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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 906 Newer› Newest»Subramanian Said:
"Nambi is the commmon surname for ancient Saivites."
Sir,
Did you mean to say "ancient Vasihnavaites?"
Ravi you are right there is no comparison.
The point I'm making is that psychotherapy has really crept into advaita.
Even though it sounds good the search for the sacred always stems from yearning and sorrow.
Dear Anon,
By Saivites I meant Siva worshippers and they will not worship Vishnu. Vaishnavites are those who worship only Vishnu and not Siva. Advaita transcended both the philosophies and
perched itself on Non dual brahman.
Brahman is non form, non name. All gods are anthramorphic gods. Having forms and names. Whereas Brahman is Consciousness, the Self. Muruganar with the approval of Bhagavan used the word Sivam to denote Consciousness, non dual Self. Gaudapada says: We have no quarrel with anyone. Call It by any name. It will only take you to non dual Sivam. Gaudapada had difference of opinion only with
Buddhists and Jains. Sri Sankara Vijayam speaks about Sri Sankara's
debate with Saivites and Vaishnavites to prove that all worships would take you only to Nondual Consciousness. That way, he called Panduranga as Brahman and Kasi Viswanatha as Brahman, in his prayer songs. There is one funny anecdote. One Saivite and one Vaishnavite had tongue tiring debate as to who was the greater god. At night, in a house they slept side by side and put their hands on each other in deep sleep. All gods disappear in deep sleep. In deep sleep, mind is in suspended animation and only the Self is there.
Dear Anon,
Nevertheless, there could be Ishta
Devata, a god which is most dear to
you. I have Siva as Ishta Devata, but have no qualms in reading Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam. My wife's
Ishta Devata is Guruvayurappan, Krishna of Guruvayoor. But she also visits Tiruvannamalai along with me. Both of us are advaitis. Today in the modern South Indian society,
such differences are slowly disappearing. In North India, there is no such differences excepting in certain pockets like
Ayodhya, Mathura etc., In West Bengal they worship Devi as Ishta Devata and at the same time they are not Saktas, they worship Krishna and Siva too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DYA1raD-YY
Subramanaian,
There was never any conflict for the true devotee between form and formlessness-Siva-sivam represent these aspects;So does Govinda and Govindam mean the same(Like in Sri Sankara's Bhaja Govindam).
Sri Sankara re-established the " Shanmatham" -- Worship related to
six forms as revealed in our Vedas and as per this the PARA BRAHMAN
can be mediated in any of these SIX FORMS. They are ;
GAnapathyam, KowmAram , Sowram, Vaishnavam , Shaivam and
ShAkthm.
The following Prayer on Lord Ganesha is well known:
"Aum shuklambaradharam vishnum
Shashivarnam chaturbhujam
Prasanna vadanam dhyayet
Sarva vighnopa shantaye
Aum, attired in white and all-pervading,
O moon-hued, four-shouldered One
with smiling face so pleasing,
upon You we meditate
for removing all obstacles.
Shri Adi Sankara prayed in his Ganesha Bhujangam the following invocation. It is particularly suitable for recitation before japa and deep meditation on the highest wisdom of Lord Ganesha, the incomparable Lord:
To You whom the wise exclaim
as the single-syllabled, Supreme sound,
stainless and peerless,
bliss, formless, unconditioned --
the Indweller in the core of
sacred tradition -- to that
Primeval One I bow in adoration.
-----------------------------------Please note VISHNUM(in that prayer to Ganesha) means all pervading,same way the jiva can either become(is) BrAHMAM(brahma+am)or SIVAM or VISHNUM and all these mean the same.
Here is a simple article on the glory of worship of the wonderful pillaiyar(the son god).
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/lg/lg_ch-11.html
Also all the Four foremost of the saivaite Saints appar,Sambandar,sundarar and Manickavachakar and also Tirumoolar acknowledged the Vedas as the supreme source of all Knowledge.So did all the Vaishnavite saints.
I enjoy all these aspects,and the Infinite has infinite names and forms,hence the Sahasra namam(1000 Names).There is absolutely no confusion with regard to this.
Namaskar.
Subramanaian,
"I have Siva as Ishta Devata, but have no qualms in reading Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam."
To have no qualms perhaps is not the right expression.
Sri Sankara in his Bhaja Govindam says:
geyam gitánámasahasram
dhyeyam sripatirüpam ajasram
neyam sajjana-sañge cittam
deyam dinajanáya ca vittam(27)
The Bhagavadgitá and the Sahasranáma(vishnu) should be sung; the form of the Lord of sri(Lakshmi) (Vishnu) should always be meditated on; the mind should be led to the company of the good; and wealth should be distributed among the indigent.
You are only doing what is recommended in reciting the Vishnu Sahasranamam-This is splendid sadhana.your name is 'subramanian'(Lord Muruga).So Siva, Vishnu and Kaumaram are already there.Since Siva also includes uma,you have shAktam as well!In chanting Vishnu sahasranamam which starts with Shuklam bharadaram vishnum ,you have the invocation to lord Gnapathy as well.
If you include Aditya Hridayam as well,you have covered it all!(the six primeval forms of worship).
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Shanmathas were founded by Sri
Sankara only for seekers who want
to start with pujas, worships,
rituals etc., This is religion.
The philosophy is different. Philosophy of Sri Sankara embraces
all aspects of worship with forms since ulitmately they lead to non dual consciousness. Yes. Sri Sankara has used Vishnum to mean all pervading and Sivam to mean
all-auspicious.
I said I had not qualms in reading Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam only to highlight that I am an advaiti and till I reach that state of non dual consciousness, I should continue hand in hand worships of all forms. Siva is called Mukundapriya and Vishnu is called Siva-sakya. [friend of Siva].
Siva Sahasranamam says Om Vishnave Namah: [621]
Vishnu Sahasranamam says Om Parameswaraya Namah: [377].
But commentators may give meanings
to imply all pervading, in the form of Vishnu, god of all gods,
in the form of Iswara-Siva.
The simple meaning is advaitic embracing all gods as One and the
implied meaning is as per religious
faiths.
Dear David and friends, Would anyone like to shed further light on this beautiful poem written to Ganesha and its meaning below. I have been reading this poem on and off for years, written by Ramana Maharshi in the Virupaksha days.
"Him who begot you as a child you made
Into a beggar; as a child yourself
You then lived anywhere just to support
Your own huge belly; I too am a child.
Oh Child God in that niche! Encountering one
Born after you. Is your heart made of stone?
I pray you look at me!"
Dear heyjude,
This was written by Sri Bhagavan
in the year 1912 when Iswara Swami
wanted Him to write on the Ganesa
in the niche. Literally it means:
"O pot-bellied Ganesa, you are filling your stomach everyday, whereas you have made this another son as beggar. Are you stone hearted? Please see this son too, who came after you!"
The small poem assumes importance in the sense that Bhagavan Ramana
hints here that he is the other son, [of Siva] viz., Skanda or
Muruga in Tamizh. Normally we pray to any God saying that we are his son or daughter or a slave. Very rarely people pray: I am your younger brother.
There is a photograph in Ramana collections where Bhagavan is sitting in front of this small cute Ganesa inside a small hole on the wall in Virupakshi Cave.
Thanks Subramanian, I now understand it more fully and it makes the poem even more beautiful as Ramana says he is Skanda the son of Shiva and brother of Ganesha.
Dear Heyjude,
"Him who begot you a child" means
Siva. Siva Himself is a beggar with skull as his begging bowl. There is
one form as Bhikshatanar in the 8
forms of Siva. He went as a beggar
along with Vishnu, in the guise of
an enchanting wife [Mohini] to Daruka forests to beg.
Thanks again Subramanian for your in-depth explanation.
The beauty of the poem is in the devotion it stirs up.
Dear heyjude,
Bhagavan Ramana has in some stray
conversations and expressions have
indicated that He was the avatara of
Skanda. Once when Arunachaleswara-
Appetakuchambal were coming for street procession, and when the palnquin stopped before the Asramam, the inmates submitted coconuts, and plantains. The arti was shown by the priest and then vibhuti and kumkum
were given. The inmates brought the same to Sri Bhagavan. Sri Bhagavan took them and applied them on His forehead and then said: "The son is subservient to Father." Sri Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni called Bhagavan as avatara of Skanda in Sri Ramana Gita.
I really love these discussions of Nome in 4 parts on Ramana's 40 verses as part of Ramana's birthday celebration at SAT Temple in 2005. They were my first video exposure to Nome, which eventually led to my correspondence, and moving here. I now know most of the people here, including the woman who sings in Sanskrit at the beginning of each segment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aU8TspAcmc&playnext=1&list=PL75C0990C261DB940&index=23
I remember even watching these videos in 2008, before I even corresponded with Nome, but had visited in 2007, reminded me that something was going on there, deep. And I remember the way Nome talked, and what it engendered in me, I would feel everything becoming intensely blissful, formless Consciousness, and my vision would light up intensely. I was like, I don't know how or why, but i suspect this guy might be a jnani, like Maharshi talked about in Talks. Wrote him, his answers always had that feel of coming from the Self and the Self alone, and usually I would feel obliterated in grace. Ultimately, that led to me, a few years later (a few months ago) moving here, permanently. Now, I really have no doubts Nome is a truly realized, sage, with much power to Enlighten. Though I don't know of hardly any, I'm sure people have walked away from here, went there own way, totally realized.
Nome writes in his article TIMELESS
PRESENCE [in Centenary of Advent, 1996 Souvenir]:
Silence. Absolute Silence. Eternal
Silence. This is Sri Bhagavan's
Presence. Unfettered by time and space. His Presence transcends the illusory boundaries of life and death. Making itself known, it destroys delusion and bondage and brings liberation from all imagination, from all that is unreal. Sri Bhagavan's Presence is the Presence of Siva Himself,
the Reality of Brahman itself. ...
His Grace is unbounded. It operates in countless ways incomprehensible to the mind... By Grace alone Liberation from the imagined bondage attained. By Grace alone is there Realization of the true Self. By Grace alone
does mediation occur and the profound enquiry 'Who am I?' succeed in awakening one from the dream of an ego with its illusory world-appearance. By Grace alone devotion arises in the heart. By Grace alone is there freedom, happiness and peace.... With Grace He has revealed the Teaching, which is the direct experience of Reality....For us, with a life in His Grace and Truth, every moment is profound. Each moment He reveals Himself anew in His entirety, beyond the illusions of time conjured up by the mirage of the mind, and always what is revealed is the ever-same Self. It is neither new, nor old, neither reached nor ever lost, but ever the case, with the Self...The Grace of Guru pierces illusion's bubble-like dream in inexplicable ways. It is always blissful and liberating.
Muktananda:
http://www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/secret.htm
One evening a somewhat curious and unusual incident took place. An orthodox Pandit, who was one among the visitors, suddenly got up and asked Swamiji a direct and unexpected question in Sanskrit, "I learn that you are not a Brahmin and that according to the shastras (scriptures) you have no right to take to sannyasa. How then does it happen that you have donned ochre-coloured robes and entered into the holy order of sannyasins?" Not wishing to discuss at length with such a person, Swami Vivekananda cut short the Pandit's argument by pointedly saying, "I belong to the line of Chitragupta to whom every Brahmin prays during his sandhya worship. So, if Brahmins are entitled to sannyasa, much more so am I entitled." Swamiji then turned the tables on the questioner by telling him, "In your Sanskrit question there was an unpardonable mispronunciation. Panini denounces such mispronunciation — (one should not degrade or mispronounce words). So you have no right to carry on ihis debate." The Pandit was nonplussed and went away, especially when he understood that the audience revered Swamiji and resented the irrelevant question ....
Hello.Thank you for replies about my question about surrender.I have another question.
I find the book titied 'Origin of Spiritual Instruction' at amazon.com.I read several sample pages and think it is easy to understand.I have ' The collected works of Ramana Maharshi'. Do you think that 'Origin of Spiritual Instruction' is worth to buy?
thank you
Do you think that 'Origin of Spiritual Instruction' is worth to buy?
Certainly. This book is available for free download at http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org.
Even more valuable is Vichara Sangraham (Self Enquiry) with Ramanas instructions to his first known devotee Gambhiram S. This book is contained in The Collected Works and is also available as a free download.
Dear shiba,
There are two such essays in Collected Works. For Gambhiram
Seshayyar, Bhagavan told the
Vichara Sangraham. This covers
ashtanga yoga margam also apart from self inquiry. The other one is Upadesa Manjari as told to Swami
Natananda, and this contains only
details of self inquiry only, without touching ashtanga yogam etc.,
In Osrborne's English translations,
these are titled as Self Enquiry
and Spiritual Instruction, respectively.
I should explain my question plainer.I read 'spiritual instruction' in 'The collected works of Ramana Maharshi'. I have the book.
And it seems there is difference between 'Origin of spiritual instruction'that I found at amazon.com and 'spiritual instruction' in 'The collected works of Ramana Maharshi'.Then I asked if I need to buy 'Origin of spiritual instruction'.
Part of 'Origin of spiritual instruction' can be read at below address.
http://www.satramana.org/ExcerptOriginOfSpiritualInstruction.pdf
Dear shiba,
I googled and found out that satramana.org is a blog maintained
by the Society of Abidance in Truth,
SAT, California, for which Nome is
the administrator. It contains several excerpts of teachings of Nome and others inter alia, containing one title satramana.OriginsOfSpiritual Instructions - excerpts.
May be this is the partial version of the original Spiritual Instruction of Bhagavan Ramana.
The Collected Works contains the entire essay under the title. I am of the view that the essay in CW
is adequate.
(A description of the three spiritual stages fana, baqa and liqa by sufi mystique, Algillani)
A COMPLETE SUBJUGATION OF THE ANIMAL SELF.
At this stage (FANA), man ceases to be disturbed by an urge of desire. The only urge left in him, is prayerful surrender of his whole being.
BAQA. This means a restoration of the self to a new consciousness this time not of the flesh, but of the spirit. The urges of the self are no longer from animal passions, but from the controlled spiritual region of Allah, invariably beneficial to humanity and creation.
LIQA. This is the stage wherein man's spiritual knowledge rises to such a high pitch that the rewards for his faith, sincerity and devotion no longer remain a matter of belief, but becomes a palpable certainty and an experience, as if he had undergone them already. His faith in Allah reaches a point wherein it appears to him that he is seeing Him face to face. Such a man becomes free from all fears of the nature and from all sorrows of the present and past.
In such a state, man is free from all hesitation and obscurity of judgement and doubts and misgivings. In this state, the devotee feels tinted by the attributes of Allah in the manner of a piece of iron, eventually the colour transforming to that of fire if retained there at long enough. In moments of commotion such a man?s feelings assimilate Divine powers, so much so, that this rapture produces the pleasure and blessings of Allah or his displeasure brings in the wrath and curse of Allah. Events seemingly contrary to the laws of nature occur through his action. Having received such powers from Allah, he could even possess a power of creation. He could create events and even determine the course of history.
After a pilgrim had entered the state of Fana which in the language of the Quran is called ISTI-QAMA, the next two stages of BAQA and LIQA follow as a matter of course. The reason is that, when a person becomes completely void of attachment to creation and desires and personal will, he automatically enters the state of BAQA.
Nome's talks seem to be warmed over Ramana Maharshi teachings. Pretty dull after a while, not particularly related to present moment exploration or revealing of his direct experience.
@ Anonymous, here take this. Since you are so keen on quoting Guru Ratings (as your own comments), a sensationalist yellow journalism site that loves defamation, and wouldn't have the slightest clue about Realization or Maharshi. Here is the feedback page about Nome (url below). You would agree it would be a good idea to get both sides of a story, before making your judgement about something, that's just common sense, or basic intelligence, isn't it? Many of these positive comments pushed me over to starting my correspondence with him, of which I have immensely benefited and am eternally greatful for his superb nectarean, truly realized guidance. Especially Note: Cee's comment. (She is the author of The Way of Nonduality, and The Myth of Seeing, and her site is Present Nonexistence) Oh yeah, and feel free to write him at sat@cruzio.com, and tell him what you think of him -lol. Since what you think is so grounded in Truth, what do you have to lose? -lol.
http://www3.telus.net/public/sarlo/Fnome.htm
Cee says:
"If you want to know Truth directly, if you want to know what enlightenment is--you should go to Nome. There is no doubt that he is the most authentic Spiritual Teacher alive today in the Western World. Nome teaches pure Advaita Vedanta in the manner of Ramana Maharshi. Nome is a fully awakened sage of the highest realization. There is not even the slightest trace of ego left in his satvic human form. Radiating with bliss and humility, he seems to function in the world as a sage yet he is not of this world.
Why do so few people come to him? Perhaps it is because he offers no entertainment or consolation to the persona of the seeker. His hair does not blow in the wind and he doesn’t dole out shaktipat. He has written no popular bestsellers (preferring to translate the splendid Vedic Classics). He simply abides as the Self. His Teaching has been the same pure Truth for 30 years. He will not let you stop at partial awakening. If you would only listen and take this perfect teaching to heart, he will take you all the way until there is absolutely no doubt and nothing left over."
Experientially, I can attest these words that Cee speaks are absolute Truth!
http://satramana.wordpress.com/page/3/
This url is for the history of SAT, on the SAT Temple blog.
If you want to know Truth directly, if you want to know what enlightenment is--you should go to Nome.
Does that mean you know what enlightenment is?
*Real silence is explosive; it is not the dead state of mind that spiritual seekers think. This is volcanic in its nature; it's bubbling all the time--the energy, the life--that is its quality.
*The Natural State is a state of great sensitivity--but this is a physical sensitivity of the senses, not some kind of emotional compassion or tenderness for others. There is compassion only in the sense that there are no 'others' for me, and so there is no separation
*The knowledge creates experience, and the experience strengthens knowledge. This is a vicious circle.
*Whether you are interested in Moksha,Liberation, Freedom, Transformation, you name it, or you are interested in happiness without one moment of unhappiness, pleasure without pain, it is the same thing.
*The questioner is nothing but the answers. That is really the problem. We are not ready to accept this answer because it will put an end to the answers which we have accepted for ages as the real answers.
*Nature is interested in only two things--to survive and to reproduce one like itself. Anything you superimpose on that, all the cultural input, is responsible for the boredom of man.
*It is terror, not love, not brotherhood that will help us to live together. Until this message percolates to the level of human consciousness, I don't think there is any hope.
*Anything you experience based on knowledge is an illusion.
*There is no such thing as truth. The only thing that is actually there is your 'logically' ascertained premise, which you call truth.
*The body does not exist except as a thought. There is one thought. Everything exists in relationship to that one thought. That thought is 'me'. Anything you experience based on thought is illusion.
*The day man experienced the consciousness that made him feel separate and superior to the other forms of life, at that moment he began sowing the seeds of his own destruction.
*All I am saying is that the peace you are seeking is already inside you, in the harmonious functioning of the body.
*You love fear. The ending of fear is death, and you don't want that to happen. I am not talking of wiping out the phobias of the body. They are necessary for survival. The death of fear is the only death.
