Two times in the last twelve months the 'Open Thread' feature of this blog has started to malfunction when the comments approached a thousand. This time I am pre-empting a possible failure by starting a new one. Please use this new one in future, rather than the one that began in March.
Sri Ramana Maharshi
Welcome
I propose to use this blog primarily to air my occasional musings on any matters relating to the life and teachings of Ramana Maharshi. There will also be occasional contributions about Arunachala, the sacred mountain where Sri Ramana spent all of his adult life.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
590 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 590 of 590Thankyou, I enjoyed the story of The dog with the curly tail. I shall forward it on to friends.
Z,
Your explanation is already understood!You are calling for vivekanandas,vidyasagars,Gandhis!Why not call for more Zs?Here lies the fallacy-we wait for some other 'Extraordinary person' to solve the mess that we have created.Behind a Vivekananda was a Sri Ramakrishna.All the activities that happen in this world are but the breath of a few individuals only.It is those few that make History.
If you look at the 'many' there will always be confusion only.The health of the 'Society' is known only by the 'few ripe' ones that it is able to manifest.This is the yardstick for measuring the health of the society-This is obviously not on the surface and cannot be measured by purely social means.
If we have to go by your yardstick,may be a country like Sweden would qualify as the ideal one.
You talk of Grannies,widow remarriage,etc-you miss something fundamental-The Hindu society views marriage as a 'passage' and not an 'end' in itself.It is not based on an individual viewed as a 'Body' but as a 'soul'.Even within marriage one cannot behave as if the wife or a Husband is a 'Body'.There is so much of refinement to this wonderful 'idea'-that unless this is understood ,it will be futile to discuss further.It is to understand this,that one is put through the Brahmanacharya period.He needs to be a Brahmachari and Qualify himself to be a Householder.
In present day setup all this is forgotten and all that matters is that the Boy likes the Girl and The Girl likes the Boy and that is all there to it!This is liberation from the Shackles!What a Farce!This is what is called a 'Sudra'-A Sudra is one who lives totally in his senses.If one of them dies,no problem-He or she can choose another 'Body'!This is civilization and this is 'Human Rights'!
Gandhi also never understood much of Indian Values-having been educated abroad!Much of his views are on the purely 'social' plane that misses out the 'spiritual'.This is not to discount his contribution which is quite considerable.However his insistence that in order to prove equality,the Chandala should be allowed entry into the temple is simply Childish!We need to ask the Chandala whether he wanted to enter the temple!May be he will be more happy to get a Bag of rice!
We need to ask the Chandala whether he prefers to take a bath!
This is another Stupid idea that 'All are Equal'!If all are Equal ,why there should be so much disparity in this world?To bring about 'Equality' is not to bring about 'uniformity'-It is enough to let everyone realize their Full potential.This potential is in the Spirit and has nothing to do with any change on the 'outside'.This has to begin with 'oneself'.This is what is Sri Bhagavan's fundamental premise-YOU ARE THE WORLD.I have already quoted what Swami Vivekananda had said regarding this.
-----------------------------------
Having said all the above-I do agree with you that there is much to be done.Where I differ from you is your bizarre statement that it is only after the British occupation that we are trying to find our feet!If this is the sort of Brainwash that modern education has done,I will suggest that you should Read Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo over again-I know you have read Vivekananda,but I am not at all sure that you have understood him.
Namaskar.
Since it does not appear to be possible to start sub-threads from a particular comment (but if anyone knows how to do it in blogger, please let me know) can I appeal to posters to give themselves some identity other than 'anonymous'. You can maintain your privacy with a pseudonym, and it makes discussions easier to follow. Right now parts of the Open Thread resemble that Monty Python sketch where everyone is called Bruce.
Ravi, I usually enjoy your contributions but this addition; "However his insistence that in order to prove equality,the Chandala should be allowed entry into the temple is simply Childish! We need to ask the Chandala whether he wanted to enter the temple!May be he will be more happy to get a Bag of rice!
We need to ask the Chandala whether he prefers to take a bath"
These comments appear heartless and I must remind you that Ramana would wait on the hill near the well where poor people were not allowed to use the well water and he would splash them with cool water and give them a drink as he understood the extent of their suffering.
Ravi you may be a Brahmin and a sensitive soul at that, but you are unable to shake off your conditioning!
hj
Broken Yogi/Friends,
Z has raised a Fundamental point-I have covered this in my earlier posts to you-that there is a collective aspect to Living.Only a few aim consciously for spiritual Living and a vast majority yet require a certain orientation towards Spiritual Living-for this is what is conducive to Happiness.This is what is covered by the Dharma aspect in Sanathana Dharma.Sri Bhagavan's Teaching in the form of 'self Enquiry' certainly does not address the issues related to collective Living.
No single teacher can cover this aspect in its entirety and this is why the Veda is considered as the ultimate Guiding Light by all the Teachers.Every spiritual teacher comes to inject a fresh lease of Life amd throw Light on these Eternal teachings,so that the masses can reorient themselves anew.
Where z is wrong is when he said that sri Bhagavan missed an opportunity,despite being on a Huge pedestal!This is a very superficial view.This is certainly not sri Bhagavan's business.He certainly did not stand on any pedestal.He did not look for any opportunity,nor did he miss any!Who can say how many politicians,judges,statesmen,etc were inspired by merely seeing him or hearing about him and what good they did to the society and what bad they refrained from!How to keep track of this credit and debit in the ledger books!It is the job of Chitragupta!Gandhi certainly missed the opportunity to see Sri Bhagavan and I am not sure if it is on account of his insisting that Chandalas should be allowed into the temple!If this is true all too bad for both Gandhi and the chandala!The 'chandala' is anyway allowed into the temple today and we are not sure he has benefitted in any way by this!Neither are we sure that the Brahmin is better off today as he was allowed entry into the temple all along!
Namaskar.
z/Friends,
Here is an excerpt from Sri Aurobindo's Karmayogin:
"There is no national life perfect or sound without the chaturvarnya.
The life of the nation must contain within itself the life
of the Brahmin,—spirituality, knowledge, learning, high and
pure ethical aspiration and endeavour; the life of the Kshatriya,
—manhood and strength moral and physical, the love of battle,
the thirst for glory, the sense of honour, chivalry, self-devotion,
generosity, grandeur of soul; the life of the Vaishya,—trade,
industry, thrift, prosperity, benevolence, philanthropy; the life
of the Shudra,—honesty, simplicity, labour, religious and quiet
service to the nation even in the humblest position and the most
insignificant kind of work. The cause of India’s decline was
the practical disappearance of the Kshatriya and the dwindling
of the Vaishya. The whole political history of India since the
tyranny of the Nandas has been an attempt to resuscitate or
replace the Kshatriya. But the attempt was only partially successful.
The Vaishya held his own for a long time, indeed, until
the British advent by which he has almost been extinguished.
When the chaturvarnya disappears, there comes varnasankara,
utter confusion of the great types which keep a nation
vigorous and sound. The Kshatriya dwindled, the Vaishya dwindled,
the Brahmin and Shudra were left. The inevitable tendency
was for the Brahmin type to disappear and the first sign of
his disappearance was utter degeneracy, the tendency to lose
himself and while keeping some outward signs of the Brahmin
to gravitate towards Shudrahood. In the Kaliyuga the Shudra is
powerful and attracts into himself the less vigorous Brahmin, as
the earth attracts purer but smaller bodies, and the Brahmatej,
the spiritual force of the latter, already diminished, dwindles to
nothingness."
I warmly recommend reading sri Aurobindo,who carried forward Swamiji's mantle along the Social and Spiritual paths.What is happening today is clearly foreseen by these giants-and it is significant that Sri Aurobindo completely withdrew from the political scene as he was assured by the Divine that the independence of India is already a foregone conclusion!
The books of Sri Aurobindo are available as Downloads from this site:
http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php
Namaskar.
hj,
"Ravi you may be a Brahmin and a sensitive soul at that, but you are unable to shake off your conditioning!"
Friend,I have to say you have got me wrong.What i have conveyed is to say that the needs and inclinations of the downtrodden are elsewhere and the politicians extract mileage by posing as their champions and fighting for their 'Rights'.The so called 'Rights' are not the priority of the Downtrodden.Mahatma Gandhi may take the broomstick to clean a few toilets for a few days but could he continue to do that all his life?Following in his footsteps,smt Indira gandhi would wear a few feathers on her head when she visits Nagaland!This is not 'identifying' with the people!This is the sort of facade that I wanted to pull down.
(For your kind information,in our home the Domestic help gets her share of hot and fresh Food and tastes it first before we even sit down to eat.Just to clear your doubt;Do not want to be autobiographical).
To be compassionate is one thing and to be compliant to the needs of Place and time is another.Every place,activity has its protocols and associated set of rules-and in the name of equality,this cannot be breached.
Here is Sri Bhagavan narrating the story of janaka:
They took a brahmin, an untouchable, a cow, an elephant, and a dog to the court of King Janaka, who was a jnani. When all had arrived King Janaka sent the brahmin to the place of brahmins, the cow to its shed, the elephant to the place allotted to elephants, the dog to its kennel and the untouchable person to the place where the other untouchables lived. He then ordered his servants to take care of his guests and feed them all appropriate food.
The people asked, "Why did you separate them individually? Is not everything one and the same for you?"
"Yes, all are one, replied Janaka, but self-satisfaction varies according to the nature of the individual. Will a man eat the straw eaten by the cow? Will the cow enjoy the food that a man eats? One should only give what satisfies each individual person or animal"
Did Sri Bhagavan say that Janaka was wrong?-in that the untouchable should have been placed along with the Brahmin! This is simply not required.Each one can be Great wherever he is and can do his bit.Sri Bhagavan exactly did this!This is what he permitted in his Ashram-not out of a sense of expediency!Not that it was convenient to stay out of controversy!Not because he was smart!As a Athivarnasrami,He mingled freely with one and all-as he only could!
Sri Bhagavan was the Living embodiment of Brahman.
Namaskar.
Z,
Thanks very much for recommending papa Ramdas's In Quest of God-This and the sequel to this 'In the Vision of God' are among my perennial favourites.Papa is a Great soul-a Joyous child of Ram(God).I had the good fortune of staying in Anandashram for a day or two in 1978 and have the Blessings of Mataji Krishnabai-A Great soul-Radiant and fresh as a flower.
Yes,just to think of papa is a blessing.
Namaskar.
Ah, that's funny. I wrote a post yesterday and it seemed to fail to post and appeared completely lost, so I rewrote it again from scratch. That's why there's two posts there that say basically the same thing. Sorry for the confusion and duplication.
z/Friends,
one of my favourite stories is that of Nanda,the Pariah Saint.I did post it in one of the open threads in this blog but I think this is not accessible.
I am glad that i found this link in Google books-The Book is 'Rambles in Vedanta'-by Sri Rajam Iyer who lived only 26 years on this earth.Rajam Iyer was a favourite disciple of Vivekananda,and was only 24 when he founded the magazine Prabuddha Bharata.
His moving account of the Story of nanda can be read here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=89doofWiWJIC&pg=PA505&lpg=PA505&dq=nanda+the+pariah+saint&source=bl&ots=EgLXqYP638&sig=GUIR8MsciizoPv6t-WjzEyzXE24&hl=en&ei=q6PNTOX4MIqycefLrL4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=nanda%20the%20pariah%20saint&f=false
I never tire of reading this story and the way Sri Iyer has narrated it.One of my hot favourites is also the Tamil opera on nandanar by Gopalakrishna Bharati who was a contemporary of the Great Saint Sri Thyagayya.
This along with Kannappa Nayanar,the famous Hunter saint of kalahasti are perennial favourites since my childhood days.Sri Bhagavan has narrated the story of kannappar and this is wonderfully captured in 'At the Feet of Bhagavan' by sri TK Sundaresa Iyer.
Namaskar.
Ravi/z,
Yes, the collective body of human beings is an important part of spiritual life and should not be ignored. The question is, how to understand this collective for what it actually is and work with it? Is the collective really a bunch of separate egos who must be organized from within and made to conform in a certain way to a group mind? Isn't that the same "solution" the ego has imposed on the body-mind itself? And doesn't it lead to endless confusion, conflict, and misery?
So I think it's important to recognize that Ramana's approach is a truly "radical" one. I was watching the Baader-Meinhoff Complex movie the other night, and it documented the attempts of political "radicals" to change the collective world for the better. However, it was entirely based on the ego and only created more conflict and mayhem. Why? Because they wanted to change the "system" without changing the ruling principle of egoity. They thought egos could change the world for the better by eliminating "bad" egos and putting "good" egos in charge - namely, their own egos.
Ramana's approach isn't to find good egos and organize the collective around that. All you get then is a larger ego wrecking havoc as it tries to survive and create the illusion of its own existential dominance. Ramana says, let's look at ego directly and go beyond this illusion, at every level. So if you do Ramana's practice of inspecting the ego, it not only eliminates the personal illusion of ego that we suffer, it also eliminates the collective illusion of ego that the collective suffers. It helps us see that we are not actually separate individuals at all, that we are One, and we can thus act as One, conscious of our mutual identity as the Self. That's how the collective is changed for real, by waking up to the Self as our true identity, not by somehow reforming the ways of the ego which are always based in conflict, duality, and fearful threat.
So in my view it's Ramana's approach that most directly changes the world, and not approaches which accept the collective ego as a real given and try to reform it. By undermining the ego at every level of its manifestation, Ramana is actually changing the world, and everyone who engages in that sadhana is also changing the world for real, by releasing all of us from the illusory bondage of ego.
We are not actually separate beings. Everything one of us does, so do we all. When one of us releases the ego-illusion, we all benefit. The world becomes that much "lighter". And as a consequence the collective situation is even changed for the better in many practical ways that can't be defined in cause and effect ways.
So it's not that Ramana was against collective change, he was merely trying to do it right, and paying attention to the single factor that really does determine all of that - the penetration of the ego-illusion. He was making a truly radical approach that gets to the heart of the matter.
David,
Same thing happened when I tried to post. I got an error message saying my post was too large to process. Yesterday when that happened it seemed to post anyway, so I will trust that's the case today. If it doesn't appear tomorrow I will try again.
Thanks.
Dear Ravi, I'm glad to hear that you treat your servant well and being a good man it never entered my mind that you would be an indifferent employer. My response was about social conditioning in India in general. There is an interesting story in "The power of the presence". Ramana was working in the kitchen with non brahmins. The Brahmin kitchen workers were still asleep as it was after Jayanti celebrations. Bhagavan took us into the kitchen to make uppama.
A little later he added "Don't tell any of the others that we did the cooking. The brahmins will not eat if they find out that you cooked their food"
This was a good example of Bhagavans attitude to brahmin orthodoxy. He went to alot of trouble to avoid offending the sentiments of orthodox brahmins, mainly by permitting only brahmins to cook the ashram food, but he was not so strict that he was not willing to bend the rules once in awhile if it was in a good cause. His attitude was governed by a desire to avoid complaints and dissension, rather thean a desire to stick to the letter of caste dharma.
I understand that brahmins are unwilling to let go of the privileges they have gained over thousands of years.
hj
hj,
"I understand that brahmins are unwilling to let go of the privileges they have gained over thousands of years."
What is the privilege?
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi,
For a moment forget things like Ego and spirituality.Consider the world as populated by things animate and inanimate-we certainly cannot deny this reality.What is the relation of human being with the environment and other Living beings?This is vital for the Human being and the environment-living and non living.Who is to organize this?We know what the ordinary Intellect can do,how it has made a mess of so called progress and how even the brightest of scientists are now bothered about events like Global warming and deforestation.What then is the way?It does not help to say that the 'World does not exist' or that 'God will take care' or to say that 'it cannot be helped'.
Sanatana Dharma had found the answers and just the Right balance to this vital question of collective existence-These were not found by the brilliant idea(even spiritual)of any one individual but were organized by the distilled wisdom over Years and this was the secret why the 'Sanatana dharma' civilization had survived all these years and is still a Vital force recouping itself-and asserting the spiritual values as the only lasting Foundation of meaningful existence.
We are not discussing Karma yoga -but the Organization of Life as a whole.Not all people are of the thinking type and pursue spiritual goals.Not everyone wants to abnegate the Ego-want to give up their claims over their bretheren or give up Life as a meaningless dream.Each one has to be engaged in a way that enables him to achieve his natural inclination and dream,yet balance it in such a way that he does not become a burden to himself and society.This is a vast and complex phenomena and the glory of sanatana Dharma is that it evolved the most sophisticated yet practical balance between individual aspiration and collective existence.
This is what the Varna(caste) and Ashrama(Brahmachari,Householder,Renunciate and the Ascetic types) achieved in a Brilliant way as the true history(not the modern superficial farce)has recorded.There has been a degeneration of both the varna and Ashrama elements,the varna is in namesake only for the majority;the Ashrama also has undergone considerable degeneration with only the householder and the Sanyasi left and often the Sanyasi exchanging places with the Householder!
It is certainly not possible to wind back time.Yet the vital elements of each type may be revived in a new form and this is upto the individual in whatever area he finds himself.
More on this later.
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi/Friends,
The varna ashrama Dharma provides a structural framework to organized living -very much as ITIL or CMMI or any other standards do in the field of IT or a ISO would do in the field of manufacturing.To say that it is enough if one does a fundamentally Logical Software Code based on a sound algorithm-that would fit in anywhere and would take care of the end result.This is okay for the individual but for collaborative efforts ,we do require a framework with clear convention and standards.These frameworks intrinsically have nothing to do with what is developed ,yet they promote the development and collaborative effort and puts every individual in a right relationship with the rest.This sort of framework is provided by the Varna Ashrama Dharma.Self enquiry does not provide this Framework-it is akin to giving the shortest algorithm.
More Later.
Namaskar.
Ravi,
I agree that self-enquiry does not provide a framework, but I don't think that a suitable framework can come about without self-enquiry. If people remain ignorant of who they are, what kind of framework can they possibly create other than an ignorant one?
Self-enquiry, even for beginners, helps ground us in reality. It makes it possible to create a suitable framework that is also based in reality. That is how the sanathana dharma came into existence in the first place, and if it has degenerated perhaps it is because people have forgotten that the Self is the basis for even creating a framework. Instead, people want some kind of worldly framework based on ideologies and nationalities and material science and so forth. But they leave out the direct knowledge of the Self, and so society falls apart and there is no grounded order to it.
What is missing? Self-enquiry is missing. Knowledge of the Self is missing. One can say that sananthan dharma or the varna system is missing, but why are they missing? Because the core, the very basis of those systems, are missing. Such things are hollow and empty and pointless without a real basis in knowledge of the Self. And self-enquiry can provide that. So self-enquiry can provide the real basis for a sound social system, highly adaptable and not fixed to some ancient ideals, but related in the present to the living consciousness of the Self which is the basis for everything, animate and inanimate.
And yes, most are not interested, but fortunately, because we are all from the same Self, if any of us does this real sadhana, all will benefit from it. We all benefited from Ramana doing it, and others can benefit from us doing it. It's not merely for the benefit of the person who does it, since we are not separate persons.
And yes, there is much practical work that gets done on top of that, and one cannot just ignore that and spout platitudes, but the basis for making even those practical matters function harmoniously is the direct and grounded knowledge of the Self, even at the beginner's level of practice.
One cannot build anything without the proper foundation, it will just topple over and fall. But with the proper foundation, a solid society can be built which restores the principle of reality to human existence, both at the collective and the personal level. One does not have to be a great realizer to see and experience the advantages of this. Even a little bit of wisdom casts out great fear.
Toni Pack: "In the expectation of wonderful things to happen
in the future, one doesn't hear the sound of the
wind and rain, the breath and heartbeat this
instant. Fantasy provides stimulation. When
fantasizing, one imagines pleasant past and future
experiences....
Can we see that fantasy creates constant new
stimulation that drowns out the lack of stimulation
right now? And what is that?
Boredom?
What one one labels "boredom", one does not take
the time or energy to experience directly........
What is boredom when the label is put aside? There
are sensations throughout the body. There may be a
very flat, dull state and also a certain
restlessness from wanting something else, something
more exciting, a new and different stimulation.
This is not just mental or verbal stuff: the whole
body creaves its accustomed "fix". The process is
like addiction and withdrawal - feeling deprived
and wanting, wanting, wanting.
.......We rarely touch THIS. We rarely contact this
simple moment. So used to constant input and
excitement, we lack fine-tuning into all the
subtleties of this instant, the ability to register
quiet aliveness without the stirring of
expectation.
.....We think we can't bear it - the boredom, the
depression, the pain. We feel it's too awful, too
difficult. It's not the "spiritual work" we
imagine. But these are all thoughts, feelings,
labels.
What is the real thing - this instant of not
expecting anything?"
hj
_____________________________________________________________
Dear Friends, Amendment that should read Toni Packer.
hj
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM23eviKGX4
-z
Friends,
Arthur Osbourne wrote a fine article on The Maharishi's place in History-It is featured on page 33 in Book featuring a collection of Arthur's articles-Be still,It is the Wind that Sings.Here is an excerpt that has great relevance to what we have been grappling with:
The Maharshi’s Place in History
A NEW DEVELOPMENT has come about in Hinduism since
the time of Ramakrishna. Because, ancient as it is, Hinduism is still
capable of development. That means that it is still living, for
development is the quality of life, rigidity of death. It is surprising
how little this development has been noticed; it just seems to be
taken for granted. It is of fundamental importance.
In order to appreciate it one must see clearly what Hinduism is.
It is a fusion between an organization of life and worship on what
might be called the horizontal plane and paths to beatitude on the
vertical. Of course, not every Hindu takes a path to beatitude—he
can still be a Hindu without that. But he cannot be without the
horizontal affiliation, that is to say without either being integrated
into the Hindu social system or having renounced it, like a
sannyasin. And this horizontal modality of Hinduism is so complex
that it would be hard for an outsider to fit into it even if he tried. As
for his becoming a sannyasin, that would mean adopting the Hindu
pattern of life in order to renounce it, which seems rather absurd.
For this reason, Hinduism is not and cannot be a proselytising
religion. It is also not an intolerant religion. For those who do
follow a path to Beatitude there are a number to choose from,
and, for instance, one whose path is through the worship of
Rama will not condemn or try to convert another whose path
is through the worship of Krishna. Why should not this apply
also to one whose path is through the worship of Christ?
What has been happening since the time of Ramakrishna is
that the path of Beatitude is being detached from the social
organization of life, so that people from outside the Hindu
community can receive spiritual guidance from its gurus without
needing to integrate themselves into that community. This is a
change of tremendous importance, since it enables the spiritual
influence to radiate out beyond the limits of the organization."
continued.....
Friends,
Arthur Osbourne contd...
What is similar is that, now as then, a materialistic world has
broken away from religion and many are looking around
desperately for guidance. People are giving up religion and,
even for those who seek, the paths to Beatitude are becoming
lost or inaccessible for the guidance is no longer reliable. Divine
Providence always meets the needs of its children, but not always
in the same way. In the time of St. Paul it did so through the
establishment of a new religion; today it does so by making
spiritual guidance available outside the formal structure of the
religions. This is happening in various ways; in the resurgence
of non-denominational Christian mysticism through inspired
teachers such as Joel Goldsmith, in the spread of Buddhism in
the West, not as a creed for the many but as a path for the few,
and in this new development in Hinduism, making the path to
Beatitude available outside the structure of Hindu orthodoxy.
The proof that this new development in Hinduism is a valid
and not a heretical one is that it has been brought about from
above, by the masters themselves, beginning with Ramakrishna
and culminating in Ramana Maharshi.
It was Vivekananda who was the most spectacular in
introducing this new trend with the Vedanta Societies he
founded in the West; but it was not his innovation. Ramakrishna
was not mistaken in saying that Vivekananda would complete
his work. That work has two aspects; to restore Hinduism to
35
vigour and self-respect in India and to make it known as a
spiritual current in the West, a current available to Western
seekers. Both were carried to completion by Vivekananda.
Ramakrishna himself had no foreign disciples, but he
dreamed once that he was in a Western town of large, modern
buildings, surrounded by Westerners, and he interpreted it to
mean that he would have many disciples in the West. After his
Mahasamadhi, his wife, Sarada Devi, whom all the disciples
revered as the Holy Mother, quite naturally and without
argument initiated foreign disciples, even though she spoke only
Bengali, which they did not know. All the other disciples
approved of this, and of Vivekananda’s more spectacular action
in the West, and followed in the same direction.
Since then this has become the regular practice with Hindu
Gurus. All or almost all of them accept foreign disciples without
expecting them to integrate themselves into the Hindu social
system or practice Hindu religious ritual.
.....continued.....
Friends,
Arthur Osbourne contd....
This practice culminated in Ramana Maharshi. There was
something mysterious about the initiation he gave—no laying
on of hands, no mantra, no outer form at all; only the mouna
diksha, the silent initiation. Although silent, this was a definite
event, not a gradual process. He himself confirmed this in various
oblique ways when necessary, asserting that, from the point of
view of the disciple, the Guru-disciple relationship is a necessity
and explaining that a spiritual practice (and he was constantly
enjoining one) only has potency for those who are initiated into
it. For those who experienced his initiation no conformation was
necessary. If they were in his presence it was given through a
penetrating look of terrific power; if at a distance perhaps through
a dream or vision, perhaps formlessly. In any case, the disciple
felt taken up, swept forward on a wave of power, thenceforward
guided and supported. And in any case there was nothing
specifically Hindu about it, nothing to make it available to
members of one community only and inaccessible to others.
That was one advantage of the silent initiation. Now that he is
no longer in the body we see another also—that it can still
continue, whereas formal initiation could not. He himself
indicated in various ways before leaving the body that his guidance
would continue; for instance, when some devotees complained
that he was leaving them without guidance and asked what they
were to do without him, he replied: “You attach too much
importance to the body.” The implication was obvious; the body
was going, he was not. And indeed, he said: “They say that I am
going, but where would I go? I am here.” Not “I shall be” but “I
am”. The body could go, but the formless Self, with which he
was in constant conscious identity, just is, eternally, here and now.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Any idea why Arthur Osborne titled his book on Bhagavan, "The Mind of Ramana Maharishi"?
