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I omitted to mention earlier that a new feature has been added to the 'Recent Comments' box. Near the top there is an icon of two people. If you click on it, you will see a list of the users who have made the last twenty-five comments. If you then tick the white box to the left of the user's name, the recent comments of that particular user will be featured. You can then open them all with the 'expand all' option, or open them one by one by clicking on the plus sign.
If you want to do a search for older comments, click on the 'next' box and comments 26-50 will display. Click again and 51-75 will appear. And so on. The same search facility is available inside each twenty-five comment block.
5,000 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 2601 – 2800 of 5000 Newer› Newest»R.Subramanian,
"We are all girl children and we are yet to attain maturity to experience these things"
The why discuss 'pleasure' of sex?Why pretend or speculate what it is like and what it is not like.Why not focus on 'growing up' and come to it in a natural way?
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
""Atma Vichara alone can confer liberation."
What is 'Atma'?What is 'Vichara'?What is liberation?
Are we living in a dream world or fantasizing on these things?
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi, yes, setting the thief to catch the thief. like removing one thorn with another thorn. Both are redundant in the end!
One stakes claim without claiming anything!
there is nothing really, are we simply making something out of nothing?
The entire journey seems so foolish or stupid in a way! Why would the light want to see itself?
Where from the ignorance has arised? where from the foolishness has originated?
It is simply fiction!
Esoterically, they would say, it is the play of Shakti and Siva.
Why do I have to interfere in their love ;-D
Nagaraj
Sri Bhagavan and Tayumanavar:
In Talks, Sri Bhagavan refers to Tayumanavar, the saint-poet in 9 conversations, a few times only the name is mentioned and on other times, He gives some descriptions of the saint poet's verses.
Talk No. 122:
Devotee: What is Atman (Self), anatman (non-Self) and paramatman (Supreme Self)?
Maharshi: Atman is Jivatman (the individual self) and the rest are
plain. The Self is ever present (nitya siddha). Each one wants to know the Self. What kind of help does one require to know the oneself? People want to see the Self as something new. But it is eternal and remains the same all along. They desire to know it as blazing light etc., How can it be so? It is not light, nor darkness (na tejo, na tamah). It is only as it is. It cannot be defined. The best definition is 'I am that I AM.'... They have no foundation in fact. It is only Being, but different from the real and unreal.
It is Knowledge, but different from knowledge and ignorance. How can it be defined? It is simply Being.
Again Sri Bhagavan said that in the whole Tayumanavar literature, He preferred one stanza which says, "Ego disappearing another "I-I" spontaneously manifest in full glory," etc. Again He cites Skandar Anubhuti: "Not real, nor unreal, not darkness nor light, it is."
....Sri Bhagavn pointed out a stanza in Tayumanavar which condemns all siddhis. Further He said that Tayumanavar mentions mouna (silence) in numerous places but defines it in only one verse. Mouna is said to be that state which spontaneously manifests after annihilation of the ego. That state is beyond light and darkness, but still it is called light since no other proper word could be found for it.
Talks No. 317:
....
.....
Devotee: I have surrendered heart and soul. I am the best judge of my heart, Still I do not feel the Grace.
Maharshi: If you had surrendered, the questions would not arise.
Devotee: I have surrendered. Still the questions arise.
Maharshi: Grace is constant. Your judgement is the variable. Where else should the fault lie?
Devotee: I must be enabled to surrender myself.
Maharshi: Tayumanavar has said:
"Glory to Thee for enabling me to discuss so much and follow Thy words so far!"
continued....
Sri Bhagavan and Tayumanavar:
Talks No. 398:
.....
.....
Devotee: Does not the Guru take a concrete form?
Maharshi: What is meant by concrete? Because you identify your being with your body, you raise this question. Find out if you are the body. The Gita says: Param bhavam ajanantah (B.G. IX - 2) -- that those who cannot understand the transcendental nature of Sri Krishna are fools, deluded by ignorance.
The Master appears to dispel that ignorance. As Tayumanavar puts it, he appears as a man to dispel the ignorance of a man, just as a deer is used as a decoy to capture the wild deer. He has to appear with a body in order to eradicate our ignorant 'I am the body' idea.
Talks No. 593:
Sri Bhagavan mentioned another interesting reminiscence. "When I was a boy I had seen the fishermen divert water from its main course
and keep a pot through with tobacco stems. Strangely enough the larger fishes always took the new way and fell into the pot. The fishermen who were simply sitting quiet used to take the fish out from the pot and throw them into the baskets. I thought at the time it was a strange. Later, when I was staying here I heard some men recite a piece from Tayumanavar which mentioned the same trick of the fishermen."
Talks No. 601:
......
......
Devotee: When I attempt to cease from activity the very attempt is action. So activity seems to be inevitable.
Maharshi: True. Tayumanavar has also alluded to it. A doctor advised a patient to take the prescribed medicine with only one condition. That condition is not to think of a monkey when he takes the medicine. Can the patient ever take the medicine? Will he not think of the monkey whenever he tries not to do so? So also, when people try to give up thoughts their object is frustrated by their very attempt.
****
Dear Ravi,
This is overkilling the simile. Thoughts will go on and on to find some variations. If stone is inanimate, then Siva Linga is also inanimate and Arunachala is also inanimate. There is an element of prana pradhishta by ancients rishis and priests, to make the stones and
Arunachala animate. At least Annamalai was prayed to by Brahma and Vishnu, which became the most profound pranapradishta.
*****
Dear Ravi,
Atma is that which is eternal and is keeping you alive even in your deep sleep. It is with us during waking state, dream state and deep sleep state. It is Sat. If Sat is not there, a man is called 'setthu poyittan'.
Vichara is only investigating the anatma, all that dust, dirt and smoke that prevents us 'seeing' the light, and removing it. Dust, dirt and smoke are mind, buddhi and ahankaram.
****
Ravi and friends, I don't know all that much about Aurobindo. He seems much more 'wordy' then Ramana.
Spiritual evolution obeys the logic of a successive unfolding was not a core teaching of Ramana's.
Didn't Aurobindo make an explicit statement that there is spiritual evolution?
Sri Bhagavan and Tayumanavar:
Talks No. 646:
........
Gandhiji has said (about his journey to Rajkot): The fact is, it takes no effort to stop thinking. The thoughts do not come. Indeed there is no vacuum - but I mean to say that there is no thought about the mission.
Sri Bhagavan remarked how true the words were and emphasized each statement in the extract (of Harijan issue dated 11th March 1939). Then He cited Tayumanavar in support of the state which is free from thoughts:
"Although I had often heard that all the Srutis declare the state of
stillness to be one of Bliss, all Bliss, -- yet I continued to be ignorant. Again I did not follow the advice of my Lord. I wandered in the forest of illusion. Alas! it was my fate."
"Bliss will reveal itself if one is still. When then is this illusory yoga practice? Can it (i.e Bliss) be revealed by directing the intellect in a particular way? Do not say so, you who are given to the practice and are therefore an innocent babe."
"The eternal Being is that state where you have disappeared. Are you not in it too? You, who cannot speak of it, do not be perplexed. Although you do not manifest, yet you are not lost. For you are eternal and also still. Do not be in pain. Here is Bliss - come on!"
concluded.
R.Subramanian,
" If Sat is not there, a man is called 'setthu poyittan'"
Friend,it is Life and not Atma that we know.Atma is a 'conception' as of now.Does anyone say that He does not eat while eating or does not sleep while sleeping,or does not walk while walking and does not think while thinking?
Look at it straight and answer to yourself.You do not have to respond here.
This is all that our friend 'Devil' is pointing out and the 'Advocate' not appointed by him is also saying!
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
Ravi/Nagaraj/Subramanian:
the quest is a paradox, in the sense that though the self may not be an 'object' 'attainable' through effort, yet one has to put whatever efforts what one thinks/feels as necessary (what else can one do?); likewise, though there may never have been a journey to be undertaken from a 'here' to a 'there', yet one has to make the journey as if there were one...but there is a crucial difference though - if the one who has 'made' the journey talks of the absence of any journey, then that could be a spontaneous fruit of realisation, but when it's said by one who hasn't even commenced the journey, then it might be an engineered effect of hypocrisy...
coming to aruNAchala, the only reason i'm willing to concede that it isn't what it appears to be is because of bhagavAn, otherwise to my eyes all i see is stone! :-) to those who differ, i'd request them to first of all get an audience with this aruNAchala and then come & say that i'm wrong and i will gladly listen :-) i'm reminded of a wonderful saying of svAmi brahmAnanda (sri rAkhAl): "Spiritual life begins after nirvikalpa samAdhi"!
heyjude,
" I don't know all that much about Aurobindo. He seems much more 'wordy' then Ramana.
Spiritual evolution obeys the logic of a successive unfolding was not a core teaching of Ramana's."
Friend,you have raised an interesting question.I will come back to you on this a little later.
Yes,Sri Aurobindo has an Awkward style(some of his disciples used to poke fun by saying that only 2 people understood what he wrote-The Mother and Sri Aurobindo himself!).Yet ,once we attune ourselves there is a Great depth and sweep to it.Much of it is yogic(Mystic) as well and is beyond the range of the ordinary intellect-only persons with some Yogic consciousness and experience would know what this Great Master is conveying.
Truly speaking there is no contradiction in the teachings,if we remember that no Master can describe the 'Whole Truth' although everyone has experienced the same Truth.