We are driving along in Sushma's car. "There's nothing that money can't buy," says U.G., reacting to the old Beatles' number "Can't Buy Me Love" which is playing on Sushma's tape recorder. "Look at their own lives. The Beatles could not love one another and ultimately had to split up. Singing songs of love to make money was their only creed...." True. Without the word 'love' the entire music industry would collapse. Can you imagine the world without love songs? All of us in the movie and music industries would be unemployed.
@David and others..
From 'Who am I':
"Even if one incessantly thinks 'I, I', it will lead to that place."
This is one of the most practical workarounds for Self-enquiry but
I try this and my mind gets tired after a while..what am I doing wrong? Has anyone managed to do this for hours together? Did it work?
Dear Titus,
The incessant repeating of I,I,I
many times, do not lead because
most of us cannot forsake the embedded strong feeling that I am the
body. The 'I' should shift from body to the Self. This takes time.
Perhaps a few would succeed quickly.
I follow the repetition of Arunachala
Siva, Arunachala Siva, and this helps me to quell the mind.
One day Bhagavan was looking at me [one of the kitchen workers] intently and said:"It looks as if you are still hankering after meditation." I replied: "What have I got except endless work in the kitchen?" Bhagavan said with deep feeling:"Your hands may do the work but your mind can remain still.You are that which never moves.Realize that and you will find that work is not a strain.But as long as you think that you are the body and that the work is done by you,you will feel your life to be an endless toil.In fact it is the mind that toils, not the body.Even if your body keeps quiet, will your mind keep quiet too? Even in sleep the mind is busy with its dreams." I replied: "Yes, Swami, it is as natural for you to know that you are not your body as it is for us to think that we are the body. ... Why can't I remember always that I am not the body?" "Because you haven't had enought of it." He smiled. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Respected Mr. Subramaninam and Mr. Ravi
Can one recite Vishnu Sahasranamam from "Om Vishvam Vishnur" to "Na Te Yanti Para-Bhavam Om Nama Iti
" or should one recite dhayanam , and dialogues(Uvacha part) too etc.
Dear Kandhan,
I recite Vishnu Sahasranamam, only
from Om Vishwam Vishnu...to
Vanamali kadhi sarngi... Poorva
bhagam and uttara bhagam, I do not
recite. So also with Sri Lalita.
From Sri Mata to Sri Siva Sivaaikya
Swarupini Sri Lalitambika....
I believe the postings by "Follow the Rabbit" (in an older Open thread), some Anonymous, Z and Peter are all by a single person and is a conditioned U.G. fan/preacher and at the same time he cannot leave this blog (addicted to this blog) after every good bye he had said directly or indirectly.
The purpose of repeating "I,I,I" is only to help us feel into this basic sense of "I". There is no other point in using it. There is no magic associated with it, no mantric power, it's just a way of learning to feel the "I" sense by simply repeating the word "I". If we lose sense of the "I"-feeling, one simple way to regain it is to just say "I" a few times with emphasis. This helps us focus in self-enquiry with feeling. If you don't use it that way, it has no real value.
"Sorrow is the glue. Art, religion, and that political zeal to improve the lives of the human lot, spring from the frustration and impossibility of making any sense out of life," says U.G. Talking to him this morning is like taking off into a clear sky on a clear day. The vast expanse of the sky is less intimidating today.
Late at night, U.G. talks about the three girls he met in Tokyo. One was a Rajneesh freak, the second, a J. Krishnamurti freak, and the third, a Bubba Free John freak. "These girls charge $600 for spending a night with the customers. When I asked them how come they got so much, they explained that before and after the act they discussed religion, divinity, and mysticism with their customers. That is why they were so expensive. combined with religion always works at the box office," said the great American Director, Cecil B. DeMille.
As the day wears on, I'm savaged by U.G. "... Do you know why you want me to keep on giving that money to your children after you're dead and gone? It means that you don't want to let go of that money even after you're dead and gone. You want to continue living through your kids after you die. You say you don't believe in reincarnation, you do not believe in afterlife, you don't want to leave any footprints behind. All that is bogus. Like everybody else, you want continuity. That's all that you are interested in. You want to continue through your work, your writings, your books, your movies, or your so-called humanitarian acts."
"That's instinct. Your so-called protective instinct is not a natural thing. Don't you see, it's wearing you out by its constant demand for permanence? Your thinking mechanism which demands permanence is a dead thing. It cannot touch anything living .... Frustration produces results. Your whole world of art is built on frustration. You know the age-old analogy of the dog and his bone. The hungry dog chews on a lean, dry bone; and doing so hurts his gums and they bleed. The poor dog imagines that the blood that he's savoring comes from the bone and not from himself.... Whatever you experience is created by you; and these experiences, however intense and great they may be, do not last."
Today is Mario's thirty-first birthday. "What is the meaning of life?" he jokingly asked, as we get into his car to go to the Palace Hotel in Montreux for lunch. "To kill and get killed, and to justify that in ten different ways is the purpose and meaning of your life," answered U.G., butting in and occupying the front seat.
"What's your message, U.G.?" I ask in exasperation.
"Drop dead!" he says, staring straight at my face.
... You say, "I love you, I miss you," but you think twice before you make a long- distance call. That's why, folks, I always talk about money. That's the thing that reveals where you are really at.
... By giving money they control you, and by not giving money they control you.... As long as you want something from someone, there will always be someone out there to control you.
Thanks for the cable, Mr.K, although not entirely correct. Who are you?? Never mind; did you get the messages?You are meant to follow the Rabbit not me.
-z
This was written by the great poet Alfred Tennyson to a Mr Blood. It shows you can even use your own name if done with the right intensity. " but a kind of waking trance- this for lack of a better word- I have frequently had, quite up from boyhood, when I have been all alone. This has come upon me through repeating my own name to myself silently, till all at once, as it were out of the intensity of the consciousness of individuality, individuality itself seemed to dissolve and fade away into boundless being, and this not a confused state but the clearest, the surest of the surest, utterly beyond words- where death was an almost laughable impossibility- the loss of personality (if so it were) seeming no extinction, but the only true life. I am ashamed of my feeble description. Have I not said the state is utterly beyond words?"
Dear hey jude,
This point about Tennyson came up
on 16th June 1946, [Day by Day]. Bhagavan Ramana was telling:....But as the 'I' arises from the Heart, it must
sink back and merge there for Self
Realization.
Later in the day, G.V. Subbaramaiah,
[devotee and an English professor],
said: "It is said that by repeating his own name a number of times, Tennyson used to get into a state in which the world completely disappeared and he realized that it was all illusion."
And a discussion ensued as to where
the quotation came from and whether we could find it.
On 17th June 1946, it is recorded:
'In continuation of yesterday's
conversation about Tennyson, the relevant passage was found in a footnote to the English translation of Upadesa Saram. It was not a poem but in a letter to Mr. B.P. Blood. Bhagavan asked me to read it out, so I did.
Bhagavan later said: That state is called abidance in the Self. It is described in a number of songs.
He took up Tayumanavar and it opened at the very page where was the poem He was looking for. He read out the poem. It is in 8th Stanza in Chinamayananda Guru and also in 2nd and 5th Stanza in Paripurananadam. The state is referred to as Sahaja Nishtai.
How to elimnintate the entries of anonymous comments, and spare us the ridiculous . . .Comment not shown) Please be helpful to the other readers of this blog and use your real name or an unambiguous name
Sometime back, I raised the same
issue. Someone pounced on me,
asking me: "Then you may ask for
our gothra [lineage], sutra [the
basic Vedic portion which your
forefathers had been chanting,
Saka, that portion of Veda which
you are now chanting. Then your
nakshatra[asterism..."
I thought it is better not to pursue this matter. What is wrong in giving one's one name. Can one not stand for what he writes, right or wrong, get corrected if necessary?
The following account appeared in a Tamil Spiritual Magazine some months back.
Yogi Ramiah (an enlightened devotee of Bhagavan Ramana) was recalling to Bhagavan his strange encounter with a road side magician.
Once Yogi Ramiah (Yogi) saw a group of people being entertained by a road side magician in a village in Andhra Pradesh. The magician was able to materialize whatever items people there asked him. Astonished by this feat, the Yogi asked the magician to materialize Pakoras (a crunchy, soft Indian savoury) for him. The magician immediately materialized hot pakoras, which the Yogi found extremely delicious.
Once the show was over, the Yogi was further astonished to find the magician begging money from the gathered people. Yogi was thinking why can't this magician materialize money for himself instead of begging.
Yogi then approached this magician and had a chat with him about the source of his power (siddhi). The magician after some hesitation told the Yogi that some years back he did tapas using the mantra of a Spirit Being in order to obtain material benefits. After some days of tapas, a Spirit Being associated with that mantra appeared and gave him this materialization siddhi, but also warned him against using it for his personal use. Hence, with no option, he had to take up this kind of profession.
Yogi asked the magician to get rid off this siddhi if he has no material benefits for himself from it. But the magician replied sadly that the Spirit Being associated with this siddhi had also warned him that he will be killed if he tries to get away forcefully from it.
After hearing all these account from Yogi Ramiah, Bhagavan seem to have remarked -- "Those who are blindly running after objects of desires are miserable; still miserable are those who are running after siddhis and they are sure to get into one problem or another".
Thanks, Sankar Ganesh.
I am Anonymous Mr. Confused here:
I have a strange feeling. Devotees please console me
Though I am attached to my Guru and Ishwara I always get so many doubts.
So I dont worship them peacefully.
I am a brahmin. Somehow off late I am getting one strange segregating attitude. Somehow due to my humility I don't get a wrong arrogance but instead it gets converted into haunting doubt thoughts.
Here it goes:
I consider the vedic mantras the direct one in the shruthis as superior to any other form of worship. Then next to that I consider Upanishads as the supreme.
Even next to that only I consider the great works like Soundarya Lahari, Muuka Pancha Sathi, Lalitha Sthava Rathnam and other stothras composed by the greatest saints .
Even next to that only I consider the bhajan songs and other normal composition of saints lived 500 years or lesser.
Lastly only I consider the "present time" imaginary compositions of devotional songs in the form of light music.
I could get that only the inner attitude is important and it always take precedence over outer expression somehow I have got into this loop.
Similary for example given 10 minutes I tend to compare Vishnu with Rama and conclude that Vishnu worship is more potent.
My doubts are not so baseless. Supposing one read Iyyapa normal songs or Annamalai songs which come nowadays as a religious practice. But for people who lived previous to these compositions -- how could they chanted them. But when I take Shiva or Vishnu or Vedas they are available from time immemorial.
So I tend to think that as creation progress all this has come but real power lies in Vedas only.
This is a granthi within me. Please direct your answers inorder to remove the granthi but not mistake me please.
Regards,
Anonymous Confused.
Dear Mr. Anon, Confused. First of all do not develop an attitude that
Devi,Vishnu, Siva and all other
anthramorphic gods as inferior. They only confer you Chitta Suddhi.
Only a Sattvic mind can do self inquiry. But at the same time, stick to worship of one god's form. The rolling stone gather no mass.
So stick to one god and offer your prayers and pujas. This god shall make your mind clear and take you to the question of Who is the person praying? That is You. Who are You? You are the Atma within. If you abide in the Atma within, without thoughts, without the I thought, self realization blossoms.
Dear Anonymous Mr. Confused,
I had also went through such crisis like you before finally coming into the embrace of Bhagavan Ramana's teachings.
Now I consider my own SELF or Para-Bramam has manifested as all Gods of all Religions as well as all Gurus as well as the entire Universe.
But at the same time to have a closer attachment to the thought of God or SELF, I worship Mother Devi/Parasakthi alone and at the same time also showing respect to other Gods as SELF if I have to visit their temples or sannidhis or see their photos.
Similarly, with respect to Guru, I am holding only to Ramana and at the same time have respect for other gurus/Jnanis/saints as manifestations of one SELF or Para-Bramam.
Holding onto one Guru and/or one Ishwara rupa develops concentration and strength of mind and keeps off unwanted thoughts or desires that disturb peace.
salutations to all:
Anonymous Confused
sorry to address you as 'confused' but since you have yourself chosen to call thus, have no other alternative :-)
while am pretty ill-equipped to remove your 'granthi', your state of doubt is perhaps most apt for engaging in 'vichAra'. why bother whether the vEdic hymns are greater or the devotional compositions of saints; why worry about this so-called 'ordering' from the greatest to the smallest when nothing as such may really be! why to break one's head on whether the world is real or unreal, or how to reconcile such conundrums to the way bhagavAn lived etc. etc... do you think 'doubts' end by satisfying them with something that sounds reasonable? in mathematics, yes; in the quest for truth, clearly NO. bhagavAn's advice was very simple - as long as thoughts/ doubts assail, so long must we strive to 'kill' all such thoughts/ doubts (lock, stock & barrel) by the practice of self-enquiry again & again & again... no thoughts are sacred enough for being entertained forever. here again, my little suggestion - please don't torment yourself on utterly useless issues such as 'am i ripe for vichAra? will i be able to succeed? etc.' - remember 'nike', i mean - 'just do it' hahahaha
For all those Gurus who claim to be enlightened yet take up with attractive partners:
Conversations with Jean Klein:
Student: Did your relationships change?
Jean Klein: There was no more relationship. As there's no longer an "I",
there is not another.
Student: Can this non-dual state be described at all?
Jean Klein: It is love where the mind is dissolved in love. The seeker IS
the sought, and is always so very, very near.
Yogi Ramaiah is one rare devotee
who never wrote his reminiscences
or write any poem. He was a silent
sadhak who remained with Bhagavan
Ramana for many years. When some
Westerner [Chadwick or Brunton?]
was about to enter his cottage and there he found a serpent, he came back running. Yogi Ramaiah went near that cottage and at the entrance, 'spoke] to the serpent to move away. The serpent moved away and the Westerner could enter the cottage wiping out his perspiration!
"Anonymous Confused
sorry to address you as 'confused' but since you have yourself chosen to call thus, have no other alternative :-)"
:)
David,
I have a question. We know that Bhagavan "liked" it if a devotee complained any "injustice" done against them, by fellow devotees...
I have a question. Was this limited to outward/external/worldly complaints only? Was it ok to complain about one's own spiritual hindrances? I guess what I am asking is - is it better to ignore the difficulties/complaints when we think we are not making progress in our sadhana or does it not make a difference if complained abt one's difficulties or not?
In the memoirs book of G V Subbaramayya, there is a line that says something like "Mother always has in mind the child that doesn't cry". Does this apply to spiritual difficulties too? Is there any instance that depicts either of the stances?
salutations to all:
Mr./Ms. can i complain?
sorry, the question was addressed to david and he might give a detailed reply. just wanted to ask, did you mean "...if a devotee did NOT complain the injustice..." ???
for the one who tries 'vichAra', no complaint is possible, for as soon as he/she complains, the only thing to do is derail the thought by asking 'who is it that's complaining', thereby turning one's attention back to the source. :-)
for the one who tries 'surrender', no complaint is permitted, for in the attempt to surrender, one has forfeited all rights to complain! here, the attitude is - after all, would the One who is all-in-all have to be made aware of this so-called injustice by this insignificant 'i'? :-)
no wonder, bhagavAn 'liked' them because they were living the teacing, weren't they? :-)))
[unlike me who sort-of understands it but is woefully pathetic in implementing it] hahahahaha
Friends,
Today ushers in the Month of Margazhi and the month of AndAl's Tiruppavai.In thirty verses of Supreme and endearing devotion to the lord,Saint AndAl has left us a Legacy that is unsurpassed in poetic beauty and philosophical depth,all in a life that spanned twenty Plus(may be 24)Years.
The theme of 'Satsangh' in Tiruppavai is a very interesting and instructive one-A couple of years back,I chanced to come across an article by a Great devotee(Sri sudarshan)that beautifully brought out this theme.I hope to discover the link to this article and share it here.
Here is the link to part2 of his article,that gives a flavour:
http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/srirangasri/archives/dec03/msg00058.html
Namaskar.
Friends,
"Can I complain"?
I will point this thread in another Blog where this matter has been discussed:
http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/dec96/0003.html
somewhere down the line,there is a very instructive post by Sri sudarshan linking it up with AndAl's Tiruppavai.
To complain or not to complain is not an issue-as long as it helps to link us to the Divine,anything is helpful.
Do we not ask for help in times of difficulty from our relatives or friends,or even strangers?So all these have a place in sadhana and can be turned to one's advantage.
Better to forget all preconceived notions of Surrender and become a child;like Sri Ramakrishna so beautifully exemplified.
Namaskar.
Friends,
"can I complain?"
Here is the link to Sri Sudarshan's musings:
http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/srirangasri/archives/dec03/msg00058.html
It helps to have a knowledge of Tamil to taste the true flavour(although the Translation is there).
Like RK Laxman's cartoons featuring the 'common man' as the 'hero'-there are these great devotees,the 'common man'devotees-who simply live it.It is always a pleasure to encounter them,be it in a temple,in a shop,on the Road,or (rarely)in a gathering!
Namaskar.
Hi Devotees
I am Krishna here.
Some days before I posted a request on cow slaughter prevention through prayer.
But no one has replied.
Please dont be indifferent towards the same. Atleast daily please make your earnest prayer deep from your heart towards Para Shakthi to stop cow slaughter in and around Thiruvannamalai in particular and in the whole universe in general.
Please dont mistake me that I am blaming you people.
The reason I am really after you all are that you people have a strength of the mind similar to that of a gym body. You all have developed some sort of intense concentration power, some sort of trust and power. That is why I want all of you to pray, collective prayer and all its waves with full intensity will definitely save the cow family. When we earnestly appeal, Ishwara and Ishwari will change the ways earlier designed for the sake of we children.
I touch all your feet, I will follow up with questions like "did you remember cow slaughter prevention during your meditation", "did you consider it in your bhajan" and all sort of questions every month, for my ego mind though very selfish and arrogant want to do something from its capacity.
Regards,
Krishna
Krishna here again:
Question to Losing M Mind.
Can you kindly elaborate on who you referred or rather what comment you referred when you replied regarding some Guru's rating and all? Sorry I could not get the context in which you spoke about defamation and all.
Regards,
Krishna
I am Mr. Confused again:
Not as reply to my question, but somewhere Ravi replied that there is no confusion on different forms and he chants Vishnu Sahasranama etc.
Even though all hold good, and I am also slowly understanding them, what I feel is that there should be unwavering devotion and surrender to one Guru and one Ishwara form or any Avatara form though occasionally the mind can get attracted to other deities and Guru. The reason being that it needs some amount of dedicated devotion before you start communication your aspirations to that form which is nothing but the Divine.
Also any arguments what if one is devoted to say some demi god or still lower Bhuuta gods like Madurai Veeran?
What Kanchi Paramacharya says is that even if one is devoted to some half good-- half passionate gods, if one's aspiration, love, devotion and surrender are pure enough and are for a higher purpose, the Paramatma, the sarva vyaabhi within those gods will elevate those devotees even though the god himself may not like the devotee to transcend.
