection of his name with the development of the Bhagavata religion, an important current in the stream of Indian spirituality, was founded on a mere legend or poetic invention. The Mahabharata is a poem and not history, but it is clearly a poem founded on a great historical event, traditionally preserved in memory; some of the figures connected with it, Dhritarashtra, Parikshit, for instance, certainly existed and the story of the part played by Krishna as leader, warrior and statesman can be accepted as probable in itself and to all appearance founded on a tradition which can be given a historical value and has not the air of a myth or a sheer poetical invention. That is as much as can be positively said from the point of view of the theoretical reason as to the historic figure of the man Krishna; but in my view there is much more than that in it and I have always regarded the incarnation as a fact and accepted the historicity of Krishna as I accept the historicity of Christ.
The story of Brindavan is another matter; it does not enter into the main story of the Mahabharata and has a Puranic origin and it could be maintained that it was intended all along to have a symbolic character. At one time I accepted that explanation, but I had to abandon it afterwards; there is nothing in the Puranas that betrays any such intention. It seems to me that it is related as something that actually occurred or occurs somewhere. The Gopis are to them realities and not symbols. It was for them at the least an occult truth, and occult and symbolic are not the same thing; the symbol may be only a significant mental construction or only a fanciful invention, but the occult is a reality which is actual somewhere, behind the material scene as it were and can have its truth for the terrestrial life and its influence upon it may even embody itself there. The Lila of the Gopis seems to be conceived as something which is always going on in a divine Gokul and which projected itself in an earthly Brindavan and can always be realised and its meaning made actual in the soul. It is to be presumed that the writers of the Puranas took it as having been actually projected on earth in the life of the incarnate Krishna and it has been so accepted by the religious mind of India"(Sri Ramakrishna and countless other Great ones have validated this Truth)
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
Anonymous (Z) said:
"...As much as meterialism is bad for one; equally so is an excessive aspiration for the Self.By excessive, I mean excessive aspiration for the Self relative to your Rajas and Tamas..."
Z - what do you imply by 'excessive aspiration for the self'? what you said after that is also not clear. 'aspiration for the self' is a 'desire' to which no yardstick of the world, in terms of measuring any desire, can be applied; i.e., when it comes to 'desiring' the self, adages such as 'even nectar in excess can be harmful' aren't applicable. the more one has such a 'desire', the better (the 'limit' may be realisation itself) :-)
Friends,
An Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
M. took a little stroll near the Panchavati and bathed in the river. Then he went to the
temples of Radhakanta and Kali and prostrated himself before the images. He said to
himself: "I have heard that God has no form. Then why do I bow before these images? Is it
because Sri Ramakrishna believes in gods and goddesses with form? I don't know anything
about God, nor do I understand Him. The Master believes in images; then why shouldn't I
too, who am so insignificant a creature, accept them?"
M. looked at the image of Kali. He saw that the Divine Mother holds in Her two left hands
a man's severed head and a sword. With Her two right hands She offers boons and
reassurance to Her devotees. In one aspect She is terrible, and in another She is the ever
affectionate Mother of Her devotees. The two ideals are harmonized in Her. She is
compassionate and affectionate to Her devotees: to those who are submissive and helpless.
It is also true that She is terrible, the "Consort of Death". She alone knows why She
assumes two aspects at the same time.
M. remembered this interpretation of Kali given by the Master. He said to himself, "I have
heard that Keshab accepted Kali in Sri Ramakrishna's presence. Is this, as Keshab used to
say, the Goddess, all Spirit and Consciousness; manifesting Herself through a clay image?"
M. returned to the Master's room and sat on the floor. Sri Ramakrishna offered him some
fruit and sweets to eat.
-----------------------------------
In Autobiogrpahy of a Yogi,one of the most wonderful story is that of Master Mahasaya- in the chapter,The Blissful Devotee and his cosmic Romance.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Master:"One who thinks of God, day and night, beholds Him everywhere. It is like a man's seeing
flames on all sides after he has gazed fixedly at one flame for some time."
"But that isn't the real flame", flashed through M.'s mind.
Sri Ramakrishna, who could read a man's inmost thought, said: "One doesn't lose
consciousness by thinking of Him who is all Spirit, all Consciousness. Shivanath once
remarked that too much thinking about God confounds the brain. Thereupon I said to him,
'How can one become unconscious by thinking of Consciousness?' "
M: "Yes, sir, I realize that. It isn't like thinking of an unreal object. How can a man lose his
intelligence if he always fixes his mind on Him whose very nature is eternal Intelligence?"
MASTER (with pleasure): "It is through God's grace that you understand that. The doubts
of the mind will not disappear without His grace. Doubts do not disappear without Selfrealization.
Namaskar.
Is it suicide if a liberated person terminates his life?
(Kathamrita 1.4:)
Sri Ramakrishna — Suicide is a great sin, one will have to return to this world again and again and suffer its trials and tribulations.
“Even so if a person terminates his life after having the vision of the Lord, it is not suicide. There is no harm in giving up the body that way. Some people terminate their lives after attaining jnana. When a gold image has been cast in an earthen mould, the mould may be preserved, or may be cracked and thrown away.
“Many years ago, a boy used to come here from Barahnagar. He was about twenty years old. His name was Gopal Sen. When he would come here, he used to experience such deep emotions that Hriday had to hold him later he fell and broke his limbs. The boy suddenly touched my feet and said, ‘Sir, I shall not be able to come here any more. So I take your leave.’ A few days later I heard that he had given up his body.
(CVR: Sometimes we may be scared by what God demands from us. But the true devotee takes his way like a burning light.)
s,
Yes,today is the jayanti(The second in this Year 2010!) of our beloved and the Kummi song is one of the finest ever composed.
"Refrain
Girls, the feet of Lord Ramana sing!
Seek and dance in joy!
Join together and dance in joy!
Text
1. Leaving his abode of bliss,
In compassion he came down (to earth) at Tiruchuli,
Not content to remain there,
Eagerly he came to Arunagiri.
(Ramana Guru)
2. To the loving devotees who eagerly go to him at Virupaksha cave,
He, with his look of grace,
Appears sweet as sugarcane
And makes them rejoice.
(Ramana Guru)
3. By the grace of God manifesting as light in Sonagiri,
He cut off the impurities of individuation,
Illusion and action,
And revels in the bliss of the Self.
(Ramana Guru)
The saturday parayana is one of my favourites-so sweet and accessible.
Namaskar.
S,
I am talking about balanced evolution.Here and there all through history and mythology we see and hear about souls with excessive imbalance of Sattva, Rajo and Tamas.Excessive aspiration for the Self is good if born out knowledge/experience but not out of incapacity or ambition or societal morals and ideals or premature dispassion.
You will know when it approaches you.I have actually run away from it out of fear.It is like a boy wanting to ride a plane.If actually taken into a plane and the engine started he may faint or run away.
The intelligent knows when to take a step back.The first secret to success is to know your strengths and weaknesses and the next is do you understand the goal? In the story posted by Sankar Ganesh about Manmathanatha Ganguly did not Vivekananda categorically insist on a step by step approach lest it should take more the time.Here is the clipping:
"In offering the mental worship, first of all meditate on the feet, then slowly go upwards till you come to the face, and then meditate on the face. When meditation will be deep, there will he no hands or feet. As long as you see the form, the nirvikalpa plane cannot be reached. But do not hurry. You must go slowly and across the stages one by one. Otherwise it may take a much longer time."
This is where the Guru comes in.That is why I have always insisted Advaita should go back behind the gates of Ahsrams and into Caves and should be restricted to the club of ripe souls. Bhakti and Karma should be encouraged.
-z
S.,
Apropos to Arvind's post, you have been exposed now :) Reminds me of what Bhagavan said of one Courtallam Swami, in "Living by words of Bhagavan". Annamalai Swami says:
"Some ppl thot that he was a rather arrogant man but Bhagavan ocne spoke to me abt hin in glowing terms - 'He is a good devotee but he does not show his devotiion externally, The devotion is all inside. He hides it so well that most people think that he is not a good devotee. I like this kind of devotion very much' " :)
I was about to post as to why people are exerting their views on you. How does it matter to our sadhana whether u blv in god or not? Neway, saw Arvind's post - dint read any of ur further posts - i thot it was irrelevant :)
salutations to all:
maneesha: laughed a lot on reading your comment :-))). arvind is a very good friend and he, in a rather unanticipated way, let me 'up' (he is too good to let me 'down') :-)))
folks: the ramaNAsramam website has 3 short videos on the jayanti. do have a look...
Thoughts
grow like clinging vines that choke the living presence.
Truly being here is being unknown, unknowable,
unadorned. Being here is absence of doubting or
affirming thoughts about myself. It is the absence of
me! Thoughts that arise about me are just thoughts, with
their enormous power to obscure clarity.
Toni Packer
Waking Life is a movie that stays with you.
This morning I woke up and lay in bed for a while. It
was Monday. I thought of all I had to do: get up, wash
face, take vitamins, make coffee, defrost bagel, go
downstairs and get paper, eat breakfast and read paper,
shower, shave, get dressed, and meet the workday. It
seemed infinitely wearisome. But then I finally did get
up and the day started to unreel on its own accord.
Surprises kept happening. I had cereal instead of a
bagel. I did last night's dishes before getting the
paper. I found time to do a bit of yoga to stretch my
aching back.
In other words, the day unreeled just like a dream,
beyond volition. This is waking life. Things just keep
happening. There is no need to keep up an illusion of
control, nor is there a need to keep up an illusion that
it is happening to anyone in particular. Yes, you
continue to feel emotions and experience things like
pain and pleasure, loneliness and happiness, backaches
and heartaches, but these are just happening too and
will keep on unreeling with everything else. If you
watch long enough they all turn into clouds in the end
DH
Friends,
ThAyumAnavar's paripoorNAnandam has some of the most impassioned verses of Great yearning that carry the power of ushering in the Divine Presence.No translation can capture the magic of the Original Tamil.The following verse is typical:
சந்ததமும் எனதுசெயல் நினதுசெயல் யானெனுந்
தன்மைநினை யன்றியில்லாத்
தன்மையால் வேறலேன் வேதாந்த சித்தாந்த்த
சமரச சுபாவமிதுவே
இந்தநிலை தெளியநான் நெக்குருகிவாடிய
இயற்கைதிரு வுளமறியுமே
இன்நிலையி லேசற் றிருக்கஎன் றால்மடமை
இதசத்ரு வாகவந்து
சிந்தைகுடி கொள்ளுதே மலமாயை கன்மந்
திரும்புமோ தொடுவழக்காய்ச்
சென்மம்வரு மோஎனவும் யோசிக்கு தேமனது
சிரத்தைஎனும் வாளும்உதவிப்
பந்தமற மெய்ஞ்ஞானதீரமும் தந்தெனைப்
பாதுகாத் தருள்செய்குவாய்
பார்க்குமிட மெங்குமொருநீக்கமற நிறைகின்ற
பரிபூர ணானந்தமே!
Forever,My deed is your Deed,
The self I,not apart from your being,am no other (than you).
This, the truth of Vedanta -
Siddhanta Samarasa;
To realize this,
How I pined and melted
Thine Grace knoweth.
In this state I seek to be for awhile.
But, alas! Ignorance seizes my thought
As an inveterate enemy.
Will mala, maya and karma depart?
Will birth in uninterrupted succession be my lot?
Thus is my mind in doubts tossed.
Do Thou grant the sword of faith.
Do Thou grant the courage of wisdom true
To sever the fetters of desire.
Do Thou grant thy Grace and redeem me!
Oh! Thou who filleth all visible space
In unbroken continuity!
Thou, the Bliss that is Perfect Full!
-----------------------------------
To recite the verses in Tamil is to invoke the Grace instantaneously.Such is the beauty and power of these verses.People wondering what Self surrender is can truly experience it in this wonderful verse.
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Nice poem from Tayumanavar. It is
interesting that he stresses the
essential need of sraddha. Sri Bhagavan also said that Sraddha is
the most important for self inquriy. He also said gavanam, attention. Devaraja Mudaliar quotes the following verses of Tayumanavar, as often recommended by Sri Bhagavan. (1.) Ahara Bhuvanam - Chidambara Rahasyam, Verses 15 to 23. (2) Payappuli - Verse 14. (3) Mandalathin, Verses 8 to 11. and (4) Sukavari, Verse 12
Friends,
Yesterday it was Sri Bhagavan's Jayanti.Today is Christmas eve.A dear friend sent me this link.What a Buoyant and inspiring performance!Please visit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE&feature=aso
Just a couple of Immortal sayings of Lord Jesus,the Christ that never fails to inspire:
1.Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.
2.Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.
3.What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.
Wish you all a beautiful and joyous Christmas.
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
Yes,Sraddha is indispensable for spiritual growth,whatever be the path.Sraddha should be translated as Diligence and not as faith.I had brushed up that translation of Thayumanavar and should have corrected it from faith to Diligence.That was a translation by B natarajan and I find that it is not quite accurate nor faithful(!);yet it serves the purpose.
Namaskar.
Source: http://www.theylivedwithgod.info/kpg.htm
###########
Lead me by the hand
It was the night of 28 June 1905. Kalipada lay ill at his home in Calcutta. Swami Premananda had come from Belur Math to be at the side of this householder disciple whom the Master had called 'his own'. Suddenly the Swami saw Kalipada’s face light up. He stretched out his hand as if to someone in front of him and breathed his last. Hearing of this incident Swami Adbhutananda remarked, "Sri Ramakrishna came for him at the moment of his death. Baburam (Swami Premananda) clearly perceived it. All the promises of the Master are being fulfilled." Many years earlier, in the very presence of Latu, Kalipada had requested the Master thus, "When I leave the world I shall see terrible darkness all around and be filled with terror. You must lead me by the hand holding a lantern in the other. I shall always be with you then." "All right, your wish will be fulfilled," the Master had replied. Kalipada’s life is one more testimony to the truth that an incarnation is the physical manifestation of Divine Grace. By a touch or a word, the incarnation imparts spirituality and transforms the character of even those considered hopeless by society. Kalipada’s life story gives the assurance that there is hope for all that no one need to despair because of his past. With faith and perseverance all can surely succeed in the spiritual quest.
###########
Thanks. Happy Christmas.
Dear Sankar Ganesh,
This happened in the life of Girish
Chandra Gosh also, a durachari, drunkard by a great dramatist. SRK
asked him to spend 1/2 hr. three times on everyday on dhyana. GC refused. Then he said, at least 1/2
hr. per day. GC said: No Master,
I do not want to promise and fail do. SRK then said: Please give me
power of attorney. I shall do it for you. You should submit your body and mind and ego to me. I shall do dhyana for you. This made GC to accept. Thereafter, whenever he touched alcohol, he could not make up his mind to consume. He could not use foul language. He could not lust women.
Evey time, he said: This body and mind is my guru's. How can I do without telling him. He had no courage to tell him either. Slowly he got reformed. The desirelessness made him genuinely go towards bhakti and sadhana and improve over a period of time.
Dear Ravi,
Yes. Sri Bhagavan has used sirthai,
uL-nokku, gavanam, etc., in His
works and conversations.
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of sri Ramakrishna,the conversation involves Dr Sarkar who used to question sri Ramakrishna in a challenging fashion,often leading to some very interesting conversation.In this episode,he met more than his match in Girish Ghosh :
Master:"You know I am a fool. I know nothing. Then who is it that says all these things? I say to
the Divine Mother: 'O Mother, I am the machine and Thou art the Operator. I am the house
and Thou art the Indweller. I am the chariot and Thou art the Charioteer. I do as Thou
makest me do; I speak as Thou makest me speak; I move as Thou makest me move. It is not
I! It is not I! It is all Thou! It is all Thou!' Hers is the glory; we are only Her instruments.
Once Radha, to prove her chastity, carried on her head a pitcher filled with water. The
pitcher had a thousand holes, but not a drop of water spilled. People began to praise her,
saying, 'Such a chaste woman the world will never see again!' Then Radha said to them:
Why do you praise me? Say: "Glory unto Krishna! Hail Krishna!" I am only His handmaid.'
"Once in that strange mood of mine I placed my foot on Vijay's chest. You know how
greatly I respect him-and I placed my foot on his body! What do you say to that?"
DOCTOR: "But now you should be careful."
MASTER (with folded hands): "What can I do? I become completely unconscious in that
mood, then I do not know at all what I am doing."
DOCTOR: "You should be careful. No use folding your hands now and expressing regret!"
MASTER: "Can I do anything myself in that mood? What do you think of this state? If you
think it is a hoax, then I should say that your study of 'science' and all that is bosh!"
DOCTOR: "Now listen, sir! Would I come to see you so often if I thought it all a hoax?
You know that I neglect many other duties in order to come here. I cannot visit many
patients, for I spend six or seven hours at a stretch here."
MASTER: "Once I said to Mathur Babu: 'Don't think that I have achieved my desired end
because you, a rich man, show me respect. It matters very little to me whether you obey me
or not.' Of course you must remember that a mere man can do nothing, it is God alone who
makes one person obey another. Man is straw and dust before the power of God."
DOCTOR: "Do you think I shall obey you because a certain fisherman obeyed you?…
Undoubtedly I show you respect; I show you respect as a man."
MASTER: "Do I ask you to show me respect?"
continued...
Friends,
The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...
Dr. Sarkar and Girish
GIRISH: "Does he ask you to show him respect?"
DOCTOR (to the Master): "What are you saying? Do you explain it as the will of God?"
MASTER: "What else can it be? What can a man do before the will of God? Arjuna said to
Sri Krishna on the battle-field of Kurukshetra 'I will not fight. It is impossible for me to kill
my own kinsmen.' Sri Krishna replied: 'Arjuna, you will have to fight. Your very nature
will make you fight.' Then Sri Krishna revealed to Arjuna that all the men on the battlefield
were already dead.
"Once some Sikhs came to the Kali temple at Dakshineswar. They said: 'You see, the
leaves of the aswattha tree are moving. That too is due to the will of God.' Without His will
not even a leaf can move."
DOCTOR: "If everything is done by the will of God, then why do you chatter? Why do you
talk so much to bring knowledge to others?"
MASTER: "He makes me talk; therefore I talk. 'I am the machine and He is the Operator.' "
DOCTOR: "You say that you are the machine. That's all right. Or keep quiet, knowing that
everything is God."
GIRISH (to the doctor): "Whatever you may think, sir, the truth is that we act because He
makes us act. Can anyone take a single step against the Almighty Will?"
Free will and God's will
DOCTOR: "But God has also given us free will. I can think of God, or not, as I like."
GIRISH: "You think of God or do some good work because you like to. Really it is not
you who do these things, but your liking of them that makes you do so."
DOCTOR: "Why should that be so? I do these things as my duty."
GIRISH: "Even then it is because you like to do your duty."
DOCTOR: "Suppose a child is being burnt. From a sense of duty I rush to save it."
GIRISH: "You feel happy to save the child; therefore you rush into the fire. It is your
happiness that drives you to the action. A man eats opium being tempted by such relishes as
puffed rice or fried potatoes." (Laughter.)
MASTER: "A man must have some kind of faith before he undertakes a work. Further, he
feels joy when he thinks of it. Only then does he set about performing the work. Suppose a
jar of gold coins is hidden underground. First of all a man must have faith that the jar of
gold coins is there. He feels joy at the thought of the jar. Then he begins to dig. As he
removes the earth he hears a metallic sound. That increases his joy. Next he sees a corner of
the jar. That gives him more joy. Thus his joy is ever on the increase. Standing on the porch
of the Kali temple, I have watched the ascetics preparing their smoke of hemp. I have seen
their faces beaming with joy in anticipation of the smoke."
