Two times in the last twelve months the 'Open Thread' feature of this blog has started to malfunction when the comments approached a thousand. This time I am pre-empting a possible failure by starting a new one. Please use this new one in future, rather than the one that began in March.
Sri Ramana Maharshi
Welcome
I propose to use this blog primarily to air my occasional musings on any matters relating to the life and teachings of Ramana Maharshi. There will also be occasional contributions about Arunachala, the sacred mountain where Sri Ramana spent all of his adult life.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
590 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 590 Newer› Newest»Anonymous,
"There is a lot of non-sense in the scriptures in the spirit of the phrase used above 'common phrase'.This phrase in this context also means 'a way of saying things'.For months I wondered many many times why the Jnaanis and a lot of scriptures use the word 'Satchitaananda' "
We tend to dismiss 'word' and 'thought' because we have trivialized everything!The words in scriptures are not to be viewed in this sense.If you are interested,I recommend Sri Aurobindo's excellent 'secret of the Vedas'.
Here is an excerpt from the fifth chapter-'The Philological method of the Veda'
"We see everywhere this use of language dominating the
Word of the Vedic hymns. It was the great device by which
the ancient Mystics overcame the difficulty of their task. Agni
for the ordinary worshipper may have meant simply the god of
the Vedic fire, or it may have meant the principle of Heat and
Light in physical Nature, or to the most ignorant it may have
meant simply a superhuman personage, one of the many “givers
of wealth”, satisfiers of human desire. How suggest to those
capable of a deeper conception the psychological functions of
the God? The word itself fulfilled that service. For Agni meant
the Strong, it meant the Bright, or even Force, Brilliance. So
it could easily recall to the initiated, wherever it occurred, the
idea of the illumined Energy which builds up the worlds and
which exalts man to the Highest, the doer of the great work, the
Purohit of the human sacrifice."
To make sense of these 'seed words',we need to develop the intuitive faculty.The intellect cannot make sense of these 'passwords' like satchitananda.This intuitive faculty is what is called in the Veda as 'sarama' the hound of heaven-what sri Bhagavan calls as 'jnamali'(dog) in his akshara maNa mAlai,verse 39:
39. (a) (A dog can scent out its master); am I then worse than a dog? Steadfastly will I seek Thee and regain Thee, O Arunachala!
Intellectually we tend to interpret that sri Bhagavan is referring to the analogy of a dog tracing the scent of its master',
intuitively it means a much more intimate ,actual (not an anology,not an inferential)process.
Namaskar.
From SuriNagamma letters:
http://bhagavan-ramana.org/ramana_maharshi/books/letters/letter242.html
-----------------------------------
16th May, 1949
...In 1938, a Malayalee devotee by name Sankaran wrote
Bhagavan’s biography in Malayalam and brought it to
Bhagavan saying, “We are thinking of sending it to the press.
Bhagavan may be pleased to go through the book before
publication.†Bhagavan thereupon made a few corrections
after informing the people around him. It seems that in the
book it was stated in one place that people of all castes could
study the Vedas. Bhagavan noticed this and corrected it to
say that all castes could practise the Vedas by inserting the
word abhyasa in place of the word adhyayana. As Ramanatha
Iyer was there in the hall at the time, he heard all this. He
did not know at the time that there was a difference between
the words abhyasa and adhyayana. Hence some people thought
that Bhagavan had approved of adhyayana (Study of Vedas)
by all castes. With the intention of telling Kunjuswami about
this Sankaran went home as soon as Bhagavan went into the
hall for food.
It seems in those days Kunjuswami and Ramanatha Iyer
were living in a room by the side of the path leading to
Palakothu. Both of them sat on a platform in their verandahs
after food and, during a discussion about sundry matters,
Ramanatha Iyer said, ‘Look, Kunjuswami. From tomorrow,
you also can do Vedadhyayanam. Bhagavan has decided about
it today.†Bhagavan, who usually goes to Palakothu after food,
happened to be returning from there at the time and having
heard this, said, “What? Is it I that decided thus? I never
said all castes could do adhyayana.â€
Both of them were startled by this sudden interruption
and got up and with folded hands, Ramanatha Iyer said, “It
is only a short time back Bhagavan had approved of
Sankaran’s biography. It is stated that people of all castes
could study Vedas (Vedadhyayana).†“Yes. I did go through
the book. I corrected, however, the word adhyayana into
‘abhyasa (practice)’†said Bhagavan. “Is there a difference
between adhyayana and abhyasa?†they asked. “Why not? Veda
means jnana. So I said Vedabhyasa (practice of jnana). That’s
all. I never said adhyayana (study) can be done,†said
Bhagavan. Ramanatha Iyer replied, “I was not able to
understand the difference. Only now when Bhagavan has
explained to me clearly, I could comprehend the whole thing.
Unless it is clearly stated that adhyayana should not be done
by all castes, it will not be possible for ordinary people to
understand.†Bhagavan said, “Let people understand in
whatever way they like; why should we bother? Are we
responsible for all the misunderstandings in this world?†So
saying Bhagavan went towards the Ashram.
-----------------------------------
For everything said there is always a context even in the case of 'Eternal or Ultimate Truth':
And the context may include one or many of the following :
1)Maturity, motive,usefullness and such of the Questioner/Subject/Audience
2)Intended audience:something in private and else in public
3)Style and temperament of the author/book
4)Customisations according to the eligibility of the questioner5)Linguistic,Diction and such other abilities
6)Memory and maturity of the person recording so he can reproduce accurately
7)Socio-political issues of the time of authorship and the current time
8)Similarly Cultural sensitivities
9)Language and poetical traditions
10)All the evils of Translations,Commentaries,Commentaries on commentaries
11)Authenticity of the source and original context and intent lost over centuries
12)Emotional and Subjective Hagiographies
13)All the evils of passing on by oral traditions
...After so many filters we get to the source of the scripture/author
...and then it depends on the maturity,motive,intellect,emotion and such of the reader to understand the author fully.
hence the DEVIL.
Religion verses science: The mind of God, the face of God, the hand of God. The imagery has such a powerful pull and such a deep enigmatic resonance you would have to be superhuman not to use it. Even Albert Einstein used it several times, most famously when he had doubts about quantum mechanics: ''I cannot believe that God plays dice with the cosmos.''
He also said: ''I am not interested in this phenomenon or that phenomenon. I want to know God's thoughts - the rest are mere details.'' It's a good line, but unhelpful.
Roger Highfield, editor of New Scientist, recently cited several instances of Einstein and Hawking using God phraseology. Indeed, in one instance Hawking said: ''Einstein was wrong when he said, God does not play dice. Consideration of black holes suggests, not only that God does play dice, but that he sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen.''
Anonymous,
I appreciate the filters that you talk of-this is exactly the reason why Sri Bhagavan has made the distinction between Abhyasa and Adhyayana!The discipline that Adhyayana calls forth is not something that all and sundry can summon.Hence it is only the few who can do veda Adhyayana!
The vedas have been beautifully preserved like a Digital recording-as a pure sound value-just the chanting of it has its intrinsic value.This was done at the time when Sri Bhagavan graced with his physical presence,and continues till today.
Here is an excerpt from the sage of Kanchi:
Study of The Vedas
The state of things in this country for the past 100 years or so is such that the Vedas are being brought to the notice of the people of this country, the land of the Vedas, through the published works of Western Orientalists. While we should acknowledge with gratitude the invaluable contributions made by these research-scholars of the West in classifying, printing and preserving the Vedas, so far as we in India are concerned, the primary purpose the Vedas, namely to memorise and recite correctly, with proper accents, or adhyayana, cannot be served by these publications. The Vedas printed and preserved in libraries will (in the absence of regular study and recitation) eventually acquire only a museum value, and the future generations reading these published works may marvel at the wonderful things contained in them.
The Vedas are intended to serve a different purpose. They have to be learnt by heart, understanding the correct way of pronouncing the mantras by listening to the rendering of the mantras by the guru (teacher). The Veda mantras so learnt should become the guide in our daily life, in our Karmaanushtaana, Tapas, Isvara aaradhana, etc. If, in India, the Vedas retain their original vitality even today, it is because these hymns are being continuously repeated by students and teachers of the Vedas, and the purity of the sounds and accents of the words are retained in that process. It is only by practising the Vedic injunctions that we can obtain the grace of God, both for our individual welfare and for the welfare of the whole world. That is why the mere preservation of the Vedas in well-bound volumes cannot secure us the benefits for which they are intended.
In fact the Vedas are never intended to be written down and read. Veda Adhyayana implied hearing from the lips of the teacher and repeating after him. That is why in ancient Tamil classics, the Vedas are referred to as Ezhutaakkilavi , unwritten book. Veda Paatakaas, who learn from books, are included among the six classes of inferior scholars. The other five classes are those who recite the Vedas musically, those who recite very fast, those who shake their heads while reciting, those who do not know the meaning, and those who have a poor voice."
The above excerpt is from a talk given in 1958.
The science of sound is something that transcends all boundaries-The vedas are primarily sounds and the 'word' that represent these sounds are naturally linked to the sound content.
Do we even have the curiosity to explore these wonderful realms?This calls for humility and openness,and a thirst for knowledge that sets aside all cynicism(the DEVIL that you have mentioned);If despite our earnest attempts we do not find anything that interests us,to leave it at that.Not to conclude that all that is meaningless.
Namaskar.
Hi Ravi,
Thanks for your response. Regarding the Sanskrit root-words and play of words if we take the example of 'Brahma Sutras' Sankara, Madhava and Ramanuja all wrote commentaries on Brahma Sutras and they all differ. Madhava who is regarded as Vaayuputra or re-incarnation of Bheema, Anjaneya had superhuman command of scriptures and Sanskrit.The scholarship of Ramanuja and Sankara is well known. Madhava is claimed to have flown from an unknown spot in the farthest reaches of Himalayas to meet Vyasa in a spiritual realm and showed him his commentary. Ramanuja had a vision of Vyasa driving on his chariot some time before his death. Sankara's command of Sanskrit is unparallel. Now they all came up with different meanings of the Brahma Sutras although all the three had super human abilities in Sanskrit language, intellect, devotion, purity, motivation, etc.
Regarding the posting on ‘adhyayana’ what I understand is Bhagavan found himself cornered on the issue of caste unintentionally once again; just like the incident where his nephew wanted to sit with non-brahmins in the dining hall. Here Bhagavan used his usual smartness to get out of it because he always lived by example when he advised ‘remember what you came here for’. He believed ‘I am the body’ is the root disease and all other social, cultural, political, economical evils will fall away once the original disease is cured. There were many such incidents:a famous female Freedom fighter pressed him on state of women in the society;questions on upliftment of the poor,Indian independence movement, caste, religion etc. Imagine if the statement remained he would have upset some Brahmins afraid of their livelihood and Bhagavan always respected the tradition of the time whether good or bad and focusing on what he came for. So he used his play of words. I think the issue has nothing to do with Brahmins and Vedas. I have come to these conclusions which are I am afraid different from yours because I used a lot of the filters I already mentioned in my previous post.
Regarding learning Vedas I remember Bhagavan’s reply to one of his devotees who wanted to learn Vedas to represent Ramanasramam in a Veda bash and his replies of gathering bookish knowledge in SuriNagamma’s letters. The gist is one life is not enough and the problems of ego and it’s limited usefulness in the goal.
Thanks for your recommendation of Aurobindo’s book which I downloaded and hey it’s big and verbose and so far only managed to flip a few pages. May I suggest a wonderful book: ‘Alberuni’s India’. He is a Persian Genius who came to India and learnt Sanskrit, religion apart from a host of other kalas. I loved his account.You can download it free from scrib.com
Anonymous,
I understand what you have to say about Sri Aurobindo's writings.I started reading his writings in my college days-I did not try to understand word for word or sentence by sentence.I found myself immersed in the 'atmosphere'-the 'feel' of it.
Yes,it is not a learned dissertation or a thesis set forth.He has captured the very spirit of the vedas in this wonderful work.
I do not read much these days.I will checkout the Book that you have mentioned.
Coming to Sri Bhagavan getting cornered by 'Brahmins'-I also had thought disparagingly about varna ashrama Dharma;until I happen to read what the sage of Kanchi had to say on this wonderful subject.I now realize that the varnashrama Dharma is one of the Brilliant and innovative,as well as the most Practical Social structure evolved by the Ancient wisdom-that allowed individual freedom and creativity and yet promoting social Harmony.
The idea of the Brahmin dominating the rest and arrogating to themselves all the spiritual and cultural Riches-is a political invention!
If you know Tamil,I will recommend 'Deivathin Kural' -talks of the Sage of Kanchi.The Varna Ashrama Dharma is beautifully brought out-The Brahmin's power lay in his renunciation.His whole life is offered for the welfare of the society,not even for his salvation.Do we have such Brahmins!May be,there are still a few left!
Yes,Sankara,Ramanuja and Madhwa all interpreted the SAME BRAHMA SUTRA or UPANISHADS in their own ways.Yet all of them never ever doubted the ORIGINAL.All masters therefore say that no individual or Master is beyond the Vedas.The Vedas are impersonal and as much as one is sincere,to that degree one may discover the facets of Truth.A Master may at best exemplify ONE or a FEW aspects of Truth.As Sri Ramakrishna used to say-Even Sukadeva is at the most a bigger Ant that can carry about 8grains of sugar!
This is a vast subject and it is not something that can be covered here.All I can say is that if one has an inclination and openness,there is a vast treasure house awaiting discovery.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Anonymous,
I happen to find the excerpts from Alberuni's india here:
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_kumar-v_alber.htm
May be that the original book may not have been captured properly in this extract,but I find that alberuni is only observing as an outsider,comparing what he observed with his tradition.To get to the heart of things,one needs to become an insider as it were.
One such person who could give an insider's perspective is Dr David Frawley alias Vamadeva sastri.Incidentally Dr Frawley developed his Mystic insights into the Vedic studies by drawing inspiration from Sri Aurobindo's 'Secret of the Veda'.You may read his review of this book in the Amazon.com columns.
This is what Sri M P Pandit(a great yogi and disciple of Sri Kapali sastri)has to say on Vama deva sastri:
Frawley is an Indian in an American body. The ease with which he enters into the spiritual of the Indian tradition and renders its deeper concepts in terms of modern thought shows an unusual familiarity with this ancient wisdom.
M.P. Pandit, Secretary of Sri Aurobindo Ashram
Dr Frawley's books are available online here:
HOW I BECAME A HINDU
MY DISCOVERY OF VEDIC DHARMA
Please visit:
http://www.hindubooks.org/david_frawley/how_i_became_a_hindu/index.htm
Here is an Excerpt:
The following book unfolds an intellectual and spiritual journey from the West to the East such as a number of people have traveled in recent times. This journey moves from the western world of materialism to the greater universe of consciousness that permeates India and was the basis of her older civilization.
As an inner journey it is more pilgrimage to the spiritual heart of India than an outer visit. Yet it is also a story marked by meetings with important people, friends and teachers who connected me with deeper teachings and guided me along the way. This journey is not only through space but also through time, into the ancient world and its spiritual culture, such as India has maintained better than any country. It is a reencounter with the spiritual roots of humanity that we have long forgotten or denigrated.
The book shows how the ancient Vedic world can come alive and touch us today, not only as a relic of the past but as an inspiration for the future. It is a return to the formative stages of humanity, before we directed our energy to the outer world and were still connected with our cosmic origins.
Most of us are familiar with accounts of how a person has changed from one religion to another, becoming a Christian, Muslim or a Buddhist. In the modern world we are coming to recognize pluralism in religion just as in culture, ethnicity or language. There is no more only one true religion for everyone than there is only one true race, language or way of life.
However, going from Christianity to Hinduism is a rarer story, particularly for a westerner, because Hinduism does not aim at conversion. Many people think that Hinduism does not take new members at all. It is also a more complex tale because Hinduism is not only a religion, but also a culture and, above all, a spiritual path.
To enter into Hindu dharma involves much more than a shift of belief or accepting a new prophet. To really understand Hindu dharma requires taking on a new way of life, of which religion is only one aspect. As a pluralistic system Hinduism does not require that we hold to a single belief or savior or give up an open pursuit of truth."
You may also like to explore other books by Dr Frawley available here.
Namaskar.
Of late, I have been reading Robert Adams' talks with interest.
http://itisnotreal.com/Collected_Works_of_Robert_Adams_Vol_1.pdf
I get the same 'vibe', if i may use this word, from Robert, as i do when i read Ramana and Nisargadatta. I think Robert is of the same ilk.
In his talks, Robert keeps going over and over and over this need to "apply" the practice. I like his style.
Although, he does say some things i dont resonate with. Such as the "right side of the chest" theme we are all familiar with. But perhaps he is just catering to some in his audience when he says these things.
Friends,
Those interested may download a pdf version of 'How I became a Hindu' by Dr David Frawley from this site:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ze1djmrg1dl
The Title of the book appears like a 'convertion' story but Dr Frawley goes onto explain that to become a Hindu is to be oneself!
How he finds Sri Bhagavan as Lord Skanda just like Sri Kavyakanta Ganapathy muni had divined earlier also makes for interesting and absorbing reading.Here is an excerpt from the book on Sri Bhagavan:
In the teachings of the Advaitic sage Ramana
Maharshi I discovered a Vedanta that was alive
and intellectually sophisticated, yet spiritually
profound and experiential. Ramana Maharshi was
like the quintessential sage, who perfectly
understood all the workings of the mind as well as
the consciousness beyond it. I felt an immediate
pull from his picture from my first encounter with
it. Ramana has remained as a kind of spiritual
father and as the ultimate model for
enlightenment. I also corresponded with his
ashram in India and studied their magazine, the
Mountain Path, which I would later write articles
for.
Self-knowledge is the essence of all spiritual paths
and the basis of Vedanta, whose main motto is
Know Thyself. Ramana embodied this path of Selfknowledge
completely and lived it fully. With him
Vedanta became a living presence, a radiant flame
that persisted throughout all time and space.
Ramana embodied this path of Self-knowledge
completely and lived it fully. With him Vedanta
became a living presence, a radiant flame that
persisted throughout all time and space. At the
same time Ramana was not trapped in tradition or
ceremony, mere book learning or dry ritual. His
Advaita was simple, direct and modern, as well as
faithful to the highest realization. It was quite
adaptable and open to each individual.
I felt perfectly at home with it. Ramana’s influence
combined with that of the Ramakrishna order, the
Upanishads and Shankaracharya became the basis
of my Vedantic path. I also studied other important
Advaitic texts and tried to develop an informed
view of the tradition. In terms of my practices I
switched to Jnana Yoga, the Yoga of knowledge or
Self-inquiry approach, such as taught by Ramana,
with some influence of J. Krishnamurti.
-----------------------------------
Dr Frawley's experiences on visiting Tituvannamalai is quite interesting.
Namaskar.
Great conversations with Sri Nome lately. True jnani, no doubt. Blows my mind everytime contact with him. I wanted to recount anecdotes for Ravi, since Ravi expressed liking. The problem is, I feel very unqualified to for instance quote Nome. When he's speaking to me, it's Self to itself. When my ego tries to recall what was spoken on a mental level, it is filtered through the ignorance of my ego. Though I think anything Nome has spoken to me, is very, very lasting. One interesting instance though, and take with a grain of salt any attempt at quoting him, I make. I rang on the temple doorbell. I believe Sasvati answered the door, and led me up the stairs with the orange and red Om banner, and then the framed picture of Maharshi, before entering the office with big desks on either side. Nome in the left desk, Sasvati sits in the right desk. Two jnanis, me all alone with them. Very humbling. Behind Nome is a picture of some Hindu God, could be Siva? could be Ram? I'm not sure. Behind Sasavati I think is a picture of Sri Bhagavan. I sit in the chair near Nome's desk. He was sitting translating verses of Yoga Vasista for the Temple newsletter Reflections. I don't feel comfortable quoting him further about this, because I don't feel qualified to quote a jnani. I have visions when he is talking to me, he seems to glow with a white radiant light. I feel too humbled to attempt to quote him, unless it was a word for word transcript of a recording. Everything he says, and does is instruction to me, in his presence. The problem with quoting him, is that those words did not come from a mind. And when I write down my memory of it, it is the memory in a mind. Nonetheless, it's a beautiful thing. The reason I know this, is because my mind is not present in his presence, like it normally is "out here". So the one who remembers, didn't hear it, if that makes sense. I assume the same was true of interactions with Maharshi, or other jnanis. This place reminds me of the stories of Ramanasramam in the Power of the Presence, maybe in the 30s or something. Before Bhagavan was super-famous. No doubt, it's the real deal.
Here is a full satsang with Nome in parts at SAT Temple Satsang hall. There are also on Vimeo a couple "SAT happiness" and "Sat Peace"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLP0uF09bx8
David, in one your blogs you talked of God having Maya upadhi and man avidya upadhi.You said the maya upadhi of God is very complex and so might entail a seperate article. Could you please post a new article on this at your convenience.Thanks.
Scott,
Yogavasishta is a wonderful book.Good to know that you are enjoying the satsangh in Master Nome's company.Please do post on the daily life out there-What is the daily routine,what sort of food,etc.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from Dr Frawley's autobiography:
"I came to the Ramanashram to contact Ramana and
his path of Self-inquiry, which is a method to
experience the non-dual state of pure awareness.
What I actually discovered was the God Skanda,
the child of fire, who demanded purification, death
and spiritual rebirth. I encountered one of the
Gods, not as a devotional or cultural image but as a
primordial and awesome power. Ramana came to
me through Lord Skanda, the son of Shiva, with
whom Ganapati Muni identified him. I came to
understand Ramana as Lord Skanda, the
embodiment of the flame of knowledge.
Coming into Tiruvannamalai I felt the presence of
a tremendous spiritual fire, which also had, in its
more benefic moments, the face of a young boy.
The image of a small boy carrying a spear, rising
out of a fire, kept arising in my mind. This brought
about an intense practice of Self-inquiry that was
literally like death, though it was the ego’s death,
not that of the body.
Going through that fire was perhaps the most
intense spiritual experience of my life, to the pointthat I had at time to pray that it would not become
too strong! Yet afterwards I felt refreshed and
cleansed, with a purity of perception that was
extraordinary.
Up to that point I had a limited understanding of
the role of deities in spiritual practice. I had almost
no knowledge of Lord Skanda, though he is a
popular deity in South India and one sees his
picture everywhere. I had not yet grasped the
depth of his connection with Ramana. So I was
shocked to come into a direct contact with such an
entity, not as a mere fantasy but as a concrete and
vivid inner experience penetrating to the core of
my being. That the process of Self-inquiry, which
starts out as a philosophical practice, could be
aligned to a deity in which my personality was
swallowed up, was not something that I had noted
in any teachings.
In time I learned much about both Skanda and
Ramana. Skanda is the incarnation of the power of
direct insight. He is the Self that is born of Selfinquiry
which is like a fire, the inner child born of
the death of the ego on the cremation pyre of
meditation. This child represents the innocent
mind, free of ulterior motives, which alone can
How I Became a Hindu – David Frawley
102
destroy all the demons, our negative conditionings,
with his spear of discrimination beyond the
fluctuations of the mind. Coming to
Tiruvannamalai was an experience of that inner
fire (tejas) which is Skanda and Ramana.