The famous Advaitin Appaya Dikshitar who lived 500 years ago has concluded through various spiritual quotes and arguments that the Three Deities -- Ambaal, Shivan and Vishnu are Ratna Thrayam meaning Gems -- that they are full manifestation of the same Divine and that anyone who worships them is never abandoned in this world or the other.
Kanchi Paramacharya further extends the theory of Appaya Dikshitar to state that all Avatara Purushas like Rama, Krishna and all reflections of Devi like Kaali, Durga, reflections of Shiva like Vinayaka, Muruga are also to be considered as full manifestation of the Divine.
Here an important point comes: what about the Alwars and Nayanmars who uplifed one of Shiva or Vishnu and spoke somewhat low of the other?
I thought over this point for a lenght of time but afterwards finally came to the below conclusion
Those Alwars and Nayanmars were really really mad after their personal God that some of them alighted Kailash or Thirupathi crawling over the hills or walking upside down. They never ate, they never bathed or did anything without their continuous flow of devotion. They never cared about their body, life here or hereafter or about what the world comments on their attitude. They were nothing but bhakthi, bhakthi and bhakthi.
So in that high state they have every right to even speak ill of any other form of Divine.
But like some psuedo vaishnavas do, if we also try to immitate them and try to rank the Divine forms, we will incur great sins, because that surrender, that love and that bhakthi is absent in us.
I was in the vaishnava school of thoughts for 6 full years associated with Hare Krishna movement. My instructive Guru that time was not having any hatred towards Shiva but he did tell that he is a great Personality of Godhead but not equal to Krishna.
I dont want to now look back and criticize him because I learnt a lot of devotion from him esp. the love towards Holy names of God. As Annamalai Swami was angry with a new devotee who degraded his RajaYoga teacher, I dont want to incur any sort of sins by doing so.
Regards,
Krishna
Hi Maneesha
Please dont use somebody's spiritual problems and put smileys after that. I dont know in what intention you put, but for someone like you who has more focus on self enquiry this cannot be expected.
Regards,
Mr. Confused.
salutations to all:
Mr. Confused
it was me (S.) who put a 'smiley' (because i had to address you as "confused") and wrote a brief reply to your comment. i guess maneesha was merely amused at the way i addressed you, and wasn't really trying to laugh or make fun of anyone's problems. please don't take it 'personally'. the biggest problem all of us have here is primarily trying to grapple with our own 'individuality' :-) relax - only bhagavAn isn't confused here, the rest of us all are!! :-)
Krishna (/ Mr. Confused),
According to Sage of Kanchi, even if the Guru is not a Jnani and not a qualified person but if the disciple/devotee is sincere in his pursuit he will definitely succeed.
The story of Ekalaivan in Mahabharata who attained perfection in archery by worshiping Dronacharya Statue and practicing sincerely on his own is an example in this regard.
Regarding cow slaughter please pray to Arunachala, your intense thoughts and prayer to Him will bring about a change.
Ravi,
Welcome back after a break. We are all unified by that great master Ramana.
Dear Krishna,
Personal gods can be many. But Brahman is one without a second.
Personal god and liking that as
Ishta Devata makes one's devotion
to mature. Only thing is he should
not criticise other gods and this
is possible if one is an Advaiti,
who ultimately evolves himself to
inquire into nondual Brahman. Whereas Saivties and Vaishnavites
are not able to do it. I sometimes watch the discourse of one Velakudi Kannan Iyengar. He will quote only Rama's and Krishna's exploits but not about
Sri Sankara's Brahma Sutra bhashyam or Vivekachoodamani. This, particularly, when speaks to TV audience which is of a conglomerate of all faiths, it is deplorable. Such things are to be abhorred if one really wants to improve and find his way to attain salvation. Saktam has got a different outlook. There Mother
Sakti is primordial and all gods are subservient to Her. See Abhirami Andati. But they do not criticize Vishnu. In fact some
Vaishanvites have been practising Sakta approach in Chennai and I have atleast seen one of them. Sri Bhagavan has said: Siva is Mukunda Priya and Vishnu is the greatest Siva Jnani.
I remember an incident, there is a Krishna Temple near our place, a Harikatha exponent once did a performance in that Temple. He started praising Rama and Krishna and passed lowly remarks on other Gods of Hinduism. But the majority of the people who were silently listening there were the ones who believed in all forms of God in Hinduism.
The Vaishnavite Archakas of that Temple criticized the Harikatha exponent among themselves saying that the majority of the people who are coming to and supporting Vaishnavite temples are non-Vaishnavites and why this Harikatha exponent is unnecessarily passing lowly comments on other forms of God in Hinduism.
I sincerely believe, only Advaitic view will enable to see things equally in the middle of all the diversities.
TC/Name/Friends,
I appreciate the warmth and concern friends show here on this wonderful Blog.
Friends,I had some important personal commitments that had kept me away.
As for 'others' 'pouncing' on me!-No one here knows me,including the few who might have seen me!So no one can offend me.There will always be difference in approaches and expression and this is all well.Why should others agree with one?!!!If we appreciate what the Great ones have to say,this is what satsangha is all about.
-----------------------------------
Krishna,
I will respond to your dilemma a little later.
Namaskar.
Dear David,
I received the Asramam Diary for 2011. I am happy to see your Padamalai translations given along
with Tamizh original atop a number of pages. But GVK translations do
not seem to be yours. Is it Michael's
salutations to all:
subramanian/TC:
appreciate your views on 'tolerance' but i don't understand what's this 'advaitic/advaiti' view. to be tolerant of others is simply to be humane for the simple reason that one could always be prone to error (and even practically desirable for a healthy co-existence) - but this has got nothing to do with being an 'advaitin'. infact, if advaita is not a path, but a state (for me bhagavAn's state), there is no question of 'practising' advaita. to treat all with respect, or consider all gods to be one, or even wonder at the mahAvAkyAs or ekamEva advitIyam etc. are all wonderful aspects of attitude but can't be equated to being an advaitin. one has to be a bhagavAn to be an advaitin. as far as we, who are struck in the 'i am the body' idea, are concerned, including those who may 'talk' wisely, all of us are & can only be hopeless dvaitins or dualists :-)
S,
When I said about "Advaitic View", it is similar to what Bhagavan had told Madavasami.
Madavasami, Bhagavan's attendant, was always angry and passing judgements against women who visited Bhagavan. He disliked women. Bhagavan told Madavasami not be like that and he must consider all women as manifestations of SELF.
It is like a practice of remembering that SELF is All, when one wants to bring his running emotions under control.
salutations to all:
TC/subramanian/ravi (& others) - please don't take it as an argument; please don't take it personally :-)
firstly, as you yourself said, what you referred to is just a healthy attitude but has little to do with anything advaitic. secondly, when a direct instruction comes from bhagavAn, that is also imbued with the power of enabling the aspirant to implement it (even then it doesn't happen fully), isn't it? with us this is clearly not the case. bhagavAn said many things to many people at many times, but almost always, they were specific suggestions/advices to specific people, and thus can't be generalised or imitated unreservedly. many may disagree but for me the only thing bhagavAn prescribed to all is vichAra (not even surrender). one of the most refined manifestations of 'the culprit' is to bask in the holy deception of self-surrender (hahahaha)...
surrender itself is best done through vichAra, and it's for those who for some reason or the other just couldn't see the simplicity & rationality of 'self-enquiry' that bhagavAn, as a concession, emphasised surrender [i can already see many here raising their eyebrows getting ready to shoot me! :-) - "hey S., who the heck are you to say what bhagavAn's teaching was?"] my apologies but i hold my stand :-) further, to see the so-called 'self' in all, one has to know what such a 'self' is! when i have not the vaguest understanding of self-abidance, any attempt to see all as the self or the self in all is at best not knowing what one is saying and at worst simply fooling oneself. :-)
S,
It is true that real 'Self is All' experience can happen only for a Jnani.
Accepting the words of Advaitic Jnanis such as 'Self is All' is just like present day scientists with faith accepting the established scientific truth of 'All is manifestation of Energy' and proceeding to make new discoveries/inventions. They just understand that 'Energy' is a unifying factor.
A Sadhaka trusts and believes a Jnani's words with faith and makes efforts to realize the Truth. A sadhaka in the beginning does not know what that Self is, but through faith in Jnani's words he understands that it is a Universally unifying Truth and then makes efforts to realize it.
s,
The Nature of self enquiry is not different than pure Devotion.Examining the Trappings of the 'I' by way of fixing the attention on the 'ego sense' is like any other concentration exercise and may not be appealing to some(perhaps many!).It may yield some menal Quiet and this falls short of entering the 'zenana' as Sri Ramakrishna says.
Love alone can dissolve the knots of the Ego and this is the case with Sri Bhagavan as well-although an inordinate importance is attached to his 'Death' experience by his biographers.
Even a stone may be without the sense of 'I' or ego sense but that is of very little consequence.As Sri Bhagavan says in his Akshara Mana MAlai-
Mau/niyây/kar/pôl
Mala/râ/dirun/dâl
Mau/namil/dâ/mô
Arunâ/chalâ.
Is it true silence to rest like a stone,without blossoming, Oh Arunachala?
-----------------------------------
Just like you wish to be in Bhagavan's State(?),others may have their aspirations to be a child of the Divine Mother or a Beloved of Sri Krishna or a devotee of Siva-and this is as valid as the former,although it may seem like 'imagination' or 'imitation' to the gross mind.The 'sweetness' in all sweets is on account of the 'Sugar',and who may limit this by saying, that it is only when one tastes pure sugar that one can taste True sweetness!May be it is the other way round!
As the Upanishads says-Poornamidam poornamadam,Poornath poornamudhachyate.
-----------------------------------
The Key thing is to dig deep into ourselves and find the wetness of Love spring.scratching on the surface and to say that it is all 'Dry' and 'made up'is to wander in the wilderness-and the weary mind would naturally want to 'end' it all.Hence the Formula-Get rid of 'I' to get rid of all problems!Does it happen?May be not,for nature cannot be set aside,however one may wish,Be it self enquiry or Self Surrender.
Life needs to be lived,the Fruit has to ripen sticking to the Tree.
Devotion it is to happily stick to the Tree and be equally happy to get detached in time from the tree.Enjoy every moment,why wait for a particular 'thing' to happen.
Namaskar.
New Post Please! New Post Please! New Post Please!
Ravi you said....Love alone can dissolve the knots of the Ego and this is the case with Sri Bhagavan as well-although an inordinate importance is attached to his 'Death' experience by his biographers.
The trouble is there can be no real love if you believe you are a separate/selfish individual. This sort of love has its obvious limitations.
Vichara is recommended by Ramana not to foster love but to root out the ego (The ignorance)
For you to write that too much importance is attached to the Maharshis 'death' experience; gives me pause for thought. Ramanas break through is momentous!
Leaving behind the fear of death, individuality and sorrow. The complete opening to divine universality.
I find all great spiritual teachers appealing but Ramana Maharshi is quite unique.
hj,
"The trouble is there can be no real love if you believe you are a separate/selfish individual."
These are just thoughts,mere ideas-ideas of love is not the same as Love.If we taste 'sweetness',we already have tasted 'Sugar'(Self or God).Focus on the 'Sweetness'(the actual)and not on the 'real Love'(imaginary and extrapolated!).
It is the mind that creates all these classifications and hankers to find a 'true' solution.The mind is caught up in 'Duality' and wants freedom from both.The Devotee simply focusses(not the Right word perhaps)on the ever present 'sweetness' and enjoys this duality.
"Leaving behind the fear of death, individuality and sorrow."
Even a little practice of Devotion helps to overcome Fear of Death and Sorrow as Sri Sankara says in Bhaja Govindam-Verse 20:
To one who has studied the Bhagavad Gita even a little,
who has sipped at least a drop of Ganges-water,
who has worshipped at least once Lord Muraari,
to him there is no quarrel with Yama, the Lord of Death.
-----------------------------------
"I find all great spiritual teachers appealing but Ramana Maharshi is quite unique"-This can be explored from various perspectives.From the 'Perspective' of Ishta,one is strongly attracted to something(outer) that echoes one's deepest inner Truth.The 'uniqueness' that one perceives outside in any persona or deity is just a recognition of its presence in oneself,hidden and beyond the normal reach of the external mind.As long as this 'inner Guru' is not recognized,one attaches an extraordinary importance to the 'external'Symbol and differentiates it from others.Once the True source of the 'uniqueness' is identified,it will be found that each and every Sage,Saint or Deity is unique as all are manifestations of the Same Being.One then enjoys the infinite relationships with the divine akin to polygamy!Hence the Sahasra Nama.
So 'Ishta' devata is not something like a forced 'monogamy' but a simple recognition that through it the true nature of 'Relationship' is discovered more easily and which would lead to the Divine Polygamy that includes all and excludes none.
-----------------------------------
There is another perspective when one says 'X' is unique.This is the mental perspective that mistakes 'admiration' for Love.This leads to comparison and at its worst,it would demean all the others to the exclusion of the one thing admired(I see that what you refer to is not from this perspective).At its best ,it is still based on one's idea of the 'Ideal',some unique Differentiating Factor that sets aside the 'ideal' from all the Rest;that says 'all are Equal but this one is MORE Equal'.
Like how Jesus ,The Christ is differentiated by the Christians by emphasising that he was born 'immaculate'to a virgin and that he died on the 'cross'-making one wonder if he had born or died in any other fashion,Christianity would not have come into existence!
This sort of 'differentiation' is what leads to 'Sects' -what JK used to call as Herd instinct.This leads to disputations of Greatness and divides,and hence is best put aside by the sadhaka.
Namaskar.
It's interesting that you use Jiddu Krishnamurti as an example.
Jiddu who pooh-poohed the herd mentality and the following of gurus; yet sat on a raised platform for decades acting very much like a guru himself. Of course Krishnamurti was articulate and interesting to listen to but lived a pampered and indulged
life, totally divorced from the ordinary man in the street.
His old friend David Bohm the phycisist was far more humble and willing to listen and not just talk the talk.
Hey jude,
"totally divorced from the ordinary man in the street."
I have to disagree wih you.I never got to see JK in person,but I have heard from trusted sources what an extraordinary person JK was-wonderfully sensitive and compassionate Human being.Master TGN has given several fine talks on JK.I also have found JK's 'Commentaries on Living'-a Great classic that reveals his great sensitivity,compassion and wisdom.
Truly a Great soul.
Namaskar.
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from JK's 'Commentaries on Living'(Vol1):
24 ’SILENCE’
IT WAS A powerful motor and well tuned; it took the hills easily, without a stutter, and the pick-up
was excellent. The road climbed steeply out of the valley and ran between orchards of orange and
tall, wide-spreading walnut trees. On both sides of the road the orchards stretched for fully forty
miles, up to the very foot of the mountains. Becoming straight, the road passed through one or two
small towns, and then continued into the open country, which was bright green with alfalfa. Again
winding through many hills, the road finally came out on to the desert.
It was a smooth road, the hum of the motor was steady, and the traffic was very light. There was
an intense awareness of the country, of the occasional passing car, of the road signals, of the clear
blue sky, of the body sitting in the car; but the mind was very still. It was not the quietness of
exhaustion, or of relaxation, but a stillness that was very alert. There was no point from which the
mind was still; there was no observer of this tranquillity; the experiencer was wholly absent. Though
there was desultory conversation, there was no ripple in this silence. One heard the roar of the
wind as the car sped along, yet this stillness was inseparable from the noise of the wind, from the
sounds of the car, and from the spoken word. The mind had no recollection of previous stillnesses,
of those silences it had known; it did not say, ”This is tranquillity.” There was no verbalization, which
is only the recognition and the affirmation of a somewhat similar experience. Because there was
no verbalization, thought was absent. There was no recording, and therefore thought was not able
to pick up the silence or to think about it; for the word ”stillness” is not stillness. When the word
is not, the mind cannot operate, and so the experiencer cannot store up as a means of further
pleasure. There was no gathering process at work, nor was there approximation or assimilation.
The movement of the mind was totally absent.
The car stopped at the houses The barking of the dog, the unpacking of the car and the general
disturbance in no way affected this extraordinary silence. There was no disturbance, and the stillness
went on.
Continued......
Friends,
JK on Silence ctd....
The wind was among the pines, the shadows were long, and a wildcat sneaked away
among the bushes. In this silence there was movement, and the movement was not a distraction.
There was no fixed attention from which to be distracted. There is distraction when the main interest
shifts; but in this silence there was absence of interest, and so there was no wandering away.
Movement was not away from the silence but was of it. It was the stillness, not of death, of decay,
but of life in which there was a total absence of conflict. With most of us, the struggle of pain and
pleasure, the urge of activity, gives us the sense of life; and if that urge were taken away, we should
be lost and soon disintegrate. But this stillness and its movement was creation ever renewing itself.
It was a movement that had no beginning and so had no ending; nor was it a continuity. Movement
implies time; but here there was no time. Time is the more and the less, the near and the far,
yesterday and tomorrow; but in this stillness all comparison ceased. It was not a silence that came
to an end to begin again; there was no repetition. The many tricks of the cunning mind were wholly
absent.
If this silence were an illusion the mind would have some relationship to it, it would either reject
it or cling to it, reason it away or with subtle satisfaction identify itself with it; but since it has no
relationship to this silence, the mind cannot accept or deny it. The mind can operate only with its
own projections, with the things which are of itself; but it has no relationship with the things that are
not of its own origin. This silence is not of the mind, and so the mind cannot cultivate or become
identified with it. The content of this silence is not to be measured by words.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Yes. Advaita is an experience and not
a religious thought. But even earnest seekers of advaitic experience start with worship of a form. This is no doubt religion.
Here is where, it hurts, when someone apart from praising and glorifying his own personal god, tries to make fun of other gods. To be keep quiet without indignation, is not tolerance
and it is only meek behaviour. The same V.K. Iyerngar once said to TV audience: If you take a fistful of turmeric powder mixed with water and place it as a lump
on a plate, will it become God?
He meant the Vinayaka worship which every Smartha [Iyer] does before any puja. Even for Krishna worship on Krishna Janmashtami, it is done. Only such remarks hurt non Vaishnavites. Incidentally,
Vaishnavites have also got Vinayaka worship. They call him
as Vishwaksena, the leader of Vishnu's army. Only this in spite of elephant head, he is wearing
Trisurnam! I have seen this idol in Sri Rangam Temple.
Slowly, Slowly, O mind, everything will
happen at its own pace and at the right time.
A gardener may water his plants a hundred times,
but fruit will arrive only in its season.
--- Saint Kabir ---
Ravi, glad to see your contributions after a small gap.
Thanks, Sankar Ganesh.
Lord Vinayaka or Ganesha is affectionately called as "Thumbikai Alwar" by Vaishnavities.
Thanks, Sankar Ganesh.