DOCTOR: "But take the case of fire. It gives both heat and light. The light no doubt
illumines objects, but the heat burns the body. Likewise, it is not an unadulterated joy that
one reaps from the performance duty. Duty has its painful side too."
M. (to Girish): "As the proverb goes: 'If the stomach gets food, then the back can bear a few
blows from the host.' There is joy in sorrow also."
GIRISH (to the doctor): "Duty is dry."
DOCTOR: "Why so?"
GIRISH: "Then it is pleasant." (All laugh.)
...Continued....
Friends,
'The Illusion of Free will' in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...
"M: "Again we come to the point that one likes opium for the sake of the relishes that are
served with it."
GIRISH (to the doctor): "Duty must be pleasant; or why do you perform it?"
DOCTOR: "The mind is inclined that way."
M. (to Girish): "That wretched inclination draws the mind. If you speak of the compelling
power of inclination, then where is free will?"
DOCTOR: "I do not say that the will is absolutely free. Suppose a cow is tied with a rope.
She is free within the length of that rope, but when she feels the pull of the rope-"
MASTER: "Jadu Mallick also gave that illustration. (To the younger Naren) Is it mentioned
in some English book?
God alone is the agent
(To the doctor) "Look here. If a man truly believes that God alone does everything, that He
is the Operator and man the machine, then such a man is verily liberated in life. 'Thou
workest Thine own work; men only call it theirs.' Do you know what it is like? Vedanta
philosophy gives an illustration. Suppose you are cooking rice in a pot, with potato, eggplant,
and other vegetables. After a while the potatoes, eggplant, rice, and the rest begin to
jump about in the pot. They seem to say with pride: 'We are moving! We are jumping!' The
children see it and think the potatoes, egg-plant, and rice are alive and so they jump that
way. But the elders, who know, explain to the children that the vegetables and the rice are
not alive; they jump not of themselves, but because of the fire under the pot; if you remove
the burning wood from the hearth, then they will move no more. Likewise the pride of man,
that he is the doer, springs from ignorance. Men are powerful because of the power of God.
All becomes quiet when that burning wood is taken away. The puppets dance well on the
stage when pulled by a wire, but they cannot move when the wire snaps.
"A man will cherish the illusion that he is the doer as long as he has not seen God, as long
as he has not touched the Philosopher's Stone. So long will he know the distinction between
his good and bad actions. This awareness of distinction is due to God's maya; and it is
necessary for the purpose of running His illusory world. But a man can realize God if he
takes shelter under His vidyamaya and follows the path of righteousness. He who knows
God and realizes Him is able to go beyond maya. He who firmly believes that God alone is
the Doer and he himself a mere instrument is a jivanmukta, a free soul though living in a
body. I said this to Keshab Chandra Sen."
GIRISH (to the doctor): "How do you know that free will exists?"
DOCTOR: "Not by reasoning; I feel it."
GIRISH: "In that case I may say that others and I feel the reverse. We feel that we are
controlled by another." (All laugh.)
Namaskar.
It is very easy to solve the question of man's Freewill.When man's vasanas are fully understood and given a set of circumstances it is determined what choice he will make.The illusion of Freewill arises only when Man doesn't uderstand himself completely.
The more interesting question is does God have Freewill presuming that God exists in the first place?This is a difficult question because it is difficult to pinpoint what is God in the first place?Unless one can define God the above question cannot be attempted.If God is 'The Unknown' or 'Fear and Hope' or 'The Totality/Immanent' what to speak of will.Let's not hurt the Bhaktha.Let's say God is the Unlimited.How can the Unlimited have Freewill?
Even more interesting question is predestiny.For eg: if you are destined to die in an accident at a certain age.If it is all predestined God simply does not exist; even if he exists he does not matter.If he does not matter he is as good as non-existent;like the unchanging Padam.But in Time causation exists which means after the First Cause it is all predestined.To talk about out of Time is non-sense.Some saints can manipulate the laws of Creation to change prarabdha in rare cases.But this is only 'himma' to encourage Faith in the devotee; not a major anamoly.
But God does exist.He is part of you and he does help you just like Christmas Santa. When you grow up you still see Christmas Santa and will defend him for the benfit of others yet to grow up.
sorry that was Z
But God does exist.He is part of you and he does help you just like Christmas Santa. When you grow up you still see Christmas Santa and will defend him for the benfit of others yet to grow up.
That example sounds so infantile!
glow
Anonymous,
".Let's not hurt the Bhaktha.Let's say God is the Unlimited."
Sounds like follow the Rabbit!Friend,do you think that the Bhakta is a Dunce and is wallowing in his toy world!Problem is in the thinking that Santa will come only during Christmas and hand over some gifts that you do not have.Truth is that all that one receives,good and bad(on account of immaturity of the mind,this difference of Good and Bad)is coming through Santa in different forms.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Seeing God in everything
"There was a monastery in a certain place. The monks residing there went out daily to beg
their food. One day a monk, while out for his alms, saw a landlord beating a man
mercilessly. The compassionate monk stepped in and asked the landlord to stop. But the
landlord was filled with anger and turned his wrath against the innocent monk. He beat the
monk till he fell unconscious on the ground. Someone reported the matter to the monastery.
The monks ran to the spot and found their brother lying there. Four or five of them carried
him back and laid him on a bed. He was still unconscious. The other monks sat around him
sad at heart; some were fanning him. Finally someone suggested that he should be given a
little milk to drink. When it was poured into his mouth he regained consciousness. He
opened his eyes and looked around. One of the monks said, 'Let us see whether he is fully
conscious and can recognize us.' Shouting into his ear, he said, 'Revered sir, who is giving
you milk?' 'Brother,' replied the holy man in a low voice, 'He who beat me is now giving
me milk.'
I have already posted the 'Mahut' Narayana story.If we understand it,we find that every point in time,we are guided,only if we learn to give up our mental Fixations.Then we will know whether God Exists or not.
Namaskar.
So many hear, "we are the self right now" and say; ya but.... and then continue to seek and search for the Self.
Go back and meditate on those words alone before you go on. Realize that, at first, by pure faith in the masters words.
What is it that is looking through your eyes reading these words? You! You are that right now.
m.a.w.
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel Of Sri Ramakrishna:
MASTER (to Pratap): "I hear that some members of the Samaj have quarrelled with you
about the altar. But they are most insignificant persons-mere nobodies.
(To the devotees): "People like Pratap and Amrita are like good conchshells, which give out
a loud sound. And the rest, about whom you hear so much, don't give out any sound at all."
(All laugh.)
PRATAP: "Speaking of sounds, even such a worthless thing as a mangostone makes a
sound!"
MASTER (to Pratap): "One can very well understand the inner feeling of a teacher of your
Brahmo Samaj by hearing his preaching. Once I went to a meeting of a Hari Sabha. The
preacher of the day was a pundit named Samadhyayi. And can you imagine what he said?
He said in the course of his sermon: 'God is dry. We must make Him sweet and fresh with
our love and devotion.' I was stunned to hear these words. Then I was reminded of a story.
A boy once said: 'At my uncle's house there are many horses. Oh, yes! His whole cow-shed
is full of them.' Now if it was really a cow-shed, then horses could not be kept there.
Possibly he had only cows. What did people think on hearing such an incoherent statement?
They believed that there were surely no such animals as horses in the shed." (Laughter)
A DEVOTEE: "True, sir, there were not only no horses, but possibly there were also no
cows!"
(Laughter)
MASTER: "Just fancy, to describe God, who is of the very nature of Love and Bliss, as
dry! It only proves that the man has never experienced what God is like.
-----------------------------------
Sceptics may think that the sweetness that a devotee experiences comes from 'Emotions'(Like Pandit samadhyayi),that it is an 'added component';The devotee alone knows that it comes from God.
Namaskar.
Ravi,
I have zero interest in hurting or denouncing anybody's views.If there is anybody who can convince me otherwise I am always open to learn.That is the whole point of these blogs.Yes all I have written is only from what I have read and extrapolation. I can't repeat everytime that it is not from my experience.If I have any one of these final experiences or anywhere near I would n't be hanging around these blogs; would I?I know the topics that I have raised even the highest saints will struggle.They take you right to the heart of everything.Even the Maha Sriman Narayana will not have an explaination.If he has there will be no creation.Papaji tried his very best risking death to find out but to no avail.It is logically impossible to have an explaination for the why of creation.From this basic question comes the questions of Predestiny and Freewill and all question follow.
The examples of the beaten yogi and mahut narayana come under God is Immanent i.e everything is God.I have written from the experiences i.e final views of Bhaktas like Mira Bai, Kabir, Papaji, Papa Ramdass etc.Statements such as Everything is Narayana or God is Absolute/Immanent is still only an extrapolation or in common parlance a way of saying things but not finality.There must be something other than Narayana to say everything is Narayana.When everything is Narayana nothing can be said and hence the extrapolation.If everything is predestined tell me what is the use/role of God?Saints like Ramana, Robert Adams have clearly said everything is predestined.
Bhagawan Ramana also said that all the mythology lokas(Kailash,Vaikunttha etc) and gods exist only as long as the personal I exists meaning they too are concepts like a wall or a rock.Once he remarked there is life too in these granite slabs.
I love being a Bhaktha and I wish I will be one.Things will be easier, simple and enjoyable.It is not a choice.There was never a choice about anything.Like I have already said I respect all views as everybody is at a unique point of evolution.I am very sure that one day both you and me and everyone will talk to God just like Ramakrishna but that is myself playing myself.From here that is how it looks and I am sure when there; God simply will exist.But one cannot compare now to then.Both stages are disjointed like the seed , when it grows to a plant and to a tree.
-z
GEMS OF BHAGAVAN by A. DEVARAJA MUDALIAR
FATE AND FREEWILL
FREEWILL AND DESTINY ARE EVER EXISTENT.
Destiny is the result of past action; it concerns the body. Let the body act as may suit it. Why are you concerned about it? Why do you pay attention to it? Freewill and destiny last as long as the body lasts. But jnana transcends both. The Self is beyond knowledge and ignorance. Whatever happens, happens as the result of one’s past actions, of divine will and of other factors.
There are only two ways to conquer destiny or be independent of it. One is to enquire for whom is this destiny, and discover that only the ego is bound by destiny and not the Self, and that the ego is non-existent.
The other way is to kill the ego by completely surrendering to the Lord, by realizing one’s helplessness and saying all the time, ‘Not I, but Thou Oh Lord’ and giving up all sense of ‘I’ and ‘mine’, and leaving it to the Lord to do what he likes with you. Complete effacement of the ego is necessary to conquer destiny, whether you achieve this effacement through Selfenquiry or bhakti marga (path of devotion).
Everything is predetermined. But a man is always free not to identify himself with the body, and not to be affected by the pleasures or pains consequent on the body’s activities. Those alone who have no knowledge of the Source whence fate and freewill arise, will dispute which of them can conquer the other. Those who have realized their Self, which is the Source of both fate and freewill have left such disputes behind, and will have nothing more to do with them.
Success and failure are due to prarabdha karma, and not to willpower or the lack of it. One should try to gain equipoise of mind under all circumstances. That is willpower.
GEMS OF BHAGAVAN by A. DEVARAJA MUDALIAR
SURRENDER
What is bhakti? To think of God. That means only one thought prevails to the exclusion of all other thoughts. That thought is of God, which is the Self, or it is the self surrendered unto God. When He has taken you up, nothing else will assail you. The absence of thought is bhakti. It is also mukti.
Bhakti is Jnana Mata, i.e., the mother of jnana.
Clemens,
There is a contradiction in the below two statements that you have posted:
Everything is predetermined. But a man is always free not to identify himself with the body, and not to be affected by the pleasures or pains consequent on the body’s activities.
Everything is predetermined means one is never free to break out of illusion before the predetermined date.
Dear Clemens,
Sri Bhagavan says the same thing
in Sri Arunachala Panchratnam, Verse 5.
He, who with Heart to you surrendered,
Behold for ever You alone,
Sees all things as forms of Yo
And loves and serves them as none other
Than the Self, O Arunachala,
Triummphs because he is immersed
In You whose being is pure bliss.
Love of God blossoms into surrender. And that surrender to
God, enables one to love and serve
everyone as non other than God.
He triumphs because he is immersed in Arunachala or God or the Self, whose being is pure anandam.
A Brahma Jnani is simultaneously
an ardent bhakta. A totally surrendered person [to godhead]
attains Brahma Jnanam.
Love [surrender] and Jnanam, go together.
z,
Friend,Please read this post with my disclaimer,that What I am posting is not about you nor reflects your position.
I recall how 'Follow The Rabbit'(Do not know if it is you)made a statement that UG destroyed the 'Illusion' of 'Santa Claus' forever ,how one could never bring oneself into believing again,however one may wish to.
I know this 'problem' first hand and am aware of the damaging potential of this sort of an approach.What it does is that while it seems to admit that it does not posit what Truth is,it seems to confirm to one,what it is not!It takes away what little Light one may have without giving the needed clarity to fill the vacuum.This sort of stunts growth by robbing one of spontaneity,simplicity and openness.
People who get sidetracked by this sort of Half Truth,often struggle to regain their lost momentum and rhythm and some,over a period of time become crippled and paralysed.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Hazra entered the room and sat with the devotees on the floor. Hazra repeated now and
then, "Soham! Soham!" "I am He! I am He!"
To Latu and other devotees he often said: "What does one gain by worshipping God with
offerings? That is merely giving Him things that are His already." He had said this once to
Narendra.
The Master spoke to him.
MASTER: "I explained to Latu who the object of the devotee's worship is."
HAZRA: "The devotee really prays to his own Self."
MASTER: "What you say is a very lofty thought. The aim of spiritual discipline, of
chanting God's name and glories, is to realize just that. A man attains everything when he
discovers his true Self in himself. The object of sādhanāis to realize that. That also is the
purpose of assuming a human body. One needs the clay mould as long as the gold image
has not been cast; but when the image is made, the mould is thrown away. The body may
be given up after the realization of God.
"God is not only inside us; He is both inside and outside. The Divine Mother showed me in
the Kali temple that everything is Chinmaya, the Embodiment of Spirit; that it is She who
has become all this―the image, myself, the utensils of worship, the door-sill, the marble
floor. Everything is indeed Chinmaya.
"The aim of prayer, of spiritual discipline, of chanting the name and glories of God, is to
realize just that. For that alone a devotee loves God. These youngsters are on a lower level;
they haven't yet reached a high spiritual state. They are following the path of bhakti. Please
don't tell them such things as 'I am He'."
Like the mother bird brooding over her chicks, Sri Ramakrishna was alert to protect his
devotees."
-----------------------------------
You have also mentioned in your mail "When you grow up you still see Christmas Santa and will defend him for the benfit of others yet to grow up".It looks similiar to what Sri Ramakrishna has said above,yet it is not the same.Just how is it Different?I would like to have your views on this.
I also appreciate your considerate nature and sensitivity to other's feelings.However,Please feel free to express what you feel is true.
Namaskar.
Sorry Clemens that comment was by me Z
salutations to all:
Anonymous:
when you pointed out something like a contradiction in bhagavAn's statement (and quoted by clemens here), was your action an exercise of 'free will' or an incident of 'pre-destination'? think before you answer :-)
Clemens & others:
clemens quoted bhagavAn "The absence of thought is bhakti. It is also mukti"... it seems quite clear that in bhagavAn's scheme of things, bhakti & mukti are one and the same, and if that's the 'end', the 'means' is vichAra (hahahahaha). the only genuine effort we make in the day towards 'surrender' is the time(s) when we willingly/ unwillingly engage in trying self-enquiry :-))) our prayers or japa or talking about god or listening to discourses is NOT bhakti. these are merely remote attempts to bhakti, and the sooner we rid ourselves of the illusion of we being bhaktAs, the better for our sAdhanA :-). btw, my love for tEvAra padhikangaL is not much different from my love for mathematics; i love those wonderful songs but don't recite them with any conceptions of bhakti. why i like them, i don't know, nor i wish to know :-)
Clemens,There is a contradiction in the below two statements that you have posted: Everything is predetermined. But a man is always free not to identify himself with the body, and not to be affected by the pleasures or pains consequent on the body’s activities.
Everything is predetermined means one is never free to break out of illusion before the predetermined date.
Dear z., to whom belongs predetermination? There must be someone who says: I want it this way but not that way.
Predetermination exists for the mind. If there is no mind there is no predetermination any longer. The same is true for free will.
I think this is the meaning of Bhagavans saying.
We often forget that none of our ideas has a counterpart in reality. Ideas don't exist in an objective way. There is no "predetermination" or "free will" existing somewhere in the universe, separated from us. Reality is as it is - it happens. We always need to go back to the thinker of things. He is responsible of what mind invents.
The thinker, z., is something like that: Imagine someone who tears to pieces a sheet of paper. Afterwards you may try to stick the pieces together but in the end it is absolutely impossible to have the paper in a state as before. That is what man does every day with this world. Every day he tears to pieces the oneness of creation and tries to make sense of this pieces. It is as well impossible. The sages knew that. They produced ideas only to help the people to understand the nature of reality.
Folks,
http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2008/05/is-world-real.html
The following is a clipping from the above post:
In Bhagavan’s teachings there is usually a distinction made between God and Brahman. Iraivan, the Tamil word used here for God, corresponds approximately to Iswara, the generic Sanskrit term for the personal God who supervises the activities of the world. God, the world and the jivas (individual souls) arise and subsist together, but they are not, according to Bhagavan, fundamentally real entities since they are not permanent. Eventually, they all merge into Brahman, the impersonal absolute and unchanging reality, and disappear.
When the world is seen as a separate entity by the jiva, there is also a God who manages the affairs of that world. When the jiva no longer exists, the world and God also cease to exist. An objection could therefore be raised to this verse which says that the world does not exist in the perspective of God. Bhagavan would normally say that the world does not exist in Brahman, but it does exist in the perspective of God.
Sadhu Om has recorded an incident in which Bhagavan himself queried Muruganar about the vocabulary used in this verse:
The Tamil word Iraivan is usually understood as meaning God, the Lord of this world, and as Bhagavan has elsewhere explained, the trinity of soul, world and their Lord will always appear to co-exist in maya, and thus the apparent world does exist in the view of its apparent Lord, God.
Therefore, on seeing this verse, Bhagavan remarked, ‘Who said that there is no world in God’s view?’, but when the author, Sri Muruganar, explained that he had used the word in the sense of the Supreme Brahman, Sri Bhagavan accepted this meaning and approved the verse. (Guru Vachaka Kovai, tr. Sadhu Om, p. 8.)
From the above clipping it is very clear that 'Atma Vichara' and 'Surrender' are mutually exclusive.The position of Bhagawan on 'Personal God' is very clear.
My question in the previous comments was what is the relation between 'predestiny' and 'Personal God'.Predestiny and 'Personal God' are mutually exclusive.Predestiny follows from causation.Jiva can see causation within the limits of his senses.Beyond his senses too it is only causation.Everything is causation on a grand scale.Becuase of his limited senses he cannot see this Grand Causation and invents Personal God.When his limited senses achieve super human power he can see the Grand causation and announces to the rest of the Jivas that it is all 'Predestined'.Ofcourse so far all discussion is in Time.