He couldn't have chosen a more oxymoronic title. Can someone please explain?
salutations to all:
Anonymous wrote [You are my mind, I am your mind. I am you, you am I - Thank myself who is yourself! for now am gone... I just passed by here...]
mr. anonymous: one question - are you self-realised? if yes, we are all here blessed to have one such in our midst; if NOT, your lines are the same old intellectual gibberish that people never tire of copying from fancied sources, which are devoid of any meaning or substance. after one has tasted even a fraction of bhagavAn's writings, all these quotations, i mean the nonsense of 'I am you, you am I', lose all appeal & mean next to nothing. let alone 'impress', such lines are not even wrong!!
in any case, your last line, which is more like a command '[i restrain. leave it as it is.]', is clearly inconsistent with your initial sentences! nonetheless, no offence meant, nor is my intention to slip into any kind of an unworthy argument.
hj,
A famous guy said 'Where are they?' Do you know if all the physically dead jnanis are now enjoying that 'unbroken happiness', that 'Direct Happiness', that 'everlasting Bliss and Beatitude'?? Where are they?
Yes there may be glory before death but dont confuse that with death itself.There is nothing glorious and virtuous about death(death of the ego) nor any vice with desire.It is just that you had enough.That is all it means.
-Z
Broken Yogi,
"What is missing? Self-enquiry is missing. Knowledge of the Self is missing. One can say that sananthan dharma or the varna system is missing, but why are they missing? Because the core, the very basis of those systems, are missing."
I understand that the bunyanesque structure of Sanatana dharma is not something that is easy to get across to someone not familiar with its ethos and culture.
Spirituality can be sustained only if spirituality is appreciated in some form or other-This is put in this form ,that Dharma protects the one who protects it!
Dharma is not something that is mechanically worked out-something empirically put together by a group of minds through a hit and trial approach.Dharma is something that springs organically from the source and sustains and organizes Life.It is the Natural efflorescence of the latent becoming patent-the manifestation of the inherent potential of the spirit on the material plane.The principles and applications were evolved over years by the Great ones-Maharishis and these had seeped into all walks of life of the people on the physical,political,moral,social,cultural,religious planes.
Now coming to the waning of Dharma-it is not on account of lack of awareness of Self-at all times,the ones who were fully blown Sages were always less than a handful!If everyone is aware of the Self,it is like begging the question.
The Dharma waned because of Neglect of the Practice of Dharma.The Practice of Dharma is in the adherence to the Daily Practices and observances in all its details and not just in moral and social injunctions. As Sri Aurobindo clearly indicated that it is on account of the wiping out of the Kshatriya(The warrior Class) and the Vaisya(Business class)-by foreign invasions.The Brahmin(the spiritual,intellectual service providers)could not survive as they were dependent on the above two types for protection and sustenance and was left along with the Sudra(the Physical service Provider).
Piety,Humility,contentment,sense of duty,sharing,peaceful coexistence,Flourishing of Arts,Music,poetry,literature,philosophy-these are characteristics of the Hindu social fabric.This equilibrium got disturbed.
The West and the East were opening the doors to each other and this added to the Flux.
However,the saving grace of India has been its endless procession of Great Sages,Yogis ,saints and savants-and this served as the Foil.
Even today,the Heartbeat of India is in its love for the spiritual verities.I clearly can see that this turnaround in the younger generation-this is much more than what I have observed in my Father's generation.Despite the pull of the mass media peddling out mindless stuff-i see the revival of interest in spirituality. Today the spiritual teachers draw a bigger crowd than the politicians or the movie stars.
Namaskar.
Friends,
"And in any case there was nothing
specifically Hindu about it, nothing to make it available to
members of one community only and inaccessible to others."
somewhere here Arthur Osbourne seems to lose his way in his eagerness to project Sri Bhagavan as above all 'isms'.What he describes is known as 'cakshu diksha'(initiation by mere seeing) and is not unique to Sri bhagavan only-it is a recognized form of initiation along with hasta(initiation by touch) and mantra Diksha,etc.
The advaita philosophy is certainly above all 'isms' and has its Traditional advocates as well-Sri Sankara being one of the foremost exemplars.
It is not as if Sri Bhagavan was totally divorced from Tradition-Where then is the need for the Matru Bhuteswara temple with its Meru Chakra-where Sri Bhagavan spent a Night with his Hand implanted on the Meru Chakra?This was certainly not forced on him nor did he give in to the importunities of the orthodox.
Why the chanting of the vedas that is continued to this day?
It is not as if the Sages steeped in Tradition would have shut the door on outsiders-The Sage of kanchi being a classic example with a sizeable foreign devotees who had visited him.
One can be Orthodox and yet be open and accessible.
Namaskar.
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from the Talks of The Sage of kanchi-one of the spiritual giants and a contemporary of sri bhagavan:
"Talking of the varna system I am reminded of the early days of aviation. In
the beginning the air ship[dirigible balloon] was filled with one gas bag. It
was discovered that the vessel would collapse even if it sprang just one
leak. So it was fitted with a number of smaller gas bags and kept afloat
without much danger of its crashing. The principle of different duties and
vocations for different sections of society is similar to what kept the old
type of airship from collapsing. In the varna system we have an example
of unity in diversity.
Fastening together a large number of individual fire sticks is not easy: the
bundle is loosened quickly and the sticks will give way. The removal of
even one stick will make the bundle loose and, with each stick giving way,
you will be left with separate sticks. Try to tie together a handful of sticks
at a time instead of all the sticks together. A number of such small
sheaves may be easily fastened together into a strong and secure larger
bundle. Even if it becomes loose, none of the smaller bundles will come
away. This is not the case with the large bundle bound up of individual
sticks. A bundle made up of a number of smaller sets will remain well
secured.
To keep a vast community bound together in a single uniform structure is
well-nigh an impossible task. Because of its unmanageable size it is not
easily sustained in a disciplined manner. This is the reason why - to revert
to the example of the fuel sticks - the community was divided into jatis
[similar to the smaller bundles in the analogy of the fire sticks] and each
jati assigned a particular vocation. Each varna was divided into a number
of jatis [smaller bundles], with each jati having a headman with the
authority to punish offenders. Today criminals are sentenced to prison or
punished in other ways. But the incidence of crime is on the increase
since all such types of punishment have no different effect. In the jati
system the guilty took the punishment to heart. So much so that, until
the turn of the century, people lived more or less honourably and there was little incidence of crime. The police and the magistrates did not have
much work to do.
What was the punishment meted out to offenders by the village or jati
headman? Excommunication. Whether it was a cobbler or a barber -
anyone belonging to any one of the jatis now included among the
"backward" or "depressed" classes - he would feel deeply stung if he
were thrown out of his jati: no punishment was harsher or more
humiliating than excommunication."
continued....
Friends,
The Sage of kanchi...continued...
"What do we learn from all this? No jati thought poorly of itself or of
another jati. Members of each jati considered themselves the supreme
authority in managing their affairs. This naturally gave them sense of
contentment and satisfaction. What would have happened if some jatis
were regarded as "low" and some others as "high"? Feelings of inferiority
would have arisen among some sections of the community and perhaps,
apart form Brahmins and Ksatriyas, no jati would have had any sense of
pride in itself. If each jati had no respect for itself no one would have
taken excommunication to heart. When the entire society was divided
into small groups called jatis, not only did one jati have affection for
another, each also trusted the other. There was indeed a feeling of
kinship among all members of the community. This was the reason why
the threat of excommunication was dreaded.
Now some sections of the community remain attached to their jatis for
the only reason that they enjoy certain privileges as members belonging
to the "backward" classes. But they take no true pride in belonging to
their respective jatis. In the old days these sections "enjoyed" no special
privileges but we know it to be a fact that, until some three or four
generations ago, they were proud of belonging to their jatis. We must
add that this was not because - as is the case today - of rivalries and
jealousies among the various groups. There were indeed no quarrels, no
rivalries, based on differences of jati. Apart from pride, there was a sense
of fulfilment among members of each jati in pursuing the vocation
inherited from their forefathers and in observing the rites proper to it.
Hindu Dharma
91
Nowadays trouble-makers defy even the police. But in the past, in the
system of jatis, there was no opposition to the decisions of the headman.
The police are, after all, part of an outward system of discipline and law
enforcement. But in jati rule the discipline was internal since there was a
sense of kinship among the members of each jati. So in the jati set-up
crime was controlled more effectively than in today's system of restoring
to weapons or the constabulary. Though divided according to jatis and
the occupations and customs pertaining to each of them, society
remained united. It was a system that ensured harmony."
-----------------------------------
hj was referring to the 'privileges' enjoyed by a Brahmin!-The ideas of 'privilege' and 'rights' is a relatively recent phenomena of British Raj and was unknown in the not so distant past.Back then it was only duties and adherence to Varna Dharma.
The Book Hindu Dharma is available as a Download-this is a compilation of Talks by the Sage of kanchi.These have been spoken to different audience(not scholarly) and may not have the intellectual rigour and Logical progression.For those not familiar with the Sage,suffice it to say that he is a Jnani,a Scholar,a savant who travelled and knew each and every inch of this country and its people FIRST HAND,a Monk who the Dalai lama described as the only monk of the century,a man with an encyclopaedic knowledge on any subject,who knew the Bible,the Koran,a Musician who knew how to play the Veena and could correct professionals!-so definitely not just a pontiff.
You may start reading from page 85 onwards of this book:
http://www.cincinnatitemple.com/articles/HinduDharma.pdf
Namaskar.
Dear S, Depressed and exuberant states coupled with grandiose
fantasies and paranoid tendencies are not uncommon to many
claiming to be `lived by' the advaitain.
Dear Ravi, The old story about the jug maker who finds a
pumpkin vine with a pumpkin that has just start to
develop. Just for the sake of it, he slips the pumpkin
inside one of his jugs and leaves it.
When the harvest time comes, the pumpkin has grown
only as large as the jug. The sides of the jug have
limited the potential of, as well as shape, the
pumpkin.
So perhaps the brahmin is a little like the jug maker. He has limited the potential of the lower castes. He could not forsee how all this would unfold. Perhaps in the beginning it was right but somehow outgrew the original intent.
hj
Ravi,
Yes, I appreciate Sanathana Dharma greatly, but I am not a Hindu and have never been to India, so I cannot pretend to grasp its intricacies and living traditions. But then again, Ramana was not a Hindu either, as he made clear numerous times, and so I think it is important to realize that his teaching is not only for Hindus. That is perhaps why he did not provide a "framework" such as Sanathana Dharma, but only the foundation for any number of frameworks, which to him meant self-enquiry.
Ramana seemed to appreciate Sanathana Dharma because to him it was founded in the knowledge of the Self. His view would not be that Sanathana Dharma is merely a series of practices and traditions, but a way of extending this knowledge of the Self into the whole of human culture. And that is Ramana's intention as well - to extend the knowledge of the Self into all human cultures, not merely Hindu ones. So he provides the foundation for that, in the practice of self-enquiry, while leaving the framework to those of each of the various cultures of the world, even the modern western culture.
He was not opposed to Sanathana Dharma by any means, so long as it is founded in the principle of self-enquiry, but I don't think he advocated its practices unless they were founded in at least the understanding of the Self and a sincere orientation towards the Self. The purpose of a spiritual culture, to him, was to provide the means for the extinction of vasanas and the realization of the Self, by founding one's life in self-enquiry and self-surrender. And that is the origin of Sanathana Dharma as well. But many unfortunately do not see or practice it in that way and see the perpetuation of its own traditions and practices as the way to maintain its purity. But often that only turns the means for the extinction of vasanas into a vasana itself, and the purpose of the practice becomes lost in the perpetuation of the framework itself, rather than the purpose the framework is supposed to be oriented towards.
One is certainly free to disagree with Ramana's approach and his placement of self-enquiry at the center of all frameworks or dharmas, and see it as lacking a wider context. But I think that misses the point of self-enquiry and why Ramana placed it at not only the apex of dharma but as its foundation as well.
Ramana is a not merely a reformer within the Hindu tradition, he stands abreast all the traditions, and points to the core principle that makes them come alive and allows all sorts of frameworks and spiritual cultures to flourish and serve the purposes of the Self. He points to the Heart that makes the whole of spirituality come to life and produce new generations of devotees of the Self in whatever culture or religion they belong to. Sanathana Dharma is one such tradition, but the world is full of traditions that can build a framework around self-enquiry, and Ramana pointed to all of them as valid means. He did not try to build a single framework because he did not want to fix his teachings to any one tradition or set of practices, but to allow them to bring the life and consciousness of the Self to all who were touched by him. Which they most assuredly have.
This is a nice and famous ancient story about man and inner development:
The history of Hayy Ibn Yaqzuan by Abu Bakr Ibn Tufail
Ibn Tufail at Wikipedia
Distraction would be one of the most significant hindrances to Awakening.
Mind like a butterfly.
A friend said, "it's not until we become 'disenchanted' will we turn within".
~ Bruce
This is also really nice:
The high hills are a refuge for the stags, the rocks for the hedgehogs, which is very fairly applied in the sense we have given, because whosoever continues in simplicity and innocence is not injurious or offensive to any one, but being content with his own simple condition endeavours simply to defend himself from being spoiled by his foes (bold emphasized by Clemens Vargas Ramos), and becomes a sort of spiritual hedgehog and is protected by the continual shield of that rock of the gospel, i.e., being sheltered by the recollection of the Lord's passion and by ceaseless meditation on the verse given above he escapes the snares of his opposing enemies.
And of these spiritual hedgehogs we read in Proverbs as follows: And the hedgehogs are a feeble folk, who have made their homes in the rocks. And indeed what is feebler than a Christian, what is weaker than a monk, who is not only not permitted any vengeance for wrongs done to him but is actually not allowed to suffer even a slight and silent feeling of irritation to spring up within?
John Cassian, Conference 10
Hi Clemens,
A good link for some of the greatest books of Sufism including that of Ibn Arabi(Bezels of Wisdom), Rumi etc
http://sufibooks.info/sufism/
If you haven't yet read I would recommend 'Bezels of Wisdom' by Ibn Arabi; one of the greatest works on Divine secrets but have to warn you it is very difficult to digest.
z
Broken Yogi,
You seem to be using the word Hindu as if it is like Christian,Muslim.You will not find the word Hindu anywhere in the Vedas or Upanishads-it has a purely geographical significance-people who lived on the other side of the River Sindhu.To draw a geogrpahical boundary to sanatana Dharma is a mistake.The Russia of present day is derived from Rishi varsha-Land of the Rishis.It is where the Sage Agasthya is believed to have lived with his wife Lopamudra before he crossed over the Vindya mountains down South.Even today the female name lopamudravia is quite common in those parts of Russia!
The Sanatana Dharma is not a local or Regional Dharma-but was prevalent all over the Globe.It is not parochial but truly universal if we remember the Vedas and the upanishads.
What are the Practices of Sanatana Dharma-At the Heart of it is Vedas-The Daily Practice of Sandhya vandana that is enjoined upon is a combination of Asana,Pranayama,Mantra Yoga,Meditation all combined in a capsule form-all to be done by tuning oneself with Nature at the crucial Junctions of Night meeting day and Day meeting Night.This has a cyclic rythm to it.
At the Heart of it is the Gayatri mantra-which is meditation on the Self.This is a comprehensive physical,psychic,intellectual and spiritual practice.
Just like 'who am I' cannot replace the Physical exercise,it cannot replace the other practices but is present in a subtle way in all the practices-as without awareness there cannot be any practice.It is embedded in these practices.In its purest form it can be practised only when the Body consciousness is dropped;and this is not easy for most practitioners.
Now coming to the Traditions,it is not as if the so called 'Hindu' tradition is a homogeneous one-it varies from region to region and a neighbouring state within India will have people speaking languages that the other can not even guess!In other words,the 'Hindu' is a multitudinal sea of Traditions with a great swirl of Diversity.Cementing all this is the adherence to the Vedas with their crest jewel,the Upanishads.
This way,Sanatana Dharma is not a Doctrinal 'Religion'.One can be a Hindu but one cannot become a Hindu!There is no so called conversion or baptism in this.Nor is it necessary to adopt the dress and ape the manners,chant the mantras or visit a temple.Each individual is free to adopt his approach.
When you say that sri Bhagavan is not a Hindu,so is everbody!Yet his adoration of Arunachala siva,several works and translations of the works of Adi Sankara,his love of the periya purana saints -especially if you read his opening sentence in Atma Bodha Translation-leaves little doubt that he was a leaf in the tree of sanatana dharma.This in no way makes him excusive to any tradition-as Advaitic Tradition always has been.There have been the Jadabharatas,vamadevas in the past and not to mention Adi Guru Dakshinamurthy.
....Continued....
s. said
salutations to all:
Anonymous wrote [You are my mind, I am your mind. I am you, you am I - Thank myself who is yourself! for now am gone... I just passed by here...]
mr. anonymous: one question - are you self-realised?
----------------
not sure what your angle is here s., but i'm Anonymous and i never wrote that.
Broken Yogi,
...continued .....
I agree with you that the path of self Enquiry can be practised under any tradition and can be used to enhance the vitality of that tradition.This is exactly what The Sage of kanchi would advise all 'foreigners'(in the conventional sense!) to adhere to their respective traditions while enhancing their understanding of the same through the Light of Advaitic Knowledge and enquiry.A Plant that grows on the Hillside is best left to grow and flower there;just the same with another one that grows in the Plains.The Earth,the water,the wind,the Sun are common-This is what spirituality is all about.
I have taken a more entrenched view of Tradition in my last few posts as this is grossly misunderstood by most,most of all Indians!The Paradox of how Strict discipline can lead to Freedom is something not easily understood by those who have no exposure in this area.They only see a mass of mindless observances mechanically adhered to-more out of a sense of compliance than any earnest pursuit.
I have also challenged the theory of 'Supremacy' and 'privilige' of the Brahmin.People hardly have any real exposure in these areas-they go by what they have heard and what is propagated in the mass media or in shallow History Books or the few wrong samples they have seen.
As Will durant rightly said-"Most History is guessing and the rest is prejudice".
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
@z
Ibn Arabi, Bezels of Wisdoom
Thank you, z, that's very kind of you to leave this link because it is sometimes difficult to find online sources of important books.
"The Ringstones of Wisdom" unfortunately I don't have in German but I have the german edition of "Journey to the Lord of Power" which is really great. This book is described in Wikipedia as "a detailed technical manual and roadmap for the 'journey without distance'." (!)
continued from John Cassian, Conference 10:
"But whoever advances from this condition (i.e. as a hedgehog) and not only secures the simplicity of innocence, but is also shielded by the virtue of discretion, becomes an exterminator of deadly serpents, and has Satan crushed beneath his feet, and by his quickness of mind answers to the figure of the reasonable stag, this man will feed on the mountains of the prophets and Apostles, i.e., on their highest and loftiest mysteries."
Ravi,
I use the word "Hindu" because it is the common name for the religious traditions that emerged from the Vedas. If you have a better name let me know. Sanathana dharma is of course a universal philosophy, but so are all major religions, and many claim to be the true source of all the others. I have not found any religions outside of India which consider themselves to be rooted in Sanathana dharma, however.
I am not making an argument against Sanathana dharma or a criticism of those who practice it. I love it, I love the Gyatri mantra, I love a great deal about Hinduism's many traditons and Sanathana dharma's many faces. But I am not a Hindu myself as I was not born or raised in either tradition, and know of it only from afar. However, I do know Sri Ramana and have since I was very young, and I have not felt any pressure from him or from his teachings to become a Hindu. His only request is that we practice self-enquiry, and so I do that, and let it unfold as it will within the framework of my own life and the culture I know. I don't really have a particular religion to follow, and thus my practices are bare and simple.
Sri Ramana did not intend that his teachings create a cultural framework that is defined by the practices of Sanathana dharma, even if most of his Indian devotees of course grew up and lived within that tradition in one form or another. He saw no distinction in the cultural or religious sense, and not because he saw all other religions as forms of Sanathana dharma, but because he didn't see that it mattered, so long as one enquired into the Self and let go of identification with the bodily self and mind. He felt that self-enquiry could be practiced by anyone in any kind of cultural setting or background, regardless of secondary practices or traditions. He did not see the particular practices and traditions of Hinduism as having superiority over any other religion. He blessed all to practice as they pleased, but he recommended only self-enquiry, and felt that it was the best foundation for any form of spiritual life regardless of the tradition.
And personally, I think his approach was an excellent one that demonstrates the centrality of the Self. That is indeed the ancient basis for Sanathana dharma, and when that basis is forgotten, the dharma and culture decay. This has effects on the whole of the Hindu tradition, and we see it in the varna system decaying into the caste system, in the exploitation of the poor, not seeing them as equals in the Self, and all the various problems that have plagued the Indian sub-continent over the years.
I see Sri Ramana as standing in a long tradition of Adepts who point to the Self as the necessary principle around which society should be organized, and also pointing out that when it is not so ordered it becomes organized by default around the ego, even the very religious and holy ego of the pious poseurs of all religions, and thus it decays and seems to fall apart even if the practices are upheld, but the Self is not. Sanathana dharma is not exempt from this criticism and consequence, because even when the dharma is correct and the practices are performed as prescribed, if there is not the inner understanding and renunciation of the ego and the true inner knowledge of the Self, it is all for naught. And the same is true of course for all other religions.
Broken Yogi,
We started the discussion -whether 'Who Am I' of Sri Bhagavan addresses the Collective aspect of Living on the Physical,Social,Political,cultural planes of existence?
I shall pick some of the responses that you have come up with:
1.Ramana was not a Hindu either, as he made clear numerous times, and so I think it is important to realize that his teaching is not only for Hindus. That is perhaps why he did not provide a "framework" such as Sanathana Dharma, but only the foundation for any number of frameworks, which to him meant self-enquiry.
(1.We Agree that 'Jnana' is not a Framework but provides the foundation.
2.We also agree that some Framework is necessary for collective existence
3.Non observance of Practices or varna Ashrama Dharma does not brand someone as a Non Hindu.This is one of the uniqueness of Sanatana Dharma that one can choose to ne an Agnostic ).
2.I see Sri Ramana as standing in a long tradition of Adepts who point to the Self as the necessary principle around which society should be organized, and also pointing out that when it is not so ordered it becomes organized by default around the ego, even the very religious and holy ego of the pious poseurs of all religions, and thus it decays and seems to fall apart even if the practices are upheld, but the Self is not.
(1.We agree on this.Not only Sri Bhagavan but the innumerable Sages,Yogis and Saints have also emphasised this.They rejuvenated this by their lives and Teachings - the Sages in the past like Sankara,Ramanuja and Madhwa who are the main proponents of Advaita,Visishtadvaita and Dvaita philosophies.There is a continuous procession of Great ones till recent times.
2.Sanatana Dharma is not a fixed tradition but is continually renewed and revitalised by these Sages,Yogis,Avatars-As Sri Krishna said in the Gita. I have already quoted what Arthur Osbourne had to say about the advent of Sri Ramakrishna ,vivekananda and Sri Bhagavan)
3.You asked about the alternative Name for 'Hindu'-It is Sanatana Dharma.
We agree that all Traditions the world over have been built on the wisdom and Realization of Great ones.
Yet,for whatever Reason,While we have something like the Puranas in other Traditions,I have not come across systematic exposition of the Science of Yoga,the Science of Breath ,or the Science of Sound(Mantra)or the Philosophy of The Self expressed in a Logical fashion.I have come across Mystical writings in the Christian and Sufi Tradition but We do not find the same freedom of thought,the Questioning Spirit, like we find in the Upanishads.
I will be happy if others can share anything along these lines from other traditions.(Buddhism is not very different than its parent Sanatana Dharma).
Namaskar
Ravi,
We agree on far more than we disagree. We even agree that self-enquiry is not a cultural framework but a foundation for any framework, and that Sanatana Dharma is a valid framework within which self-enquiry can provide the necessary foundation. I think we would even agree that other frameworks are valid, but that Sanatana Dharma is one of the best.
Where I think we might diverge is in the view that because Ramana did not teach a framework, his teaching is incomplete. I think he intentionally left the framework-building to his devotees, because he did not want to limit them to any particular framework, even that of Sanatana Dharma. He left the issue of a cultural framework open to allow for a great variety of adaptations and evolution, even within Sanatana Dharma, not to mention every other form of spiritual culture and tradition.
I suppose I'm simply saying that it's unfair to criticize Ramana for not providing a fixed cultural framework for his teaching on self-enquiry, since that was not his intention in the first place, and something he actively avoided. There are good reasons behind his refusal to fix self-enquiry to any particular tradition, even the wide-ranging tradition of Sanatana Dharma, because his intention was to provide a grounding mechanism in the Self for all people, even those outside the Sanatana tradition.
Nonetheless, it's no accident that Ramana was born and lived within the Sanatana Dharma tradition. It's certainly the most receptive tradition to the basic teaching of self-enquiry and the Self, and the one that has the most experience with cultivating such views and practices. But Ramana was either quietly critical or indifferent to many aspects of that tradition which he felt detracted from the true living path of the Self, even if he was not one to make a fuss of such things. I think its clear that Ramana had no interest in the caste system, or even making the Vedas and scriptures authoritative, and was happy to depart from such views and practices so long as devotees were not offended or conflicts created. He had no interest in conflicts or disputes, and simply ignored such things if they were brought up. But this applied across the board to every tradition his devotees encountered, even non-Sanatana traditions. He blessed muslims and christians and buddhists and all others as well, and saw self-enquiry as something that could be practiced within those traditions.
Ravi, cont.
Now, I would also wish that many elements of Sanatana dharma could be incorporated into other traditions, but of course that isn't going to happen any time soon. Nor is it necessary. What is necessary is knowledge of the Self, and encouraging that is the way to reform spiritual traditions. Even Sanatana dharma could be greatly helped by founding its practice and even its understanding more in the actual knowledge of the Self rather than in the authority of tradition and scripture. The caste system would virtually disappear overnight if that were actually done. But of course that is not going to happen soon either. Traditions have a lot more to do with politics than they have to do with underlying spiritual truth. Ramana understood that and so did not make demands on reforming India from without, but instead focused on transforming both his devotees and the various collectives of the worlds from withing, so as to avoid the outer conflicts which arise when the outer world becomes the focus of spiritual transformation.