Mr. Confused,
As S., communicated already, I was not making fun of you. In fact, I was amused at S.'s statement. He said that did not want to use it but had to use it 'coz u chose to call urself that way. It actually reminded me of the "state" we are all in... We imagine ourselves to be the body/mind, bound etc. and hence all the sastras/Gods/Gurus "show" us the path of Mukti. If we were not to think/imagine ourselves otherwise, all that would be peace. So, problem really lies with how we see ourselves. S. actually told what all Gurus have been telling. knowingly or unknowigly he said it their way :) So, I was amused at S.'s remark and it triggered these kind of thoughts. The response to my amusement and the associated thoughts came out as whatever I put out there. No offence was meant to you. Apologies if it did.
S.,
NOM to you either, if u are offended after reading my above. :)
Dear Ravi,
A guru's teaching should be studied
in close proximity with his teachings. Sri Bhagavan's life and His teachings can never be separated. He lived what He taught. Sadly in JK's life, despite cart-load of teachings and writings, his life in the dusk of his life betrayed him. At the dusk of his life, he had illicit relationship with Ms. Rosalind, wife of his own ardent
disciple Rajagopal. This unfortunately resulted in that lady becoming pregnant and JK went to extent of secretly taking her to a doctor for abortion. This
threw cold water on the face of most of his devotees. I know one Swamiji in one of the 8 Krishna maths of Madwa sect in Karnataka. He could not maintain his celibacy and he fell in love with a lady [fortunately not another man's wife but an unmarried lady]. He married her and quietly left his Pontiffship from the Math and is spending time in singing god's songs, maintaining a married life. A Guru can even marry and not necessarily he must be a sannyasi. But to find short cut methods to quench his lust is a criminal act that too with another man's wife is even worse than the worst criminality. I threw away my collection of JK's books after this news came. Mere prattle without practice was all his scholarship.
R.Subramanian,
"Here is where, it hurts, when someone apart from praising and glorifying his own personal god"
In this case 'his own personal god' like Sri Rama and Sri Krishna are our own as well.So is Jesus or Allah.If we have conviction in Advaita(No two)why should it hurt?
To lighten up,here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,with the Master's typical humourous observation:
MASTER (to Balaram's father and the others): "The Bhaktamala is one of the Vaishnava
books. It is a fine book. It describes the lives of the various Vaishnava devotees. But it is
one-sided. At one place the author found peace of mind only after compelling Bhagavati,
the Divine Mother, to take Her initiation according to the Vaishnava discipline.
"Once I spoke highly of Vaishnavcharan to Mathur and persuaded him to invite
Vaishnavcharan to his house. Mathur welcomed him with great courtesy. He fed his guest
from silver plates. Then do you know what happened? Vaishnavcharan said in front of Mathur,
'You will achieve nothing whatsoever in spiritual life unless you accept Krishna as your
Ideal.' Mathur was a follower of the Sakta cult and a worshipper of the Divine Mother. At
once his face became crimson. I nudged Vaishnavcharan.
"I understand that the Bhagavata also contains some statements like that. I hear that it is
said there that trying to cross the ocean of the world without accepting Krishna as the Ideal
Deity is like trying to cross a great sea by holding the tail of a dog. Each sect magnifies its
own view.
"The Saktas, too, try to belittle the Vaishnavas. The Vaishnavas say that Krishna alone is
the Helmsman to take one across the ocean of the world. The Saktas retort: 'Oh, yes! We
agree to that. Our Divine Mother is the Empress of the Universe. Why should She bother
about a ferry-boat? Therefore She has engaged that fellow Krishna for the purpose.' (All
laugh.)
"Besides, how vain people are about their own sects! There are weavers in the villages near
Kamarpukur. Many of them are Vaishnavas and like to talk big. They say: 'Which Vishnu
does he worship? The Preserver? Oh, we wouldn't touch him!' Or: 'Which Siva are you
talking about? We accept the Atmaramasiva.' Or again, 'Please explain to us which Hari
you worship'. They spin their yarn and indulge in talk like that."
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
" At the dusk of his life, he had illicit relationship with Ms. Rosalind, wife of his own ardent
disciple Rajagopal. This unfortunately resulted in that lady becoming pregnant and JK went to extent of secretly taking her to a doctor for abortion. This
threw cold water on the face of most of his devotees. "
I heard something like this based on a book that Ms Rosalind's daughter wrote after JK's passing away.Wonder why she did not have the courage to write such stuff when JK was alive.I do not give much credence to such stories.
Namaskar.
Maneesha,
you say:
'problem really lies with how we see ourselves.'
Why dont you see yourself as a Jnani from tomorrow and you wont have any problems.
-z
Shankar Ganesh/Friends,
"A gardener may water his plants a hundred times,
but fruit will arrive only in its season."
Wonderful saying of Kabir.This is exactly what Sri Aurobindo says in that insightful chapter 'Four Aids' in his 'Synthesis of Yoga':
"Time is the remaining aid needed for the effectivity of the process. Time presents itself to human effort as an enemy or a friend, as a resistance, a medium or an instrument. But always it is really the instrument of the soul.
Time is a field of circumstances and forces meeting and working out a resultant progression whose course it measures. To the ego it is a tyrant or a resistance, to the Divine an instrument. Therefore, while our effort is personal. Time appears as a resistance, for it presents to us all the obstruction of the forces that conflict with our own. When the divine working and the personal are combined in our consciousness, it appears as a medium and condition. When the two become one, it appears as a servant and instrument.
The ideal attitude of the Sadhaka towards Time is to have an endless patience as if he had all eternity for his fulfillment and yet to develop the energy that shall realise now and with an ever-increasing mastery and pressure of rapidity till it reaches the miraculous instantaneousness of the supreme divine Transformation."
I warmly recommend reading this chapter that wonderfully brings out all the essentials of Sadhana:
" Yoga-siddhi, the perfection that comes from the practice of Yoga, can be best attained by the combined working of four great instruments. There is, first, the knowledge of the truths, principles, powers and processes that govern the realisation -- sastra. Next comes a patient and persistent action on the lines laid down by the knowledge, the force of our personal effort -- utsaha. There intervenes, third, uplifting our knowledge and effort into the domain of spiritual experience, the direct suggestion, example and influence of the Teacher -- guru. Last comes the instrumentality of Time -- kala; for in all things there is a cycle of their action and a period of the divine movement."
Namaskar.
Krishna,
Your impassioned plea for protection of cows is indeed praise worthy.Here is an excerpt from what The Sage of Kanchi has said as part of Guru poornima message:
"Sri Krishna is called the lord of cows. Sri Krishna being the central figure in Vyasa Pooja, 1 desire to give you the message of gosamrakshanam (cow protection). It is an irony that in the land where the cow is worshipped, cows are found in an emaciated condition. In lands where cow-slaughter is not regarded as a sin, the cattle yield more milk per head, and are better looked after. In India, the peasant is perpetually indebted and his cattle are mere skin and bones. In the past, this neglect was trotted out as an excuse for not bringing in legislation to prevent cow slaughter. The Government, as well as the public, owe a duty to attend to the cattle the wealth of a country. In the ancient days the village had a common pasture called meichal tarai. These pasture lands have got assigned to private individuals. The Government should take steps to acquire these pasture lands for the benefit of the cattle. They should also include the maintenance of common village tanks, known as mantaikarai kulam under their minor irrigation works. So far as the public is concerned, each house should keep a vessel or a bucket for collecting the water with which rice is washed for cooking, as well as kanji and kitchen garbage, like discarded portions of vegetables, skins of fruits, plantain leaves, etc. Arrangements should be made to feed cows with this collection. If every house-holder takes care of one cow in this manner, the cattle wealth of the country will improve in no time."
I have been amazed at how this Great Jnani has time and again come out with simple 'action plans' that the lowly and humblest of men could practise(from the 'collective perspective')-which could make a sea change(if practised!).Likewise his simple pidi arisi (Fistful of Rice)-where every household has to set aside a fistful of Rice everyday as a way to collect food for the needy and to alleviate Hunger -is truly a Great 'Practical' advice-The Reason why I consider that the Sage of Kanchi is the Greatest Exemplar of the Collective aspect of sanatana Dharma.
To read and contemplate his Life and Teachings is to be steeped in this wisdom.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Bob Dylan's lyrics of the classic Mr Tambourine man is not a spiritual song as such but is indicitive of the human condition. The trees are neither haunted nor frightened; the fear comes from within us. "Then take me disappearin' through the smoke rings of my mind,
Down the foggy ruins of time, far past the frozen leaves,
The haunted, frightened trees, out to the windy beach,
Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow.
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free,
Silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands,
With all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves,
Let me forget about today until tomorrow"
A careful advise to advaita followers:
I am Krishna here again.
Off late I saw some one used the term advaitic way , advaitis etc. and someone else commented to the effect that those intellectual terms are not required.
Because I was in the Vaishanva school of thoughs for past 5 years before coming to Bhagavan Ramana I want to add my humble views on this Advaita in modern age. Please dont mistake or take me wrongly, I dont intend to advise any one of you but wanted to tell something on this.
The Sage of Kanchi feels that the term Advaita is not exactly an apt term to describe that Brahaman alone is there. Advaita is not maya vada.
The reason Vaishanvas get angry is that advaitic followers tend to equate themselves with God and that they regard world as an illusion.
Especially they get more disturbed when some advaitin says that Krishna, Rama are mere objects of worship for better intense concentration and devotion is nothing but a means. They get really disturbed when someone says that vaikunta is nothing but the creation of the mind.
hey jude,
Here is an excerpt from 'The Music of man' an expansion of a book,of an eight part television series which originated with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that featured the Great violinist/Humanist sir Yehudi Menuhin and Curtis W.Davis:
Bob Dylan's songs burst upon the sixties,and critic Ralph Gleason called him"one of the great warning voices of our time".Along with singer joan Baez,he represents the committed artist seeking to transform his society.
In the sixties,a time of profound dissent over National and Social goals as the agony in Vietnam grew more intense,Americans responded to another Hymn,"Blowing in the Wind," written and sung by Bob Dylan,a performer whose career started in the cafes of Greenwich Village:
How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
How many seas must the white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
...The answer is blowing in the wind
The form of the song is simple and strophic,like so many by Schubert,and the melody barely spans an octave.But Dylan's images are specific,universal,and deeply emotional.A cry of conscience,this song became a national anthem for an entire generation.
The artist in our day cannot altogether escape his role in history or in his society.I have often thought of Dmitri Shostakovich,a timid and anxious person,struggling all his life with the state system(USSR-Ravi)without ever quite breaking through.I was surprised when I met Shostakovich for the First time at the Prague Spring Festival around 1947.His music breathed the passion and fire of War and heroic sacrifice,but he himself appeared pale and anxious.It is sad that a man who had such genius and so much to say was not able to reach the apogee of his capacity because of political disapproval....He was a fine composer who might have achieved even greater heights elsewhere or at another time.Shostakovich proves that music is infinitely flexible and can adapt to any purpose,but human beings cannot.Here was a Great spirit surviving through sheer brilliance"
I warmly recommend this Book that has great insights by Yehudi Menuhin(I always enjoy listening to his recording of the Beethoven Violin Concerto with Furtwangler conducting-No one bettered this performance)
Namaskar.
(continued)
That is why even sage of kanchi condemened the brand new fashinoable vendanta of 20th century. I also feel that there is some meaning in this. Because a illumined and higher mind of a higher nature (Mostly the primal I thought) can say that Vaikunda is illusion or creation of mind. But the minds of we people need to accept those lokas until we have the feelings of pleasure and pain.
So what I feel is that the term advaita need not be used to tag ourself to Bhagavan Ramana. Similarly the terms personal God, chosen form etc. etc. Because there is nothing personal or impersonal about our philosophy. There is nothing we can really describe in words. The best mode is silenece. When the silent breaks, the attitude of prayer and devotion must come out like floods of ocean from one's mouth. That alone is a true expression of Divine. All other intellectual arguments are nothign but waste of time. Adhi Shankara in Bhaja Govindham says that the grammar and other philosophical arguments will not take one to the goal.
I feel that there is inherent maturity, knowledge and power every soul possesses. That power we need to strenghthen. Supposing let us assume two devotees of Bhagavan get caught up in tribe of cannibals and their killing time is nearing.
A soul with right knowledge will apply it at that circumstance, will apply it to the pain it is feeling and to the extent of knowledge and power, it will get the equivalent proportion of relief in the suffering of death.
This applies to our day to day life problems and everythign else.
So the best course one should follow is to increase that inner attitude's power and devotion while doing an outer expression of the same like pooja, prayer etc.
I use to put myself to such tests in relatively tricky situations. For once I was travelling in bike n the rear seat while my colleague was riding the break. I am not used to bike riding and all. There were many bumpy roads and speed breakers but he was riding very fast. With every lorr behind me honking fear gripped me. Immediatel I tried to know my inner power and strength, I found that my ego-mind immediately goes to the Abhirama Pattar's slogas and surrenders partially to Devi. To the proportion of the surrender something within me re-assured and reduced the fear. I compared my same state 8 months before I came to Maharishee and became happy that I have improved a little bit. So I am increasingly getting the urge to still more surrender, stll more transcend and still more devote.
On the other hand I dont derive much benefit by studying dhrishti shrishti or shristhi drishti vaadhaa. But for others reading all thoughts and contemplating them, please stop to see how much your inner attitude and power is enhanced by it. If it is enhanced it is good, but if it makes no difference then there is something we need to do differently.
My old vaishnava teacher will say that advaitins cannot be truly devotional because deep within their heart they are after liberation only.
I think this is true for any one dvaiti or advaiti -- whoever aspries for something. The best course one should do his apply his best power, knowledge and devotion towards every circumstance the para shakthi gives. That is trying to be peacerful, trying to be re-assured to stand against the tide. Whether it be hell or heaven surrounded by beautiful girls, one should not carried away. Atleast we should try go be stubborn and give a tough fight. Then the rest of the work will be done by Divine Para Shakthi herself as I read in Sharada Devi's book that "do as much as you can and rest I will do"
So from next time we will stop at every step, look back and see if we transcend the situation and also transcend the feeling that "I gave a better show"
Lucy the famous German devotee called it "I am holier than you " feeling.
Krishna,
"when some advaitin says that Krishna, Rama are mere objects of worship for better intense concentration and devotion is nothing but a means."
I totally agree with you,yes this is plain rubbish!Just arrogance of mind that is priding its 'knowledge'!If concentration of mind is the only purpose served by this sort of 'devotion',then the modern generation will be better off by repeating 'coco cola' japa ,as JK once cheekily suggested.(Pepsi devotees,please excuse!)Why suggest some old 'obscurantist' symbols and personas to the younger generation?
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Friends,
Here is an excellent talk by the sage of kanchi on the Harmony in all approaches and forms of worship.Please refer:
http://www.vedarahasya.net/namonama.htm
Namaskar.
I translated the biography of Sri Chandrasekhara Bharathi Mahaswamigal into German (Jagadgurus.org). I was particularly impressed by the fact that this jagadguru one day decided spontaneously to give up his life. He was found dead in a river. It was said: "There was no sign of drowning or of suffocation or struggle for life."
Conscious dying is so important.
No matter how great and inspiring the sayings and biographies of sages may be - in the end it is all a preparation for dying.
Ramos/Friends,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of sri Ramakrishna:
December 1882
In the afternoon Sri Ramakrishna was seated on the west porch of his room in the temple
garden at Dakshineswar. Among others, Baburam, Ramdayal, and M. were present. These
three were going to spend the night with the Master. M. intended to stay the following day
also, for he was having his Christmas holidays. Baburam had only recently begun to visit
the Master.
MASTER (to the devotees): "A man becomes liberated even in this life when he knows that
God is the Doer of all things. Once Keshab came here with Sambhu Mallick. I said to him,
'Not even a leaf moves except by the will of God.' Where is man's free will? All are under
the will of God. Nangta(Sri Ramakrishna's Guru , Totapuri-Ravi) was a man of great knowledge, yet even he was about to drown
himself in the Ganges. He stayed here eleven months. At one time he suffered from
stomach trouble. The excruciating pain made him lose control over himself, and he wanted
to drown himself in the river. There was a long shoal near the bathing-ghat. However far he
went into the river, he couldn't find water above his knees. Then he understood everything
and came back. At one time I was very ill and was about to cut my throat with a knife.
Therefore I say: 'O Mother, I am the machine and Thou art the Operator; I am the chariot
and Thou art the Driver. I move as Thou movest me; I do as Thou makest me do.' "
-----------------------------------
I remember reading a long time back how once Swami Vivekananda could not sleep one night;He said to his attendant-'I feel I am drowning in thousands of Bodies off the coast of Japan'.The next day the newspaper carried the news of a ship sinking off the coast of Japan.
Here is an excerpt from Swami Vivekananda's 'Inspired Talks':
There can be no physical death for us and no mental death, when we see that all is one. All bodies are mine; so even body is eternal, because the tree, the animal, the sun, the moon, the universe itself is my body; then how can it die? Every mind, every thought is mine, then how can death come? The Self is never born and never dies. When we realise this, all doubts vanish. "I am, I know, I love" — these can never be doubted. There is no hunger, for all that is eaten is eaten by me. If a hair falls out, we do not think we die; so if one body dies, it is but a hair falling."
-----------------------------------
Ramos,thanks very much for translating the lives of sages into German and making it available to a wider public.
Namaskar.
Regarding the mention of J.K., here is a quote from Sri Ramakrishna; ‘Even if my Guru is one who frequents the toddy shop, I will not superimpose any blemish on him. Why? Because I know that he is not going to lose his Guru-nature simply because of that. I have taken refuge in him not for examining and investigating his external life. That also is not my duty. Therefore, whatever happens, he alone is my Guru.’
Thank you, Ravi. My german translation of Swami Venkatesanandas Vasisthas Yoga was expected to be published this year. The State University of New York Press (SUNY) owns the copyright. We requested for permission to publish a year long (!) but didn't get any useful answer until now. There is a coming and going of applications but nothing happens.
Perhaps it's because the gods don't want it. I don't believe the reason to be the translation itself which is said to be good.
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,that reveals the charm of the Master,so utterly guileless and childlike.
"He is indeed a real man who has harmonized everything. Most people are one-sided. But I
find that all opinions point to the One. All views-the Sakta, the Vaishnava, the Vedantahave
that One for their centre. He who is formless is, again, endowed with form. It is He
who appears in different forms: The attributeless Brahman is my Father. God with
attributes is my Mother. Whom shall I blame? Whom shall I praise? The two pans of the
scales are equally heavy.'
"He who is described in the Vedas is also described in the Tantras and the Puranas. All of
them speak about the one Satchidananda. The Nitya and the Lila are the two aspects of the
one Reality. It is described in the Vedas as 'Om Satchidananda Brahman', in the Tantras as
'Om Satchidananda Siva', the ever-pure Siva, and in the Puranas as 'Om Satchidananda
Krishna'. All the scriptures, the Vedas, the Puranas, and the Tantras, speak only of one
Satchidananda. It is stated in the Vaishnava scripture that it is Krishna Himself who has
become Kali."
Sri Ramakrishna went to the porch for a few minutes and then returned. As he was going
out, Vishvamvhar's daughter, six or seven years old, saluted him. On returning to the room,
the Master began talking to the little girl and her companions, who were of the same age.