If we see the upanishads as well as The Vedas,we find that there are passages that describe the Truth as 'one' and 'Many' and beyond both,etc.
On the side of manifestation there is evolution(this needs to be properly understood-it does not mean starting from Zero and building up on that!)and Sri Aurbindo said that 'man' is not the last rung in the ladder and mind is not the last instrument that has been evolved to organise life.He posited a superior instrument by way of supermind which when manifest would organize life differently.
He wrote in Life Divine:
"The animal is a living laboratory in which Nature has, it is said, worked out man. Man himself may well be a thinking and living laboratory in whom and with whose conscious cooperation she wills to work out the superman."
We only need to remember that had Sri Aurobindo been just an 'intellectual' we may dismiss his writings as 'Grandiose Day dream' etc.Above all,he was a Mahayogi and this alone is enough for any discerning observer to suspend judgement.
Just like Nisargadutta Maharaj could not make out the 'Heart' of Sri Bhagavan-Not necessarily that everything is revealed or known by 'one source' of the Infinite.
Sri Ramakrishna used to say that even Sukadeva was at the most a Big ant who could carry a few grains of sugar!
More later.
Namaskar.
Hi, David,
I came across an article written by Michael James about a Bhagavan's devotee called Sri Tinnai Swami. I thought this account of his life amazing and quite extraordinary. Only one single word uttered by Bhagavan changed drastically his life for good.
As he passed away in 2003,and you have been living here in Tiru for so long, I'd like to know if you had some opportunity to see him sometime?
If some reader of this blog has interest in read the article, the link is this:
http://www.arunachalasamudra.org/4dm4.html
best regards.
s,
"i'm reminded of a wonderful saying of svAmi brahmAnanda (sri rAkhAl): "Spiritual life begins after nirvikalpa samAdhi"!
That would mean that it is better to be in the Mother's womb!
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
Ravi:
["...That would mean that it is better to be in the Mother's womb! ..."]
hahahahaha... not in that sense, but this just shorns us of the delusions one might be in with imagining oneself to be spiritual on the basis of the tidbits of sAdhanA one may be engaged in... :-)))
ana
I saw him a few times, but I did not have extensive contact with him.
s,
Ah!I meant the divine mother's womb!An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
SURENDRA:"Sir, why can't I meditate?"
MASTER:"You remember God and think of Him, don't you?"
SURENDRA:"Yes, sir. I go to sleep repeating the word 'Mother'."
MASTER:"That is very good. It will be enough if you remember God and think of Him."
Sri Ramakrishna had taken Surendra's responsibilities on himself. Why should Surendra
worry about anything?
It was evening. The Master was sitting on the floor of this room with the devotees. He was
talking to them about yoga and the six centes. These are described in the Siva Samhita.
MASTER:"Ida, Pingala, and Sushumna are the three principal nerves. All the lotuses are
located in the Sushumna. They are formed of Consciousness, like a tree made of wax-the
branches, twigs, fruits, and so forth all of wax. The Kundalini lies in the lotus of the
Muladhara. That lotus has four petals. The Primordial Energy resides in all bodies as the
Kundalini. She is like a sleeping snake coiled up-'of the form of a sleeping snake, having
the Muladhara for Her abode'. (To M.) The Kundalini is speedily awakened if one follows
the path of bhakti. God cannot be seen unless She is awakened. Sing earnestly and secretly
in solitude:
Waken, O Mother! O Kundalini, whose nature is Bliss Eternal!
Thou art the serpent coiled in sleep, in the lotus of the Muladhara.
"Ramprasad achieved perfection through singing. One obtains the vision of God if one
sings with yearning heart."
M: "Grief and distress of mind disappear if one has these experiences but once."
Proper time for spiritual unfoldment
MASTER: "That is true. Distress of mind disappears for ever. I shall tell you a few things
about yoga. But you see, the mother bird doesn't break the shell until the chick inside the
egg is matured. The egg is hatched in the fullness of time. It is necessary to practise some
spiritual discipline. The guru no doubt does everything for the disciple; but at the end he
makes the disciple work a little himself. When cutting down a big tree, a man cuts almost
through the trunk; then he stands aside for a moment, and the tree falls down with a crash."
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian/Friends,
"The Light within is something more brilliant, if one has to trust Atma Jnani's words. For want of better comparison, we call God as Koti Surya Prakasan, the One who shines like a crore of suns. "
Here is an excerpt from The Letters from Sri Ramanasramam:
21st February, 1946
(38) CHIRANJEEVIS (IMMORTAL BEINGS)
Yadavalli Rama Sastri came here the other day and asked
Bhagavan, “Swami, people say that the Self is as luminous as
a crore of suns. Is that true?” Bhagavan said, “Certainly!
Granted that its lustre is equal to that of a crore of suns, how
could it be determined? We can’t see with these eyes even the
one sun that is visible. How can we see a crore of suns? That is
a different eye with a different type of vision. When you can
see with that eye, you can give whatever name you like to it, a
crore of suns or moons, or anything you like.”
Namaskar.
An article by V.S. Ramanan in the
Ramana Way, April 2010:
The Power of the Word:
*
I often feel that if we follow if only the following verse of Sri Bhagavan, ours would be a life of Peace that passeth understanding. What more can one wish for? Has not Sri Bhagavan often said, inner peace is Mukti, Liberation?
tAnanDRi yArunDu tannai yaRenchollinen
tAntannai vAzhttukinum tAzhttiukinum - tAnenna
tAnpiRarenDRu OrAmal tannilaiyil pErAmal
taANenDRum ninDRiDvae tAn.
- Verse 38, Ulladu Narpadu (Suppl.)
(Without thinking of oneself as apart from others, without swerving from one's true state, if one always abides in one's Self, who is there that one is alien to? What does it matter what people say? What matters if it one praises or blames oneself?)
Sri Bhagavan asks: Who is there apart from the Self? Some might ask: Are there not others around us and elsewhere? Are we the only people in the world? What are you talking about?
Now, lest us read the verse carefully and try to understand what Sri Bhagavan says: "If one always abides in one's Self, who is there that one is alien to? Sri Bhagavan has taught us earlier in Verse 14 of ULLadu Naarpadu, that,
" "You" and "he" -- these appear only when "I" does.
But when the nature of the "I" is sought and the ego is destroyed, 'you' and 'he' are at an end.
What shines then as the One alone is the true Self."
To one who has seen the truth of this verse, the present verse will not be a puzzle. It is the ego, which is shadowy, divisive, separative, distortive and dualistic, that conjures up the "other". The ego, which is not the real "I", creates the unreal world and peoples it with 'you's and 'he's. When the ego is found out to be the phantom that it is and one abides as the luminous Self, there is none apart for the Self is non dual and all-encompassing. We saw how Sri Bhagavan was totally impersonal, how he ever abided as the all-pervasive Self, how serenely unaffected by praise and censure he was. He was the immense vastness of Consciousness Space, Chikdakasa.
The 'other' is the cause of all mischief -- it is a veritable Poltergeist! -- of fear, conflict, fear, restlessness, greed, lust, envy, ennui and everything that ruins peace. But Sri Bhagavan teaches us how to get rid of the 'other' in an instant. Just be yourself. When the phantom ego slips away, the phantom other makes itself scarce. Everything that gives us trouble is our own creation. If we are as we are, we are What Is, which is Pure Bliss. In Sri Ramana Gita, Sri Bhagavan says: "The universe is not apart from the mind, and the mind is not apart from the Heart (Self). The story, therefore, ends in the Heart." The mind creates the other, the world of appearances, the samsara, the universe. In the Heart there is only the all-encompassing Brahman.
If anybody says, what a frightening prospect it would be, a world without other, the answer is: Is hallucination so dear to you? Does Reality mean nothing to you?!
Once Sri Bhagavan was walking towards Palakottu, the devotees' little colony adjoining the Asramam, along with an American devotee. The American asked: Bhagavan! How about helping others when one gets Jnana? Sri Bhagavan turned back and said in English: "When you get Jnana, there are no others". In Jnana there is no ego, so there is no alter, no other.
When Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount and said: "Love they neighbor as thyself", he was indirectly telling his simple- hearted devotees that the neighbor was not different from them. When the noble Buddha taught that there are three kinds of pride, namely, to feel that one is more than the other, less than the other, and equal to the other, he was really teaching that there is no other.
continued..
Dear Ravi,
Yes. Sri Bhagavan calls it as andhamilak KaN, the endless Real Eye,
which is the Self, the Infinite. It is called Prajna Nayanam, anavaratha dhrishti or swarupa sakshatkaram. (Verse 4 of Ulladu Narpadu).
Arjuna was given special eyes but those are not Prajna nayanam. They are perhaps powerful eyes given by Sri Krishna, to see Sri Krishna's Viswarupam.
****
The Power of the Word:
Sri V.S. Ramanan - continues...
To my own mother Nagalakshmi Ammal, who was by the way His cousin, Sri Bhagavan once said, soon after her marriage: "Nagu, when someone has an attractive object, you should think that you are having it, you should not covet it." This one piece of upadedsa from the Master, religiously followed by my mother, deeply enriched my mother's life in a much higher sense than the materialistic.