Ramana did not even focus on the outer conditions of his devotees lives and practices, though he did make suggestions here and there. His focus was on the inner understanding and state of his devotees, and their real progress in knowing the Self. Likewise he was not so much interested in the outer state of the collective as he was on its inner condition. He felt that it was the inner which determined the outer, and not vice-versa. The outer framework to him was not nearly as important as the inner foundation, which is why he emphasized self-enquiry rather than adherence to a framework such as Sanatana dharma.
Broken Yogi,
" many claim to be the true source of all the others. I have not found any religions outside of India which consider themselves to be rooted in Sanathana dharma, however."
Here is an Excerpt from Page 56 of The Hindu Dharma,compilation of the Talks of the Sage of Kanchi:
In the dim past what we call Hinduism today was prevalent all over the
world. Archaeological studies reveal the existence of relics of our Vedic
religion in many countries. For instance, excavations have brought up the
text of a treaty between Rameses II and the Hittites dating back to the
14th century B. C. In this, the Vedic gods Mitra and Varuna are mentioned
as witnesses to the pact. There is a connection between the name of
Ramesses and that of our Rama.
About 75 per cent of the names of places in Madagascar have a Sanskritic
origin.
In the Western Hemisphere too there is evidence of Hinduism having
once flourished there. In Mexico a festival is celebrated at the same time
as our Navaratri; it is called "Rama-Sita". Wherever the earth is dug up
images of Ganapati are discovered here. The Aztecs had inhabited Mexico
before the Spaniards conquered that land. "Aztecs” must be a distorted
form of "Astikas". In Peru, during the time of the holy equinox [vernal?]
worship was conducted in the sun temple. The people of this land were
called Incas: "Ina" is one of the Sanskrit names of the sun god. Don't we
call Rama Inakula-tilaka?
There is book containing photographs of the aborigines of Australia
dancing in the nude (The Native Tribes of Central Australia, by Spencer
Killan, pages 128 & 129). A close look at the pictures captioned "Siva
Dance", shows that the dancers have a third eye drawn on the forehead."
....Continued..........
Broken Yogi,
The Eternal Religion as a Universal Religion contd......
"You must be familiar with the story of Adam and Eve which belongs to
the Hebrew tradition. It occurs in the Genesis of the Old Testament and
speaks of the tree of knowledge and God's commandment that its fruit
shall not be eaten. Adam at first did not eat it but Eve did. After that
Adam too ate the forbidden fruit.
Here an Upanisadic concept has taken the form of a biblical story. But
because of the change in the time and place the original idea has become
distorted-or even obliterated.
The Upanisadic story speaks of two birds perched on the branch of a
pippala tree. One eats the fruit of tree while the order merely watches its
companion without eating. The pippala tree stands for the body. The first
bird represents a being that regards himself as the jivatman or individual
self and the fruit it eats signifies sensual pleasure. In the same body
(symbolized by the tree) the second bird is to be understood as the
Paramatman. He is the support of all beings but he does not know
sensual pleasure. Since he does not eat the fruit he naturally does not
have the same experience as the jivatman (the first). The Upanisad
speaks with poetic beauty of the two birds. He who eats the fruit is the
individual self, jiva, and he who does not eat is the Supreme Reality, the
one who knows himself to be the Atman.
Hindu Dharma
60
It is this jiva that has come to be called Eve in the Hebrew religious
tradition. "Ji" changes to "i" according to a rule of grammar and "ja" to
"ya". We have the example of "Yamuna" becoming "Jamuna" or of
"Yogindra" being changed to "Joginder ". In the biblical story "jiva" is
"Eve" and "Atma" (or "Atman") is "Adam". "Pippala" has in the same way
changed to "apple". The Tree of Knowledge is our "bodhi-vrksa". "Bodha"
means "knowledge". It is well known that the Budhha attained
enlightenment under the bodhi tree. But the pipal (pippala) was known
as the bodhi tree even before his time.
The Upanisadic ideas transplanted into a distant land underwent a
change after the lapse of centuries. Thus we see in the biblical story that
the Atman (Adam) that can never be subject to sensual pleasure also eats
the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. While our bodhi tree stands for
enlightenment, the enlightenment that banishes all sensual pleasure, the
biblical tree affords worldly pleasure. These differences notwithstanding
there is sufficient evidence here that, once upon a time, Vedic religion
was prevalent in the land of the Hebrews."
The Entire chapter 2 of this book talks about the prevalence of one Religion throughout the world.
The 'J' being called as 'Y' is a phenomena we find in 'Jesu' is nothing but 'Yesu' and is related to ISA or Isvara(Pronounced as eeswara)or like Yugoslovia being Jugoslovija.
Quite a strong bit of Evidence.
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi,
Your latest posts has opened a lot of aspects to be explored and understood.
I am drawing an outline here so that I will revert back in greater detail on these aspects.
1.First of all,As far as sri Bhagavan is concerned,I am happy that you are "carrying coal to Newcastle"!Here I wish to dwell on the fundamental difference in approach between Sanatana Dharma and other Faiths-namely that other faiths are centred around a single source of wisdom(predominantly)-For the Christians,Christ and the Bible are the alpha and Omega of spiritual Living;for the Muslims,Prophet Muhammed and The Koran are in a similiar position.
The Sanatana Dharma is refreshingly different in that it recognizes that no single source of Revelation can be complete and all encompassing-Here I wish to quote from the Gita,where Lord Sri Krishna Brilliantly expounds how he is among Archers Rama,Among the Trees Aswatta,etc.This beautifully sums up the collective Wisdom of Sanatana Dharma,how it is not on account of One EVENT however grandiose and Noble.
2."Even Sanatana dharma could be greatly helped by founding its practice and even its understanding more in the actual knowledge of the Self rather than in the authority of tradition and scripture. The caste system would virtually disappear overnight if that were actually done. But of course that is not going to happen soon either. Traditions have a lot more to do with politics than they have to do with underlying spiritual truth. "
This is another aspect in Sanatana Dharma that it does not distinguish between the Secular and the Spiritual-the State and The Religion-The Entire tapestry of Life is to be informed by the Spirit.
3.I also want to ask this Fundamental Question-If sanatana Dharma is so circumscribed in Rigid Prescriptions and Practices,just how is it that it had the space to permit the Freedom of Thought as is clearly seen in the Upanishads?How is it that it has evolved Religion to the state of a Science?
Here,I wish to dwell on one of the UNIQUE features of the Dharma -the Adhikari Beda-How it does not have one coat for all,one set of measure for all,one set of code and practices for all .This is the Rationale behind the so called Caste system-How I consider this as the single most creative idea that has made the Dharma Truly eternal and has been the cause of its surviving well into recent times.
More later.Time is a premium!
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi, I do agree that Eastern religion has an outstanding 'road map' but.... all these things can and do become a 'personal' comfort zone, a security blanket.
They become in other words a 'personal' fantasy of how things
are and how things should be. They are a comfortable patchwork of
beliefs that we all at some point run around in 'discovering'giving the stamp of approval to our religion,
to our 'spirituality'.
This is why Ramana 'cut to the chase' so to speak; self enquiry can be done by one and all depending on ripeness.
hj
I Am always with all beings;
I abandon no one.
And however great your inner darkness, you are never separate from Me.
(BG)
Dear David,
http://www.davidgodman.org/Arunachala_reforest.shtml
Can you give us an update on the reforestation project at the foot of Arunachala that is described in the link above. Is the project still on? Can we still send donations using the button at the bottom of the page?
hj,
"self enquiry can be done by one and all depending on ripeness."
hj,please bear with me;I understand the usual objections to the traditional approach and am aware of where the shoe pinches!
Just consider your statement that comes with a fine print qualifier!'Depending on ripeness'- clearly points out the need for other foms of guidance and practices.Sri Bhagavan has also given such guidance.
I have been examining the various aspects of Sanatana Dharma and more so the most controvertial VarnaAshrama Dharma which has some very vital strengths.
More later.
Namaskar.
Ravi,
Sanatana dharma has many wonderful facets. But it is not the only religious tradition that recognizes multiplicity and rejects exclusivity. The monotheistic Abrahamic tradition is very popular, but it is only one of many religious traditions in the world, and it is one of the few which proclaims a unique and exclusive claim to the one and only truth. And even within the Abrahamic traditions there are profound mystical traditions which depart from this exclusivity.
I do not think it possible to know for certain what the various ancient relationships and origins of religion are, but trying to claim that all religions originate with sanatana dharma and are thus forms of sanatana dharma is to impose your own viewpoint on billions of people who do not see their religion as you do. Trying to do so is to turn sanatana dharma itself into an exclusive claimaint that thinks itself the only genuine origin of truth - the very thing you are arguing that it isn't. So I find this line of argument self-contradictory.
And yes, sanatana dharma does not distinguish between the secular and the spiritual. But isn't that part of its many problems - that it imposes an unquestionable religious authority on the politics of ordinary life and thus creates gross injustices in the process? If sanathana dharma were true to its source - the Self - this would perhaps not lead to such injustice, but it clearly is not. In the Self, all are equal, and the jnani sees and treats all as equal, as Sri Ramana clearly demonstrated. And while the varna system could be compatible with the Self, the caste system is not. It does not equally value all the many roles that men play in this life, but imposes a cultural and political system which requires inequality and injustice as a means for creating social stability. It does not recognize that there are "brahmins" in every caste, and likewise "sudras" in every caste as well. Even the Buddha and Mahavira could recognize the colossal immorality of the caste system 2500 years ago and wisely rejected it, and yet sanatana dharma has persisted in stubbornly affirming it and denying all fault, which is an affront to the Self. So we cannot pretend that in practice the sanatana dharma tradition is founded in the Self and creating a true framework for the Self to manifest in the human collective. And that is only one way in which it has fallen from the Self and created a tradition around egoic notions of the world and truth. Like everything else in this world it is humanly fallible and unwilling to inspect its faults without much pressure and influence. A tradition which genuinely values humility must itself practice humility.
Now you are right that there are some core ideas and a series of great and small realizers and practitioners who have kept them alive within sanatana dharma which makes it valuable and sacred and well worth continuing. But there is much that is not really about the truth of the Self, or even founded in the Self, that gets carried along by inertia and habit, and this must be recognized from within and without or there is no discriminative intelligence at work.
In other words, the genuine practice of self-enquiry could be the foundation for a full reformation of the sanatana dharma tradition, as well as any and every other tradition. It would allow those traditions to be reformed in alignment with the source and origin of all religion - the Self. What is genuinely rooted in the Self and provides a framework through which the Self can manifest itself in human culture would survive and prosper, and that which does not could be discarded. That is perhaps a very long and slow process, and it must be allowed to happen naturally and without creating ideological or political conflicts, but it is something that would be very valuable to the long-term success of even sanatana dharma in all its forms and practices.
In 'Be As You Are' page-17 Bhagawan says:In deep sleep man is devoid of possessions including his own body.Instead of being unhappy he is quite happy....'
Many other places it is also said that the state of 'Deep Sleep' is closest to the Self.
This is something I never understood.All I remember when I wake up from what I think is a 'Deep Sleep'; I wake up feeling that the sleep was Deep and I forgot myself completely; another feature being dreamless; for eg:when I sleep after a very very tired and exhausting day.I dont wake up thinking oh that was very happy.I hope my understanding of the 'Deep Sleep' state' is the same as that desribed in Advaita texts.Please correct me if I am wrong.
So how can the state of 'Deep Sleep' or 'Dreamless sleep' whatever you call it, be the closest to the Self?
Can anyone tell me what did Bhagawan mean by being quite happy in a 'Deep Sleep' state and why is it considered as the closest state to the Self?
Cheers,
z
In 'Be As You Are' on page-20 there is an explaination of the previous question that I just posted a few minutes ago.The question was how can the 'Deep Sleep' be termed as happiness?
I think the following Q&A answers it:
Q:I agree but I do not experiece it
A:The experience is here and now.One cannot deny one's own Self.
Q:That mean Existence and not Happiness?
A:Existence is the same as Happiness and Happiness is the same as Being....
The above raises further questions:
Is the Happiness referred to here nothing but 'relief of not being in bondage'?Then to experience relief from bondage one should remember the experience of bondage and compare with it.When this actually happnes you are not 'Being' becausing you are relishing the relief. When you are 'Being' there is no you to make anything out of it.
So how can 'Being' be happiness?As far as I understand it coming out of 'Being' is Happiness and not Being itself.As you keep coming out of Being the increasing heaviness of 'Not Being' makes you feel that Being was Happiness or Relief.But Being itslef nothing can be said about it??Am I right here? Any explainations welcome.
Cheers,
-z
Happy Deepavali to All.
Let our Ignorance disappear in the light of Self.
K.
Broken Yogi,
"I do not think it possible to know for certain what the various ancient relationships and origins of religion are, but trying to claim that all religions originate with sanatana dharma and are thus forms of sanatana dharma is to impose your own viewpoint on billions of people who do not see their religion as you do. Trying to do so is to turn sanatana dharma itself into an exclusive claimaint that thinks itself the only genuine origin of truth - the very thing you are arguing that it isn't. So I find this line of argument self-contradictory."
Friend,You seem to treat Sanatana Dharma as a Proper Noun-I am treating it as a Common Noun and have posted some findings to that effect.
For instance the sound palette starts with the opening of the Mouth with a O and closing it with a M-This is the basis for all sounds and hence the AUM which is truly universal.Now because it is associated with the 'Hindu' tradition does not make it cease to be universal,Scientific Truth.This has become Amen and Amin and as can be clearly seen,these are derivatives.
The Vedic Mantras were all not created but were discovered and are primarily sounds-and whatever meaning that might be attributed to them are of secondary importance.
-----------------------------------
Like the Science of The Mantra,the Science of Yoga is again a Discovery-by observing Nature-The Peacock can digest almost anything and this was observed and 'Mayurasana' was discovered as a useful Asana for Digestion.Similiarly by observing the various animals and birds,the science of Breath was discovered-For instance tortoise have a long life and they breathe slow-Over a period of time,the practise evolves into a Tradition.This is how the science of Yoga evolved.
----------------------------------
Likewise Examination of the Waking ,dream and Sleep phenomena-is the way Jnana gets discovered.This again is universal and there is nothing parochial in this as well.
You have mentioned Abrahamic tradition and its claims.They are what I have refered to as akin to the several Puranas.Puranas are part history mixed with mythology.
What I have referred to as Sanatana Dharma comprises of Srutis(Akin to Fundamental Science ),Smritis(Akin to Applied sciences)and Itihasa/Puranas(Spiritual Truths as exemplified in Historical/Mythological fashion).
It is only natural and Logical to say that the Eternal Religion is one and the Smriti and Puranic Traditions are many-These are called Sthala Puranas-that have traditional stories particular to that place.
We are agreeing that all these Smritis and puranas have their nuggets of Truth and Glory.They have their Mysticism associated with them.Hence there is no contradiction.
-----------------------------------
Just like scientific discoveries are equally for all,Spiritual Verity is everybody's property(No Patent Rights here!) The basic problem is to associate it with only 'Hinduism'-Yet,with the opening of the cultural exchange between the East and West-Yoga,mantra and Jnana are gradually becoming universal as they must have been at some point in distant history.
...continued.....
Broken Yogi,
.....continued....
Now why is it that it has survived in part of the Globe and not in the other-The Only explanation that I can think of is the Pluralism of Traditions in the Sanatana Dharma,with its Varna ashrama Dharma.I have not encountered anything equivalent of the Brahmacharya Ashrama in other Traditions,followed by the Grihasta Ashrama,The Vanaprastha Ashrama and the Sannyasa Ashrama -There seems to be a Logical Gradation here,just like the self paced learning in modern education.The implication is that not everyone is straitjacketed in a common Syllabus-Where the Brilliant ones are not thwarted in their quest and the laggards are dished out with more elementary lessons to be Mastered.
Supplementing it all is the Guru Tradition that is part and parcel of this structure.
Likewise,the different psyches are naturally accommodated in vocations more in line with their predelictions and with a Hereditary system Facilitating a maximising of the potential over the Generations.Like if Vyasa became a Jnani as a Householder,his son Suka was a Born jnani.This also accommodates the Thinker,The Warrior,the Trader and the Physical service Providers like Agriculturists,Barbers,etc-Each for all.
I have tried to share my thoughts on this Organization of Society around the Central Spiritual goal-and where in the atmosphere was -Sarve Janaha Sukhino Bhavantu-May all People be Happy.Happy Deepavali to all.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi,
"And yes, sanatana dharma does not distinguish between the secular and the spiritual. But isn't that part of its many problems - that it imposes an unquestionable religious authority on the politics of ordinary life and thus creates gross injustices in the process? If sanathana dharma were true to its source - the Self - this would perhaps not lead to such injustice, but it clearly is not. "
From where did you get this idea?Sanatana Dharma is the only one that does not impose itself on any one.Everyone is absolutely free to accept or Reject any authority.
I think you are perhaps referring to the tales of the low caste being treated badly by the Brahmins.I have first hand information on this- and I can vouch that there was always mutual respect.The so called low caste will never sit even when offered a seat,before a brahmin.This is out of genuine respect.
Even as a Brahmin,I cannot touch my Grandpa until I took my bath.If it ever accidentally happens,he would have to go for a bath.This may appear as standoffish but it is truly not so.If at all the Mantras have to be chanted with any any degree of effectiveness,such conditions of absolute cleanliness are called forth.The chanting of these mantras are for the benefit of the whole world(not just one's personal Sadhana!).This is the reason for the Brahmin's touch-me-not aloofness.There are many other quite scientific reasons why this has to be followed.
Personally,I do not follow this,but I appreciate the necessity all the same.
This is clearly exemplified in the Life of Sri Ramakrishna who could not bear the touch of worldly people-It used to sting him.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi,
"Now you are right that there are some core ideas and a series of great and small realizers and practitioners who have kept them alive within sanatana dharma which makes it valuable and sacred and well worth continuing. But there is much that is not really about the truth of the Self, or even founded in the Self, that gets carried along by inertia and habit, and this must be recognized from within and without or there is no discriminative intelligence at work. "
You talk about Great and small Realizers-I have to open another vast topic here-that Advaita need not be ranked as the only valid philosophy!The three systems of advaita ,visishtadvaita and dvaita are all valid-and the Great ones have appeared in all the three traditions.
You may say that only in Advaita there is Freedom-yet what if the other great ones exactly say the same thing-that they are free from Fear and desire!That is equally true.You may say that they will have to be reborn and suffer;the Great ones will say-"So What?"!!!
you talk about there being nothing about the Truth of the self that is not valid,that gets carried by inertia and habit.Perhaps you are referring to the Rituals-The Purpose of a Ritual is to develop diligence and Mindfulness.Without Dilgence it becomes Inertia.
The Great effectiveness of a Ritual is that it can provide the steadiness for most beginners.Unlike a public mass,in Sanatana Dharma it is mostly an individual affair.
Ultimately it is Earnestness that matters-whether one may attempt Self Enquiry or Prayer or a Ritualistic worship.
You may also be talking about the social habits and conventions.Yes,you cannot be expecting everyone to be a Yogi-most will be ordinary people without any spiritual aim.They may be following only outer conventions.Or they may choose not to follow anything as well.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
From the book 'Be As You Are':
Q: Is it possible for a person who once has had the experience of sat-chit-ananda in meditation to identify himself
with the body when out of meditation?
A: Yes, it is possible, but he gradually loses the identification in the course of his practice. In the floodlight of the Self
the darkness of illusion dissipates for ever.
Experience gained without rooting out all the vasanas cannot remain steady. Efforts must be made to eradicate the
vasanas; knowledge can only remain unshaken after all the vasanas are rooted out.
We have to contend against age-long mental tendencies. They will all go. Only they go comparatively soon in the case
of those who have made sadhana in the past and later in the case of others.
The lines in italic point to the need of coherence of the type of path that a seeker chooses and vasanas(ripeness of the devotee)
-Z
Creatures rise and creatures vanish;
I alone am real, looking out, amused,
from deep within the eyes of every creature.
(BG)
Dear All,
Today is Deepavali.
Bhagavan explained the significance of Deepavali in the following way:
---------------------------
He who seeks whence is Naraka,
Who this hell-like world is ruling,
Mistaking the filthy body
For the Self, and after kills him
By the means of Wisdom’s Wheel,
Is Narayana. And that day
When he does it, is auspicious,
Called Naraka-Chaturdasi.
Know Deepavali is shining
As the real Self, having sought for
Naraka, the mighty sinner,
That one who deteriorated
Taking for the Self the mansion
Of this hell-like, guileful body,
Having sought him and then slain him.
-----------------------
May we all dedicate ourselves again for the quest.
Regards Murali
D.: How can the mind be brought to stillness?
M.: By dispassion, abandoning all that is dear to oneself, one can by one’s efforts accomplish the task with ease. Without this peace of mind, Liberation is impossible. Only when the whole objective world is wiped out clean by a mind disillusioned as a consequence of discerning knowledge that all that is not Brahman is objective and unreal, the Supreme Bliss will result.
Otherwise in the absence of peace of mind, however much an ignorant man may struggle and creep on in the deep abyss of the shastras, he cannot gain Liberation.
Only that mind which by practice of yoga, having lost all its latencies, has become pure and still like a lamp in a dome well protected from breeze, is said to be dead. This death of mind is the highest fulfilment. The final conclusion of all the Vedas is that Liberation is nothing but mind stilled.
Advaita Bodha Deepika - The Lamp of Non-Dual Knowledge
Sublime,
Who is it that says 'I alone am real'?God cannot exist without you.God is nobody without you and you are nobody without God.
ravi,
I am not sure how to respond without offending you, so I will leave this discussion after a few closing remarks I think. You clearly have great faith in sanatana dharma and all its practices and teachings, and I hope you will grow in that faith and overcome any limitations that stand before you.
For my part, I do not find your arguments very convincing, and it only makes me glad that I do not feel obligated to defend things that ought not to be defended. It makes me glad to have been born in the west where despite many spiritual deficiencies I at least have the freedom to make use of those aspects of sanatana dharma that I find beneficial, and leave the rest.
In my own sense for the collective there is no justification for many of the things you try to justify, either in true religion or in the Self, but it is not for me to decide these things or impose my views on others. The Self is universal, and no tradition has exclusive claims on the universal. Each has many gifts to offer mankind, and many sins and errors to repent from. I have made many errors myself and sincerely hope to do better. May we all have the wisdom to see our own faults first, and those of others second.
salutations to all:
(all capitals refer to the deeper sounds of sanskrit)
Z said: So how can 'Being' be happiness?As far as I understand it coming out of 'Being' is Happiness and not Being itself.As you keep coming out of Being the increasing heaviness of 'Not Being' makes you feel that Being was Happiness or Relief.But Being itself nothing can be said about it??Am I right here?
Z - from the meagre understanding i have [btw, all 'understanding' is meagre! hahaha], the 'being' you referred to is not the same when bhagavAn refers to it; in fact, the way bhagavAn or sankarA talk about 'being' is quite alien & incomprehensible to us. all our usage of 'being' is with reference to our sense of a conscious personal identity, and thus 'non-being' as a state of losing or diminishing 'identification' is to be welcomed!
honestly, while we all talk about it, unless & until one is 'self-realised', the "being", as bhagavAn refers to it, is completely unknown. in a way, we don't have the 'right' to talk about what 'that' is :-). hence, the upanishads illustrate the concept of the self (which again is beyond all conception) employing the analogy of 'deep sleep' or 'sushuptI'. as an analogy, its function is limited and is not to be much analysed or researched. its purpose is to say that the undiluted happiness we had in 'dreamless sleep' can also be enjoyed (in a way there is no enjoyer then!) in the 'waking' state (again, if one does, strictly speaking, one is not in any state!), which is the bliss synonymous with realisation. in case you wish to 'understand' it better, you can refer to the 'mAndUkya' (along with the gaudapAda kArikA), one of the most important of upanishads, which explains in great detail the 'avasthAtraya', or the 3 states.
let me also add - any amount of reading will only satisfy partially, and will open up more questions that those it attempted to answer :-). the royal way to get it is, of course, by being in bhagavAn's state that can be done by the vichAra prescribed by bhagavAn.
salutations to all:
to two very wise men of this blog (Broken Yogi and Ravi) :-) - given the geographical, cultural, linguistic, & other differences, it may not be possible for either of you to really get the 'essence' of what the other is saying about their respective belief systems! and this is getting obvious from the long discussions & justifications both of you have been having over the past couple of days. the only point of reference is "bhagavAn", and happily, bhagavAn doesn't give any explicit importance to the glory or decay of 'sanAtana dharma' :-)
the paramAcharya of kAnchi cannot be a valid source in this kind of a debate, especially when Broken Yogi may not be much aware of him; likewise, Broken Yogi could quote other equally legitimate references that may be nearly unknown to Ravi. these discussion lead nowhere, and if at all they do, they only lead as astray from what we primarily ought to be doing (especially talking of religious supremacy is an extremely dangerous, slippery, and absolutely useless terrain!).
this debate may have started in right earnest but it's beginning to take on an 'unhealthy' shade [you may not have noticed it as participants :-)]
a humble suggestion: as after all, it is "truth" that liberates, and NOT the 'path to that truth' :-), pardon me for saying this to 2 wise men - perhaps, both of you should pause and do vichAra, or some other form of sAdhanA (which surely doesn't involve 'talking') - one may comprehend much better the 'truth' of any dharma that way than talk or even quote others on the same! hahahaha
[my apologies to both of you if the above was inappropriate. if it didn't, please don't offer an 'elaborate explanation' to the above, for that will clearly betray a lack of understanding! :-)]
Happy Diwali and Best Wishes to All.
-z
Richie
Apologies for the delay in responding. I had to contact Govind, the man who runs the reforestation project to find out how he channels donations nowadays.