THE CHILD (to the Master): "I saluted you and you didn't even notice it."
MASTER (smiling): "Did you? I really didn't notice."
CHILD: "Then wait. I want to salute you again-the other foot too."
Sri Ramakrishna laughed and sat down. He returned the salute and bowed to the child,
touching the ground with his forehead. He asked her to sing. The child said, "I.swear I don't
sing." When the Master pressed her again, she said, "Should you press me when I said 'I
swear'?" The Master was very happy with the children and sang light and frivolous songs to
entertain them. He sang:
Come, let me braid your hair,
Lest your husband should scold you
When he beholds you!
The children and the devotees laughed."
Namaskar.
Dear everyone,
Till the state of non dual consciousness is attained, personal
god becomes necessary. So long one
keeps his personal to his person,
and not hurl stones on the personal
gods of others, it is okay. When it is not done, then only all the bad- blood ensues. A discourser, when he talks to a TV audience who have got multiple faiths, should confine himself in saying the glories of his personal god or Visishtadvaitam. Only when he transcends this limit, the problem comes. If everyone in the world has attained non dual consciousness, then why there should be Muslim terrorism? Why should there be Hindutva terrorism? Why should there be fights between Protestants and Catholics? This attainment of Oneness by everyone is not in the scheme of things. Atma chooses only a few to attain Atma Jnanam. We all start with personal gods, and thanks to Sri Bhagavan, we try to progress towards this Nonduality. Till such time, we will also be pained by such statements of other faiths. Regarding Guru, Kaivalyam and Ozhivil Odukkam clearly say that a true guru is one who has transcended the ego. Other gurus are said to be blind and if blind disciples go after him, both will fall into a pit. Further a Guru of a particular time, should also respect the standards of the society prescribed at that time, in which he lives., That is why Sri Bhagavan permitted separate food rows for brahmins and non brahmins. He also said when someone asked about birth control: See whether you can do death control first. Definitely, without the ego/mind swarming outward, JK would not have committed that act. Unless the six internal enemies, anger, lust,
greed etc., are conquered one cannot attain enlightenment.
Clemens Vargas Ramos,
Is Self Realization not for living the Present with choiceless and effortless awareness without the worries and troubles of the wandering mind? Conscious dying is a very small portion in the entire life of a Jnani.
Thanks.
Friends,
What is conscious dying?What is it that dies?If the Ego is unreal,how can it die?
All that is meant perhaps is that there is a Great concentration of fear and the release from that.In some it may happen suddenly like a quantum leap,in the others it may be left behind without any drama-Like papaji found one day that sadhana had left him, and he went to Sri Bhagavan to find out what happened!
Death is something like a long sleep and one is not afraid of death per se but is afraid of losing what one possesses.If the sense of possession is not there,death holds no terror.If one knows that nothing is lost even in Death and one continues from where one left off,just like after a good night's sleep,one gets back to business as usual,even the fear of losing the possession may not be there.
The other way of looking at is-it is only when one is awaken to spiritual living that he/she lives,or else one is already dead-as Jesus ,the Christ so wonderfully said-Let the Dead bury the Dead,follow me.
Every time we are assailed with Fear,we consciously experience death.Physical death may be a very pleasant experience,just like sleep is.(Depending on the karmic baggage)
When Echamma passed away, on the next
morning devotees described her last
moments. Sri Bhagavan asked: Was
she conscious at the time of death?
The devotees said that she was
in out of consciousness, but towards
the end, she asked: Has the food
been sent to Sri Bhagavan today?
And when someone said Yes, she peacefully merged within the Self.
The question of Sri Bhagavan whether she was conscious at the time of death, is very relevant.
I think this is conscious dying
leaving the body in full contemplation about the Guru or the Self till the last moment of death. Sri Sri Ravishankar is conducting courses on art of living. He should add also the art of dying. One can die consciously and that too with God
/Guru in Heart is a good dying to
enter the gateways of liberation.
This is possible of course, only when during living, one holds on to Guru/God without any break. One should take the support of guru/god and deal with the world. But most of us are taking the support of world and deal with the guru/god. Brahmacharyam is the
act of charyam, taking the support of Brahman, for ever during the life.
salutations to all:
subramanian/ravi/clemens/sankar:
say a person passes away in sleep, or dies in an accident (road tragedy or a bomb explosion), or departs in one massive cardiac arrest etc etc., then what kind of a 'conscious dying' are we talking about? :-)
hold a second before you jump to give an answer or quote anybody - i suppose the one who ventures to answer has experienced 'dying'...
hahahaha
[pardon my impudence but to quote X,Y,Z all the time implies one has never 'grown up'; for a change, talk like a 'man' if you can :-)]
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from the 'Reminiscences of Swami Vivekananda' by Manamanath Ganguli-about Sadhu Amulya who became a 'Fallen man' and how Swamiji yet calls him a Great soul!
"During the Christmas holidays some scholars came from Agra. A few of them were professors. It was about nine o'clock in the morning. Inside the courtyard of the Math there were a few ordinary benches on which the visitors were seated while Swamiji took a chair near them. The college dons put their questions one by one and Swamiji answered them with due gravity. The problems were various, some philosophical and some social or political. They seemed to be quite satisfied and after a while they all went away.
I was sitting at a little distance and tried to follow the trend of the conversation. Swamiji would occasionally look at me which made me feel at home.
It was then about twelve in the noon. Suddenly the Swami asked me. "Sadhu Amulya lives at Allahabad. Do you know him? How does he do? Tell me all about him."
I said, "I know him for many years. He used to serve all without any self-interest. His courage and spirit of service endeared him to all. Once there was an epidemic of cholera and he nursed the helpless and the needy without the least fear of his life. So he was loved by the rich and the poor who considered him as a congenial friend in times of distress."
Sadhuji was the name given to Amulya who then wore white robes as do the Bramhacharins, But later on he put on gerua clothes. By some he was then called guruji. Many of his devotees were addicts to ganja, charas and bhang. They offered him these and when guruji had smoked a little, they got the prasada. By and by he began to drink, and women of questionable character also visited him. After some time he left all clothes and lived like Nagas. When I saw him last he was a fully fallen man. On hearing this sorry tale of Amulya, Swamiji kept silent for some time. Then he said, "Ah! a great soul — a great soul!" He added, "For him this life is lost. But he shall be free in his next birth. Amulya used to read with me in the college. He was a good student. He had a wide vision and was a follower of the path of knowledge.... Sadhu Amulya had no spiritual guru. When the disciple takes a wrong move and is about to fall, it is the spiritual guide who guards him and the disciple regains his balance." I could see that Swamiji was visibly moved. He was very sympathetic. Though I knew him to be a great moralist, yet his love for the fallen made me wonder at his nature which was stern from outside but very tender within. Then he addressed me, "Manmatha, this time when you go to Allahabad, go to Amulya and tell him that it is I who sent you to ask what he wants. Whatever be the things that he asks of you, make it a point to supply him with them."
Accordingly, a few days after I went to guruji and said, "Sir, Swamiji has asked me to come to you. otherwise I would not come to you at all. Please tell me what are the things that you need." He seemed not to mind my taunt and exclaimed with a beaming face. "What! Swamiji has sent you — Swamiji? What did he say of me?" I reported all that I had heard him say.
continued....
Friends,
Swamiji continued...
"For some time he was silent with an emotion that overwhelmed him, and he tried to suppress it. Then he said, "Bring me about four seers of ghee from cow's milk, and some fruits." In a few days I brought these to him and he expressed his satisfaction. That was the last that I saw him. In a few weeks I came to know of his death. Most probably Sadhu Amulya left his life by not taking any food at all. He was a peculiar combination of a raja-yogi and an Aghori (of the Tantrika school). Perhaps he took nothing after I saw him except the little present I had made to him in the name of Swamiji.
After telling me about Sadhu Amulya, Swamiji asked me, "What is that you want to know from me? You may put any question you like." I said, "I have seen your lectures on maya. It has appealed to me. But I have not understood it. Please let me know what is maya. For a while he was silent. Then he said, "If you have anything else to know, you can ask me." I said, "Sir, I have nothing more to ask. If a knower of Brahman like you cannot enlighten me, then it will remain a closed book to me during this life." At this Swamiji began a discourse on maya. He was speaking fast and I followed his words and the logic. By and by, my mind lost the contact of the sense-organs. I experienced a subtle world around me which was much finer than the gross world. I could see with my open eyes the Math, the trees, and everything before me vibrating. If you look above a large fire you can see a vibration. The objects were oscillating and vibrating before my eyes just like that. I was conscious of my uncommon experience and asked myself, "What is this that I see?"
I looked around me and saw there was vibration everywhere. Slowly even Swamiji vanished from my eyes. Even then I could hear his voice, but I did not follow its meaning. Then suddenly I was aware of a vibration within my brain and there was only the void.
Again I could see and hear the Swami and then followed the meaning as well. But my mind was conscious of my ego, and it no more exerted as it did before as I thought that I knew the meaning of maya.
I, who never had the courage to speak before the Swami, considered myself a bubble in the ocean of maya in which the Swami was also another. The difference was lost to me for the moment. The giant personality of the Swami and his great spiritual power and everything seemed to be a coincidence in the ocean that Swamiji called maya. But it was nothing but an undivided chit — the Cosmic Consciousness.
Then I said, "Swamiji, you are also in the maya. Your activities of the Math, schools, daridra-narayanaseva (service of God in the poor), hospitals, the Mission — everything is maya. What is the need of all this? You yourself are within the meshes of maya."
At this he smiled and kept quiet for some time. It was through his grace that I considered myself as one with the maya. And now again I entered the little shell of my own self. I saw the Math, the Swami, and everything once again in its true perspective, i.e. the one I was used to have before this experience. A little time before I had spoken with a high pitched voice and that in a piquant manner, and now I was ashamed of having done so. Swamiji and myself were not of the same substance any more and I felt the vast difference.
Swamiji must have known that now I was normal once again. Then, he said. "Yes; you have said aright. I am playing with maya. If you do not like this play of maya, you can go to a deep cave of the Himalayas. There you can get yourself lost in, tapasya (spiritual effort)."
It was high time for lunch and everyone was kept waiting. Swamiji stood up and I fell prostrate at his feel. He was Shiva in person, and I touched his feet."
Namaskar.
Ravi, Subramanian, S,
I understand (not experienced) that two kinds of conscious death are associated with a Jnani:
1) Death of the continuously thinking mind to become a Jnani.
2) Videha Mukti, the final physical death with conscious absorption into Self.
Thanks.
Bhagavan Ramana's death experience in Madurai is the death of his thinking mind (i.e. the thinker).
Bhagavan's physical death experience at tortoise rock gave him a glimpse of the physical death with complete awareness.
Thanks.
Ravi,
Thanks for the great account on Swami Vivekananda, truly inspiring producing goose bumps with awe and admiration.
The more and more I read about Swami Vivekananda, I find him to be an incarnation of Ishwara like Adi Sankaracharya.
Thanks.
z,
"Why dont you see yourself as a Jnani from tomorrow and you wont have any problems."
I am not able to do that. Hence I am in this forum.
@Subramanian. R
I think this is conscious dying leaving the body in full contemplation about the Guru or the Self till the last moment of death. Sri Sri Ravishankar is conducting courses on art of living. He should add also the art of dying. One can die consciously and that too with God/Guru in Heart is a good dying to enter the gateways of liberation.This is possible of course, only when during living, one holds on to Guru/God without any break. One should take the support of guru/god and deal with the world. But most of us are taking the support of world and deal with the guru/god.
Yes, I believe this to be the only valid position to deal with death.
I remember an interesting dialogue between Major Chadwick and Ramana. Chadwick wanted to know whether it would be possible to realize the self by murdering oneself (by car accident or something like that). His idea was that death would promote self realization. I believe the answer of Ramana was something like: No, because there would be a heavy (mental and psychic) shock.
Ravishankars watered down teachings and commercial, self promotional tactics can not be taken seriously.
Friends,
Why this preoccupation with death?Have we understood enough of living that we now have to shift attention to Dying?
I find that we are carried away with 'ideas','thoughts' of this or that.
To think of God at the time of death!Or we thinking of him when alive.Have we made it uniterrupted?
I am reminded of a mullah Nasrudeen that Rajneesh narrated.
"It was a hot summer night.Mullah Nasrudeen went to bed.He was tossing this way and that way as it was hot.It was very hot.He decided that he will take of all clothes.He took off one by one his upper garment,then the inner garments and just stopped short of removing his cap-He is a Mulla and what if perchance someone knocked at the door at the dead of the night and he out of habit just scramble out of his bed and open the door."Will I not be caught off guard without my head gear.So let me leave it as it is -on my head".Off he went to sleep,snugly knowing 'all is well'.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar
A Prophecy
"Bhagavan's real power will be seen not now, but only a few hundred years after his physical body is no more. But we will not be around to see those days". Prophecy by Sri Muruganar
Dear Clemens,
Yes. Sri Bhagavan told Major Chadwick, that it would not be possible to attain self realization
by jumping towards a speeding car
or jumping down from the high rise
building. Because during final moments, such a person for a trice of a second would fear death or about his inappropriate decision.
There is no "dying" really. All dying and everything about it is only the mind. There is no dying, no death experiences as well. It is all just in mind. Why talk about death now? we can talk about death after dying! Bhagavan would say!
All that we know about death is just what we have "seen" like in a cinema. The fact is, we can or nobody can ever see or remember their own birth or death, for you are birthless and deathless.
What death are we talking about really?
@Subramanian. R
... for a trice of a second would fear death or about his inappropriate decision.
That is it. Therefore a long preparation of conscious dying is so important. A fearful mind cannot have any chance to realize the self. And death is the last chance in bodily life to realize it. I remember kind of my own death experience: the ground under my feet vanished and the abyss of outer space opened below of me. I made a rejecting gesture with my arms and it disappeared. But later I regretted it.
I believe that a moment of fear at time of death would revive the mind and would lead to reincarnation.
I think that Ramanagiri is another example of consciuos dying:
For more than an hour before his death he was completely withdrawn in a deep meditative state, with his hair standing on end. At his last moment he whispered ‘Let us go,’ and he left his body in true yogic fashion, through the fontanelle in the top of his head. Blood was seen to ooze out of a hole there.
@I
What death are we talking about really?
We are talking of the power of illusions.
@Clemens
Where is illusion really? for, to have power in first place?
What is "power"
Who has "power"
hj/Friends,
"Bhagavan's real power will be seen not now, but only a few hundred years after his physical body is no more. But we will not be around to see those days".
Is this what Sri Muruganar said?!!!
What is 'Bhagavan's power'?These sort of statements may be okay when made about about some lesser soul.
Somehow this sort of a statement detracts from the beauty of Sri Bhagavan's Life and the power of his presence that countless have already experienced /experiencing.
One may as well prophesy that Dakshinamurthy's power will be known in the future!Sounds pretty silly!Sorry about that.If it is true that Sri Muruganar made this statement,it may mean that more and more people would come to understand the significance of Sri Bhagavan's advent and teaching.Even this seems to smack of 'mystery mongering' and detracts from the Pure no nonsense teaching(not teachings!) of Sri Bhagavan-Self alone is.
Namaskar.
@Ravi
What is 'Bhagavan's power'?These sort of statements may be okay when made about about some lesser soul.
What is a lesser soul, and what is a higher soul?
@I
Where is illusion really? for, to have power in first place? What is "power"? Who has "power"?
Dear I,
who is asking this and why? Can you answer this question without seeking refuge in theory? Please don't explain it to me. Explain it to yourself.
@Clemens
who is asking this and why? Can you answer this question without seeking refuge in theory? Please don't explain it to me. Explain it to yourself.
Who is the "You" and who is the "Me"
i,
"What is a lesser soul"
You know it.Don't you?If you do not know it,you may be one.If you know it,well you know it!
namaskar.
@ Clemens and @ Ravi,
Do not take my questions as negative. It was raised out of intensity, as to how much we avoid such uncomfortable realms in Self Enquiry. To meet such questions really is really meeting death face on.
It is not intended for mere intellectual gibberish!
Dear Clemens,
Yes. You are correct. The fear of death will take us away from liberation. During the 'death experience', Sri Bhagavan DID NOT
FEAR DEATH. He just observer, let
me see, what it is? There was no fear at all. Even in Tortoise Rock, He just observed, how the scene before Him vanished slowly and a white screen was enveloping Him slowly. He also observed that the blood circulation stopped slowly and the body became blue.
He never bothered. Only Vasudeva
Sastri [like us] cried that Sri
Bhagavan was dying! Apart from
Ramanagiri, another gentleman who just ohserved his death was Soudousky. He went inside the toilet and sat on the commode. There was some noise from the throat and the people wanted to come in and see. He merely said:
No. There is no need.
i,
"It was raised out of intensity, as to how much we avoid such uncomfortable realms in Self Enquiry."
To whom it is raised?Please take my response in like fashion.Please understand that usual conventions need not be dispensed with.If we are truly intense,we will not be 'enquiring'.
Namaskar.
@ Ravi
The intention was to only arrive at this. Conventions are not dispensed, it is part of Conventions -
To bring into light as to why do we stay put with just discussions and more and more thoughts and analyses? When we look deep within, the very mind itself is feeding on intellectuality in the name of Self Enquiry itself!
We may have to ask ourselves, once again - What is to Enquire, what is Self Enquiry, Who am I...
Contd.
Having received the prescription from the doctor to intake the medicine and instead of consuming the medicine, aren't we simply trying to understand what the medicine is all about?
i,
Yes,I agree.Since we cannot discuss self enquiry,shall we discuss weather?Chennai is unusually cold this time around.
Just Kidding.
Friend,for the Bhakta,he is definitely at an advantage here.He can discuss the same thing over and over again.Even trivial things,like what Sri Bhagavan had for morning breakfast-may be one idli!He can share this with all those interested in such things.
Any takers!Just kidding.Yes,everything is wonderful for the Bhakta;his treasure is something inexhaustible and he never tires of repeating the same things over and over again.If you have anything to share ,I am all ears.
namaskar.
Yes, this is what I read Maruganar said. I also think as well, that it may mean that more and more people would come to understand the significance and depth of Sri Bhagavan's direction and teaching.
Bhagavan has said,
if we don't do "atma Vichara", then the mind would do only "ulaga* Vichara"
Are we really doing Atma Vichara? Even though, it appears that we are talking and enquiring about Self Enquiry, it still is "Ulaga* Vichara"
*Ulaga - World
Friends,
At the Feet of Bhagavan by Sri T K Sunadaresa Iyer is one gem of a Book on Sri Bhagavan.Here is the story of Kannappar as narrated by Sri Bhagavan,but before we go to that,TKS gives the gist of the whole thing so beautifully:
8. BHAGAVAN TELLS OF
KANNAPPAR THE SAINT
Devotees of Bhagavan Sri Ramana know well that
the one book which radically influenced His inner
life while He was still at school was the Periapuranam in
Tamil, written by the poet-saint Sekkilar. This book
contains the lives of the sixty-three saints of Tamil Nadu
who, by their acts of supreme devotion or merit, won
Siva’s Grace and came to the state whence one never again
returns to worldliness. Bhagavan never made distinction
between bhakti (devotion) or jnana (knowledge), provided
this true State is thereby obtained: “In that state bhakti is
no other than jnana, jnana nothing else but bhakti”; this
is Bhagavan’s experience of them both.