I felt Lord Skanda most keenly at the great temple
of Arunachaleshwara in the nearby town. Initially
the experience of the temple was more important
for me than the experience of the ashram.
Arunachaleshwara temple still holds the vibration
of Ramana, who was its child, where he stayed and
practiced tapas when young and unknown. The
temple has its own Divine presence that has
nourished many great sages and yogis."
Namaskar.
on the 6th Sept,
"Is this meant to be taken literally? I mean repeating "I" as a mantra?"
RM: If you find the vichara marga [the path of self-enquiry] too hard, you can go on repeating 'I', 'I', and that will lead you to same goal. There is no harm in using 'I' as a mantra. It is the first name of God.
Losing M. Mind,
Well!!.....IF you are now associating with '2' self-realised persons then what great fortune for you.
Do you live under the same roof as them?
At Ravi, I will. At anonymous, I'll just be quite honest, speaking from my own experiences, since I don't know what Self-Realization is, experientially, fully, permanently, or maybe at all, it would be hard for me to tell who is Self-Realized. I have to say, the experience around Nome, and Sasvati though is very, very intense, and very reminscent of the experiences that I've read in David Godman books. Nome has been the primary Guru I've dialogued with. Yesterday, and for the reasons mentioned earlier, I won't go into too much detail. But I wrote him a letter with some of my madness, and how he responded got so deep into me, and was so masterful, that I've been deeply and I think permanently changed by it. So yes, I assume the term jnani applies to them. But what that is, is so beyond my ability to understand or label, that I feel very uncomfortable labeling it. I don't know what Nome is, all I know is that it is really, really powerful, and omnipotent, and beyond description, and even my memories, can't grasp it. I would guess, that what is happening is extremely beneficial for me. All I know is that Nome, the jnani, is a force to be reckoned with, who humbled very greatly corrupt, egotistical, craving me, with his kindness and purity, but direct and powerful probing questions, making me yearn for salvation (and right conduct) all the more. One more thing, in my memory, it was like a tidal wave that recedes and then demolishes me. Or a great sagely martial arts master like Musashi but on a psychological level. He would ask questions, and then pause, and theyw were the questions I most feared, and were afraid to look into those places in my consciousness, but he would pause, and that kind gaze, and that incredibly washing over me grace. He would let me get defensive, and then show me, he wasn't attacking me. That's my best description. And afterward, I saw that he was giving me an experiential glimpse of what the 'I' is, my own selfish, fearful ego and it's assumptions that is normally invisible, taken for granted. So that I could truly get a glimpse beyond it. He's terrifying to my ego, but benevolent to my Self. And I assume, that one would have to be in Ramana's state to show that kind of mastery.
At Ravi, I will. At anonymous, I'll just be quite honest, speaking from my own experiences, since I don't know what Self-Realization is, experientially, fully, permanently, or maybe at all, it would be hard for me to tell who is Self-Realized. I have to say, the experience around Nome, and Sasvati though is very, very intense, and very reminscent of the experiences that I've read in David Godman books. Nome has been the primary Guru I've dialogued with. Yesterday, and for the reasons mentioned earlier, I won't go into too much detail. But I wrote him a letter with some of my madness, and how he responded got so deep into me, and was so masterful, that I've been deeply and I think permanently changed by it. So yes, I assume the term jnani applies to them. But what that is, is so beyond my ability to understand or label, that I feel very uncomfortable labeling it. I don't know what Nome is, all I know is that it is really, really powerful, and omnipotent, and beyond description, and even my memories, can't grasp it. I would guess, that what is happening is extremely beneficial for me. All I know is that Nome, the jnani, is a force to be reckoned with, who humbled very greatly corrupt, egotistical, craving me, with his kindness and purity, but direct and powerful probing questions, making me yearn for salvation (and right conduct) all the more. One more thing, in my memory, it was like a tidal wave that recedes and then demolishes me. Or a great sagely martial arts master like Musashi but on a psychological level. He would ask questions, and then pause, and theyw were the questions I most feared, and were afraid to look into those places in my consciousness, but he would pause, and that kind gaze, and that incredibly washing over me grace. He would let me get defensive, and then show me, he wasn't attacking me. That's my best description. And afterward, I saw that he was giving me an experiential glimpse of what the 'I' is, my own selfish, fearful ego and it's assumptions that is normally invisible, taken for granted. So that I could truly get a glimpse beyond it. He's terrifying to my ego, but benevolent to my Self. And I assume, that one would have to be in Ramana's state to show that kind of mastery.
The royal court was assembled awaiting the arrival
of the king , when a raggedly dressed Sufi fakir strolled in
and sat in the seat reserved for the king. The chief minister
was aghast . He said , "Who do you think you are ,
coming in here like this ? Do you imagine yourself a minister?"
"A minister ?" asked the Sufi. "No , I am more than that."
"Well you can't be the Chief Minister . I am the the Chief minister.
Are you the King?"
"Not the King." said the Sufi. "I am more than that."
"Are you the Emperor?"
"No , I am more than that."
"The Prophet?"
"No, I am more than that."
"Do you think you are God?"
"No , I am not God , I am more than that."
"But more than God there's nothing!"
" Yes , that is correct,"said the Sufi.
"I am that nothing."
Those who are over awed with themselves... with their moment of satori...samadhi,
whatever, will sometimes trap themselves by the remembrance of that event and instead
of accepting that moment as an attaboy will instead presume to be a spokes person for
the non dual. Like I got IT! And let me now explain it to you...of course what is
explained is explained through that laminate of conditioning that is self importance...and
self importance in this psychological sense demands self promoting, and self promoting
always jars my ears.
Q
Who do you refer to Q?
Dear anonymous, Referring to all those guru 'upstarts' who are busily and shamelessly promoting themselves.
"Dear anonymous, Referring to all those guru 'upstarts' who are busily and shamelessly promoting themselves."
yes, i understand, it grinds
i try to remember that we are all "pretending", often unbeknownst to even ourself, to be this or that........it sometimes helps
Friends,
An Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"One night a fisherman went into a garden and cast his net into the lake in order
to steal some fish. The owner heard him and surrounded him with his servants. They
brought lighted torches and began to search for him. In the mean time the
fisherman smeared his body with ashes and sat under a tree, pretending to be a
holy man. The owner and his men searched a great deal but could not find the thief.
All they saw was a holy man covered with ashes, meditating under a tree. The next
day the news spread in the neighbourhood that a great sage was staying in the
garden. People gathered there and saluted him with offerings of fruit, flowers, and
sweets. Many also offered silver and copper coins. 'How strange!' thought the
fisherman. 'I am not a genuine holy man, and still people show such devotion to me. I
shall certainly realize God if I become a true sadhu. There is no doubt about it.'
"If a mere pretence of religious life can bring such spiritual awakening, you can
imagine the effect of real sadhana. In that state you will surely realize what is real
and what is unreal. God alone is real, and the world is illusory."
The world is a dream
One of the devotees said to himself: "Is the world unreal, then? The fisherman,
to be sure, renounced worldly life. What, then, will happen to those who live in the
world? Must they too renounce it?" Sri Ramakrishna, who could see into a man's
innermost thought, said very tenderly: "Suppose an office clerk has been sent to
jail. He undoubtedly leads a prisoner's life there. But when he is released from jail,
does he cut capers in the street? Not at all. He gets a job as a clerk again and goes
on working as before. Even after attaining Knowledge through the guru's grace, one
can very well live in the world as a Jivanmukta."
Namaskar.
I came across this story perusing a spiritual forum. You can see how innocently it starts with wanting to meditate to suddenly elevating oneself to facilitator and then guru. "My story is I am a 25 year veteran T.M mantra
meditator.When I began meditation I did it in the spirit of
the relaxation response and thought I wanted to become
enlightened..Now I just want to be able to bear the big void
and perhaps meet some friends once a week or bi weekly for
group meditation in the upper room of a Coffee lounge.
..This would be a totally open forum but each
week I would bring up a topic of discussion and even teach a
number of meditation practices as taught and practiced by me
from various teachers and groups such as T.M,Centering
prayer,Shambhala Shamatha,Zen zazen-shikantaza,Gurdjieff body
sensation meditation etc."
Don't you just love it!
...Let all the would-be enlightened
ones step forth! I, for one, am too shy.
It doesn't seem that confusing to me. If I meditate, or do spiritual practice because I want to be free of ego, and suffering, why would I need to ever elevate myself to the status of teacher? And is the desire to be a teacher, to help others do the same, or for one's own self-aggrandizement? I mean, if I ever got to the place where I was free, and I could help others spiritually, I wouuld. I'm not and I can't. I also recognize that I couldn't unless I really had realized the Self, was free of the ego. And from what I've seen, the Enlightened don't step forward, people come to them, recognizing what they are, and seek help. And to get Enlightened per se, one has to develop humility first, and humility wouldn't be seeking to advance oneself.. That has been what alot of my conversations with Nome have been about. He's been pushing me that it is better to give than to receive. I couldn't imagine innocently wanting to meditate, to advancing myself to 'teacher'. then the question would be, what were my motivations in meditating in the first place?
Lulu books of Clemens Vargas Ramos
Hopefully soon we will find here Venkatesanandas Yoga Vasistha!
David,
New post please!
Losing M Mind
how is it going living with Nome?
what are your experiences?
Emptiness here, Emptiness there, but the infinite universe
stands always before your eyes.
"Infinitely large and infinitely small: no difference,
for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen."
from Third Zen Patriarch "Faith Mind"
"One consciousness, equally distributed everywhere, because of irgorance we give it unequal distribution. No distribution, no everywhere."
Ramana Maharshi
Years ago I was given a video of Purandara dasa and his younger fellow devotee/singer Kanaka Dasa.
The unfolding of the story is both naieve and hypnotic. Meeting with the guru Vayasatirtha and the medicant life they led singing devotional songs as they criss- crossed the country side does not date, the songs being timeless.
hj
Yes, new post please!
Anonymous, things are going great with being here with Nome. I don't technically live with him. But I live at the temple he gives Satsang at. Nonetheless, I see him frequently, and he's always available. I would say, personally, spiritually, I can feel the benefit, in terms of grace. However, the hard part, is that grace causes a pressure so to speak, to change, so that my lifestyle, habits are in touch with that grace. So the hard part, is the problems that I had before coming here, the pressure to change how I deal with things is difficult. I for over a week, had daily satsang with Nome. i.e. I visited him in his office. His answers were continually masterful, and the grace extremely intense. He would send me to meditate in the temple. Also his answers were alot more personal. I can almost see that his answers are crafted to all the people, minds around him. So one-on-one his verbal answers were for me alone. I stopped going to his office, for a bit, because he really gave such good answers, blew my mind so much, but also the pressure to be at a higher level was great (and extremely humbling), that i felt i needed to process and think on what already had been said. It's got an element of being like exercise. It's really good for me, but it also is strenuous. And I think the having to practice intensely, and raise myself to a higher level is strenuous. But the atmosphere of grace, is always present. I can't get away with my bad mind habits here. I'll share a dialogue that i had with nome in the official Satsang that I transcribed.
I ask: One thing that I thought about relating, is that, I was talking about desire and craving, and you had asked if I would really want to give that up. And as you were sitting there, it occured to me, that that fit into the teaching, in that desire is not given up, it is turned within. I felt like I kind of got the joke, to that question, where it didn't make sense, earlier.
Nome replies: In all your desires, you desire actually one thing. It's not a thing, it's actually the happiness that you wish. The desires can take ever so many forms. But the feeling at which you are aiming, is one, the same in all of them. If you find that having that one motivation, split up among so many desires, for things and circumstances, is a cause of suffering. Then you will find it intolerable. And then you most certainly will not want to, remain with desire and craving. What else is desire but confusion regarding the real source of happiness?
LMM:That makes sense, definitely. Because right now I have a much more solid experience of that. I brought it up, because it was that realization that caused it all to break open, and me to feel at peace, realizing what you are saying right now.
Nome: Can the temporary fulfillment of any desire, give you the same peace?
On a logical level I can say no. But on an experiential level, I obviously retain some
idea that it does.
Nome: How did your reason, and your experience become split?
LMM: How did my?
Nome: You said on a logical level and an experiential level. How did reasoning and experience become split?
LMM:I don't know, I don't think. Obviously they have.
Nome: What is your actual experience?
LMM:Right now, very at peace. A very deep sense of peace, and somewhat a dissolution or suspension of egoity, and being more expansive, but still retaining a feeling of individuality.
Nome: To that degree the peace can be disturbed. To the degree the ego dissolves, to that degree the innate peace, shines. What is the nature of peace, is simultaneously, happiness. What is the source?
LMM: (laughing, getting it now) All that was within me, so I obviously extended further than... (laughing)
Nome: The present waking state is very similar.
LMM:It seems a little more difficult to experience that same kind of waking up, in the waking state.
Nome: What makes the difficulty?
LMM: The sense of reality attributed to the waking state. Like not being woken up, and really taking the dream seriously.
Nome: So if we attribute reality to the unreal, the unreal seems like an obstacle, a difficulty to get over. If we cease to misidentify, if we cease to attribute the reality to the unreal. What then? is it difficult?
LMM: It's very peaceful, and considerably easier.
Nome: Is it difficult to be detached from the things of last night's dream, now?
LMM: No. (laughing)
Nome: Is it difficult to be beyond the desire for dream stuff?
LMM: No, except that the stuff desired in dream and waking is similar.
Nome: That just shows ignorance is repetative.
LMM: (laughing) Makes sense.
Nome: It is the characteristic of ignorance to take the real to be unreal, and the unreal to be real. To regard the Self, when one comes to know about it, as something objective, a goal removed from oneself, and to regard that which is not the Self, as oneself. Such ignorance alone is the cause of feeling bound, limited in any manner. And such bondage alone constitutes suffering. To do away with suffering, put an end to the imagined bondage. To put an end to the bondage, to find out how it is only imaginary, relinquish misidentification. That is, destroy the ignorance.
LMM: This seems like a good place to do that. Because I have much more of an experience of that, That. So I can eliminate it right now, from that standpoint
http://vimeo.com/channels/cathyginter
The upper left selection on this site, is Nome discussing Sri Bhagavan's Realization. I was listening to it, with Mozart's Requiem playing from another window of Youtube. It is so good.
Losing M. Mind
well it sounds like you have found something that is working for you
i hope it continues and you find what you are looking for
best wishes and regards
Ishvara: "Praying is rattling God's cage and waking God up and setting God free and giving this
famished God water and this starving God food and cutting the ropes off God's hands
and the manacles off God's feet and washing the caked sweat from God's eyes and then
watching God swell with life and vitality and energy and following God wherever God
goes."
Walter
Walter,
Who is Ishvara?His description of Prayer seems to me pretty utilitarian and cold.His 'God' seems to be one caught up in slumber,chains,shackles waiting to be set free.
Prayer is like the music of the self that is heard when the cacophony of the senses is Stilled.It is like a perfume that wafts when the Heart Blossoms.It is like a remembrance of something dear to oneself , long forgotten and hidden in one's depths.
As Kabir says-'yAd abh Hogaye Bahuth purAni'-I remember(recall)now what is ancient'
Prayer has no 'purpose'.This is why Sri Ramana Maharshi never even attempted any explanation on his Magnum Opus Akshara MaNa MAlai-The Marital Garland of Letters'.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Ravi, As we are shackled because of limitations perhaps we put limits around a personal god as well. Meaning ensues from meaningful activity, often called religion. Romantic love is full of mystery but crumbles upon inspection. Spiritual love is full of mystery and does not always crumble upon close inspection.
Isolation refers to the unbridgable gap between self and others and of course a personal god.
As I see it you have a dualistic relationship with Ishvara. In the temples they worship, wash and dress the deity as if they were divine individuals.
I don't know exactly what Walter meant but you can be 'wish blocked' without opinions, without impulses like a great yogi. We as individuals are full of impulses asking, no begging a personal god for help.
hj
hj,
"As I see it you have a dualistic relationship with Ishvara. In the temples they worship, wash and dress the deity as if they were divine individuals."
Yes,this is quite understandable,as this is one way of establishing a relationship with God-yet,not for one moment any devotee would think that he is serving a 'famished' and 'fettered' God.
As Lord Sri Krishna says in the Gita:
patraḿ puṣpaḿ phalaḿ toyaḿ
yo me bhaktyā prayacchati
tad ahaḿ bhakty-upahṛtam
aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ
patram — a leaf; puṣpam — a flower; phalam — a fruit; toyam — water; yaḥ — whoever; me — unto Me; bhaktyā — with devotion; prayacchati — offers; tat — that; aham — I; bhakti-upahṛtam — offered in devotion; aśnāmi — accept; prayata-ātmanaḥ — from one in pure consciousness.
TRANSLATION
If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.
-----------------------------------
I did a google search and found that 'Ishvara' possibly refers to an American Teacher.The link to his site is:
http://www.alayanet.org/Pages/spiritualteachings.html
Ishvara seems to have his own terminology and way of explaining things.
Namaskar.
David,
Are you in touch with some of the devotees of Papaji featured in Nothing ever happened?
Do any of Papaji's devotees teach today in India? Sharad was very eloquent in 'Nothing Ever Happened' part 3, but he said he didn't talk about the Self because nobody in his town was interested in it (many of the readers here would definitely be interested). I'm just curious what he and other devotees are upto.
Ravi, Thanks for your reply. May I remind you we were discussing and trying to understand Walter's comments.
On the spiritual path we aim to lose ego boundaries. Of course we want the bliss of selfless merger.
hj
hj,
All aims and purposes are utilitarian only.They are left behind.As T K Sundaresa Iyer(TKS)said when asked what he gained by living with Bhagavan:'One day I wondered why I was visiting him at all. What was the use? There seemed to be no inner advancement. Going up the hill was meaningless toil. I decided to end my visits on the hill. For one hundred days exactly I did not see Bhagavan. On the hundred and first day I could suffer no longer and I ran to Skandasramam, above Virupaksha Cave. Bhagavan saw me climbing, got up and came forward to meet me. When I fell at his feet, I could not restrain myself and burst into tears. I clung to them and would not get up. Bhagavan pulled me up and asked: "It is over three months since I saw you. Where were you?'' I told him how I thought that seeing him was of no use. "All right,'' he said, "maybe it is of no use, so what? You felt the loss, did you not?'' Then I understood that we did not go to him for profit, but because away from him there was no life for us. "
Dualism,Nondualism,etc and the preferences one may have-all these fall away.
Indeed all limitations are due to 'Dehatma' Buddhi-identification with the Body Consciousness.With increased pressure of Sadhana,this tends to fall away.
More on this later.
Namaskar.
Friends,
One of the Frequent discussions that I come across is the personal vs impersonal God;dualistic worship vs Nondualistic approach.
In chapter XII,Sri Arjuna directly asks Sri Krishna(God Manifest,as Arjuna witnessed in Chapter XI)exactly this very same question!
Arjuna Uvaacha:
Evam satatayuktaa ye bhaktaastwaam paryupaasate;
Ye chaapyaksharamavyaktam teshaam ke yogavittamaah.
Arjuna said:
1. Those devotees who, ever steadfast, thus worship Thee and those also who worship the Imperishable and the Unmanifested—which of them are better versed in Yoga?
SWAMI SIVANANDA'S COMMENTARY: The twelfth discourse indicates that Bhakti Yoga is much easier than Jnana Yoga or the Yoga of knowledge.
Sri Bhagavaan Uvaacha:
Mayyaaveshya mano ye maam nityayuktaa upaasate;
Shraddhayaa parayopetaaste me yuktatamaa mataah.
The Blessed Lord said:
2. Those who, fixing their minds on Me, worship Me, ever steadfast and endowed with supreme faith, these are the best in Yoga in My opinion.
This is the essence.The rest of the verses in this chapter expand on this central theme.
In verse 5,Sri Krishna clearly brings out the difficulty of those who profess the way of the impersonal:
Klesho’dhikatarasteshaam avyaktaasaktachetasaam;
Avyaktaa hi gatirduhkham dehavadbhiravaapyate.
5. Greater is their trouble whose minds are set on the Unmanifested; for the goal—the Unmanifested—is very difficult for the embodied to reach.
-----------------------------------
Sri Ramakrishna says Exactly what Sri Krishna has said:
Why so much controversy about God?
BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, why are there so many different opinions about the nature
of God? Some say that God has form, while others say that He is formless. Again,
those who speak of God with form tell us about His different forms. Why all this
controversy?"
MASTER: "A devotee thinks of God as he sees Him. In reality there is no confusion
about God. God explains all this to the devotee if the devotee only realizes Him
somehow. You haven't set your foot in that direction. How can you expect to know
all about God?
Parable of the chameleon
"Listen to a story. Once a man entered a wood and saw a small animal on a tree.
He came back and told another man that he had seen a creature of a beautiful red
colour on a certain tree. The second man replied: 'When I went into the wood, I also
saw that animal. But why do you call it red? It is green.' Another man who was
present contradicted them both and insisted that it was yellow. Presently others
arrived and contended that it was grey, violet, blue, and so forth and so on. At last
they started quarrelling among themselves. To settle the dispute they all went to
the tree. They saw a man sitting under it. On being asked, he replied: 'Yes, I live
under this tree and I know the animal very well. All your descriptions are true.
Sometimes it appears red, sometimes yellow, and at other times blue, violet, grey,
and so forth. It is a chameleon. And sometimes it has no colour at all. Now it has a
colour, and now it has none.'
"In like manner, one who constantly thinks of God can know His real
nature; he alone knows that God reveals Himself to seekers in various forms and
aspects. God has attributes; then again He has none. Only the man who lives under
the tree knows that the chameleon can appear in various colours, and he knows,
further, that the animal at times has no colour at all. It is the others who suffer
from the agony of futile argument.
-----------------------------------
I tend to favour devotion to 'personal' God as the most potent Sadhana-As we go deeper into this,exactly as Sri Krishna or Sri Ramakrishna has said,it will lead to all the rest.
Namaskar.
hi Ravi
myself, overall, would say I lean towards the "impersonal". And I gather self-enquiry would fall into this category.
But at times I enjoy the "personal".
And I suspect many adherents to Ramana Maharishi's teachings would, even though they consider themself practitioners of self-enquiry, also pray to Maharishi, or perhaps repeat his name japa style.
regards
From 'At the Feet of Bhagavan' by T.K.Sundaresa Iyer
***********************************
9. THE TEACHING IN SILENCE
IT was a Sivaratri Day. The evening worships at the
Mother’s shrine were over. The devotees had their dinner
with Sri Bhagavan, who was now on His seat, the devotees
at His feet sitting around Him.
At 8 p.m. one of the Sadhus stood up, did pranam
(offered obeisance), and with folded hands prayed: “Today
is the Sivaratri Day; we should be highly blessed by Sri
Bhagavan expounding to us the meaning of the Hymn to
Dakshinamurti (stotra).” Says Bhagavan: “Yes, sit down.”