First of all, I should say that the project is thriving and doing great work. It plants about 30,000 trees a year on Arunachala. The one-year survival rate is 60-65%, which is not bad for an area where it doesn't rain for months at a time. The species that are planted are all native South Indian forest trees. The project has also dug fire breaks all over the mountain to prevent fires from spreading, and every summer its staff patrol the hill to make sure that any fires that start do not get out of control.
The project now includes a children's playground and recreational area that is immensely popular with the local children, an education centre and a recently planted arboretum that features 100 examples of all tree species that are native to Arunachala.
I don't think there is enough space here to provide all the donation possibilities, so I will list them in the next post.
Richie (continued)
Govind provided me with the following information this morning:
Two available options for non-Indian citizens or non-resident Indians. One is Earthways in the US, and the other is the Rainforest Information Centre in Australia. Both are through John Seed. Whichever you use, just make sure that you add a covering note or email to say that the donation is for The Forest Way in Thiruvannamalai.
http://rainforestinfo.org.au/
Rainforest Information Centre
PO Box 368, Lismore,
NSW 2480, Australia
http://earthways.org/
EarthWays Foundation
20178 Rockport Way
Malibu, CA 90265
These are tax-deductible to Australian and US residents respectively, but as these organizations are entirely volunteer staffed and do this without charging any administrative fee, they cannot do the paperwork for the tax deduction for donations less $500. They will however receive and pass on donations for any amount.
Indian citizens can give directly to The Forest Way by sending us a check to Arunagiri Children's Park, Opp Govt Arts College, Chengam Rd, Thiruvannamalai 606 603.
Hi S,
Thanks for the reply.Jnani uses words such as 'Bliss' and 'Love' in the strongest degree and also says that is the same as 'Being' as intended in the word 'Sat-chit-Ananda'.
I just was not sure if I understood the state of 'Deep Sleep' or not.Was not sure if the 'Being' in 'Deep Sleep' is the same as the 'Being' of the Turiyatita of a 'Jnani'.If it is the same I do not remember any of that Bliss and flooding love when I wake up from Deep Sleep.
Yes I agree they say Sat-Chit-Ananda is a 'Direct Experience' i.e one does not need a mind to interpret it.But logically speaking if the Self/God can have Bliss without the need of a reflection or a middleman then there never would be the need for creation.Who or what is there in the Jnani that recognizes or knows this 'Bliss' and tells us about it.I think somehow the workings of a Jnani is not better explained. Hopefully more Jnanis in the future will come up with the analysis of the process.
According to 'Nothing Ever Happened' Papaji went on this mission of how the personal I(first cause) arises.I guess in those fraction of moments there is not enough faculties of mind(like memory,intellect) to understand the First Cause or they all arise at the same time. Similarily can we extrapolate that there is still some trace of mind faculties left to record that Bliss experienced by a Jnani?Bhagawan said that the mind of a Jnani is like a burnt rope but Saradamma doesn't agree with this.
Somehow I feel the technical definitions of a Jnani and the workings of Jnani are still badly explained or better said there is not enough information.UG is one who gives the best explainations so far of the workings of a Mind before and after but he does not agree with Bliss or Sat-Chit-Ananda where as all other Jnanis talk of Bliss.So that leaves room for doubt.Papaji was a great hope and he never gave up on this untill a decade or so before his death but unfortunately there is nothing in the public domain of what he came up with.Ibn Arabi is another Jnani who claims he directly copied from a book that was mystically placed infront of him relating to these topics:
http://bewley.virtualave.net/ibnArabi.html
S,I also understand about your point of the futility of these discussions but this is some sort of entertainment for me.Dont you agree.That is what my mind naturally goes after; it's not a conscious decision and so I dont worry about it.Infact all discussions on Truth are some sort of entertainment as they say Truth is transcendental.
I dont get much luck here anyway as there are not many who can answer such questions.
Thanks.Bye.
-z
Broken Yogi,
I understand that written communication has its limitations.I have for long considered both the sides(positive and Negative) of Varna Ashrama Dharma.In the discussion that we have had,I have emphasised the positive side -for the simple reason that this is the one least understood.Despite any limitations that the system may have,I believe its positives far outweigh the Negatives.In the Process,I have made some Objective,Provocative observations-not with a view to run down any Tradition but to examine something that is Central and Fundamental to our discussion-The Possible Role of Varna Ashrama Dharma in The Preservation of Spiritual Truths. Any reference to my personal experiences in the course of discussion is purely incidental, to emphasise the First Hand knowledge of the subject under discussion.Please rest assured that there is no question of my feeling offended on account of anything that may be said here.
I have had the opportunity of visiting the Christian and Islamic Holy places in Syria-the Deir mar takla,the shrine of Saint Elijah,the cathedral of Saint simeone,the Saint Paul Cathedral ,the Omiad mosque in Damascus where the tomb of the daughter of Prophet Muhammed is interned.The Deir mar Takla where it is believed that Mother Mary appeared as a deer in front of a king who tried to hunt it.The deer assumed the form of Holy Mother Mary and disappeared in the place where the present shrine stands.It is a wonderful place ,and the sanctum sanctorum is cave like and dark with a few candles burning and incense wafting-with SILENCE that filled the space.The Shrine of Saint Elijah is also a wonderful one,built over a set of caves where the Saint had Lived and from where it is believed that he ascended to Heaven in a Chariot of Fire.
-----------------------------------
I hope that the discussions were not totally futile but may help to atleast suspect that there may be other perspectives.
wishing you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
s.
"this debate may have started in right earnest but it's beginning to take on an 'unhealthy' shade [you may not have noticed it as participants :-)]"
I have already answered in my post to our friend Broken Yogi.I will only add that had I not been a 'Hindu' and not been a 'Brahmin',it would have helped to avert this feeling!I was all along conscious of this-you may refer my earlier post to hj.
It has been my experience that if we are in Right earnest,such discussions do allow us to re-examine what we would have dismissed earlier.My understanding of the positive side of Varna Ashrama Dharma came in this fashion!
Namaskar.
The gist of the "complete and purposed jumble" he intended he tried to express in an epigraph left in the jumble: "What a wee little part of a person's life are his acts and his words! His real life is led in his head, and is known to none but himself. All day long, and every day, the mill of his brain is grinding, and his thoughts, not those other things, are his history. His acts and his words are merely the visible thin crust of his world . . . The mass of him is hidden — it and its volcanic fires that toss and boil and never rest, night or day. These are his life, and they are not written and cannot be written
Mark Twain
I Am justice: clear, impartial,
favouring no one, hating no one.
but in those who have cured themselves of selfishness,
I shine with brilliance.
(BG)
Dear Ravi, A final comment on this matter.
'The ladies would come in the morning to clean the kitchen and make it ready for the days cooking. When they found Bhagavan there brewing the morning's sambar from the previous days leftovers, they would be deeply distressed, but they would not, of course, dare to admonish him. Bhagavan watched them and waited. Their distress was real and deep for they were risking loss of caste. On the other hand, Bhagavans instructions were clear - no waste of food in the ashram, and the same food for all. It was a tug of war between the wisdom of the Guru and the cultural habits of the followers'.
Later on the kitchen workers did not follow Bhagavans instructions.
'On hearing this Bhagavan told the ladies "call the purifiers and get your kitchen purified. I shall never more enter your kitchen".
A disciple is expected to choose between truth and convention.
Quotes from 'The power of the presence'
hj
I think S. is really funny.
hj,
I have enjoyed many such stories about Sri Bhagavan.I have also had my share of such anecdotes in my Life,where I have taken similiar position.Grandpa was a perfect blend of Orthodoxy and Catholocity-he recommended that I should read the Bible!
In this respect,I have to say that to me,the Sage of Kanchi is the Best Exemplar of this Traditional Wisdom.I totally concur with Chadwick when he says in 'A Sadhu's Reminiscences':
The classic examples of these four Yogas in modern
times are: Jnanam, Sri Ramana Maharshi; Bhakti,
Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa; Yoga, Sri Aurobindo of
Pondicherry; and Karma, Sri Shankaracharya of Kanchi
Peetam, the only one of the above still in the body."
As I have said that Truth embraces opposite view points.Each Sage emphasises one Key Standpoint and none covers the whole of it.Each sage has so to say,a Portfolio!These are needed, for Human Nature is so varied and hence the Need for these various aspects,various forms of Guidance.This is clear to me as a crystal-like Hastamalaka.
There are any number of anecdotes on the Sage of Kanchi,which are quite similar to the Compassion that we find in Sri Bhagavan.Unfortunately,these are not in English and not known widely.
Namaskar.
David,
Thanks for contacting Govind and finding out the donation possibilities apart from the work they're doing. Ideally, I would like to contribute using my credit card because it is just a few clicks on my computer. There seems to be no option for this on the Earthways foundation website. Does Govind have a paypal account that I can transfer money to?
Richie
Go to my site and contact me through the 'contact David Godman' button on the top menus and we can pursue this privately.
Ravi,
Rather than discuss sanatana dharma in the abstract, my interest in this topic is the personal and "collective" level of Sri Ramana's teaching. Clearly Ramana emphasized self-enquiry, and not any particular doctrinal approach or wider cultural bias. However, he did favor an intimate social setting in which to practice self-enquiry, rather than either in isolation or as part of some mass cultural movement.
Ramana seemed to favor the small, intimate circumstance of his ashram and the community of those living nearby over some mass religious viewpoint that would determine how he and his devotees should live with one another. He often spoke of the practice of self-enquiry being best practiced in a "gregarious gathering of friends" rather than in any mass cultural setting.
He accepted the wider cultural features of the world he lived in, and even of those who lived in personal contact with him, but he didn't see those features as being terribly important. He didn't accept caste as something derived from God or the Self, but merely as what the wider cultural tradition upheld. To him, it was entirely dispensible, and was to be superceded by other principles that were far more dear to him when they adversely affected the gathering around him.
One need not argue about the merits and demerits of all the various features of sanatana dharma to see that Sri Ramana had more important things in mind when it comes to the collective. He cared quite a lot about the people around him, their personal welfare, and how they treated one another. He could tolerate caste traditions if these did not overly impinge on the welfare of his devotees or interfere with the ashram's main focus and practical functioning. It's just that his interest in the collective was always at the personal level of human interaction, and not at some abstract level of dogma. He didn't seem to think that the Self actually cared about much of that in any case. And so Ramana didn't either. He cared about whether people were actually putting his teachings into practice, and living together in accord with those teachings.
And that, to him, was what the "collective" was all about. It had little to do with adherence to all kinds of traditional beliefs and practices, and almost entirely to do with knowing and surrendering to the Self in a setting of compassionate relationship to one another.
cont.
Ravi cont,
The Self to him was not some abstract dogma or tradition or principle, but a living presence within which all human activity occurred. The important thing about human activity to him is that it be consciously surrendered to this living presence of the Self, rather than made an end in itself. So long as that was done, he didn't care whether one lived in a Hindu or Christian or Muslim or modern western secular culture, or whether one obeyed this or that traditional precept or practice. The purpose of the collective as far as he was concerned was simply to serve this presence of the Self in all of us, to make it more conscious in us, to make us more aware of the Self, and to live in accord with the Self. To him, that even meant avoiding disputes and dogmatic claims that lead to disputes, since they do not serve the Self and only agitate the collective.
On the other hand, he did have a sense of humor and liked to poke fun at times at his devotees' attachment to their various religious and cultural beliefs and practices, including caste. And at times he even made pointed criticism of their attachment to these things, which to him was something to surrender to the Self rather than perpetuate. But as long as devotees got the point that all these matters were of secondary importance and needed to be compromised for the sake of collective harmony, he was happy to let them be an ordinary part of the ashram life. He had bigger fish to fry.
So I'm glad that I have not offended you and hope that you accept my apology for being disputatious with you. These larger philosophical and political matters have their place, but they are entirely secondary to self-enquiry and Ramana's primary teachings, even his teachings about the role of the collective. Ramana's concern was not with the rise and fall of the larger collective in any case, but with the very personal level of one's direct understanding of the Self and how one conducts oneself in direct relationship with others. If that is all handled in accord with his teachings, the larger collective will be served as well.
Dear Ravi, You say, each sage emphasises one key standpoint and none covers the whole of it; also each sage has to say a portfolio.
All your above statements I reject!
Anyway how would you know?
Ramana Maharshi covers all standpoints. He is totally extraordinary! .
Ramana lived the teaching, he was the teaching. Radiating both wisdom and compassion, totally pristine.
You seem to have a smorgasbord going on in your head, tasting everything and being satisfied with none.
hj
Broken Yogi,
I appreciate all that you have said here and this is one reason why I love Sri Bhagavan.Yet the collective that I have talked about is not something abstract.It is to play an active 'Role'in all aspects of social,cultural,political,economical aspects of society.In the vedic times and till recent times,the Sages have played such a Role-Like Vasishta in the Kingdom of Dasaratha,Ramdas in the times of the maratha Sivaji or The Sankaracharya of Kanchi in recent times.Vivekananda during his wandering days in India prior to going to America used to stay in the palaces of kings(as an invited guest)and this way they actively advise the rulers in ways that can benefit people at all levels.
Like Krishna advises Arjuna to Fight-These are hard practical decisions,although it does not matter to Sri Krishna one bit,it matters to Arjuna and the people at large.
Most political leaders would consult the Sage of Kanchi in times of difficulty-I will just narrate the case of Mahatma Gandhi visiting the Sage of Kanchi(the then Shankaracharya)after a severe crisis when one of the Hindu leaders Swami Shraddhananda was assasinated by a Muslim.Gandhi was completely shattered and had sought audience with the Sage.He told the sage that despite his best efforts to reconcile the differences between the Hindus and the Muslims such things are taking place and in this particular case,he was almost hinting that the responsibility rested with the Muslims.The Sage corrected him saying that just because the assasinator happened to be a Muslim,it is wrong to put the Responsibility on the Muslims.He added,"Suppose a Hindu assasinates you,would the blame be shifted to the Hindus!". This proved prophetic but this is not the point of our discussion.Mahatma Gandhi saw what the Sage was pointing out and felt rejuvenated and regained clarity to continue his political struggle.Likewise many other leaders used to meet the sage from time to time and benefitted from the advice given-this in turn benefitted the society at large.
In many cases it may involve getting into the thick of things-like how the temples have to be governed;in short a thousand things that the society needs to be advised in a Practical way.Not all of them are seekers of Truth,and yet they trusted the wisdom of sages and tried to abide by the advice.There have been occassions when the advice was not abided by and they got into trouble as well.Like in the 80s when Indira Gandhi declared a state of Emergency,she as a Prime Minister of India tried to seek audience with the Sage of Kanchi,who just maintained silence and did not speak a word.She had to wait and ultimately go back.After her government fell,she could visit the Sage and seek audience.
All this is not abstract but are part and parcel of the web of Life.Yes,unless one is a man of Jnana such advice will not be effective and may be dangerous.
The Sages have all along played such roles throughout the history of this land.
Sri Bhagavan did not play this Role-this in no way diminishes what he is.
hj,
I respect your views.I have nothing more to add.
Namaskar.
The power of a devotee’s love compels a Guru to give grace here and now, in this life. If the love is really there, there will be no need to postpone it till a later life. It will happen instantly.
Papaji
Wonderful photos! Sun streaming down on Ramana walking towards steps to Skanda Ashram.
Great picture of Annamalai Swami and Chadwick. It's good to see new photos surfacing.
Ravi,
I follow politics, but I do think it is almost entirely abstract, in that it involves people almost none of us know personally. Because we don't see the world as a series of intimate relationships, we form abstract ideas about politics, religion, and philosophy. These abstractions are inherently deluding, because they take away the personal dimension and substitute an ideational notion. This allows people to go terrible things to one another that they might never do if they were personally related to one another.
So I take Sri Ramana's life and example as a simple teaching that we should never abstract one another, and simply relate to one another as our very Self. As Jesus recommended. This will solve most of our political strife, by first making us aware that all of the collective is personal and human, every bit as much so as our own circle of friends and family. By treating the collective in that fashion, the collective is healed. But most of what it has to be healed from is this abstracted mindset that allows people to act as if the collective is an abstraction, a "thing", and that the people in it are somehow "others".
There's certainly a place for advising kings and those in power, but the most important thing to tell them is that they are no different from anyone else. Ramana instructed by treating all equally, and if anyone in power had approached him, that is what they would be shown, and that is the advice they would get, even in silence. Treat all as your equal, as your brothers and sisters. Did Vivekananda say anything different?
When we abstract people and place them in groups, in castes, in categories of pure and impure, we have destroyed and divided the very presence that is Divine Self amongst us. We have hurt ourselves as much as we have hurt others. We live in an illusion then. And that illusion is only broken when we stop abstracting others and accept them as part of our very Self, as Sri Ramana did. His demonstration of how to live is applicable at every level of society, and to every individual in it regardless of their position or power. If those in power really want advice, they should look to Ramana's example, and implement it in their own sphere of responsibility. And then you will see the world change for the better. But if even the most well-meaning abstractions and dogmas are made the guiding principles of the collective, then trouble will always follow. That is merely being realistic.
Broken Yogi,
Your entire viewpoint is from the ideal Sadhaka's perspective.I have pitched it from a pragmatic perspective.If the ideal perspective was so comprehensive,the Bhagavad Gita will be irrelevant.At every point,Life poses challenges which have to be met with whatever light that one has at one's disposal.Often,this knowledge comes out croppers,as happened in the case of Arjuna where all his knowledge and past experience totally failed him.It was a total crisis and although Sri Krishna covered the entire gamut of all spiritual Truths,Arjuna was interested in what he Needs to do.He did not bother about the ultimate Truth;he just had faith in Sri Krishna and was totally convinced about the Immediate few steps to be taken-Not that he knew the Self and learnt to view everyone as Self.Infact it was his 'relationship' to Great ones like Bhishma and Dronacharya,his guru that set him on the Backfoot!
Likewise the vast majority require some form of guidance to carry on with their day to day activities-Differences will always exist in this world-If it is not caste,it will be some other thing-like the Strong and the Weak,the Rich and the poor,The White and the Dark,etc-It is not the 'Fact' that creates the problem,it is the perception of what the Fact means that is the source of Problem.-For example,A Rich man may be unhappy as compared to a poor man.As long as these differences are made to serve a common Goal-the Peaceful coexistence and mutual respect-this is what is to be aimed at.Here we have to consider what varna Ashrama Dharma had to offer.This is a little difficult to understand because we may not be familiar as to how a poor person can be contented!One example we have is Sri Bhagavan.It is difficult to understand how a person of 'Low Caste' can be contented and not feel that he is 'inferior'-How instead of feeling 'Inferior' he may feel absolute 'Humility' and thus is actually at a Great advantage as compared to say a 'Haughty' upper caste Brahmin-A Classic example is Nanda,the pariah Saint(one of my hot favourites!).
If we look at the Varna Ashram Dharma from a 'Worldly' point of view ,it is only natural to feel 'appaled'.If on the other hand if we realize that it is the work of the Sages of Wisdom over the years,and has the spiritual foundation,we immediately can see how it marries the Pragmatic and Ideal Standpoints in a splendid manner.This is one of the Key factors in the sustenance of Spiritual verity in this country of Bharat(India).In saying this,I have detached myself from where I come from and am viewing this as a neutral observer.
More Later.
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi,
Varna ashrama Dharma is founded on spiritual Truth and not something based on arbitrary Dogma.
It is based on the Law of Karma-that what one is is based on the past.Now this again is not an easy thing to understand or prove and sounds like fatalism!
The Key strength of Varna Ashrama Dharma is that it puts each and every individual into right relationship with himself(herself!)and to what he has to be doing.This certainly is a minimalist design from a worldly perspective,but maximises the gains in the Spiritual dimension.
Today,we find a vast majority feel that they are stuck in the wrong place or profession and most of the Energy is dissipated in getting that straightened,which may not yield the desired results!Men start to live lives of Quiet desperation,as Thoreau so aptly put-They tend to offset it by someother thing ,one of which is the so called 'Spiritual Search'!
Just imagine for a moment that what you need to do in this world is crystal clear,however insignificant that be-and you also keep the Long term goal of Spiritual Realization(for the average person-For the seeker,it may be the immediate Goal-So he relinquishes worldly life and chooses to be a Sanyasi-and all his material needs are taken care of by the society!).All these different varnas and Ashramas are governed not by a SINGLE SET of rules but role specific guidelines.This is what Varna Ashrama Dharma so beautifully accomplished.This is to be viewed from the perspective that the Worldly Life is not an end in itself but a passage to something much more central and fundamental.It is like any train or Air Flight where the passengers are headed for a destination-Certainly there are classes and associated Privileges(in V A Dharma there are Duties!),differences,but as long as it is clearly understood what one can afford,it hardly matters as long as we are headed for the same destination.On the other hand,if we start quarelling about who should sit where and why one cannot get the window seat or the aisle seat,the Flight remains grounded and may perhaps get cancelled.
More later.
Namaskar.
David, Are you joining forces with Ram and Premananda in some sort of joint venture?
I maybe wrong but I find it hard to believe.
No I am not planning any kind of joint venture with either of them.
Many years ago I was interviewed by Premananda when he was still called John David. I said he could publish a transcript of what I said for devotees in Australia. The idea was that it would be an accompaniment to the filmed interview. He then interviewed Ram who gave, in my opinion, an appalling critique of the text of 'Who am I?' Premananda wanted to publish it alongside my own interview, but I refused, saying that I didn't want anything I said to appear in a book in which Bhagavan's ideas were openly criticised.
For several years Premananda asked for permission to print the two items together, and each year I told him 'no'. Then last year he gave up asking and went ahead and published both interviews together in one book, without permission.
I want to disassociate myself from Premananda and everything he does. I regret having given him an interview and want nothing more to do with him or his activities.
Ravi,
If we are to speak of spiritual truth, Sri Ramana makes it clear that the spiritual truth is that we are all equal in the eyes of God and jnana, and should be treated accordingly.
There is no true spiritual difference between the castes, or those of different religions. There are mature and immature people in all castes, religions, collectives, any way you slice it. And each has their particular qualities and karmas to contend with. Likewise, each has their duty to perform, but it is no one's duty to take a position of spiritual or moral inferiority to anyone else, because no such thing exists.
There are practical distinctions in our abilities and qualities, but these are not determined by caste or religion, and it is not the purpose of religion to enforce such distinctions and give some positions of privilege and others positions of servitude by social convention and heredity.
Those who are born into harsh and lowly circumstances are in no way inferior to those born into lofty and privileged circumstances. Sri Ramana never made distinctions among his devotees based on such notions, even if they did. He lived outside the ashrama system, and outside the caste system, and he did not recognize it as having any foundation in spiritual truth. Nor do I. Those who defend it by making such claims have much to answer for, but thankfully Sri Ramana has made clear to all where the Self stands in these matters, and advocates that we all relate to one another as equals in the Self's presence.
That is what it means to accept one another as we are. One must go beyond appearances and custom, and see the Self in one another. This dissolves most of the delusions that pervade human culture and divide us from one another. The greatest spiritual lights of our time, such as Vivekananda and Sri Ramana, understood this and worked in their own way to bring humanity together, not to divide it. They both could see they were working with people long accustomed to believing in the spiritual basis for these divisions, and they have tried to enlighten them about this, but it is clearly a long process. Equality is a difficult reality to accept for those accustomed to divisive concepts. But because it is reality, and not an ideal, it will most certainly prevail.
Broken Yogi,
I will refer you to this article on Varnashrama Dharma-This gives a basic idea,although the subtle nuances have to be gained by Increased familiarity through direct interactions only.Please refer the article here:
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Varna_Ashrama_Dharma
please also go through the other Article,Theory of Varna:
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Theory_of_Varna
Three factors determine the varna-Temperament,Heredity and Vocation.The other Key thing is that there can be mobility among the Varnas-Like Viswamitra moved from being a Kshatriya to a Brahmin.
There is no question of Superiority or Inferiority among the varnas.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Hi All,
I have a Q. Is there any difference between "awareness" and "consciousness" that we come across in the spiritual books? If yes, whats the difference? This is w.r.t. enquiry - as in, the existence that we feel, is it consciousness or awareness or both or neither... it probably doesnt matter what name we give it, but i just got curious.
Broken Yogi,
I have referred you a couple of articles on varna Ashrama Dharma with a view to get to a common ground from where we can then discuss.At the moment,I find that our discussion is going along parallel lines.This is on account of some misconceptions that you seem to have regaring Privileges,inequalities,etc among the castes.No one denies that the fundamental Truth is the Spirit that is manifesting as not just Humans but as Animals,plants,and other Living things as well as the so called inanimate matter.
Irrespective of whatever caste that one may belong to,one has the same opportunity to manifest this potential but one does it by following what is inherently easy and natural(Dharma)to his Nature.It is this so called 'Nature' in terms of Predelictions and Heredity that governs the caste.
The different Rules and Protocols are in accordance with the predelictions and Vocation that each pursue.For Instance,The Brahmin is not supposed to eat Non Vegetarian Food(This may lead to another debate!)and has to often fast on many occassions-He is required to follow all this so that he becomes a Fit instrument to chant the Vedic Mantras that benefit the whole of Humanity.The Sudra on the other hand has to work in the fields and grow crops to feed all.On account of his Physical toil and the energy that he needs,he is allowed to eat anything and no fasting is called for.It does not mean that all Sudras HAVE to eat meat,etc.WE know how Nanda The pariah saint eschewed eating meat,did sadhana in his own way and attained the Lord Nataraja.
No inequality is there but certainly differences in temperament is understood and Life organized along multiple smaller groups,each having their own portfolio and associated set of Rules and Regulations,and all having equal opportunities for spiritual growth.This is simply a Brilliant idea,which was in vogue for thousands of Years-The Results of this can be easily appreciated.
More Later.