In His perpetual silence, Sri Ramana was looked upon
as Sri Dakshinamurti, and His teachings always emphasised
the Karya-karana (cause-and-effect) aspect. The emphasis
on this aspect was so great that there seemed to be no
room in His teaching for anything but pure reason. People
even used to feel that it was all cold and heartless logic.
But those who have lived with Bhagavan know only too
well that Bhagavan’s heart — a strange term, this; is
Bhagavan different from Heart? — was full of feeling for
suffering humanity. His great disciple, Sri Kavyakanta
Ganapati Muni, used to say that Bhagavan had the light
of the Teacher Sri Adi Sankara, the heart of
Sri Ramanujacharya and the analytical powers of
Sri Madhvacharya. Be that as it may, on several occasions
Bhagavan revealed in His life the aspect of true Bhakti.
Once, on the night after the Karthikai Deepam, the
deities Arunachala and Apithakuchambal were in
procession round the Hill. When the procession came in
front of our Ashram, we offered flower garlands, coconut
and camphor, and after being waved before them, burning
camphor was taken to Bhagavan on His seat in the Old
Hall. The devotees took this camphor, along with the
ash-prasad (vibhuti) of Arunachaleswara, and began to
wave it before Bhagavan. But He exclaimed, “Why all
this? The Son is included in the Father!”
...continued....
Friends,
Sri Bhagvan's wonderful narration of the story of Kannappar,the Great hunter devotee:
Once someone placed the Periapuranam in Tamil
prose in Bhagavan’s hands, and He began reading out of
it. Now Bhagavan was a past master in story-telling, and
he used to tell stories in hundreds. His solo-acting was
ever the admiration of His devotees; His modulation of
voice for different characters, suiting gestures and postures
for each incident, was wonderfully effective. His devotees
never missed a chance of being in the Hall on such
occasions, so as to enjoy and benefit by the recitals.
Bhagavan began to read out the life of Kannappar,
the great devotee saint. He went on reading incidents in
his early life, and how he went to the forest and found
Kudumi Devar, the Sivalinga, his Lord, up the Kalahasti
Hill in the Chitoor district (of Andhra state). Then he
told how Kannappar worshipped the Sivalinga with water
At the Feet of Bhagavan 29
carried in his own mouth, flowers taken from his own
hair, and the well-cooked and tasted beef prepared for his
own meal — knowing no better and having no better to
offer his beloved Lord. The way in which the ordained
priest, Siva Gochariar, resented the intruding defiler of
the sacred Sivalinga was so characteristically brought out
by Bhagavan, with His own explanations of the rites and
the meanings of the mantras used in the worship, that it
enriched the recital greatly to the benefit and admiration
of the devotees.
...continued...
Friends,
...Sri Bhagavan on ThiNNanAr(Kannappar)continued...
Then came the scene of scenes, when the Lord in
that Sivalinga tested Kannappar and incidentally revealed
to Siva Gochariar the intensity of the forest hunter’s
worship from a place of hiding. He saw the unexpected
trickling of blood from one of the eyes on that Sivalinga;
he saw Kannappar running to and fro for herbs, and
treating the Lord’s eye with them. Then he saw how,
finding them all useless, Kannappar plucked out one of
his own eyes and applied it to that in the Sivalinga; then,
seeing the treatment was effective, he ran into ecstasies of
joyful dance.
When Bhagavan came to the story of how Kannappar
was plucking out his second eye to heal the second of the
Lord, and of how the Sivalinga extended a hand to stop
him, saying “Stop, Kannappar!” Bhagavan’s voice choked,
His body perspired profusely, His hairs stood on end,
tears gushed out from His eyes; He could hardly utter a
word, and there was silence, pin-drop silence in the Hall.
All were dumbfounded that this great Jnani could be so
30 At the Feet of Bhagavan
overpowered by emotion and ecstasy at the great huntersaint’s
devotion. After a while Sri Bhagavan quietly closed
the book, dried the tears in His eyes with the ends of His
towel, and laid aside the book, saying, “No, I can’t go on
any further.”
Then we could realise the import of His words in
Aksharamanamalai: “Having become silent, if one remains
like a stone, can that be called real silence?” His blossomed
Heart had in it the perfect warmth of devotion, no less
than the supreme light of Knowledge.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Friends,
Here you will find a rapturous translation of the Periya Puranama in English verse!Please visit this site ,where the story of the Great Kannappar and other Great ones is rendered with Great devotion.Please read the poosalar nayanar's story-a clear vindication of how The Vedas and The Brahmins(as well as other varnas)were held in such high regard those days and how Sekkizhar,the poet saint has captured it all.
Please visit:
http://www.shaivam.org/english/sen_th12_kannappa.htm
This is a boon for all the devotees of Sri Bhagavan,since this work is truly an incomparable one,and will give an insight into what shaped the inner life of Sri Bhagavan in his boyhood days.
Interestingly,I found in this Shaivam site,all the songs in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna Featured!
Namaskar.
http://www.shaivam.org/english/sen_th12_kannappa.htm
That's great. I was often looking for it. Do you think it is complete?
Ramos,
Yes.I was thinking of you,that you would like to translate this into German.
Namaskar.
Yes. www.Shaivam.org is a great
website. Apart from Tevaram,
Tiruvachakam, Periya Puranam, it also gives the songs of later day
Saivites and advaitis like Tayumanavar and VaLLalar Ramalinga
Swamigal.
Friends,
Here is Saint Manickavachagar's reference to the peerless Love of Kannapar(Tiruvachakam,Tirukkothumbi(The Humming Bee):
There was no love in me like Kannappan's;
when He, my Sire, saw this, me poor
Beyond compare, in grace He made His own;
He spake, and bade me come to Him.
With heavenly grace adorned He shines, and wears
white ashes, and the golden dust !
To Him, - of mercy infinite, - go thou,
and breathe his Praise, O Humming-bee ! (16)
-----------------------------------
The mind of the devotee is likened to the Humming bee-bereft of all karmic loads,it flits about lightly,and Manickavachakar bids it sing the praise of the Lord.
"The bee buzzes as long as it is not sitting on a flower. It becomes silent when it begins to
sip the honey. But sometimes, intoxicated with the honey, it buzzes again."-Sri Ramakrishna,in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
VaLLalar Ramalingam speaks highly
of three Saiva Saints among the sixtythree. One is Siruthondar, who gave his son's body flesh finely cooked to Siva, who came as a disguise as a Siva Bhairagi. The second is Tiru Neelakanta Kuyavanar. He was a potter. He and his wife did not touch each other because his wife incriminated him about his alleged infedility. They grew old without
conjugal enjoyment and Siva appeared to help them out. Both were Siva Bhaktas. The third is Kannappar. Kannappar's period is the oldest among the 63 saints. He got liberation in 6 days in Kalahasti through his great sacrfice. The story goes that even though he was a hunter, he had done a lot of good karmas in his previous birth. Saint Manikkavachagar speaks about Kannappar in more than one song in Tiruvachakam.
S.,
Yes, should have been "not"...
Yes, that my prob too - the implementation part of it. And the complaint was abt that itself - as in, can I complain about my weaknesses and beg Him for more of His Grace or should I just shut my mouth even so? I am pathetic in living His teachings... In ideal vichara followers/surrendered people, as you mentioned this Q doesn't even arise. But for me... :(
Ravi,
But Ravi, the great saints pleaded the Lord after they attained the highest. Isn't it really humility, to plead even after attaining the highest?
I have one more Q. Has anyone tired being like what Sage Vasishta advised to Sri Rama - to act as thoguh you are affected and yet maintain distance from inside? Whenever I try this, I only get lost in the "play". I forget the original cause. Is it actually Jnani's state that Sage Vasishta told to Rama, or is it for a sadhaka too?
Hi All,
Stumbled into this blog... checkout the pics. I hadn't seen most of those posted there. Thought you too might enjoy as I did.
forgot to post the URL. Here you go...
http://sililia.over-blog.com/
can I complain,
I recommend reading the Life of Sri Ramakrishna and The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.We will find all the answers, and all doubts will be cleared.Most importantly we will develop a direct taste of Bhakti.Once tasted,it will never leave us.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
can i complain:
am more or less an 'agnostic', thus 'begging' god for grace doesn't come naturally to me. on the contrary, perhaps there is none i loathe more than this so-called god, if any :-) well, it's another thing, because of my loathing 'god', i will be free faster than any of you here... hahahaha [how about that for 'absence of humility', or even 'self-confidence'] :-))) surely, 'questions' trouble me but mostly i either dismiss it through vichAra or do mathematics! not to entertain is the thing - the only 'questions' worth entertaining or pondering are 'mathematical' questions :-)
i love the tamizh tEvaraNgaL and the humility what you see 'there' is beautifully deceptive! do you think bhagavAn was 'humble'? who was left to be humble or vain? all efforts to 'cultivate' humility is a pretension and the very effort to be such reveals the absence of it!
as far as all these instructions in the gItA or vAsishtam etc. are concerned, they are mostly impossible to practice without some inner ripeness. to try them out (a famous example is people trying to implement 'karmaNyEva adhikArastE...') superficially is simply to treat the symptom and ignore the disease! what to do then? let me say what i do - keep trying vichAra & be the way you think is fine and do things what seem ok to you at that time - don't copy anybody (including bhagavAn; did bhagavAn copy anyone?, no, isn't it?) self-enquiry will on its own bring all the changes that are necessary while saving one from the illusion of surrender and other quarter-baked understandings of any scripture :-)))
S.,
That was quite a strong message. Much needed here. Thanks. :)
This is beautiful! "The bee buzzes as long as it is not sitting on a flower. It becomes silent when it begins to
sip the honey. But sometimes, intoxicated with the honey, it buzzes again."-Sri Ramakrishna
Further to the discussion that if you don't do atma vichara you do uluga vichara. Actually mosty of us don't even do uluga vichara, we just wallow in the world without question.
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.
"Prayer and holy company & Earnest longing
MASTER: "Prayer and the company of holy men. You cannot get rid of an ailment without
the help of a physician. But it is not enough to be in the company of religious people only
for a day. You should constantly seek it, for the disease has become chronic. Again, you
can't understand the pulse rightly unless you live with a physician. Moving with him
constantly, you learn to distinguish between the pulse of phlegm and the pulse of bile."
DEVOTEE: "What is the good of holy company?"
MASTER: "It begets yearning for God. It begets love of God. Nothing whatsoever is
achieved in spiritual life without yearning. By constant living in the company of holy men,
the soul becomes restless for God. This yearning is like the state of mind of a man who has
someone ill in the family. His mind is in a state of perpetual restlessness, thinking how the
sick person may be cured. Or again, one should feel a yearning for God like the yearning of
a man who has lost his job and is wandering from one office to another in search of work. If
he is rejected at a certain place which has no vacancy, he goes there again the next day and
inquires, 'Is there an vacancy today?'
"There is another way: earnestly praying to God. God is our very own. We should say to
Him: 'O God, what is Thy nature? Reveal Thyself to me. Thou must show Thyself to me;
for why else hast Thou created me?' Some Sikh devotees once said to me, 'God is full of
compassion.' I said: 'But why should we call Him compassionate? He is our Creator. What
is there to be wondered at if He is kind to us? Parents bring up their children. Do you call
that an act of kindness? They must act that way.' Therefore we should force our demands
on God. He is our Father and Mother, isn't He? If the son demands his patrimony and gives
up food and drink in order to enforce his demand, then the parents hand his share over to
him three years before the legal time. Or when the child demands some pice from his
mother, and says over and over again: 'Mother, give me a couple of pice. I beg you on my
knees!' - then the mother, seeing his earnestness, and unable to bear it any more, tosses the
money to him.
"There is another benefit from holy company. It helps one cultivate discrimination between
the Real and the unreal. God alone is the Real, that is to say, the Eternal Substance, and the
world is unreal, that is to say, transitory. As soon as a man finds his mind wandering away
to the unreal, he should apply discrimination. The moment an elephant stretches out its
trunk to eat a plantain-tree in a neighbour's garden, it gets a blow from the iron goad of the
driver."
-----------------------------------
What is Humility?Is Prayer'Begging'?What is 'Begging'?What is 'imitation'(Recall that The Imitation of Christ by Thomas A Kempis is one of the most inspirational books-that Swami Vivekananda carried during his wandering days in India as a monk)-All these will be clear if we keep Holy Company.Or else we will be trapped in our 'ideas'.
One of the simplest ways of keeping Holy company is through reading the lives and teachings of the Great ones.
The understanding that comes through keeping Holy company is vastly different than the Logical understanding of the External mind.
Namaskar.
s,
"they are mostly impossible to practice without some inner ripeness."
"Men must endure their going hence, even as their coming hither; ripeness is all."-William Shakespeare.
Ripeness comes through Practice ,rightly or wrongly.If rightly practised,it helps;If wrongly practised,it still helps-as long as one is earnest,all these are helpful.
Living is hazardous,it does not mean we can avoid living.If we carefully examine what we do from getting up in the morning,we may find that we are in fact doing many an 'act' unconsciously,Like brushing teeth mechanically,Swallowing food without masticating it,gulping water instead of sipping it slowly,Asking others 'How are you?'and taking their response'Very Fine',moving onto 'other Professional occupations' -all highly compromised - what The Gita or the Yoga Vasishta is advocating is to be completely 'aware' of these small 'acts' (only we are 'ignoring'those acts.)Just paying 'attention' to these 'acts' and doing it the proper way ,is immensely practical and accessible and can be done and must be done.
This in itself leads to 'ripeness'(not just 'self enquiry'!)and what is more it may lead to all the rest.
Namaskar.
Hi Ravi,
“ ….. what The Gita or the Yoga Vasishta is advocating is to be completely 'aware' of these small 'acts' (only we are 'ignoring'those acts.)Just paying 'attention' to these 'acts' and doing it the proper way ,is immensely practical and accessible and can be done and must be done.”
Well, from what little one has gleaned from poring over these 2 august texts, Ravi, this seems to be quite off the mark. In fact, what you say would make them supportive of the Buddhist “satipatthana”
ideas, not of how these ideas should be understood, but how as they are commonly misunderstood nowadays. (Not that I intend to decry “satipatthana” in any manner, or even the very popular vipassana meditation associated with it).
But in my humble opinion, the BG & YV advocate quite a different thing. Or maybe it is just that I need to go back and study the 2 texts again!
Best wishes
Arvind,
I agree with you.I have just started the alphabets A,B,C,D-Where is the question of learning a language when one does not even know the alphabets?The Gita covers a vast ground and the Nature of action is quite subtle-and is not dfferent than being itself.
I do not intend to go into the detailed ramifications-I have just started with the Basics of 'Achara'-Like sitting and Eating as opposed to Standing and eating,etc;Quite basic,starting at a physical level.
There is asevere shortage of time,besides inclinaton to write!
Namaskar
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
(To Hazra) "A perfect soul, even after attaining Knowledge, practises devotions or observes
religious ceremonies to set an example to others. I go to the Kali temple and I bow before
the holy pictures in my room; therefore others do the same. Further, if a man has become
habituated to such ceremonies, he feels restless if he does not observe them.
"One day I saw a sannyasi under the banyan-tree. He had put the salagram on the same
carpet with his guru's sandals. He was worshipping them. I said to him, 'If you have
attained Knowledge to that extent, then why such formal worship at all?' He replied: 'What
difference does it make? Since I do everything else, why not this too? Sometimes I offer the
flowers at the guru's feet and sometimes to God.'
"One cannot renounce work as long as one has a body. As long as there is mud at the
bottom of the lake, bubbles will be produced.
Advice to Hazra - Scriptures and sadhana
(To Hazra) "If there is knowledge of one, there is also knowledge of many. What will you
achieve by mere study of the scriptures? The scriptures contain a mixture of sand and sugar,
as it were. It is extremely difficult to separate the sugar from the sand. Therefore one should
learn the essence of the scriptures from the teacher or from a sadhu. Afterwards what does
one care for books?
(To the devotees) "Gather all the information and then plunge in. Suppose a pot has
dropped in a certain part of a lake. Locate the spot and dive there.
"One should learn the essence of the scriptures from the guru and then practise sadhana. If
one rightly follows spiritual discipline, then one directly sees God. The discipline is said to
be rightly followed only when one plunges in. What will a man gain by merely reasoning
about the words of the scriptures? Ah, the fools! They reason themselves to death over
information about the path. They never take the plunge. What a pity!
"You may say, even though you dive deep you are still in danger of sharks and crocodiles,
of lust and anger. But dive after rubbing your body with turmeric powder; then sharks and
crocodiles will not come near you. The turmeric is discrimination and renunciation."
Namaskar.
Friends,
I warmy recommend Sri Aurobindo's Excellet Essays on the Gita-one of the very best that i have come across-for sheer sweep and depth and objectivity of insight ;that wonderfully avoids casting the teachings into a 'specific mould' and trying to force meaning into it(as Advaitic or otherwise).
Only for serious readers as this is no easy reading!Here is an excerpt:
The argument of the Gita resolves itself into three great steps
by which action rises out of the human into the divine plane
leaving the bondage of the lower for the liberty of a higher law.
First, by the renunciation of desire and a perfect equality works
have to be done as a sacrifice by man as the doer, a sacrifice to
a deity who is the supreme and only Self though by him not yet
realised in his own being. This is the initial step. Secondly, not
only the desire of the fruit, but the claim to be the doer of works
has to be renounced in the realisation of the Self as the equal, the
inactive, the immutable principle and of all works as simply the
operation of universal Force, of the Nature-Soul, Prakriti, the
unequal, active, mutable power. Lastly, the supreme Self has to
be seen as the supreme Purusha governing this Prakriti, of whom
the soul in Nature is a partial manifestation, by whom all works
are directed, in a perfect transcendence, through Nature. To him
love and adoration and the sacrifice of works have to be offered;
the whole being has to be surrendered to Him and the whole
consciousness raised up to dwell in this divine consciousness so
that the human soul may share in His divine transcendence of
Nature and of His works and act in a perfect spiritual liberty.
The first step is Karmayoga, the selfless sacrifice of works,
and here the Gita’s insistence is on action. The second is
Jnanayoga, the self-realisation and knowledge of the true nature
of the self and the world; and here the insistence is on
knowledge; but the sacrifice of works continues and the path of
Works becomes one with but does not disappear into the path of
Knowledge. The last step is Bhaktiyoga, adoration and seeking
of the supreme Self as the Divine Being, and here the insistence is
on devotion; but the knowledge is not subordinated, only raised,
vitalised and fulfilled, and still the sacrifice of works continues;
the double path becomes the triune way of knowledge, works
and devotion. And the fruit of the sacrifice, the one fruit still
placed before the seeker, is attained, union with the divine Being
and oneness with the supreme divine nature."