The Sadhu sat, and all eagerly looked at Sri Bhagavan
and Sri Bhagavan looked at them. Sri Bhagavan sat and
sat in His usual pose, no, poise. No words, no movement,
and all was stillness! He sat still, and all sat still, waiting.
The clock went on striking, nine, ten, eleven, twelve,
one, two and three. Sri Bhagavan sat and they sat. Stillness,
calmness, motionlessness — not conscious of the body,
of space or time.
Thus eight hours were passed in Peace, in Silence, in
Being, as It is. Thus was the Divine Reality taught through
the speech of Silence by Bhagavan Sri Ramana
Dakshinamurthy.
At the stroke of 4 a.m. Sri Bhagavan quietly said:
“And now have you known the essence of the
Dakshinamurti Hymn”? All the devotees stood and made
pranam to the holy Form of the Guru in the ecstasy of
their Being.
Extract from 'A Sadhu's Reminiscences' by A.Chadwick: on vasanaas/tendencies/attachments
**********************************
I had always wondered how it was that St. Paul, who was a most orthodox Jew, hated Christ and persecuted the Christians, interpreted his great experience on the Damascus road in terms of Christ and afterwards became an ardent Christian himself. So one day I asked Bhagavan. He said that St. Paul was always thinking about Christ and the Christians, they were never out of his mind, so when he returned to self-consciousness after his experience he identified his realization with this predominant thought.
And he referred to Ravana as an example. Ravana hated
Rama, never ceased to think of him and, dying, Rama
was the uppermost thought in his mind and so he realized
God. It is not a question of love or hate, it is just the
question of what is in the mind at the time. People judge
the deeds of others as good or bad, but it is the doing itselfthat matters and not the complexion of the deed. The
whole secret lies in whether we are attached to our actions or not. A person who spends his time in good deeds can be much more attached to them than the so-called bad man is to his. And it is the one who drops off all attachments first who will be Self-realized soonest. Good and bad are found eventually to be only relative terms. Self-enquiry is found to be no more than the discarding of Vasanas. So long as one single Vasana remains, good or bad, so long must we remain unrealized. This reminds me of an incident that happened at the time of the celebration of the fiftieth anniversary of Bhagavan’s arrival in Tiruvannamalai, when Bhagavan pointed out that it was a good thing to let the Vasanas to come out. It is useless to bottle them up and let them go on gathering strength inside. The consequence of doing which would prove fatal in the end.
One of the old disciples had been causing a lot of trouble and annoyance to people by constantly pushing himself forward as of more importance than the rest. Eventually the manager went to talk to Bhagavan privately and ask him what he should do about it. Bhagavan listened without a word and then when he had finished remarked, “Yes, it’s his Vasanas, it’s a good thing to let them come out.” And that was all. Excellent philosophy no doubt but not much consolation for the manager.
…….page 71
As regards Satsanga, since we obviously take on the colour of the company we keep, the ideal is to live with a Realized Sage; but if that is not possible, then we should choose our company in the best way we can, avoiding undesirable company. He never taught morals, and had no special abhorrence of sex. He once said in answer to a troubled disciple in my hearing, “It is better to do it than to be always thinking about it.” This reminds one of the Gita, “Thoughts are acts in fancy.” Always thinking of it is repeatedly doing it. He naturally expected Sadhus to lead a decent life and set an example to others. In any case we should practise moderation in all things, even in those that we consider good, and, strange though it may seem, a moderation in our Sadhana also is recommended. Overdoing of austerities and prolonged and unnaturally forced meditation may eventually lead to madness, unless we do such under proper guidance.
Anonymous,
"myself, overall, would say I lean towards the "impersonal". And I gather self-enquiry would fall into this category.
But at times I enjoy the "personal".
Yes,there is no contradiction in this.What you say is true not just of devotees of Sri Bhagavan but also Sri Bhagavan himself-how he adored Arunachala.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
The evening worship in the temples was over. Sri Ramakrishna was again seated in
his room with M.
M. had been visiting the Master for the past two years and, had received his
grace and blessings. He had been told that God was both with form and without
form, that He assumed forms for the sake of His devotees. To the worshipper of
the formless God, the Master said: "Hold to your conviction,
but remember that all is possible with God. He has form, and again, He is formless.
He can be many things more."
MASTER (to M.): "You have accepted an ideal, that of God without form—isn't that
so?"
M: "Yes, sir. But I also believe what you say—that all is possible with God. It is
quite possible for God to have forms." .
MASTER: "Good. Remember further that, as Consciousness, He pervades the entire
universe of the living and non-living."
M: "I think of Him as the consciousness in conscious beings."
MASTER: "Stick to that ideal now. There is no need of tearing down and changing
one's attitude. You will gradually come to realize that the consciousness in conscious
beings is the Consciousness of God. He alone is Consciousness.
Namaskar.
"St Paul who was an orthodox jew and hated christ and christians"
Perhaps we can look at it from different perspective. Paul was an orthodox jew and hated Jesus who was also a jew. The whole Jesus myth and story has been hijacked by the then Roman emperor
and consequently by the Roman Catholic church.
Anonymous,
" A person who spends his time in good deeds can be much more attached to them than the so-called bad man is to his."
On Ravana,etc-Chadwick's thoughts expressed here are at best a mixed bag.
The key thing is that in the heart of the wildest Brute is the Divine Spark,that can manifest given the 'moment'.It is Ravana's hatred of RAMA-it is RAMA that matters!Ravana's hatred of X,Y and Z or his attachment or detachment would not have mattered!
This is what Sri Krishna has said in the Gita-"He who fixes his mind on Me,attains Me".Rama was the paragon of all virtues and divine qualities and much as Ravana hated him,these qualities do rub on one and bring about the transformation.
Ditto for Saint Paul and Lord Jesus,The Christ.Saul might have hated and slaughtered many others ,but that did not change saul.It is only thinking about Christ that changed him to Paul.
The psychological Truth is that one becomes what one constantly and intensely thinks about.If passions are diverted towards God,one becomes God( discovers God).
It is said that the axe that fells the sandalwood tree is anointed with its fragrance.Axing any other tree will not produce the same result.
-----------------------------------
coming to vasanas,it is not the quantity(tending to ZERO)that matters but the quality.The more Satvic the vasana ,the more one is closer to the source.
The other key thing is that detachment is not indifference.One can be totally involved and yet be detached.
Namaskar.
I agree that on the topic of attachments and liberation from whatever information is availableI speculate Chadwick is a bit confused here.There could be Good people who are more attached to their good actions for eg:expecting a return/punya or a feel good factor and then there could be a bad guy who may not hold grudges for long.Chadwick is throwing a point here as to who is closer to the goal of Realization and concludes Mr.Baddie.This is only a hypothetical and unrealistic example.Mr.Baddie may temporarily appear nearer to God but in the long term he is definetely farther than Mr.Goddie because Mr.Baddie WILL be thrown into a spiral of bad deeds which will naturally increase his attachment vasana.He will eventually come to pass the state of Mr.Goddie.
So I feel this example has not been thought thoroughly and hence wrong but serves to highlight on the danger of attachments arising out of even Good deeds.
For eg:I could have the attachment to read or write Religious books or an attachment to 'feel good factor' by helping others; which at *a certain stage* might actually become obstacles.
For eg: There could have been a speculative stage in story of Thyagaraja where composing more and more srutis for Lord Rama was actually hindering him from union with the Lord.Similarily our David can tell us if writing more and more is hindering his progress to Self-Reliazaion albeit a Noble and very helpful(to others) task.
Anonymous,
"For eg: There could have been a speculative stage in story of Thyagaraja where composing more and more srutis for Lord Rama was actually hindering him from union with the Lord"
Someone asked Sri Bhagavan whether Saint Thaygayya(I like to call him this way)attained God through his devotional compositions.Sri Bhagavan said-The compositions were a result of the attainment!
What superb compositions-one lifetime is not enough to explore!
What a Great saint,Our Thyagayya !
Friend,I understand how one is weary of being attached to Good!In truth there is truly no need for such apprehension.The current of Life takes care that one does not stay put or be stuck for ever-it is ever pushing one towards the sea of changelessness.
One of the classic examples of what you are referring to is Ishwar Chandra vidyasagar-How Thakur visits him.This visit is chronicled in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,Chapter 3.This is the only time the Pandit got to see the Master.Despite the initiative on the Master's part and several reminders from him,Vidyasagar never got to see Sri Ramakrishna again.Thakur used to say-His(V)inside is all Gold but he his not aware of it.
Yet as Sri Krishna says in the Gita-No effort goes in vain.
Namaskar.
There is the story in the Tevigga Sutta (of the Pali canon http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/dob/dob-13in.htm ) that three brahmin (those of the "priestly caste" of Hinduism) came to Buddha with questions about this same "Brahma" (Brahman) and the way to Him. The gist of Buddha's answer was that no one could say what the way to Brahman was, unless they saw Brahman "face to face", as he did. And it is from this sutta, among others, that the famous "Four Divine Abodes" teaching of Buddha originated. In Pali, these were called "Brahmaviharas." English translation: "Abodes of God". These are: 1) loving-kindness or benevolence, 2) compassion, 3) sympathetic joy, and, 4) equanimity. The Buddhist teachings further suggests that a person doesn't have "enlightenment" (Bodhi) unless he is in full possession of these four "abodes."
hj
Friends,
Here are a couple of beautiful Thyagaraja compositions:
Theliya LEru rAma- in Raga dhEnuka
In this composition Sri ThyAgarAja takes pity on those who go about their daily karma without understanding the true path of devotion.
Teliya lEru rAma bhakti mArgamunu
ilan(a)ntaTa tirugucunu
kaluvariJcEru kAni (Teliya)
vEga lEci nITa munigi bhUti pUsi
vELLan(e)Jci veliki zlAghanIyulai
bAga paikam(A)rjana lOlul(ai)rE
kAni tyAgarAja vinuta (teliya)
Gist
O Sri RAma! O Lord praised by this tyAgarAja!
People are not aware of the path of bhakti.
Roaming all over the Earth, they babble as if in a dream; but, they are not aware of the path of bhakti.
Getting up at dawn, taking bath in water, smearing sacred ash on the body, (performing japa by) counting the fingers, and ostensibly being praise-worthy, they became very dedicated to acquiring money, but they are not aware of the path of bhakti.
-----------------------------------
one of my favourite compositions of Thyagayya-RAma Bhakti sAmarajyam...
In the kRti ‘rAma bhakti sAmrAjyaM’ – rAga Suddha bangALa – SrI tyAgarAja describes the ecstasy he experiences. This song is addressed to his mind.
rAma bhakti sAmrAjyam(E)
mAnavulak(a)bbEnO manasA
A mAnavula sandarSanam-
(a)tyanta 1brahmAnandamE (rAma)
IlAg(a)ni vivarimpa lEnu
cAla sv(A)nubhava vEdyamE
LeelA sRshTa jaga(t)rayam(a)nE
kOlAhala tyAgarAja nutuDagu (rAma)
Gist
O my mind!
By whomsoever was attained the empire of devotion to SrI rAma - praised by this tyAgarAja - who projected sportingly the tumult called the three Worlds!
Even beholding those persons, is an intense Supreme bliss.
I am unable to describe it (the empire of devotion) to be of such and such nature; it is knowable only through self experience.
Word-by-word Meaning
O my mind (manasA)! By whomsoever (E mAnavulaku) was attained (abbEnO) (mAnavulakabbenO) the empire (sAmrAjyamu) (sAmrAjyamE) of devotion (bhakti) to SrI rAma!
Even beholding (sandarSanamu) those (A) persons (mAnavula), is an intense (atyanta) (sandarSanamatyanta) Supreme bliss (brahmAnandamu) (brahmAnandamE);
O my mind! by whomsoever was attained the empire of devotion to SrI rAma!
I am unable to (lEnu) describe (vivarimpa) it (the empire of devotion) to be (ani) of such and such nature (I lAgu) (I lAgani);
it is knowable (vEdyamE) only (cAla) (literally much) through self (sva) experience (anubhava) (svAnubhava);
O my mind! by whomsoever was attained empire of devotion to SrI rAma – Lord praised (nutuDagu) by this tyAgarAja -
who projected (sRshTa) sportingly (leelA) the tumult (kOlAhala) called (anE) the three (trayamu) Worlds (jagat) (jagatrayamanE)!
-----------------------------------
It will be clear from this how Bhakti is not different than Jnana.The expression is where the difference lies-Bhakti uses the language of feeling;the so called dualistic Bhakti on closer examination will be known to be without boundaries-Hence the Empire of Bhakti,as Sri Thyagayya refers to it,and the Bliss of beholding devotees is BrahmAnandam-bliss of Brahmam as he affirms.
-----------------------------------
Those interested in Sri Thyagayya's krithis(compositions)may look up this site:
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.com/2009/03/tyagaraja-kritis-alphabetical-list.html
Namsakar.
The Natural Man. Poems on U.G. by Larry Morris
Review in Mountain Path
On the question of whether good or bad actions lead to enlightenment. Brings to mind for me the question, how many wrong things have I done, without attachment? How many good things have I done without attachment? Good things are done out of a source of love. Bad things are done out of a sense of selfishness, and attachment. I can say, being where I am now. That the enlightened are pure good, pure selfless. And that anyone who thinks one is more likely to get enlightened from bad deeds, or believe that good deeds are not helpful, doesn't understand anything about spirituality. Nome had guided me to see that "it is better to give than to receive". He asked me why it feels good to give? I said, after considering, because in giving the duality of self and other dissolves. He smiled. Giving is rooted in knowing happiness is within, love is unitary being, one Self. Wanting, and what evil actions are not based on desire? (which is dualistic, because it assumes a this seperate from I) If one is "giving", or doing "good deeds" because they will get something in return, are those good deeds? I mean to become selfless, one does have to be selfless.
This is a Satsang, that has me dialoguing with Nome, about 13 minutes in. But I recommend watching the whole thing.
Satsang:
http://vimeo.com/15471686
Blue Danube Waltz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CTYymbbEL4
Ramos,
The poems on UG are quite refreshing and the author has great Love for UG.
Having said that,UG is someone I do not agree with.I do not need him.
UG says in the video-"Buddha is the filthiest bastard that the world has ever seen'!This is UG-the diehards may say so many explanations as to how the 'iconoclaust' is dismantling the mind of the listener!!!
Repeatedly UG shouts-"I AM TELLING YOU.DON'T REPEAT ALL THAT NONSENSE"
This is what Vivekananda says:
"there is a great danger in stumbling upon this state
(Samadhi). In a good many cases there is the danger of the brain being deranged, and, as a rule, you will find that all these men, however great they were, who had stumbled upon this superconscious state without understanding it, groped in the dark"
UG called it a 'Calamity'.He had heard JK in his early days-so we find a little bit of that coupled to his 'calamity'-This he throws out on his audience,the few that went to him.
Ravi, this is just the outside of U. G., not the inside. He is just angry with misunderstandings, with this longing of the people for the unreal. He was a great sage. He was free from all this false holiness and this endless talks of "love", "heart" and "our divine being".
In my eyes this expresses the true experience of reality:
"If you have the courage to touch life for the first time, you will never know what hit you. Everything man has taught, felt, and experienced is gone, and nothing is put in its place. Such a person becomes the living authority by virtue of his freedom from the past, culture, and he will remain so until someone else who has discovered this for himself blasts it. Until you have the courage to blast me, all that I am saying, and all the gurus, you will remain a cultist with photographs, rituals, birthday celebrations, and the like." (U.G., Mind is a myth)
I don't need U.G. either, but isn't what that narrator is describing what in essence a sat-guru is, how a jnani cannot be grasped by the mind? Muruganar said something similar about Ramana, I read it in Power of the Presence Part II. Is he a deranged man, or an enlightened man? From what is described, based on Ramana Maharshi's criteria. Someone you both respect and feel a great peace in their presence. The only thing is, calling the Buddha a filthy bastard, does not sound like wisdom to me. And the Guru, I associate with, speaks pure wisdom. Ramana spoke pure wisdom. Papaji and Lakshmana Swami spoke pure wisdom. So, if U.G. is really Realized, he is a different sort. Why would a jnani, be so irreverent toward his own state? Toward Brahman? Other then if his irreverence is toward people's false conceptions of it? But reverence and bhakti, like Ravi work better for me. But U.G. evidently in experience elicited taht.
U.G's Anger
Cuts
to
the
bone
sears
burns
and cauterizes
our
wounded
ego.
We
would
like
him
to
see
who
we're
not
instead
he
sees
us
dismissing
the false
self
with
a
flick
of
a
glance
only
the
Real
Thing
interests
him.
Too
bad
we're
so
far
away
from
that.
LMM: Beautiful!
Love
With
one
tiny
flicker
of
a
glance
Love
sees
us
completely
knows
us
through
and
through
and
Loves
us
anyway.
LMM: Describes my experience where I'm at too!
Ramos,
"In my eyes this expresses the true experience of reality:
"If you have the courage to touch life for the first time, you will never know what hit you. Everything man has taught, felt, and experienced is gone, and nothing is put in its place. Such a person becomes the living authority by virtue of his freedom from the past, culture, and he will remain so until someone else who has discovered this for himself blasts it. Until you have the courage to blast me, all that I am saying, and all the gurus, you will remain a cultist with photographs, rituals, birthday celebrations, and the like."
Ramos,
"Such a person becomes a living Authority"!!!(How UG keeps shouting-"IAM TELLING YOU')
This is the problem with UG.He thought that he found reality and others are fools celebrating Gurus,Photographs and Birthdays!
The 'outside' is only a reflection of the 'inside'.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Looking at the Brahmo devotees who had just arrived, the Master said: "Mere
pundits, devoid of divine love, talk incoherently. Pundit Samadhyayi once said, in the
course of his sermon: 'God is dry. Make Him sweet by your love and devotion.'
Imagine! To describe Him, as dry, whom the Vedas declare as the Essence of Bliss!
It makes one feel that the pundit didn't know what God really is. That was why his
words were so incoherent.
"A man once said, 'There are many horses in my uncle's cow-shed.' From that one
could know that the man had no horses at all. No one keeps a horse in a cow-shed."
UG's 'Calamity' seems to me as a horse in a cow-shed.UG ,by his own admission did not know what HIT him.This is exactly What Vivekananda has said.
-----------------------------------
It is quite clear to me that UG is off target and wilfully so!He just has this penchant for cheap shock value.This 'Shock' is eagerly gobbled up by his gullible followers as a 'cleansing agent'.In many respects,I would say that he is worse off than a normal man without any conscious spiritual aim.
-----------------------------------
In a lighter vein,I fancy that in his next birth UG will be born as an orthodox Brahmin Priest carrying Kusava Grass and Sacred Thread to the houses of his clients -to carry out the Rituals(that he railed at in this life!).
This may be followed by many more births wherein UG may learn the fundamentals of civil Living
and come to understand the teachings of The Buddha.(In the process,get rid of his vasana of hating Buddha!)
Finally he will understand what DID NOT HIT him-for there was no one to take the hit and nothing that hit.He will then understand that there is no calamity whatsoever!
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
“This question haunted me all my life and suddenly it hit me: There is no self to realize.”
“Self-knowledge or self-realization is to realize for yourself and by yourself that there is no self to realize.”
(UG)
Sounds like the essence of Ramana Maharishi to me.
“Refuse to get involved in insane discussions; they always end up in fights.” 2Timothy 2:23 I love the way Joyce Meyer describes this, “Stay out of conversations were no one knows what they’re talking about, and everybody is arguing over nothing … in many situations nobody really knows what they’re talking about but everybody thinks they do. Pride wants desperately to look intelligent.”Is it really worth always being right? Stop arguing. When you continue to argue, you stop listening and that only feeds the other person’s anger.
If necessary, simply walk away and give up your right to be right.
From Osho: Just the other day I was reading a lecture of U. G. Krishnamurti. He says he went to see Ramana Maharshi. He was not attracted - because he was chopping vegetables.
Yes, Ramana Maharshi was that kind of man, very ordinary. Chopping vegetables! U. G. Krishnamurti must have gone to see somebody extraordinary sitting on a golden throne or something.
"I call it calamity because from the point of view of one who thinks this is something fantastic, blissful and full of beatitude, love, or ecstasy, this is physical torture; this is a calamity from that point of view. Not a calamity to ME but a calamity to THOSE who have an image that something marvelous is going to happen"
It's interesting that UG attempts to depersonalise and distance himself from the experience.
hj
Ravi, he said: "Until you have the courage to blast me, all that I am saying, ..."
Don't let us be governed by emotions.
Reality is more than the honey of sweet and wise words.
To understand for what Ramakrishna stands we need to become Ramakrishna. It is not enough to repeat His or Ramanas words. Even love is no excuse.
Joyce Meyer, who owns several homes and travels in a private jet (currently a Gulfstream IV) has been criticized by some of her peers for living an excessive lifestyle. She claims that she doesn't have to defend her spending habits because "there’s no need for us to apologize for being blessed." Meyer commented, "You can be a businessman here in St. Louis, and people think the more you have, the more wonderful it is...but if you’re a preacher, then all of a sudden it becomes a problem"
Such a different path to Ramana Maharshi. Where is the simplicity of Ramana?
This is just another preacher living an excessive consumer filled life!
"The uselessness of turning to inner or outer sources to help you is something of which I am certain. It is clear to me that to find out for yourself you must be absolutely helpless with nowhere to turn. That is all. Unfortunately, this certainty cannot be transmitted to someone else. The certainty I have is simply that the goal, which you have invented, is responsible for your search. As long as the goal is there, so long will the search for it continue." (U.G., Mind is a myth)
This sounds wise, not chaotic. It reminds me of Katha Upanishad: "I reveal Myself to him whom I choose." This kind of understanding can not be transmitted by gurus, sages and saints.
U. G. simply deconstructs the prisons of mental images, thats all. He is not very kind and sweet in his words and his approach, but that's not the question. He don't insults the sages and saints. He insults the mental images and conditioning people have of them and of reality. He is angry with foolishness and spiritual banality - why not?
Ramos,
There is nothing emotional in my statements.
Letting go of all that we know or believe does not tantamount to Realization.It is quite likely that we may end up as Neanderthal men-a lot closer to the instinctive animal brethren.
Rather than giving up ,we need the courage to go all the way forward-This is the example that a Ramakrishna or a Ramana has set.
The courage that UG talks about is just a half baked brashness-and it does not require any courage to blast what UG says.It just does not stand scrutiny.Does it?
What UG says at best imitates what the Upanishads have said-but without the maturity of the latter.It is further mixed up with a lot of emotional outbursts.It is difficult to sort out what is chaff and what is Grain(if there is any at all).The diehards would like us to believe that the chaff is ours and UG blasts off all the chaff to let us find the grain.
The Truth may be that he is blowing the Grain away along with the chaff.