-z
I thought that Brahman and God are identical. God (Ishvara) signifies Brahman's power over maya. The providence that guides the events in the world and creatures lives. When seen undifferentiated is Brahman. But I didn't get the impression that God exists seperate from Brahman, but is totally the power of Brahman, the same grace felt in a sage's presence. I didn't think God is differentiated, even Ishvara. God, Guru and Self are the same, like that phrase. So surrender to God, is surrender of oneself to Brahman, that is how i took it.
Friends,
"When I think of the
Supreme Being as inactive - neither creating nor preserving nor destroying -, I call Him
Brahman or Purusha, the Impersonal God. When I think of Him as active - creating,
preserving, and destroying -, I call Him Sakti or Maya or Prakriti, the Personal God. But
the distinction between them does not mean a difference. The Personal and the Impersonal
are the same thing, like milk and its whiteness, the diamond and its lustre, the snake and its
wriggling motion. It is impossible to conceive of the one without the other. The Divine
Mother and Brahman are one."-Sri Ramakrishna.
Friends,
Here is an Excerpt from Swami Vivekananda's Bhakti Yoga:
Wherever His name is spoken, that very place is holy. How much more so is the man who speaks His name, and with what veneration ought we to approach that man out of whom comes to us spiritual truth! Such great teachers of spiritual truth are indeed very few in number in this world, but the world is never altogether without them. They are always the fairest flowers of human life —
अहेतुकदयासिन्धुः — "the ocean ofmercy without any motive". आचार्यं मां विजानीयात् — "Know the Guru to be Me", says Shri Krishna in the Bhagavata.
The moment the world is absolutely bereft of these, it becomes a hideous hell and hastens on to its destruction.
Higher and nobler than all ordinary ones are another set of teachers, the Avatâras of Ishvara, in the world. They can transmit spirituality with a touch, even with a mere wish. The lowest and the most degraded characters become in one second saints at their command. They are the Teachers of all teachers, the highest manifestations of God through man. We cannot see God except through them. We cannot help worshipping them; and indeed they are the only ones whom we are bound to worship.
continued....
Friends,
Swami Vivekananda's Bhakti Yoga Continued...
"No man can really see God except through these human manifestations. If we try to see God otherwise, we make for ourselves a hideous caricature of Him and believe the caricature to be no worse than the original. There is a story of an ignorant man who was asked to make an image of the God Shiva, and who, after days of hard struggle, manufactured only the image of a monkey. So whenever we try to think of God as He is in His absolute perfection, we invariably meet with the most miserable failure, because as long as we are men, we cannot conceive Him as anything higher than man. The time will come when we shall transcend our human nature and know Him as He is; but as long as we are men, we must worship Him in man and as man. Talk as you may, try as you may, you cannot think of God except as a man. You may deliver great intellectual discourses on God and on all things under the sun, become great rationalists and prove to your satisfaction that all these accounts of the Avataras of God as man are nonsense. But let us come for a moment to practical common sense. What is there behind this kind of remarkable intellect? Zero, nothing, simply so much froth. When next you hear a man delivering a great intellectual lecture against this worship of the Avataras of God, get hold of him and ask what his idea of God is, what he understands by "omnipotence", "omnipresence", and all similar terms, beyond the spelling of the words. He really means nothing by them; he cannot formulate as their meaning any idea unaffected by his own human nature; he is no better off in this matter than the man in the street who has not read a single book. That man in the street, however, is quiet and does not disturb the peace of the world, while this big talker creates disturbance and misery among mankind. Religion is, after all, realisation, and we must make the sharpest distinction between talk; and intuitive experience. What we experience in the depths of our souls is realisation. Nothing indeed is so uncommon as common sense in regard to this matter.
Two kinds of men do not worship God as man — the human brute who has no religion, and the Paramahamsa who has risen beyond all the weaknesses of humanity and has transcended the limits of his own human nature. To him all nature has become his own Self. He alone can worship God as He is. Here, too, as in all other cases, the two extremes meet. The extreme of ignorance and the other extreme of knowledge — neither of these go through acts of worship. The human brute does not worship because of his ignorance, and the Jivanmuktas (free souls) do not worship because they have realised God in themselves. Being between these two poles of existence, if any one tells you that he is not going to worship God as man, take kindly care of that man; he is, not to use any harsher term, an irresponsible talker; his religion is for unsound and empty brains."
-----------------------------------Namaskar.
the trick has been played
and a human is born
the vast appearing as a speck
travel well, dear speck, travel well
live love laugh and be happy
instead of a gun
pick up a rake or a hoe or a shovel - garden
whatever you do do it well and enjoy yourself
learn as you go - be open
the experiences you need will happen
you do not need to seek them out
you do not need to relive all the good ones
you do not need to fear the bad ones
but the trick has been played
and you do have to go through them
no short cuts
and no crying over spilled milk
the learning never stops
no matter if you are awake or not
the trick has been played
michael
Friends,
Leaving aside all 'ideas 'and 'Definitions' of Bhakti(Like Kannappa nayanar!),here is Swami Vivekananda on the Forms of Love-Manifestation:
Here are some of the forms in which love manifests itself. First there is reverence. Why do people show reverence to temples and holy places? Because He is worshipped there, and His presence is associated with all such places. Why do people in every country pay reverence to teachers of religion? It is natural for the human heart to do so, because all such teachers preach the Lord. At bottom, reverence is a growth out of love;none of us can revere him whom we do not love. Then comes Priti — pleasure in God. What an immense pleasure men take in the objects of the senses. They go anywhere, run through any danger, to get the thing which they love, the thing which their senses like. What is wanted of the Bhakta is this very kind of intense love which has, however, to be directed to God. Then there is the sweetest of pains, Viraha, the intense misery due to the absence of the beloved. When a man feels intense misery because he has not attained to God, has not known that which is the only thing worthy to be known, and becomes in consequence very dissatisfied and almost mad — then there is Viraha; and this state of the mind makes him feel disturbed in the presence of anything other than the beloved (Ekarativichikitsâ). In earthly love we see how often this Viraha comes. Again, when men are really and intensely in love with women or women with men, they feel a kind of natural annoyance in the presence of all those whom they do not love. Exactly the same state of impatience in regard to things that are not loved comes to the mind when Para-Bhakti holds sway over it; even to talk about things other than God becomes distasteful then. "Think of Him, think of Him alone, and give up all other vain words" अन्या वाचो विमुंचथ। — Those who talk of Him alone, the Bhakta finds to be friendly to him; while those who talk of anything else appear to him to be unfriendly. A still higher stage of love is reached when life itself is maintained for the sake of the one Ideal of Love, when life itself is considered beautiful and worth living only on account of that Love (तदर्थप्राणसंस्थानं) . Without it, such a life would not remain even for a moment. Life is sweet, because it thinks of the Beloved. Tadiyatâ (His-ness) comes when a man becomes perfect according to Bhakti — when he has become blessed, when he has attained God, when he has touched the feet of God, as it were. Then his whole nature is purified and completely changed. All his purpose in life then becomes fulfilled. Yet many such Bhaktas live on just to worship Him. That is the bliss, the only pleasure in life which they will not give up. "O king, such is the blessed quality of Hari that even those who have become satisfied with everything, all the knots of whose hearts have been cut asunder, even they love the Lord for love's sake" — the Lord "Whom all the gods worship — all the lovers of liberation, and all the knowers of the Brahman" — यं सर्वे देवा नमन्ति मुमुक्षवो ब्रह्मवादिनश्चेति (Nri. Tap. Up.). Such is the power of love. When a man has forgotten himself altogether, and does not feel that anything belongs to him, then he acquires the state of Tadiyata; everything is sacred to him, because it belongs to the Beloved. Even in regard to earthly love, the lover thinks that everything belonging to his beloved is sacred and so dear to him. He loves even a piece of cloth belonging to the darling of his heart In the same way, when a person loves the Lord, the whole universe becomes dear to him, because it is all His."
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Dear Arvind and friends, It's obvious that Friesan does not know what he's talking about. A direct quote from Ramana Maharshi puts it all into perspective. "From that moment onwards the 'I' or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished once and for all. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time on. Whether the body was engaged in talking, reading or anything else, I was still centered on 'I'."
z,
"My question in the previous comments was what is the relation between 'predestiny' and 'Personal God'.Predestiny and 'Personal God' are mutually exclusive.Predestiny follows from causation."
This question has been very definitely answered by Sri Bhagavan in the very first verse of Upadesa sAram:
1. Action yields fruit,
For so the Lord ordains it.
How can action be the Lord?
It is insentient.
It is clear that even if 'Predestiny' as you call it follows 'Causation',it does not exclude 'Personal God'.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
z,
"Becuase of his limited senses he cannot see this Grand Causation and invents Personal God."
May be the 'Limited senses and Mind' has invented 'Grand causation'!How are you sure that it is there?Is there a first cause for anything?This is simply an extrapolation of the mind.
Here is an excerpt from Swami Vivekananda's Jnana Yoga-The Real Nature of Man:
Some children were being examined. The examiner put them rather hard questions, and among them was this one: "Why does not the earth fall?" He wanted to evoke answers about gravitation. Most of the children could not answer at all; a few answered that it was gravitation or something. One bright little girl answered it by putting another question: "Where should it fall?" The question is nonsense. Where should the earth fall? There is no falling or rising for the earth. In infinite space there is no up or down; that is only in the relative. Where is the going or coming for the infinite? Whence should it come and whither should it go?"
The Entire Talk is a superb one .Here is the link:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Jnana-Yoga/The_Real_Nature_of_Man
Namaskar.
Z,
“My question in the previous comments was what is the relation between 'predestiny' and 'Personal God'. Predestiny and 'Personal God' are mutually exclusive.”
So sorry, I missed the reasoning and the argument preceding, that led you to make this statement. Please do outline it again if possible.
Actually, in my humble opinion, the 2 are inextricably entwined. Loosely, the logic would go like this:
- God is defined as omnipotent and omniscient (else He is not “God” is He?).
- The moment we admit an entity as “omniscient”, He must know exactly what is to happen in the world till infinite time. He can only know that if, EVERYTHING, even the falling of a leaf, is predetermined. (Because, events are all linked. A leaf falls, a man bends to pick it up, the bullet which would have hit his head misses etc, thus making the falling of a leaf too a significant event).
- Then, if everything is predetermined, who made the “plan”, the predetermined template of events? If it is not God then there is another entity more powerful than Him in the world, more deserving of the title of “God”. Or else, God did create all this. That in fact is “omnipotence”.
And so, whichever way you look at it, if there is predetermination, THERE IS ALSO “GOD”. And the corollary is that if you believe in God, YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN PREDETERMINATION TOO. The logic is inexorable. In fact, it cannot be beat, take my word for it.
Best wishes
Sri Bhagavan settles the issue of
destiny and free will in Verse 19
of ULLadu Narpadu. "The debate,
'Does free will prevail or fate?'
is only for those who do not know
the root of both. Those who have
known the Self, the common source of free will and fate, have passed
beyond them, and will not return to
them. As regards IRaivan or Iswaran, Sri Bhagavan says in Who
am I?: "What is Real is only one's
own Swarupam. The world, jiva and
Iswara are only imagination of the mind." Sri Sadhu Om, while commenting on Guru Vachaka Kovai,
says: The Tamizh world IRaivan is usually understood as meaning God, the Lord of the world, and as Bhagavan has elsewhere explained, the trinity of soul, world and their Lord, will always appear to coexist in Maya, and thus the apparent world does exist in the view of its apparent Lord, God. Therefore, one seeing this verse, [Verse No. 23 of GVK] Sri Bhagavan remarked, "Who said that there is no world in God's view?", but when Sri Muruganar, explained that he had used the word in the sense of the Supreme Brahman, Sri Bhagavan accepted this meaning and approved the verse.
David,
New post please!
There is no sense in repeating and discussing the sayings of the sages over and over again. Too much discussion is like mental masturbation. Own experience counts. We need to be brave and absolutely fresh. Let us do so and dive into ourselves to experience the nature of reality within. Afterwards our words will have real importance.
We dive into ourselves and open our eyes. Then we simply talk about what we see. It's the easiest thing of the world. Even children can do it.
The universal truth awakes within as an individual truth. So let us be individuals and not the slaves of books and sayings.
He offers his time generously but keeps the personal
relationship to a minimum.
He always gives the same, somewhat boring lectures along
with his gentle advice and admonishments. I'm convinced he's
a great bhakta saint, but to many he's just a sweet little
village man from West Bengal presently living in California.
His satsang is small because he doesn't allow projection,
and he doesn't perform psychotherapy. That filters
out everyone except the sincere who already have or develop a
liking for the teachings of Ramakrishna and his disciples.
He leaves the therapy to the therapists while he gently points
you in the direction of understanding. In my view that makes
him an ideal guru.
Folks,
Thanks very much to each one of you for all your inputs.For me today has been a lucky day with a lot of useful input from all members.First I want to make it clear that topics such as these are very complex and hence all I say is only work in progress and not finality.
Ravi you have quoted Vivekananda. In the past few months I have read a lot of chapters by Vivekananda. The reason I pickup Vivekananda is his discourses are a classic example of what I am going to layout.If we observe Vivekananda’s view from his teenage days to his very end we will clearly see different stages of evolution towards God.I am not going to go much into detail. First he argued and ridiculed Ramakrishna’s views on God as a teenager, then went through dire poverty, then could talk to Mother Kali and towards the end of his life he could increasingly see only immense Silence. Now if we take his statements made in different stages of his evolution out of context we will find contradictions. If we take the context of that particular stage of development behind his statements they are perfect in that context. Otherwise Vivekananda will appear to be so contradictory on so many issues. One simple example is in Belur math he allowed a temple for Ramakrishna to be built but in the Advaita Ashram in Mayavati he wanted not even a picture of Ramakrishna hanging around.Also while discussing morals of each country you cannot compare the morals of one nation with that of the other.The morals of each society stand on their own merit. Each stage is disjointed and there is no continuity like the seed, when it grows to a plant and then into a tree.I think some people do not see this definition of God changing in every stage and simply argue that; no it is Bruce; like in Montypython sketch.But you are simply arguing it is always Bruce but the fact is there are many Bruces and each is different.Now we have our own opinion and then go to dig out a statement made by say Vivekananda and quote it. For eg: on caste Vivekananda has said it is bad, it is good and other times it could not have been in any other way.So there you go there is a statement for everyone of us.Each statement has a context and in that context it is right.But we pull it out of context knowingly or unknowingly (and that includes me) and quote it to suit our beliefs.
(contd…)
-z
(contd…)
Similarily the views being put forward on God here are from different stages and hence the confusion.Though God is broadly classified into a few types there are as many billions of definitions of God as the jivas. There is no one God across all stages.I have already mentioned saints like Mira Bai, Kabir also have changed their definition of God in their lifetime. In the end stage(or no state) for Papaji his Krishna of teenage days was no more.
Thanks Arvind for your clear explaination.Thanks Subramanian,Clemens and LMM.Subramanian and Clemens: you are quoting Brahmastra.Arvind you quote God is omnipotent, omniscient and let me add All pervading.This is what has been passed on to us.In the first place these statements are logically impossible. To me these statements are incomprehensible. If God is all pervading where is the space to realise that very fact that God is all pervading.If God is all knowing how can he be other than a machine.He will be as jada as a rock.It is some man out of his incapacity and bewilderment that attributed omniscience and omnipotency .You can create whatever you like in your imagination.Has anybody checked the practical possibility of such a being.What is acceptable to me is God too has avidya but apparently it is called Maya upaadhi just like
in the maya seen by Brahma and Vishnu in the story of Arunachala and the maya seen by Siva running after the Mohini avatar of Vishnu.The moment he became conscious of himself everything that happened after that First Cause(becoming conscious) is a natural orderly progression. So he is only a wall flower.When he is only a wall flower what use is he to me.The machine in the Gym is also a wall flower/jada.But if you argue the machine in the Gym helps you to become stronger then God also helps me to become stronger.
About predestiny I have taken the statements made by the likes of Ramana,Robert Adams at face value.I do not know it myself.What I am trying to say is we now know how rains happen.Evaporation and perspiration cycle.If we have the complete knowledge of the atmospheric trends we can even predict the exact years of drought for ever.Before this man thought there is Varuna Dev(Rain God) and when he is not happy with the conduct of the people it did not rain that year.Even recently in some countries people thought the earth quakes happened because God was unhappy with them.But the earth quakes are a natural reaction.So also Rahu and Ketu gobbling up during eclipses.Now we know why eclipses happen and predict with accuracy their occurrence. The Eclipses are now predetermined but before they were acts of demi gods.The fact is they were always predetermined.But man out of his ignorance invented the act of Demi gods Rahu and Ketu.So here Predestiny(mechanical/automatic) and the story of Rahu and Ketu are mutually exclusive.My question is if everything is happening according to it’s law(predetermined) where does a Sentient God come in all this.People simply say oh because this Universe is so complex there must be a creator. So is a computer to a man from the middle ages.But we know millions of men have come together and built a computer and it is no trick or magic.So the unknown becomes God.Our hope and fear invents an All powerful God out of desperation and ignorance.But super beings may exist but they are not Omniscient, Omnipresent and All pervading. What exists out of Time no body will ever know because the moment you know you are already in time.If everything is happening on it’s own according to it’s law there is no The Dynamic God.There may be super beings but they too have their own Time and problems but on a different scale.Apparently our lifetime is their wink. That is their Time.They may be under maya that they are running our world but they too are puppets just like us.This is my current understanding based on the statements, books of various Saints and extrapolation/logic.So be warned.I would love to learn if anyone teaches me otherwise.
-z
Dear Clemens,
We are all discussing Sri Bhagavan's life and experiences, His related conversations, and also the reminiscences of people who were with Him when he was in body. So also with Sri Ramakrishna and Swami
Vivekananda. To call it as intellectual masturbation is a travesty of truth. We are discussing this as a part of Sat Sangh. Others may contribute either accepting my views and opposing it. This gives us a way to know the Truth which is only One. This is some sort of Sadhana. When Sadhana becomes Sadhyam for both of us, then we will no longer write here, unless
David specially asks us to share our experience. This sort of Sadhana is common in all religions and philosophies. Why should the Priest in the church read again and again the Bible starting from
Genesis to the end of New Testament, say gospel according to St. Mark? He is doing it day in day out, for years almost to the same audience. Why? Why? It is considered as a Satsangh and one day one or more of the audience will stand up say, "Nothing more for me. I have realized God. Thanks for your Bible reading, which as a Sadhana helped me."