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Friends, the exquisite philosophy of Yoga Vasistha not even recommends vichara. It recommends to see the world as pure illusion or divine act. In a natural way in this illusion is included "i", "you" and "others". Another natural result of this is devotion and silence.
Ramos/Friends,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
MAHIMA: "Can a man live in the world if his mind is once directed to God?"
See God in the world
MASTER: "Why not? Where will he go away from the world? I realize that wherever I live
I am always in the Ayodhya of Rama. This whole world is Rama's Ayodhya. After
receiving instruction from His teacher, Rama said that He would renounce the world.
Dasaratha sent the sage Vasishtha to Rama to dissuade Him. Vasishtha found Him filled
with intense renunciation. He said to Rama: 'First of all, reason with me, Rama; then You
may leave the world. May I ask You if this world is outside, God? If that is so, then You
may give it up.' Rama found that it is God alone who has become the universe and all its
living beings. Everything in the world appears real on account of God's reality behind it.
Thereupon Rama became silent.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Dear Can I complain?.
You say you are more or less an agnostic. Let it be so. For you
develop this agnostism, there must
a guru, is it not/ He may be your
class mate, or Jeal Paul Sartre,
or Ingersoll or our own Saravaka,
who is mentioned in puranas. Now what you should do is, to put faith in his teachings and proceed. Guru-bhakti is more than Siva-bhakti. This Guru one day will tell you the Truth.
God is dead - Nietzhe
Nietzhe is dead - God
Both Nietzhe and God are never born and are never to die - Gaudapada.
I remember a saying: The whole world belongs to three groups: The one not knowing the guru, the one knowing him, but being torn between trust und doubt, and the one following him. Anyone here knows the origin of this saying?
Dear Can I complain?
You may ask how a agnostic guru
can deliver the agnostic disciple,
to liberation. It is possible. If
you show ardent faith and devotion
to that agnostic guru, you will, as
devotion evolves further, surrender to him. What is total surrender? It is submission of the ego at guru's feet. When the ego is lost, then it is egoless state, which is liberation..
salutations to all:
subramanian:
it's me (S.) who spoke about being an agnostic, not "can i complain" :-)
why should there be a 'guru' for being an agnostic? one can always learn mathematical principles from a teacher but there is no 'gurudom' there, for the truths of mathematics are self-verifiable to anyone who is willing to think hard! have told earlier too, and i repeat here - i love bhagavAn not because he is a guru but his method of self-enquiry is open for verification; i don't have to place any prior beliefs in the efficacy of self-enquiry for it to bear fruit. you or others may then say - 'if not faith, what makes you try vichAra?' why can't it be curiosity? at best, will be free; at worst, nothing will happen, and if nothing happens, so what?
the desire to be free is not the same as insecurity of getting done with this so-called cycle of births & deaths (no such thing may exist to begin with, and has been coined to satiate those who can't be fine with the purposelessness of the world & its creations). since we are soaked in causality, we require a 'reason' for our bondage, and hence births & deaths are concocted so that one is pacified at least for now! "whys" in mathematics are wonderful; for the one who seeks the truth or freedom, there are NO "why"s :-)
'why am i bound', 'why don't i have a guru', 'why am i stuck in this world', 'why did 'god' create this universe' etc. etc. are all, besides being childish, irrelevant & nonsensical for a seeker. :-)))
bhagavAn is beautiful because self-enquiry can be attempted by one and all, and does not require any so-called guru-bhaktI or faith to try. for all you know, vichAra may work excellently for an honest atheist and may be ineffectual for a committed believer!!! :-)
am happy to modestly claim that there is no such thing as god (man created god). if any of you claims it to be incorrect, the onus is on you to prove, not with some smart crap but simply & straightly, god's existence! there is only one person (thAkur or rAmakrishna), and for reasons i truly don't know, before whose mention of 'god' am i helplessly & hopelessly silent! with bhagavAn, thankfully for me, even that limitation is gone, and i feel naturally comfortable :-)
salutations to all:
subramanian:
pardon me for asking - have you completely surrendered? have you submitted the whole of your ego at your guru's feet? are you in an 'egoless' state? if your answer is 'no' to the above, then don't you think you are simply quoting somebody without knowing what these things are? then why say as if that were to be the inevitable truth? :-)
Dear S,
Sri Nochur Venkataraman and Sri, V Ganesan say that each individual must pass through this "Dvandvam" or that "Contradictions" for one to cross the "Samsara" or the ocean of fire or we may call it the fire of knowledge.
How much we may give ourselves to burn depends of the, can we say "Degree" of Surrender.
I am in such a fire of contradictions (grinding in the poetry of Kabir) as well. Bhagavan has said somewhere that after a certain point there is no more effort possible on our part, that is the unknown realm. the border where there is ego and ego-lessness.
salutations to all:
(a poem i have always liked... happened to read it again, so posting it here...)
Once in Persia reigned a King,
Who upon his signet ring
Graved a maxim true and wise,
Which, if held before his eyes,
Gave him counsel at a glance,
Fit for every change and chance.
Solemn words, and these are they;
"Even this shall pass away."
Trains of camels through the sand
Brought him gems from Samarcand;
Fleets of galleys through the seas
Brought him pearls to match with these;
But he counted not his gain,
Treasures of mine or main;
"What is wealth?" the king would say;
"Even this shall pass away."
Mid the revels of his court,
At the zenith of his sport,
When the palms of all his guests,
Burned with clapping at his jests,
He, amid his figs and wine;
Cried, 'O loving friends of mine;
Pleasures come, but not to stay;
"Even this shall pass away"
Lady, fairest ever seen,
Was the bride he crowned his queen.
Pillowed on his marriage bed,
Softly to his soul he said:
Though no bridegroom ever passed;
Fairer bosom to his breast,
Mortal flesh must come to clay-
"Even this shall pass away"
Fighting on a furious field,
Once a javelin pierced his shield;
Soldiers, with a loud lament,
Bore him bleeding to his tent.
Groaning from his tortured side,
"Pain is hard to bear," he cried;
"But with patience, day by day,
Even this shall pass away.
Towering in the public square,
Twenty cubits in the air,
Rose his statue carved in stone.
Then the king, disguised, unknown,
Stood before his sculptured name,
Musing meekly: "What is fame?"
Fame is but a slow decay;
Even this shall pass away.
Struck with palsy, sore and old,
Waiting at the Gates of Gold,
Said he with his dying breath,
"Life is done, but what is death?"
Then, in answer to the king,
Fell a sun beam on his ring,
"Even this shall pass away."
-Theodore Tilton
I found a part in Silence of the Heart, where Robert Adams comments on No Mind, I am the Self. That was kind of cool. Robert Adams was also talking about how serving the Guru is the highest practice, he said that he had asked Ramana, and Ramana agreed with him 100% but added, (paraphrasing) "only for ripe devotees'. (note: I wasn't sure if that was because for less mature devotees, they won't want to do that, or because less mature devotees aren't ready for that kind of grace, and aren't pure enough of ego to really serve a Guru.) I thought that was kind of interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv0THY4o6mI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IboB5-L0xA
Friends,
Here is a wonderful excerpt from the Reminiscences of Swami Vivekananda:
[In Calcutta, in 1897, Swami Vivekananda was discussing Vedantic theories of
creation with his disciple]. While all this talk was going on the great
dramatist, Girish Chandra Ghosh, appeared on the scene. Swami Vivekananda
gave him a courteous greeting and continued his lesson to his disciple....
Now, turning to Girish Babu, Swami Vivekananda said, "What do you say, G.C.?
Well, you do not care to study all this; you pass your days with your
adoration of this and that god, eh?"
Girish Babu: What shall I study, brother? I have neither time nor
understanding to pry into all that. But this time, with Sri Ramakrishna's
grace, I shall pass by with greetings to your Vedas and Vedanta, and take
one leap into the far beyond! He puts you through all these studies because
he wants to get many things done by you. But we have no need of them. Saying
this, Girish Babu again and again touched the Rig Veda volumes to his head,
uttering, "All victory to Ramakrishna in the form of the Veda!"
Swami Vivekananda was now in a sort of deep reverie. Girish Babu suddenly
called out to him and said, "Well, hear me, please. You have made a good
deal of study into the Vedas and Vedanta - but say, did you find anywhere in
them the way out for us from all these profound miseries of the country, all
these wailings of grief, all this starvation, all these crimes of adultery,
and many horrible sins?"
Saying this, he painted over and over again horrid pictures of society.
Swami Vivekananda remained perfectly quiet and speechless, while at the
thought of the sorrows and miseries of his fellow men, tears began to flow
from his eyes, and seemingly to hide his feelings from us he rose and left
the room.
Meanwhile, addressing the disciple, Girish Babu said, "Did you see that,
Bangal? What a great, loving heart! I don't honor your Swami Vivekananda
simply for being a pandit versed in the Vedas; I honor him for that great
heart of his which just made him retire weeping at the sorrows of his fellow
beings."
The disciple and Girish Babu then went on conversing with each other, the
latter proving that knowledge and love were ultimately the same.
In the meantime, Swami Vivekananda returned and asked the disciple, "Well,
what was all this talk going on between you?" The disciple said, "Sir, we
are talking about the Vedas; and the wonder of it is that our Girish Babu
has not studied these books but has grasped their ultimate truths with clean
precision."
Swami Vivekananda: All truths reveal themselves to him who has got real
devotion to the guru; he has hardly any need of studies. But such faith and
devotion are very rare in this world. He who possesses these in the measure
of our friend here need not study the Shastras. But he who rushes forward to
imitate him will only bring about his own ruin. Always follow his advice,
but never attempt to imitate his ways.....
-----------------------------------
Happened to find this posted by one 'soorya' in another site that also had this signature line from the Taitriya upanishad:
SWADHYAYA PRAVACHANABHYAM NA PRAMADITAVYAM
{Be not negligent about the study and exposition of scriptures. - Taittriya Upanishad}
The Taitriya upanishad is truly a wonderful one-to chant as well as to contemplate.If time permits,I will share some excerpts.
Namaskar.
Hi S;
Here is your shortest and most straightforward proof of God:
The very fact that there is a word 'God' in vocabulary is enough proof that God exists.How can there be a word 'God' without it's corresponding existence?But sometimes we have expressions for non-existing things;for eg:Hair's horn.But that is not a word but a combination of words i.e Hare and horn both of which exist.
[Translated from a speech by Sathya Sai Baba]
-z
It is through the process of investigation that the truth is uncovered and revealed by the critical act of discovering and diving within rather than by some mythical, external "truth-holder".
Just waiting for the truth to be revealed is always a foolish errand.
Most of us are not ripe enough to 'just be' so vichara is needed.
Friends,
Came across this interesting poser!
"Once a Guru told a joke in a satsang.people laughed hysterically.He
repeated the joke, less number of people laughed.He again repeated the same
joke,this time number of people and quality of laughter reduced
further.He repeated the joke a couple of times until the laughter
finally stopped.The man said 'when you cannot laugh over the same joke (repeated),why do you cry over same problem again and again?
That's interesting, because I think in Chapter 5 Ribhu Gita, maya, the appearance of the world, is compared to the existence of the Horns of a Hare. (not hair). I read this in the Ramamoorthy/Master Nome Translation.
s,
"am happy to modestly claim that there is no such thing as god (man created god)."
Before we proceed further,I am making the Following assumptions:
1.That you are happy not on account of the fact that god does not exist i.e You are happy(God existing or otherwise)
2.You claim(modestly) that God is only an 'imagination' of man.
Now you are asking for 'Proof'.I wish to have more clarity into what you mean by 'proof'.
Let us say that we sit together and I show you 'God'-say Divine Mother,Lord Siva or Lord Vishnu(assume for a momment that I can!).Is this what you mean by 'proof'?
The Reason why I am asking this question is that there may still be a doubt that what you see is 'God'.
So that will put the onus on me(Like you have already said)to dispel that doubt.So before we go further,we need to examine the nature of this 'Doubt'-If one doubts the physical presence,then this can be dispelled by 'God' showing up before one's eyes.
The next logical doubt that one may have is-'Okay,God exists;So what?What is his relevance for me?'
Can he get me the things that I want?Let us say that Ravi being a Great Sadhaka is able to persuade God (like Sunadaramurthy nayanar to do his bidding)and command him-'Now just go and deliver whatever my Friend s.wants.I do not want to hear any complaints from him that you are useless and as good as nonexistent'.God comes to you and asks -'sir,what do you want?'
Now here is my problem s.You are a very good friend of mine and I really want to help you.Only I do not know what you really want.Yes,I know that you are after 'Freedom'.Since you are after Freedom,I am pretty sure you know what it is.So perhaps you may not ask God for this.In which case you may not need the services of 'God'.
This may mean that he is as good as nonexistent as far as you are concerned.
So for me to prove the existence of 'God',you have to help me 's'-as to where we draw the line-'yes,it is enough if you just show me some 'figure' may be that of a buffalo or an elephant or whatever.
Or like Sathya sai baba does-Bring some Vibhuti or Kumkum and that will do.
Or is it something else.Please clarify what you mean by proof :)))(Learnt this from you).
Namaskar.
# Seek Govinda(god)! Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Oh ignoramus, at the time of death the rules of grammer, which you are trying to cram and master, will not be able to rescue you at all.
# The world which is full of attachments, aversions, etc., is like a dream. It appears to be real, as long as it continues but appears to be unreal when one is awake (i.e., when true wisdom dawns).
# Day and night, dawn and dusk, winter and spring, all these are flitting across the stage of the world. While time thus is frolicking and befooling us, our life span is also running out; yet we do not , even a little, give up the clinging to our desires, nor do we let the desires loosen their grip on us.
# Free yourself from lust, anger, greed and delusion. Contemplate on 'who you are'. Enquire within yourself, who am I ? The fools who fail to apprehend the Self are caught in hell-fire even here and now itself and suffer torture.
# Among the contributory factors of liberation, devotion stands supreme, and it is the search for one's own true nature that is meant by devotion.
# Reality can be experienced only with the eye of understanding, not just by a scholar. What the moon is like must be seen with one's own eyes. How can others do it for you?
# Only those who have achieved samadhi and who have withdrawn the external senses, the mind and their sense of doership into their true nature as consciousness are free from being trapped in the snare of samsara, not those who just repeat the statements of others.
# Direct the mind resolutely towards God, restraining the senses in their various seats, and looking on the state of the body as a matter of indifference. Realise your oneness with God, remaining continually intent on identifying with its nature, and joyfully drink the bliss of God within, for what use is there in other, empty things?
A Jnani has No Separate Will of His Own
In the evening Sri Bhagavan recalled a marvelous occurrence. He said, "Some time ago, a paralytic was brought in a conveyance and brought into the Hall in the arms of some persons and placed before me. I was looking at him as usual. After about half an hour, the man with some effort got up by himself, prostrated, and rising came forward and handed to me a notebook. I found it to be his horoscope wherein it was stated that he would have darshan of a Mahatma by whose Grace he would be cured miraculously. The man after expressing his fervent gratitude walked by himself to his conveyance outside the Hall. All people present were struck with wonder which I also shared because I had not consciously done anything for him." Now Sri Bhagavan again repeated that a Jnani could not have any sankalpa (will) of his own.
Subbaramayya, My Reminiscences of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi
salutations to all:
Anonymous (Z.) said:
The very fact that there is a word 'God' in vocabulary is enough proof that God exists.How can there be a word 'God' without it's corresponding existence?
hahahaha... 'I' is in the vocabulary, but bhagavAn says the 'I' is fictitious; 'World' is in the lexicon, but that is supposed to be unreal; 'Absence' is a genuine word in the dictionary but there can no presence of absence, etc etc. (the list can go on), isn't it? we coin words for the purposes of language and that does mean something but that has got nothing to do with the proof/disproof of anything :-)))
salutations to all:
ravi said: "...Can he get me the things that I want?Let us say that Ravi being a Great Sadhaka is able to persuade God (like Sunadaramurthy nayanar to do his bidding)and command him-'Now just go and deliver whatever my Friend s.wants.I do not want to hear any complaints from him that you are useless and as good as nonexistent'.God comes to you and asks -'sir,what do you want?'..."
hahahahahaha... ravi sir: please do that if you can, then i will tell what i would do; let god come first, then we shall see :-)))
as i said, this is all smart talk, and if the 'believer' could give 10 reasons for god's existence, the 'non-believer' could offer a 100 countering them, that's trivial. i confess am no svAmijI (vivekAnanda) but could you answer anyone at all in the same utterly simple, yet irrefutable, way thAkur answered, can you? until then, 'god', if any, is as imaginary to you as it is to me! for all those believers out there, it's just some sentimental nonsense or borrowed knowledge with little or no content. :-)))
s,
I can only answer in my way;so please do not expect me to answer like Thakur!
How are you sure you have not experienced God?that you have not seen god,that you have not felt god?Just what is missing?
Shall I say that there is no one who has not experienced God,only they do not know it!One may say that it is not satisfying!
What do you mean by 'sentimental'?:)))
Namaskar.
Dear S, your rebutting everything sounds more like a UGK, even that has to drop! to drop the dropping - can we say?
Rebutting the Rebut itself
Dear friend,
You say you learnt Mathematics from
a teacher. That teacher is your
guru. For a child to say Amma, the
Mother teaches him. Mother is Guru.
I never said that I am in egoless state. We are all having egos, some big, small small. The aim to reach
the egoless state for all of us.
There is no need to see the dictionary for the existence of God. God is within all of us.
Even for agnostic or an atheist
there is God within. But they do not recognize it. That is all.
One Siddhar says: I am sleeping.
I am inhaling and exhaling. If the exhaled air does not come back into my system, what can I do? Where is I am? It is some power which makes you inhale and exhale for some years of life, till you breath your lost. He is outside, if you choose to believe. Or within, if you choose not to believe. God has no responsibility to prove his existence. It is your responsibility to understand and then reach him.