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi,
It will be easier to appreciate the Varna Ashrama Dharma by taking an anology of the Groups with a Classical Music Orchestra-We have the String Section and Within the String Section We have the First Violins,The Second Violins,The Violas,The Cellos and The Double Basses.We then Have the Woodwinds with the Piccolo,the Flute,the Oboe,the Clarinet and the Bassoon.We also have the Brass section with the Trumpets,Tubas and the Trombones.Each Group has its colour and personality within the Group(Inter group)and outside(Intragroup)and all perform together and all are equally important.Some like the Violins have more prominence,the First violinist being called the concert master.
Each have their notes assigned and the conductor has to extract the cooperation of the entire group to bring out the Music.
It is not a question of a few Brilliant individual musicians coming together-often this has proved to be a fiasco-It is a question of how each musician learns to discipline himself(herself)to be part of the Orchestra.Sure enough ,given an opportunity he can show his individual brilliance through a Cadenza,but only as is permitted by the composer.
The Individual musicians also have the liberty to give solo performances depending on their stature-We have the violin Sonatas(with piano accompaniment),the Piano sonatas(for the Piano can have an orchestral palette),or the Flute solo pieces,etc.One needs to have both the Solo and Orchestral performance to cover the entire gammut of Music.One cannot complain that the Basson player should be paid high as he is using his Lung power while the violin player just bows to get the music across(Actually the Violinist requires good Pranayama techniques to bring the disciplined tone)or that Violin Groups are getting more prominence over the other groups etc-We may say that the string players are the Brahmins,The Brasses are the Kshatriyas,the Wood winds are the Vaisyas and perhaps the Bassoon is the Sudra-The anology definitely falls short but if you refer to what the bassoon is doing in the Beethoven Pastoral symphony,playing the same notes at regular intervals,it just gives an idea.
You also have the Bassoon coming into its own in a soaring fashion in Mozart's bassoon concerto-So anyone has the inherent potential to become a Saint or a Sage.
The Varna Ashrama Dharma is a Spiritual orchestral arrangement to bring out the HARMONY aspect of the spiritual Truths.The MELODY element is undoubtedly there but part of the Harmonic score.
Namaskar.
This question, Maneesha, ist nicely answered in I am That by Nisargadatta:
Q: You use the words 'aware' and 'conscious'. Are they not the same?
M: Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience.
Q: How does one go beyond consciousness into awareness?
M: Since it is awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore the very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at once recognised as the original, basic existence, which is life itself, and also love and joy.
Today is Annamalai Swami day. A ripe devotee of Ramana Maharshi.
His story is amazing and inspirational.
Ravi,
I am sorry to continue to disagree with you, but it is not from a lack of understanding of the ideals of the varna system. It is from knowing of the reality of how this has worked out in life rather than in books and lectures, the massive injustice, exploitation, oppression, corruption and violence this has wrought on so many millions of people.
I suppose there are some people in America who still believe in the ideals of the ante-bellum plantation farms of the South and how wonderful the system of slavery was, when all knew their place and worked together for the sake of harmony and Jesus, and each accepted their allotted role in the great orchestra of the slave economy. However, not everyone found the music to their liking, and I gather the same has been the case in India. Of course, the Bible was often quoted in support of this system, and yet some renegades had the audacity to suggest that it was somehow ungodly to allow such a system to be perpetuated. I gather that "dissidents" of similar nature have even sprouted up in India over the years, even Vivekananda among them. How foolish of them not to see that this is how God intended us all to fit into his plan.
People often resort to ideals to cover up the crimes they have no other way to justify. And many crimes have been committed in the name of religion with the highest ideals invoked to rationalize their violence and injustice. The caste system is one of those ungoing crimes against humanity. If God is directing this ongoing criminal activity, then he too has much to answer for. But somehow I think he is not on the side of the criminals, as much as they tend to invoke his name and hide behind his image. Men create these divisions and put other men in positions of subservience, not God. The circular argument that the caste system is not a crime, because God has ordained it thus to create a harmony among men, is utterly illogical and belied by the fact that it has not created harmony, but much unnecessary misery and dissension and deep injustices that have held India back, both spiritually and materially, for many centuries. To deny this is choose an ideal in the mind over the reality of the collective.
Nisargadattas use of the word "consciousness" can be confusing to those familiar with traditional Advaitic terminology, where Sankara for example uses "consciousness" to describe the primordial nature of living being.
Nisargadatta's use of the term seems more in line with the Buddhist usage, which sees consciousness as an attribute of the bodily person that is the conditional product of one's desiring.
Nisargadatta seems to use the word "consciousness" to describe the state of mind that emerges when the mind is operating in the mode of "attention", which means object-consciousness rather than prior, object-free consciousness. What we ordinarily call "consciousness" is this state of mind that is driven by attention to objects and is not free or prior to objects. At least that is how Nisargadatta seems to use the term. Whereas in Advaita, the term "consciousness" is generally used to describe the primal nature of consciousness, not the object-directed mind we commonly experience. Instead, Nisargadatta refers to the primal nature of mind as "awareness", and directs us to examine our own awareness, putting aside object-oriented consciousness and examining the deeper nature of the mind that is "beyond consciousness". This is often confusing to those more familiar with the arguments and terminology of Sankara's Advaita. But it is merely a difference in language, and not in meaning.
I am a Hindu non-brahmin and born and living in Tamil Nadu state of India. In our Tamil Nadu, down South, there is always tension between higher castes (not Brahmins) and lower castes in many areas and consequent violence few times. Also, political parties these days just like the British rule in the past exploit them for their own political gains similar to creating differences and tensions between different religions.
This caste system that came into existence several centuries ago was doing good to the society with the aim of realizing God/Self, but gradually the objective was forgotten just like religions forgetting their primary purpose and fighting with each other.
Right from the British rule, Brahmins who are supposed to live a life based on Vedas and Shastras have degraded to selfish living these days. They no longer cannot be called Brahmins by the definition of Vedas and shastras. Other castes as well as muslims and christians started following their selfish way of living and politicians are exploiting this kind of situation and the concept of reservation for education and jobs have come.
The top Two dominating national political parties of India are dominated by Brahmins and most of them live corrupt and immoral life.
Only a minority of Brahmins live a life according to Vedas and Shastras.
If majority of Brahmins itself don't follow the ancient system, how the rest of the castes/population will follow it.
But things like Temples, Worship of Deities, Saints, Jnanis, Music, Dance, Yoga, Meditation, Ayurveda, Pilgrimages, Philosophies, and other great things which are good to everyone will continued to be accepted by all Hindus.
But I think castes will remain in India as politicians want them for their electoral victories.
TC.
Broken Yogi,
"It is from knowing of the reality of how this has worked out in life rather than in books and lectures, the massive injustice, exploitation, oppression, corruption and violence this has wrought on so many millions of people."
Wonder how you came to this conclusion.
If what you say is true,this land would not have produced the endless procession of Great Sages and Saints over the centuries and right into present times.
Each one has a Right to his belief,and I respect it.
Namaskar.
I think I agree with Broken Yogi. 'Coz, the chit part of sat-chit-ananda, which they say is That State, has been translated most of the times as consciousness. While Nisargadatta Maharaj seems to have interchanged the words... The difference in these words now seem all the more trivial. Thanks, Clemens and Broken Yogi!
I don't know enough about the "caste system", or it's relation to the varna, to make an informed statement or judgement, whether it is similar to the oppression in the antebellum South. My guess is that it is nothing like the Antebellum South oppression, where people with dark skin were treated like beasts of burden. Can you back up your judgements Broken Yogi, or are they just your own stereotypes "heard" about India? From what I understand, no one oppressed Indians more than the British, so maybe we should look to ourselves and not be getting outraged about what is happening elsewhere? the main negative things I heard about the caste system as a child, came out in similar discussions to when relatives were telling me Iranians don't value human life the way we do, I'm just a little skeptical. Obviously oppression has probably taken place in the name of the caste system, but is it analogous to Antebellum South oppression, I'm skeptical. It's important to know, and be able to back up what you are talking about.
Ravi,
"If what you say is true,this land would not have produced the endless procession of Great Sages and Saints over the centuries and right into present times."
The nature of duality is that opposites exist side by side. India has many exagerated dualities to it, the greatest and the worst, all living together and creating endless contradictions. The best of India does not excuse the worst, and the worst does not negate the best. In fact, it is India's extreme dualisms which have perhaps led the wisest among them to consider non-dualism and to seek a higher and transcendent reality.
So that is how, I think, India has produced so many great souls throughout its history, such as Sri Ramana.
The notion that only a pure and uncorrupted country could produce pure and uncorrupted sages is a false one. As the anon poster mentions below, there is certainly much corruption and violence in the caste system in the last century, and yet some of the greatest sages have appeared during this time also. One cannot say the one produces the other, or the one negates the other. As with the story of the Buddha, the contrast these opposites produce is one of the primary motivators towards enlightenment. To see that even the highest ideals of religion can produce such misery and corruption helps lead us beyond mere idealistic dualism and to an inspection of the reality prior to dualism. Such an inspection leads to the renunciation even of religion's cherished divisions and delusions.
India is and always has been a great country and a great culture, in spite of its many and deep divisions and problems. I have come to these conclusions merely from reading the history and news of India. It's very much out there in the open. Who could pretend otherwise? Religion must progress from a cultural mode of controlling the masses through division to one of freeing the masses through liberating wisdom. The example and teachings of Sri Ramana, like those of Vivekananda and many other modern sages, are insightful guides in how to do this, if we observe them and practice them as they did.
Friends, One of the few words spoken in English by the Maharshi were directed to the Danish devotee Alfred Sorenson (Sunyata) Ramana said to Sunyata "We are always aware". Sunyata a ripe disciple understood the import of the message.
Broken Yogi, Sangarakshita (Lingwood) was in India in the late 1940's. He wrote a wonderful book "The thousand petalled lotus" The dalits were totally depressed, not daring to look anyone in the eye. They were not allowed to have Sanskrit names, so instead they had names of wild birds and creatures of the forest.
I know the situation has now improved but there are still large pockets of discrimination.
hj
Tc/Friends,
"Only a minority of Brahmins live a life according to Vedas and Shastras.
If majority of Brahmins itself don't follow the ancient system, how the rest of the castes/population will follow it."
This is hitting the Bull's Eye.The Brahmin is the one who is expected to set the example to the rest through his single minded adherence to Dharma and spiritual pursuit.The word comes from "Brahman"(Supreme Truth)+"ANan"(The one Near)+Brahmanan(The one who lives near Brahman or dwells in Brahman);In Tamil,he is also called "anDhanan",which is a combination of "Antham"(the End)+"aNan"(Near)-The one who is near the Goal;He is near the goal by exclusive practice of the Dharma and also ensuring that he sets an example to all the others through his example of spartan Living and adherence to Dharma.He is also required to advise and serve others.
The Great Sage Tiruvalluvar clearly recognized the Responsibility that is invested in the Brahmins and has beautifully defined a few couplets:
1.He is a Brahmin who is Dharmic,
For he sets the Right example to all Living Beings and Practices what he preaches.(It is actually stated in a more terse manner,but I have given it a little more expanded translation to get at the meaning)
2.A Brahmin may redeem himself even if he forgets to chant the Vedas;yet if he loses his Character,there is no redemption.
The only reason why I have taken up this topic is that Vedic Dharma is Precious(Forget whether the caste System is advantageous or not)-and the responsibility squarely rests with the Brahmin.This treasure of Vedic Dharma will be lost to the world if it not tended to by the ones who were invested with that responsibility,and in its place we will have only personality cults-The Future generations will have to attach themselves to whatever prevails at that moment,and have no means of orienting themselves to something akin to the Pole Star.
The Glorious and majestic sound of the Vedic seers will be lost to the world and will become museum pieces,much admired but having little value for day to day living.
This is the spirit behind the inspirational life of the Sage of Kanchi.
-----------------------------------
I am amused at some of the comments here.I was reminded of one typical Sri Ramakrishna's story:
A Man said to his friend "I was walking down that lane yesterday when I heard a Deafening crash;I found that a house had collapsed".
"Wait a minute",interrupted his friend and looked up the newspaper-"I am afraid that it is not true;it is not reported in the newspaper"
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Discover the reason why
So tiny human midget
Exists at all
So scared unwise.
But expect nothing. Live frugally
On surprise.
GE
Friends,
Any system is only as good as the adherents who practice it.In india till recent times,we had the joint family system;this had a lot of advantages.It also had a few stories where the daughter-in-law was oppressed.Incidentally,the same daughter-in -law also would have become a mother-in-law at a later point in time.
There was a time when the joint family system actually was a complete village,where the good and bad of everyone was a collective responsibility.
This defintely had its advantages,but gradually gave way to single joint families,and now to nuclear familes and right now to the sorry status,where the Husband lives in one part of the country ,the wife in another part-and the children left to grow in a careless environment.It has further degenerated into a living together arrangement with no bindings and encumbrances;children if born are incidental and have to be provided for materially .
A secure family environment is essential for healthy growth and imbibing of spiritual values.It is not the philosophy that counts,it is exemplars who can inspire that counts.
I was fortunate to have lived in a joint family and had the benefit of close interaction with Grandpa-In Tamil,the Grandson is called 'peyaran' -meaning the one who carries the Name(of the Grandpa or the Grandma)-It is customary to christen a newborn child after the name of Grandparents-this will be an alias and the actual name may be someother one.
-----------------------------------
I have said the above for this reason-that in the name of freedom,we have done away with much that is invaluable and indispensable.True,there is always a compromise in the joint family system,yet the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
In much the same way,the caste system was cemented together by a family feeling;Differences are bound to exist as are inevitable and yet the advantages were tremendous.In dispensing with what was existing,we have not been able to find anything better to put in its place-except suggesting that each one should take care of himself and all will be well with the world.
Just like the confusion that it has created at an individual family level,this will not be any different at the collective spiritual level.
-----------------------------------
This is where the Sage of kanchi pointing out to what Sri Sankara had said before he set aside his mortal coils-"Vedo Nityamadheeyatham"-Chant and study the vedas daily.This chanting is important for the welfare of Humanity(not just the Hindus).For this to be effective,a disciplined life has to be lived by the chanters.The Sage said that even if a few get inspired,this is all that is required and whatever has been on the wane can still be retrieved.He put the Onus squarely on the Brahmins-as the Sage Tiruvalluvar had done.
Sri Bhagavan also clearly said that others can study the Vedas but the chanting has to be done by the ones who are the specialists(Brahmins).There is no status symbol in this-It is just that the Clear Pronunciation and intonation are paramount to the efficacy of the Mantras.
-----------------------------------Namaskar.
Maneesha,
Without going into technical details ,we may say that many a time we are conscious of what is happening-it is pleasnt or unpleasant,good or bad etc,but not all the time we are aware of what is happening.To be aware is not just be conscious,but to understand deeply;let what happens show its face and to be able to see it as it is.
It is the difference between Avastha(State of consciousness)and Bodha(Awareness).
Namaskar.
My comment about slavery in the south was not meant to suggest equivalency to the caste system. I was simply remarking on how all kinds of social evils, including slavery and caste, are easily justified as being ordained by God and seen by the privileged as a source of social harmony when each "knows their place". Many racists considered blacks in America to be fit only for menial and slave labor, that this was their place in our social order, and there is virtually the same mentality in India regarding Dalits and other untouchables and lower castes. That alone is an evil and oppressive attitude that leads to terrible crimes against whole classes of people.
I do not know which is worse, slavery or caste, though by sheer numbers there are far more Dalits in India than there were slaves in the South, and many of them have lived and been treated as virtual slaves in any case.
I don't actually think the British were more oppressive in India than Indians have been oppressive to the lower castes, but they certainly exploited India's caste system to keep Indians divided amongst themselves and to make the upper castes complicit in British rule. Without the upper castes' cooperation with the British, I don't think the occupation could have lasted nearly as long as it did.
If you want documentation about the many evils of the caste system, you just need to do a few easy google searches. A lot of literature is out there if you are interested enough to look for it. This is not the place for me to provide it for you. Much death and poverty and exploitation is due to the caste system, and I'm sure those who are informed on such matters here know about it already. If not, they ought to educate themselves.
This is not merely a symbolic issue. Like slavery, it is a real social evil that has persisted well into the modern era. There are actually more slaves in the world now than there have ever been, and some of them are in India, a result in part of the caste system.
"I don't actually think the British were more oppressive in India than Indians have been oppressive to the lower castes, but they certainly exploited India's caste system to keep Indians divided amongst themselves and to make the upper castes complicit in British rule."
It reminds me of how Ramana said that India is in the same place as America, in one's mind. You are actually equating what you "think" with what India is, and it's history. i.e cite your statements, as in I read this in this book, rather than just giving your opinion as fact. They are not the same thing. Just stating your opinion is flimsy argument.
Ramana’s teaching through the lens of Advaita they will be seen to be in perfect accordance with the essence of Advaita’s philosophical teachings.
Was Ramana Maharshi just a strict non dualist? You can't just put a label on him and say (if the cap fits) You can't just paint him into a cornor and say thats it!
Dive deep within and find out the truth.
Friends,
How many newspapers,magazines and visual media cover the good that is there in the world?Ill news travel apace and this is what is lapped up eagerly by the sensation loving public.This is not to undermine the good work they do by bringing injustice to Light and bring public awareness to address the issues.
Yet how little of the Good is reported!Over the last few years,a number of neighbourhood weekly newspapers have comeup and these seem to be doing much better by introducing the Good deeds and positive achievements of the People in the neighbourhood.These are circulated free and the expenses are covered through advts.
When I first visited Syria in 2004,people back home were anxious to know what it would be like.I had been to Newyork,Washington,Toronto but I will definitely say that no place is safer than Syria for the common man.A lady can walk alone in a deserted street at 12 midnight.Yet the mass propaganda was very much against this country with truly simple and friendly people.The common man there enjoys as much freedom as we find in India.The only thing is that they can only vote for or against one 'President'-and they are expected to vote 'For'!Otherwise,a wonderful country with friendly people.
I had the opportunity to stay for over a year and visited almost all parts of the country.Truly wonderful people with Great hospitality.
-----------------------------------The same is true of India.When Swami Vivekananda first visited America,he had to face questions like-when Christians would ask him if the Hindu mothers threw their baby girls to the crocodiles: "Yes," he replied on one occasion, "and nowadays all the babies are born to men."
Swamiji was a multisided personality and was as much respecter of the past as he was against any limitations that it might have had.If we read his talk 'My Master' we will find both these aspects.To latch onto one and completely ignore the other is erroneous.
Those interested may read Vivekananda,the paradoxical Prophet:
http://www.vedanta-atlanta.org/articles/vivekananda/paradox2.html
Namaskar.
Of course Brahmins will hang onto their privileged position in society, it's only human nature to do so.
Still it irks me that Ravi keeps pontificating and quoting this and that to justify the caste system.
What about decency. What about compassion? Stop being an apologist
for a cruel system that long outlived its original purpose.
LMM,
I have no desire to get into an historical debate with you. That would be going off-topic. I think the various crimes of the caste system should be obvious to anyone knowledgable of India. And do you know how I am certain that this isn't just in my mind? Because the government of India actually outlaws "untouchability" and caste discrimination. It's literally a crime, and treated as such. Doesn't mean it isn't still pervasive, but it does mean that Indians themselves came to the conclusion that there's been a serious criminal aspect to the caste system. So I must not just be making stuff up.
It's also not disputable that the British enlisted the higher castes in adminstering the state of colonial India, capitalizing on the divisions the caste system had created to rule such a huge empire from a small island thousands of miles away. The British probably even made the situation worse, with the help of the upper castes. Which is one reason there was a strong movement to eliminate caste discrimination after Independence.
Now, judging which mass social crimes are morally worse - Indian caste, or American slavery - is a subjective matter I have no desire to explore here. They are each bad enough to put to shame those who try to defend them on religious grounds. But if you wish to do that, go right ahead.
If you feel the desire to study up on this subject, please, you are welcome to do just that. I doubt anyone who knows much of the actual history here would dispute me on the basic facts, even if, like Ravi, they defend the varna system or claim that the benefits of the caste system justify its detriments.
So I won't make a list of cites for you to check up on. As I said, google is your friend. My opinions are always only my opinions. You are free to differ with them as much as you like. Do a little reading, and then tell me where I am just making things up. I would be happy to be corrected.
Certainly we cannot have a misunderstanding of the original sense of social strata when we see it like the Gita says:
4-13. The fourfold caste has been created by me according to the distribution of energies and actions (CVR: not related to birth, race etc.); though I am the author thereof, know Me as non-agent and immutable.
Here, in instalments, is the final chapter of the Dhammapada. It covers the topic of who is and who is not a brahmin:
Chapter XXVI
The Brahmana
383. Stop the stream valiantly, drive away the desires, O Brahmana!
When you have understood the destruction of all that was made, you
will understand that which was not made.
384. If the Brahmana has reached the other shore in both laws (in
restraint and contemplation), all bonds vanish from him who has
obtained knowledge.
385. He for whom there is neither this nor that shore, nor both, him,
the fearless and unshackled, I call indeed a Brahmana.
386. He who is thoughtful, blameless, settled, dutiful, without
passions, and who has attained the highest end, him I call indeed a
Brahmana.
387. The sun is bright by day, the moon shines by night, the warrior
is bright in his armour, the Brahmana is bright in his meditation; but
Buddha, the Awakened, is bright with splendour day and night.
388. Because a man is rid of evil, therefore he is called Brahmana;
because he walks quietly, therefore he is called Samana; because he
has sent away his own impurities, therefore he is called Pravragita
(Pabbagita, a pilgrim).
389. No one should attack a Brahmana, but no Brahmana (if attacked)
should let himself fly at his aggressor! Woe to him who strikes a
Brahmana, more woe to him who flies at his aggressor!
390. It advantages a Brahmana not a little if he holds his mind back
from the pleasures of life; when all wish to injure has vanished, pain
will cease.
391. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who does not offend by body, word,
or thought, and is controlled on these three points.
(continued)
392. After a man has once understood the law as taught by the Well-awakened (Buddha), let him worship it carefully, as the Brahmana worships the sacrificial fire.
393. A man does not become a Brahmana by his platted hair, by his family, or by birth; in whom there is truth and righteousness, he is blessed, he is a Brahmana.
394. What is the use of platted hair, O fool! what of the raiment of goat-skins? Within thee there is ravening, but the outside thou
makest clean.
395. The man who wears dirty raiments, who is emaciated and covered with veins, who lives alone in the forest, and meditates, him I call indeed a Brahmana.
396. I do not call a man a Brahmana because of his origin or of his mother. He is indeed arrogant, and he is wealthy: but the poor, who is free from all attachments, him I call indeed a Brahmana.
397. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who has cut all fetters, who never
trembles, is independent and unshackled.
398. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who has cut the strap and the thong, the chain with all that pertains to it, who has burst the bar, and is awakened.
399. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who, though he has committed no
offence, endures reproach, bonds, and stripes, who has endurance for
his force, and strength for his army.
400. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who is free from anger, dutiful,
virtuous, without appetite, who is subdued, and has received his last
body.
401. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who does not cling to pleasures,
like water on a lotus leaf, like a mustard seed on the point of a
needle.
402. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who, even here, knows the end of his suffering, has put down his burden, and is unshackled.
403. Him I call indeed a Brahmana whose knowledge is deep, who
possesses wisdom, who knows the right way and the wrong, and has
attained the highest end.
404. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who keeps aloof both from laymen and from mendicants, who frequents no houses, and has but few desires.
405. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who finds no fault with other
beings, whether feeble or strong, and does not kill nor cause
slaughter.
406. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who is tolerant with the intolerant, mild with fault-finders, and free from passion among the passionate.
407. Him I call indeed a Brahmana from whom anger and hatred, pride
and envy have dropt like a mustard seed from the point of a needle.
408. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who utters true speech, instructive
and free from harshness, so that he offend no one.
409. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who takes nothing in the world that
is not given him, be it long or short, small or large, good or bad.
410. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who fosters no desires for this
world or for the next, has no inclinations, and is unshackled.
411. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who has no interests, and when he
has understood (the truth), does not say How, how? and who has reached
the depth of the Immortal.
412. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who in this world is above good and
evil, above the bondage of both, free from grief from sin, and from
impurity.
413. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who is bright like the moon, pure,
serene, undisturbed, and in whom all gaiety is extinct.
414. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who has traversed this miry road,
the impassable world and its vanity, who has gone through, and reached the other shore, is thoughtful, guileless, free from doubts, free from attachment, and content.
415. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who in this world, leaving all
desires, travels about without a home, and in whom all concupiscence
is extinct.
416. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who, leaving all longings, travels
about without a home, and in whom all covetousness is extinct.
417. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who, after leaving all bondage to
men, has risen above all bondage to the gods, and is free from all and every bondage.
418. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who has left what gives pleasure and what gives pain, who is cold, and free from all germs (of renewed
life), the hero who has conquered all the worlds.
419. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who knows the destruction and the
return of beings everywhere, who is free from bondage, welfaring
(Sugata), and awakened (Buddha).
420. Him I call indeed a Brahmana whose path the gods do not know, nor spirits (Gandharvas), nor men, whose passions are extinct, and who is an Arhat (venerable).
421. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who calls nothing his own, whether
it be before, behind, or between, who is poor, and free from the love
of the world.
422. Him I call indeed a Brahmana, the manly, the noble, the hero, the
great sage, the conqueror, the impassible, the accomplished, the
awakened.
423. Him I call indeed a Brahmana who knows his former abodes, who
sees heaven and hell, has reached the end of births, is perfect in
knowledge, a sage, and whose perfections are all perfect.
Clemens,
I understand the Varna system to be rooted in traditional spiritual sources such as the Gita, wherein these qualities are described, as you quote, in term of energies rather than as fixed social hierarchies or hereditary traits.
But it is very much disputed as to whether the caste system is actually rooted in these texts, or is merely a separate cultural system that has gloamed onto them. The Vedas, for example, have only one reference to any jatis in all their many thousands of verses, and this is thought by many to be a later interpolation and not originally part of the Vedas. So if caste isn't actually found in the Vedas, it isn't really a legitimate part of the sanatana dharma.