As Sri Ramakrishna said: We use one thorn to remove the other thorn, thereafter both the thorns
are not necessary for me. Sri
Bhagavan came to Arunachala, hugged the Lingam and then went away. In His remaining 54 years of life, He must have hardly went to the Temple for a couple of occasions. Why? When Arunachala is dwelling in the Heart, why look at him in the Temple? In case of Sri Bhagavan, I should say, it was only thanksgiving and not even Sadhana. Because His Sadhana was already over in Madurai house in 15 minutes, and He attained the Sadhyam. Please do not belittle the discusssions here, which in my view, is Sadhana for all those who are yet to reach the goal. In another blog, I look at the Webcam photo of the Hill, at least 4 to 6 times a day? Why it helps me to still the mind. I am never tired of seeing the Old Hill's new photo. It has been a mind stopping experience for me at least a minute each time. It gives a foresight of Thannizhappu, eradicating the ego, at least for a small measure of time. If this Thannizhappu becomes permanent, it becomes Than Nilai. Thereafter you will not see me writing in this blog.
salutations to all:
Anonymous(z.):
1. z. said "...If we observe Vivekananda’s view from his teenage days to his very end we will clearly see different stages of evolution towards God..."
if this is a 'problem', then let's take bhagavAn :-). bhagavAn was supremely consistent all through right from 1896 to 1950 :-)
2. z. said "...If God is all pervading...; If God is all knowing...; Has anybody checked the practical possibility of such a being...; What is acceptable to me is God too has avidya... etc."
z. - firstly, all these are imponderables; secondly, these are strictly 'problems' assailing the questioner (in this case z.), and it's precisely for such useless conflicts that bhagavAn strongly recommended vichAra as the tool to turn away attention from this kind of nonsense that bothers us, and first of all find out the 'truth', if any, of one's own self instead :-)
z,
Friend,I understand that you are perhaps trying to express this-an excerpt from Vivekananda:
My idea is that what you call a Personal God is the same as the Impersonal Being, a Personal and Impersonal God at the same time. We are personalised impersonal beings. If you use the word in the absolute sense, we are impersonal; but if you use it in a relative meaning, we are personal. Each one of you is a universal being, each one is omnipresent. It may seem staggering at first, but I am as sure of this as that I stand before you. How can the spirit help being omnipresent? It has neither length, nor breadth, nor thickness, nor any material attribute whatsoever; and if we are all spirits we cannot be limited by space. Space only limits space, matter matter. If we were limited to this body we would be a material something. Body and soul and everything would be material, and such words as "living in the body", "embodying the soul" would be only words used for convenience; beyond that they would have no meaning. Many of you remember the definition I gave of the soul; that each soul is a circle whose centre is in one point and circumference nowhere. The centre is where the body is, and the activity is manifested there. You are omnipresent; only you have the consciousness of being concentrated in one point. That point has taken up particles of matter, and formed them into a machine to express itself. That through which it expresses itself is called the body. So you are everywhere; when one body or machine fails, you, the centre, move on and take up other particles of matter, finer or grosser, and work through that. This is man. And what is God? God is a circle with its circumference nowhere and centre everywhere. Every point in that circle is living, conscious, active, and equally working; with us limited souls, only one point is conscious, and that point moves forward and backward. As the body has a very infinitesimal existence in comparison with that of the universe, so the whole universe, in comparison with God, is nothing. When we talk of God speaking, we say He speaks through His universe; and when we speak of Him beyond all limitations of time and space, we say He is an Impersonal Being. Yet He is the same Being.
continued....
z,
Swami Vivekananda continued...
"To give an illustration: We stand here and see the sun. Suppose you want to go towards the sun. After you get a few thousand miles nearer, you will see another sun, much bigger. Supposing you proceed much closer, you will see a much bigger sun. At last you will see the real sun, millions and millions of miles big. Suppose you divide this journey into so many stages, and take photographs from each stage, and after you have taken the real sun, come back and compare them; they will all appear to be different, because the first view was a little red ball, and the real sun was millions of miles bigger; yet it was the same sun. It is the same with God: the Infinite Being we see from different standpoints, from different planes of mind. The lowest man sees Him as an ancestor; as his vision gets higher, as the Governor of the planet; still higher as the Governor of the universe, and the highest man sees Him as himself. It was the same God, and the different realisations were only degrees and differences of vision."
You seem to think that man invented God through his 'imagination',whereas Swamiji is saying that each one takes as much of 'God' as is his capacity.If I bring a spoon to carry water,I can carry a spoonful only from the Ocean;if I bring a ladle,I can take a ladle;If I bring a Glass,I can take a Glassful and so.The Personal God is akin to this-If we think of God as our Mother,She Reveals herself as the Divine Mother(Please understand that 'Mother' already exists,only then we may think of the Divine as our Mother;Similiarly we may enter into any sort of relationship with God as father,as Brother,as Beloved,etc,and this is not 'Imagination.The Divine is capable of responding to the earnest Devotee appropriate to his approach.
If we cast aside all 'ideas' and mental fixations and approach God in a simple way-We can become aware of the response.
I am suggesting this approach because you have written that you will be happy to be a Bhakta.
It is not as if we are praying to God to give us this or that;It is on account of our deep seated need for Love and Peace.Love and Peace cannot be imagined.They are there or they are not.
Why not give it a try?Here Satsangha is a great help ,more than reading books that provide food for 'Thought'.The Reason why I recommend The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna is that it has all the answers to whatever doubts one may have and the answers are downright simple and practical.Most importantly,one gets the opportunity to enjoy direct satsangh with the Great master.
Namaskar.
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from Vivekananda:
Jesus Christ was God -- the Personal God become man. He has manifested Himself many times in different forms and these alone are what you can worship. God in His absolute nature is not to be worshipped. Worshipping such God would be nonsense. We have to worship Jesus Christ, the human manifestation, as God. You cannot worship anything higher than the manifestation of God. The sooner you give up the worship of God separate from Christ, the better for you. Think of the Jehovah you manufacture and of the beautiful Christ. Any time you attempt to make a God beyond Christ, you murder the whole thing. God alone can worship God. It is not given to man, and any attempt to worship Him beyond His ordinary manifestations will be dangerous to mankind. Keep close to Christ if you want salvation; He is higher than any God you can imagine. If you think that Christ was a man, do not worship Him; but as soon as you can realise that He is God, worship Him. Those who say He was a man and then worship Him commit blasphemy; there is no half - way house for you; you must take the whole strength of it. "He that hath seen the Son hath seen the Father", and without seeing the Son, you cannot see the Father. It would be only tall talk and frothy philosophy and dreams and speculations. But if you want to have a hold on spiritual life, cling close to God as manifest in Christ."
Namaskar.
Ravi,
Thanks for pointing out the first verse of Upadesa Undiyar or Upadesa Sara in Sanskrit.
The english translation by Prof.K.Swaminathan:
1. Action yields fruit,
For so the Lord ordains it.
How can action be the Lord?
It is insentient.
The original Sanskrit written by Bhagawan himself:
---------------------
Karturaajnaya praapyate phalam
Karma kim param?
Karma ta jadam.
The original Telugu written by Bhagawan himself:
----------------------
Karmamu phalamichchu kartraajna valana
[Karma bears fruit becuase of Kartraajna]
Karmamu daivamaa?
[Is Karma God?]
Karmamu Jadame
[Karma is Jada/insentient]
We see that Bhagawan has used the word Daivam in the second line in the Telugu original and this very obviously translates to God in most languages.
In the first line he uses the word 'Kartraajna'.Now I do not understand when Swaminathan and Pranavananda(author of the Telugu commentary dated 1928 with the help of Ganapathi Muni)
translate 'Kartraajna' as God.If Bhagawan meant God by 'Kartraajna' why did he not use the word 'daivam' as done in the second line.Look at the Telugu original.We know Bhagawan is extremely pithy with words especially so in such a heart piece as 'Upadesa Saara'. Tamilians can look at Upadesa Undiyar at http://www.davidgodman.org/rteach/Upadesa_Undiyar.pdf
So can any experts expound the meaning of 'Kartraajna' and if it simply means God why did not Bhagawan use the word Daivam like in the second line?
Let me take a pot shot.Kartraajna = Kartr + aajna. Kartru = doership?; aajna = command
Folks especially Tamilians could you please look up the original Tamil on page-8 at the link given above and tell me.I am confused by Michael James translation.
-z
Following from the previous comment on Kartraajna:
The original line in Telugu:
Karmamu phalamichchu Kartraajna valana
Kartraajna = kartr + aajna
kartr = doership?; aajna = command
So kartraajna may mean 'commandment of doership'
In this context Jiva is the karta(doer) of the karma(action).'aajna'(command) in this context can be taken as commandment/ordainment/allotment of kartr(doership) [to the jiva,the doer].
Now the whole line may read as :
Karma gives/bears fruit 'becuase of/as per' the commandment of doership.
If I did all OK with the translation the question is why did Bhagawan use 'commandment of doership' instead of the word Daivam(God) as in the second line?
It's almost as if Bhagawan wanted to avoid the use of the word Ordainer or God who allots Karma??
Folks please jump in.
-z
Folks,
Sorry want to be more precise.
Why did he not use the word Daivaajna? i.e Daivaajna = Daiva + aajna
Daiva = God and aajna = command
Pranavananda uses the word Bhagavataajna for Kartraajna in his commentary
Michael James' translation of the Tamil original:
Karma giving fruit is by the ordainment of God [the karta or Ordainer]. Can karma be God, since karma is insentient [jada]?
I do not know Tamil but notice that Michael thinks that the karta(doer) is the Ordainer.I suspect this is a blunder.The karta(doer) is the Jiva not the Ordainer.Tamil folks can comment on this.
-z
z,
You are wondering what word Sri Bhagavan used in original Tamil.Interestingly,in the first line ,he uses the Tamil word that Christians routinely use to describe God-the word is 'Kartan'!In the next line,He also uses another Tamil word that Hindus use 'Kadavul' for God in common parlance.This also clearly states that He(or IT if you like)is the only doer of actions!It is his 'Ajnya' or 'ordainment' that yield 'Results' .
This is the prelude to the teaching-Exactly like what you were saying in one of your post that if we understand the law of karma and results,there is no need to posit 'God',there were a set of People,Karma Kanda practitioners who thought that Karma is the alpha and omega of all living and by doing the 'Right' work,the 'Right Result' will follow!
To awaken them from this 'mental fixation' Lord Siva gave them the Upadesa -and here Sri Muruganar just transferred the whole responsibility to Sri Bhagavan,for who else than Lord Siva(or his son!whichever way we view Bhagavan!)to set forth those teachings.
Sri Bhagavan immediately hammers and dispels the illusion and of Karma Kandis in the very first verse.
Following this verse,Sri Bhagavan also admits all the various approaches towards God or Truth,as appropriate to sadhakas at various stages(We need to understand this properly-There is nothing like Great and small in this.Often if we do the so called 'Lower Stage' Sadhana in a whole hearted way,we can leap frog all the others-There is no linear progression).
Here is the very first verse in Tamil:
Kanmam payantharal Kartanadhu ANaiyAR
Kanamam KadavuLO?(Is karma God?)undhE paRa
Kanmam jadamathAl undhE paRa
Meaning:
The Result of Action
is as ordained by the creator
Could action then be the Almighty?-
(No)for action is wholly insentient.
(Translation by Master TGN)
Kartar(creator or doer)and kadavuL(This a tamil word, a compound of -kada(ndhu)-means Beyond,and uL(within)),and in this way it may be called as the Self.
In this way,it may be said that Sri Bhagavan is equating the Kartan(when he is considered as the doer of actions,or Sakti as Sri Ramakrishna Calls it)with KadavuL(Self,the Beyond within).
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan's greatest virtue is His consistency. What He had told
to Sri M. Sivapraksasam Pillai, He
was saying till His last day on this
world. There were never any deviations in teachings.
KadavuL is one who transcends [kadathal] and remains within you [uL]. Kartan means who who does everything in this universe, the doer.
Then, one day in the hall, Bhagavan turned to me and said, 'Your karmas are over.'
Annamalai Swami, Final talks
What a bliss! No more duties! Free from the command of Gods and men. Freedom is to be free in the presence of God and to be free to praise Him however and whereever I like.
Friends,
ThAyumAnavar's paripoorNanandam:
ஆராயும் வேளையில் பிரமாதி யானாலும்
ஐயவொரு செயலுமில்லை
அமைதியொடு பேசாத பெருமைபெறு குணசந்த்ர
ராமென இருந்தபேரும்
நேராக வொருகோபம் ஒருவேளை வரஅந்த
நிறைவொன்று மில்லாமலே
நெட்டுயிர்த் துத்தட் டழிந்துளறு வார்வசன
நிர்வாக ரென்றபேரும்
பூராய மாயோன்று பேசுமிட மோன்றைப்
புலம்புவார் சிவராத்திரிப்
போதுதுயி லோமெனற விரதியரும் அறிதுயில்
போலேயிருந்து துயில்வார்
பாராதி தனிலுள்ள செயலெலாம் முடிவிலே
பார்க்கில்நின் செயலல்லவோ
பார்குமிட மெங்குமொரு நீக்கமற நிறைகின்ற
பரிபூர ணானந்தமே.
When you come to think of it,
Even Brahma and the rest of the gods are powerless to act on their own.
Even those who habitually observed a calm demeanor
And were sparing of words,
And who built up the reputation
As acme of gentle behaviour
Sometimes do fly into a temper, losing all balance
And breathing hard, indulge in sudden outbursts.
Even those who were reputed as men
That are masters of expression
In Eloquence ,fumble and whine.
Even those who vowed
That they would not have a wink of sleep
On the Holy Night of Siva,(Sivaratri)
As if in Wakeful sleep(meditation)they fall asleep.
When thus, you come to examine
The activities that go on in the myriad worlds,
Are they not really all
Of Thine own willing?
Oh! Thou who filleth all visible space
In unbroken continuity!
Thou, the Bliss that is Perfect Full.
Namaskar.
Thanks Subramanian and Ravi for your responses on the First verse of Ulladu Narpadu.Also thanks Ravi for all the clippings in response to my comments.
But you have not answered my question.My be I should rephrase my question for the Tamil version like this: Why did not Bhagavan use Kadavul in the first line as well?
In all the three languages he used God directly in the second line but in the first line he uses Kartraajna in Telugu and Sanskrit and the equivalent in Tamil(Karttanadu?).
If he wanted to mean God conclusively,in the first line he could have used Kadavul.Ofcourse all this is only my suspicion.
Also does not Karta(doer) mean Jiva? Because Jiva is the doer of action not God. Also what is the difference between Karta and Kartr or do they mean the same?
-z
"Then, one day in the hall, Bhagavan turned to me and said, 'Your karmas are over"
Yeah that moment should have been surreal. I wish I knew what I have to do to get a guru like Bhagavan. I don't mean to say that he isn't guiding me from within, but I often feel the need for an external guru because I'm too dim-witted (no vairagya).
z,
I think all your questions have been already answered.Yes,we will go over it again for our benefit.
1. Why did not Bhagavan use Kadavul in the first line as well?
Kadavul refers to the Transcendent aspect of God that is beyond all word and thought-Hence no action or will can be attributed to this aspect of god.
God as Creator is the ordainer of the Results of Work(and hence the doer as well!).This aspect of God is Kartan(Doer).Please compare the following saying of Sri Ramakrishna from the Gospel:
"When I think of the
Supreme Being as inactive - neither creating nor preserving nor destroying -, I call Him
Brahman or Purusha, the Impersonal God. When I think of Him as active - creating,
preserving, and destroying -, I call Him Sakti or Maya or Prakriti, the Personal God. But
the distinction between them does not mean a difference. The Personal and the Impersonal
are the same thing, like milk and its whiteness, the diamond and its lustre, the snake and its
wriggling motion. It is impossible to conceive of the one without the other. The Divine
Mother and Brahman are one."
coming back to the second line,where Sri Bhagavan uses the word 'KadavuL',it is to say that God alone is sentient and work is insentient,and an insentient thing cannot dispense any 'Result'.
To recapitulate,God as Kartan(r) is the real ordainer of result of actions; and Karma being insentient cannot be mistaken as Equal to God who is sentient.(in terms of yielding result).The distinction between God as the Ordainer(Doer)and God(the sentient)is not one of difference.
2.Jiva is a mere puppet and identifying itself with action, imagines it is the doer.God alone is the doer.In fact most of our actions are being done for us,consciously or unconsciously.Let us take eating;we just put food in our mouth and somehow gulp it-the rest is all taken care by the system.
In fact it is this identification with action that creates the 'centre' or 'actor'.Jiva is thus an actor and not a doer.
Like we sit in the Train and say we are 'Travelling'.
No wise sage would ever attribute kartahood to the jiva.So,certainly sri Bhagavan would never even remotely admit of 'doer' ship to the jiva,leave alone attribute the result to such 'doings'.
Although in karma kAnda,like in the performance of Yajna or homa,the person who performs it is called Karta-but this is pure convention and cannot be associated with the Truth of the matter.
Kartan as sri Bhagavan refers to means the Creator(God)(also preserver and destroyer).
-----------------------------------
There need be no doubt as to what Karta means;Kartan is the Tamil variant of the same word,which is of Sanskrit Origin.The word KadavuL on the other hand is of Tamil origin.
The words of Great ones carry all these nuances and even at the linguistic level have this Richness and Eloquence embedded in their compositions.
Namaskar.
Adi Sankaracharya discussed and debated extensively the issues related to Karma, Ishwara, Self and Jnana with Kumarila Bhatta and Mandana Misra (later Suresvaracharya, disciple of Adi Sankaracharya), who both believed in doing only karmas and Not in Jnana or Self or Bhakthi or Ishwara.
Because majority of us are laden with strong worldly vasanas, Adi Sankaracharya advocated first karma and bakthi to gain chitta suddhi or steady mind without tormenting vasanas and then migrate to Jnana marga or Self enquiry.
After the arrival of print media and later the Internet, everybody are having unrestricted access to materials on Self Realization and getting confused without any progress due to lack of mental maturity and guidance by a realized Master.
In the olden days, the Master or Guru talks these things (i.e. on Self) to a disciple only if that person is mentally mature enough to grasp these things and does not get confused.
I believe, Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita also advises not to discuss these things with people who are not mentally mature enough to grasp these things, otherwise they will get confused and frightened and will not be able to focus on their daily life.
All these views, I think are touched by previous Sankaracharya of Kanchi.
Hence, for the majority of spiritual seekers karma and bakthi is the best
way forward.
Thanks.
Once again Thanks Ravi although there is a contradiction in your explaination of Kadavul before and after the Ramakrishna clipping.I would leave it there.
All I am trying to understand is what is meant by 'God is sentient'.Generally speaking what I understand is the ordainment of Karma comes between two incarnations i.e after the death of the present body and before taking up the next body.What is being said is it is God who decides what body/form you take up and where you are born in your next life.Here if how God allocates next life to every jiva is always fixed then he becomes a machine and not sentient.So somehow during this allotment of next life sometimes(very rarely?) he is unpredictable(i.e enslaved by emotions;ignorance; maala).That is what should make him Sentient otherwise if he is All knowing all the time there is no room for compassion or pity becuase he knows in advance the difficulty faced by his devotee and the ensuing fervent prayer by the devotee to change his prarabdha.If he has complete pre-knowledge about the situation why would he take pity on the devotee and change his prarabdha rarely. If one argues that if God knows about his change of mind in advance(i.e change of a devotee's prarabdha) then he is completely predictable and then does he not become jada too?I.e there is only Sentientness if there is unpredictability/maala/ignorance although greatly in smallest quantity.
I was just hearing the story of Markandeya.For eg in the story of Markandeya it is Siva who ordained him to die at the age of 16.Then again when the day arrives it is Siva himself who is impressed by the unperturbed devotion of Markandeya on that day even after learning of his ensuing death that day; pities Markandeya and changes his Prarabdha to live longer.
Here does Lord Siva know that he is going to change the Prarabdha of Markandeya even before the birth of Markandeya?If he knows he is not Sentient but jada.If Lord Siva changed his mind on the very day he is Sentient but not All Knowing.
There is also a discussion in the very first post of David where a commentator asked:Does God ordain Karma on incarnation by incarnation basis or once for all; for all the incarnations of a Jiva.
For me the above argument is very important.It makes or breaks God.Comments welcome please.
Can I request David once again to write a new post on Maya upadhi of God versus Avidya of Jiva.