-----------------------------------
The other cliched thing that comes over and over again is that only a jnani can recognize another jnani.Granted.Now my question is -What does it take to recognize a man?Even animals and birds have the right instinct to recognize this-How Sri Bhagavan was approached by all that crawls,walks or flies.
So,does it take any extraordinary stuff or intelligence to recognize what is Human and what is not?I do not believe that to behave in a bizarre crude way is the way of a jnani.If that be,I do not have any need of such jnanis.A jnani who is not a sane, rational, compassionate Human being is a Freak of nature-and as such there is little that he can teach others.
Having said this,I have all the respect for all those who are on the path and are devoted to any Guru-for as Emerson says in his Essay on Self Reliance-Although foolishly uttered,it can be wisely heard.
The Poems on UG are Truly Refreshing and God Bless the Author through the Guru UG-All is He.
Namaskar.
hj,
" this is physical torture"
This is a Dead give away.This is exactly what vivekananda had warned about and what is known to all Yogis- that a premature and unprepared stumbling into Yogic experiences- is something that can quite unbalance and derange an individual.
This is what UG unfortunately landed into. He never fully understood it.
Now to tell others that this is all there to it!This is misleading.
Does it help to say that it is not a calamity to himself but from the Other's perspective.May be it is the other way round.
To distance himself from it does not help either.
The Fact remains that UG was abusive and this tendency increased with his ageing.He made a virtue of being Dehuman.A Robot would have met that objective more successfully than he did.
Whatever lofty philosophical Truth that he may have gleaned or taught seems to be a product of his thought,borrowed or otherwise-It certainly did not reflect in his Living.
Namaskar.
Ramos,
"To understand for what Ramakrishna stands we need to become Ramakrishna."
Do we have to?If what he says is not universal and does not resonate within oneself-In this case alone what you say is True.However,if that be the case,then it may not be worth it.
So in either case,one need not become a Ramakrishna or a Ramana.
It is enough to dive into oneself to understand what a Ramakrishna or a Ramana is saying.This is all what Sadhana is all about.
It is by this Yardstick alone that it is possible to dismiss all distortions or exaggerations wherever they occur.This does not require any courage as UG calls it but Insight.
Here is a wonderful Excerpt from Ralph Waldo Emerson:
"To believe your own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men, — that is genius. Speak your latent conviction, and it shall be the universal sense; for always the inmost becomes the outmost — and our first thought is rendered back to us by the trumpets of the Last Judgement. Familiar as the voice of the mind is to each, the highest merit we ascribe to Moses, Plato and Milton is that they set at naught books and traditions, and spoke not what men, but what they thought. A man should learn to detect and watch that gleam of light which flashes across his mind from within, more than the luster of the firmament of bards and sages. Yet he dismisses without notice his thought, because it is his. In every work of genius we recognize our own rejected thoughts; they come back to us with a certain alienated majesty. Great works of art have no more affecting lesson for us than this. They teach us to abide by our spontaneous impression with good-humored inflexibility then most when the whole cry of voices is on the other side.
There is a time in every man's education when he arrives at the conviction that envy is ignorance; that imitation is suicide; that he must take himself for better for worse as his portion; that though the wide universe is full of good, no kernel of nourishing corn can come to him but through his toil bestowed on the plot of ground which is given him to till. The power which resides in him is new in nature, and none but he knows what that is which he can do, nor does he know until he has tried. Not for nothing one face, one character, one fact, makes much impression on him, and another none."
Namaskar.
Ravi, you think a sage must always appear to be sane and rational but think of Sheshadri Swami and his encounter with Annamalai Swami.
Sheshadri Swami could be biosterous and unpredictable; he threw stones at Annamalai and they turned into Butterflies. Pure mystery!
hj
Ravi
are you sure you are simply not annoyed that UG prefers to wipe out your "personal" God? The one that is so dear to you!
not a criticism, just curious
for the record, i'm all for the personal God, equally as valid as the impersonal in my view
on another note, it is curious that even the enlightened tend to have preference and even bias for the practice they used pre-realisation, to the point where other equally valid practices are disregarded
finally, i cant help but wonder if UG had more brain-washed himself than realised.......but who am i to review!!
regards
I'm not willing to judge U.G. so quickly. He's not my Guru, and it's none of my business, his spiritual state. and he is the late U.G. rest in peace. Also, I've watched videos of U.G, I don't know what to think. What Ravi says makes sense? But I'm not convinced. I'm absolutely convinced, and have absolute faith in my own Guru, that is what matters. Because of my experiences, I've been humbled in my assessment of others states, much less from quotes, much less from what I've observed of them on Youtube.That poetry about him was profound, the Great Maurice Frydman seemed to see something there. That gives me pause. What I had heard of him, on his own realization. When he called it the cataclysm, he didn't mean that he suffered, from what I gathered. Infact there is an audio clip of him shortly after his 'realization', where he attributed it to the words of J. Krishnamurti. Before he said, he always asked (paraphrasing what I remember) "Why God, have you forsaken me?" Afterward he asked, "Why God, have you blessed me so?" Was U.G. without bhakti? He said on one youtube video, "none of you have the right to harm even a blade of grass, or a mosquito" (ahimsa). So does Vivikenanda's quote apply to him. Maybe, I don't know. I do think there is a possibility Ravi is incorrect.
Re Joyce Meyer
http://graphics.stltoday.com/infographics/joycemeyer/joycemeyer4.html
I suppose this is just an overt example of “me” “me” “me” wanting more more more, ………for myself.
In one sense we are all doing it, “me-ing”, to some degree.
In the highest sense there is no “me-ing” going on at all. Paradoxical!
Nevertheless, there’s work to be done. If this “me” isn’t undermined somehow, suffering isn’t far away.
So eventually, even Joyce, this life or the next, will be forced to do the work that must be done.
Just a few thoughts.
Ramos,
"The certainty I have is simply that the goal, which you have invented, is responsible for your search."
Is this true?Are we searching simply because we invented some goal?
Can we remain snug and contented as we are, if UG or any other tell us that there is no Goal?Just live the life of 50,60 or 70 years like animals do?
What differentiates us from Animals?It is simply the Fact that a Human being is not contented with Status Quo.This Lack of contentment is the starting point of any meaningful search-not as UG exagerates -that because we have invented a Goal,we are searching!What a stupid statement!!!
Here is a wonderful excerpt from Sri Aurobindo:
The earliest preoccupation of man in his awakened
thoughts and, as it seems, his inevitable and ultimate
preoccupation, -- for it survives the longest periods of
scepticism and returns after every banishment, -- is also the
highest which his thought can envisage. It manifests itself in
the divination of Godhead, the impulse towards perfection, the
search after pure Truth and unmixed Bliss, the sense of a secret
immortality. The ancient dawns of human knowledge have left
us their witness to this constant aspiration; today we see a
humanity satiated but not satisfied by victorious analysis of the
externalities of Nature preparing to return to its primeval
longings. The earliest formula of Wisdom promises to be its
last, -- God, Light, Freedom, Immortality."
This is what is driving us,ever onward.
As Sri Aurobindo so beautifully puts:All Life is Yoga.
Search is there as long as one perceives oneself as a Fraction.The search can be called off only if the numerator becomes infinty or the denominator becomes Zero.
Only the Infinite can be without wants.As The Upanishads say-Tat Tvam Asi-Thou art That.
Namaskar.
Anonymous,
"are you sure you are simply not annoyed that UG prefers to wipe out your "personal" God? The one that is so dear to you!
not a criticism, just curious"
Friend,I appreciate your query.My answer is YES on 2 counts:
1.I am not annoyed with UG for the simple reason that I do not know him and as a person he no longer is around.Yes,I am critical of his sayings,doings: it falls by the wayside.I KNOW it as NOT true.
2.There are so many others who did not admit of a 'personal' God-The Buddha,JK,etc-These are Teachers I have deep respect for.I may not always agree with whatever JK had said but I do not find anything fundamentaly different.These were men of Tremendous Integrity and they were thoroughly Rational and respected others.
Now let me come to 'Personal God'-All this means is that the infnite can be approached through the Finite.One need not cease to be Human in order to be Divine.This is one the most fundamental Truth and one that is the whole Beauty of the Mystery.If the Omnipotent cannot become the Limited,it cannot be omnipotent!
The 'Personal' God is true in as much as 'man' is true.This is ACTUAL and not imaginary.I do not feel threatened if smeone questions me on 'personal' God.I do not have to defend.More on this later.
Namaskar.
THE Paradox of Truth Teaching
-----------------------------------
Robert Adams:It's interesting, I'm really talking to myself because there's only the Self. So why am I talking to myself. I must be crazy. Many times when I talk to you I have to keep from laughing, explaining all these things, talking about all these things when you're already free and you already know these things and then he goes on to advise 'Develop compassion, humility and Love and then an aspirant asks Robert, I dont mean this irreverently, quite the contrary, but you tell us to try to develop these qualities of Love etc that you have described as beyond our comprehension. How do we try to develop something we can't comprehend? That’s it, Robert lost it and he knows it and that’s why he calls it ‘The paradox of Truth Teaching’.The moment a Jnani opens his mouth he has lost it. Papaji and Robert Adams started regular Satsangs only towards their end. Papaji travelled discretely all his life to avoid it. Lakshmans Swamy and Saradamma try very hard to stay away from it.
But there is a huge and desperate compulsion from aspirants for some sort of help or a few words.Somehow the assurance that ‘There is nobody who is not Realized’ is not enough. So they start bit by bit and to isolated cases. Then slowly books, temples, ashrams and cults will come out of it. Then over centuries there is bound to be distortion and further sects because the context behind every word spoken by the Jnani is forgotten or twisted.
David tries his best to nail down a Jnani and the teaching in his books.He repeatedly subjected them to intense questioning to pin them down and sometimes the Jnanis appear to be clueless or appear to waffle. I guess this not because of the Jnani but the because of the ‘Paradox of Truth Teaching’.We cannot pindown a Paradox.After trying to read all those thousands of high quality pages I tried to pindown a a purpose, a goal and a structured way just like David. Alas I utterly failed.Did the Jananis faile me?Did the author faile me?Did my intellect faile me?Did I waste my money and effort?Yes and No. Truth teaching and Truth following is a paradox. Truth itself does n’t exist because to conceive or seek is to nail down.That paradox, that Truth I guess is also called Consciousness.
hj,
"Ravi, you think a sage must always appear to be sane and rational but think of Sheshadri Swami and his encounter with Annamalai Swami."
Seshadri Swami is a great soul.He is more a siddha than a Sage.Sure enough he was not marked out as a Teacher.He used to direct people to Sri Bhagavan saying-If you come to me you can earn only 10 rupees;if you go there you can earn a Thousand!
It is true that among the paramahansas there are 4 categories-those who have the characteristic of a Ghoul,madcap,child or inert being.
These great souls are not role models and do not serve as Teachers.
In the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,the childlike Master talks about encountering one of these madcaps!
A few days after the dedication of the temple at Dakshineswar,
a madman came there who was really a sage endowed with the Knowledge of
Brahman. He had a bamboo twig in one hand and a potted mango-plant in the other,
and was wearing torn shoes. He didn't follow any social conventions. After bathing
in the Ganges he didn't perform any religious rites. He ate something that he
carried in a corner of his wearing-cloth. Then he entered the Kali temple and
chanted hymns to the Deity. The temple trembled. Haladhari was then in the shrine.
The madman wasn't allowed to eat at the guest-house, but he paid no attention to
this slight. He searched for food in the rubbish heap where the dogs were eating
crumbs from the discarded leaf-plates. Now and then he pushed the dogs aside to
get his crumbs. The dogs didn't mind either. Haladhari followed him and asked:
'Who are you? Are you a purnajnani?' The madman whispered, 'Sh! Yes, I am a
purnajnani.' My heart began to palpitate as Haladhari told me about it. I clung to
Hriday. I said to the Divine Mother, 'Mother, shall I too have to pass through such
a state?' We all went to see the man. He spoke words of great wisdom to us but
behaved like a madman before others. Haladhari followed him a great way when he
left the garden. After passing the gate he said to Haladhari: 'What else shall I say
to you? When you no longer make any distinction between the water of this pool and
the water of the Ganges, then you will know that you have Perfect Knowledge.'
Saying this he walked rapidly away."
There are such great souls but the point is that they are not meant to be Teachers-Many of them just create this facade of madness to get rid of the attention of worldly people.I believe Seshadri Swami is one such.Behind the facade,they have perfect,rational and razor sharp intellect.
More than anything they have abundant common sense!
More later,if inclination permits!
Namaskar.
The Paradox of Truth Teaching-2
*******************************
Extract form Nothing Ever Happened-Vol III, Page-109
.................................
David:Why are you trying so hard to bring to peace to the world that you say never existed?
Papaji:…………..Why am I trying so hard to bring peace to a world that never existed?[Papaji paused and laughed softly for about ten seconds]
You can take it all as a joke. I like my children to be in a happy mood. So I make jokes with them.I laugh and play with them to keep them happy.We have to spend a full life span on this earth.Why weep and cry all the time? Why not laugh and be happy instead?Why not be peaceful in this world?
Everything in this world is a big joke,including my teachings.I tell people, ‘If you this you win enlightenment’.Or I say, ‘You are already enlightened.Why are you so miserable?’ Or I may say ‘Don’t do anything.Don’t listen to anybody, just be quiet and see what happens.’
I say all these thingd every day but in my Heart I know it is all a big joke. I know that there is no world;I know that there is no one striving for enlightenment and I know that no one striving for enlightenment and I know that no one has ever attained it.This is my unshakable knowledge, my unshakable experience. If I say anything else, you can take it as a joke.
We come here for an hour or so every day and laugh with each other. What else can we do about this great joke that is being played outin fornt of our eyes?
Here is my prescription for world peace: a laugh a day keeps the world away.
..................................
It can’t get any more confusing than this. As Robert Adams put it:The Paradox of Truth Teaching
Friends,
What is a Paradox for the mind is not so for the Heart(Bhakta).Mind wants to limit things.It can only seize what is limited.It can only grasp one aspect at a time.It cannot reconcile opposites as two sides of a coin.
The Heart can easily do this-reconciling opposites!It understands without asking Why and How!It is simply content with What is!It understands that How and Why(The Rational Mind)are only a Transition to what is Beyond-which belongs to the Realm of Inspiration.
Here is an Excerpt from Swami Vivekananda:
"We find in all beings three sorts of instruments of knowledge. The first is instinct, which you find most highly developed in animals; this is the lowest instrument of knowledge. What is the second instrument of knowledge? Reasoning. You find that most highly developed in man. Now in the first place, instinct is an inadequate instrument; to animals, the sphere of action is very limited, and within that limit instinct acts. When you come to man, you see it is largely developed into reason. The sphere of action also has here become enlarged. Yet even reason is still very insufficient. Reason can go only a little way and then it stops, it cannot go any further; and if you try to push it, the result is helpless confusion, reason itself becomes unreasonable. Logic becomes argument in a circle. Take, for instance, the very basis of our perception, matter and force. What is matter? That which is acted upon by force. And force? That which acts upon matter. You see the complication, what the logicians call see-saw, one idea depending on the other, and this again depending on that. You find a mighty barrier before reason, beyond which reasoning cannot go; yet it always feels impatient to get into the region of the Infinite beyond. This world, this universe which our senses feel, or our mind thinks, is but one atom, so to say, of the Infinite, projected on to the plane of consciousness; and within that narrow limit, defined by the network of consciousness, works our reason, and not beyond. Therefore, there must be some other instrument to take us beyond, and that instrument is called inspiration. So instinct, reason, and inspiration are the three instruments of knowledge. Instinct belongs to animals, reason to man, and inspiration to God-men. But in all human beings are to be found, in a more or less developed condition, the germs of all these three instruments of knowledge. To have these mental instruments evolved, the germs must be there. And this must also be remembered that one instrument is a development of the other, and therefore does not contradict it. It is reason that develops into inspiration, and therefore inspiration does not contradict reason, but fulfils it. Things which reason cannot get at are brought to light by inspiration; and they do not contradict reason. The old man does not contradict the child, but fulfils the child. Therefore you must always bear in mind that the great danger lies in mistaking the lower form of instrument to be the higher. Many times instinct is presented before the world as inspiration, and then come all the spurious claims for the gift of prophecy. A fool or a semi-lunatic thinks that the confusion going on in his brain is inspiration, and he wants men to follow him. The most contradictory irrational nonsense that has been preached in the world is simply the instinctive jargon of confused lunatic brains trying to pass for the language of inspiration."
I warmly recommend the Talk -The Ideals of a Universal Religion-By Swamiji,one of the Giant intellects of our recent Past,an intellect that not just analyses but synthesises as well.Please refer:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Practical_Vedanta_and_other_lectures/The_Ideal_of_a_Universal_Religion
....Continued......
Friends,
...Paradox continued...
In one sense 'How' and 'Why' are just prattles of a child mind-Like the way we face a child's question when it asks-Why a Butterfly does not fly in a straight line?We cannot tell the child that it need not do so or otherwise.We have to tell it that that is the way it enjoys flying and this may be as true as any other answer.In the same way,the Lila theory explains that the world came into existence because the Supreme simply delighted in doing so!
Paradox is of the mind ,not able to grasp or explain what it observes.The other name coined for this is 'Maya'.It is not an aspect of the Truth itself.
Namaskar.
Ravi,
did you ever read Richard Schiffman's, "Sri Ramakrishna - A Prophet for the New Age"?
i read this book 20 yrs ago, and at the time thought it fantastic.
20 yrs on i wonder if it would still be 'fantastic'!, given my changes........to be tested
any way, just wondering if you ever read it and if yes, what did you think?
regards
Friends,
" and then he goes on to advise 'Develop compassion, humility and Love and then an aspirant asks Robert, I dont mean this irreverently, quite the contrary, but you tell us to try to develop these qualities of Love etc that you have described as beyond our comprehension. How do we try to develop something we can't comprehend? That’s it, Robert lost it and he knows it and that’s why he calls it ‘The paradox of Truth Teaching’.The moment a Jnani opens his mouth he has lost it."
The Jnani does not lose anything-it is only the mind operating on the superficial data and trying to get at the Whole that does not get the drift!To 'develop' love means to 'uncover' it.Everyone knows this but all 'Ignore' it as insignificant ,as 'trivial' as 'common' ,as 'Flimsy' ,etc,etc.
Stop thinking about definitions of 'Love' and start with what little we know and feel what LOVE is.Sure enough the tiny spark is covered with Smoke and the smoke leaves its stain.Just accept this and have the courage to blow the spark.Love your spouse,your child ,your neighbour,your dog,your plant.As we go along the 'your' or the 'I' will be pushed to the background.The Flame may take over!
On the other hand if we listen to 'others' who may say-Your Love is just attachment or as UG may say 'It is just a mass of Shit' ,that is the end!It is Atavism at its worst.This is the Reason that the Sanathana Dharma has so beautifully graded the stages of Life-As Brahmacharya,Grihastha,vanaprashtha,Sannyasa.
Just imagine Telling our Children-"Do not go to school,afterall you are going to end up dying;Why bother to learn your ABC or your Arithmetic-None of these will come in handy when you exit the world."
What a Farce that would be!
In a like manner no wise Teacher would tell the child souls-"Call of your search.There is nothing to look for.It is all your imagination."
This is why the Upanishads again and again give the rousing Drum Beat of Destiny-Uthishtatha Jagratha Prapya Varaan Nibodhatha-Arise!Awake!Stop not till the Goal is attained!
Just look at The Balance the Upanishads have!Observe the Sequence-Arise First!Next comes Awakening!Not the other way around-Just Marvellous!These words have the Mantric Vibrance to actualise the Truth in the Heart of the Listener.
Just compare this Blazing sunshine with the ordinary words of Twilight knowledge.We clearly can understand the difference.
Namaskar.
This is my unshakable knowledge, my unshakable experience.
This is the important point. In contact with the nature of reality there is no need for discussions and arguing.
No one who really knows that he will die would feel the need to prolong his life and to continue with striving.
But the human world in fact works the other way round. The human world can not understand what is clear and easy to understand - that the sun already existed before man appeared on this planet.
The human world jokes because it thinks that the human world will exist forever and that the jokes will continue forever. The sage jokes because he/she knows and experiences that the human world and the universe around us is like the shadow of a cloud on the ground. Many scientists are more advanced in this understanding than our spiritual teachers.
I wouldn't say it is a paradox teaching because there is no paradox in eating and drinking AND the knowledge of the mortality of the body. Our firm belief in things that don't exist is paradox.
The most of our spiritual teachers try to better human life. Therefore the endless discussions. Although this is honourable and somewhat necessary this approach is not based on the final reality and is therefore not the final teaching. Ask the dying people - they know the truth of this world.
Who or what are you without others around you? Without all this human ideas? Have you ever think about it? U. G. tried to point out exactly this.
Ravi I enjoyed the story of the siddha 'madman', I have not read that story before.Why was Hriday sent away by Ramakrishna as we know he was so devoted to the master?
The Paradox of Truth Teaching-3
*******************************
Extract form the book:No Mind, I am the Self, Page-185
...............................
David:Lakshmana Swamy had just spent about half an hour answering questions, some of them rather aggressive, from devotees. Saradamma waited till Swamy and all the questioners had left and then made the following comments:
So may people today had so many doubts. Swamy answered them all like a mirror, each answer reflecting the state of mind of the questioner. As I listened I knew that the questions had no validity and the answers no real truths because the Truth cannot be expressed in words. I listened to all those words and I knew that none of them were true, not even Swamy’s. The words are not real, none of you here is real, the world is not real; nothing is real except the Self.
Dakshinamurti had the right idea: he just kept quiet when people tried to question him. Swamy can answer all these philosophical questions but I cannot do this. When someone asks me a question I know the answer but I cannot express it in words. The answer tomost questions is the experience of the Self and this cannot be communicated verbally. When people asks me such questions Self swallows up the question and no answer comes out.I cannot force an answer to come because there is no ‘I’ to do it with. Answers either come out automatically or not at all. Usually they do not come at all so I just remain silent.
Anonymous,
"did you ever read Richard Schiffman's, "Sri Ramakrishna - A Prophet for the New Age"?
Friend,I have not read this book.Yes,it is always interesting to know what anyone has to say on this subject so dear to me.You may share anything from this book,if you have access to this Book.
I have the following Books on Sri Ramakrishna-1.Sri Ramakrishna and his Divine Play by Swami Saradananda,2.A Portrait of Sri Ramakrishna by Akshay Kumar Sen.Both these are written by Direct Disciples of the Great Master.The portrait was called Sri Sri Ramakrishna-Punthi in its original Bengali and this work was highly regarded by Swami Vivekananda.The one by Swami Saradananda was written much later ,after the passing away of Swami V.
However,I always enjoy reading the wonderful biography of Sri Ramakrishna in Tamil written by a Great devotee Sri Ra Ganapathy.RG has a style like Irving Stone-if you have read his biographical novel-The Agony and The Ecstasy-on the Life of Michaelangelo.