Has not Sri Bhagavan said in Who am I? that when we give something to another, we are giving it to ourselves? Why, because there is no another. How often did He not gently upbraid the servers of food
at the dining hall when they sought to serve Him a little more than of a food item and told them:'See, I am eating in the form of all these hundred people.' Sri Bhagavan was a two-less Unity, the otherless immensity. All human beings, all forms of life were part of His all-inclusive Selfhood.
Then Sri Bhagavan asks: "What does it matter (to such a one) what people say of Him?" If we identify ourselves with our body, we are apt to get hurt psychologically and physically. We all have, don't we, very good memories, we never forget an insult! But the fact is that there never was an insult. It is we who create the others and their words or acts of insult. To the Jnani, there is neither the 'I am the body' feeling, nor 'I', nor the other and the other's insult. Does or can anybody see us? The great German poet Schiller got it right. He says 'Do you want to see me? Look within yourself.' That is the way to see. Why? Because we all have one real identity, the Self. The Seer is the Truth, not the seen. Sri Bhagavan always said, 'See the Seer'. When I see your body, I don't even see the tip of the iceberg. You are not even the iceberg, we are the ocean. We are one Samudraakaara (form of Ocean). The Jnani remains as the ocean. The unawakened one remains as the bubble and is scared to burst, little knowing that the death liberates the ocean in him, his true form.
Saint Kabir said: 'The detractor (nindak) is our friend. Let us keep him near us." Gandhiji asked his followers to feel free to criticize him - publicly. Confucius said "How
lucky I am! Whenever I commit a mistake, there are people to criticize me." When the devotees complained to Sri Bhagavan about detractors, He advised them to thank them and to beware of flattery.
continued.....
The Power of the Word:
Sri V.S. Ramanan - continues...
So, what matters what people say of us? If praise elates us and censure deflates us, are we not poor creatures miserably dependent opn the non existent 'other' for our happiness? Similarly, what matters if one praises or deprecates oneself? We are ever the Self, which is beyond praise and censure, beyond every duality. There was a Saint in a village in Japan who was revered by the entire village. One day the villagers angrily burst into his house and blurted out 'Sir, we have found out that you are not the holy, you an an immoral man.' 'Is it so?' the Saint said calmly. The entire village boycotted him. After several months, they came back one day and said: 'Sir, please forgive us. We now realize that you are pure as snow, you are indeed a Saint.' The Saint said calmly: 'Is it so?' We saw how praise and criticism left Sri Bhagavan equally untouched.
Once Sri Bhagavan corrected the proofs of a Malayalam biography writen by a non-Asramite. It contained many factual errors about Sri Bhagavan's life, some of them egregious. However, Sri Bhagavan corrected the grammatical and typographical errors and ignored the factual errors. When Kunju Swami, a Keralite devotee, demurred to this, Sri Bhagavan waved His hand and said, "As if everything else is true!" It so happened that that book never got printed. Is everything that is said and written in a world which is nothing but a spectacle, when all our thoughts are but bundles errors? Was not the Bard who wrote "Life is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing," echoing Adi Sankara who said, 'Samsara has no sara (substance), and the Vedantins
who says, "Jaganmithya" (the world is seemingly false/seemingly real)?
For one who sees the Truth of this, does it make any difference if one is praised or censured?
True Love rises above approbation and reproof, above all duality. St.
Augustine said, "Love with care and then, what you will, do". What is Love? Sri Bhagavan says 'Be As You Are', 'Abide as the Self.' The Self alone is Love, Peace, Reality, Bliss. I don't have to wait till the blessed moment of Self Realization, I should rise above praise and its opposite this very moment. It is Sri Bhagavan's Loving Command.
*****concluded.
R.subramanian/friends,
An excerpt from Swami vivekAnandA's 'Inspired talks':
"TUESDAY, August 6, 1895.
Without the "I" there can be no "you" outside. From this some philosophers came to the conclusion that the external world did not exist save in the subject; that the "you" existed only in the "I". Others have argued that the "I" can only be known through the "you" and with equal logic. These two views are partial truths, each wrong in part and each right in part. Thought is as much material and as much in nature as body is. Both matter and mind exist in a third, a unity which divides itself into the two. This unity is the Atman, the real Self."
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian/Friends,
"I should rise above praise and its opposite this very moment."
Reminded of the story of the witty TenAli rAmA,I had read as a child.TenAli rAmA was the court jester of King Krishna devarAya.Seeing the confidence and Respect that the king showed to rAma ,the queen becomes jealous and bluntly tells the king-'It is on account of your infatuation that you celebrate the wit of rAma.Others also need to be given an equal opportunity'.The King was carrying the child prince in his arms, playing and fondling it.He told his wife-'Alright.Let me summon everyone and subject them to a quiz.We will see who is the wittiest of the lot'.Forthwith he announced to everyone that there will be a 'Quiz' program and winner would be rewarded with a bag of Gold coins.A good crowd of intelligentia gathered ,eager not to let go of this opportunity.
The King ,Queen and the court had assembled.The King addressed the gathering and said-'This morning as I was in the Garden,someone kicked me in the Chest.What do I do with him?'
One after another ,people came with their responses:
1.How dare he kick the King?That too on his chest!His leg should be amputed.
2.He should be given 100 lashes.
3.He should be excommunicated from the Kingdom.
4.He should be sent to a mental asylum.
5.etc....etc.
After everyone had had their say,the King called out for rAmA and asked:'rAmA ,what is your response?'.
rAmA said:'Your Royal Highness!I suggest that you should kiss the feet that kicked you and adorn it with a fresh pair of Golden anklets'.(He immediately knew that the child prince was the only person who could have kicked the king in the chest!)
The king looked at the queen who bowed her head in shame;The bag of gold went to tenAli rAmA!
-----------------------------------
The point is that when there is Love,we look at things in a different perspective(including a Stone!).
In its absence,one tends to 'react' without even understanding what happened.The egoistic mind's reactions are like the ones mentioned in this story.
continued...
R.Subramanian/Friends,
The Story of Krishna deva rAyA contd...
I understand that Krishna deva rAyA was a great devotee of Saint AndAl and tiruppAvai.He wrote 'Amukta malyada' in Telugu verse.
Sri Krishnadevaraya was travelling via Vijayawada during his Kalinga campaign (c. 1516). He had conquered Vijayawada, kondapalli fort and the surrounding areas. He came to know about the holy temple of Śrī Āndhra Viṣhṇu and visited Srikakulam village for a few days. He performed the Ekadasi Vratam during that time. It is here that Lord Śrī Āndhra Viṣhṇu in all his glory appeared to the emperor in an early morning dream.
Krishnadevaraya himself recounts the circumstances of this work's composition as:
"Sometime ago, I was determined to conquer the Kalinga territory. On the way, I camped for a few days with my army at Vijayawada. Then I went to visit Andhra Vishnu, who lives in Srikakula. Observing the fast of the Vishnu's Day (Dvadasi), in the fourth and last watch of that God's night (Harivaasaram), Andhra Vishnu came to me in my dream. His body was a radiant black, blacker than the rain cloud. His eyes wise and sparkling, put the lotus to shame. He was clothed in the best golden silk, finer still than the down on his eagle's wings. The red sunrise is pale compared to ruby on his chest".
Lord Śrī Āndhra Viṣhṇu told him to compose the story of his wedding with Andal at Srirangam ("rangamandayina penDili seppumu.."). From 14th poem of this work we can see that the, Lord also ordered the emperor to tell the story in Telugu and referred himself as King of Telugus (Telugu Vallabhunḍa) and refers Sri Krishnadevaraya as Kannada King (Kannaḍa Rāya).
Sri Krishna Deva Raya's Āmuktamālyada beautifully describing the pangs of separation suffered by Sri Andal (incarnation of Mother Goddess Sri Mahalakshmi venerated as Sri Bhoomi Devi, the Goddess of Earth and the divine consort of Almighty Sriman Narayana) Andal (one of the twelve bhakti-era alwars) for her lover Lord Vishnu. He describes Andal’s physical beauty in thirty verses; using descriptions of the spring and the monsoon as metaphors. As elsewhere in Indian poetry - see Sringara - the sensual pleasure of union extends beyond the physical level and becomes a path to, and a metaphor for, spirituality and ultimate union with the divine.
One of the main characters is Periyalvar, the father of Andal. Lord Vishnu commands Periyalwar to teach a king of the Pandya dynasty the path of knowledge to moksha. Amuktamalyada is also known by the name Vishnu-chitteeyam, a reference to Vishnu-chittudu, the Telugu name of Vishnuchittar aka Periyalwar. Several other short stories are included in Amuktamalyada in the course of the main story of Godadevi, the Sanskrit name of Kothai Naachiyaar aka Andal, which is used throughout the tome. Krishna Raya was also well-versed in Sanskrit, Tamil and Kannada. 'Jambavati Kalyanam' is his Sanskrit work.
AndAl's advent was in the 8th century A.D and Krishna deva rAya had this dream in the 15th century!
We know how AndAl's tiruppAvai rules the month of mArghazi and sets the tone like the sounding of a conch calling forth all seekers-Sleepers Awake!(Not Bach's composition!)
Namaskar.