Agnostics are living in a desperate situation. Always they need to fight the obvious. It is amusing that the same mouth which is a gift of God as everything else says: I don't know God. A man says: 'I have a body, there is the sun and the universe. Why not? That goes without saying.'
salutations to all:
ravi/subramanian/i:
'i' - thanks for the UGK comparison (have never read any of his works!). the only thing rebutted is 'god', nothing else. without a devil's advocate, there isn't much fun, isn't it? btw, words like 'drop the dropping' is just a smart bunch of words; none of us here know what such a thing could even remotely mean! sorry, if that sounded vain :-)))
ravi - "...Shall I say that there is no one who has not experienced God,only they do not know it!One may say that it is not satisfying!...".
again, these are seemingly-wise sounding words, nothing more... realisation has to be a tangible experience (like the way it happened to bhagavAn or thAkur); now i may be wrong and all of you there may accuse me of pinning it down to an event or a set of events, but neither is imagining stuff a sign of progress, nor is good behaviour, social decency, fine erudition, or even a compassionate heart etc... i wouldn't mind if no such concrete 'incident' happens to me till i drop dead but i do hold that unless such an event happens, god is just a figment of your fertile imagination to which one cringes unnecessarily and glorifies it to oneself in the garb of surrender :-)
subramanian - There is no need to see the dictionary for the existence of God. God is within all of us. Even for agnostic or an atheist there is God within. But they do not recognize it. That is all.
sir, all am asking is - how do you say this with so much conviction? how do you know god is within all of us but just that we don't recognise it? one has to be a bhagavAn to say things with that kind of a stamp of authority, so i add humbly...
salutations to all:
please don't take any of the above or the earlier comments to be some kind of an argument(s). am no teacher, nor i wish to be one, but am not ok with putting the cart before the horse. people tend to, perhaps unknowingly, write with such convictions about self, god, truth etc., as if one has seen it all first-hand! shedding an occasional intense tear or a sudden spell of good enquiry etc., are simply charged emotions and ought not to be mistaken for 'tasting'. why talk of the blissful taste of the mango when one has only heard or read about it and never tasted, or even seen one? for me, besides being dishonest, that appears to be just a refined way of seeking an applause, a crime for which i may have been guilty too despite my unwillingness to slip into the chasm :-)
s,
"s
"but neither is imagining stuff a sign of progress, nor is good behaviour, social decency, fine erudition, or even a compassionate heart etc... "
Agreed.
"shedding an occasional intense tear or a sudden spell of good enquiry etc., are simply charged emotions and ought not to be mistaken for 'tasting'. why talk of the blissful taste of the mango when one has only heard or read about it and never tasted, or even seen one?"
Have you not come across something that is unpremeditated?
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
clemens: had a good laugh on reading your comment :-)))
"...the same mouth which is a gift of God as everything else says: I don't know God. A man says: 'I have a body, there is the sun and the universe. Why not? That goes without saying.'..."
why can't the mouth be simply be an accident of evolution? why should that credit be given to a 'god' who hasn't come and told anyone of his meritorious act!
clemens - have you gone above the 'i am the body' idea to see its falsehood with clarity? if anything, it's the sun, the moon, the body & the brain that are, for now, most self-evident!, isn't it? is 'god' that self-evident to you? is the 'self' the only reality to you? if your answers are 'yes', then there is no difference between you and bhagavAn :-) quoting bhagavAn doesn't make us a bhagavAn, does it? it's much simpler to admit - 'bhagavAn, who was so wonderfully free, says the self alone is real but i don't understand one bit of it! but he also said that this thing can be known by one & all through vichAra, so let me try and see if it is so' - at least the 'agnostic' is honest :-)))
Dear S.,
"the self alone is real" means that all our ideas of "god", "evolution", "world" and everything else are nothing else than mental images, non-realities. After dismissing all this mental images there is something left. There is no chance to understand this by arguing about it.
Follow insistently your ideas to their origin. The origin is 'not knowing', the essence of reality. It is a black hole. Every idea is pure dogma, sheer claim. No idea can have a real root other then the restless mind projecting them by dividing reality in separated parts.
This black hole is itself nothing else then a simple projecting of the mind. To realize God means to transform the black hole into the knowledge of reality.
Friends,
What s means is something like this.An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Worldly people talk about God only
from hearsay. Children, hearing their old aunts quarrelling among themselves, learn to say,
'There is my God', 'I swear by God.'
"But that doesn't matter. I don't blame such people. Can all comprehend the Indivisible
Satchidananda? Only twelve rishis could recognize Ramachandra. All cannot recognize an
Incarnation of God. Some take him for an ordinary man, some for a holy person, and only a
few recognize him as an Incarnation.
"One offers a price for an article according to one's capital. A rich man said to his servant:
'Take this diamond to the market and let me know how different people price it. Take it,
first of all, to the egg-plant seller.' The servant took the diamond to the egg-plant seller. He
examined it, turning it over in the palm of his hand, and said, 'Brother, I can give nine seers
of egg-plants for it.' 'Friend,' said the servant, 'a little more-say, ten seers.' The egg-plant
seller replied: 'No, I have already quoted above the market price. You may give it to me if
that price suits you.' The servant laughed. He went back to his master and said: 'Sir, he
would give me only nine seers of egg-plants and not one more. He said he had offered more
than the market price.' The master smiled and said: 'Now take it to the cloth-dealer. The
other man deals only in egg-plants. What does he know about a diamond? The cloth-dealer
has a little more capital. Let us see how much he offers for it.' The servant went to the
cloth-dealer and said: 'Will you buy this? How much will you pay for it?' The merchant
said: 'Yes, it is a good thing. I can make a nice ornament out of it. I will give you nine
hundred rupees for it.' 'Brother,' said the servant, 'offer a little more and I will sell it to you.
Give me at least a thousand rupees.' The cloth-dealer said: 'Friend, don't press me for more.
I have offered more than the market price. I cannot give a rupee more. Suit yourself.'
Laughing the servant returned to his master and said: 'He won't give a rupee more than nine
hundred. He too said he had quoted above the market price.' The master said with a laugh:
'Now take it to a jeweller. Let us see what he has to say.' The servant went to a jeweller.
The jeweller glanced at the diamond and said at once, 'I will give you one hundred
thousand rupees for it.'
"They talk of practising religion in the world. Suppose a man is shut up in a room. All the
doors and windows are closed. Only a little light comes through a hole in the ceiling. Can
he see the sun with that roof over his head? And what will he do with only one ray of light?
'Woman and gold' is the roof. Can he see the sun unless he removes the roof? Worldly
people are shut up in a room, as it were."
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Friends,
Here is the most practical advice from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"One should not reason too much; it is enough if one loves the Lotus Feet of the Mother.
Too much reasoning throws the mind into confusion. You get clear water if you drink from
the surface of a pool. Put your hand deeper and stir the water, and it becomes muddy.
Therefore pray to God for devotion."
-----------------------------------
This is not to detract from what s has raised.Once a while it is useful to do such reality checks.
What is most important is to develop a Taste for spiritual Living.
I remember reading the response of a devotee when asked'Do you know God?';he said:'God knows me'.
I recall the incident when the attendants of Sri Bhagavan tried to dissuade an old Lady with dim eyesight from approaching him saying 'Grandma,You cannot see him,so why are you trampling upon so many things to get near him'.The Grandma quietened them by saying 'Well,He can see me!'.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
clemens/ravi:
clemens - "...After dismissing all this mental images there is something left...The origin is 'not knowing', the essence of reality. It is a black hole..." - let me belabour the point one last time :-): have you come to the 'black hole' stage? have you dismissed all where you see 'something' is left? have you seen the 'origin' to be not knowing? - not because X or Y says so (that X could be bhagavAn but still irrelevant!).
ravi - oh no!!! you have invoked the brahmAstra of thAkur, and i can't say anything more now (good for me) :-)))
have you come to the 'black hole' stage?
Dear S.,
does my answer is of any use for you? If I say 'no' you will continue to ask questions which are already answered. If I say 'yes' you will continue to ask questions which are already answered. So the result is the same in both cases.
Why don't you trust Ramana and simply contemplate on what he has said? It's the easiest way. Discussions are for nothing. You may unmask easily millions of false teachers - what is the use of it? Afterwards you still need to find your own truth.
S,
Your argument to Sai Baba's explaination is unacceptable. Ultimately, ofcourse everything becomes a concept in mind. Dont talk in terms of 'Ultimately' because no discussion is possible in the state of 'Ultimately'.So does God exist Ultimately is a foolish question.The context of any question is only right upto i.e just before Self-Realization. So 'I' and the world do exist.
But I understand your position about God and it is perfectly acceptable to me like any other's position even that of Ramakrishna.In my opinion as individuals evolve each is at a specific point of evolution and his opinion is based on his experiences upto that point.So all expressions of experiences of God should be tolerable. One will also find that as one progresses the definition of God also changes for him. For every stage of life a definition, existence and role of God prevails and is only valid for that specific stage.Now you may ask is there a definition and role of God that spans across all the stages. This is a very difficult question for me.The one thing common across all the stages of evolution is a personal 'I'.As long as there is 'I' there will be a 'Para'.As long as there is a wave there must be an ocean.
Dynamic or Wallflower??
-----------------------
By asking does God exist I think the real question is Does God have any Iccha Sakthi?Whether that ocean can dynamically change the direction of the wave upon request is what matters to us.Can God help us dynamically change our fate?This too seems to depend on the person and the stage he is in.For eg:Vivekananda mercilessly rejected repeatedly some of Ramakrishna's views on God.But after a few years he himself claimed that he could speak with Mother Kali just like to any other normal person.In the third stage his letters indicated there was only immense peace and silence and nothing mattered i.e the question of God does not arise at this stage but if you ask they might say everything is God, Ananda.There is only Ananda; nothing else.So we can see very clearly that Vivekananda himself passed through three clearly different stages of belief in God in his short span of life.
We know even the very greats like Mira Bai,Kabir,Papaji have changed their definition of God in the end.
So if anybody asks me Does God exist I will answer that depends on you.Will God help me?That depends on you?Will that Guru shower me grace?That depends on you.Independent of you nothing exists.You are the definition and hence the qualification.Does God exist independent of me?That depends on your others(i.e who you define as others).If for the others God exists then God exists independent of ‘you’ and if your others are atheists then God does not exist independent of you.If some of your others are believers and others not then you are agnostic.If others do not matter to you then that becomes an invalid question.
-Z
S,
Your argument to Sai Baba's explaination is unacceptable. Ultimately, ofcourse everything becomes a concept in mind. Dont talk in terms of 'Ultimately' because no discussion is possible in the state of 'Ultimately'.So does God exist Ultimately is a foolish question.The context of any question is only right upto i.e just before Self-Realization. So 'I' and the world do exist.
But I understand your position about God and it is perfectly acceptable to me like any other's position even that of Ramakrishna.In my opinion as individuals evolve each is at a specific point of evolution and his opinion is based on his experiences upto that point.So all expressions of experiences of God should be tolerable. One will also find that as one progresses the definition of God also changes for him. For every stage of life a definition, existence and role of God prevails and is only valid for that specific stage.Now you may ask is there a definition and role of God that spans across all the stages. This is a very difficult question for me.The one thing common across all the stages of evolution is a personal 'I'.As long as there is 'I' there will be a 'Para'.As long as there is a wave there must be an ocean.
Dynamic or Wallflower??
-----------------------
By asking does God exist I think the real question is Does God have any Iccha Sakthi?Whether that ocean can dynamically change the direction of the wave upon request is what matters to us.Can God help us dynamically change our fate?This too seems to depend on the person and the stage he is in.For eg:Vivekananda mercilessly rejected repeatedly some of Ramakrishna's views on God.But after a few years he himself claimed that he could speak with Mother Kali just like to any other normal person.In the third stage his letters indicated there was only immense peace and silence and nothing mattered i.e the question of God does not arise at this stage but if you ask they might say everything is God, Ananda.There is only Ananda; nothing else.So we can see very clearly that Vivekananda himself passed through three clearly different stages of belief in God in his short span of life.
We know even the very greats like Mira Bai,Kabir,Papaji have changed their definition of God in the end.
So if anybody asks me Does God exist I will answer that depends on you.Will God help me?That depends on you?Will that Guru shower me grace?That depends on you.Independent of you nothing exists.You are the definition and hence the qualification.Does God exist independent of me?That depends on your others(i.e who you define as others).If for the others God exists then God exists independent of ‘you’ and if your others are atheists then God does not exist independent of you.If some of your others are believers and others not then you are agnostic.If others do not matter to you then that becomes an invalid question.
-Z
S,
Your argument to Sai Baba's explaination is unacceptable. Ultimately, ofcourse everything becomes a concept in mind. Dont talk in terms of 'Ultimately' because no discussion is possible in the state of 'Ultimately'.So does God exist Ultimately is a foolish question.The context of any question is only right upto i.e just before Self-Realization. So 'I' and the world do exist.
But I understand your position about God and it is perfectly acceptable to me like any other's position even that of Ramakrishna.In my opinion as individuals evolve each is at a specific point of evolution and his opinion is based on his experiences upto that point.So all expressions of experiences of God should be tolerable. One will also find that as one progresses the definition of God also changes for him. For every stage of life a definition, existence and role of God prevails and is only valid for that specific stage.Now you may ask is there a definition and role of God that spans across all the stages. This is a very difficult question for me.The one thing common across all the stages of evolution is a personal 'I'.As long as there is 'I' there will be a 'Para'.As long as there is a wave there must be an ocean.
Dynamic or Wallflower??
-----------------------
By asking does God exist I think the real question is Does God have any Iccha Sakthi?Whether that ocean can dynamically change the direction of the wave upon request is what matters to us.Can God help us dynamically change our fate?This too seems to depend on the person and the stage he is in.For eg:Vivekananda mercilessly rejected repeatedly some of Ramakrishna's views on God.But after a few years he himself claimed that he could speak with Mother Kali just like to any other normal person.In the third stage his letters indicated there was only immense peace and silence and nothing mattered i.e the question of God does not arise at this stage but if you ask they might say everything is God, Ananda.There is only Ananda; nothing else.So we can see very clearly that Vivekananda himself passed through three clearly different stages of belief in God in his short span of life.
We know even the very greats like Mira Bai,Kabir,Papaji have changed their definition of God in the end.
So if anybody asks me Does God exist I will answer that depends on you.Will God help me?That depends on you?Will that Guru shower me grace?That depends on you.Independent of you nothing exists.You are the definition and hence the qualification.Does God exist independent of me?That depends on your others(i.e who you define as others).If for the others God exists then God exists independent of ‘you’ and if your others are atheists then God does not exist independent of you.If some of your others are believers and others not then you are agnostic.If others do not matter to you then that becomes an invalid question.
-Z
Dear S.,
Think of these five elements, first.
Earth, I mean clay or sand if dropped from a shovel, would remain there only. No movement. But if you drop a bucket of water, it spreads on all directions. If you light a lamp, the flame also moves upwards, not only on sides like water. If air is blown it throws away the sand, dries the water, puts out the light,spreads in all eight directions including upward and downward. But this air also cannot reach the Space. Thus the Space is greater than all the rest. The Space contains all these elements, but itself is all pervasive. No one has found out the outer rim of space, inspite of going to moon, mars and jupiter,
and saturn either with men or instruments. But this all powerful space, is also absent in your deep sleep. It rests in your Heart.
This shows that there is some Power which is governing all these, and which is also within you. Take the suns, stars, galaxies, coal sacks of galaxies.
Their regularity of movement and rotation has been found out only to a limited extent by man. He does not know the entire scheme of things. If the sun comes closer to an extent of 1/10 of its present distance from the earth, the earth will burn up! This is about Sun. Now take Ardra star, [Ardra Darsan is celebrated in
South India tomorrow]. It is golden red star, in the constellation of Gemini. When the sun's rays take 8 minutes to reach the sun, Ardra's light takes 100 years to reach the earth. Its light of 1010 A.D has reached now. It has all been measured. But who created all these? You may say Big Bang. Who created
the Big Bang? Either your mind or the Creator within, if you turn the mind inward. When I am in deep sleep, there is no Ardra or
Big Bang. But I am. This I amness is god within, the Self, or
Brahman, Bhagavan for bhaktas, Atma for Jnanis.
In my previous post, It should read
that the light from Ardra star takes
1000 years to reach the earth.
Reminiscences of the Swami Vivekananda - Manmatha Nath Ganguli (1)
http://www.vivekananda.net/ReminiscenesOnSwami/ManmathaNathGanguli.html
I stayed at the Math that day and also the night. Next morning I went to Swamiji to offer my obeisance. He was standing near the door of his room while I bowed down before him. He said, "Go to the Ganga and have a dip. Then come soon to me." His face was beaming with kind benediction, and I knew at once that he was in a mood to shower his grace. My heart beat fast as I understood this to be his permission to be initiated. I was as happy as a teen-aged boy and literally ran to have a dip, so impatient was I. Unless Swamiji was filled with gurubhava (attitude of the teacher) which they called the mood of Shri Ramakrishna himself, he would not initiate any one. When I returned I found him lying on his back on a sofa. He let fall his right hand loosely and said, "Hold my hand." I sat down on the floor and held him at the wrist. His body had emaciated, yet his wrist was broad and in spite of my grip there remained a gap of about half a finger. Swamiji closed his eyes and lay motionless. Time passed and I held him as a young child. It seemed to me that his personality engulfed me. but I tried to retain my consciousness. For a fraction of a second it seemed to have vanished completely. Then he sat up.
Swamiji got down from the sofa and stood in the room. He pointed to a carpet and asked me to sit on it. At a short distance there was another carpet and Swamiji took his seat on it. When I followed him, he said, "In dream you have seen the Mother as Kumari. But henceforth you should meditate on Her as of the Shodashi form — like." As he said this I could vividly visualize the image and at the moment I did not wonder at this at all. About the vision I had never spoken to any soul. yet he knew it, and I did not marvel for I had taken it for granted that he knew everything. In my dream, many years before, I had seen seven maids. The tallest was a maid of eleven and the smallest and youngest only five. The difference of age and height decreased in a graded manner and all were very beautiful divine persons. Each of them had a gold crown and they were dressed in very fine garments and ornaments. But they had all the brightness of the goddesses. They emerged one by one from one side and moved forward on before me to vanish at a small distance. The vision was so vivid that the images left a permanent impression in my memory.
continued....
Reminiscences of the Swami Vivekananda - Manmatha Nath Ganguli (2)
http://www.vivekananda.net/ReminiscenesOnSwami/ManmathaNathGanguli.html
Swamiji went on, "After some time you saw Mahadeva in your vision. He had the trident in His hand and He gave you this mantra.... From that time on you performed that japa." It was many years after the first one that I had this dream. He said. "But from now onwards your mantra is this." ... He repeated the bija-mantra of the Mother thrice, aloud. And I saw before me a full size divine figure of the classical image with the tongue lolling out. I asked him, "Shall I have to meditate on Her like that?" He said. "If you wish, you can think of Her with the tongue in. "And he smiled.
After this he gave me certain hints about initiation and the process of sadhana that I was to practise. He gave me the mantra for the worship of the guru and showed me the centres for nyasa. He said, "First of all perform the menial obeisance, then visualize your guru as vividly as you can. For this, sahasrara (thousand-petalled lotus in the brain) is the best place. After this the mantra of the chosen deity should be slowly repeated and Her image should be meditated in the heart.
"In offering the mental worship, first of all meditate on the feet, then slowly go upwards till you come to the face, and then meditate on the face. When meditation will be deep, there will he no hands or feet. As long as you see the form, the nirvikalpa plane cannot be reached. But do not hurry. You must go slowly and across the stages one by one. Otherwise it may take a much longer time."
After my initiation was thus over, he said, "Sit here, beside me, and meditate. Practise meditation every day without fail, however busy you may be. It must be done even for a short time, say for a few minutes. If you do not find time otherwise you may do it in the bathroom. Even that will do."
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