RG's is a wonderfully evocative and vivid Portrayal of one of the Great Masters of all times.What a Life-what an explorer of the spiritual Realm!How simple and yet how unfathomable!Sweet and accessible to one and all.How Childlike and yet How ripe in Wisdom.A Householder and yet a Renunciant.How Human and Yet How Divine.Truly unique in every possible way.
I tend to get lost when I start dwelling on this subject.
So that is it!For now!
To come back to what you said-Yes,please give it a second reading.I am pretty sure you will find this an absorbing experience.
I also warmly recommend The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna-An absolutely fascinating and riveting spiritual companion.Why to run here and there looking for Satsangh?Through this wonderful book,one can easily sit and chat with this sweetest of Masters.There is nothing that is not covered here.
Quite similiar is The Letters from Sri Ramanasramam-a Book that puts us at the Feet of Sri Bhagavan,undoubtedly the Spiritual Hercules as Sri Aurobindo called him.
Reading the Lives and Teachings of Great Masters is a sweet and simple Sadhana.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Anonymous,
"Why was Hriday sent away by Ramakrishna as we know he was so devoted to the master? "
Hriday was not sent out by the Master.It was the temple management that sent out Hriday for doing Kanya pooja(worshipping the virgin daughter of Mathur's son).The Master did not intervene.
Yes,Hriday served the Master;yet egotism got the better of him and he had to pay the penalty and suffer later in Life.
Quite a tragedy of sorts.
More on this later.
Namaskar.
"The intense pleasure in meditating on God took away the binding effects of her good deeds. Then her intense misery of soul in not attaining unto Him washed off all her sinful propensities; and then she became free." —
तच्चिन्ताविपुलाह्लादक्षीणपुण्यचया तथा। तदप्राप्ति महद्दुःखविलीनाशेषपातका॥ निरुच्छासतया मुक्तिं गतान्या गोपकन्यका॥
(Vishnu-Purâna).
Friends,
One morning before daybreak in North Calcutta, a teenage boy was bathing in the Ganges when he saw something floating near him. Some people on the shore saw it too, and shouted: “Crocodile! Crocodile! Come out quickly!” The boy immediately rushed towards the shore; but he stopped while still standing in the knee-deep water and thought to himself: “What are you doing? You repeat day and night, ‘Soham! Soham!’ [I am He! I am He!] And now all of a sudden you forget your ideal and think that you are the body! Shame on you!” He immediately went back into the deep water and continued his bathing. Fortunately, the crocodile had left.
This fearless boy was Harinath Chattopadhya, who would grow up to become Swami Turiyananda. He was born on 3 January 1863, in North Calcutta.
Harinath met Sri Ramakrishna for the first time at Dinanath Basu’s house in Baghbazar, Kolkata. He was then thirteen or fourteen years old. This first meeting with the God-intoxicated saint left a deep impression on Harinath’s mind.
Gradually, Harinath became familiar with Ramakrishna and began to ask all sorts of questions. “Sir”, he asked one day, “how can one become free from lust completely?” Sri Ramakrishna replied: “Why should it go, my boy? Give it a turn in another direction. What is lust? It is the desire to get. So desire to get God and strengthen this desire greatly, the more you go towards the east, the farther you will be away from the west.”
To live with Sri Ramakrishna was a great education. Harinath later recalled: One day at Dakshineshwar the Master said to me: “Go to the Panchavati. Some devotees had a picnic there. See if they have left anything behind. If you find anything, bring it here.” I went and found an umbrella in one place, a knife in another place, and some other articles. I gathered them up and took them to the Master. The knife had been borrowed from him. I was just placing it on the shelf when he said: “Where are you putting it? No, not there. Put it underneath this small bedstead. That is where it belongs. You must put everything in it's proper place. Suppose I need the knife during the night. If you put it anywhere you please, I will have to go around the room in the dark, stretching out my arms in search of it, wondering where you put it. Is such service a service? No! You do things as you like and thereby only cause trouble. If you want to serve properly, you should completely forget yourself.”
This is the thorough grounding in fundamentals that one gets from Great Masters.Recall how Sri Bhagavan used to keep the few books in the shelf nearby,how he used to cut vegetables,how he used to cook without wasting anything.These are the key lessons to be learnt.
Sri Ramakrishna used to say-He who does not know the price of Salt,will not know the Price of Sugar.
Contrast this with-"There is nothing to be done.No Goal to be pursued.Give up this seeking" type of a pseudo teaching.
Namaskar.
Someone told me that after decades of searching for an end to suffering, they had “fallen into a conviction” that the only way suffering, their own and the worlds, could ever come to an end was for the ‘me’ to go; ie. be extinguished, dissolve.
This “conviction” was unlike an intellectual, conceptual or theoretical understanding, in that it expressed itself as an absolute and undeniable certainty resonating through every atom of their being.
The effect was to leave them with the surety that nothing of the world (wealth, ownership, sensual satisfaction etc.), had the power to remove suffering once and for all. Which in turn focused and intensified their commitment to self-enquiry as being the only solution to the end of suffering.
Interesting to have such conviction. I wonder if it will last!
But is this the only way……..the ‘me’ must go!?
Anonymous,
If we do not want something ,we simply drop it.There is no question of a 'conviction' that it must be dropped.
All this means is that we end up 'redifining' our objective-instead of getting rid of the 'world'and its suffering ,one wants to get rid of the 'me'.It is one and the same-for in Truth 'we are the world'.If this is truly understood,then there is no need to get rid of anything-The 'world' or the 'me'.
Ofcourse,as a preparatory step such 'convictions' do help and strengthen the Sadhana-Be it Self Enquiry or devotional path or whatever.This is what is called 'Vairagya' or Dispassion.The Intense thirst to get rid of the 'me' is called 'Mumukshutva'-Desire for Freedom.It is indeed good to have this sort of conviction and he who has put his heart and soul into this sort of Sadhana-one can be sure that it will last.This sort of a thing does last even spanning several births!
Yes,as you have rightly wondered,this ofcourse is not the only path!
Wishing that seeker all the Very Best.
Namaskar.
hj/Friends,
While speaking on the true spirit of a Sannyasin, Swami Vivekananda said:
"I saw many great men in Hrishikesh. One case that I remember was that of a man who seemed to be mad. He was coming nude down the street, with boys pursuing and throwing stones at him. The whole man was bubbling over with laughter while blood was streaming down his face and neck. I took him and bathed the wound, putting ashes on it to stop the bleeding. And all the time with peals of laughter he told me of the fun the boys and he had been having, throwing the stones. 'So the Father plays', he said.
Many of these men hide, in order to guard themselves against intrusion. People are a trouble to them. One had human bones strewn about his cave and gave it out that he lived on corpses. Another threw stones. And so on. . . ."
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
MASTER: "So you have been to Benares. Did you see any holy men there?"
MANILAL: "Trailanga Swami keeps a strict vow of silence. Unlike him, Bhaskarananda is
friendly with all."
MASTER: "Did you have any conversation with Bhaskarananda?"
MANILAL: "Yes, sir. We had a long talk. Among other things we discussed the problem of
good and evil. He said to me: 'Don't follow the path of evil. Give up sinful thoughts. That is
how God wants us to act. Perform only those duties that are virtuous.' "
The seer of God transcends good and evil
MASTER: "Yes, that is also a path, meant for worldly-minded people. But those whose
spiritual consciousness has been awakened, who have realized that God alone is real and all
else illusory, cherish a different ideal. They are aware that God alone is the Doer and others
are His instruments.
"Those whose spiritual consciousness has been awakened never make a false step. They do
not have to reason in order to shun evil. They are so full of love of God that whatever
action they undertake is a good action. They are fully conscious that they are not the doers
of their actions, but mere servants of God. They always feel: 'I am the machine and He is
the Operator. I do as He does through me. I speak as He speaks through me. I move as He
moves me.'
"Fully awakened souls are beyond virtue and vice. They realize that it is God who does
everything.
Seeing God in everything
"There was a monastery in a certain place. The monks residing there went out daily to beg
their food. One day a monk, while out for his alms, saw a landlord beating a man
mercilessly. The compassionate monk stepped in and asked the landlord to stop. But the
landlord was filled with anger and turned his wrath against the innocent monk. He beat the
monk till he fell unconscious on the ground. Someone reported the matter to the monastery.
The monks ran to the spot and found their brother lying there. Four or five of them carried
him back and laid him on a bed. He was still unconscious. The other monks sat around him
sad at heart; some were fanning him. Finally someone suggested that he should be given a
little milk to drink. When it was poured into his mouth he regained consciousness. He
opened his eyes and looked around. One of the monks said, 'Let us see whether he is fully
conscious and can recognize us.' Shouting into his ear, he said, 'Revered sir, who is giving
you milk?' 'Brother,' replied the holy man in a low voice, 'He who beat me is now giving
me milk.'
"But one does not attain such a state of mind without the realization of God."
MANILAL: "Sir, what you have just said applies to a man of a very lofty spiritual state. I
talked on such topics in a general way with Bhaskarananda."
MASTER: "Does he live in a house?"
MANILAL: "Yes, sir. He lives with a devotee."
MASTER: "How old is he now?"
MANILAL: "About fifty-five."
MASTER: "Did you talk about anything else?"
MANILAL: "I asked him how to cultivate bhakti. He said: 'Chant the name of God. Repeat
the name of Rama.' "
MASTER: "That is very good."
The worship was over in the temples and the bells rang for the food offerings in the shrines.
As it was a summer noon the sun was very hot. The flood-tide began in the Ganges and a
breeze came up from the south. Sri Ramakrishna was resting in his room after his meal.
Someone has said they have sighted pug marks of a Leopard on and around Arunachala? Is this possible?
Anonymous
It is highly unlikely that the marks were leopard footprints. There have been no confirmed sightings of leopards on Arunachala for decades.
A survey a few years ago found that there is a population of rusty spotted cats on the mountain, the smallest of the wild cats that exist in India. These are not feral animals; they are a native nocturnal species of cat that is quite rare in India. They are much bigger than domestic cats, but smaller than a leopard. We also have jungle cats, a species that is slightly bigger than the rusty spotted cats. No live jungle cats have been spotted, but one was found dead on the road a year or so ago.
Leopards roam up to 40 km every night. It is possible that one may arrive at Arunachala and decide it is a good place to stay. There are more than enough monkeys and deer to sustain a single leopard. However, if leopards started breeding here, there wouldn't be enough food to go round. There is no corridor through which excess leopards could move to other suitable terrains, so it would not be a good place for leopards to colonise.
Apropos nothing at all: a wild elephant was spotted about 40 km from here this week. The nearest wild bears are in the forests around Gingee (38km away) and the nearest crocodiles are in a river near Chengam.
Friends, A little-known concept is that if you 'want it all', you have
to be able to 'accept it all'.
HJ
David,
Time for new post!
HJ, this is true. Let me try to vary it:
Your desires can be fulfilled only by abandoning them.
HJ and Clemens,
Could both of you, if possible, please elaborate on your previous comments?
'Accepting' the desires would lead to their fulfillment, is how I understand it. I think that was not the intended message from HJ.
Thanks,
m
Or:
Your desires can be fulfilled only by knowing their source.
G.V. Subbaramayya had a close and very fortunate relationship with Ramana.
In the final darshan that took place on April 4th 1950.
Sri Bhagavan asked me, 'What do you want?'
I said with streaming eyes 'I want freedom from fear'
Sri Bhagavan replied with overflowing grace, 'I have already given it'.
What a wonderful answer that gave total reassurance.
hj
In addition G.V Subbaramayya's translation of Sri Ramana Gita.
'When we came to canto five, verse six, Sri Bhagavan observed that it was from his own direct experience that he first discovered the spiritual heart to be on the right side of the chest. It was only later that he read about this heart centre in a Malayalam edition of Ashtangahridyam'.
I believe Arthur Osborne also concentrated on the right side of the chest using it as a meditation technique.
hj
Peace of mind, I don't know where I have been.
Peace of mind, please come and let me in.
Well, the eagle screeches and the day turns black.
The whole wide world feels the weight of attack.
But don't lose your courage, don't fall on your knees,
Don't give into anger, or feel ill at ease.
Just lay down your weapon as I lay down mine.
We'll make a little movement toward Peace of Mind.
mark bittner
Can anybody compare and contrast 'Self-Enquiry' and 'Mindfulness'(of Buddhism)?Comments from practitioners appreciated. Thanks.
Unfortunately, few in the West understand the possibility
of this supreme state. To make matters worse, the philosophers
and theologians, who should be the ones to explain it, introduce confusion by misunderstanding and therefore denying or
misrepresenting it. In the East there is the opposite trouble—
that this possibility is widely understood and is therefore claimed
indiscriminately for every one who can gather disciples.
-Arthur Osborne from 'My Life and Quest'
-----------------------------------
I wouldn't say 'widely understood' but 'the possibility is widely known'
... is it possible that there is some kind of an upperlimit to comments to a post? The number of 312 comments do not change anymore - not even in Blogger.
Anonymous,
I have practiced both mindfulness and self-enquiry. I am a “theoretical” expert of neither, so I will describe the differences (for me) from an experiential/practice perspective.
Mindfulness uses willpower to shift attention to such objects as thought, feeling, breath.
Self-enquiry uses questions such as “who am I” to shift attention to the sense of ‘I’, the subject, with the intention of staying with this ‘I-ness’.
Hence, one might argue that mindfulness is interested in object and may move attention from object to object to object.
Whereas self-enquiry is interested in the subject ‘I’ and just stays with that.
I’m sure David will comment if I have mucked up the practice of self-enquiry.
Regards.
Ravi,
Here are two specifc links from a book on UG 'Mind is a Myth':
http://www.well.com/user/jct/chapter3.html
http://www.well.com/user/jct/chapter4.html
I think the way he puts it is very original.He is surely a great intellectual and a great communicator and all those words live, mostly unedited, blazing full blown,extempore.Surely they are very cutting, very insightful, very pithy and bang on the point.He may or may not be Realized but what I care is how useful are his words to me.Dont forget that some of Dattatreya's Gurus were animals and inanimate things and that does not mean I want to market UG to you.Surely UG has many good points and his language and style(not the acidity but just pointing out the absurdity) is very original and this is what matters otherwise Truth is very old, unchanging and boring.
He is Neti-Neti guy what do you expect; give you a shoulder to cry and an icepack.When he said 'I will tell like it is' he lived to the word.The moment you went to him he pulled the rug under your feet.He died without cheating anybody, without publishing any new theories or commentaries, without any copyrights to feed his followers or family, without establishing any ashrams or temples or cults,burned to ashes most uncermoniously in a municipality electric crematorium.If some Realized men established temples,cults and wrote books(which technically speaking render them fake) to attract all levels of followers 'may be' he used his 'Acid Tongue' to get the same effect.I too do not like some aspects of UG and I do not know if he is a Jnani but he did surely greatly help me.
In chapter-4 he explains why he takes the 'Anti-Guru' and 'nothing to teach' stand although he ended up just like others on both issues.
His strategy I guess is to 'To Point Out the Absurdity' without suggesting any solutions.This is the same as 'Choiceless Awareness' and in many respects 'Self-enquiry' but without actually being conscious of a solution and isn't that a smart and much better trick.Let me make his worst fears come true by naming his style :'Absurdity Awareness'.
David,
I recently came across a website which offers the PDF version of Be As You Are at no cost. Can this be a pirated version of your book? Is there an authorized PDF version available on the internet?
Thanks,
Gautham
The various online versions of Be As You Are are all pirated editions.
However, Amazon is now offering a legal ebook download that can be read on a Kindle reader. I think the price is $9.99.
Anonymous,
"but what I care is how useful are his words to me."
Wish you the very best.
Namaskar.
Wonderful story! An inmate of the Ashrama who had been serving
Bhagavan Ramana for many years started visiting a
certain woman in the town. Her relatives came to
know of it and decided to catch and kill the man.
One night they caught him at her house, bound him
hand and foot and locked him up in a room,
postponing the cutting of his throat until they had
found a safe way of disposing of the body. Our man
managed to escape and came running to the Ashrama,
pursued by his enemies. When he entered the gate
they gave up the chase. He entered the Hall
trembling and fell on the ground shouting: "Save
me, save me.'' Bhagavan ordered the doors to be
shut and said: "Don't fear, tell me what happened."
After having been told everything, he looked at the
culprit with understanding and pity and said
reassuringly: "Don't fear any more. Go and sleep."
From the next day the man was at his work and
Bhagavan would not mention the matter at all.
Everybody in the town came to know what happened.
The Ashrama people requested Bhagavan to send the
man away, for his presence would tarnish the good
name of the Ashrama. Bhagavan called the man and
told him in front of everybody: "You have done some
wrong, but you were too foolish to keep it secret.
Others do worse things, but they take care not to
be caught. Now, the people who were not caught want
you to leave the Ashrama because you were caught.
They will make your life miserable. You had better
stay outside for some time, until things settle
down." The man stayed with some devotees outside
the Ashrama and came back after a few months.
hj
AN INFANT IN YOUR ARMS
The tide of my love
Has risen so high let me flood
over
You.
Close your eyes for a moment
And maybe all your
fears and fantasies
Will end.
If that happened
God would become an infant in your
Arms
And then you
Would have to nurse all
Creation!
Hafiz
Reality won't be gained through a motivated
attempt. Neither the attempt to plug in,
trancend, be powerful, nor the motive to
disconnect, be somewhere else, be powerless.
Happy Hundredth Birth Anniversary to the Light of Papaji.
What a kind and loving soul he was.His door was open all times to all people.There was nothing you could be shy of asking him and that meant even temporary glimpses of the Self.He judged no one and on no level.He was first a compassionate human being before anything else.His hope was very humane.He broke all rules to be compassionate.He was a bundle of energy eternally hopeful.He juggled with all roles in Life with perfect enthusiasm and harmony even after Realization.
I would nick name him 'Rasgulla'.His message and love lives on.I fully recommend the book series 'Nothing Ever happened' and it is also very entertaining like the 'Autobiography of a Yogi'.
@ David Godman,
I really highly recommend some of the Society of Abidance in Truth books. Your understanding is obviously very deep. I think you would really appreciate them, if you haven't gotten them already. And, in my experience, Master Nome, is undoubtedly fully realized. It seems like some of the books produced by SAT are the books, where people have a lack of clarity regarding non-dual teachings, or Maharshi's teachings. i.e. Maharshi recommended Ribhu Gita. So SAT produced a brilliant (easily the best in my opinion) English translation of both Tamil and Sanskrit Ribhu Gitas. Self-Inquiry by Maharshi was either overlooked, or misunderstood. Nome wrote a brilliant commentary that A. R. Natarajan praised. Saddarshanam is brilliant. I really recommend that you read this. And right now, I hear, Nome is translating, and commenting on the Sanskrit version of Upadesa Saram. I have no doubts being here, that Nome is a jnani. And all these books are highly worthwhile.
Friends,
Swami Adbhutananda, or Latu Maharaj, as he was known to the
circle of devotees of Sri Ramakrishna, came to the Master when quite young.
He was the servant boy of Ramachandra Datta, a devotee of Sri Ramakrishna. He became one of
the monastic disciples of the Master. Latu Maharaj never knew how to read
or write.Sri Ramakrishna tried to teach him the alphabets in Bengali and gave up the attempt in exasperation! From the Master Latu however learned the art of reading the book of
knowledge which is within every human soul. Whatever he himself taught
later came directly from that same source-book of wisdom the knowledge of
God.
Adbhuta means 'Wonder'-How this unlettered Boy was a 'wonder' of a storehouse of Wisdom.An Excerpt from his Talks:
"Brahman is Truth, and whosoever observes truthfulness
and wills to know Truth shall surely attain it. The power to
will is the greatest gift bestowed upon man, and nothing can
stand against one whose will is awakened. Will and impulse
or desire, however, must not be confused. Impulse or desire
is a degeneration of the will. What is it that man truly wills?
It is the attainment of Ananda, that everlasting peace, and
this is attained only by finding the Satchidanandar-the Infinite
Being, the Infinite Wisdom, and the Infinite Love.
The true purpose of human birth is to fulfill this one, this
only will, to realize God which is truly the motive power
behind all other desires. Unhappy is the man who forgets
this purpose, and loses himself in the meshes of petty desires
and impulses. Desiring first one thing, then another and yet again something else is but impulse, and can be likened unto
a man, who, desiring to sink a well, digs first in one place
and then in another, never completing one well, and never
reaching the water. Not by such impulses and desires can
the thirst for God be quenched. Therefore, I say unto you,
will to attain the Truth, the Kingdom of Self.
This Kingdom is never lost. It may lie hidden, covered
with dirt, but it is forever within. Brahman is ever pure, ever
free, self-luminous, and that Brahman is one's very Self. Just
as a gold vessel may be covered with dirt, yet lose nothing of
its true nature, so the true Self lies hidden within, and remains
forever unaffected by the dirt of ignorance covering it.
Man is ever conscious of the existence of this Self. Every
time he says "my body,
"my mind," "my intelligence/' etc.,
he unconsciously admits the existence of an "I," of a "Self."
Because of this ignorance which clouds man's true Self, he is
unable to manifest his real nature. Hence the necessity of
spiritual disciplines."
Namaskar.
Wei Wu Wei aka Terence James Stannus Gray (14 September 1895 – 5 January 1986), The Open Secret
("The Open Secret" is one of the best available elaborations on Nonduality)
I am the dreamer of myself in the dream in which I appear, but as such what I am is not the objective (dreamed) appearance, and so I am no entity.
It is not the object that awakens, but it is the identi fication of the dreamer with his object that causes the illusion of bondage.
Awakening is disappearing, dissolving, vanishing as an object. Awakening is the dissolution of appearance, the evaporation of a dream or an illusion.
Awakening is the disappearance of phenomenality (of the objective, of all objectivity as such). Awakening is the discovery that the apparently objective is in fact 'subjective', and the apparent entity has disappeared with the total appearance.
Student: "What is the purpose of suffering?"
Poonjaji: "Who would ever search for the truth unless they suffered?"
hj
This is a post of gratitude.
Just got back from a two-day trip to Lucknow for Papaji's 100th Birthday Celebrations. The trip was made possible by Papaji's Grace - getting two days off in the middle of a hectic week.
This was my first trip to Lucknow, and my only desire was to meet and speak with people who had spent a lot of time with Papaji - Mr. Om Prakash Syal and Mr. Sharad Tiwari.
And it happened exactly that way. I spent a good few hours with these two devotees and Dev Gogoi, pumping them with questions and getting my own doubts clarified. I wanted to know what it felt to be at the feet of a living God, and I got some answers which I cannot put down in words.
David, much gratitude for 'Nothing ever Happened'. My constant re-reads of 'NEH' made sure that on this trip, I did manage to spend time with Papaji.
PS: From the time I reached Lucknow to the time I left, the feeling was very close to being in Tiruvannamalai. Somehow suffused with that quiet energy.
Nandu Narasimhan
Nandu,
Please feel free to report all u've seen, heard and felt; just imagine that u've been sent to report to this blog.Cheerio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iApFCwhRZTE
i found myself annoyed listening to this uninformed nit-wit
please David, send him the facts.