-z
Sanker Ganesh,
I totally agree with you and have written a few comments on this.But I have to agree I myself have not been able to follow my own comment and by taking a step back to Bhakti and Karma.
-z
salutations to all:
anonymous (z.):
z. said "...the above argument is very important.It makes or breaks God..." let's stretch it a bit - if god is omniscient or all-knowing, then everything that everyone has done/ is doing/ will do is all 'known' to god, which implies there is no free-will, which also implies there is no destiny (because nobody is doing anything to 'deserve' anything they are given/ not given); therefore, all cause & effect relations (including the whole 'karma' aspect) break down & nothing can be resolved, for everything at all times is self-referential (or circular). this being the case, why should god 'know' anything at all? (this 'why' question is also of course known to the all-knowing god!, and the fact that i know that god knows is also known to him ad infinitum...). to begin with, why should god be all-knowing? for what? for whom? for what purpose and with what intention? could it be that the all-knowing god first casts us into bondage, then at some arbitrary stage lets us realise this bondage and also gives us the desire to be free, and at another arbitrary level grants us freedom... does the whole thing make any sense to you, or just strikes you as one complete piece of nonsense riddled with contradictions? :-)
salutations to all:
if one can see through the 'nonsense' i wrote earlier (just he tip of the iceberg!), then it isn't difficult to see through the absolute futility of all theories of creation & all the ensuing ultimate "why"s we love to ask & long to know!
most importantly, if we can view this 'nonsense', we will also then see why bhagavAn makes such brilliant sense! bhagavAn wasn't joking whenever he spoke about vichAra being the simplest & easiest, relative to all else (a garbage incinerator indeed) :-)))
Hi S,
Thanks for your comments.Your make a lucid and clever argument.I agree with you.I agree and understand intellectually that there is no point to whatsoever and so let me give up this Ego by committing Ego suicide.Fine so far but when I try to commit Ego-suicide there is great automatic, instinctive fear that kicks in unconsciously.I fear that I am losing myself.
Then when I introspect I see that there are strong desires of KKK(Kaamini, Kaanchan, Keerthi) deep inside.Simultaneously there is also a great dispassion and the intellectual understanding of the futility of desires.The core is full of desires.It is like the simile told by Sri Saradamma.Suppose you are heating a pot of water.On top of that there is another smaller pot of milk that fits neatly into the mouth of the bigger pot and is invisible.Now after heating, to a new comer he will see the milk overflowing and think that the visible big pot is full of milk but inside it is water.
So there is deadlock; stagnation.Now to move forward I can pull up all my will and take a step back and switch to a mixture of highly materialistic pursuits and may be Bhakthi.But I am unable to as there is a equal pull of these conflicting forces. To switch to Bhakthi I need to see a Sentient God.But by your argument of no point in anything God/Guru becomes automatic and Jada and everything in the end becomes a concept in mind.To see a dynamic God I have to be sure that this God is Real and not an empty formula.I think nobody develops love for God/Guru by intellectual understanding of God.I dont see that God can help me or take away anything from me.Then what is he for me.You see.I know this is need or fear based love. What to talk of Para-bhakthi that is love God without any motive.
z,
"To see a dynamic God I have to be sure that this God is Real and not an empty formula.I think nobody develops love for God/Guru by intellectual understanding of God.I dont see that God can help me or take away anything from me."
Friend,I totally agree with you.I now understand that we are facing a crisis of Faith.
God is indeed Real and we can experience his presence.To do this,we have to be open and receptive.This openness and receptivity is what is called Humility.
Many a time we are unable to articulate our Problem;we only feel stifled.
Here is an excerpt from Vivekananda's 'My Master':
There have been various poets in Bengal whose songs have passed to the people; they are sung in the streets of Calcutta and in every village. Most of these are religious songs, and their one central idea, which is perhaps peculiar to the religions of India, is the idea of realization. There is not a book in India on religion which does not breathe this idea. Man must realize God, feel God, see God, talk to God. That is religion. The Indian atmosphere is full of stories of saintly persons having visions of God. Such doctrines form the basis of their religion; and all these ancient books and scriptures are the writings of persons who came into direct contact with spiritual facts. These books are not written for the intellect, nor can any reasoning understand them, because they were written by men who saw the things of which they wrote, and they can be understood only by men who have raised themselves to the same height. They say there is such a thing as realization even in this life, and it is open to everyone, and religion begins with the opening of this faculty, if I may call it so. This is the central idea in all religions, and this is why we may find one man with the most finished oratorical powers, or the most convincing logic, preaching the highest doctrines and yet unable to get people to listen to him, while we may find another, a poor man, who scarcely can speak the language of his own motherland, yet half the nation worships him in his own lifetime as God.
continued...
z,
'My Master' continued...
In the temple( in Dakshineswar-ravi) was an image of the "Blissful Mother". This boy had to conduct the worship morning and evening, and by degrees this one idea filled his mind: "Is there anything behind this image? Is it true that there is a Mother of Bliss in the universe? Is it true that She lives and guides the universe, or is it all a dream? Is there any reality in religion?"
This skepticism comes to the Hindu child. It is the skepticism of our country: Is this that we are doing real? And theories will not satisfy us, although there are ready at hand almost all the theories that have ever been made with regard to God and soul. Neither books nor theories can satisfy us, the one idea that gets hold of thousands of our people is this idea of realization. Is it true that there is a God? If it be true, can I see Him? Can I realize the truth? ...
This idea took possession of the boy and his whole life became concentrated upon that. Day after day he would weep and say, "Mother, is it true that Thou existest, or is it all poetry? Is the Blissful Mother an imagination of poets and misguided people, or is there such a Reality?" We have seen that of books, of education in our sense of the word, he had none, and so much the more natural, so much the more healthy, was his mind, so much the purer his thoughts, undiluted by drinking in the thoughts of others. Because he did not go to the university, therefore, he thought for himself. Because we have spent half our lives in the university we are filled with a collection of other people's thoughts. Well has Prof. Max Mueller said in the article I have just referred to that this was a clean, original man; and the secret of that originality was that he was not brought up within the precincts of a university. However, this thought--whether God can be seen--which was uppermost in his mind gained in strength every day until he could think of nothing else. He could no more conduct the worship properly, could no more attend to the various details in all their minuteness. Often he would forget to place the food-offering before the image, sometimes he would forget to wave the light; at other times he would wave it for hours, and forget everything else.
continued....
z,
'My master' continued...
And that one idea was in his mind every day: "Is it true that Thou existest, O Mother? Why dost Thou not speak? Art Thou dead?" Perhaps some of us here will remember that there are moments in our lives when, tired of all the ratiocinations of dull and dead logic, tired of all plodding through books--which after all teach us nothing, become nothing but a sort of intellectual opium-eating--we must have it at stated times or we die--tired with all this, the heart of our hearts sends out a wail: "Is there no one in this universe who can show me the light? If Thou art, show the light unto me. Why dost Thou not speak? Why dost Thou make Thyself so scarce, why send so many Messengers and not Thyself come to me? In this world of fights and factions whom am I to believe and follow? If Thou art the God of every man and woman alike, why comest Thou not to speak to Thy child and see if he is not ready?" Well, to us all come such thoughts in moments of great depression; but such are the temptations surrounding us, that the next moment we forget. For the moment it seemed that the doors of the heavens were going to be opened, for the moment it seemed as if we were going to plunge into the light effulgent; but the animal man again shakes of all these angelic visions. Down we go, animal man once more, eating and drinking and dying, and dying and drinking and eating again and again. But there are exceptional minds which are not turned away so easily, which once attracted can never be turned back, whatever may be the temptation in the way, which want to see the Truth, knowing that life must go. They say, let it go in a noble conquest, and what conquest is nobler than the conquest of the lower man, than this solution of the problem of life and death, of good and evil?
At last it became impossible for him to serve in the temple. He left it and entered into a little wood that was near and lived there. About this part of his life, he told me many times that he could not tell when the sun rose or set, or how he lived. He lost all thought of himself and forgot to eat. During this period he was lovingly watched over by a relative who put into his mouth food which he mechanically swallowed. "
continued....
z,
'My Master' continued...
"Days and nights thus passed with the boy. When a whole day would pass, towards the evening when the peal of bells in the temples, and the voices singing, would reach the wood, it would make the boy very sad, and he would cry, "Another day is gone in vain, Mother, and Thou hast not come. Another day of this short life has gone, and I have not known the Truth." In the agony of his soul, sometimes he would rub his face against the ground and weep, and this one prayer burst forth: "Do Thou manifest Thyself in me, Thou Mother of the universe! See that I need Thee and nothing else!" Verily, he wanted to be true to his own ideal. He had heard that the Mother never came until everything had been given up for Her. He had heard that the Mother wanted to come to everyone, but they would not have Her, that people wanted all sorts of foolish little idols to pray to, that they wanted their own enjoyments, and not the Mother, and that the moment they really wanted Her with their whole soul, and nothing else, that moment She would come. So he began to break himself into that idea; he wanted to be exact, even on the plane of matter. He threw away all the little property he had, and took a vow that he would never touch money, and this one idea, "I will not touch money", became a part of him. It may appear to be something occult, but even in after-life when he was sleeping, if I touched him with a piece of money his hand would become bent, and his whole body would become, as it were, paralyzed. The other idea that came into his mind was that lust was the other enemy. Man is a soul, and soul is sexless, neither man nor woman. The idea of sex and the idea of money were the two things, he thought, that prevented him from seeing the Mother. This whole universe is the manifestation of the Mother, and She lives in every woman's body. "Every woman represents the Mother; how can I think of woman in mere sex relation?" That was the idea: Every woman was his Mother, he must bring himself to the state when he would see nothing but Mother in every woman. And he carried it out in his life."
Contd...
z,
'My Master' continued...
This is the tremendous thirst that seizes the human heart. Later on, this very man said to me, "My child, suppose there is a bag of gold in one room, and a robber in the next room; do you think that the robber can sleep? He cannot. His mind will be always thinking how to get into that room and obtain possession of that gold. Do you think then that a man, firmly persuaded that there is a Reality behind all these appearances, that there is a God, that there is One who never dies, One who is infinite bliss, a bliss compared with which these pleasures of the senses are simply playthings, can rest contented without struggling to attain It? Can he cease his efforts for a moment? He will become mad with longing." This divine madness seized the boy. At that time he had no teacher, nobody to tell him anything, and everyone thought that he was out of his mind. This is the ordinary condition of things. If a man throws aside the vanities of the world, we hear him called mad. But such men are the salt of the earth. Out of such madness have come the powers that have moved this world of ours, and out of such madness alone will come the powers of the future that are going to move the world.
So days, weeks, months passed in continuous struggle of the soul to arrive at truth. The boy began to see visions, to see wonderful things; the secrets of his nature were beginning to open to him. Veil after veil was, as it were, being taken off. Mother Herself became the teacher and initiated the boy into the truths he sought."
I have posted these excerpts in the spirit of Satsangh(Rather than point the link).I never tire of reading these passages over and over again.This is the essence of Spiritual Practice-To approach God in the simple,Direct way-Placing before Him all our Doubts and Fears-and willing to go the full length to be receptive and open to the Response.
The Response will come as a definitive response and we will know it when that happens.That will encourage us and this is how we get hooked.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
z,
Friend,I recommend that we do not read about maya and all that stuff.Whatever we need to know,will come in time.It is enough to approach God in a human way;infact that is what is possible and a sane thing to do.
Satsangh is a powerful help and company of genuine devotees-it is best to avoid those type of Satsangh which are more or less like Lady's Kitty Party.
Reading Books like The Gospel of sri Ramakrishna ,Letters from Sri Ramanasramam is the simplest way of benefitting from Satsangh with The Great masters-Not just the spiritual thoughts that may have-but to be in the Presence of these Great ones.
Wish you The Very Best.
Namaskar.
shankar Ganesh,
I totally agree with what you have expressed.Ofcourse,there may be some who would find appeal in a Rational approach,yet they also need the 'Intensity' and this 'Intensity' is what is Bhakti.
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Thanks for the wonderful translation
of Paripurananandam.
Dear Anon,
As has been replied, KadavuL is one
who is transcendent. He has no action. He is achalam, non moving.
But when individual does karmas
[he is also karta in that sense],
but he is doing karmas as per the
command of Karta [the great doer
-God]. Hence karmas alone do not confer the realization of KadavuL,the transcendent Being.
Dear Titus,
Why do most of us need an external
guru? Because as we identify ourselves with the bodies, we also
want to identify the guru with a
body. This also happened in 1950 with Sri Bhagavan's devotees. They left Tiruvannamalai and went to their homes or for pilgirmages. Soon they all found out that their minds were jumping here and there and they lost all concentration to pursue the path. One by one, they all came back.
And found His Presence, much more vigorous and powerful to confer them the peace they wanted. Only Kunju Swami, Major Chadwick, Annamalai Swami and a few others continued to remain in the Asramam. A Guru's Presence is more powerful than the body. So long as the Guru is embodied, one should remain ever with guru and after his vidheha kaivalyam, one should continue to remain near the Samadhi to obtain maximum benefit. Or meditate His ever present and all-over-remaining Presence This latter portion is described in Kaivlaya Navaneetam.
Dear Anon,
I see the logic in your argument about Markandeya and Siva. But we
should also remember that Siva or
Sivam or Godhead is beyond logic
and ratiocination. Kambar says in
his first verse of Kamba Ramayanam,
'ulaham yaavaiyum thaam uLa vakkalaum, nilai perutthalum, neekkalum, neenga alahila viLaiayuttadaiyar...." He not only
makes, sustains, and dissolves all the worlds but he is also capable of sports beyond logic. God's
actions cannot be brought under human logic. There are many stories like this. Why should Siva create a mango for Karaikkal Ammaiyar? Is it to rob her family life? Or is it for conferring her the right path of liberation? Why should she ask him to dance the cosmic dance? Which is done only at the time of dissolution? Is she still in state of duality from Siva to see Him dance? Then why should He prefer Tiruvalangadu to do the cosmic dancing? Why not in Kailas itself? These questions have no answers because Godhead is beyond human logic. Otherwise why should 10000 brainy scientists try to discover the God's particle in a huge lab in French-Swiss border? And they should keep a Nataraja statue at the entrance of this lab and pray to him everyday? Is God outside? Or will Nataraja show the God particle outside their Heart for the sake of these scientists?
...often feel the need for an external guru because I'm too dim-witted...
Well, you may WRITE to external gurus as I did and receive some more or less meaningful advice. But better is it to contemplate over and over again what the Holy Sciences (repräsented in our case here by Ramana) have to say. Ramana was one of the best - if not the best -, interprets of the Holy Sciences in modern times. "Best" means: His approach is absolutely individual and based on pure own experience - it is not traditional. You don't need to carry burdens of holy scriptures. Simply listen. "Dim-wittedness" is no problem as long as you are convinced of for what Ramana stands for. Time will take care of everything. A soul may be saved simply by finding a thrustworthy source.
Paths there are many. There is an absolutely strong and quick path described in Katha-Upanishad - the encounter with death. If you dare to throw yourself (=all your personal aspirations) into the mouth of Yama then He will be glad to be your guru, and you cannot find a higher guru. The strongest and quickest path is to loose hope to be saved by PEOPLE.
Hi Z, folks,
Thanks to a friend for telling me about this “Kartrajna” discussion. Apologies for not being completely familiar with the stuff already said, but this friend insisted that I should add my 2 pice bit anyhow.
Well, we can all agree that Bhagavan had an absolute mastery over Sanskrit. And that Sanskrit compound words in the hands of a Master have subtle layers of meanings. Sometimes, the sense cannot really be derived by simply splitting the words apart and picking up the separate meanings from a dictionary. And so, rather than grammatically deconstructing “Kartrajna”, let me just say the following:
It is my humble belief that Upadesa Saram, in the verses in the beginning, corrects some of the misconceptions that people might have with respect to karma, disinterested action, worship, prayer and so on; most of such misconceptions as are derived by an immature reading of the Bhagavad Gita especially. And as such, in a marvellously subtle touch, Bhagavan has used the term “Kartrajna” with respect to “kartr” in exactly the same sense as “Ksetrajna” is used in the BG with respect to “ksetra” (Chapter 13). And if you understand “Ksetrajna”, you should understand “Kartrajna” as well.
Or perhaps, we can also ask, why did Lord Krishna use the word “Ksetrajna”, and not Iswar, Daiva, Brahman, and so on?
Best wishes
Arvind,
"Bhagavan has used the term “Kartrajna” with respect to “kartr” in exactly the same sense as “Ksetrajna” is used in the BG with respect to “ksetra”
I have to disagree with you.In Kshetrajna,it means 'knower' of the Field.
In his tamil verse Sri Bhagavan leaves no doubt as to what the roots are -He says Karthanadhu+Anai(Order),clearly spelling out ,it is 'Ajna' ordainment and not 'jna'(Knower).He also clearly states Karthanadhu(Karthan's).
So there is very little doubt on the split of words.Interestingly Sri Bhagavan studied in a Christian School and this 'Kartan(r)'is the commonly used word for Creator.We may also recall the word 'Thagappanar'(Father)that he used in his letter before leaving Madurai.This clearly shows the Christian Terminology(In Tamil)that he must have been Familiar.
Namaskar.
From the point of view of Vivekananda, for Youths particularly, he advocated physical actions (karma) without expecting anything in return where the ego gets considerably weakened -- like teaching/providing education to underprivileged without receiving any fees, free sharing of skills/knowledge, providing living support for the destitutes, Catastrophe relief etc.
More than charity (i.e. giving away money), he advocated above because charity somehow strengthens ego in normal people without they being aware of it.
He also felt when above types of karma are carried out by the Youth and the able bodied, apart from chitta suddha and helping individuals mature spiritually, it also helps in nation building through the feeling and attitude of sacrifice.
Unfortunately, this kind of vision is not embedded in our education system. In the olden days, Gurukkula system played a part in such kind of sacrifice based character building.
Thanks.
Shankar Ganesh,
You have brought out a very important facet that is out of Fashion these days.
Here is an excerpt from 'Reminiscences of Vivekananda' by his disciple Swami Shuddhananda,where we find Master Mahasaya at the receiving end!
"Another day the talk was with Master Mahashaya, the author of the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. Master Mahashaya was asking Swamiji: "You speak of service, charity, and doing good to the world; do not they too belong to the domain of maya? When the goal of Vedanta is mukti (liberation), to cut at the root of all maya, what will be the result of these teachings to the people who are already bound tight in the coils of maya?" Out came a curt reply from Swamiji that startled Master Mahashaya and made him speechless: "Does not the idea of mukti also lie within the realm of maya? Atman (the Self) is nitya-mukta (ever free). Hence what necessity is there for you to attempt for it?" We understood that Master Mahashaya was ready to prescribe dhyana, japa, dharana, and other devotional practices to all classes of aspirants setting aside the importance of service, charity, love and benevolence. But according to Swamiji, just as devotional practices are of vital value to a class of aspirants, so there are other classes of aspirants for whom the ideals of karma-yoga are the real incentives of spiritual development. If you belittle the importance of the latter, you have also to set aside the efficacy of the former; but when you accept one course of sadhana (the spiritual practice), necessarily you cannot help accepting the other course too. We were able to grasp from this pointed reply of Swamiji that Master Mahashaya was belittling the ideals of karma-yoga as being a part of maya and was accepting dhyana, japa, dharana, etc., as the only paths to mukti. The generous heart and subtle intellect of Swamiji at once perceived this fallacy, and he could not bear this limited and narrow interpretation of spiritual practices. He showed by his wonderful arguments that even the struggle for liberation is within the domain of maya, and by giving service, charity, etc., the same place as the devotional practices in the development of the spiritual life, he enunciated that the followers of the karma-yoga too have the same claim to recognition as the followers of the other yogas."