I tend to see the varna system as described in ancient texts in a similar light to the three gunas - as a description of the various kinds of human energies that make us up. And just as everyone has all three gunas in them in varying degrees and intensities and qualities, so we all have some aspect of the various varnas in us. This is just common sense, I think.
The genuine varna system is just an attempt to describe the various qualities human beings have, it isn't a prescription for dividing human beings into various exclusive groups. And it is just one such system out there. The world is filled with all kinds of categorical systems which try to describe the various human qualities we share. None of them are anything but dualistic systems for describing the various qualities of life.
However, one could certainly suggest that, just as the guna system includes sattvas as one of its qualities, and points to the highest manifestation of sattvas as being indistinguishable from the jnani, the true Brahmana varna, as described in the quote David provided from the Dhammapada, is also a description of the cultural quality found in the jnani, regardless of what jati he may belong to.
I think it's clear that the caste system is a terrible corruption of the ideas contained in the varna system. Even so, many justify the caste system precisely because it relies upon varna as its alleged spiritual source. And so long as that attribution is made and affirmed by orthodox Hindus, the caste system is on their shoulders, and all its crimes weigh heavily on the sanatana dharma.
The best solution, in my view, is the one Vivekananda proposed, which is to expel the entire caste system from the sanatana tradition and repudiate it fully. Then one can start over with the varna system understood in a fashion similar to the guna system. Not a way to divide people into defined categories, but a way to understand their complexities and help them to find the proper mode of living that suits their health and temperament. As in ayurvedic medicine, for example.
I agree with all that "Broken Yogi" has stated in his comment dated November 11, 2010 4:19 PM because that is the Truth.
TC.
@Broken Yogi
Thank you for your helpful explanations, Broken Yogi. I think it is clear that no social system should limit the people exclusiveley to their bodily existence, isn't it?
friends,
you may like to check these articles by francois gautier:
http://www.francoisgautier.com/En/14.html
Namaskar
An interesting interview by a journalist with Vivekananda in the year 1897 touching the topics of discussion:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_5/Interviews/The_Abroad_And_The_Problems_At_Home
-z
Extract from Wikipedia on Vivekananda :
Contrasting the rapid progress of Japan with the situation back in India, he urged his countrymen - the "offspring of centuries of superstition and tyranny" - to come out of their narrow holes and have a look abroad - "Only I want that numbers of our young men should pay a visit to Japan and China every year. Especially to the Japanese, India is still the dreamland of everything high and good. And you, what are you? … talking twaddle all your lives, vain talkers, what are you? Come, see these people, and then go and hide your faces in shame. A race of dotards, you lose your caste if you come out! Sitting down these hundreds of years with an ever-increasing load of crystallized superstition on your heads, for hundreds of years spending all your energy upon discussing the touchableness of untouchableness of this food or that, with all humanity crushed out of you by the continuous social tyranny of ages – what are you? And what are you doing now? … promenading the sea-shores with books in your hands – repeating undigested stray bits of European brainwork, and the whole soul bent upon getting a thirty rupee clerkship, or at best becoming a lawyer – the height of young India’s ambition – and every student with a whole brood of hungry children cackling at his heels and asking for bread! Is there not water enough in the sea to drown you, books, gowns, university diplomas, and all?"[72]
On his return to India in February 1897, when he was asked by a correspondent from The Hindu, "Is it your wish that India should become like Japan?", Vivekananda's response was unequivocal - "Decidedly not", he said, "India should continue to be what she is. How could India ever become like Japan, or any nation for the matter of that? In each nation, as in music, there is a main note, a central theme, upon which all others turn. Each nation has a theme: everything else is secondary. India's theme is religion. Social reform and everything else are secondary. Therefore India cannot be like Japan. It is said that when 'the heart breaks', then the flow of thought comes. India's heart must break, and the flow of spirituality will come out. India is India. We are not like the Japanese, we are Hindus. India's very atmosphere is soothing. I have been working incessantly here, and amidst this work I am getting rest. It is only from spiritual work that we can get rest in India. If your work is material here, you die of — diabetes!"[73]
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Friends,
Armchair travelogues are quite different than actually visiting the place in person-I am reminded of the story of Albert Einstein and the Blind man:
Einstein and his blindfriend. This story shows how complex Einstein could be. Not long after his arrival in Princeton he was invited, by the wife of one of the professors of mathematics at Princeton, to be guest of honor at a tea.-Reluctantly, Einstein consented. After the tea had progressed for a time, the excited hostess, thrilled to have such an eminent guest of honor, fluttered out into the center of activity and with raised arms silenced the group. Bubbling out some words expressing her thrill and pleasure, she turned to Einstein and said: "I wonder, Dr. Einstein, if you would be so kind as to explain to my guests in a few words, just what is relativity theory ? "
Without any hesitation Einstein rose to his feet and told a story. He said he was reminded of a walk he one day had with his blind friend. The day was hot and he turned to the blind friend and said, "I wish I had a glass of milk."
"Glass," replied the blind friend, "I know what that is. But what do you mean by milk?"
"Why, milk is a white fluid," explained Einstein.
"Now fluid, I know what that is," said the blind man. "but what is white ? "
" Oh, white is the color of a swan's feathers."
" Feathers, now I know what they are, but what is a swan ? "
"A swan is a bird with a crooked neck."
" Neck, I know what that is, but what do you mean by crooked ? "
At this point Einstein said he lost his patience. He seized his blind friend's arm and pulled it straight. "There, now your arm is straight," he said. Then he bent the blind friend's arm at the elbow. "Now it is crooked."
"Ah," said the blind friend. "Now I know what milk is."
And Einstein, at the tea, sat down.
-----------------------------------
Without being familiar with the Indian ethos and culture,without having first hand experience of what it all means,it will be an exercise in futility to try to unravel the secret of its vitality and longevity;if in addition,one has to depend on what newspapers carry,nothing can be more misleading than that.
As Emerson says ,a little in the face:
"For nonconformity the world whips you with its displeasure. And therefore a man must know how to estimate a sour face. The by-standers look askance on him in the public street or in the friend's parlour. If this aversation had its origin in contempt and resistance like his own, he might well go home with a sad countenance; but the sour faces of the multitude, like their sweet faces, have no deep cause, but are put on and off as the wind blows and a newspaper directs. Yet is the discontent of the multitude more formidable than that of the senate and the college. It is easy enough for a firm man who knows the world to brook the rage of the cultivated classes. Their rage is decorous and prudent, for they are timid as being very vulnerable themselves. But when to their feminine rage the indignation of the people is added, when the ignorant and the poor are aroused, when the unintelligent brute force that lies at the bottom of society is made to growl and mow, it needs the habit of magnanimity and religion to treat it godlike as a trifle of no concernment."
-----------------------------------
I will recommend Sri Aurobindo's wonderful articles on Indian culture for all those who would like to have a balanced and insightful account.Here are a few excerpts.....
Continued......
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from "The Renaissance in India" by Sri Aurobindo on the Varnas:
"For the real greatness of the Indian system of the four varnas
did not lie in its well-ordered division of economic function;
its true originality and permanent value was in the ethical and
spiritual content which the thinkers and builders of the society
poured into these forms. This inner content started with the
idea that the intellectual, ethical and spiritual growth of the
individual is the central need of the race. Society itself is only the
necessary framework for this growth; it is a system of relations
which provides it with its needed medium, field and conditions
and with a nexus of helpful influences. A secure place had to
be found in the community for the individual man from which
he could at once serve these relations, helping to maintain the
society and pay it his debt of duty and assistance, and proceed
to his own self-development with the best possible aid from the
communal life. Birth was accepted in practice as the first gross
and natural indicator; for heredity to the Indian mind has always
ranked as a factor of the highest importance: it was even taken
in later thought as a sign of the nature and as an index to the
surroundings which the individual had prepared for himself by
his past soul-development in former existences. But birth is not
and cannot be the sole test of Varna. The intellectual capacity
(A Rationalistic Critic on Indian Culture – 6 173,Sri aurobindo)
of the man, the turn of his temperament, his ethical nature,
his spiritual stature, these are the important factors. There was
erected therefore a rule of family living, a system of individual
observance and self-training, a force of upbringing and education
which would bring out and formulate these essential things.
....continued.......
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo continued....
The individual man was carefully trained in the capacities, habits
and attainments, and habituated to the sense of honour and duty
necessary for the discharge of his allotted function in life.He was
scrupulously equipped with the science of the thing he had to
do, the best way to succeed in it as an interest, artha, and to
attain to the highest rule, canon and recognised perfection of its
activities, economic, political, sacerdotal, literary, scholastic or
whatever else theymight be. Even the most despised pursuits had
their education, their law and canon, their ambition of success,
their sense of honour in the discharge and scruple of well-doing,
their dignity of a fixed standard of perfection, and it was because
they had these things that even the lowest and least attractive
could be in a certain degree a means of self-finding and ordered
self-satisfaction. In addition to this special function and training
there were the general accomplishments, sciences, arts, graces of
life, those which satisfy the intellectual, aesthetic and hedonistic
powers of human nature. These in ancient India were many
and various, were taught with minuteness, thoroughness and
subtlety and were available to all men of culture.
.....continued........
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo continued....
But while there was provision for all these things and it was
made with a vivid liberality of the life-spirit and a noble sense
of order, the spirit of Indian culture did not, like other ancient
cultures, stop here. It said to the individual: “This is only the
substructure; it is of a pressing importance indeed, but still not
the last and greatest thing. When you have paid your debt to
society, filled well and admirably your place in its life, helped its
maintenance and continuity and taken from it your legitimate
and desired satisfactions, there still remains the greatest thing of
all. There is still your own self, the inner you, the soul which
is a spiritual portion of the Infinite, one in its essence with the
Eternal. This self, this soul in you you have to find, you are here
for that, and it is from the place I have provided for you in life
(174 A Defence of Indian Culture-Sri Aurobindo)
and by this training that you can begin to find it. For to each
Varna I have supplied its highest ideal of manhood, the highest
ideal way of which your nature is capable. By directing your life
and nature in its own law of being towards that perfection, you
can not only grow towards the ideal and enter into harmony with
universal nature but come also into nearness and contact with
a greater nature of divinity and move towards transcendence.
That is the real object before you. From the life-basis I give you
you can rise to the liberating knowledge which brings a spiritual
release, moks.a. Then you can grow out of all these limitations in
which you are being trained; you can grow through the fulfilled
Dharma and beyond it into the eternity of your self, into the
fullness, freedom, greatness and bliss of the immortal spirit; for
that is what eachman is behind the veils of his nature. When you
have done that you are free. Then you have gone beyond all the
dharmas; you are then a universal soul, one with all existence,
and you can either act in that divine liberty for the good of all
living things or else turn to enjoy in solitude the bliss of eternity
and transcendence.” The whole system of society, founded on
the four varnas, was made a harmonious means for the elevation
and progress of the soul, mind and life from the natural pursuit
of interest and desire first to the perfection of the law of our
being, Dharma, and at the end to a highest spiritual freedom.
For man’s true end in life must be always this realisation of
his own immortal self, this entry in its secret of an infinite and
eternal existence.
-----------------------------------
This is the essence of what Sri Krishna tells Arjuna in the Gita.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from 'Indian spirituality and Life' by Sri Aurobindo:
The whole root of difference between Indian and European
culture springs from the spiritual aim of Indian civilisation. It
is the turn which this aim imposes on all the rich and luxuriant
variety of its forms and rhythms that gives to it its unique
character. For even what it has in common with other cultures
gets from that turn a stamp of striking originality and solitary
greatness. A spiritual aspiration was the governing force of this
culture, its core of thought, its ruling passion. Not only did it
make spirituality the highest aim of life, but it even tried, as far
as that could be done in the past conditions of the human race, to
turn the whole of life towards spirituality. But since religion is in
the humanmind the first native, if imperfect form of the spiritual
impulse, the predominance of the spiritual idea, its endeavour to
take hold of life, necessitated a casting of thought and action into
the religious mould and a persistent filling of every circumstance
(Indian Spirituality and Life – p 179)
of life with the religious sense; it demanded a pervadingly religiophilosophic
culture. The highest spirituality indeed moves in a
free and wide air far above that lower stage of seeking which
is governed by religious form and dogma; it does not easily
bear their limitations and, even when it admits, it transcends
them; it lives in an experience which to the formal religious
mind is unintelligible. But man does not arrive immediately at
that highest inner elevation and, if it were demanded from him
at once, he would never arrive there. At first he needs lower
supports and stages of ascent; he asks for some scaffolding of
dogma, worship, image, sign, form, symbol, some indulgence
and permission of mixed half-natural motive on which he can
stand while he builds up in him the temple of the spirit. Only
when the temple is completed, can the supports be removed,
the scaffolding disappear. The religious culture which now goes
by the name of Hinduism not only fulfilled this purpose, but,
unlike certain credal religions, it knew its purpose. It gave itself
no name, because it set itself no sectarian limits; it claimed no
universal adhesion, asserted no sole infallible dogma, set up no
single narrow path or gate of salvation; it was less a creed or
cult than a continuously enlarging tradition of the Godward
endeavour of the human spirit. An immense many-sided manystaged
provision for a spiritual self-building and self-finding, it
had some right to speak of itself by the only name it knew, the
eternal religion, san¯atana dharma. It is only if we have a just and
right appreciation of this sense and spirit of Indian religion that
we can come to an understanding of the true sense and spirit of
Indian culture.
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi,
I warmly recommend Francois Gautier's articles-He has stayed in India for over 40 years and is quite refreshingly different-a true Lover of India.Here is his article:To be a woman in India.
http://www.francoisgautier.com/En/70.html
There are other articles written with great sensitivity by this wonderful French.Gautier is a disciple of Mother and Sri Aurobindo.
Namaskar.
I really am ignorant of the "crimes" of the caste system, a simple search of wikipedia, and I really couldn't find hardly a mention of actual specifics. I'm not saying they haven't happened. There was some mention of how one "low caste" group perpetrated violence against Dalits. So, what were and are the atrocities committed as part of the caste system? Have people been refused jobs? Are they isolated incidents, or generally has the caste system been oppressive? Is the caste system at all as oppressive as the Western Class System. Broken Yogi, you seem to suggest slavery has indeed been a part of the caste system, I couldn't find any mention of that from a simple Google Search. Is that true? I took a class on India, that was suggesting the Western class system, such as in Britain and America is actually more oppressive than the caste system. That's why for me to understand why the caste system is a perversion of the Varna, I would have to know more about the actual "crimes" perpetrated as part of it. In that class, and on wikipedia, it was saying that castes were fluid before the British came and formalized it because it reminded them of their class divisions, and as a means to divide and conquer. If that is the case, that would suggest that in caste oppression, Westerners may bear responsibility. Not only that, Ravi, and David Godman are both from my estimation, fairly unprejudiced people, and Tamil Nadu, I would assume is a place where caste is still observed. Something I know little about. If there were great caste injustices being perpetrated all around them, I would think we would hear more on the topic from them. In Portland, there are great injustices based on race, such as police murder, racial profiling, that happen on a daily basis, it's not theoretical. Broken Yogi, my criticism of your writing, wasn't so much that you were factually wrong (though you could be), but that you seem to me, to generalize (in ways that may or may be true), rather than feeling the need to provide any specifics or facts at all to back up what you are saying. For instance, your equating the Antebellum South, where some of the most violent oppression of a minority group took place, with the "crimes" of the caste system, I wonder if it's more poetic than factual. Even here, I could be incorrect. (please, Broken yogi, correct me) But that was the nature of my comment, not that I'm a proponent of the caste system, which is how you mistakenly characterized what I was saying. -lol
But since correcting oneself is correcting the world, I'm going to resume my inquiry and trying to do that, rather then caving into the temptation to engage in disputations. See ya!
I apologize I shouldn't get involved in debates, but should focus on inquiry, and Realization.
Ravi, You can quote Aurobindo all you like. As far as I'm concerned he's so verbose!
I'll take the beauty and simplicity of Ramana any time.
Aurobindo is wearisomely long-winded. Give me a break from Aurobindo's long monologues!
I received a phone call this morning that contained the shocking news that Nandu Narasimha, a regular on this blog ever since it started, had died of a massive heart attack in New Delhi. I talked to him at Ramanasramam less than a week ago and he seemed healthy and in fine spirits. On the 9th of this month he sent me an email in which he said:
'Have been fooling with your new [Annamalai Swami book] photographs. Have been trying to increase their size with a small software I have.
'It is the only way I can serve Bhagavan, since I cannot paint, photograph, sing or write poetry.'
Nandu attended the birth Centenary of Papaji in Lucknow on October 13th where he met many of Papaji's old devotees for the first time. I think his last contribution to this blog was a description of what happened while he was there.
His family had a long connection with Bhagavan. I have been told that his grandfather's brother was one of the doctors who operated on Bhagavan in the late 1940s.
In the last week or so of his life he was making enquiries on my behalf to various major Tamil libraries. I have been thinking of starting a scheme to scan and make publicly available online many of the old Tamil spiritual texts that are out of copyright and out of print. Nandi energetically joined the cause and used his family connections in Chennai to see which libraries might be interested.
He is survived by a wife and children in New Delhi. On behalf of everyone here who knew Nandu, I send them our best wishes.
Nandu Narasimha was a great and loving devotee. He was the one who gave me "The Song of Ribhu". Clearly his spiritual love was with him till his last day on earth. Certainly this love will last forever.
David,
I believe this Nandu Narasimhan is the one you have written about.
It is shocking. Body's destiny unpredictable for ordinary people. We have to focus to transcend the body-mind limitation.
A Note: When I posted this comment, the word verification image displayed "dying". Strange, indeed.
Thanks, Sankar Ganesh.
David/Friends,
I am saddened at this sudden passing away of our friend Nandu-A great lover of Sri Bhagavan.A gentle soul with a rare sensitivity;I recall his longing to be in Sri Ramanasramam,how he somehow wished he could move to Tiruvannamalai.I also recall how he narrated the story of a friend of his in Bangalre,who used to touch the buses going to Tiruvannamalai,durng his Lunch recess.
Inspired by his longing to be in Tiruvannamalai,I posted the story of Nanda,The pariah Saint in this Blog-Nandu's longing was like Nanda's!
My heart also goes out to his wife and children.May Sri Bhagavan grant the strength to bear the loss.
Namaskar.
It's not hard to find information on the dalits (untouchables). I did a simple google search on “plight of the untouchable in india dalits" and came up with the following articles. The first section is written by Indians, to counter Ravi's claim that only westerners with no experience of India would find anything wrong with the caste system:
A three part article on the untouchables:
http://sixth-finger.blogspot.com/2006/05/13-history-and-plight-of-dalits-of.html
http://sixth-finger.blogspot.com/2006/05/14-history-and-plight-of-dalits-of.html
http://sixth-finger.blogspot.com/2006/05/15-history-and-plight-of-dalits-of.html
A good scholarly review of the history of the Dalit:
http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/11/the-plight-of-the-250-million-untouchable-dalit-in-india-20-of-population/
Crimes against Dalits:
http://www.dalitnetwork.org/go?/dfn/news/C144/
A documentary movie on the dalits:
http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-the-untouchables-min-documentary-%5BK1CY48_Tmho%5D.cfm
Another video documentary:
http://wn.com/Dalits_in_India
An article on the plight of Dalit women:
http://wgc.womensglobalconnection.org/conf06proceedings/Jaiswal%20R.--%20Plight%20of%20Rural%20Dalit%20Women.pdf
A detailed scholarly account of the life of a Dalit woman:
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-04022004-141635/unrestricted/galeetd.pdf
From Google Books, the entire text of the book “Untouchables in The Twenty-First Century: The Plight of the Dalits”:
http://books.google.com/books?id=T75G7hLlk80C&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=plight+of+the+untouchable+in+india+dalit&source=bl&ots=ACfGYJysop&sig=9aBcqqpQEnO0uVmohfOHktoGhVY&hl=en&ei=JPLcTKTWD460sAOnqNnkCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=plight%20of%20the%20untouchable%20in%20india%20dalit&f=false
Article on violence and crimes against India's untouchables:
http://www.suite101.com/content/the-violent-world-of-dalits-a4717
Articles by westerners on Dalits:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/features/Shining-a-light.5995348.jp
Short article but with many links to further articles on the Dalit problem:
http://old.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id437/pg1/index.html
National Geographic article on the Dalits:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html
From Minority Rights Group International on Dalits (including issue of bondage/slavery):
http://www.minorityrights.org/?lid=5652&tmpl=printpage
Articles from Human Rights Watch:
Slavery issue: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/globalcaste/caste0801-03.htm#P292_53595
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/globalcaste/
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/02/12/india-hidden-apartheid-discrimination-against-dalits
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/03/11/india-un-finds-pervasive-abuse-against-dalits
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2003/01/30/meanwhile-15-million-india-childhood-slavery
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1998/07/27/hrw-letter-killings-dalits-andhra-pradesh-india
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/01/11/indias-dalits-between-atrocity-and-protest
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/04/22/state-central-authorities-india-criminally-negligent
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/08/05/police-killings-tamil-nadu-india
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2000/03/19/indias-minorities-are-targets-government-abetted-violence
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2003/01/23/child-slaves-abandoned-indias-silk-industry
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/07/16/india-prosecute-rampant-honor-killings
I must say, my heart is sick from reading all these articles about the Dalits of India. It's even worse than I had thought. I simply cannot understand how spiritually minded people can defend such things. Or deny that such a horrific problem exists. If ever there were a reason to transcend the bondage of dualism and practice unconditional love, this would be it. The heart simply breaks.
Friends,
I used to read Nandu's comments eagerly, and highly admired his devotion and humility. I hope he is closer to Bhagavan now.
My thoughts are with his family. May Bhaghavan give them the strength to cope with this tragic loss.
m
Yes I remember waiting eagerly for Nandu to give a full report on Papaji's centenary celebrations and talks with his advanced devotees.Although I do not know him personally it is shocking to hear the news.I also remember reading a few posts on his childish love for Arunachala and Bhagawan.
May he rest in peace and pray that Lord Arunachala who he loved so much help his family and kids recover from this shock.
-z
That is indeed shocking news. Nandu was so fond of Bhagavan, Papaji - a genuine fellow seeker who made valuable contributions to this blog. We can only pray to Bhagavan to give his family the strength to withstand this. Bhagavan's ways are so inscrutable.
Broken Yogi,
Things have definitely changed since India's Independence. Due to Government's affirmative action policies, many of my Dalit and SC/ST friends are well educated and are in good positions here and in abroad, with even inter-caste marriages with higher castes.
Because this caste based discrimination has sanction in Shastras (just like jihad for Muslims in Quran), it is difficult to see an instant change. Definitely, Hinduism is reforming itself with many educated Hindus rejecting the discriminating aspects of the Shastras.
Because this is a centuries old wound and the medicine is being applied only from the last century, it is going to take a long time for a complete end to this caste based discrimination. Good Education to Dalits and SC/ST is the only good solution along with social awareness of this injustice among Indians (this is practised even among Muslims and Christians because they were converts from Hinduism).
TC.
Broken Yogi,
"It's even worse than I had thought. I simply cannot understand how spiritually minded people can defend such things. Or deny that such a horrific problem exists."
Friend,this is a good question that must be asked-and should stop us on our tracks and set us thinking in an impartial manner.
Please consider what I have said:
1.I have said that the positive advantages of the varna Ashrama System far outweighs the disadvantages.
2.The propaganda tirade of the mass media against Sanatana Dharma is something that one should be wary of-and Marxists are part of this along with the proselytizing Christian Groups.
3.The Problem of the Poor Dalits should be properly understood.
We will begin with the identification of point no3 above-the identification of the Problem.To do this we need to recall the Four fruits of Life that Sanatana Dharma has wonderfully identified and laid out-Dharma,Artha ,Kama and Moksha ,in that order.It is not as if these are watertight divisions but it means that all activities are to be goaded by these four motives in proper proportion.Anyone of the elements missing would lead to aberrations.Each of the Varnas have a certain mix of the four that characterises their living.
On account of the Kshatriya power waning,the Noble and just kings gave place to weaklings who were indifferent and under these circumstances,the Local Landlords became powerful and started exercising their tyranny over the POOR downtroddens.This is a purely social evil and has nothing to do with the Glorious Sanatana Dharma just like Fundamentalism and Terrorism has nothing to do with Islam.
To say that the Varna(jati also) ashrama Dharma is the root of all evil is to misrepresent Facts.Do we say that Religion is bad because it leads to Division between the Muslim,the Christian,The Buddhist and the Hindu-each one pulls their followers in different directions ,so Religion is Evil and should be abolished?Do not we understand that each one of these religions have their role to play and as long as the inherent principles are adhered to,they wonderfully serve their purpose in catering to the diverse natures of people.
This is the proper and objective way of viewing these aspects and it requires a balanced and unprejudiced mind.As I have said that most of the Mass media reporters do not have this quality and to be carried away by their propaganada is to allow ourselves to be mislead.
...to be continued....
TC,
You posted saying 'caste based discrimination has sanction in the shastras'?
Can you back this statement with verses from any shastras?
Ravi:
Thanks for the link about the resident French-man, who has written about the sort of 'reverse discrimination' that is happening these days.
best,
m
TC,
I don't think caste based discrimination has any sanction from the scriptures.Infact the opposite.The discrimination is man made.In every walk of life and in every aspect Man has apportioned Hig to Low and has come to look up to the High and look down upon the low.
But in India the worst part is it went as far as physical 'Untouchability'.Even the highest learned Sankara had to be taught on this by Lord Siva himself who appeared in the form of a chandala.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXrGq_yS0B8&feature=related
Even in Pakistan and Bangladesh(which were part of India) where the population has taken on Islam for more than 3 to 8 centuries most of them still follow the Vedic caste system when it comes to marriage.Even in these Islamic countries even after these many centuries there is a living caste system and discrimination. There are also chandala/pariah(untouchable) castes there now. Even many Christians in India marry only within their Caste.So caste is more cultural than religious although they originated from the Vedic period.