Friends,
AndAl's TiruppAvai(verse 6):
"puLLum cilambina kaaN puLLaraiyan kOyilil
veLLai viLicaNGkin pEraravam kEttilaiyO
piLLaay ezhunthiraay pEymulai naNYcuNtu
kaLLac cakatam kalakkazhiyak kaalOcci
veLLaththaravil thuyilamarn^tha viththinai
uLLaththuk koNtu munivargaLum yOgigaLum
meLLa ezhundhu "ari" enRa pEraravam
uLLam pukundhu kuLirndhu ElOr empaavaay"
Awaken,little girl!
Even the birds are chirping,
and in the temple of the Master of garuda
(who himself is the king of birds),
the calling conch
so white in hue
is sounding in strength,
don't you hear?
He who suckled away
the venom contained in
the deceit-laden breast
of the demoness putanai,
He who with a single
sweep of his leg
smashed to smithereens
the vicious wheel,
He is the seed of seeds
reclined in wakeful slumber
on the serpent-couch
in the ocean of milk.
Holding him in the heart,
sages and yogis,
as they awaken gently
and chant the name "Hari",
their incantation
gathering volume
reverberates in rumbling resonance
to enter our minds
and impart serenity.
Listen and ponder,our girl!(em pAvAi)
---------------------------------
Sage TGN's translation;In his talks he beautifully brings out the Rich imagery and symbolism of these peerless gems of 30 verses.
The vicious wheel is the wheel of six spokes-Kama,KrOdha,Moha,lobha,madam,Mascharyam,-Lust,anger,Infatuation,Greed,Delusion,jealousy with ego at the hub or center.
The sounds of bird chirping and the conch are heard by those whose inner ears are open(anAhata or unstruck sound).
Here is swAmi TuriyAnandA's(Hari,Disciple of Sri Ramakrishna)recall of this anAhata sound:
"While I was in the Jagannath temple at Puri I suddenly heard a strange sound, and an ecstatic feeling filled my heart. I felt like walking on air. The noise was like thunder, and from within it came a sweet sound—and something more which I cannot describe. I felt another power drawing my mind, and I became absorbed. Then I realized that I had heard what is known as anahata, the unstruck sound.”
----------------------------------
Even in ordinary parlance,the above verse has its sense, beauty in tact.
Namaskar.
Dear Ana and friends, I went to see Tinnai Swami years ago. His story is remarkable.
Interestingly he lived on the periphery of a family household, ensconced on the verandah. No decision was made without him. It was like he was the family oracle.
It was the old traditional India which is now fast changing.
hey jude and David,
Thank you.
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai: Eleventh
Verse - Verse No 1463 of Sri Ramana
Sannidhi Murai:
ULLaRkariya orumaiyanenRanum
ThaLakariya muzhuth thathuvathaan
saarntahaarkaN
MoLLa thakoou mukapolivaan mohathaith
TheLLa theLikkum thirunokkaan
chinthaiyaal
ALLakuRaiya aruLudaiyaan aaNda
thiRaam
ViLLaRkariya vizhupugazhaan
Venkatan seer
KaLLapaddakaLiyaaR kaarikayaai naam
padip
PaLLapani neer padiyelor Embaavaai.
Prof. K. Swaminathan:
One, one alone, unique beyond
All thinking, universal, whole,
excluding nothing.
Face bright to those who turn
towards Him,
His glance lights up, dispels
illusion.
Inexhaustible His grace,
Beyond the reach of speech His
greatness,
Such is Venkata. Let us innocent
maidens
Sing and dive deep, deep within
The waters of this bliss.
Muruganar says 'ullaRakariya' one who is beyond thought. The ULLaporuL, Sat (vide the first verse of Ulladu Narpadu) is the ULLaporuL. This is beyond thought.
It can only be experienced and not thought of in the Heart. The Upanishads say 'where the Vedas go in search and come back failing'. The Satvastu is only for experience. The experience is uNarthal, with proper attention or sraddha.
Saint Manikkavachagar also says, PaadaaLam ezhinum keezh soRkazhivu
paadamalar, in Verse 10 of Tiruvembavai. The Lord's feet is beyond the seven nether worlds and is beyond words. He also says in
TirupaLLi Ezhuchi, Verse 5,
GeethangaL paaduthal aaduthal allaal
KettoRiyom unaik kaNadaRivaarai...
We sing, we dance, but we do not
know who have 'seen' you and 'realized' you. The seeing is Sat
Darsanam, The seeing within is experiential.
He also says "chintanaikkum ariyaai" in the same verse. He is beyond thinking.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
In Talks, there are 12 conversations where Sri Bhagavan mentions about Mahavishnu.
Talks No. 208:
...The same word atma is used to signify the body, the senses, the mind, the vital principle, the individual soul and the Supreme Being. This wide application of the word has given rise o the idea that the individual soul (jivatma), goes to constitute the body of the Supreme (Paramatma). "I, O Arjuna! am the Self, seated in the heart of all being..." (B.G. X.20). The verse shows that the Lord is the Atma (Self) of all beings. Does it say, 'the Self of the selves'? If, on the other hand, you merge in the Self, there will be no individuality left. You will become the Source itself. In that case what is surrender? Who is to surrender what and to whom? This constitutes devotion, wisdom, and investigation.
Among the Vaishnavites too, Saint Nammazhwar says, 'I was in a maze, sticking to 'I' and 'mine'. I wandered without knowing my Self. On realizing my Self I understand that I myself am You and that 'mine' (my possessions) is only You."
Thus -- you see -- Devotion is nothing more than knowing oneself. the school of Qualified Monism also admits it. Still, adhering to their
traditional doctrine, they persist in affirming that the individuals are part of the Supreme -- his limbs as it were. Their traditional
doctrine says also that the individual soul should be made pure and then surrendered to the Supreme. Then the ego, is lost and one goes to the regions of Vishnu
after one's death; then finally there is the enjoyment of the Supreme or the Infinite!
To say that one is apart from the Primal Source is itself a pretension. To add that one divested of the ego becomes pure and yet retains individuality only to enjoy or serve the Supreme, is a deceitful stratagem. What duplicity is this -- first to appropriate what is really His, and then pretend to experience or serve Him! Is not all this already known to Him?
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 218:
Again Sri Bhagavan recounts the anecdote of Parvati testing Rama. The story is as follows:
Rama and Lakshmana were wandering in the forest in search of Sita. Rama was grief stricken. Just then Siva and Parvati happened to pass close by. Siva saluted Rama and passed on. Parvati was surprised and asked Siva to explain who He, the Lord of the Universe, being worshipped by all, should stop to salute Rama, an ordinary human who having missed his consort was grief stricken and moving in anguish in the wilderness and looking helpless. Siva then said: 'Rama is simply acting as a human being would under the circumstances. He is nevertheless the incarnation of Vishnu, and deserves to be saluted. You may test him if you choose."
Parvati considered the matter, took the shape of Sita and appeared in front of Raman, as he was crying out the name of Sita in great anguish. He looked at Parvati appearing as Sita, smiled and asked. "Why, Parvati, are you here? Where is Shambhu? Why have you taken the shape of Sita?" Parvati felt abashed and explained how she went there to test him and sought an explanation for Siva saluting him.
Rama replied: "We are all only aspects of Siva, worshipping Him at sight and remembering Him out of sight."
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 225:
When Sri Bhagavan and Rangaswami, an attendant, were on the rcoks, Sri Bhagavan noticed that someone in the
Asramam rocking in a rocking chair, and remarked to the attendant:
"Siva made over all His possessions to Vishnu and wandering away in the forests and wilderness and cemeteries and lived on food begged by Him. In His view non-possession is higher in the scale of happiness than possession of things."
Devotee: What is that higher happiness?
Maharshi: To be free from anxieties. Possessions create anxieties such as their safeguarding, their utilization, etc., Non-possession does not bring any anxieties in its train. Therefore Siva resigned everything in favor of Vishnu and He Himself went away happy.
Divestment of possessions is the highest happiness.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 308:
....
A question was asked regarding the avatars of Vishnu.
Maharshi: Let us know our own avatara. The knowledge of the other avataras will follow.
Again there was a question on Iswara.
Maharshi: Existence of Iswara follows from our conception of Iswara. Let us first know whose concept He is. The concept will be
only according to the one who conceives. Find out who you are and the other problem will solve itself.
****
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"(To Ram and the other devotees) "If you asked me which form of God you should meditate
upon, I should say: Fix your attention on that form which appeals to you most; but know
for certain that all forms are the forms of one God alone.
"Never harbour malice toward anyone. Siva, Kali, and Hari are but different forms of that
One. He is blessed indeed who has known all as one. Outwardly he appears as Siva's
devotee, But in his heart he worships Kali, the Blissful Mother, And with his tongue he
chants aloud Lord Hari's name.
-----------------------------------
Kanchi Pramacharya is just such a person!He used to acknowledge the salutations of devotees uttering 'nArayanA','nArAyana'.He had utter devotion for ambAl and wore siva's sacred ash!
Namaskar
R.Subramanian/Friends,
An excerpt from letters from Sri Ramanasramam:
27th July, 1948
(198) FAITH
This morning at 8 o’clock one of the ardent devotees
brought the Tamil note book written by Bhagavan and gave
it to him. Bhagavan showed the verses he required, turned
over some of the pages, showed some more verses and
explained their meaning. I could not hear him and so looked
at him enquiringly. Noticing it Bhagavan said loudly, “Some
time ago, Muruganar wrote two verses in Tamil in praise of
Vishnu. One is a Kayikam (pertaining to the body) and the
other is a Vachikam (pertaining to the word of mouth). The
gist of those verses is:
‘1. Swami, you took the Varaha Avatar (The Boar
Incarnation), lifted the earth which was submerged in water
and saved the people. How could I, one of the inhabitants of
the earth, praise you suitably for the great good you have
done me?’