Nandu,
It's wonderful that you got to meet Om Prakash and Sharad. Do share all the conversations that you had with them (you have to put them down in words for all of us). How did you know that there was going to be a celebration for Papaji's 100th birth anniversary? Are there any other celebrations coming up? If I wanted to meet devotees like Om Prakash and Sharad, how do I do that? Do any of them conduct satsangs? Sorry to put so many questions to you - I'd have loved to do what you just did.
Hello to all the wonderful people on this blog!
Hi David,
Thank you for this wonderful blog. I will always be thankful to your book on Sharada. I have now become her desciple (hopefully) forever.
Anyhow I have a few questions that have been bothering me for several months:
1) Why is Sharada not accessible to her devotees? Did something happen during the time she was guiding the desciples that resulted in this total seclusion?
2) I have recntly read book written on Satosha Tantra who clims to be heart sister of Sarada. I have pictures of Sarada in the books giggling and dancing with Santosha tantra. I do not have much respect for that lady. Why is Sarada so accessible to this lady where I could not even have glimpse of her when i waited for two days in Arunachala in front of her house.
This is not meant to be critical. I am bit confused. Please help get through this confusion.
3) After your original work on Sarada, with the exception of a few cryptic words on her website, there is nothing to read about Sarada's teachings. Is there anyway you can post a seperate blog of her recent teachings and recent activities for helping devotees like me?
4) In Satosha Tantra's book, she claims that Sarada confided with her that she is frustrated with lack of progress and lack devotion of her devotees and she wanted to leave her body because of that!!! I could not believe that. IS this kinf dejection possible for a Jnani? Is n't it true that as far Jnani is concerned, body is not existent?
Thank you for reading my comment.
A Devotee of Sharada
Dear Anonymous,
The conversations I had with Om Prakashji and Sharadji were normal questions and answers. Just that each one of them seemed to be suffused with Papaji's Grace.
Om Prakashji lives in Lucknow while Sharadji lives In Bhopal, I think. The latter is highly reticent, and mostly prefers to remain silent.
Nandu Narasimhan
Dear David and friends, I just received The Mountain Path and really enjoyed reading the article Umapati Sivam and the enlightened Thorn bush.
hj
Dear SaradaBhaktha,
Hope the following helps.Needless to say all opinion expressed are personal.
The style of Amma Sarada is a bit of Dakshinamurthi.I had similar questions just like you in the beginning.Why Sarada and Lakshmana Swamy are very recluse while Ramana was available 24X7? There is no 'I' in them to make these decisions.They just do as directed by Self.So we cannot judge them personally in any way.That is what I read in books about Ramana, LakshmanaSarada and Papaji. Lil story:During the days when it was still early when Alagammal(Ramana's mother) died and was creamated at the site of the present Ashram, Bhagawan and party would often come down the Hill to the Samadhi for Puja and other rituals.One evening he refused to go back up to the Hill and said something like; the same power that brough me from Madurai to Arunachala is now asking me to stay back here and from then on the present Ashram came up there.Bhagavan sometimes felt he is sitting in a Jail.I can't even imagine doing that for a couple of months and Bhagavan did that for decades.So in both the incidents it was the Self making these decisions, so I read.
The second point is, initially, there is a lot emotion especially when you first come across your new hope, in your case Saradamma and I have no doubt it is genuine feeling.But the acid test is how steady is this over time say in a year's time.
[SaradaBhaktha contd..]
[SaradaBhaktha contd..]
The third point is LakshmanaSarada are only interested in Ripe or Ready souls ready for Nirvana. Lakshmana Swamy said he is always ready to help the Ripe.So are you ready to give up everything I mean your family, job, passions, possessions and all that for the sake of Realization. This is the acid test that Papaji often played on seekers who wanted to see God or wanted Nirvana. My experience is that sometimes we do not carefully consider what we really are asking for.If we want it sooner, then it might also mean we should be ready to forego a lot of our attachments which means ready for a lot of misfortune just like Lord Krishna blessed his devout disciple by blessing his cow to die , the only and the last possession of the devotee.Lord Krishna maintained that the cow was his last attachment and so he took it away so that his devotee from then on could spend his time fully on God.That does not mean we have to judge ourselves if we are ready or ripe. Once Papaji granted a full flow of grace on one his lady disciples and the disciple protested that she did not deserve so much grace.Papaji became very angry and said in matters like these the Guru is the best judge.So in your case if Saradamma did not let you in, that decision is the best for you and for now.That is how I would take it. She will know more about you than you yourself.
I was once told that Lakshmana Swamy said something like, his heart/brain? is like the Vishnu Chakra, revolving continuously to hear any prayers from any devotee anywhere in the world.Saradamma said in 'No mind I am the Self' that if any devotee thinks of her she will immediately know it; distance doest not matter.So if you persist and your devotion is unwavering over time, you will get what you want from her or if your destiny is with some other Guru you will be told.
Some Jnanis tried to be recluse by constantly travelling and giving their whereabouts to a select few. Some tried to put on various facades by acting mad, hiding or staying silent.LakshmanaSarada do not travel and so they have to face this constant misconception that they are being very hard and cold on seekers.I also had such misconceptions and now I think that their style is the best; i.e of Dakshinamurthi.Probably the Self decides the style and destiny of every Guru but the Guru himself cannot be judged by only what is apparent.Vevekananda,Ramakrshna Pramahamsa,Yogananda,Shridi Sai,Ramana,Papaji,LakshmanaSarada all had their own style, audience,place and time.We cannot judge each Guru by what is only apparent to us.Only the Self is All Knowledgeable and only it knows why.
More than 99% of those who approach want some sort of help with their problems in Samsara.This is what Saradamma says in No Mind I am the Self:
Page-211
Some people come here because they want their desires to be fulfilled.They come to Swamy with their personal problems and expect him to solve them all.Sometimes they come to me also.Several women have approached me and asked me to bless them so that they could have a baby.....Neither Swamy nor I do anything consciously to help these people, but if their devotion is strong, then help may come automatically.When people bring their personal problems to us it only proves that they have not really surrendered.If they had really surrendered to us, body and mind, then there would be no room for any complaints at all.
Page-213:-
When a person dies , all the karma he has accumulated is carried over into the next life.All of it must be experienced, both the consequences of the good actions and the consequences of the bad actions.The good karma does not wipe out the bad karma, nor does the smallest amount of punya[merit] wipe out even the smallest piece of papa[demerit or sin].
Some people say that a person's last thoughts affect his next birth.There is a common belief that if a person dies thinking of God, then he will automatically go to heaven or get a good rebirth..This is not so....
Anonymous,
"Mindfulness uses willpower to shift attention to such objects as thought, feeling, breath.
Self-enquiry uses questions such as “who am I” to shift attention to the sense of ‘I’, the subject, with the intention of staying with this ‘I-ness’."
I too have dwelt on this and his is my purely personal view.
There are three modes in which we exist
1. Lost and identified in thoughts
2. Observing the thoughts - not lost in thoughts (mindfulness)
3. Observing the observer (enquiry)
Normally we are in the stage one. I think that the mindfulness is a step towards step 3.
One thing common between mindfulness and enquiry is that in both states, we are not lost/identified in thoughts.
For me, this is a very interesting topic. Any insights would be great.
Regards Murali
Anonymous,
Thanks for your beautiful thoughts on Saradamma.
I am very interested by what you said, that Saradamma always knows it when a devotee thinks about her, whether he is far or close. I went
through "No Mind - I am the Self", but could not find the passage where she says that. Could you please indicate the page number ? That would be very nice.
Thanks a lot.
M.
Anonymous and friends, I'd like to point out that Ramana's mother was not cremated! The mother was buried according to the customs of a fully realised one.
As for Lakshmana and Sarada I would tread carefully before making many and varied excuses for them and their aloof behaviour.
I remain wary of exclusivity.
Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for you kind response. It was very affectionate and encouraging. In spite of these doubts I have to admit that Sarada helped in many ways spiritually. I can say the "progress" I have since I accepted her as Guru is more than the progress I have made for last 20 years of spiritual quest. Though the logical side of my mind may argue that it is pure coincidence, I have to state what it is and thank her for helping me understand myself. Even when I was in Arunachala I am not sure why but a part of me was saying that I may not be ready to face her yet. I am far from ripe but I have nothing material to ask her. When I was thinking of what I need to ask her if I have the chance to meet her, I had NOTHING.
As fellow devotee I am glad to share that when I was doing regular prayers to her, I was reading Vemana poems in Telugu and came across so many deeply spiritual poems that teach indentical message as Sarada Lakshmana. I compile them on a notebook with my handwriting and presented it at the gate when I was there. I have also jotted some occasional silly questions I had in the same notebook. It is my way of "presenting" the questions to her and forget abou them.
If any of you are from Telugu background I highly recomend Vemana poems for deeply spiritual guidance that is almost like Ramana's teaching.
Thank you,
Sharada Bhaktha
By the way how do I start a new thread on this blog?
Quiet & Silence - Nisargadatta
When you are not in a hurry and the mind is free from anxieties, it becomes
quiet and in the silence something may be heard which is ordinarily too
fine and subtle for perception. The mind must be open and quiet to see. You
need not worry about your worries. Just be. Do not try to be quiet; do not
make "being quiet" into a task to be performed. Don't be restless about
"being quiet", miserable about "being happy". Just be aware that you are,
and remain aware. Don't say "Yes, I am. What next?" There is no "next" in
"I am". It is a timeless state.
Saradabhaktha,
Only the blog owner (Davidji, in this case) can start a new thread.
Wishing you the very best in your sadhana.
m
Yeah, things are great here. And my spirituality is really developing. Man Satsang here, really blows the mind. It's so great! There is nothing that compares. Still in between, need it again! There is nothing that compares in all the world, to being around a realized person. Not I, but thou! Prostrations! I look forward to the next event, so much, between events. The dialogues are great to listen to. And when I dialogue, I get floored. I don't know if media could capture it. When I watch a video, it's not the same. In person, the whole world fades into the background, and only the Guru exists. In Satsang yesterday, I related this to Nome, and he patiently listened to all I said, and then after I was done, I can't remember the exact words, but it was a very Papaji moment, he said, "Close your eyes" (pause) "And now where are you?" I vaguely remember, though my mind wasn't present to record it, that he said something while my eyes were closed about how, without the senses, your Existence is not dependent. But I can't remember what he said, only the gist. My mind was so stopped, that I couldn't think of anything to respond. I just sat there with my eyes closed (extremely blissful). When I opened, them, I saw that he was graciously smiling at me. What happened, was the obliteration of duality that I experienced in eye contact with him, which is what I related, became my whole experience, the whole Temple around me, and myself was That! I say 'was', because inevitably ignorance clouded that pristine experience. But this morning, I was being read the Tamil Ribhu Gita Chapter 27 by one of the people here, with another person present as well. They've both been here a long time, and even though my experience was clouded, and I felt kind of gross showing up today, my experience became that pristine Reality itself again, as I looked at my red flower offering by the large Siva lingam, below the framed Maharshi picture in the Shrine room.
I post my experiences here, on my blog http://cephalopodmollusks.blogspot.com
I mention this, because I just wrote a beautiful account, which I will paste on my blog, and the Google blogger thing acted weird so I'm not sure it posted. I don't want to post it again, so it shows up twice. So if you are interested in experiences I have here, Ravi had expressed interest, feel free to visit my blog.
MATTHEW FILES
One of the saddest effects of a life separate from
God and unsurrendered to His Essential Being, is
the lack of trust between human beings. We really
do not trust one another, even in the midst of the
most "loving" and personal relationships. We
exhibit all kinds of superficial trust, or
"selective" trust, trusting where money is
concerned but not where sex is concerned or trusting
where sex is concerned but not where diet or
business is concerned, and so on. But the reality
of things should make it very plainly clear that we
do not trust other human beings in a very deep and
meaningful way, nor with any consistency. In fact it
is more common to trust animals, dogs and cats and
gerbils, by the average man, and even tigers and
lions by some, than to trust other human beings. To
say that dolphins are inherently "trustable" and
that humans are not does not address the essential
problem. Our lives are empty and painful, always
slightly on edge even when we ostensibly are
completely successful, because we do not trust one
another beyond the superficialities of social
convention.
Today during my regular prayer and contemplation I suddenly felt, if the mind does not exist the question of "Jnana" does not arise! Whose is the Jnana? For whom? It was totally blank for a few minutes! End of the road? Pitch black silence!
Sharada Bhaktha
P.S.: As I was writing this blog message that feeling was gone. Feeling very normal now.
Seeds to meditate:
A. Is yoga, then, not used for Advaita Vedanta?
R. The yoga that rests upon psycho-physical aspects, Advaita goes beyond it; there is no yoga higher than comprehension. He whose mind and heart are fused and pointed at comprehending goes directly to the center of Being. Yet Advaita does have, if I may use the expression, its own yoga which is called Asparsayoga.
Asparsa means without contact, without relations, without support. It is a yoga which is experienced by means of that threefold knowledge we have been talking about. Thus, it is a very specific yoga.
Brahman or the Absolute has no supports, because the Absolute rests upon itself alone; being One-without-a-second it cannot have any relation with anything. Therefore, Asparsayoga is the appropriate yoga for Brahman nirguna; it is the yoga of Non-duality; it is the yoga of the true sannyasin.
A. Who invented this yoga?
R. It was not invented, it is described in the Upanisads but the person who made it known was Gaudapada.
Gaudapada, under the influence of the Naraya…a Principle itself, revealed this yoga to men eagerly looking for Knowledge-realization. He immortalized it in the karika-verses which he added to the Mandukya Upanisad and which, in turn, were commented by the great Teacher Sankara. Thus, this Upanisad is extremely important for the non-dualistic Vedanta, because the two greatest exponents of Non-dualism converge here to codify and co-ordinate what we might call Advaita-asparsa, just as Patanjali co-ordinated the classical Rajayoga. Today this yoga is still taught by those disciples scattered around the world and who are linked to the chain or the asram of Gaudapada and Sankara, but they are just a few.
----------
Hello.I am reading 'SURPSSING LOVE AND GRACE'.I can't understand the section below(p103,104).Would you explain this section?Why did Bhagavan get angry.
''But such moods were only momentary, and he could switch
to his wonted geniality the next instant. Once Sri T. P. R. and I
decided to ask Sri Bhagavan for an explanation of the sixth
stanza of “Arunachala Ashtakam,” and went to the hall after Sri
Bhagavan returned from his usual walk on the Hill. In the
meanwhile something moved us. Sri Muruganar prostrated
before Sri Bhagavan and went out on his usual round for beggingfood from the town. We had just then ground in the mortar
jack fruit for a sweet dish for the midday meal, and Sri Muruganar
had given some donation for biksha since it was his mother’s
death anniversary. He was not there to taste the dish and we
were sorry. The fact that he was going out after giving something
for biksha in honour of his mother was brought to the notice of
Sri Bhagavan. Instantly there was a change in the face of
Bhagavan. He knew that Sri Muruganar was not a favourite
with the Ashram management. “Who is to invite him to stay
for meals? Chinnaswamy does not like him. He is the master
here”, said Bhagavan.''
I can't especially understand the sentences below.
1.In the meanwhile something moved us.
2.We had just then ground in the mortar jack fruit for a sweet dish for the midday meal
3.Who is to invite him to stay for meals?
--- “Who is to invite him to stay
for meals? Chinnaswamy does not like him. He is the master here”, said Bhagavan. ----
The above means that "Muruganar is a poor fellow and nobody has the guts to invite him to stay for meals against the wishes of Chinnaswamy, who is the controller of the ashram".
Here, Bhagavan is expressing pity for Muruganar.
Shiba,
"1.In the meanwhile something moved us.
2.We had just then ground in the mortar jack fruit for a sweet dish for the midday meal
3.Who is to invite him to stay for meals?"
This is just poor English.
1.Something moved us-meaning that they were sad at heart that Sri Muruganar had not taken Midday meals in the Ashram and instead had to go out for Bhiksha.
2.The Jackfruit was ground to pulp in a stone Grinder and a tasty sweet dish prepared.The writer felt it a pity that Sri Muruganar could not taste this.
3."Who is to invite him to stay for meals" is a literal translation-Only the Ashramites who worked in the Ashram were permitted to eat daily in the ashram.Other devotees had to make their own arrangements for Food,as per rules of the Ashram governed by the Sarvadhikari.Sri Bhagavan was simply saying that he had no 'say' in such matters-as inviting Sri Muruganar for the midday meal on that day.Sri Bhagavan would have been pleased had Muruganar taken his meals in the Ashram.Yet,this is typical of Sri Bhagavan,the very embodiment of Jnana-he was intensely Human and yet was totally detached from all that happened around him.
Namaskar.
Reading about early Buddhism all written in the Pali Canon. Was the Buddha a monk or a sadhu? Bikhu actually means beggar.
Over the centuries scripture has been modified and changed.
It's fascinating to see how fact and knowledge is embroidered upon
until the original message is all but lost in the myth.
hj
Thank you very much for your replies, Anonymous and Ravi.
My understanding gets deeper.
About 2, I understand 'ground' is past particle of 'grind'.I don't know the past particle.
About 1 and 3, I still can't translate this sentence into Japanese.
Bhagavan criticized Ashramites for not inviting Sri Muruganar for the middy meal or not? It is difficult.
"I was a learned fool. My flawed mind knew nothing
till I came to dwell with Him whose glance filled my
heart with the light of awareness. Dwelling in that
gracious state of peace, whose nature is holy
silence, so hard to gain and know, I entered into union
with the deathless state of the knowledge of reality."
Sri Muruganar
Shiba,
"Bhagavan criticized Ashramites for not inviting Sri Muruganar for the middy meal or not? It is difficult."
There is no criticism here.Just a statement of Fact by Sri Bhagavan,a wry observation.
There is no difficulty in understanding this-say if one is travelling in a crowded Bus(in India!)A few may have to travel standing and sometimes Elderly people keep standing while insensitive youngsters may be comfortably seated.One tends to Feel-It will be nice if someone offers the Elder a seat-but 'who is one to tell others'.
This is an expression of a genuine Feeling of Sympathy on the part of sri Bhagavan-He will be definitely pleased had Muruganar been invited to eat in the Asram;Yet he also acknowledged the Rules of the Ashram management and the need for such Rules-he also acknowledges that Muruganar is not on good terms with the Sarvadhikari and in view of this there is very little possibility of Muruganar being invited for Meals.
I am reminded of another story wherein a group of 'PandAras'(wandering Sadhus)were refused food by the Asram management-They were told 'This ashram is not a Choultry to feed 'PandAras' but offered hospitality only to Genuine Seekers of Knowledge.The PandAras went away.Soon it was found that Sri Bhagavan was missing during meal time.After a search they found him sitting on a stone slab about a Kilometre from the Ashram.The search party prayed to Sri Bhagavan to return to the ashramam.Sri Bhagavan simply told them-'The management had decided that the Ashram is not a place to receive pandAras;since I am a PandAra ,I have come away!'.They immediately realised the mistake and went in search of the pandAras who were refused food and sent away;they caught up with that group on the outskirts of the town and earnestly requested them to come and have their food in the ashram.It was only after this that sri Bhagavan returned to the Ashram.
This is Sri Bhagavan,an ocean of compassion and yet an embodiment of total detachment.This is his unique way of subtly letting others realise their mistakes,giving others the required space;he will never interfere in the affairs of others.
Forget whether Sri Bhagavan is a Jnani;he is a Great human being.A perfect Role model of how to live in this world.
Namaskar.
Friends,
Sri Dilip Kumar Roy,the great devotee and disciple of Sri Aurobindo has had Sri Bhagavan's Darshan several times.He was the one who elicited from Sri Bhagavan the statement-Bhakti Jnana mAtA-Devotion is the mother of Jnana.His Friend Yogi Sri Krishnaprem(Ronald Nixon)had also visited Sri Bhagavan,a very interesting Darshan-I had posted this incident earlier.
I came across this wonderful account of Sri DKR's life here:
http://savitriera.wordpress.com/anurag-banerjee/dilip-kumar-roy/
An excerpt from this article:
“Of all the disciples of Sri Aurobindo, Dilip Kumar Roy was one to whom the Guru gave the utmost indulgence, possibly because he was ever aware of this disciple’s utterly sensitive nature and lest he should leave the path in disgust or dismay, the Guru took him closest to his breast, owning him as a child and a very part of his being, through his wide heart and sympathies, much to the chagrin of his other disciples…The Guru was his touchstone in every matter in life and at every step, the disciple would refer all matters under the sun to him and him alone for verification and the Guru would readily acquiesce to each and every request that came from this importunate disciple…I am tempted to recount the story which I had the privilege of hearing from a great mystic soul, Sri Krishnaprem, who had, according to Sri Aurobindo, a “seeing intellect” (paśyantí buddhi). A bosom friend of Dilip Kumar’s,…Sri Krishnaprem was invited by the former to visit Pondicherry to have a darshan of Sri Aurobindo, and so he went there just a day or two prior to the day fixed for darshan and was staying with Dilip. On the previous night before the darshan, Dilip sent a note to Sri Aurobindo to inform him that next day, Sri Krishnaprem will also be accompanying him for Sri Aurobindo’s darshan and in the line of devotees assembled for the darshan, the man next to Dilip will be Sri Krishnaprem. “If possible, please give him a smile, when he approaches you, O Guru.” “Just think,” Sri Krishnaprem told me, “how he dares order or command the Guru to oblige him! And what the ever-obliging Guru could do? He could not refuse any request coming from Dilip! As soon as I stood before him, he gave me a very beautiful broad smile!”
I also warmly recommend Sri DKR's Autobiography-"Sri Aurobindo came to me".
Namaskar.
Ravi, I enjoyed the story of Ramana Maharshi and the PandAras....so the ashram only wanted to give hospitality to genuine seekers. Though the genuine were sent away they had to be recalled.
The Buddha:
Though my mother and father wished otherwise, they wept with tearful faces, I shaved off my hair and beard, put on the yellow robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness" Thus with a shaven head, wearing just a robe patched together with rags, a bowl under the arm, barefoot, the Buddha headed off.
The abandonment of his wife and son
may have troubled him? Still they would have been well cared for by his extended family.
Did he have an enormous sense of relief and freedom?
What did his struggle entail?
He underwent extreme self mortification. Could there be another way? He found rapture and pleasure born from seclusion.
He met with King Bimbisara. He said to the King 'I am secure in my renunciation of the world". 'My mind delights in the struggle to which I am committed"
The Buddha mastered then rejected the normative spiritual practices of the day. But exactly how and what he did, we do not know.
hj
Ravi,thank you very much for your detailed explanation.
Do you think it is wrong to say Bhagavan 'criticize' anyone?I find in the book 'letters from Sri Ramanasramam' the expression that Bhagavan 'condemn' something etc. Is the word 'condemn' not fit for Bhagavan?
In Japan there are also insensitive youngsters in bus.They sometimes put their bag on the empty seat!They occupy two seats per one.