As people today are beginning to marry across castes at an increasing rate in a generation or so caste will be entirely wiped out in India.The forth coming Indian sixties is a different topic.Even Class system doesn't really exist in the rich Europe and America today. It is now Consumerism, 'Politically right-Liberalism', Individualism and so will it be in India; atleast the Consumerism and Individulism part.
There is everything in the rich West, in theory paradise, but people are constantly on the move, insecure, restless, insecure relationships, like in Consumerism impatient to persevere as the next best thing is only a wink away. In the end I am not sure there is hapiness here any more than the East and probably the cave man was more content with his superstition and pagan gods.
But like it is said in the movie 'Antz'(free on youtube) back to where I was, unhappy again,but the difference is this time I made the choice and not the system.
The Ideal would be with the best bits of the both the extremes but is it ever possible? It is human nature to transcend limitations and taboos.Let's see what Vivekananda says on this:
##
1)I would say, the combination of the Greek mind represented by the external European energy added to the Hindu spirituality would be an ideal society for India.
2)The history of the past has gone to develop the inner life of India and the activity (i.e. the outer life) of the West. Hitherto these have been divergent. The time has now come for them to unite.
3)"It is a curious thing", continued the Swami, "that the inner life is often most profoundly developed where the outer conditions are most cramping and limiting. But this is an accidental — not an essential — association.
##
I'd say Ideals are only Ideals.But what is unacceptable is degeneration, lack of law and order and human rights, minimum self respect and decency.Human mind and Total consciouness is costantly changing.Systems that govern should keep up with this change or they will degenerate like the caste system in India.
-z
TC,
I don't think caste based discrimination has any sanction from the scriptures.Infact the opposite.The discrimination is man made.In every walk of life and in every aspect Man has apportioned Hig to Low and has come to look up to the High and look down upon the low.
But in India the worst part is it went as far as physical 'Untouchability'.Even the highest learned Sankara had to be taught on this by Lord Siva himself who appeared in the form of a chandala.Even in Pakistan and Bangladesh(which were part of India) where the population has taken on Islam for more than 3 to 8 centuries most of them still follow the Vedic caste system when it comes to marriage.Even in these Islamic countries even after these many centuries there is a living caste system and discrimination. There are also chandala/pariah(untouchable) castes there now. Even many Christians in India marry only within their Caste.So caste is more cultural than religious although they originated from the Vedic period.
As people today are beginning to marry across castes at an increasing rate in a generation or so caste will be entirely wiped out in India.The forth coming Indian sixties is a different topic.Even Class system doesn't really exist in the rich Europe and America today. It is now Consumerism, 'Politically right-Liberalism', Individualism and so will it be in India; atleast the Consumerism and Individulism part.
There is everything in the rich West, in theory paradise, but people are constantly on the move, insecure, restless, insecure relationships, like in Consumerism impatient to persevere as the next best thing is only a wink away. In the end I am not sure there is hapiness here any more than the East and probably the cave man was more content with his superstition and pagan gods.
But like it is said in the movie 'Antz'(free on youtube) back to where I was, unhappy again,but the difference is this time I made the choice and not the system.
The Ideal would be with the best bits of the both the extremes but is it ever possible? It is human nature to transcend limitations and taboos.Let's see what Vivekananda says on this:
##
1)I would say, the combination of the Greek mind represented by the external European energy added to the Hindu spirituality would be an ideal society for India.
2)The history of the past has gone to develop the inner life of India and the activity (i.e. the outer life) of the West. Hitherto these have been divergent. The time has now come for them to unite.
3)"It is a curious thing", continued the Swami, "that the inner life is often most profoundly developed where the outer conditions are most cramping and limiting. But this is an accidental — not an essential — association.
##
I'd say Ideals are only Ideals.But what is unacceptable is degeneration.Human mind and Total consciouness is costantly changing.Systems that govern should keep up with this change or they will degenerate like the caste system in India.
Vivekananda's meeting with the famous Rockfeller
*********************************
FIRST MEETING WITH JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER
(An excerpt from Madame Verdier’s journal quoted in the New Discoveries, Vol. 1, pp. 487-88.)
[As told by Madame Emma Calvé‚ to Madame Drinette Verdier]
Mr. X, in whose home Swamiji was staying in Chicago, was a partner or an associate in some business with John D. Rockefeller. Many times John D. heard his friends talking about this extraordinary and wonderful Hindu monk who was staying with them, and many times he had been invited to meet Swamiji but, for one reason or another, always refused. At that time Rockefeller was not yet at the peak of his fortune, but was already powerful and strong-willed, very difficult to handle and a hard man to advise.
But one day, although he did not want to meet Swamiji, he was pushed to it by an impulse and went directly to the house of his friends, brushing aside the butler who opened the door and saying that he wanted to see the Hindu monk.
The butler ushered him into the living room, and, not waiting to be announced, Rockefeller entered into Swamiji's adjoining study and was much surprised, I presume, to see Swamiji behind his writing table not even lifting his eyes to see who had entered.
After a while, as with Calvé, Swamiji told Rockefeller much of his past that was not known to any but himself, and made him understand that the money he had already accumulated was not his, that he was only a channel and that his duty was to do good to the world — that God had given him all his wealth in order that he might have an opportunity to help and do good to people.
Rockefeller was annoyed that anyone dared to talk to him that way and tell him what to do. He left the room in irritation, not even saying goodbye. But about a week after, again without being announced, he entered Swamiji's study and, finding him the same as before, threw on his desk a paper which told of his plans to donate an enormous sum of money toward the financing of a public institution.
"Well, there you are", he said. "You must be satisfied now, and you can thank me for it."
Swamiji didn't even lift his eyes, did not move. Then taking the paper, he quietly read it, saying: "It is for you to thank me". That was all. This was Rockefeller's first large donation to the public welfare.
-z
Requesting to read the contents at,
On Manu Smriti
http://reservationfacts.blogspot.com/2008_06_01_archive.html
I am not against any caste or community. I have friends across all castes and religions.
I am just pointing out that caste based discrimination exists in our India. Because our country gives so much importance to Self-Realization, we should correct ourself in this regard to be more humane that's all.
In Tamil Nadu, respected Nationalist figures (who were also Brahmins) like Poet Subramanya Bharathi (who also fought for women rights), Rajaji (enacted law & spearheaded temple-entry for dalits) and others fought against caste based discrimination.
TC.
Ravi,
I'm not sure how you can defend the centuries of criminal violence, suppression and degradation committed by higher caste Hindus on the lower castes, especially the Dalits. One cannot excuse harmful actions in one area of life by pointing to one's positive actions in some other area. In the same way, the sanatana dharma cannot excuse its crimes against the lower classes by pointing to its many virtues. The one has little to do with the other. Even a saint tries to eliminate his vices, and does not defend them by pointing to his virtues.
The first step, it seems to me, is to recognize that there has been a violation of the sacred law of ahimsa here, and ongoing for many centuries. To live in denial of this is to be condemned to perpetuate this sin. And having recognized this sin, it is necessary to repent of it and be purified. Then and only then can those who have committed and perpetuated these sins become genuine brahmanas.
The problem here is not some kind of anti-sanatana dharma media campaign. (No such campaign exists in the west that I am aware of). The problem is the real crimes and sins against God and man that have been committed for centuries by those in power in the upper classes, and their refusal to recognize these actions as both crimes and sins. Defending their actions as being in accord with the ancient dharma of the genuine sages is simply a lie. Caste and vatis are nothing but social customs developed on their own, at best degenerate corruptions of the ideas of varna, and they have no genuine spiritual value to them. They have had value in giving India social stability, but at a terrible cost to those on the lower end of the social order. And that cost is simply an unacceptable and inhuman burden to place on the lower classes, just as slavery was in the American south.
No one, certainly not me, is suggesting that sanatana dharma be abolished because of its criminal complicity in the suppression of the lower jatis. I am suggesting that it be reformed and purged the jatis, and return to an esoteric understanding of the varna principle, and not attempt to define sanatana dharma by that kind of oppressive cultural system.
This is no different from the viewpoint of many great Hindus and realizers and reformers going back many thousands of years. The Buddha and Mahavira did not find any spiritual or cultural justification for the jatis, nor do the shaivites, nor most of the bhaktis, not the yogis, nor the Naths, nor did Vivekananda, nor Sri Ramana, nor does the present government of India, and the list only goes on and on. It is simply not an essential aspect of sanatana dharma, and that needs to be recognized, so that the elimination of the jatis is not seen as an attack on sanatana dharma.
As you say, there are many crimes and sins throughout religion, and that does not mean that religion should be abolished. It is only the crimes and sins within religion that need to be abolished. And so it is with everyone. Sanatana dharma need not be abolished, but its crimes and sins must be rejected and cast out, and repentance and purification must be practiced. A tapas is necessary among those who have committed and benefited from these crimes.
Nothing is accomplished by defending one's sins and pretending that one's virtues are dependent on one's sins, and that if one's sins are taken away one's virtues will perish. This is sheer delusion. Sanatana dharma will be stronger for rejecting the jati system and especially its suppression of the Dalit population. And that process is already begun as many here note, and it is I think an historical inevitability given the tenor of the times. And that is a good thing for sanatana dharma, not a damaging of its reputation, but a restoration of its real virtues, which lie in ahimsa, compassion for all, and the recognition that all are the same Divine Self.
Tc/Friends,
Here is an excerpt from the site that TC has pointed :
"When Arjuna refuses to fight, one of his main worries was that the war would lead to the birth of varna-sankaras or offspring from intermixing of different varnas and the consequent "downfall" of the family. On the other hand, Krishna tries to motivate Arjuna to fight by saying that it was his varna-dharma (caste-duty) to do so because he was a Kshatriya. In fact, Krishna goes to the extent of claiming that the four varnas were created by him only. Thus, Arjuna's main problem was being born a Kshatriya.Had he been a Brahmin or a Vaishya or a Shudra by birth, he would have been spared the trouble of fighting a destructive war."
This is the way by taking some half Truths and leaving out some vital facts,one reaches erroneous conclusions.What other things that Sri Krishna told Arjuna,we know too well-He has covered the entire field of Social,moral,psychological,spiritual aspects and left nothing uncovered.
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Truth is that present Indians do not have sufficient knowledge of these things-They are victims to all sorts of propaganda.
How many know that the Ramayana and the Mahabharata were the works of men who did not belong to the upper caste!!!
Ramayana was composed by Sage Valmiki who was a Dalit!(Please visit:http://www.bhagwanvalmiki.com/wikipedia.htm)
similiarly the Mahabharata was the work of Vyasa(there is certainly some cloud about how many Vyasas were there).How many know the story of Vyasa's birth?that he was born to sage parasara and a low caste boatman?(please read:http://www.telugubhakti.com/telugupages/Sages/VedaVyasa.htm)
The Guru purnima is sacred for all the hindus and this is in memory of Sage Veda Vyasa.
Also the other great work Srimad Bhagavatham is also rendered by a SUTA(Please read on who is a 'Suta'
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata_and_the_Indian_caste_system)
We may find examples of intercaste marriages everywhere.Please read what Yudhishtra tells the Yaksha in the Yaksha Prasna as to who is a Brahmin and who is a Sudra-birth ALONE does not make one a Brahmin and the same is TRUE for a sudra.The ALONE factor is crucial-Heredity alone does not guarantee that one is a Brahmin.This is the reason to invest the Sacred thread at the age of 6 or 7 for the Brahmin-This is the initiation into the Higher Truths and only after this initiation and due adherence to the Truths and Disciplines that one may be called a Brahmin.
As I have said that this is a vast subject and suffice it to say that before one tends to succumb to some superficial half baked propaganda,it helps to remember that there may be other sides to these facts.
-----------------------------------
.....Continued.......
TC/Friends,
...continued....
I am not belittling the necessity to weed out social scourge,I am equally alert to launch a broadside on such things-but this should not make us lose sight of our glorious heritage and more importantly that ONE NEED NOT BE APOLOGETIC when it comes to explaining facts to others who may not be expected to know the complete picture.
As Francois Gautier has rightly assessed that Indians are lacking the Pride element unlike let us say the Japanese or the Americans or the Germans in their cultural heritage(despite admitting their limitations).This is what Swami Vivekananda always berated the all too submissive Indians-Tamas has come to be mistaken for Satva!All too often one finds the average Indian totally divorced from his cultural and spiritual heritage-hum hawing when bombarded from all sides by propaganda that would like him to believe that he belongs to primitive origins and the sooner he disassociates from it -this is the way to go!
The simplest thing for an Indian is to remember his GOTRA that traces his lineage to the Great Rishis -and this is part of the 'Abivadhaye',the way he is required to introduce himself to Elders.Please Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhivadaye
An Indian needs to remember that he has the Blood of the Vedic Rishis running in his veins.
This is the first thing taught to the Boy who is initiated by his FATHER when he is introduced to the Vedic Dharma on being invested with the sacred thread(yajnyopaveetham).It is the FATHER who becomes his first Guru initiating him into the Sacred and truly UNIVERSAL Gayatri Mantra.All those who say that Heredity is not a Factor should take this into account.Please also take note of what is Happening in Genetic Engineering.The Varna Ashrama Dharma is one of the Brilliant genetic Engineering in the Realms of the Spirit.
It is all too easy to oversimplify and say that it is all in the 'mind',when we know how hard it is to get rid of the 'conditioning'.The Great Rishis were brilliant psychologists who saw 'RIGHT CONDITIONING' as the way to transcend all conditioning and enter the limitless,borderless realm of the Pure Spirit.This has borne the results in that Sanatana Dharma has been projecting an endless stream of Great ones right down to this day.
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I find TC is quite objective neutral and unprejudiced but I am not sure that he has all the facts on these things.Also the Manu Smriti is just one of the 18 other Smritis and unlike the Srutis,the smritis were man made and are subject to interpolations-hence they cannot be considered as authoritative.
The Prasthana Traya is what is considered Authoritative-The Upanishads,The Brahma Sutra and the Glorious Bhagavad Gita(I have not found another work comparable to this).
Namaskar.
TC,
Thanks for the link. I think the author is ignorant about the meaning of 'Varnas' and equates it to caste-system. This, imo, is incorrect.
He also goes on to say, in a different post, that Bhagavad Gita also supports caste-system. This point is also incorrect.
I am not defending the atrocities perpetuated by people in the name of caste, btw.
Best,
m
Broken Yogi,
" The problem is the real crimes and sins against God and man that have been committed for centuries by those in power in the upper classes, and their refusal to recognize these actions as both crimes and sins. Defending their actions as being in accord with the ancient dharma of the genuine sages is simply a lie."
Friend,if what you say is true,how come The Ramayana and The Mahabharata are respected by all the Varnas and Sage Vyasa is considered as the Guru of all Gurus?This absolutely falsifies your point of view.I do not see a single fact in what you have been posting all these days that point to the Varna Dharma as the Root of Evil.
I have already posted on how a chandala or a suta is born vide that link to Mahabharata.
You need to answer the above questions in a satisfactory manner before we go further.
It does not help to go on repeating that the "Upper castes tyrannized over the lower castes" and that there is no basis for all this in Sanatana Dharma-that all this was only a social appendage.
The simplest refutation of what you are saying is that Sanatana Dharma is a Way of Life and it does not divorce the social aspect from its spiritual aspect.The Social is one expression of the Spiritual.This is not an 'ideal' position.In The Bhagavatham,it is the Suta who narrates the story and all the others listen to the Suta.They did not insist that only a Brahmin should recite it!This shows that there was perfect harmony and True worth was and(is!)respected.
That it is respected we know how Mata Amritanandamayi is loved by one and all-Amma is born in a fisherman's family and her story is truly a glorious one.
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I am doing a little bit of Karma Yoga here!You are referring to Swami Vivekananda,how he was against the caste system,etc.Please refer to what he says.Please read:
http://ramakrishnateachings.blogspot.com/2009/02/swami-vivekananda-caste-system-is.html
"Question - Is this spiritual freedom among the people consistent with attention to caste?
Swami Vivekananda — Certainly not. They say there should be no caste. Even those who are in caste say it is not a very perfect institution. But they say, when you find us another and a better one, we will give it up. They say, what will you give us instead? Where is there no caste? In your nation you are struggling all the time to make a caste. As soon as a man gets a bag of dollars, he says, "I am one of the Four Hundred." We alone have succeeded in making a permanent caste.
Other nations are struggling and do not succeed. We have superstitions and evils enough. Would taking the superstitions and evils from your country mend matters? It is owing to caste that three hundred millions of people can find a piece of bread to eat yet. It is an imperfect institution, no doubt. But if it had not been for caste, you would have had no Sanskrit books to study."
The Caste system is an organizational framework to promote collective functioning without thwarting individual innovation;Innovation is always a result of individual aspiration and this in turn affects the collective and strengthens it.
The Collective in turn ensures conservation of whatever gained.
The Caste system is thus not something fixed;Swami Vivekananda talks about the caste system prevailing now as 700 years of age.
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Namaskar.
ravi is meaning varnaa based on ancient sanaathana dharma while broken yogi is referring to caste as played by politicians and media and understood by the modern world.
R p
salutations to all:
ravi & broken yogi: when two people argue ceaselessly, ad nauseam, where each participant wants to have the last word by quoting somebody or something, isn't it the surest sign of 'ahamkAra'? what do you think bhagavAn would have done if he had been asked such a question? you two have some of the surest understanding of bhagavAn and his teachings, but i wonder where has all that gone? :-)
it's 'deepam' time; a reminder to halt the mental chatter and behold the beautiful deepam on our most beloved aruNAchalA :-)
[btw, nandu passed away on the first day of the ten-day deepam festival. hope he has become one with the "one" :-)]
s,
"you two have some of the surest understanding of bhagavAn and his teachings, but i wonder where has all that gone? :-)"
If it has gone it surely means that it was not there in the First place!Just kidding,Friend.
As I have said that the discussions have to be viewed objectively and not as 'one versus the other'.The only reason that I have continued is not to convince our friend Broken Yogi,but use this discussion as a platform to review Sanatana Dharma and the Wisdom of the Vedic sages down the Ages-To emphasise that a Sage Like Sri Bhagavan is not a flash in the pan or a freak happening,or an arbitrary Divine intervention -but a natural efflorescence and culmination of the collective aspiration of the Human Race.When we see the Grand Banyan,it is easy to forget the Roots and the Ground that has fostered this manifestation.It is easy to forget the enviroment that has shaped this and treat it as something unimportant and purely incidental-We need to remember that Sri Bhagavan's mother was quite Orthodox and although Sri Bhagavan set all that aside,it is on account of his being who he is!
As the Vedas proclaim that for the Realized soul,a Mother ceases to be a Mother,A Father ceases to be a Father and Veda becomes Aveda-all is cast behind.
Such is the Breath and boldness of the Vedas that it admits its dispensability!
For the Seeker all these are of importance and he can imbibe the best from Tradition and aspire for what is beyond Tradition.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Namaskar.
So Ravi,
How would you apply all that you said so far to the present day work life and daily living? Are you saying that all Brahmins must now withdraw from business, jobs, all money earning, ruling and all other non-brahmin activities and get back to reciting Vedas, living on alms and never hoarding for the next day?
As you have said so much I am sure you would have worked out a practical solution by now. How are you applying all that said in your life?
-z
Ravi,
Either I have not made myself clear or you are not reading me properly. I have never suggested that varna dharma is the root of evil. It is the caste system that is evil, and that evil is not intellectual or mythical, it is a real physical evil, demonstrated in the lives of the 160 million plus dalits, as well as in many other lower classes, and not merely in the present, but for many centuries. I think the links I have provided demonstrate the reality of this evil, and this is not refuted by pointing to cases of dalits rising above their caste or stories from scriptures of dalits who became great sages.
If anything, this demonstrates that there is no spiritual basis for segregating people into such classes at all. If a dalit can be a great sage, then he can also be a priest, a warrior, a businessman, or function perfectly well in any area of society. No man is “untouchable”, and to impose that status upon him and his children, generation after generation, is a terrible injustice, an act of violence, an evil. This ought to be clear to any sensible person capable of human empathy.
Further, to claim that it is their karma, that God has willed this upon such people, is a pointless self-rationalization. If I steal your wallet, rob your home, abuse your children, debase your wife, and then tell you it is your karma, the will of God, and that therefore you have no right to complain, how seriously will you take that rationalization? You would expect the authorities to arrest me and punish me according to the law, and consider my excuses to be sheer madness. But the same has been done to the dalits for centuries and you assume it to be their ordained destiny. Is not that sheer madness?
You claim that the caste system is a form of genetic engineering. This is simply false. Genetic testing has revealed no genetic basis for caste. The genes of the higher castes and lower castes are the same. There is no racial or genetic component to caste. There is no observable genetic distinction in the abilities or inclinations of each caste. What you are putting forth is merely a variant on the many racist theories of blood and genes that have been promoted by some of the most evil social and political regimes on earth, including the white supremacists of my own country. You are putting yourself and varna dharma in some truly terrible company by making these assertions.
The real problem with the varna system is the conflation of its social principles with the realities of the caste system. You try to defend those realities by referring to scriptures and the various ideals they describe about the differing characters of mankind. But if putting such ideals into practice involves the wholesale debasing of the dalits, then they are simply not genuine spiritual or social ideals, they are selfish, egoic rationalizations for criminal violence and class exploitation and abuse. If Vsaya is a true example of the dalits, then treat every dalit as Vsaya, the guru of gurus. If that is how sanatana dharma comes into being, be true to that, and not to this hereditary caste system. Treat the dalits as your spiritual superiors, not inferiors.
cont.
Ravi, cont.
Lakshmanjoe, the famed Kashmiri Shaivite master, often said that in this, the Kali yuga, the order of society has been reversed artificially, and that it is the lowest who are actually the highest in spiritual terms, that it is the servant classes who are the most spiritually advanced, and the priestly classes who are the lowest and least spiritually capable of understanding the true dharma. This exchange merely confirms this to me. To bring about the true order of the real sanatana dharma, this must be set right. Caste discrimination has obscured the true varnic nature of human beings. Just as maya obscures Brahman, caste has obscured the true Brahmanas among us. One must throw off these illusions and see human beings in the true light of Brahman, not the false light of caste.
I have no argument with your assertion that sanatana dharma must be put into action in life and society through the creation of a just social order. I merely point out that this has not been done in India. In fact, the caste system has created the reverse situation. Perhaps once long ago Inda was a truly spiritual society built on genuine spiritual principles of varna, or perhaps those are just idealized mythologies. In any case, the present social order of India is not a just and Divinely ordered society, and one of the main reasons is caste and its legacy of injustice and evil. So long as those espousing sanatana dharma also insist on imposing caste restrictions on people, India will never achieve the social order true sanatana dharma points to. One reason is that the wrong people are on top. Rather than spiritually worthy people rising to the top of the social order, caste has placed unworthy, debased and corrupt individuals who are the legacy of a criminal system at its top. This is not varna dharma. The true spiritual worth of those designated as dalits is not recognized and honored, and instead the corruptions of the upper castes are lionized.
This is slowly being reformed, I am aware, but the main resistance to reform of course comes from those who benefit from the status quo, those in the higher castes, who want to reserve their privileged positions for themselves and their children, and don't want to have to compete with the lower castes. They even use spiritual ideals and the greatness of India's spiritual traditions to justify their crimes and privilege. This further debases sanatana dharma, until it becomes indistinguishable from any other form of class exploitation, and of course it leads to dissent and rebellion and even the rejection of sanatana dharma. The solution to this is not to double-down on this corrupt system, but to purge it of these evils.
Vivekananda was not opposed to the caste system in principle, but the principle he upheld was quite different than that of the current caste system:
The plan in India is to make everybody Brahmana, the Brahmana being the ideal of humanity. If you read the history of India you will find that attempts have always been made to raise the lower classes. Many are the classes that have been raised. Many more will follow till the whole will become Brahmana. That is the plan. Our ideal is the Brahmana of spiritual culture and renunciation.
By the Brahmana ideal what do I mean? I mean the ideal Brahmana-ness in which worldliness is altogether absent and true wisdom is abundantly present. That is the ideal of the Hindu race. Have you not heard how it is declared he, the Brahmana, is not amenable to law, that he has no law, that he is not governed by kings, and that his body cannot be hurt? That is perfectly true. Do not understand it in the light thrown upon it by interested and ignorant fools, but understand it in the light of the true and original Vedantic conception.
If the Brahmana is he who has killed all selfishness and who lives to acquire and propagate wisdom and the power of love - if a country is altogether inhabited by such Brahmanas, by men and women who are spiritual and moral and good, is it strange to think of that country as being above and beyond all law? What police, what Military are necessary to govern them? Why should any one govern them at all? Why should they live under a government? They are good and noble, and they are the men of God; these are our ideal Brahmanas, and we read that in the SatyaYuga there was only one caste, and that was the Brahmana.
We read in the Mahabharata that the whole world was in the beginning peopled with Brahmanas, and that as they began to degenerate they became divided into different castes, and that when the cycle turns round they will all go back to that Brahmanical origin. The son of a Brahmana is not necessarily always a Brahmana; though there is every possibility of his being one, he may not become so.
The Brahmana caste and the Brahmana quality are two distinct things. As there are sattva, rajas and tamas - one or other of these gunas more or less - in every man, so the qualities which make a Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya or a Shudra are inherent in every man, more or less. But at time one or other of these qualities predominates in him in varying degrees and is manifested accordingly.
Take a man in his different pursuits, for example : when he is engaged in serving another for pay, he is in Shudra-hood; when he is busy transacting some some piece of business for profit, on his account, he is a Vaishya; when he fights to right wrongs then the qualities of a Kshatriya come out in him; and when he meditates on God, or passes his time in conversation about Him, then he is a Brahmana. Naturally, it is quite possible for one to be changed from one caste into another. Otherwise, how did Viswamitra become a Brahmana and Parashurama a Kshatriya?
The means of European civilization is the sword; of the Aryans, the division into different varnas. This system of division into varnas is the stepping-stone to civilization, making one rise higher and higher in proportion to one's learning and culture. In Europe, it is everywhere victory to the strong and death to the weak. In the land of Bharata (India), every social rule is for the protection of the weak. Such is our ideal of caste, as meant for raising all humanity slowly and gently towards the realization of the great ideal of spiritual man, who is non-resisting, calm, steady, worshipful, pure and meditative. In that ideal there is God.