‘2. The world was one great ocean (Ekarnavam) when
the devatas prayed to you to save them. You then took the
shape of a hamsa (swan) and when with both wings fanned
the water, the water gave way and the earth came out of it.
For what you have done for us, how can I sufficiently praise
you?’
This is the purport.
After writing those two verses he insisted on my writing
the third one Manasikam (pertaining to the mind). So I could
not help writing it."
Continued....
R.Subramanian/Friends,
Letters from Sri Ramanasramam contd...
"It was only then that I wrote the verse,
the purport of which is:
‘O Swami, to relieve the burden of the earth, you took
the avatar of Krishna and by your teaching through the Gita,
like, “whenever there is decline of righteousness,” “for the
protection of the virtuous”* you assured us that you would
have several other incarnations. To praise such a Lord and
his various forms, who am I?’
“These words of praise or ‘Who am I?’ have several
meanings and could be interpreted in different ways by
different people. I wrote this verse on Vishnu mainly on
Muruganar’s insistence. He wrote Kayikam and Vachikam and
said that Bhagavan alone should write the Manasikam. What
could I do?”
I said, “Who else could possibly write the Manasikam?”
Looking at a gentleman sitting opposite, Bhagavan said,
“Look, that Krishnaswami Iyer wrote a commentary on
Bhagavad Gita, attached a picture of Krishna on the front
page of the manuscript and pressed me to write something
underneath. Then I wrote the verse ‘Parthan Therinal’ (in
Tamil) and then changed it into a sloka in Sanskrit reading:
As the Charioteer of Partha (Arjuna), the Lord gave him
the divine teaching. May He, who is compassion incarnate
and who resolved the distress of Arjuna, protect us!
“It is found in Bhagavad Gita Ratnamalika. These are
the only two I have written in praise of Vishnu and I had to
write them under the above circumstances.”
-----------------------------------
Sri Bhagavan's ending the verse with 'who am I' reminds me of this humorous episode from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
With a smile Sri Ramakrishna said to the pundit: "Mani Mallick has been following the
tenets of the Brahmo Samaj a long time. You can't convert him to your views. Is it an easy
thing to destroy old tendencies? Once there lived a very pious Hindu who always
worshipped the Divine Mother and chanted Her name. When the Mussalmans conquered
the country, they forced him embrace Islam. They said to him: 'You are now a Mussalman.
Say "Allah". From now on you must repeat only the name of Allah.' With great difficulty
he repeated the word 'Allah', but every now and then blurted out 'Jagadamba'. At that the
Mussalmans were about to beat him. Thereupon he said to them: 'I beseech you! Please do
not kill me. I have been trying my utmost to repeat the name of Allah, but our Jagadamba
has filled me up to the throat. She pushes out your Allah.' (All laugh.)
Despite Sri Bhagavan writing that verse on Vishnu,the words 'Who am I'(nAn yAr)seem to have been forced out of him,despit himself!
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian/Friends,
Excerpt from Letters from Sri Ramanasramam:
what exactly is meant
by Visishtadvaita? That which is Visishta (distinguished) and
best is Vishnu. That is Ishwara, Sadasiva, Brahma and all.
That which is, is only One. Some Vaishnavaites give it a name
and a shape and do not admit that there could be any
Sayujyam (absorption in the Supreme Being) except by way
of living in the same world (Salokyam), in the same vicinity
(Sameepyam), and the same form (Sarupyam) as the Supreme
Being. They say, arpana, arpana (offering, offering). How can
there be arpana unless there is a thing called ‘I’? Complete
surrender cannot come about unless one knows who one is.
If you come to know that, you will realise that what remains
is only one thing. The mind which is the ‘I’ submits of its
own accord. And that is the real arpana (surrender),” said
Bhagavan.
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 326:
.....
If one wants to abide in the thought-free state, a struggle is inevitable. One must fight one's way through before regaining one's original primal state. If one succeeds in the fight and reaches the goal, the enemy, namely, thoughts, will all subside in the Self and disappear entirely. The thoughts are the enemy. They amount to the creation of the universe. In their absence, there is neither the world, nor God the Creator. The Bliss of the Self is the single Being only.
When Prahlada was in Samadhi, Vishnu thought within Himself: "This Asura being in samadhi, all the asuras are in peace. There is no fight, no trial of strength, no search for power, nor the means for gaining power. In the absence of such means for power - the yaga, yajna, etc., i.e the gods are not thriving; there is no new creation; nor even is any existence justified. So I will wake him up. Then the asuras will rise up. Their original nature will manifest itself. The gods will challenge them. The asuras and others will then seek strength and adopt the means for its acquisition. Yajnas etc., will flourish. The gods will thrive. There will be more and more of creation, more of fight and I shall have enough to do."
So Vishnu awakened Prahlada, blessing him with eternal life and Jivanmukti. Deva-asura fight was resumed and the old order of things was restored so that the universe continues in its eternal nature.
Devotee: How could God Himself wake up the asura element and bring about constant warfare? Is not Pure Goodness the nature of God?
Maharshi: Goodness is only relative. Good is always implies bad also. They always co exist. The one is the obverse of the other.
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 327:
.....
.....
Sri Bhagavan said: One may seem to out of the body. But the body itself is not more than our thought. There can be no body in the absence of thought. No outgoing or incoming in the absence of a body. However, owing to the habit the feeling of going out arises.
A particle of hail falling on the surface of the sea melts away and becomes water, wave, froth etc., in the sea. Similarly the subtle intellect, rising up as the tiny dot (ego) from the heart and bulging out, finally enters into and becomes one with the Heart.
Though milk remains as wide as the sea, can you drink it with a mouth as wide as the sea? You can suck it only through the tiny capillaries of the paps.
Nammazhwar, the Vaishnavite Saint, has said, "Only my Self is you." What does it mean? "Before I realized my Self I was wandering looking out for You; having now realized my Self I see that you are my Self." How will this fit in with qualified monism? It must be explained thus: "Pervading all my Self you remain as the antaryami (immanent Being). Thus I am a part of your body and you are the owner of the body (sariri)"
....The protagonists of qualified monism think that individuality is necessary to experience the Bliss. Individuality, that is, I-ness should not be lost. Aha! The Self is not the body but your Self becomes the body of God! Is it not absurd? Or if you make prapatti (surrender yourself) to God, you have made yourself over to Him and you are His and no longer yours. If He is need of a body let Him look out for Himself. You need not say He is the owner of a body.
****
hey jude,
You wanted to know about Sri Aurobindo and whether he admitted evolution.Yes,and in this he departed ways with the hardcore advaitic school of thought.In this respect,it is interesting to note that in a seed form ,this is found in some of the utterances of Sri Ramakrishna as well.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Essence of Vedanta
(To Mahimacharan) "In the light of Vedantic reasoning the world is illusory, unreal as a
dream. The Supreme Soul is the Witness-the witness of the three states of waking, dream,
and deep sleep. These things are in your line of thought. The waking state is only as real as
the dream. Let me tell you a story that agrees with your attitude.
"There was a farmer. who lived in the countryside. He was a real jnani. He earned his
living by farming. He was married, and after many years a son was born to him, whom he
named Haru. The parents loved the boy dearly. This was natural, since he was the one
precious gem in the family. On account of his religious nature the farmer was loved by the
villagers. One day he was working in the field when a neighbour came and told him that
Haru had had an attack of cholera. The farmer at once returned home and arranged for
treatment for the boy. But Haru died. The other members of the family were grief-stricken,
but the farmer acted as if nothing had happened. He consoled his family and told them that
grieving was futile. Then he went back to his field. On returning home he found his wife
weeping even more bitterly. She said to him: "How heartless you are! You haven't shed one
tear for the child.' The farmer replied quietly: 'Shall I tell you why I haven't wept? I had a
very vivid dream last night. I dreamt I had become a king; I was the father of eight sons and
was very happy with them. Then I woke up. Now I am greatly perplexed. Should I weep for
those eight sons or for this one Haru?'
'The farmer was a jnani; therefore he realized that the waking state is as unreal as the
dream state. There is only one eternal Substance, and that is the Atman.
"But for my part I accept everything: Turiya and also the three states of waking, dream; and
deep sleep. I accept all three states. I accept all- Brahman and also maya, the universe, and
its living beings. If I accepted less I should not get the full weight."
A DEVOTEE: "The full weight? How is that?" (All laugh.)
continued....
hey jude,
The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...
Qualified Advaita
MASTER: " Brahman is qualified by the universe and its living beings. Atthe beginning,
while following the method of 'Not this, not this', one has to eliminate the universe and its
living beings. But as long as 'I-consciousness' remains, one cannot but feel that it is God
Himself who has become everything. He alone has become the twenty-four cosmic
principles.
"When a man speaks of the essential part of the bel-fruit, he means its flesh only, and not
the seeds and shell. But if he wants to speak of the total weight of the fruit, it will not do for
him to weigh only the flesh. He must accept the whole thing: seeds and shell and flesh.
Seeds and shell and flesh belong to one and the same fruit.