This is indeed very important and is quite in line with the collective aspect of Sanatana Dharma.
Namaskar.
Aravind,
As Ravi already said Kshetrajna = kshetra + jna. Not aajna. jna = knower(as jnana is knowledge). aajna or Ajna is command.
My question in that discussion was why does Bhagawan say in line one of the First verse:
Karma bears fruit because of the commandment of doership.
Why does he Not directly say?
'Karma bears fruit because of God's command[Daivaajna]'
Initially I doubted if Bhagawan wanted to leave room open for personal interepretation about the sentientness of God in allotment of Karma. But I think this is not the case as in line 2 and 3 of the same First verse he means God is sentient:
Line 2) Is Karma God?
Line 3) Karma in Jada only (insentient)
From the above two lines we can infer that:
God is ajada(sentient)
Also in the third verse, for the Sanskrit version he uses a word Ishwaraarpita.For the corresponding Telugu verse he uses Kartrarpita. From this we can conclude Bhagawan means God(Ishwara) by Kartr(doer?) in this context.
When I googled I found that the word Kartr is a most common word in philosopy texts and even Paanini's Magna Carta Sanskrit grammar text.So Bhagawan must have followed well established traditions by using the same words that are common in Indian philosophy.
Only a language expert and Bhagawan expert can confirm.
-z
z/Friends,
In Tamil we have words - iRaivan,kadavuL and Andavan-these all mean God.Yet each have their Root based meanings that refer to different aspect of God.
kadavuL refers to the god within and transcendent(Self)
iRaivan refers to God manifest as the universe-iRaithal means scattered,dispersed(in space)
Andvan refers to the one Beyond.Andu(Distant)+avan(He).It can also mean Andu(Rule)+avan(He)-He,The Ruler.
'Kartan' is of Sanskrit origin and is not a Tamil word.
So,whatever be it,it all means the same thing depending on how we view and understand God.
Namaskar.
Anonymous,
"To switch to Bhakthi I need to see a Sentient God.But by your argument of no point in anything God/Guru becomes automatic and Jada and everything in the end becomes a concept in mind.To see a dynamic God I have to be sure that this God is Real and not an empty formula.I think nobody develops love for God/Guru by intellectual understanding of God.I dont see that God can help me or take away anything from me.Then what is he for me."
I understand your dilemma and see a way out. If you are looking for a "sentient God" to worship why not look to your own consciousness? Examine the very fabric and living quality of consciousness itself, your own awareness, and worship that? Do puja or japa to that. Give love and adoration to that. Literally. It's not as if you can't "see" this God. You feel it every day and every moment. It's as real to you as anything, more real in fact, since without it you can't even be aware of anything else. And the further advantage is that you can actually be this God while at the same time worshipping it. How great is that?
If you have no faith in external Gods then just worship your own being and awareness as God. It really is a living, miraculous being. And it really will teach and respond to you if you give it your attention and love. You might be amazed to see what can develop with this kind of self-bhakta. Worth a try at least.
Thanks Folks, to EACH ONE OF YOU for all your clippings, words and encouragements and Best wishes.
-z
broken yogi, "It's not as if you can't "see" this God. You feel it every day and every moment. It's as real to you as anything, more real in fact, since without it you can't even be aware of anything else. And the further advantage is that you can actually be this God while at the same time worshipping it. How great is that"
Are you putting the cart before the horse? You cannot make statements as the above with confidence unless you see things as they really are!
You can stay with the 'I am' or awareness as an anchor but staying with the 'I am glorified' is not liberation. Liberation is beyond any concept.
B Yogi I know you mean well and it sounds good but don't play mental games!
glow
Anon,
I'm not suggesting you glorify the "I am". I'm not even suggesting you worship the "I am". I'm simply talking about consciousness, the living quality of sentience itself, and that loving this living consciousness is a good step to take. I don't suggest glorifying yourself as some sort of God, just loving this tangible quality of being conscious. Give it your loving attention, and see what happens.
Anyway, if you can't relate to your own consciousness this way, no problem. Let's just say that love of oneself is not a delusional approach to take. But maybe not everyone can grasp the simplicity of it. Thought maybe you could. Was wrong, I guess.
It works for me though. I don't worship any Gods or Goddesses, but I do worship living consciousness. My God is real, in other words, and I can feel it through and through.
Friends,
In this wonderful verse ThayumAnavar bemoans the confusion wrought by the different descriptions,pathways to God-How his mind is scattered like a globule of Mercury.
பூதலய மாகின்ற மாயைமுத லென்பர்சிலர்
பொறிபுலன் அடங்குமிடமே
பொருளென்பர் சிலர்கரண முடிவென்பர் சிலர்குணம்
போனஇட மென்பர்சிலபேர்
நாதவடி வென்பர்சிலர் விந்துமய மென்பர்சிலர்
நட்டநடு வேயிருந்த
நாமென்பர் சிலர்ருவுஉருவ மாமென்பர் சிலர்கருதி
நாடில்அரு வென்பர்சிலபேர்
பேதமற வுயிர்கெட்ட நிலையமென் றிடுவர்சிலர்
பேசில்அரு ளென்பர்சிலபேர்
பின்னும்முன் னுங்கெட்டசூனியம தென்பர்சிலர்
பிறவுமே மொழிவர்இவையால்
பாதரச மாய்மனது சஞ்சலப் ப்டுமலால்
பரமசுக நிட்டை பெறுமோ
பார்குமிடமெங்குமொரு நீக்கமற நிறைகின்ற
பரிபூர ணானந்தமே.
The Maya into which the elements subside
Is the origin of all, so some say. *[1]
The Substance into which the sense organs merge
Is the reality, so some say. *[2]
Where the cognitive organs, the karanas end,
, so some say. *[3]
State bereft of the gunas , so some say *[4].
Nadam(Sound)form it is, some say *[5]
Bindu Nature it is, others say *[6].
The centre of centre,the Self it is, yet others say *[7].
Formed it is, some say. *[8]
Formless it is, if you search deeper, so some say *[9].
The state without differentiation where the jiva(hood) is lost
Is the reality, so some say *[10].
Silent Divine Grace, so some say *[11].
The Void that neither beginning nor end is That, some say *[12].
And thus and thus yet other things they say.
Other than my mind, like mercury running hither thither,
Will I ever attain
The bliss of Transcendental Samadhi?
Oh! Thou who filleth all visible space
In unbroken continuity!
Thou, the Bliss that is Perfect Full!
Namaskar.
Friends,
Foot notes to the Thayumanavar song:
FootNotes:
[1] School of Niriswara Sankhya
[2] School of Pasana Vadins
[3] School of Sangranda Vadins
[4] School of Niganta Vadins
[5] School of Sabda Brahma Vadins
[6] School of Jnananma Vadins
[7] School of Ekanma Vadins
[8] School of Sivasama Vadins
[9] School of Maya Vadins
[10] School of Bhaskara Charya
[11] School of Aikya Vada Saivas
[12] School of Sunya Vadins
Hi Ravi, Z,
Apologies for being so slow in responding.
Well, in my humble opinion you have “‘Ksetrajna” wrong, as does virtually every translation of the BG one can pick up. It is simplistic to translate “ksetra” into “field” and “Ksetrajna” as the “knower of the field”.
Actually, the root “jna” has another little less known meaning, as, “directing intelligence of” or “sentience of”, or “the enlivening principle of”. In an astounding piece of scholarship, Sir Monier Williams also mentions this meaning, though very briefly, in his dictionary. And then, the meaning of Ksetrajna is confirmed from the verse following, i.e. verse 2 of Chap 13 of the BG, when Lord Krishna says, “know Me as the Ksetrajna in all ksetras”.
Thus, without translating “ksetra” itself for now, “Ksetrajna” means the “the sentience, or the enlivening principle, or the directing intelligence underlying the ksetra”. Note that a sense of “ordainment” is inbuilt into the meaning, in that this intelligence directs or “ordains” whatsoever happens concerning the ksetra.
And the Upadesa Saram first verse should translate as:
(From) the (Supreme) sentient-directing-principle-underlying-the-doer, comes the fruit.
How can karma be the Supreme Principle? Karma is insensient.
The foregoing would be my preferred interpretation of Kartrajna. However, to be fair, I must add further:
“kartr” itself, almost always refers to the doer, the embodied jiva. However, Bhagavan always maintained that the actual doer is God Himself; and that the jiva is but an instrument for the Divine Will. In that sense “Kartr” could refer to the Lord. Also, there is an obscure but completely valid usage of “Kartr” as the “Maker” or the “Creator of the world”, derived from the Satpatha Brahman actually. And again then, “Kartr” would mean God.
Take your pick folks, but either way, the first line of the verse means that - from the Lord, God, the Divine Principle, Brahman and so on, comes the fruit of karma as ordained.
Best wishes
Arvind,
Just like the Knower of Brahman is not different from Brahman-Knower of the Field is not apart from the Field-Knowing ,Being,Willing all are different aspects of the same thing.I do not see any difference between Knowing,Ordaining(Will)and Doing,as all are coexistent;as Sri Bhagavan clearly says that to abide in the place of Origin-This is Karma,this is Bhakti,This is Yoga,This is Jnana.
In the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna covers these aspects from different perspectives
All these differences are from the point of view the Sadhaka only.
In the Upadesa Sara,Sri Bhagavan is using KartrAjnayaya and not Kartrajnayaa,as is clear from listening to the chantings as well.You may read this as Euivalent to Kartrajna and may find some relevance,yet this is not the same as the original.
Whatever be it,we agree that all this refers to God,as obviously the Jiva cannot be the Ordainer of Fruits!
There is a beautiful old Tamil Film song (penned by the Gifted KannadAsan(that goes:
If all that is thought happens,
Daivam there is none!
If one keeps thinking about what happened
Peace there is none.
Namaskar.
Arvind/Friends,
The term Kshetrajna appears in Vishnu SahasranAmA in the very second verse:
pootaatmaa paramaatmaa cha muktaanaam paramaa gatih
avyayah purushah saakshee kshetrajno akshara eva cha.
Nama 16: Kshetrajnah
Sri Sankara has interpreted this name based on Bhagavad GItA Chapter
13 - slokas 1 and 2, in particular. Here, the word kshetra refers to
the body, and kshetrajna refers to One who knows (understands the
principle or tatva behind) all the bodies and is the direct witness
of the actions of all the bodies (by being directly inside the
bodies and not needing any secondary means to witness these). These
bodies are the fields in which seeds consisting of man's good and
bad deeds yield their fruits as enjoyments or suffering. As the
dwelling spirit is the knower of all these, He is called Kshetrajnah.
Bhagavat Gita says " ksetrajnam ca pi mam viddhi- know Me to be the
Knower of the Kshetra or the field, i.e. the body "
Here is an interesting story:
Acharya
sankara reached the feet of his Guru, Sri GovindapAda, and on
the bank of Narmada, the Nambootiri-boy from kaaladi got initiated
into the secrets of the Mahaavaakyas. At the end of his short but
intense study, sankara, the inspired missionary, wanting to fulfill
his glorious work, craved for the blessings of his teacher.
GovindapAda tested sankara by ordering him to write an
exhaustive commentary (BhAshya) upon the Vishnu SahasranAma. He
accomplished this great task and the very first work of the
Upanishadic commentator, sankara, thus came to see the light of the day.
All those who are familiar with Vishnu SahasranAma will find this interesting-the importance of chanting this wonderful Hymn.
Here is the link to the complete Vishnu Sahasra NAma:
http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/sri-vaishnava-forum/168211-sri-vishnu-sahasranamam-meaning.html
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Excellent song of Tayumanavar, with foot notes on various schools. Thanks. Sri Bhagavan did some reading of Tayumanavar in His pre-
Arunachala days. He liked him. What is the use of calling this and that? Someone asked Sri Bhagavan:
Whether should I be this or that? -
meaning sannyasi or grahastha, white robes or ochre robes. etc., etc.,
Sri Bhagavan said in reply: Nee
athuvai irukkanum ithuvai irukkanum enru ellam ninaikkathe! Nee ippozhudhu ethuvai irukkiaraayo athuvahave iru. Do
not think that you should be this and that. Be as what you are now and here. Tayumanavar says in some other song: The religion that teaches me, as to how to kill my mind, is my religion. Manam IRakka katRu tharum margam, en margam.
@Subramanian. R
Do you know „Bhagavan and Thayumanavar“ by David Godman and others?
Dear Clemens,
I do not know about this book. It
is not in the list of David's book that is given in the front page of
Padamalai. Or, is it an article in Mountain Path? I have no idea.
Dear Ravi,
About various paths and how they
confuse seekers, Saint Manikkavachagar also says, in PotRi
Tiru Ahaval, Lines 38 to 85, in
Tiruvachakam. He also says: When some one says he is there in this
tantram, and if one tries to seek it, He is hiding in another tantram...[Tiru Anda Pahuthi, Tiruvachakam, Lines 131-132. Ith
thanthiranthir kaandum enru irunthorku, ath thanthirathin avvayin oLithum....
Tantram = margam = schools
R.Subramanian/Ramos,
I am not very familiar with TiruvAchakam,except what we read in school as part of Tamil text.I will definitely lookup what you have kindly pointed out.
Yes,ThAyumAnavar is quite a favourite of mine and whenever I read him,I always relate to it in a deep way.In the UChipillaiyAr temple in Trichy,there used to be a wonderful picture painting of this sage in a sitting meditative posture(just behind the very first vinAyaka shrine at the entrance).
The article referred to by Ramos on ThAumAnavar by David and company is indeed a very fine one and reveals how Sri Bhagavan relished ThAyumAnavar's compositions,how he used to be moved to tears.
For me,the paripooranAnandam is one of the finest set of verses and the ending lines have a Mantric effect of expanding the consciousness-a sense of Vastness.
I also enjoy Reading his KarunAkarak KadavuL-(Gracious Lord that dances Blissfully in the chitsabha )and the ending lines have a Mantric effct of invoking the Divine Grace instantaneously.
-----------------------------------
You are truly blessed in being steeped in appreciation of the compositions of these Great ones.To read their compositions is to participate in their paens of Divine Love.What a Prvilege!
There is a Good Translation of Thayumanavar available which I am copying from,modifying it a bit,as I am not satisfied with the Translation.I understand that it is impossible to match the Original,yet it does give us a flavour of what it is like.Please refer to this site:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/thayumanavar/
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi,"I don't worship any Gods or Goddesses, but I do worship living consciousness"
What is the difference between consciousness and living consciousness?
I don't wish to make an issue of the above.
Just remember that people may read what you write with care and attention.
glow
R.Subramanian/Friends,
This song of thAyumAnavar from paripooranAnandam was very dear to my Great Grandpa(maternal).His daughter was sundarAmbal that Kunju Swami has mentioned in his 'enathu ninaivugal'(Reminiscences.I am told that Grandpa used to recite this aloud with tears streaming down his cheeks.Here ThAyumanavar wonders whether it is difficult for the Divine to devise a stratgy(Tantram-means)to gather his scattered mind!
ஆழாழி கரையின்றி நிற்கவிலை யோகொடிய
ஆலம்அமு தாகவிலையோ
அக்கடலின் மீதுவட அனல்நிற்க வில்லையோ
அந்தரத் தகி¢லகோடி
தாழாமல் நிலைநிற்க வில்யோ மேருவுந்
தனுவாக வளையவிலயோ
சத்தமே கங்களும் வச்ரதர னாணையில்
சஞ்சரித் திடவில்லையோ
வாழாது வாழவே இராமனடி யாற்சிலையும்
மடமங்கை யாகவிலையோ
மணிமந்த்ர மாதியால் வேண்டுசித் திகள்உலக
மார்கத்தில் வைக்கவிலையோ
பாழான என்மனங் குவியஒரு தந்திரம்
பண்ணுவ துனக்கருமையோ
பார்க்குமிட மெங்குமொரு நீக்கமறநிறைகின்ற
பரிபூர ணானந்தமே.
Are not the deep oceans contained without banks?
Did not the halahala poison turn into ambrosia?
Was not the Northern Fire *[1] contained in that Sea?
Are not the countless Orbs held in position in Spaces vast?
Was not the Mount Meru bent as a bow?
Did not the Seven Clouds flee at the command
of the mace bearing celestial King Indra?
Did not the Woman (Sabari) that lay dead as stone
re-live as a lovely damsel at the touch of Rama's feet?
Have not the miraculous siddhis been made possible
in this world through gems, mantras, etc
Is it then impossible for you to devise a trick
That can make my accursed mind to stop wandering?
Oh! Thou who filleth all visible space
In unbroken continuity!
Thou, the Bliss that is Perfect Full!
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Your mention about Tiruchy brings me nostalgic memories of my days in that town for 4 years for my graduation and post graduation. If my memory is correct, Tayumanvar's chitram is in ManikkaVinayaka temple
at the foot of the rock fort. Tayumanavar in fact was in Tiruchy
and even from young age he had siddhic powers. Once when he knew that Akhilandeswari's [tiruvanaika]
saree caught fire, he said; Quell the fire and was crushing his dhoti as if he was quelling the fire! In fact on that day, in the sanctum of Akhilandeswari, her sari had caught fire, due to the sparks flying and falling from the nearby lamp. I am having my old
copy of Tayumanavar songs, published by Sri Ramakrishna Tapovanam, Tiruparai thurai near
Tiruchy. I do not have a English
translation. I shall look for David's article soon. Taymanavar
had a mouna-guru, guru in silence.
He gave his teachings to Tayumanavar through silence. Siva
in the rockfort temple is also Tayumanavar or Matrubhuteswarar and
Mother is Sugandha Kundalambal or
Mattuvar Kuzhal Ammai. It is big temple said to have been built by
Koch Chengat Chozhan, and later imporoved by Pallavas and Naickers.
salutations to all:
Anonymous (z.):
1. you'd written "...Only a Bhagawan expert can confirm..."
there is only one bhagavAn expert i can think ok - aruNAchalA!!! :-)))
2. z. - don't know if the several comments by ravi, arvind, subramanian, sankar, broken yogi etc. answered or helped you. hopefully it did!
if your problem with a 'personal god' etc., is 'intellectual curiosity', then you may, depending on the level which could satisfy you, have to refer/read the upanishads etc. on the other, if your problem is something more fundamental, then please try vichAra - it works for one & all (works even if you don't have any 'faith' in it!); unlike what ravi hinted, vichAra is neither rational nor emotional (it saves one from both!), it's simple (nothing more can be said) :-)))
and if you think you will need any 'help' with vichAra, then the best is to read bhagavAn's writings (preferably don't read anybody's commentary - just the translation)
again & again & again... all commentaries are 'personal opinions' (including those of sankarA etc., - no exceptions) , hence read them for a healthy pleasure, if you wish to, nothing more :-) this surely doesn't imply that say you shouldn't ask/post questions on self-enquiry here but just be aware that no one here may be competent to clarify what vichAra is!
[folks: pardon me for the above statement if it wasn't ok with you, but i don't think anyone will disagree on the 'incompetency' issue)] :-)))
salutations to all:
there is only one bhagavAn expert i can think of - aruNAchalA!!! :-)))
Dear Ravi,
Tiruvachakam, which is also liked
by Sri Bhagavan, is another work
that would melt your heart. There are only 600+ songs and each one is a gem. It is easily understandable.