But bus may not be so crowded than India.
«Without what can be intuited, there cannot be intuition, and without intuition, there cannot be what can be intuited...»
«...In actuality, knowledge of such truths cannot be communicated as other types of knowledge, but, after many discussions on these subjects, and after actual experience, suddenly, as light that starts from a sparkle, it is born from the soul and in the soul it finds its nourishment.»
«...What can be intuited that in itself contains that Who can intuit»
Quotes from Caldaic fragments and Platon
Kindly clear my following doubt:
Some where in the book Talks, Bhagavan Ramana mentions that Jnani also has Ego but it is like roasted seed or like burnt rope with only an appearance to which no vasanas can stick.
My understanding is as follows:
1) For Ignorant people like me, the center of living/operation is Ego-
mind.
-----
But for a Jnani it is SELF (beyond all gunas).
2) For Ignorant people, the Ego is contaminated by Rajas and Tamas (hence no Peace), Sattva is playing only a little role.
-----
When the Ego of a Jnani rises to interact with the world, it is like a roasted seed and characterised by Suddha Satva.
Please enlighten me whether my understanding is correct.
Regards, K.
Anonymous,
Thanks those wonderful words that you addrssed to Sharada Bhakta. They were really wonderful to read.
Anonymous(2?),
Thanks for your quote from quiet and silence. I feel that we hurry when we feel limited by time. As in, saying, "omg, I havent progressed" or "I will silence my mind in, say, 10 mins" or "I will meditate for this long today" etc. When we have "time limited" thoughts, I feel, we hurry. Bhagavan had quoted CHudala, saying that the king retired to forest in search of enlightenment but could not overcome the ego, as he put a timetable as such for the sadhana. I was wondering what was wrong with it. I feel this was the problem.
Man, non-realization unhappy tendencies are a real dead end. Guess, I'll stay in the bliss.
QURAN:
"If My servants ask thee about Me, lo, I am near" (Kor. 2.182); "We (God) are nearer to him
than his own neck-vein" (50.15); "And in the earth are signs to those of real faith, and in
yourselves. What! do ye not see?" (51.20-21).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Is the 'neck-vein' being referred here the 'amritanaadi' or 'paranaadi'??
Shiba,
"Do you think it is wrong to say Bhagavan 'criticize' anyone?I"
Yes,Sri Bhagavan has never ever criticized or condemned anyone-he may strongly disapprove,condemn their actions-like in 'The Letters from Ramanasramam' where Sri Bhagavan thunders at the people who went about destroying the leaves and branches of trees by way of plucking the fruits!
Sri Bhagavan LIVED the teaching that Self alone is.
There is no alternative to reading this Life to absorb the teaching.Just hanging on to the thoughts expressed in 'Talks' or elsewhere is like popping Vitamin pills while ignoring a balanced diet that includes cereals,fresh fruits etc(The Life lived by Sri Bhagavan).
On the other hand just dwelling on the Life of Great ones automatically nourishes the soul-no need to go after 'Special practices' or 'techniques'.The Teaching is 'embedded' in the Life and is more easily assimilable.This is Bhagavatham.
Namaskar.
Thank you very much for your reply, Ravi.
I understand you distinguish action with persons.
I simply think Bhagavan never criticize or condemn anyone with anger and hatred.Bhagavan sometimes need to thunder at someone to improve them.
Murali
re mindfulness
My most favoured form of mindfulness was/is ‘just sitting’, also known as shikantaza and choiceless awareness. I suspect it parallels RM’s staying with the I-ness or “just be quiet”. Some confirmation of this suspicion is given below.
*************************
Shikantaza -- resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no particular content; it is the highest or purest form of zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza)
Choiceless awareness -- is a type of meditation which arises most prominently from the Theravadan tradition (sometimes also called the Forest tradition) of Buddhism. It is characterized by being aware of whatever is present without choice or preference. This practice is intended to assist the practitioner in seeing the fundamental insights of Buddhism, which include, anatta, anicca and dukkha (no permanent self, no permanent mind and unsatisfactoriness of life). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choiceless_awareness)
*************************
I came across RM’s words below, whilst viewing this document, http://www.davidgodman.org/rteach/Thayumanavar.pdf
I thought you might be interested given your recent post on mindfulness.
Q: J. Krishnamurti teaches the method of effortless and choiceless awareness as distinct from that of deliberate concentration. Would Bhagavan be pleased to explain how best to practise meditation and what form the object of meditation should take?
RM: Effortless and choiceless awareness is our real nature. If we can attain it or be in that state, it is all right. But one cannot reach it without effort, the effort of deliberate meditation. All the age-long vasanas carry the mind outward and turn it to external objects. All such thoughts have to be given up and the mind turned inward. For that, effort is necessary for most people. Of course, every book says ‘Summa iru’, i.e., ‘Be quiet or still’.
He looked at me and said, ‘There is no such thing as right method; there is only right effort. Whatever technique you choose will work if you follow it intensely enough. You asked for my teachings and here they are: “Part-time sadhus don’t get enlightened.”’ ~ Dr Poy
http://www.davidgodman.org/interviews/al1.shtml
Anonymous/Friends,
“Part-time sadhus don’t get enlightened.”’ ~ Dr Poy"
Here is an excerpt from an article that I came across:
"Mother Krishnabai was eighty-four years old when I met her. She "left her physical body", (the expression preferred by Indians when they speak about the death of a sage), at the beginning of the year 1989. She had succeeded Swami Ramdas, the author of "The Vision of God" and "In Quest of God,"95 at the head of Anandashram in Kerala, in the year 1963. Swami Satchitananda, who was also a disciple of Ramdas, has succeeded her. She was known all over India as a model of devotion to the guru; and if for nothing else, I was keen to meet her. This did not mean that she was closed to any spiritual influence other than that of Ramdas. In her room, facing the photo of the latter, there was also the photo of Ramana Maharshi. This simple fact shows that at a high level, Bhakti and Jnana, love and devotion, duality and non-duality, which already were as the two sides of a single coin, actually are but one. I was able to have an interview with her. Here I have transcribed some of her answers:
QUESTION: "After more than half a century of devotion to your guru, who is Ramdas for you?
— I do not know about psychology, but I shall tell you what is essential, what for me signifies "Papa" (the name given to Ramdas). Papa is the eternal existence, that manifested itself in everything and is beyond everything. He was One in the joy, and in order to enjoy such happiness he became manifold. Normally we are identified with the consciousness of body and mind. But, after realizing ourselves to be like Papa and many other saints, we have our activities, we continue to play our role in life though having our being in the eternal existence. Papa said that for a long time the power of the Name has been a great force. But now more than ever, in this age of darkness, his Being can be realised simply by the recitation of the Name (the mantra). Papa, in his embodiment in time as Swami Ramdas, it may be said, has played different roles: chief of family, spiritual seeker, then renouncer wandering from one place to another, then renouncer received by families, then installed in an ashram and doing what was to be done in this ashram. Papa has taken on many different roles.
"I myself have gone through important periods of suffering and depression. Then I came to Papa and, in fact, I asked him for peace. Papa told me: "You cannot attain peace but by attaining the Supreme." He gave me the Name and I started reciting it. Since my mind wandered here and there, I asked Papa: "what to do?" "If the mind goes here and there, consider that it is Rama. All the thoughts thought by the mind are Rama. The mind cannot go outside Rama" he answered. He requested me to feel that, if Rama is all, Rama is equally beyond all. I had to sing the mantra with this mental attitude. He has also requested me that, whatever the work I was doing, whoever the people I was serving, to serve and to work for Rama himself. All the forms in the universe are manifestations of Rama. It is at the same time Bhakti, Karma and Jnana-Yoga. Bhakti is to recite the Name, Jnana is to contemplate Rama in all his forms and Karma is to serve everybody as Rama himself. By this practice (sadhana) Papa has taken me out of my depression. When the mantra is given at the time of initiation, its force comes from the universe. It is because of this that, whatever the mantra, whoever the saint, its efficacy is the same."
What mAtAji Krishnabai says here reveals the True Nature of Right Effort-that it has to be all encompassing the whole of Life-hence not 'part-time'.
If the 'intensity' is there the Effort will become all encompassing:Like Sri Ramakrishna used to say that a jaundiced man will see everything yellow.
Namaskar.
Friends,
Came across this article on a 'Swiss' swamiji who settled in Mussoorie,Himalayas:
Swami Jnanananda is originally from Zurich in Switzerland. He is sixty years old, more or less, and has lived for almost forty years in India. His mother, some months after his departure, began to get worried about the choices of her son and went to see C.G. Jung, his friend in Zurich. She submitted to him the case of her offspring. "It is a crisis of adolescence" said the old psychoanalyst, at that time at the summit of his glory. "Do not worry; he shall soon come back." Unfortunately for Jung, the said boy never came back and forty years later, from his remote Himalayas, he comments smiling: "Jung, he was very young."
Swami Jnanananda became interested in India and yoga through reading The Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda Paramhamsa. He came by road, via hitchhiking, when this was not done. Some people dropped him at the Indian border, on the Pakistan side. He passed the no man’s land and was stopped on the Indian side by two big Sikh soldiers of fierce appearance: "No entrance! Why do you want to enter India?—In order to practice yoga!" The Sikhs, a bit disconcerted, talked among themselves for a long minute. At the end one of them asked: "Do you have a guru?" Jnanananda, who at that time never doubted anything, answered: "Yes!" The countenance of the Sikhs cleared up: "Welcome!" and it was in this way, pedibus cum jambis (on foot) that our Swiss man entered India never yet to leave. On reaching Calcutta, he quickly met with some gurus of the Kriya-Yoga line (the technique of Yogananda), chose one at the end of a week and remained faithful to him until his death nine years later. Afterwards, he travelled for a long time in India, meeting all kinds of yogis and living on alms. His method was to wait standing before a house for some minutes without asking anything, silently. If somebody came out to give him something to eat, well and good; if nobody came well and good the same and he continued on his way.
He stays with great simplicity in a small hut on the slopes of the Himalayas, below Mussoorie, and often receives Indian or Western visitors, though he does not have an ashram.
Jnanananda speaks of his own experience; for about thirty years he has lived independently, outside all institutions and without fixed resources. He seems to manage well. One of his last pieces of advice was: "Be independent, walk your path by yourself."
You may also like to read this interesting interview with Swamiji:
http://www.newlives.freeola.net/printable/6.php
Swamiji's words are refreshingly simple and yet profound:
"I believe the time will come when only those who meditate will be able to sleep at night. The total dependency on money and the security we imagine it brings is total ignorance if we are afraid to be alone without material possessions. At the time of death even millionaires are alone — nothing outside can help us. We are alone with our fears if we are rooted to the body, and we carry those impressions with us into the Beyond. Those who have meditated will also be alone when they leave, but will be filled with peace and they will carry that peace with them. To forget the world makes man a pilgrim; to forget the next world makes him a saint; to forget the ego gives him self-realization; forgetfulness of the forgetful is perfection."
Namaskar.
... At the time of death even millionaires are alone — nothing outside can help us....
I mean that this is the point. We need to understand that we are not only alone at the time of death as a physical expericence in the future but that we are alone now too - there has never been any real security for us, no friends and nothing else. Therefore the sages said that we need to die while we are alive. = to live without any (false) support). As long as we cling to human society (and to our gurus) this false personal identity cannot die.
Friends,
I find that the Interviewer of the Swiss Swamiji is Malcolm Tillis.He has interviwed several westerners on their search for spiritual fulfillment in India.I immediately looked up if he has interviewed our David and sure enough he has!
Please visit http://www.newlives.freeola.net/interviews/35_david_godman.php
David was then serving in the Library of Sri Ramanasramam!
Namsakar.
Ramos/Friends,
"We need to understand that we are not only alone at the time of death as a physical expericence in the future but that we are alone now too - there has never been any real security for us, no friends and nothing else."
As long as one is bothered about security one has not embarked on the spiritual path.This sort of a teaching is alright to start with,to detach oneself from Gross attachments but one soon outgrows this.To feel Alone is different than to feel lonely,isolated,unconnected.One can be alone yet be connected,friendly ,warm and Loving.Only the attachment has to fall away.
This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
"Live in the world like a maidservant in a rich man's house. She performs all the household
duties, brings up her master's child, and speaks of him as 'my Hari'. But in her heart she
knows quite well that neither the house nor the child belongs to her. She performs all her
duties, but just the same her mind dwells on her native place. Likewise, do your worldly
duties but fix your mind on God. And know that house, family, and son do not belong to
you; they are God's. You are only His servant."
This is something that is immensely practical;not only practical but the very purpose of Living.
To renounce Life is easier than to embrace Life.To isolate oneself is easier(often convenient)than to stay connected without attachment.As one grows into spiritual living one finds oneself connected at a deeper level with the whole of Life.Holy Mother Sri sarada Devi so beautifully puts it-"nobody is a stranger in this world"
Namaskar.
The Paradox of Truth Teaching - V
*********************************
Extract from Mystics of Islam by
Reynold A Nicholson
---------------------------------
"The story admits of being told up to this point,
But what follows is hidden, and inexpressible in words.
If you should speak and try a hundred ways to express it,
'Tis useless; the mystery becomes no clearer,
You can ride on saddle and horse to the sea-coast,
But then you must use a horse of wood (i.e. a boat).
A horse of wood is useless on dry land,
It is the special vehicle of voyagers by sea.
Silence is this horse of wood,
Silence is the guide and support of men at sea."
{The Masnavi of Jalaluddin Rumi. Abridged translation by
E. H. Whinfield, p.326.}
Hi Clemens,
... At the time of death even millionaires are alone — nothing outside can help us....
I think it’s not us that is alone.It’s God that is alone. He is lonely, bored and sad. I can only pity him. He is lonely in that Casino. No one to play with. He throws a card, quickly wears another cloak, runs to the other side of the table, picks up the card, he himself has thrown, relishes his own cleverness, foolisness or whatever emotion and throws back another card. How sad and lonely must he be.
David,
I came across this story of an American, who is still alive today (mid 70s I believe) and claims to have met RM at age ten; not to mention having had an enlightenment experience at the same time.
The story is told by an apparent witness here: http://the-wanderling.com/rajamani.html
And further elaborated upon by the claimant here: http://the-wanderling.com/darshan.html
Warning:
if you do venture into these websites, they are difficult to navigate, convoluted and you may start to feel dizzy.
Which makes me wonder if the claimant simply has a vivid imagination.
Perhaps you can verify, David.
Regards.
Dada says of Neem Karoli Baba: People asked me so often, "Why does Babaji go on covering himself with a blanket?" Not only would he wear a blanket in the winter when it was cold, but also in the hottest summer months. I used to say that there were two blankets: one blanket covered his physical body, that we all knew. It was not indispensible; it could be thrown off. Some miracles were no doubt done through it: he would be taking something out from under it, sometimes the blanket would be very heavy, sometimes it would be light, and there was the smell of a baby in it. But there was another blanket that was inside. He was covering all his sadhana, all his siddhis, all his achievements, all his plans and programs. Why was he hiding all this? Perhaps it was for our protection, perhaps to save himself from crowds of followers. We cannot know.
When Babaji said, "You stay at home," I did not know what it meant. Now I understand. I am actually within those four walls most of the time. When he said to me, "Dada, what is family life for you? Become entirely my own," I said, "Hah, Baba, thik hai." [Yes, Baba, that's fine.] When he said, "Become entirely mine," I did not know what it meant and said yes. Now I see that my thoughts, my ideas, my vision, everything is concerned with him, nothing other than him.
HJ
Based on reading the lives of known Jnanis, Siddhas and Saints, it could be observed that in 99.99% instances SELF or That Universal Power had selected among the striving sadhakas who had made efforts to realize SELF/GOD.
Bhagavad Gita also says that one among large number of Striving sadhakas attain Self realization.
Very rare exceptions to the above unwritten law/rule were Jnanis such as Bhagavan Ramana, Jada Bharatha, Sage Suka, Dakshinamurthi Swami (19-20th century, born in Tiruvannamalai) and few others. The last three were jnanis right from their birth. They must have strived hard for Self realization in their past lives.
Hence, by statistics, it could be observed that effort is required to realize SELF, but the final decision to select one among many striving sadhakas rests with SELF. We cannot command that intelligent Universal Power, sadhana without bothering about the time span is all that we can do.
Also, there were greater instances in history where matured sadhakas attained Self realization in the presence of a living Jnani.
The effort for Self realization is all about making the mind one pointed away from all distracting worldly attractions through some sadhana. The maximum we could do as an ignorant human being is to hold on to a single thought with love for realization and all kinds of sadhanas is about achieving this only.
Human body or any other creatures' body which is a vehicle for the SELF is solely designed/evolved for survival in its environment, it is only the Ego (even of the Jnani's burnt by Jnana) along with the mind and the intellect actually uses the Body purposefully. Actually, SELF, the Mind Stuff and the Body together form a useful working unit.
Even if there had been no religion in this planet, still human beings would have made effort to the find the source of their existence by seeing this vast, wonderful, dreadful and complex Universe.
From birth, human beings are like disturbed water body, their search will end only when they attain Equilibrium (i.e. realize SELF). It seems, this is how the higher power wants us to be.
As long as our planet is dominated by human beings with wandering mind (i.e. not jnanis), society requires all kinds of rules to bring some order and discipline in its daily life. Even a primitive tribe have some sort of rules.
Thanks,
Sankar Ganesh.
There is so much I do to sabotage Self-Realization. It is hard to believe that if I ceased that, it wouldn't occur. Or if I practiced really as dilligently, consistently as I could. But I give into laziness, or I run with tendencies. Things I really could perhaps not do. But on the other hand, hard to imagine getting anywhere without Satsang, and that the Guru is not only essential, but maybe the most essential part, since it truly is the Guru that will remain, when the ego dissolves. I really love Muruganar poetry, because that's how I feel, that lost and dependent on the Guru. Truly, I feel good mainly in Satsang, and occasionally out of it. Though the 'out of it' if I'm feeling good, is probably still in it. Satsang and Guru being the real Self. I don't know, I have no idea how these things work, and they probably truly cannot be understood mentally, being on a level so transcendent and Omnipotent and beyond any mental understanding. Man, the ignorant tendencies I ran with in the past few weeks. It just gets more and more unbearable. I think that is Satsang with a jnani does, it feels so good, one feels their own true nature in Satsang, and it feels wonderful, infact for hours after, I feel brilliant. But then I sabotage it, in so may ways. Gosh, why do I do that? Why I do the same stupid things. I'm not that frustrated, but that is what it is like. I think the tendencies in light of the grace of association with a jnani, become way worse burdens, and the desire to give them up, so much stronger.
SG/Friends,
SG has rightly emphasised the ultimate goal(common parlance) and the need for striving and the need for rules governing society.
I wish to dwell on some of the usual misconceptions:
1.The Gita,when it speaks about how few strive and fewer still achieve-is only pointing to the preciousness of it all and the need for untiring efforts.It is not to say that a majority will fail.In short ,it is a qualitative statement and should not be viewed as a quantitative,empirical one.
2.Speaking about the nature of EFFORTS,it talks of undivided attention and Love-ananyAschintayan tOmAm-This is the key,that it does not talk about effort as something superhuman like scaling the Himalayas-but it talks of something that is intimate and within the reach of every human being.He who wants it definitely achieves it.
3.Elsewhere it also makes clear that everyone will reach me-I am the way and the destination(as Jesus also said).Sri Ramakrishna used to say-Everyone will get their meals;some eat breakfast,some their noonday meal and some their supper-meaning that the realization is a surety for all-only one may seemingly postpone that eventuality-but eat,everyone must!
This is something like the notes in a Fugue in Western Classical Music(Please look up a dictionary in case you are not familiar!)
4.No SELECTION is involved in all this-this is not like there are many aspirants to make it to a National team,say Indian Cricket Team and it is upto the selectors to select the Final Eleven(Through merit or Favours!) and the rest get shut out.The Selection,if at all is by the one who strives.He should choose what is always his,the innermost Self-the only possession(common parlance) that he or she has.
5. Sri Ramakrishna used to say that spiritual Knowledge is easier to learn than acquiring a Graduation degree!-one does not have to learn about all those chunks of information,facts and figures,calculations,Definitions,remember it all,etc.The Difficulty lies in not realizing the preciousness and indispensability,and setting the priority-God First,other things Next.The reversal of priority is at the root of all suffering and the reversal of this is the ending of it.
I have loosely covered some of these fundamental principles.Yet,this is worth some deliberation.
Namaskar.
People came to Sri Ramana with the standard seekers' question: 'What do I have to do to get enlightened?' One of his standard replies was the Tamil phrase 'Summa iru'. 'Summa' means 'quiet' or 'still' and 'iru' is the imperative of both the verb to be and the verb to stay. So, you can translate this as 'Be quiet,' Be still,' Stay quiet,' 'Remain still,' and so on. This was his primary advice.
However, he knew that most people couldn't naturally stay quiet. If such people asked for a method, a technique, he would often recommend a practice known as self-inquiry.
The true practice of Sri Ramana's teachings is remaining quiet, remaining in a state of inner mental quiescence that allows the power of Sri Ramana to seep into your heart and transform you. This can be summarized in one of Sri Ramana's classic comments: 'Just keep quiet. Bhagavan will do the rest.'
Don't try to meditate on the Self, on God. Just abide silently at the source of the mind and you will experience that you are God, that you are the Self.'
Source: http://www.davidgodman.org/interviews/al1.shtml
**********************
This is good news David.
This had been my practice for many years, pre RM. I was very fond of just sitting in silence. Like dirty water left to stand in a glass, my mind would settle and become still, crystal clear. Nothing special, it was just gentle, simple, peaceful.
Now that I have met RM, via your writings predominantly, I am pleased to read the similarities between RM’s teachings and my instinct.
However, whilst I do not find it difficult to settle mind when in favourable conditions, doing so constantly, when many demands are upon me, is not so easy.
But for the last 4 years I have been away from society by virtue of not being in paid employment. Also I have few true friends and am estranged from family. Hence, I don’t have the distractions that typically take the attention of most. Consequently, my attention isn’t constantly being pulled outward toward countless tasks.
I understand that the person strongly established inward, remains inward no matter the occasion. However, I believe extended periods with few demands can greatly aid the establishment of inwardness. So that eventually, inwardness follows one wherever they go.
It is also interesting to note that many whom we consider teachers in this field tend to lead a simplified life and encourage it, presumably for the purpose of cultivating inwardness, amongst other things.
Regardless, given my nature is generally solitary, I hope my whole life continues on the fringe of society, and allowing me the opportunity to establish myself firmly within.
Thank you for your research and writing David. It is a treasure and I feel like I have direct access to Ramana Maharishi’s original words and teachings via your work.
Regards
P.
Given Ramana Maharishi called his method “self-enquiry” which involved mental questions such as “who am I?”, initially I believed his method was akin to Rinzai Zen.
Rinzai Zen uses koans, riddles, questions, that are unanswerable by the intellect, in an attempt to “awaken”.