Synthesis of Sankara and Ramanuja
"The Nitya and the Lila belong to the same Reality. Therefore I accept everything, the
Relative as well as the Absolute. I don't explain away the world as maya. Were I to do that I
should get short weight."
MAHIMACHARAN: "It is a good synthesis: from the Absolute to the Relative, and from
the Relative to the Absolute."
MASTER: 'The jnanis regard everything as illusory, like a dream; but the bhaktas accept all
the states. The milk flows only in dribblets from the jnani. (All laugh.) There are some
cows that pick and choose their fodder; hence their milk flows only in dribblets. But cows
that don't discriminate so much, and eat whatever they get, give milk in torrents. A superior
devotee of God accepts both the Absolute and the Relative; therefore he is able to enjoy the
Divine even when his mind comes down from the Absolute. Such a devotee is like the cows
that give milk in torrents." (All laugh.)
MAHIMA: "But the milk of a cow that eats without discrimination smells a little."
(Laughter.)
MASTER (with a smile): "That's true, no doubt: Therefore that milk should be boiled. One
should boil such milk over the fire a little while; there will be no smell whatever if you boil
the milk over the fire of Knowledge. (All laugh.)
continued...
hey jude,
with that saying of Sri Ramakrishna(there are other things he has said as well-the distinction he makes between the jivakotis and iswara kotis for example)as a precursor,the following passage from(Letters on Yoga) Sri Aurobindo may be followed:
I don't know that I can help you very much with an answer to your friend's questions. I can only state my own position with regard to these matters.
SHANKARA'S EXPLANATION OF THE UNIVERSE
It is rather difficult to say nowadays what really was Shankara's philosophy: there are numberless exponents and none of them agrees with any of the others. I have read accounts given by some scores of his exegesis and each followed his own line. We are even told by some that he was no Mayavadin at all, although he has always been famed as the greatest exponent of the theory of Maya, but rather, the greatest Realist in philosophical history. One eminent follower of Shankara even declared that my philosophy and Shankara's were identical, a statement which rather took my breath away. One used to think that Shankara's philosophy was this that the Supreme Reality is a spaceless and timeless Absolute (Parabrahman) which is beyond all feature or quality, beyond all action or creation, and that the world is a creation of Maya, not absolutely unreal, but real only in time and while one lives in time; once we get into a knowledge of the Reality, we perceive that Maya and the world and all in it have no abiding or true existence. It is, if not non-existent, yet false, jaganmithyā; it is a mistake of the consciousness, it is and it is not; it is an irrational and inexplicable mystery in its origin, though we can see its process or at least how it keeps itself imposed on the consciousness. Brahman is seen in Maya as Ishwara upholding the works of Maya and the apparently individual soul is really nothing but Brahman itself. In the end, however, all this seems to be a myth of Maya, mithyā, and not anything really true. If that is Shankara's philosophy, it is to me unacceptable and incredible, however brilliantly ingenious it may be and however boldly and incisively reasoned; it does not satisfy my reason and it does not agree with my experience. I don't know exactly what is meant by this yuktivāda. If it is meant that it is merely for the sake of arguing down opponents, then this part of the philosophy has no fundamental validity; Shankara's theory destroys itself. Either he meant it as a sufficient explanation of the universe or he did not. If he did, it is no use dismissing it as Yuktivada. I can understand that thorough-going Mayavadin's declaration that the whole question is illegitimate, because Maya and the world do not really exist; in fact, the problem how the world came to existence is only a part of Maya, is like Maya unreal and does not truly arise; but if an explanation is to be given, it must be a real, valid and satisfying explanation. If there are two planes and in putting the question we are confusing the two planes, that argument can only be of value if both planes have some kind of existence and the reasoning and explanation are true in the lower plane but cease to have any meaning for a consciousness which has passed out of it.
----------------------------------
If time and patience permits,you may refer to 'Integral Yoga and Other Paths' (Letters on Yoga) and read it here:
http://sriaurobindoashram.info/Content.aspx?ContentURL=/_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-01%20Works%20of%20Sri%20Aurobindo/-01%20English/-01_SABCL/-22_Letters%20on%20Yoga_Volume-22/-05_Integral%20Yoga%20and%20Other%20Paths-I.htm
Namaskar.
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai:
Verse 12. Verse 1464 of Sri Ramana
Sannidhi Murai:
KaNNinRa kanjathar kaatukinRa
meiyuruvaal
ThaNNenRa neermaiyal sangach choozh
koLkaiyaal
ThuNNenRul thoyvaar malan kazhuvooun
thoomaiyaal
ENNinRa Venkatanum siRparaiyum
ponRisaintha
MaNNinRa manadhamaa vaavi maanum
madukkaN
ENNil perinbam idhayath thalam
ponga
UNNaramudham pol ucchithaman theem
pugazhai
PaNNaara odhip padiyelor Embaavaai.
Prof. K. Swaminathan:
His eyes are lotuses reflecting His
true form.
Here, in the water cold, shells
shine all round
Those who boldly, quickly dive
within
Have their minds cleansed, purified
As bright Venkata and the goddess
Pure Awareness meet and match.
So in countless hearts springs
bliss divine
As earthly beings dive deep, deep
within
And touch the hidden cause of all
things known.
Sing maidens, sing His praises high
In bliss nectareous, dive and
bathe.
This verse is noted for two things.
One is, Saint Manikkavachagar says that the inner meaning of Tiruvembaavai is Praising the Sakti, the divine goddess. Siva and
Sakti are together as red lotus and
black kuvaLai flower in the ponds
of Tiruvannamalai (verse 12). Is not Arunachala, the place where Sakti became half of Siva? "Pagam
PeNNuru aanaai poRRi" says PoRRi
Tiru Ahaval. Muruganar is trying to bring the same concorparate principle of Sivam and Sakti in this song. He says "Venkatanum ChiRparaiyum" i.e Sri Bhagavan and the Goddess Pure Awareness!
Secondly, ok, Manikkavachagar says red lotus and black kuvaLai flower in the ponds of Tiruvannamalai. Here in Sri Bhagavan's Hall, where is the pond? The pond is "Manadhama vavi madukkaN". That is the minds of devotees, cleansed, purified, is the deep well or deep pond, where
Sri Bhagavan and the goddess Pure
Awareness, rest!
KuvaLai is also called Neelotpalam.
Mother is blue or black. Siva is red, golden red. 'Chenthazhal purai tiru meniyum kaatti - says verse 8 of Tirupalli Ezhuchhi. Siva is like fire or fiery rad or golden red.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 385:
......
Devotee: But there is the world for God.
Maharshi: How does it appear? How are we? Knowing this, you know God. You will know if He is Siva, or Vishnu or any other or all put together!
Devotee: Is Vaikunta in Paramapada, i.e. in the transcendent Self?
Maharshi: Where is Vaikunta or Paramapada, unless in you?
Devotee: Vaikunta etc., appear invlunatarily.
Maharshi: Does this world appear voluntarily? (Does the world say - Look, I am here, see!)
The questioner returned no answer.
Maharshi: The self evident "I"
ignoring the Self, goes about seeking to know the non-Self. How absurd!
Devotee: This is Samkhya Yoga. Being the culmination of all kinds
of other yogas, how can it be understood to start with? Is not bhakti antecedent to it?
Maharshi: Has not Sri Krishna started the Gita with Samkhya yoga?
Devotee: Yes. I understand it now.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 461:
As Sri Bhagavan was going through the letters which arrived his day. He read out one of them as follows:
A brahmin boy working in a household went to sleep as usual. In his sleep he cried out. When he woke up he said that he felt his prana going out of the body through the mouth and nostrils. So he cried. Soon after he found himself dead and the soul taken to Vaikunta where God Vishnu was surrounded by other gods and devotees with prominent Vaishnavite marks on thei foreheads. Vishnu said, "This boy should be brought here at 2 O'Clock tomorrow. Why has he been brought
here now?" The boy then woke up and related his experience.
The next day at 2 O'Clock he passed away!
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 534:
Annamalai asked: Namdev, Tukaram, Tulsidas and others are said to have seen Maha Vishnu. How did they see Him?
Maharshi: In what manner? Just in the same manner as you see me now and I see you here. They would also have seen Vishnu in this way only.
(He records that, on hearing it, his hairs stood on end and an intense joy overpowered him.)
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 627:
Devotee: What is staying with the Guru?
Maharshi: It means studying the sacred lore.
Devotee: But there is the special virtue of the Guru's presence.
Maharshi: Yes. That purifies the mind.
Devotee: That is the effect or reward. I asked about how the disciple ought to behave.
Maharshi: That differs according to the type of the disciple - student, householder, what are his own ingrained mental tendencies and so on.
Devotee: If so, will it naturally come out right?
Maharshi: Yes. In former times, the
Rishis sent their sons to others for education.
Devotee: Why?
Maharshi: Because affection stood in the way.
Devotee: That cannot be their for the Jnanis. Was it in respect of the disciples?
Maharshi: Yes.
Devotee: If so would not this obstacle get removed along with all
the others, through the Master's Grace?
Maharshi: There will be delay. Owing to the disciple's want of reverence, grace may become effective only after a long time.
It is said that awaking from ignorance is like awaking from a fearful dream of a beast. It is thus: There are two taints of mind, namely veiling and restlessness (avarana and vikshepa). Of the two, the former is evil. The latter is not so. So long as the veiling effect of sleep persists there is the frightful dream. On awaking the veiling ceases. And there is no more fear. Restlessness is not a bar to happiness. To get rid of the restlessness caused by the world one seeks the restlessness (activity) of being with the Guru,
studying the sacred lore and worshipping God with forms, and by these awakening is attained.