There are many English translations too right from Dr.G.U.Pope, a Jesuit Priest [made in 1900] in verse! He
had Tiruvachakam copy ever with him and before dying, he wanted his disciple to read a verse from
Adaikala Pathu [decad on surrender] and peacefully passed
away! This verse says:
Mavadu vahiranna kanni banga.....
Dear Ravi,
The verse from Adaikala Pathu is:
Mavadu vahinrenna kaNNi banga,
O the consort of the lady with eyes
like split baby mangoes,
Nin malaradikke kooviduvai,
kumbikke iduvai, nin kuRippu aRiyen,
You may call me to your flower decked feet, or place me in hell,
I do not know your chittam,
Pavidai aadu kuzhal pol, paranthu
karanthathu en uLLam,
My mind is getting tossed, here and
there, like a weaver's shuttle,
and I am dazed and I feel like weeping,
Aa keduven udayai adiyen nin adaikkalame,
O I am lost, O My Master, this
slave seeks surrender to You.
A few drops of tears rolled from
Dr. Pope's eyes and he passed away in peace.
R.subramanian,
Reading through my post on the Thayumanavar song,found this mistake which I had overlooked in the translation by Natarajanin this line,"Did not the Woman (Sabari) that lay dead as stone "
It is not sabari but Ahalya who became a stone and was restored to life by the touch of Sri Rama's feet.
Yes,you are right in referring to that chitram of ThAyumAnavar-that was the one that I mentioned.I also used to visit the Tirupparaithurai Ramakrishna Thapovanam and it was there that I got my first copy of 'My master'.The Regional engineering college where I studied(1973-78)had a wonderful library with rare spiritual books.The other source for Books used to be a second hand bookshop in the narrow street a little staggered from the Pillaiyar temple.That was where I came across a wonderful book 'Bases of Yoga' that introduced me to Sri Aurobindo.In my college I read 'A Search in Secret India' and 'Guru Ramana' and was introduced to Sri Bhagavan.I also came across complete works of Vivekananda-Swamiji was our Ideal and hero.(He still is!).Yet what profoundly moved me was the wonderful Life of The Holy Mother Sri Sarada Devi and Sri Ramakrishna.
So all that began in Trichy.During one of my visits to the Ramakrishna Tapovanam,I had the good fortune of having lunch(hand pound rice)with Swami Chidbhavananda and spend time with him.
I also have a copy of the Thayumanavar songs published by this asramam,a small handy book.I understand that the samadhi sthan of thayumanavar is taken care by the Branch of this tapovanam in Ramnad district.I understand that there is a tree there,where ThAyumAnavar had sat for meditation.
So this is all for now,enough of my rambling.
Thanks very much for the wonderful Tiruvachakam verse.
Namaskar.
Thanks Clemnens for Thayumanavaar's link.
Another unanswerable question.But I will ask it anyway.I have already asked this in the past on a different context.There is a contradiction in the following verse by Thayumanavaar.
O Supreme of Supremes!
Searching without searching who this ‘I’ was,
soon I found You alone
standing as the heaven of bliss,
You alone, blessed Lord.53
He says : I found You alone.
Isn't the above statement a paradox i.e I and You are two not one(alone)
A similar question is routinely put to Jnanis. How do you know you are realized.David also put this question to Sri Saradamma in the book 'No mind I am the Self'.
-z
"What is the difference between consciousness and living consciousness?"
I think the distinction I am pointing to here is that for most of us, consciousness is a passive conduit for experience, rather than something we pay attention to as a living element of our existence. We tend to focus on the objects of consciousness, and see those objects as living or not, rather than notice that all the "life" is in consciousness itself.
For example, when you question whether some God or Goddess is actually a living, sentient being, and state that you can't really worship one until you are sure there's a living being "out there" who fits these criteria, I sympathize with the problem. What do we really know about such beings? The only real "living being" we know of is our own consciousness. So I'm just suggesting we take that seriously - consciousness is alive, and we can know this directly by examining consciousness. "I" is just some kind of inference we make based on the living character of consciousness. Perhaps it's a false inference, that can be discovered by examining the "I" through self-enquiry, but what I'm suggesting is a bit different than that. Examine the source of "I", which is this living conscious being from which we conclude that "I" exists. Don't make any particular assumptions about the "I", or glorify the "I" because of this living consciousness, but simply give attention to and love to this living consciousness itself, regardless of what objects are seen by it. Let that be the God you worship and bow down to. At least then you know that the God you are bowing down to is real, even if you don't know much more than that. It's at least a start. And then you might find that this living consciousness actually teaches and instructs and helps you understand who you are, and what all this is.
That's not a bad way to go about worshipping God, is all I can say. If you are drawn to some particular form or deity, fine and good, but if you can't do that, it doesn't mean you can't still love and worship a real and living God through attention to your own consciousness.
Just making a blind suggestion here. Don't know if it makes any sense to you. But maybe just give it a try. Pay attention to the living quality and texture and substance of your own conscious awareness. See that it really is alive, and not just a passive conduit for objective experience. Who knows where that will take you? Maybe self-enquiry, maybe self-surrender, maybe just simple happiness. You never know till you give it a try.
Broken yogi/Friends,
It is not easy to express spiritual truth.The word consciousness is understood by the mind in a very simplistic way as if it is monochromatic.It is in fact a spectrum-leaning towards the insentient at one end and the Sentient at the other end and with all the shades in between.When it leans towards the insentient it seems to be passive and as it leans towards sentient it tends to come alive in an intense way(What is called Koti Soorya Prakasam-An intensity of millions of suns).
Now What is sentience?Are we sentient?Just because we breathe,are conscious of surroundings,are subject to emotions and thoughts does not entitle us to sentience(yes,to a degree we are).
There is a degree of 'Aliveness' or Life in the Physical life.There are moments when this crust is broken and we become aware of Deeper and deeper layers of Consciousness within us.
This may be triggered by some thing like an Ishta or a Hymn or like in the case of Brother lawrence,the sighting of a barren Tree,whatever-This results in the breaking of the barrier between the seen and the seer,which are then suffused with that shade of consciousness to which one is transported.To the degree the consciousness becomes subtle as different from the Gross physical that is common,the easier it is to do sadhana.
Most of the doubts are on account of the Gross physical consciousness that only gropes on the surface using the means of sensory perception and inference,and despite a valid and rational explanation still remains in a state of muted disbelief.
It is for this shift from the Gross physical consciousness to the subtle and infintely alive spiritual consciousness that Sadhana is required.It is only when the consciousness becomes refined and subtle that Spiritual truths can be understood and experienced.This is what is implied in shifting from Tamas to satva and this requires persistent efforts to throw out gross attachments and sustain the influx of Grace in the form of subtle consciousness through a vigilant Buddhi.
Whether someone looks outside or within,what matters is what 'quickens' the consciousness and makes it subtle and stable to experience Peace and love-for it is only when the oscillations or undulations subside that these are experienced.This Peace and Love is what is called 'God'-a Being that is all Love and Peace.
-----------------------------------
One of the best ways to express spiritual truths is to quote what Great Masters have said-and thus not bringing our 'mixture'.
Namaskar.
Dear Anon.,
My view is:-
The Thayumanavar statement is something like what Sri Bhagavan
has said in Verse 2 of Sri Arunachala Ashtakam. I came to see you, [as if I am different from You, that is a state of duality], then enquiring
within'Who is the seer?' I saw the seer disappearing and That alone stands for ever. No thought arose to say 'I saw'. How then could
the thought arise 'I did not see?'
The individual soul approaches the
Self with a sense of "I", causing duality. The "I" gets erased and
the Self alone remains.
@z
Another unanswerable question.But I will ask it anyway.I have already asked this in the past on a different context.There is a contradiction in the following verse by Thayumanavaar.
O Supreme of Supremes!
Searching without searching who this ‘I’ was,
soon I found You alone
standing as the heaven of bliss,
You alone, blessed Lord.53
He says : I found You alone. Isn't the above statement a paradox i.e I and You are two not one(alone). A similar question is routinely put to Jnanis. How do you know you are realized. David also put this question to Sri Saradamma in the book 'No mind I am the Self'.
Dear z, perhaps this answers your question. Replace mind by 'I':
Talk 99.
A sannyasi asked: It is said that the Self is beyond the mind and yet the realisation is with the mind. Mano na manute, Manasa na matam, and Manasaivedamaptavyam (The mind cannot think it. It cannot be thought of by the mind and the mind alone can realise it). How are these contradictions to be reconciled?
M.: Atman is realised with mruta manas (dead mind), i.e., mind devoid of thoughts and turned inward. Then the mind sees its own source and becomes That. It is not as the subject perceiving an object.
------------------
Wisdom all over the world says: Know yourself. 'Yourself' does not refer to God, whom we cannot know by the mind, but to the 'I'. The 'I', which definitely knows itself als the little 'I', automatically knows the self, the universal 'I'. If you know that you are a child you know to whom 'parents' refer to.
You cannot know you are realized. This is a way of talking. You can know and experience that you are nothing and all what exists at the same time, a part of the universal principle. The different sadhanas show the way to this knowledge and experience.
Ravi,
to experience Peace and love-for it is only when the oscillations or undulations subside that these are experienced.This Peace and Love is what is called 'God'-a Being that is all Love and Peace.
Thats true. I like to add here that there are a state of consciousness being described as 'no experience', 'absolut', 'non dual', like in deep sleep or absence of thought. In this state there does not happen any experience, there is pure being only. What about this state? It is often overlooked.
I mean that vedanta emphasizes that we need to understand how to exist forth in this states of consciousness 'where we don't exist' (i.e., without any objective consciousness of what we call 'I' and 'world').
This state in a natural way comprises 'death' also.
Talk 197.
M.: You need not eliminate the wrong ‘I’. How can ‘I’ eliminate itself? All that you need do is to find out its origin and abide there. Your efforts can extend only thus far. Then the Beyond will take care of itself. You are helpless there. No effort can reach it.
---------
This statements often makes the devotees get desperate. Do I have to make efforts or not?
The secret here is to make your sadhana and not do expect results. Simply do what you are ordered to do. True love for truth wants nothing else then the outmost pureness of this love. It is clear that where this true love is not there is a striving for 'results'.
z,
this answers your question as well:
Talk 28.
D.: If ‘I’ also be an illusion, who then casts off the illusion?
M.: The ‘I’ casts off the illusion of ‘I’ and yet remains as ‘I’. Such is the paradox of Self-Realisation. The realised do not see any contradiction in it. Take the case of bhakti - I approach Iswara and pray to be absorbed in Him. I then surrender myself in faith and by concentration. What remains afterwards? In place of the original ‘I’, perfect self-surrender leaves a residuum of God in which the ‘I’ is lost. This is the highest form of devotion (parabhakti), prapatti, surrender or the height of vairagya.
Hello.It getting colder in Japan
I want to read Bhagavan's original works which were not translated.Should I learn Tamil language.Or to learn Sanskrit language is better?
Thank you
Ramos,
"as 'no experience', 'absolut', 'non dual', like in deep sleep or absence of thought. In this state there does not happen any experience, there is pure being only. What about this state? It is often overlooked."
This is not a problem for me,nor do I aspire for this.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
'I am He', 'I am the Pure Self'-that is the conclusion of the jnanis. But the bhaktas say,
'The whole universe is the glory of God.' Who would recognize a wealthy man without his
power and riches? But it is quite different when God Himself, gratified by the aspirant's
devotion, says to him, 'You are the same as Myself.' Suppose a king is seated in his court,
and his cook enters the hall, sits on the throne, and says, 'O King, you and I are the same!'
People will certainly call him a madman. But suppose one day the king, pleased with the
cook's service, says to him: 'Come, sit beside me. There is nothing wrong in that. There is
no difference between you and me.' Then, if the cook sits on the throne with the king, there
is no harm in it. It is not good for ordinary people to say, 'I am He'. The waves belong to the
water. Does the water belong to the waves?"
-----------------------------------
As I understand , many of these words have a totally different meaning than what is generally understood.For instance,does it really matter to know whether the 'I' exists in Sleep state or not,as long as one is able to sleep well.The existence of a 'I' is not at all a problem as long it is the 'devotee I' as Sri Ramakrishna calls it.
We will cross the bridge when we come to it.
Namaskar.
Neem Karoli Baba: one evening in Kainchi one other devotee and I were sitting with Maharajji. The other devotee waas reading the newspaper to Maharajji in a dull monotone. I thought to myself "how can you bear this boring man? Why do you put up with him at all?" Slowly I began to experience the most incredible love welling up in my being, greater and greater love until I felt my heart would burst. Just then Maharajji simply put his hand on my head, and the sensation stopped. When I tried once more to recapture it, I couldn't. I looked up at Maharajji and he was smiling at me, filled with compassion.
Dear Clemens,
The mind killing the mind has also
been described by Sri Bhagavan in
Sri Arunachala Ashtakam, Verse 5.
"Like the string that hold together the gems, in a necklace, You it is that penetrate and bind all beings
and the various religions. If, like a gem that is cut and polished, the separate mind is whetted on the grindstone of pure Universal Mind, it will acquire the light of your Grace and shine like a Ruby whose brightness is not flawed by any other object. When once the light of the Sun has fallen on a sensitive plate, will the plate register another picture?
Apart from you, O Aruna Hill, bright, auspicious does any other
thing exist?"
Dear shiba,
All Bhagavan's original works including His Stray Verses, and teachings in prose are available only in Tamizh. Most of them, have of course, been translated in English. Hence, your age, time, and enthu permitting you can learn Tamizh. Otherwise the available English translations can be read. There is no point in learning Sanskrit since excepting Sri Arunachala Pancharatnam, He did not write any other work, except some stray verses, in Sanskrit.
Here, I remember my college days friend who spent 2 years in studying Russian to read War and
Peace in original.
Friends,
ThAyumAnavar's KarunAkara KadavuL:
துள்ளுமறி யாமனது பலிகொடுத் தேன்கர்ம
துட்டதே வதைகளில்லை
துரியநிறை சாந்ததே வதையாம் உனக்கே
தொழும்பன்அன் பபிடேகநீர்
உள்ளுறையி லென்னாவி நைவேத்தி யம்ப்ராணன்
ஓங்குமதி தூபதீபம்
ஒருசால மன்றிது சதாகால பூசையா
ஒப்புவித் தேன்கருணைகூர்
தெள்ளிமறை வடியிட்ட அமுதப் பிழம்பே
தெளிந்ததே னேசீனியே
திவ்யரச மியாவுந் திரண்டொழுகு பாகே
தெவிட்டாத ஆனந்தமே
கள்ளன் அறி வூடுமே மெள்ளமெள வெளியாய்க்
கலக்கவரு நல்லஉறவே
கருதரிய சிற்சபையி லானந்த நிர்த்தமிடு
கருணா கரக்கடவுளே.
My mind that frisked like a lamb, I sacrificed.
No more the evil gods of karma for me.
To Thee who is the God of Peace
Filled with the purity of Void
I have become the sole serf.
With love as the consecrating waters for Thy worship,
With life as the outstretched oblation,
With prana as the flaming incense and light -
Thus have I dedicated my worship,
Not for once, but as constant performance.
Oh! Thou, Mass of Ambrosia
That has been distilled clear by Vedas!
Oh! The Liquid Syrup that has been distilled
From pure honey, sugar and diverse delicious juices!
Oh! Rapture that does not satiate!
Oh! Thou Goodly Love that comes to commingle,
Slowly piercing the darkness of the intellect.
Thou, the God of Compassion Fullness
That dances in rapture in the chit sabha
Defying description!
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
I went through the mountainman blog
and was surprised to see the entire
Thayumanavar rendered in English free verse. A Herculean work indeed. Great people with ardent spiritual pursuits are living all over the world!
However, if one knows a fair amount of classical Tamizh, it is better to read Swami Chidbhavananda's Tamizh
collections, where he has given some brief meanings also for hard words.
R.Subramanian,
The Translation is by Dr B Natarajan,Chennai and published by the Himalayan Academy.You may read the biography of ThAyumAnavar here:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/tayumanavar/life-story.html
The Other site has not properly acknowledged the Translator of these wonderful Hymns of ThAyumAnavar.As you have rightly said:a Truly Herculean effort.
I had those books of Swami Chidbhavananda on Thayumanavar songs-I found his explanation too long winding and desciptive.It somehow misses the beauty and devotional fervour of these compositions.A little knowledge of Tamil and Sanskrit will do to enjoy ThAyumAnavar's compositions without any interpretation!
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
It is my hunch that this Dr B Natarajan may be Yogi ShuddhAnanda Bharati.
This is the introducion of Dr BN.
"The World was my open book and Inner quest my deep study.
Who am I in the vastness of cosmic phenomenon?
The Mystery Car of Time takes me round changeful seasons;
Destiny leads the play of Life blind-folding me in self-oblivion.
" Who am l? What am I? Whence am I ?
What is beyond the entry and exit in this amphitheatre of Existence?
Who feels in the senses and thinks in the mind and dreams in my fancy?"
Such were my self-reflections during my school days. I kept aloof from home, society, and noisy crowds taking delight in inner communion. Home and school resented my dreamy mood and crazy solitude. One day I was treated harshly by my kith and kin. I ran for refuge to the temple and there hugged the feet of God. I surrendered my life into the hands of the Divine Grace. '0 Grace, I take refuge at Thy feet. Lead me to Light from this dark vale of tears. Reveal to me the mystery of life and its mission. Keep me here to fulfil that mission and call me back to be with Thee". I sobbed in a frenzy of spontaneous fervour. I felt a warm current traversing my heart and brain and a descent from above which continues to this day. I was reborn in the Grace and could now understand the meaning of life and the language of the soul.
I sat in a dark corner of the temple forgetting body and world when a song attracted me to the lotus tank nearby There, in the bright moon light, some monks were singing together a song that touched my soul.
"The Silent One possessed me in Silence
and poured into me a speechless word
that was the seed of wisdom.
That word, O friend. had a magic effect on my life.
It hushed up the mind and opened my heart to silent embrace of the Divine ".
So on went the song which brought me peace and joy. I learnt from the monks the song and for the first time knew about its author, Sage Thayumanavar. I secured a copy of his works and treasured it in my bosom. The Hymns of Sage Thayumanavar became the guiding light of my life. I still believe that the Divine Grace gave a silent friend to my Pilgrim Soul.
The hymns of Thayumanavar removed my gloom and solved my mental problems. It unravelled the riddle of existence. Each line was a message and each message a vision of Truth. Each truth was a spark of intuition and each intuition had a transforming force. The style of Thayumanavar was limpid, simple, straight, bright, profound and sweet. It flowed from the abundance of Soul's delight in rapturous union with the Beloved. Every hymn is a gem of divinity. It is an enchanting flute-voice of the soul that touches all souls. The poet was song and the song the poet. This is the message of the Seer Poet:
The unique One pervades all beings. All are one in that.
It is the Life of lives, the One that moves in many names and forms.
It is beyond the mental conceptions of caste, creed and religion.
Ascetic or householder, all have a right to live in its consciousness.
Come collectively to enjoy the bliss of life in the Divine Grace.
Call with deep love; the Grace shall pour itself from above."
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
I think the same B. Natarajan has
translated Tirumandiram, 3000 verses, in English free verse. This book was bought by me from Sri Ramakrishna Math, Bangalore. He must be a versatile Saiva Siddhanti as well as Siva-advaiti. In fact,
Tirumandiram is a much tougher work and his English versification helps us somewhat I should say.