S,
It is unfortunate that Ravi and I disagree so strongly, but airing our disagreement does not go against Bhagavan's teachings. This is not merely some abstract philosophical point, this goes to the very core of how we live our lives, the principle of ahimsa.
I am not trying to do violence to Ravi or to the people of India. That is already being done, even now, and that is not something to walk past indifferently or merely say "that's their karma".
Sri Ramana said that it was a false approach to not interfere with violence when it occurs. He once remarked about how wrong it would be for a man to walk past a woman being raped, and merely remark, "well, that's Brahman". He said it was appropriate to intervene and stop the violence if possible. And that is what we are talking about here - stopping the violence and oppression and discrimination that is going on in the name of caste and varna and sanatana dharma. It is appropriate to at least make efforts in that direction, even if we cannot completely change it. We can certainly disassociate our spirituality from it, and make it clear that this has nothing to do with genuine dharma of any kind.
A big part of putting an end to that violence and oppression is to change people's attitudes. I think Ravi's attitude really does need to change, and perhaps speaking out will help him see that. Perhaps not. I am not going on crusade here, I am just responding to something I see that is deeply inappropriate, especially on a forum devoted to Sri Ramana, who did not see caste distinctions and did not discriminate against devotees on that basis. I know there are many spiritual teachers in India who uphold caste and defend its crimes as part of the necessary price to pay for its alleged benefits. Sri Ramana never supported such notions. He was not an outspoken reformer, but he quietly disregarded such modes of thought and action whenever possible.
I fully agree with Ravi's notion that one cannot ignore the larger social sphere, but disgree strongly with his notion of how spiritual principles should organize themselves there. Sri Ramana's teachings as applied to the collective makes no room for the kind of harm done by any such system. Caste and varna are acceptable as customs as long as they do not breed violence, discrimination, privilege and division. When they do, as they have for centuries and at present, they must be called out and not allowed to perpetuate their sins without some kind of intervention, within the limits of sound and sane speech and action.
Broken Yogi,
" If a dalit can be a great sage, then he can also be a priest, a warrior, a businessman, or function perfectly well in any area of society. No man is “untouchable”, and to impose that status upon him and his children, generation after generation, is a terrible injustice, an act of violence, an evil. This ought to be clear to any sensible person capable of human empathy."
Friend,you say that you understand the Varna system and the above does not seem to bring it out.I have already posted the rationale behind this organization;I have also posted how this is a flexible system-how Rajarishi Viswamitra aspired and became Brahma Rishi.
All functions and divisions are equally to be valued and dignity of Labour is paramount.
This does not mean that 'untouchability' is not there,as I have explained this is not to be viewed as a Stigma.Your whole 'conjecture' is based on this stigmatizing of 'untouchables'.Let me draw from Dr David Frawley(vamadeva Sastri-an American)on the rationale behind 'untouchability',from his book-"How I became a Hindu':
Untouchability is also misunderstood. It was
originally a matter of social purity, reflecting the
principle of non-violence. Brahmins could not eat
out of utensils in which meat or other impure food
articles had been cooked. This led to a ban on
eating with non-Brahmins; particularly those who
had impure forms of livelihood like butchers. This
led eventually to a ban on association with such
How I Became a Hindu – David Frawley
143
people.
Untouchability arose from an excessive pursuit of
purity, like the purity of a monk who could not
associate with those who worked in bars or
taverns. Unfortunately this untouchability became
extreme and has become a bane on Hindu society.
But it is hardly the same situation as the rich
European aristocracy who would not mingle with
peasants."
-----------------------------------
There is more to this 'untouchability'-the one(A Brahmin) who gets up from sleep is akin to one who has risen from 'Death' and is expected to take a bath before he can physically mingle with the rest.Likewise there are a thousand such restrictions that even if allowed to be a Brahmin,one will choose not to be one!It is indeed very arduous to be a Brahmin.No degree of so called incentives can goad one to become a Brahmin(the so called Privilege!)and in all probability,the ' newly privileged one' would run away!It is only when one grows up as a child with this sort of austere Lifestyle that one can adjust to this Lifestyle.
Ditto with other Varnas as well-it is only when one is inducted young that one can be dipped in 'colour' and become that 'colour'.
The Kshatriya of those days had to depend on his Physical courage and valour and not like today where one may sit cozily and fire a cruize missile to hit a target!Yes,even a weakling will be okay to do that sort of a 'Military job'.
to be continued.....
Broken Yogi,
"Further, to claim that it is their karma, that God has willed this upon such people, is a pointless self-rationalization. If I steal your wallet, rob your home, abuse your children, debase your wife, and then tell you it is your karma, the will of God, and that therefore you have no right to complain, how seriously will you take that rationalization? "
I do not understand how you got this grotesque idea of 'Karma'!If you equate being born into a 'Dalit' family (or a Brahmin family)is tantamount to all the above that you have said,this is proof enough the sort of Brainwash that has happened.Do you mean to say all Dalits had to suffer such a fate.Such things happen to all people and there is no need to discriminate between the Brahmins and the dalits like you seem to be doing.The Brahmins had to face the brunt of the Mohammedan invasions and whatever you have mentioned did happen to them.These are purely 'antisocial' activities and they need to be handled as such and not get mixed with 'Varna Dharma' or Religion.There is simply no sanction in sastras for such despicable activities.
All I have said is that to be born in wherever family is a Result of one's Karma.To undergo whatever suffering is also part of that karma.This 'suffering' cannot be understood in the ordinary sense of the term.One may have to 'suffer' by being born in a drunkard's family and imbibing that habit.Others may view it as 'Privileged'!
As can be clearly seen,these are not to be viewed from the superficial point of view ,but from the wholistic angle.
-----------------------------------
Friend,I am amused when you say that 'ravi's attitude needs to be changed'and that you are trying to do that.Please leave that to me!
I do not aim to change your belief as I have already said.I have carried out this discussion to clear the smog and smoke over some of these core values that have been the vanguard of Sanathana Dharma.
Broken Yogi,
"when he is engaged in serving another for pay, he is in Shudra-hood; when he is busy transacting some some piece of business for profit, on his account, he is a Vaishya; when he fights to right wrongs then the qualities of a Kshatriya come out in him; and when he meditates on God, or passes his time in conversation about Him, then he is a Brahmana. "
Yes,it is important to understand this.Just like the Gunas Satva,Rajas and Tamas-the three are always mixed (it is only in a sage ,we have what is called Shuddha Satva),and the predominance is what determines who a person is.Quite the same in the Varna-and Sanathana Dharma had maximised the potential and given the varnas an opportunity to strengthen the 'predominant' varna.This has a huge advantage in that by large,it runs on its own without the need for frequent reforms.No one is anyway divorced from the Spiritual pursuit which is purely a 'private' affair,be it the Brahmin or the Dalit.This is not like the Muslim or the Christian where Public worship is considered the main form of worship,irrespective of what one may be doing privately.
There is a wonderful balance and the beauty of this is something that cannot be effaced by whatever aberrations that are of purely social origin.
Wherever there are exceptions as dictated by the Predominant Varna,such a change was accommodated in a smooth manner,and respected.A Kshatriya could become a Brahmin like viswamitra or a Brahmin could become a Khatriya like Dronacharya.
There are many stories of Kings who have stood up impartially wherever such crimes have been commited.
one of the Legendary stiories is that of the Chola King(Manu neethi Cholan)who compensated the grievance of a cow whose calf was overrun by his son's chariot.It is said that a bell with a rope used to be hund near the doorsteps of his palace and whoever wanted justice can ring it at all hours.The cow went and pulled this rope and it is believed that the King after due enquiry understood the grievance of the cow and ruled a similiar treatment on his son,the prince.
There are many such stories of the sacrificing nature of the 'Orthodox Brahmin' but these are not convenient for the political leaders or the Propagandists.
Please do not mixup social evils(always exceptions than the rule)with the spiritual dimensions of this system.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
broken yogi & ravi: i think everyone who has come to bhagavAn has at least a rudimentary understanding of what's good & what's not good, isn't it? beyond that, all belief is bondage, including that of 'ahimsa', for only a bhagavAn really knows what 'ahimsa' really is. as long as we are entangled within our so-called minds, what ahimsa are we talking about? after all, bhagavAn also said that as long as one hasn't realised one's true self, one is culpable of 'brahma-hatyA'!
you and ravi come from very different cultures, and the way your arguments have been flowing, it's clear that no consensus is possible. to argue on social structures and deliberate over what is & what isn't wrong is an extremely complex terrain, which more often than not is bound to culminate in objections than agreements. the only 'beliefs' where people could argue and sort-of arrive at an unequivocal understanding are mathematical propositions, and even that is far from being perfect :-) what to talk of the rest?
it isn't hard to see that bhagavAn emphasised only one thing for over half a century - 'enquire & realise, and all questions will be answered'. everything else is a distraction, no matter how noble or ignoble they may or may not be :-)
There is a dialogue in Talks where Maharshi answers a devotee on this exact subject. I might look for it. I remember he brought up "deep sleep". And something about how the devotee could realize a state in which he did not see such distinctions. He also brought up how despite Ghandiji's efforts, the Harijans had an inferiority complex and so would not let themselves be initiated by him as Brahmins. "So matter's stand as they are". Essentially he was directing the devotee to turn within, rather then look without. I think he was outraged that caste was observed at Ramansramam. I'm sure David knows what dialogue I'm talking about. I feel like it could end this debate.
Broken Yogi, i think you are alot older than you say you are, and you posed these questions to Maharshi -lol. No, seriously, for me, anyway, this ends this debate. I copied this off some weird internet site.
22nd August, 1938Talk 507D. DevoteeM. Ramana Maharshi
D.: Aurobindo does not approve of castes. Do you approve of them?M.:Â.As for Aurobindo, you ask him.Â.As for my opinion, how does it matter to you? How will it be of use to you? Have you got any opinion on the matter? That alone will affect you, not the opinion of others.
D.: I do not approve of the caste system. Mahatma’s opinion is valuable as a guidance. I want your blessings in my attempts.Â.M.: Mahatma has told you to seek and find your Self. You will not do it but require his blessings.
D.: I am trying to follow the instructions. But caste-distinction is painful. It must go.M.: To whom does it cause pain?D.: The members of the society...
M.:Â.It is you who say it. There are countries where there are no such distinctions of caste. Are they free from trouble? There are wars,internecine struggle, etc. Why do you not remedy the evils there?
D.: There are troubles here also.M.:Â.Differences are always there. There are not only human beings, but also animals, plants, etc. The state of affairs cannot be helped.
D.: We do not mind the animals, etc., at present.M.: Why not? If they could speak they would claim equality with you and dispute your claims no less vigorously than human beings.D.: But we cannot help it. It is God’s work.
M.: If that is God’s work then the other part is your work, is that so?D.: It is man-made distinction.M.: You need not notice these distinctions. There is diversity in the world.Â.A unity runs through the diversity. The Self is the same in all.Â.There is no difference in spirit. All the differences are external and superficial. You find out the Unity and be happy.
The pain of diversity is overcome by the joy of the perception of unity. Moreover, a king may disguise himself as a servant. That makes no difference in the person.D.: I do not object to differences. But the claims of superiority are wrong.
M.: There are differences in the limbs of one’s body. When the hand touches the foot the hand is not defiled. Each limb performs its function. Why do you object to differences?D.: The people feel the injustice of caste distinction. It must be rooted out.
M.: You can individually arrive at the state where such distinctions are not perceived and be happy. How can you hope to reform the world? Even if you try you cannot succeed.Â.Kavyakantha Ganapati Sastri offered to initiate Harijans with mantras and make Brahmins of them. But the Harijans did not come forward to accept the offer.
That shows they are themselves afflicted by an inferiority complex.Remove that complex first before you try to reform others.Moreover, why do you go to places where such distinctions are observed and cause pain to yourself? Why should you not seek places where they are not observed and be happy there?
Gandhiji also tries to bring about equality.Â.He is also up against the barrier of inferiority complex afflicting the lower orders.Â.He cannot enforce his views on others. He observes non-violence. So matters stand as they are.
D.: We must work to obliterate caste-distinctions.M.: Then do it. If you have succeeded in the world, then see if the distinctions persist in this place.D.: This must be the first place where I want to effect the reform.
M.: Why do you exert yourself so much to effect reforms? Go to sleep and see if there are differences. There you obliterate differences without any effort. (Laughter).External differences are bound to persist, however hard we may try to obliterate them. The attempts of so-called social reformers, to do away with such classes or divisions as varnasrama has created, have not succeeded, but have only created new divisions and added a few more castes or classes to the already existing ones, such as the Brahmo-Samajists and the Arya-Samajists.Â.
The only solution is for each man to realise his true nature.
Broken yogi is quite convincing. His opinions thoughtful and measured. Of course Ravi has a vested interest in explaining away the excesses of the caste system.
I wonder if a dalit, sudra or adivasi would argue with such passion and zealotry about the strengths of the caste system.
hj
Friends,
what exactly is the meaning of "upadesha sahasri" (Sankaras book title)?
Is this right translated with "A Thousand Teachings"?
You know, I was re-reading an interview with David Godman. And there were a bunch of things that struck me. Being here at SAT Temple, Papaji's statements about how, once you have reached the Guru, then nothing need be done. Something along those lines. That really strikes me over-archingly true. Nome advocates intense practice. But I feel more benefit letting the grace of being here act on me, and letting their instruction slay my ego, then doing something on my own. It's more my devotion to the cause of letting my ego be humbled that really helps (which sometimes hurts) Nome's words agree with Ramana's on effort. And it struck me, David Godman was saying that Papaji and Ramana clearly disagreed on the importance of effort. Honestly, from my experience, I don't really think jnanis have 'teachings' (in the sense of a philosophy). Their teachings are what they are, and since what they are is the same, their teachings are the same, and what they say, is meant to engender the same result in the person they are talking to (even if they use different words to engender that result), or undermines the vasanas. And really is beyond even concepts of volition like that. Because there isn't even that much duality. The jnani speaks from that statement in the Upanishads, that there are none in bondage, none liberated, none striving for liberation. That is the highest Truth. I don't think they are really even laying out a path (the path is our approach to understanding it, and not getting caught up in our alternative ignorance which seems to inevitably fail), there words when spoken are the Existence itself that they speak of, along with their silences which are all the Silence (whether talking or not). So I don't know if it makes sense in my experience that Ramana and Papaji had any disagreement. Their words appeared to differ in a few places. "teachings" seem to imply a duality, or that there are unrealized. I mean, I am unrealized, but the practice is to eliminate "him", or let "him" be eliminated. -lol Maybe that's the difference between devotion and inquiry. -lol
S. and Ravi,
Let me address caste in relation to the practice of self-enquiry, since that is the primary focus of Sri Ramana's teaching.
The first thing to mention is that the practice of self-enquiry, while primarily directed towards oneself, has natural and indisputable implications for the whole of one's life, one's relationship with others, and one's conduct. Most directly, we see that we are not a separate self, an ego, or a body - and neither is anyone else.
Self-enquiry shows us that in reality there are no "others", there is only one Self with many bodies. This is not merely an intellectual understanding, it is a natural disposition in consciousness that applies to everything about us, inside and out. Thus, we find it natural to live by Jesus' admonition to "love the Lord your God with all your heart and spirit, and you neighbor as your self."
Self-enquiry undermines and finally destroys bit by bit the sense of separate self, and the sense that others are in any way intrinsically different from us or each other. One no longer makes conceptual distinctions about others, one does not classify them by this or that artificial label or status. One simply accepts them as they are, without qualification or conditions. Thus, self-enquiry leads naturally to a disposition of unconditional love towards others.
This does not mean that there are no practical distinctions in life. One does not literally presume everyone is the same height or sex or character, one is able to see the bodily and mental distinctions in function and quality quite well, but one does not confuse these with the self of each person, which is Divine and non-separate. Nor does one consider any of these qualities and functions pure or impure - all purity is of the heart, the self, and nothing else is either pure nor impure.
It is easy to see that people differ in outer appearance and function. Even in the west, where there are social classes but no fixed castes or jatis, we still can see that there are all types of people. There are priestly and scholarly types, there are politicians, military and police types, there are businessmen, tradesmen, professionals, skilled laborers, unskilled laborers, and there are those who are handicapped, and so on. There is a wide range of human types, and people fall rather naturally into one or more of these categories, while yet retaining the qualities of many.
Self-enquiry does not erase these basic facts of human nature. However, it does not define people by them either. They are just the various qualities of life, like the gunas, representing various vasanas and samskaras. Self-enquiry is not at war with these, nor does it try to organize them. It recognizes that the Self transcends and merely witnesses these, allowing them to find their natural order in the play of human life.
The problem with caste and jati is that it imposes upon this natural order a fixed social classification that actually interferes with the natural order of things. The desire for stability and security leads men to impose artificial social customs upon a diversity that is simply not created by hereditary or one's social environment.
If there really were fixed genetic or social groups in which these qualities were passed on, it would be one thing. Then human beings would be composed of different species or widely differing races or breeds, as in dogs. But it is not so ordered by nature or heavenly design. It is human beings who have imposed this design.
Cont.
Cont.
Caste is merely a social custom, imposed artificially upon human beings without regard to their actual individual nature and qualities. One who practices self-enquiry is able to see this rather quickly, because his attention is to the Self in all, not to the differences in the body-mind, and since he is not attached to the differences in the body-mind, he is able to see how those differences arise without prejudice and can relate to all of those differences without imposing a fixed set of categories and social conventions upon them.
Sri Ramana related to every individual differently and uniquely, apprehending directly their various qualities and needs, and responding to them as they were. He was able to do this because he accepted both himself and others exactly as they were, without imposing mind and concepts upon them. He did not relate to others based on caste or jati precisely because he did not see these in people, at least not as prescribed by convention. He would of course respect a person's qualities and inclinations, their natural varnic and gunic characters, but he saw such things directly, as they actually were, rather than as society does. And in this way he was able to serve people in the best possible manner, seeing them directly as the Self, and yet also taking into account their various vasanas and qualities as they were.
This was a teaching in itself for others to emulate as best they could. Sri Ramana was not a social preacher, he taught in that area by example. It was for others to simply observe how he related to each one as they were, and to notice that there was nothing random or conceptual in his approach to devotees, there was always the direct apprehension of the total person and the response to that person as they were. This is what one learns from self-enquiry, and the practice of self-enquiry naturally produces this sort of social grace and kindness and empathy. It is the basis for a real human culture not based on social conventions, but on direct attention to the Self in all.
So we cannot say that self-enquiry is only something that affects our inner sense of self. It also affects our entire life and relations, because these depend entirely upon our inner self and the assumption we project upon the world around us. Self-enquiry show us how to function from a different perspective and see one another differently. We are naturally freed from social conditioning and convention, and relate to one another as a single Self with many bodies. We begin to see that everything we thought we knew about ourselves and others was a lie. And so we begin to live this truth, to oneself and others, even by the most simple activities. That is how Sri Ramana instructed, by simply living in this direct way to those around him. There was no room for caste or jati in such a life, other than as a convention one sometimes had to tolerate because of social custom. To Sri Ramana, it was a simple, gregarious life among equals.
Cont.
cont.
The second important matter that must be mentioned is that the practice of self-enquiry also naturally leads one to question everything in one's life. Self-enquiry is of course a question that points to the very heart of one's own being, and thus, as one begins to question this assumption of separate self and ego, the asana of questioning naturally begins to take over one's approach to everything. If the core of one's being is subject to question, so is everything else, and this cannot really be avoided. One no longer takes for granted the assumptions we have made about ourselves and one another, and even ordinary social conventions are questioned as well. Those that don't seem to have a real basis in our experience are naturally discarded, and those that seem to be founded on basic realities become useful for ordinary living.
Thus, it is simply natural for those practicing self-enquiry in the manner Sri Ramana prescribed to begin to question such matters as caste and varna. It is not that one necessarily rejects everything about them, but the attitude of questioning naturally reveals that much of what they purport to describe or prescribe simply is not there. They are seen to be as weak and ephemeral as the ego itself, and are even understood to derive from egoity, and not from something fixed by God or even our natural human qualities. So in those who practice self-enquiry, the sense of caste is weakened and the practices related to it often appear to be unnecessary and even counter-productive to a life of self-realizing practice and faith.
However, it must also be mentioned that Sri Ramana was wary of criticizing any aspect of anyone religious life, lest people lose faith in it. Sri Ramana did not wish to force people to question their religious beliefs or faith, since faith to him was more important even than intellectually correct understanding, and the path of self-enquiry should only be taken up by those willing to “risk all” on the process of undermining the ego and all its attendant beliefs and assumptions. For those not so inclined, it is important for them to preserve their faith, even if that means continuing to believe in things and practices that Ramana felt were in error, or unsubstantiated by a deeper inspection. So Ramana did not try to correct people's belief in caste or jati or any number of traditional beliefs and practices, unless of course they were fully devoted to his path of self-enquiry and were capable of withstanding the nakedness that is brought on by its practice.
Most people of faith simply do not question their faith, they affirm it and all its aspects, and they do not practice self-enquiry because it would tend to undermine their unquestioning faith in their traditional approach. And this is simply as it is for many people, and those who practice self-enquiry must accept this and not go to war with those who adhere to the traditional approach to faith. In self-enquiry, one cultivates a different kind of faith, a faith in the process of questioning itself, in which one has faith even as the ground is taken out from under one's feet bit by bit. This is a relatively dangerous path, in that it requires great faith that one will be supported by reality, and that one does not need the conventional supports of traditional faith, but only a radical faith in the power of the Self to keep one going even as everything one questions is undermined and falls away.
cont.
Cont.
So I think with Ravi and myself we see a conflict here between two different approaches, and two different kinds of faith. Traditional faith is not inferior to the kind of faith that self-enquiry engenders, but they are very different paths, and they are not always compatible with one another. The attitude of questioning everything can seem threatening to the traditional approach, and the traditional ways of faith may seem to be obstructions to the practice of self-enquiry.
The problem for the traditional path of faith is that the modern world, while certainly not devoted to self-enquiry, is yet very much growing in the inclination to question everything, including traditional religious paths. And yet there is also a reaction to this among traditional believers, that leads them increasingly towards fundamentalist viewpoints as protection against this questioning and doubt. And that is why I think that Ramana's approach of self-enquiry has increasing relevance to the modern religious debates taking place, since it offers not a compromise, but an alternative path that those who are inclined to question and doubt may engage that does not require them to adopt traditional beliefs and practices. Likewise, some who are trying to defend the traditional path but finding themselves undermined by some of the very sensible doubts and questions raised by the critics of religion, can find a new kind of faith through self-enquiry, one that is rooted in the origins of all religions, including sanatana dharma, but which does not require blanket belief and acceptance of traditional faith.
So there is no genuine need for conflict here. I do not wish to undermine Ravi's faith in the traditional path. As an aside, I do have the Sankaracharya of Kanchi's book “Introduction to Hindu Dharma” and it has been a valuable reference book for me on the traditional precepts of sanatana dharma. But I am invariably inclined towards Sri Ramana's path of self-enquiry, and this simply does not allow me to accept such precepts or traverse the traditional path. I have already questioned and parted from many of my own culture's religious and even secular assumptions, and I see no need to affirm those of other cultures, when they would only be undermined by self-enquiry in any case. But for Ravi it is a different story. I would only hope that in spite of his faith in caste and varna, that he still relate to all others as his very Self, and act towards them as he would wish they would act towards him.
Rodger Rodger
Rodeger Rodger 2
David,
You were mentioning about rating comments. Have you considered using 'Reactions':Following is a tutorial:
http://buzz.blogger.com/2008/11/reactions-easily-engage-your-readers.html
-Z
David,
The Reactions info I posted earlier is meant for Posts and not comments.
Initial comments on your problems.Once you use Disqus all comment data is stored on Disqus servers. So on your posts if I use Clemens' 'Recent Comments' widget to post a comment that data is stored on blogger.com website and if I use the Disqus links to make a comment that comment will be stored on disqus servers.
Unless a change is made to 'Recent Comments' script to pickup data from your disqus web location they will not be in sync.
I installed Clemens' 'Recent Comments' script on a trial blog and it works fine for me.I also installed disqus and then imported the old comments.I am exactly in the same position as you.On top of it I have also installed a Recent Comments widget authored by Disqus.Go to the Tools section on Disqus site and you will find it.My trial blog is :
vijnanamaya.blogspot.com
One solution is, there is a 'Recent Comments' script that disqus gives you in the 'Tools' section. This only takes a couple of minutes to install.Although it is not as good as Clemens' script it does the job.
I see on Disqus help blogs that Clemens has already gone throuh this problem.If you are keen to use Clemens' widget your best bet is to contact Clemens.Temporary solution is to use the Disqus widget and disable Clemens' untill he can fix it.Before you do this you will have to see if you can import back all comments from disqus on to blogger incase you decide to abandon disqus.Your best bet is to work with trial sites untill you are sure.Please send me an email if you want the login information for my trial site which I created today.My email : fame1390@gmail.com
-z
David,
There is also a sync facility between disqus and blogger.If you go to Tools section of Disqus admin page then click Import/Export and select Blogger symbol that should take you to a page which gives you an option to Enable sync between both sites. As I tried blogger puts all synced comments into spam folder.
If you want to use Disqus it is best to use the 'Recent Comments' utility provided by Disqus and remove Clemens' widget for now.
Have a look at my trial site:
http://vijnanamaya.blogspot.com/
-z
I was surprised how much C. S. Lewis, this being his only surviving audio, sounds so much like a Vedantist. Even a bit of a jnani-like wisdom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHxs3gdtV8A
I don't see how to post as my Google/Blogger ID in Disqus.
Things have been going good here at SAT. I'm just commenting, because I accidentally entered the comment section. I talk to Nome, frequently. It takes me very deep. But I also have many of the same issues come up. But slowly, getting better. It's great!!!! Satsang is the greatest thing in the world!!!! Highly recommend!!!!
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