What happens in the end? Karna was ever the son of Kunti. The tenth man was such all along. Rama was Vishnu all the time. Such is the Jnanam. It is being aware of That which always is.
****
Dear Ravi and friends, Thanks for the stories of the jnani farmer and the story of the boiled milk.
Alot to absorb, alot to take in.
From a worldly point of view I think humanity has not evolved one
iota. As yet I can't comment on this from a spiritual perspective.
Again thanks for your goodwill.
When you forget your own scheming,
happiness will come to you from your spiritual guide.
When you are forgetful of self,
you are remembered by God;
when you have become God's slave,
then you are set free
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 371:
Devotee: What is dhyana?
Maharshi: Dhyana is holding on to a single thought and putting off all the other thoughts.
Devotee: What is to be meditated upon?
Maharshi: Anything that you prefer.
Devotee: Siva, Vishnu, and Gayatri are said to be equally efficacious.
Which should I meditate upon?
Maharshi: Any one you like best. They are all equal in their effect.
But you should stick to one.
Devotee: How to meditate?
Maharshi: Concentrate on that one whom you like best. If a single thought prevails, all other thoughts are put off and finally eradicated. So long as diversity prevails there are bad thoughts. When the object of love prevails, only good thoughts hold the field.
Therefore, hold on to one thought only. Dhyana is the chief practice.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vishnu:
Talks No. 652:
A certain person had composed verses in praise of Sri Bhagavan. Therein the word Avartapuri occurs. Sri Bhagavan said it means Tiruchuzhi, the birth place of Sri Bhagavan. The place goes by different names. Avarta chuzhi is an eddy. There had been several deluges. God Siva saved this place from three of them. On one occasion when the whole land surface was immersed in the waters, Siva planted His spear in that place. All the waters, which would have otherwise flooded it, were drawn into that hole. Then an eddy was formed. Hence the name. Again in another deluge, He held the place aloft on the top of the spear. Hence Soolapuri.
Mother Earth was carried away by Hiranyaksha, into the waters. When recovered by Vishnu, she felt that she had papasparsa (touch of a sinner) by that Rakshasa. As an expiation of that impure touch she worshipped Siva in that place. Hence, Bhuminathesvara Kshetra.
Gautama is prominent in Arunachala as well as in Tiruchuzhi. Siva showed Himself to the Saint in the dancing posture and also re-enacted the wedding of Gauri Sankar.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vivekananda:
Talks No. 252:
Devotee: Sri Ramakrishna touched Vivekananda and the latter realized Bliss. Is it possible?
Maharshi: Sri Ramakrishna did not touch all for that purpose. He did not create Atma. He did not create Realization. Vivekananda was ripe. He was anxious to realize. He must have completed the preliminary course in his past births. Such is possible for ripe persons only.
Devotee: Can the same miracle be worked for all?
Maharshi: If they are fit. Fitness is the point. A strong man controls the weaker man. A strong mind controls the weaker mind. That was what happened in the case cited. The effect was only temporary. Why did Vivekananda sit quiet? Why did he wander all about after the miracle? Because the effect was only temporary.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Swami Vivekananda:
Talks No. 398:
Devotee: Swami Vivekananda says that a spiritual Guru can transfer spirituality substantially to the disciple.
Maharshi: Is there a substance to be transferred? Transfer means eradication of the sense of being
the disciple. The master does it. Not that the man was something at one time and metamorphosed later into another.
Devotee: Is not Grace the gift of the Guru?
Maharshi: God, Grace, and Guru are all synonymous and also eternal and immanent. Is not the Self already within? It is for the Guru to bestow It by his look? If a Guru thinks so, he does not deserve that name.
......
......
What did Dakshinamurti do? He was silent. The disciples appeared before Him. He maintained silence, the doubts of the disciples were dispelled, which means that they lost their individual identities. That is Jnana and not all the verbiage usually associated with it. Silence is the most potent form of work. However vast and emphatic the Sastras may be, they fail in their effect. The Guru is quiet and peace prevails in all. His silence is more vast and more emphatic than all the Sastras put together....
Tayumanavar says: "Oh Lord! Coming with me all along the births, never abandoning me and finally rescuing me!" Such is the experience of Realization.
Srimad Bhagavad Gita says the same in a different way. "We too are not only now but have ever been so."
****
Sri Bhagavan and Swami Vivekananda:
Maharshi: People have read of Swami Vivekananda having asked Sri Ramakrishna, "Have you seen God?" and imitate him now. They also ask,"Have you realized God?" I ask what is Realization.
Realization implies perfection. When you are limited, your perception is also limited. Your knowledge is thus imperfect. Of what value is that imperfect knowledge?
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Swami Vivekananda:
Talks No. 518:
.......
........
The Pandit asked about the operation of Grace. Is it the mind of the Guru acting on the mind of the disciple or anything different?
Maharshi: The Highest Form of Grace is Silence. (Mouna). It is also the highest upadesa.
Devotee: Vivekananda has also said that silence is the loudest form of prayer.
Maharshi: It is so, for the seeker's silence, Guru's silence is the loudest upadesa. It is also Grace in its highest form. All other dikshas (initiations) e.g. sparsa, chakshus, are derived from Mouna (silence). Guru is silent, the seeker's silent mind gets purified by itself.
****
R.Subramanian/Friends,
In recent documented hagiography,two of the potent form of initiations were the touch of Sri Ramakrishna and the look of Sri Bhagavan.contrary to what is believed,this has not taken place with just one or two individuals(vivekananda for example)but countless were the seekers who received the Divine touch or look of Sri Ramakrishna(I do not have to mention about Sri Bhagavan here!)and whose lives were totally changed(not a temporary effect!).
Here is the incident concerning Swami Vivekananda:
Narendra (future Swami Vivekananda) had gone to the Kali temple at Dakshineswar for the first time in early 1882. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa did not touch young Narendra on that occasion, although he had a very strange experience (Sri Ramakrishna addressed him as a long lost friend) which made him doubt the mental equilibrium of Sri Ramakrishna. Narendra had promised a second visit to Dakshineswar and when he went there after about a month, he found Sri Ramakrishna alone in his room, sitting in a 'strange" mood, on his bed. He invited Narendra to sit by his side.
Soon after Narendra had taken his seat on the bed a foot or so away from Sri Ramakrishna, the latter, without uttering a word of welcome, muttered a few words in an ecstatic mood, suddenly raised his right foot and placed it on Narendra"s body. The touch had an astonishing effect. Narendra"s eyes were wide open and he was sitting in a room on the banks of Ganga at Dakshineswar. But he saw the whole world vanishing! The walls of the room, the doors, the Kali temple, the lush garden—everything was whirling round and vanishing! Even he himself was vanishing with everything there! Everything seen by him was becoming one with infinity. Was he facing death? He was terrified and he cried out loudly: 'Ah, what are you doing to me? Don"t you know that I have parents at home?"1
Hearing this earnest cry of the young Narendra, Sri Ramakrishna laughed, and immediately moving his hand on Narendra"s chest, he said: 'All right, let it stop now. It will happen in its own good time."2
What a gulf of difference between the two touches of Sri Ramakrishna to Swami Vivekananda administered in the span of a minute or two! The first touch, as Swamiji himself admitted later, cast him into the ocean of infinity, and the second one, pulled him out, as it were, from that infinite ocean and brought him back on solid earth of this mundane world. Same touch!"
You may read the series of articles concerning the spiritual touch of Sri Ramakrishna featured in Vedanta Kesari magazine here:
http://living.oneindia.in/yoga-spirituality/spiritual-masters/sri-ramakrishna/paramahamsa-touch-120811.html
-----------------------------------
This 'touch' experience made Naren wonder about it.He knew it was not any hynotic thing where a strong mind could overpoer a weak mind-He prided himself on having such a Strong mind!He however took care to maintain a 'safe distance' from the mad man!
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Nice to read the incident in full details from your post. Swami Vivekananda was afraid that he was losing himself though he had the experience of the Infinite. Some people welcome it. Wolter Kiers for example in the case of Sri Bhagavan. Another man from Pondicherry, when Sri Bhagavan looked at him (he was all along
talking something which was not palatable to the devotees sitting in the Hall), he became totally terrified. He said: Not now, not now,on some other occasion please!
Basically I think one is afraid of losing the 'ego' and the ego in turn creates fear of losing relatives, friends etc., when Guru looks at you or when he touches you. No one wants to lose his life for the sake of merger with God so easily. The vasanas are so thick.
Perhaps Sri Ramakrishna left it at that because, in the scheme of things Swami Vivekananda had to go to the world to speak about Hinduism, I think he went two times abroad. Unlike Swami Brahmananda who just wanted to remain where he was basking in the glory of Sri Ramakrishna.
The first of Jan. is Kalpataru Day, where Sri Ramakrishna called every one to come to Him to have the blessings. How many in Calcutta did go to Him on that day? That is why the disciples are restricted to just 16 only.
Many are called. Only a few come.
Still a fewer is chosen, says Sri Bhagavan. How true!