I am not sure whether Yogi Suddhananda Bharati is same as B.
Natarajan. In the same way Ribhu
Gita has been rendered in English
free verse by Nome and Dr. Ramamurthy. This is also an excellent work.
Dear Ravi,
Tirumoolar plays with the mantra
Namasivaya, in several verses.
He is the uncreated Lord, Para Para, Great for worlds all,
In the sphere of Muladhara, He stands as Na-ma-si-va-ya.
In the sphere of Fire, He stands as
Na-ma-va-si-ya.
In the sphere of Sun, He stands as
Va-si-ya.
In the Sphere of Moon, He stands
as Va-si [Song 890, Tantra 4].
Thank you very much for your reply, Subramanian. R.
There are few books for learning Tamil language in Japan.But I eager to learn Tamil.I think it is worth struggling to learn it and I would like to sing Tamil parayana with understanding the words of the songs.
thank you
Shiba,
"I think it is worth struggling to learn it and I would like to sing Tamil parayana with understanding the words of the songs."
Friend,I am wonderstruck at your earnestness.Yes,it is truly worth it-to sing Tamil pArAyana with understanding.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Thanks Subramanian.I have never noticed this verse. Very relevant to the present discussion.Following is a translation of the second verse of Arunachala Ashtakam from ‘The Complete Works’ published by Ramanasram
‘Who is the seer?’ When I sought within, I watched
the disappearance of the seer and what survived him. No
thought of ‘I saw’ arose; how then could the thought ‘I did
not see’ arise? Who has the power to convey this in word
when even Thou (appearing as Dakshinamurti) couldst do so
in ancient days by silence only? Only to convey by silence
Thy (transcendent) state Thou standest as a hill, shining from
heaven to earth.
Here Bhagawan says, “No thought of ‘I saw arose’ meaning the personal ‘I’ was no more”. Then he says, “how then could the thought ‘I did not see ‘arise”.By ‘I did not see’ he means ‘Self Realization’??.So he is trying to say that the thought of Self Realization did not occur either.He further adds that this paradox can never be communicated.
So it can never be answered according to Bhagawan as he says’ who has the power to convey when even Dakshinamurhti could not. But I guess, the function of ‘Memory’ continues during ‘THAT’ state. Because when a Jnani describes it to us, ajnanis, it is only from memory/impression.He may not be conscious of memory during ‘Being’ but the recording is actually going on. Now the question is ‘who’ is it that is recording??This is my question.I have my doubts when they say the function of 'Memory' is also part of Mind.
-z
Following my discussion on the recording(function of memory) that goes on even during 'Being':
Tape recorders and video recorders do not need an 'Ego' for the acutal function of recording.But Man(Ego) can manipulate(direct/control) a tape/video recorder for his ends. I think this is the case with the memory.As soon as a Jiva is born recording goes on till his physical death even in the case of a Jnani during Being.But in the case of Jnani 'the false continuity(Ego)' is absent but the external situation(demand) is what controls recording in a Jnani and not Ego.The only difference between a Jnani and an Ajnani is this lack of false continuity.This false continuity(Ego) is nothing but not brooding over the past nor worrying about the future but living in the present moment.By living in the present moment it means responding to the environment(demand). For eg: A questioner asks a doubt; he answers and goes back to nishta; someouter situation makes him cry, angry; shows his relavant emotion and goes back to nishta; but there is no hanging over the feelings.
Back to Memory.This could explain how a Jnani is able to tell something about his 'Being' to us.But the explaination differs for each Jnani depending on his abilities(intellect,memory, linguistic,worldly knowledge and such personal capabilites) which UG called background.But as Bhagawan says 'THAT state' is exactly the same for all. I suspect if Bhagawan was asked the same questions in his early days of 'Self Realization' he would not have been able to explain it to us so clearly as did in later years.As after that he happened to read books, see more of the world(film projector simile etc) he could explain to us better in later years in our language(our worldly similes and understanding).This is the explaination of the grades from the point of the view of 'Ajnani', of Jnanis:Brahmavid and so on.So his personal abilities are the greatest when compared with other Jnanis making him a Brahmavid.
Needless to say all this is only my understanding and may not be the actual.
-z
z,
"as Bhagawan says 'THAT state' is exactly the same for all"
"In the ultimate state, all jackals howl in the same way"-Sri Ramakrishna.
What Sri Ramakrishna says seems to be a very homely ,village patois.
Yet this is how the Taitriya Upanishad ends,if we know the chant.It goes-haaaooo,haaaaooo.haaoo;ahamannam,ahamannam,ahamannam;ahamannadOOOOoh!ahamanaadOOOOoh!ahaman nadaha!
In other words all intellectual content is dropped and sound is bereft of the usual meaning-only a joyous expression that trails off in silence.
Namaskar.
Well hold on Dan, my friend,...to take from another "practitioner"
(Douglas Harding interviewed by K. Pillay)
KP: There is a kind of paradox, isn't there, that one has to practise
to be what one is naturally?
DH: Yes, well you practise to really get rid of the illusion, not to
achieve the Reality.
KP: Yes, that is a very important point, because in the spiritual
supermarket that has mushroomed over the last 20-25 years, there
seems to be a constant movement to achieve some extraordinary state,
and you're directly the opposite. Would you not say that we're really
practising only to remove the illusion?
DH: That's right. All of us are living from this. Ramana kept saying
everyone's living from this, everyone's enlightened. Everyone is
firmly stationed, where else could they be but in the natural state.
Friends,
ThAyumAnavar's clarion call to humanity - like the crow calling other crows when it sees Food to feed on:
காகம் உறவு கலந்துண்ணக் கண்டீர் அகண்டா காரசிவ
போக மெனும்பே ரின்பவெள்ளம் பொங்கித்ததும்பிப் பூரணமாய்
ஏக வுருவாய்க் கிடக்குதையோ இன்புற் றிடநாம் இனிஎடுத்த
தேகம் விழுமுன் புசிப்பதற்குச் சேர வாருஞ் சகத்தீரே.
The Crows bunching together and feeding-You have seen.
Verily, verily
The vast inundation of Heavenly Bliss
That is Cosmic Siva Bhoga
Overfloweth in fullness of perfection
In stream undivided.
Let us, ere this body falleth to ground,
Go and drink of it in rapturous desire.
Do Come, ye men of the world.
-----------------------------------
It is impossible to capture the earnest tone of the Original Tamil!
Namaskar.
Dear Anon,
Very nice to hear you again. The
second verse completes the process
of Self realization. Though already
self realized, Sri Bhagavan had a small disquieting thought of coming to Arunachala and look at its Greatness. ARivinai
maruL uruthu aruhinil eerka.... Arunachala wanted Him to come to Him. Thus He came. He saw. But no one remained to say I saw or I did not see. Only That was. Here the process is complete. Sri
Ramana was there in that Sahaja
Nirvikalpa Samadhi for the remaining 54 years.
Dear Anon,
It is the usual doubt that all of us
have. How can Sri Bhagavan, after
Self realization and attaining an egoless state, write poems, talk to people, have memory of the past, eat and sleep? Muruganar answers this point in Verse 924 of Guru Vachaka Kovai: I declare that even when the mind, in the form of thoughts, ceases to function, something remains. That something is the Reality. Manifesting as Time, it operates in a hidden way, abiding always as the temple of consciousness-bliss.
Your gramaphone recorder example is quite good excepting that the recorder is insentient whereas a Jivan Mukta is sentient.
Dear Ravi,
Yes. What you say about Taittiriya
Upanishad chanting is quite right.
Brahmasri Nochur Venkataraman also
mentions this. In the olden days,
after fire sacrifices, finally ritviks used to put the wooden ladles, mugs [that used to contain
ghee, soma banam etc.,], and spoons
also into the fire. Finally they used to burn the sacrifice-hall also! And then say in chorus, haahaa, hoohoo, hmmmm.... This
is symbolic of sacrificing every
possession and then taking rest after the event is over. Paul Brunton asked Sri Bhagavan: Am I
to leave all my possessions? Sri
Bhagavan said smilingly: The possessor too! Sri Bhagavan went
one step further than the rishis!
Sombiyai summa sukam undu uRangidil sol veru en gathi Arunachala! [Sri AAMM-37]. "If I slumber in quiet repose enjoying the Bliss of Being, what other moksha is there, tell me, O Arunachala!
Hi Subramaniam, Ravi, Z, folks,
The Astakam verse 2 is one of the most enigmatic and complex pieces written by Sri Bhagavan. On this one, a tome could be written and still not peel away its layers of meaning.
It is also almost doctrinal in its theme because it hits at the root of all dualistic systems which hold that, “there is always a cognizer” whatever the exalted state you might be in. Some dualistic classical texts somewhat admit that the world disappears when Self or God Realization is achieved. But then they go on to say that in that state there is still an entity which is capable of cognizing the disappearance of the world and express it as “I did not see”.
And what Bhagavan is making clear is that there is no subject-object relationship in That State. Also, lest it be said that if ‘I saw’ is not there, then its negation may exist, it is clarified that the negation ‘I did not see’ also does not survive. Only the Self is, no cognizer, nothing to cognize or not cognize and no cognition itself.
Part II
Re: “It is the usual doubt that all of us have. How can Sri Bhagavan, after Self realization and attaining an egoless state, write poems, talk to people, have memory of the past, eat and sleep?”
Well, the simple answer to this question is, that Sri Bhagavan does NOT write poems, talk to people, have memory of the past and so on. It is only to us, who are of the world, that IT APPEARS AS IF Bhagavan has a body and is doing all these things. The state of Self Realization and the state of an entity in the world are poles apart. We assume that Sri Bhagavan is also just like us and thus must be using the mechanisms of thought and action as exist in the world to be doing what He does. Not so. And that is also what He Himself repeatedly averred.
Best Wishes
Ravi, As I understand , many of these words have a totally different meaning than what is generally understood.For instance,does it really matter to know whether the 'I' exists in Sleep state or not,as long as one is able to sleep well.The existence of a 'I' is not at all a problem as long it is the 'devotee I' as Sri Ramakrishna calls it.
I mean that it is not an answer on the question, Ravi, because this 'devotee I' is absent in deep sleep or other states like that.
But let it be so. There is no need to discuss different views of the same thing.
As for me I will step back from further discussions a while (or hopefully forever). I admit that discussions never made sense for me. I have no questions and my answers doesn't matter. I always found and find the answers on my own questions by myself and with the help of the Holy Sciences. It's better to ask myself: Why do you still participate in discussions? It's a question of self enquiry.
Anyway it is great to find so many ardent devotees here.
Ramos,
I appreciate your earnestness.The point that I made was that whatever is necessary for Growth will be taken care by the Divine.No need to bother about it.Spiritual living begins when one drops all goals.Love and Peace are not Goals.Droping the 'I' may or may not happen.One cannot make it a Goal.It is not a problem for me.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Ramos,
" because this 'devotee I' is absent in deep sleep or other states like that."
It is not absent;It is only dormant.
I am aware of the Traditional Advaitic position that pursues this line of arguement.
For the Devotee,it is something lke this-Even if the child goes to sleep,the Divine Mother is ever awake;and this is what matters.
Namaskar.
For the Devotee,it is something like this - Even if the child goes to sleep,the Divine Mother is ever awake;and this is what matters.
That's true for the devotee, Ravi, but actually this devotee does not exist in this other states of consciousness. What is it what exists then? It is obviously a perception of the waking consciousness to say: I am a child and there is the mother, isn't it?
The world depends on the experience of the waking consciousness. But immersed in water we cannot open our mouth, as Ramana once said. I like to know how someone here experiences and understands such states of consciousness?
In psychology they divide consciousness into
subconscious and superconscious; is that just a trick of
the mind ?
~ Yes, a trick of the mind . There is only consciousness.
Consciousness expresses itself in objects. When you
see that every object flows out from consciousness ,
then there are no more "objects" , there is only
consciousness. The object loses its objectivity the
moment it refers to consciousness.
glow
I think the question 'How do I know'[that I am Realized] is the 'Last Cause' just like we have 'First Cause'.As 'First Cause' can never be known so do the 'Last Cause' as the mind rises and dissolves simultaneously with these.
Ofcourse on all matters like these, as always it is only my guess from reading books and posts on this blog.
LET ME WISH YOU ALL THE VERY BEST FOR A HAPPY NEW YEAR.
-z
Ramos,
As I have said,this is not a problem for me.I can appreciate other positions/arguements.As I have said,I am not after any such 'State'.
Namaskar.
Dear Clemens Ramos,
Yes. In deep sleep also the I-I is.
But the I-I is not realized in sleep. Because sleep is a state of
ignorance. All the same, deep sleep
or sushupti is an important tool to
understand self inquiry. It all started from Gaudapada, who called
Prajna. Sri Sankara used it extensively. Sri Bhagavan gives the example of sushupti in about 90 occasions in Talks. The Self, has to be realized in wakeful state, and the bliss of the Self in deep sleep is only a foretaste,
with the ego not yet fully annihilated. The ego rises its ugly head as soon as one wakes up with the I-thought. As soon as one wakes up, for about 2 or 3 minutes,
even without getting down from the bed, one should inquire, 'Where was I about one hour back? How was I about one hour back? Why this I-thought did not come up there at all at that time. This is one of the techniques before pursuing self inquiry.
Dear Anon,
How to express I am self realized?
It is inexpressible. Sri Bhagavan
said on one or two occasions: I
had a feeling that I was having some disease, but a pleasant disease! I think it is Tayumanavar who said: The young bride comes out of the nuptial room in the early morning to have a bath. Anxious parents are waiting outside. Relatives are also there. What will she say about her 'experience'? She does not say anything to anyone but merely smiles a bit at her mother
and rushes to the back yard for bath!
Imagine that this metaphor has been given by an ascetic saint!
Sri Bhagavan has also said: It is like a thief stung by a scorpion in the dark room at night, where he was there to steal something. How can he cry? How can he express his pain and misery? In the case of realization, it is bliss and not misery. But the situation is the same.
salutations to all:
subramanian: you said ..."As soon as one wakes up, for about 2 or 3 minutes, even without getting down from the bed, one should inquire, 'Where was I about one hour back? How was I about one hour back? Why this I-thought did not come up there at all at that time. This is one of the techniques before pursuing self inquiry..."
did bhagavAn say this??? am sorry but i don't think bhagavAn prescribed any such questions to be put prior to vichAra. if this is your own particular way of doing it, then it's fine; otherwise, please 'qualify', for such statements only end up confusing the few who may read this blog for some kind of assistance in their vichAra. self-enquiry, if relied on bhagavAn's words alone, is simple but the moment one gets into all these unnecessary interpretations made by others (again no exceptions - sAdhu Om and everybody else included), it somehow loses its directness & simplicity, and worse still, gets all messed up.
let me also humbly request that those who don't practise vichAra on a daily basis should refrain from commenting anything about it :-)
"let me also humbly request that those who don't practise vichAra on a daily basis should refrain from commenting anything about it"
Bhagavan did not practise vichara on a daily basis. :-)
Ramprax/s,
Did Bhagavan practise Vichara?:)))
He does not have a right to even read what is posted here.
If he Practises atleast for a day,he will earn that right:)))
Good one Ramprax.
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan did not recommend this
type of early morning inquiry, but this is as prescribed by Brahmasri Nochur Venkataraman, and I am following it since 2008. This makes one understand the deep sleep, where there is no I thought [though ego has not been annihilated.]. Sri
Bhagavan only recommended to observe
the interval between two thoughts.
Nochur's prescription is helping me.
I do not practice vichara daily.
Incidentally Brahmasri Nochur Venkataraman's understanding of
Sri Bhagavan has been appreciated by Mr. Ganesan [Sri Bhagavan's
younger brother's grandson] and he
is invited to give many short discourses on Sri Bhagavan's teachings. He did one on Sri Ramana Gita - Hrudaya Vidya recently in the Samadhi Hall. He has also done ULLadu Narpadu for 7 days in Tiruvannamalai, but I am not sure whether it was inside the Asramam. He is considered as one who has understood Sri Bhagavan's teachings thoroughly and one who has also been putting that into practice. His CDs on ULLadu Narpadu, Sri Arunachala Pancharatnam [on discourses made in Chennai] are sold in the Asramam. In Chennai, he has completed 36 slokas of ULLadu Narpadu 5 years of 7 days each, upto 2009. The last 4 slokas might have been completed recently. He is doing it in every December 2010. He has brought out a first Malayalam biography of Sri Ramana. So much for authenticity for the method I am adopting.
salutations to all:
ramprax/ravi:
hahahahaha... oh yes, how i too wish to be done with it & not having to 'practise vichAra daily' :-)))
all comments here & elsewhere are only for those who are still seeking, and not for the self (bhagavAn)... by that token, bhagavAn never had any 'right' to talk about unreality :-)))
let me re-phrase (though somebody will yet spot a flaw in it):
"let me also humbly request that seekers who seek the truth/self/freedom/god/love/peace and who don't practise vichAra on a daily basis should refrain from commenting anything about it"
btw, hope it's obvious from the above that 'seeker' includes the so-called bhakta looking/relying for his nonsensical 'god' :-)
R.Subramanaian,
Yes,Sri Nochur Venkataraman is indeed a great soul.His Talks are a rare blend of Jnana and Bhakti.
I understand that he has given talks on Appar,Sambandar and the other 63 Saivaite Saints.His Bhagavatham is 'fried in butter and soaked in Honey'(As Sri Ramakrishna described Srimad Bhagavatham).
Namaskar.
To me, listening to Nochur is deep meditation. I am able to listen to him forever, there is no sense of tiredness, mental fluctuations, etc...
It a Shravanam and Mananam and Nidhidhyasanam. He is able to take me through. I consider him one of the highest authority in our times on Bhagavan on "Sat" or "Satyam" or "Ulladu" or "teachings"
He talks from his own experience with his "anubhuti" and not a simple mere intelectual exercise, hence he is able to penetrate deep into the Hrithaya Kuharam.
Brahmasri Nochur Venkataraman spoke
on Sri Dakshinamurty Stotram for 7
in Bangalore in last September. The
Satsangh started at 7 am and went on upto 8 am. About 100 people had assembled in that morning. He said that Sri Dakshinamurty Stotram is only a poem of Sri Bhagavan's Nan Yaar. His discourse covered anecdotes from Sri Ramana's life for every stanza of Sri DMS. He said during the course of the satsangh:
1. Do not take notes. Listen attentively. Then it will go to your heart and not to the brain.
2. Read Nan Yaar daily. Don't memorize that little book. Read everyday as if you are reading for the first time. Contemplate on every sentence.
3. If you cannot practice self inquiry, chant some mantra, like Arunachala Siva, Arunachala Siva, daily whenever you have time in between the work. Chant after going to bed, till you go fast asleep. Get up chanting Arunachala Siva a few times and then understand your state just one hour before your waking up.
4. Read Talks or some other books of Sri Bhagavan's conversations with full attention.
5. Listen to Sri Arunachala Stuti Panchakam, at least one or two songs everyday through the Asramam's approved CD.
These things will help you in controlling thoughts, and annihilating the ego in due course.
I also attended his 7 day discourse on Sri Sankara Vaibhavam. There again, he quoted innumberable anecdotes from Sri
Bhagavan's life and comparing the teachings of Sri Sankara and Sri
Bhagavan. He calls Verse 26 as
Hrudaya Sthanam of ULLadu Narpadu
and should be read everyday and contemplated upon.
Post a Comment