“Who am I?” is a koan. The mind can’t answer this question, but when it gets a hold of this koan it tries to figure out the answer.
Through the process of effort and exhaustion using a koan, the conceptual mind can ‘break’ or ‘drop away’, revealing ones true nature, or Self in Ramana’s parlance.
I think this a very valid approach to the question “who am I?” or similar such questions, eg., “whose thought is this?”
* * * * *
But this isn’t how Ramana intended self-enquiry to be used did he!?
He wasn’t interested in cracking “who am I?” as a koan. Perhaps I misunderstand, but he seems to have been more interested in using such questions to shift attention back to the silence within.
Other teachers, such as Nisaragadatta Maharaj and Robert Adams, (and I name them because both are associated with Ramana Maharishi), seemed to use the question more koan style.
I suspect many today use Ramana Maharishi’s “who am I?” in a koan type fashion. Which is a valid approach in-and-of-itself, but I’m not so sure that’s how Ramana intended it to be used.
Hence, I can see 3 immediate confusions that arise out of Ramana Maharishi’s self-enquiry method:
1] “who am I?” is a mantra – rudimentary reading of the teachings reveals this is not the case
2] “who am I?” is a koan – its easy to believe this is what Ramana intended, given his words detailing the ‘I’ as a construction, a fabrication, an illusion
3] “who am I?” is merely a question designed to shift attention back to the silence within
It probably doesn’t matter too much in the end. Given 2] and 3] are both valid in my mind (……..perhaps only 3] for the hardcore Ramana devotee!!). And importantly, EFFORT overrides method.
The goal is always the same - to dive into the inner room being free of the mental images and craving of the worldly "I". Let the methods be different as long as the disciple understands the problem and is earnest enough to conquer this inner room and brave enough to give up this worldly "I".
Anonymous,
Regarding, the 3 Qs you have put on "Who Am I?", I thought this might help:
Maharshi newsletter from Arunachala Ashrama:
Sept-Oct 2001 edition
Sri Desai: During the enquiry, should I repeat mentally the question “Who am I (Koham)?” etc., just like the Japa of a mantra again and again, with feeling and understanding of the same...?
Sri Maharshi: Japa of Koham is not correct. Put the question once only and then concentrate on finding the source of the ego, and preventing recurrence of thoughts.
Extract from a free book 'The Persian Mystics' by Hadland Davis
********************************
Jalaluddin Rumi about the illusion/glory of God/Fear
*******************************
I cry, and my cries sound sweet in His ear ;
He requires from the two worlds cries and groans.
How shall I not wail under His chastening
hand?
How shall I not be in the number of those bewitched
by Him ?
How shall I be other than night without His
day?
Without the vision 'of His face that illumes the
day?
His bitters are very sweets to my soul,
I am enamoured of my own grief and pain,
For it makes me well-pleasing to my peerless
King.
I use the dust of my grief as salve for my eyes,
That my eyes, like seas, may team with pearls.
http://cephalopodmollusks.blogspot.com/
The last two posts on my blog, are dialogues I had with Nome, as embedded Youtube videos. The more recent one, is audio with a panorama I created of the doorway to the Temple. The previous one, is me and the previous person who had a short dialogue. That is actually a video. But for Copyright issues, i would share some of the audio creations with background music to these dialogues. Both of them, are unlisted, for selective sharing.
Anonymous,
"What I meant is bring out the Kitchen worker Ramana, Compassionate Ramana, Forgiving Ramana and push the Advaita Ramana,Self-Enquiry Ramana under the mattress for now."
I do not see any conflict between the various aspects of Sri Bhagavan.
Coming to your thoughts on the social aspects-I do understand the superficial view that Varna Ashrama Dharma is the cause of all banality,etc.Yet a little thought will reveal how and Why the Brahmin became so influential despite being wedded to a life of Renunciation.
Vivekananda(since you seem to admit that we require Vivekanandas today!) beautifully brings out this Truth in his inspirational Talk-My Master:
" I am going to present before you a life of one man who has put in motion such a wave in India. But before going into the life of this man, I will try to present before you the secret of India, what India means. If those whose eyes have been blinded by the glamour of material things, whose whole dedication of life is to eating and drinking and enjoying, whose ideal of possession is lands and gold, whose ideal of pleasure is that of the senses, whose God is money, and whose goal is a life of ease and comfort in this world and death after that, whose minds never look forward, and who rarely think of anything higher than the sense-objects in the midst of which they live--if such as these go to India, what do they see? Poverty, squalor, superstition, darkness, hideousness everywhere. Why? Because in their minds enlightenment means dress, education, social politeness. Whereas occidental nations have used every effort to improve their material possession, India has done differently. There live the only men in the world who, in the whole history of humanity, never went beyond their frontiers to conquer anyone, who never coveted that which belonged to anyone else, whose only fault was that their lands were so fertile, and they accumulated wealth by the hard labor of their hands, and so tempted other nations to come and despoil them. They are contended to be despoiled, and to be called barbarians; and in return they want to send to this world visions of the Supreme, to lay bare for the world the secrets of human nature, to rend the veil that conceals the real man, because they know the dream, because they know that behind this materialism lives the real, divine nature of man which no sin can tarnish, no crime can spoil, no lust can taint, which fire cannot burn, nor water wet, which heat cannot dry nor death kill. And to them this true nature of man is as real as is any material object to the senses of an Occidental."
(You talk about the Filth,squalor,etc-Vivekananda has taken into account all This)
continued....
Anonymous,
Vivekananda ...Continued...
" It was while reforms of various kinds were being inaugurated in India that a child was born of poor Brahmin parents on the eighteenth of February, 1836, in one of the remote villages of Bengal. The father and mother were very orthodox people. The life of a really orthodox Brahmin is one of continuous renunciation. Very few things can he do; and over and beyond them the orthodox Brahmin must not occupy himself with any secular business. At the same time he must not receive gifts from everybody. You may imagine how rigorous that life becomes. You have heard of the Brahmins and their priestcraft many times, but very few of you have ever stopped to ask what makes this wonderful band of men the rules of their fellows. They are the poorest of all the classes in the country; and the secret of their power lies in their renunciation. They never covet wealth. Theirs is the poorest priesthood in the world, and therefore the most powerful. Even in this poverty, a Brahmin's wife will never allow a poor man to pass through the village without giving him something to eat. That is considered the highest duty of the mother in India; and because she is the mother it is her duty to be served last; she must see that everyone is served before her turn comes. That is why the mother is regarded as God in India. This particular woman, the mother of our subject, was the very type of a Hindu mother. The higher the caste, the greater the restrictions. The lowest caste people can eat and drink anything they like. But as men rise in the social scale, more and more restrictions come; and when they reach the highest caste, the Brahmin, the hereditary priesthood of India, their lives, as I have said, are very much circumscribed. Compared to Western manners, their lives are of continuous asceticism."
It is on account of this Austere Nature that the Brahmins came to be respected by the Kings (Kshatriyas)and all other people.
This is a vast subject and I can take up a position even more extreme than what you have taken and go about refuting it!I do not have the inclination just now.I can only point out some excellent articles on the Glory of the Varna Ashrama Dharma as the Very foundation of Sanathana Dharma that completely covers the psycho social aspects.These talks by the Sage of Kanchi are scattered among the 8 Volumes of Deivathin Kural.
Namaskar.
Anonymous,
Here is an excerpt from The talk of The Sage of Kanchi:
"In reality those who protected and nurtured Dharma are the Brahmins who for any aberration or mistake by others, took a bath and re-started the ritual and if need be put themselves under restrictions of fasting for any procedural error that might have been purely accidental.
80. The Brahmin was required to know all the 18 Vidya Sthaanaa-s. He had to know all that was required for the world’s normal functioning. He had to know the fine-art of music, called the Gandarva Vedam. He had to know the Krishi Saastram of agriculture. It is a Samhitai under Jyotisham, as agriculture even to day is dependent on periodic rains as input, which is part of Jyotisham! He should know Vaastu Saastra, for construction of houses and buildings. He was required to teach those other castes on all the subtle points, but not supposed to make it his own profession. He should do Veda Adhyayanam and Adhyaapakam. He is not to make too much money. He is not to take any loan!
81. Viswamitra knew Dhanur Vedam. When he was doing Yagna, two Rakshasaas Subhahu and Maricha, started creating problems in the conduct of the Yagna. He did not say, “Since I know Dhanur Veda, let me sort them out myself”. He requested Dasaratha for the helping hands of Sri Rama and Sri Lakshmana. He brought them on the scene to fight the demons. Enroute he taught them the Astra-Sastra Vidya-s required. Though Viswamitra was a Kshatriya by birth, while practicing as a Brahmin, he did not suddenly change roles!
82. So, a Brahmin has to carefully nurture Veda Adhyayanam and Adhyaapakam. But he should know other Vidya-s too. When asked as to if he knows fencing with the sword, he should be able to say, “Yes”. When asked as to if he knows medicine, he should be able see the patient and do diagnosis and prognosis! Thus he should be able to teach the village Vaidya, some of the intricate points of his profession! So should he be an Expert in Painting, Master in Carpentry and Maestro in Music! Having made the worker in that field his Sishya, having taught him the finer nuances of his job, he should accept whatever the Guru Dakshina, without cribbing and be satisfied!"
You may read the complete article here(19th sep 2008):
http://advaitham.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html
Namaskar.
Anonymous,
In this talk,the Sage of Kanchi makes a very interesting observation-the relationship between profession that a modern individual finds himself viz a viz his temperament!He then compares this with the Varna Asrama Dharma times.
" A very small percentage of people find their way into a job or profession suited for their individual aptitudes and capabilities. A man with dispassion may find a job requiring high flown rhetoric! An imaginative person capable of going through enormous data base and arrive at a workable plan, may find that he is in a job of brainless physical iteration day in and day out! A person keen on active out door adventure, may well find himself responsible for maintenance of archives of old records! People interested in fine arts such as music and poetry, may be guarding the national border from a forward area bunker! Many of them may not even know or be aware that they are doing the wrong job and what is their preference! Problem is one of the vast gulf between the qualitative requirements for the job and correct/incorrect identification of potential in the selection process!
30. Do not ask me as to how do I know all this? Though I am sitting here in the Mutt, all sorts of people come to me with their prayers and wishes. From this, the most pertinent observation I make is that, no body with the right qualifications is in the job suitable for him!"
Please read the post DEIVATHIN KURAL # 149 (of Vol 2) Dated 08 Sept 2008 here:
http://advaitham.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html
Namaskar.
Ravi, That struck a cord 'Very few people get into a profession they are suited for'. Yes there's a large mob of malcontents out there doing work they dislike or are thoroughly bored with!
If talking to family, friends or you're sitting in a mut; discontented mutterings surface time and time again.
hj
Bhagawan was supremely smart.May be he very well knew that if you want to be something or everything to somebody you cannot be something to everybody much less everything to everybody.
Friends,
It occurs to me that we sometimes make a heavy weather of things that are common sense-I am referring to the skepticism these days that most have when it comes to any form of 'service',that it is only 'self promotion'!What if it be so,as long as it benefits the recipient,as long as it makes a difference to them.
Why this shrinking from any form of such activity as if by avoiding it,one is better off!
All living is an interchange and no one is an isolated island,that he or she can totally insulate himself from such activities.Why this insistence that all that should necessarily be "karma Yoga" -Why should it be?Let it be even a selfish one,as long as the other person derives some benefit from it.Such activities are also to be welcomed and appreciated.
Does it require 'timeoff' from any activity to pursue 'self enquiry' or any other path?
This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
"I tell you the truth: there is nothing wrong in your being in the world. But you must direct your mind toward God; otherwise you will not succeed. Do your duty with one hand and with the other hold to God. After the duty is over, you will hold to God with both hands."
In other words,there must be this constant undercurrent that must be sustained throughout-'the holding of God with one hand' amidst activities.Unless this is done,there is no possibility of 'holding onto god with both hands'-that is, giving undivided attention to god.
Namaskar.
The dog's curly tail, a nice tale by Swami Vivekananda to explain the state of our World.
Thanks,
Sankar Ganesh.
Folks thanks for responses. I feel a lot (Not all) of misunderstanding is from not paying attention to the words that I have used and not getting the context.I am also not good at explaining things as I skip a lot of the detail.You can call me Mr.Z for this discussion.
I have very well read and digested a lot that is out there about Ramana. Now what remains is the life of Ramana.If we analyse the various aspects that he lived say we come up with a list of facets (NAMES) like compassionate, loving, hard working, intelligent and so on we all accept that he lived many facets to the highest purity. All the saints that I mentioned and many more unknown certainly lived these facets. Vivekananda was certainly a Jnana yogi, a Karma yogi, a Bhakta, a great sishya, a great intellectual and what not. In the context of my last post I meant the Karma Yogi Vivekananda is the need of the hour.
The question in my last post was ‘the focus’ or ‘the highlight’ for ‘this age’(time) and ‘place’(India or similar) not what a saint was or was not, much less comparision of saints.Out of the many facets of Ramana what is it that is relevant and practical for today’s India. I also mentioned in every age there is a Saint with a focus on specific facets relevant to that age and place. Ramana on some well reported incidents did not want to play the social and cultural card.
Bhagawan was questioned on the sate of women by a very famous female freedom fighter to which Bhagawan tried to say realize who you are( the brahmastra).So here he is very clearly saying that the facet that he came to stress is Self Realization. Similarily with the incident in the dining hall of how Atma was always divided into pure and impure. When Gandhi was invited to visit Bhagawan he threw a condition if only the chandalas were let into the temple of Arunachala.There was no response from Bhagawan.He could have invited the chandalas to the temple in the Ashram instead. He clearly refused to be drawn into a public role of social change. In all the cases I am not juding Bhagawan but actually doing the opposite i.e pointing out his enormous wisdom, intellect and wit. May be he very well knew that if you want to be something or everything to somebody you cannot be something to everybody much less everything to everybody. I was the one who posted this.
The second question was the dynamics of a relation between the complex problems of India and it’s Vedic system, varna in particular.I did not raise varna but was answering to a post raised by others. The problems I am talking about are not of an idealistic society but bare bone survivalist like traffic, pollution, epidemics, security of your hard earned property, to a lot a decent meal a day, a god to cry to, and such. My conclusion was that the system was out of date quite long ago(even by the time of Budha) and stupor is what is left today. Every system however good has an expiry date.That is why Vivekananda addressed the Indians that you will go straight to heaven from the football fields and advised Brahmins to eat fish(Rajasic food). Generally speaking India is a lot of Tamas and Sattva with insufficient Rajas. Somewhere along, the system degenerated to insufficient Rajas. Vivekananda was trying to say you need Rajas to take you from Tamas to Sattva and Saradamma concurs.
I was also trying to say Advaita/Self-enquiry is for a ripe fruit about to drop off(Saradamma’s quote). We need some yoga, some jump start to propel the masses into action out of the stupor and this is where the ideals and life of Vivekananda, Vidyasagar, Gandhi and many more can come in.Even today I doubt if barely 10% of the population can mention the names of Vedas. More than 95% of the population historically was denied any access to the books; forget any other art, until the British arrived. No wonder Gandhi was is no hurry to drive out the colonists. He felt we need to deserve the freedom and sixty years later we may have lot more creature comforts but are only going down.
-contd-
-Z
-cont-
The goal of such a minimalist Samaja is not to help others but to help ourselves to lead at least a minimalist decent life with self respect. I personally feel the minimalist systems left in India are very fast eroding and might soon degenerate into the ghettos of the barbarian colonies of some countries. Corruption in every walk of life was always part of rustic India. Only today it is in billions of dollars. According to a famous historian Romila Thapar, significant population of India was always(historically) very poor and don’t believe the bogus, well paid eulogies of the poets. We always had the worst kind of discrimination. The poor man was not only hungry for millenniums but was not even allowed to have a God to cry to. He was born as a chandala and cow piss was used to purify his touch. No other civilization in the world did witness such disrespect. Gandhi too was ostracized by his community when he returned back from Oxford because he was impurified by going and living with Yavanas(white mlechchas).So was Dyaneshwar.In the end all the rites and paraphernalia became a question of livelihood. So anybody who threatened their livelihood became a mlechcha.I want to stress that all this is ‘Generally speaking’. I also want to stress that the original intentions were always pure but the system outlived it’s age.Vedic ideals were never meant for the Kali age.It is just that the days of Sanaka Sanaadulu were loooong over even by Budha’s day otherwise he would not have preached in Paali, the poor man’s dialect. The question I am throwing is how come our Veda and Dharma could not prevent this.What Ravi desribed are the ideals.But what’s the story on the ground. What percentage will fit into those ideals?
Cultural degeneration: I do not want to go into detail but will highlight a few and you try to step into their shoes. I know a few grannies in my village who became widows before puberty and as widows they never got any share of the ancestral property and their lives from then on was living as slaves with their relatives. In some states it was even worse with some having to jump into the pyres of their husbands or shave off and go to Vrinadavan. A regular and familiar story of women especially in poor families having to open their doors at midnight to their drunk husbands and get beaten up as well. Countless unhappy marriages putting up a happy face because divorce is a taboo. On the other hand every marital problem is faked as a dowry harassment case because of societal taboos. Far too many to list. Here too stupor and taboo made us suffer silently for millenniums.
The average Indian was somehow supposed to put up a proud face on a hungry stomach carrying the millstone of maala(impurity) fated on him and the Brahmin the millstone of the Vedanta ideals. Both suffered . When we cannot blame any one in particular it is the system (all) that has become outdated.Vivekanada said a hungry stomach cannot understand spirituality and Bhagawan tried to say that the facet that I am here to *stress* is ‘suicide is the mother of all solutions’; I mean suicide of the ego. He was *primarily*(not Only) here for the ripe souls and as an inspiration to the rest and rightly so as only one in a million will have the kind of deep dispassion to even deny Heaven and Goloka and go for complete annihilation. I am NOT saying he is not other facets. On a lighter note if God(Realisation) is the goal of God there never would have been creation.
Significant part of the mind is social and cultural conditioning. If you want to kill the mind, at some point you have to address these issues. Phrases like ‘All is well’; ‘the world cannot be any better’,’the world can take care of itself’ are for the very ripe seekers. Ramana lived many facets.For a given individual(that includes a society) in a specific age it is important to take some facets to be practised, some to contemplate, some for inspiration and some as ideals.
-Z
Ravi,
Thanks for digging out the link about interviews by Tillis:
http://www.newlives.freeola.net/introduction.htm
Some of them are very interesting.
May I recommend an excellent book about the travels of Swami Ramdas on Indian trains.It is about surrender.Light reading.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7810533/In-Quest-of-God-by-Swami-Ramdas
-Z
Mr Z, I read your comments with interest. I think you'll have to digest that Ramana was not a reformer. What happened to Ramana was a mystery. It was not a path that he cultivated. It happened!His courage was the catalyst for the breakthrough. His effulgence shone through for all to see and many shed tears in his presence or were transformed by him. Kunju Swami relates that Ramana was quite shaky physically. Ramana explained it as If you put a large elephant in a small hut....
meaning this giant spirit in this fragile body. Ramana said many times that all was preordained.
Nisargadatta also states you cannot push life about.
The ego thinks it can change things. We think we're in charge but are we?
In the past Indians were painted as passive which had a negative connotation but alot of Indian people I have met have a well developed abacus mind. So which version is true?
To understand the nature of existence, somewhere along this journey called life we'll have to keep quiet.
hj
Different traditions (Ramana Maharishi and Dogen) but the same outcome.
To study the Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things of the universe. To be enlightened by all things of the universe is to cast off the body and mind of the self as well as those of others. Even the traces of enlightenment are wiped out, and life with traceless enlightenment goes on forever and ever.
Dogen
Certainly even Ramana said that self-enquiry is not for everyone, that it is for those who are qualified, but that "being qualified" meant nothing more than having an interest in it.
The more important issue is in addressing the question, "How do I become qualified for self-enquiry?" And this is where Bhagavan makes it clear that the best answer is "by practicing self-enquiry". But this he did not mean that some sort of preparation was not helpful and even necessary for self-enquiry to bring one to self-realization. He was simply asserting that the best way to do that, was to practice self-enquiry even from a beginner's perspective.
Not every beginner is going to advance quickly and become self-realized. Very few do. But Bhagavan's teaching still claims that the fastest way to grow and mature, even as a beginner, is to practice self-enquiry.
I think it is clear that the practice of self-enquiry helps the beginner "open the knots" that obstruct consciousness, and ends up duplicating the results of all the traditional yogas, even karma yoga, without all the potential distractions from the core process that makes them effective. So there is no particular conflict between a beginner practicing self-enquiry and one practicing karma yoga. Self-enquiry will lead to right, selfless action without necessarily having to take on any particular discipline of karma yoga. It may even lead one to various forms of social and political activity in one's area, and in some cases even on a larger scale, depending on one's prarabda. But the effect on oneself and the world is magnified simply by the practice of self-enquiry, even without any particlar emphasis on the traditional yogas, and the necessary maturity and preparation and the fulfillment of all the traditional requirements is brought about in the natural course of practicing self-enquiry.
So it's not as if, from Bhagavan's point of view, there is some sort of "either/or" conflict. That one should either practice self-enquiry or practice seva and karma yoga. Practicing self-enquiry will lead to whatever right action one needs to perform for one's own sake and for the sake of the world, since neither are actually separate from one another, but the same living consciousness.
So someone genuinely practicing self-enquiry is also practicing karma yoga, and vice-versa. There is no genuine karma yoga without the conscious inspection and penetration of the ego-illusion. So the world needs both, and the genuine practice of either one includes the other by its very nature. It is similar to the false dichotomy created by seeing bhakti yoga and jnana yoga as to separate and opposing paths, when in reality they are the same path viewed from different angles.
The notion that Jnana yoga and Karma yoga are in conflict is as false as the common belief that Jnana yoga and Bhakti yoga are in conflict. In reality, each is the same path viewed from a different angle. Ramana is clear that there is not Jnana without Bhakti, and I think the same can be said about Karma yoga as well. There is no Jnana without right action, and no right action without Jnana.
Ramana taught self-enquiry not only to the most mature devotees on the verge of realization, but even to the most raw beginners. Why? Because he felt that the best way to grow and mature, even for the beginner, was to practice self-enquiry. It's not as if he expected beginners to suddenly become full-fledged jnanis, but he did see it as the best and fastest way to become more mature.
The practice of self-enquiry helps open the knots in consciousness even from the beginning, by focusing on the knot of self, and thus the yoga of self-enquiry affects everything we do, including activity in the world, which is a form of suffering only because we act from the ego-knot rather than from the Self. So self-enquiry helps open the ego-knot and this enables us to act rightly and bring about a sattvic life in the world, not only for ourselves but for everyone.
This is what the world needs - action that springs from an open heart. That is what true karma yoga is about in any case, so I don't see how one can reject Ramana's path of self-enquiry in favor of karma yoga. The two go hand in hand in reality, and leaving one out negates the power of the other. The world needs both, because they are in reality the same opening viewed from different angles.
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