****
I thought Narendra was the sole support of his mother and sister. A young lawyer he was afraid after that divine experience he would not be able to support his family. Later Ramakrishna said he would earn just enough to survive. Ramakrishna intuitivley knew that Narendra would go overseas and spread the great message of vedanta.
R.Subramanian,
"The first of Jan. is Kalpataru Day, where Sri Ramakrishna called every one to come to Him to have the blessings. How many in Calcutta did go to Him on that day? That is why the disciples are restricted to just 16 only."
What makes you think that there are only 16 Disciples?These took to sannyasa,that is all.There were countless others who were householders-'m','purna chandra Ghosh''Ramachandra Datta',Gopaler ma',Akshay,not to miss the Great Nag Mahasaya!Many Many others.
Did Ramakrishna call at all on January 01 ,1886?Who ever told you this?
Here is an excerpt from an article about the Kalpataru day:
Now where does this leave us? How and when can this Kalpataru grace descend in our own lives? True, divine grace is unconditional. But in our heart of hearts we do feel that without some sort of readiness to receive the grace, we make ourselves unfit for it. At least, that is what the experience of Vaikunthanath Sanyal shows. He was among those fortunate few who partook of the “Kalpataru grace” on the red-letter day. When he approached the Master and begged him to shower his grace, the latter said that he had already given him what he had wanted. “But please make me understand that I have received it,” he pleaded and, on being touched by the Master, a great revolution took place in his mind. Wherever he looked, he beheld the figure of the Master lit up with a gracious smile. The experience continued unabated for some days. He found it impossible to carry on his work in the office and to attend to other duties. He even began to doubt his sanity and prayed to the Master, “O Lord, I am not able to contain this mental state. Please ordain that it may come to an end.” His prayer was answered: the vision and the mental state subsided gradually.
This shows that the receptacle too ought to be strong enough to hold the grace divine. Unless the mind becomes sufficiently pure and is purged of desires, it is not possible to receive the grace; and if received, as in the case of Vaikunthanath Sanyal, it is not possible to retain it. Even Sri Krishna had to withdraw his Viśvarūpa from the frightened Arjuna, and Ramakrishna had to restrain himself from giving the highest realization to Narendranath on the latter’s first visit to him. So preparing ourselves to receive the grace is our first and foremost duty. To the extent we are able to do it, we come nearer to this “special” Kalpataru; or, should we say it is the Kalpataru that moves nearer to us?
This shows that the receptacle too ought to be strong enough to hold the grace divine. Unless the mind becomes sufficiently pure and is purged of desires, it is not possible to receive the grace; and if received, as in the case of Vaikunthanath Sanyal, it is not possible to retain it. Even Sri Krishna had to withdraw his Viśvarūpa from the frightened Arjuna, and Ramakrishna had to restrain himself from giving the highest realization to Narendranath on the latter’s first visit to him. So preparing ourselves to receive the grace is our first and foremost duty. To the extent we are able to do it, we come nearer to this “special” Kalpataru; or, should we say it is the Kalpataru that moves nearer to us?"
The complete article is here:
http://web.mac.com/tyag/Home/009.html
It may be noted that neither Narendra or 'M' were there on that day!We never could get a first hand report from 'M'!
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan and Swami Vivekananda:
Talks No. 164:
Devotee: Sri Ramakrishna prepared
Vivekananda. What is the power behind?
Maharshi: The power is only on in all.
Devotee: What is the nature of that force?
Maharshi: Just like iron filings drawn towards a magnet, the force is inside and not outside. Ramakrishna was in Vivekananda. If you think Vivekananda to be a body, Ramakrishna also is a body. But they are not bodies. Vivekananda could not go into Samadhi had not Ramakrishna been within him.
****
Dear Ravi,
Okay. You have added a few more and 16 disciples are only those who took sannyasa.
Now on this Kalpataru Day, Sri Ramakrishna did not call all specifically. Being Jan 1. a holiday in British times, many came to Sri Ramakrishna to receive his
blessings. Some like Vaikunth Sanyal received special grace from
Sri Ramakrishna.
Grace is unlimited, more than the dimensions of an ocean. But if the ego does not come in the way, the Grace will be received in full by us. If one takes only a spoon, he will get a spoonful, and if another takes a barrel, he will take barrel-ful, this is what Sri Bhagavan also tells.
*****
R.Subramanian/Friends,
Here is how the bihari boy Rakhtu ram(Latu, and was given the name Swami AdbhutAnanda;Adbhuta-wonder)was touched by Sri Ramakrishna:
Rakhturam was his original name—was brought up by his uncle. Famine and hard circumstances made them leave their native village and migrate to Kolkata.
As luck would have it, the boy Rakhtu got a job in the house of Ramachandra Datta, one of the earliest devotees of Sri Ramakrishna. Whenever he went to Dakshineswar, Ramachandra would carry with him some fruits and sweets for Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. On his return, he would enthusiastically tell his wife what Ramakrishna Paramahamsa had said on the day. We do not know how she responded to these narrations, but Latu, who heard it with rapt attention, was deeply influenced. He was slowly getting drawn to Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and had become eager to see his unseen, unknown guru.
Once when Ramachandra went to Dakshineswar in sometimes 1879 or 1880, Latu, one might say, forced himself into the carriage taking Ramachandra to Dakshineswar. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa as not in his room when they reached there. Latu carried a basket that Ramachandra was taking with him, into Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's room and being conscious of his status as a servant of Ramachandra, he stood outside the entrance. On returning to his room, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's keen eye fell on Latu and he asked Ramachandra if the boy standing outside the room had come with him. And before Ramachandra gave any reply, Ramakrishna added: 'I see some holy signs in him." Then he asked Latu to enter the room and to be seated. Then he spoke about underground springs which remain covered until a stone mason digging the earth removes a particular rock. Then the water begins to flow.
Saying so he put his hand on Latu"s head. The very next moment the spiritual spring hidden in Latu, as it were, began to flow and Latu experienced samadhi. He was in such a charged state that tears began to trickle down his eyes and he just could not control the quivering of his lips. This ecstasy of Latu lasted for a full one hour. And Ramakrishna Paramahamsa touched him once more and Latu returned to the normal state of consciousness slowly. As in the case of Narendra, on being touched by Ramakrishna Paramahamsa twice, one uplifting and the other bringing him back to the normal state, Latu had been elevated to a high spiritual state by the first touch of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and brought back to normalcy by the second. And as Swami Chetanananda has put it, 'Latu"s body returned to Calcutta but his mind remained in Dakshineshwar". And one might add, his heart also remained at Dakshineswar."
You may read the series of articles here(5 part article):
http://living.oneindia.in/search.html?topic=ramakrishna-paramahamsa
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
What Sri Bhagavan has said is indisputable;What we make of it is what is in question.
Did not Sri Bhagavan not say that the prey sighted by the Tiger cannot escape.The 'Permanent' or 'Temporary' has to be understood in this sense.The Grace of the Guru thus imparted has to be considered 'Permanent' i this sense.
It needs to be considered 'Temporary' for someone who is lazily waiting or dreaming for a 'Crumb' to be dispensed!
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
"Some like Vaikunth Sanyal received special grace from
Sri Ramakrishna."
Not some but all but 2 or 3 persons,the Master refrained from 'giving', yet he gave them assurance that they will definitely get in due course.
We need to be accurate to the extent possible.
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan and Sri Aurobindo:
Talks No. 164:
Devotee: The Bible says that the human soul may be lost.
Maharshi: The 'I-thought' is the ego and that is lost. The real 'I' is "I AM THAT I AM".
Devotee: There is conflict in the teachings of Aurobindo and of the Mother.
Maharshi: First surrender the Self and then harmonize the conflicts.
Devotee: What is Renunciation?
Maharshi: Giving up of the ego.
Devote: Is it no giving up posessions?
Maharshi: The possessor too.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Sri Aurobindo:
Talks No. 159:
Mr. Cohen desired to know if trance is a sine qua non for the Self Realization?
Maharshi: You are always in the Self. Now, in trance, in deep sleep, in Realization. If you lose hold of the Self and identify yourself with the body or the mind, these states appear to overtake over, and it also looks like a blank in trance, etc., where as you are the Self and ever present.
Devotee: Sri Aurobindo says that the Light which resides in the head must be brought down to the heart below.
Maharshi: Is not the Self already in the Heart? How can the all pervading Self be taken from one place to another?
Devotee: Is a Karma yogi or a Bhakta too subject to trance?
Maharshi: When you concentrate on pone point, you merge in it, and this merging is called trance. The other features disappear and the Self alone remains over. The karmi and the bhakta also must experience the same.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Sri Aurobindo:
Talks No. 183:
A gentleman from Bombay asked: "I asked Mother in Sri Aurobindo Ashram the following question: "I keep my mind blank, without thoughts arising so that God might show Himself in His true Being. I do not perceive anything."
The reply to this effect was: "The attitude is right. The Power will come down from the above. It is a direct experience."
So he asked the Maharshi what further he should do.
Maharshi: Be What You Are. There is nothing to come down or become manifest. All that is needful is to lose the ego. That what is, is always there. Even now you are That. You are not apart from It. The blank is seen by you. You are there to see the blank. What do you wait for? The thought 'I have not seen', the expectation to see and the desire of getting something, are all the working of the ego. You have fallen into the snares of the ego. The ego says all these and not You. Be Yourself and nothing more!
****
R.subramanian,
"Sri Aurobindo says that the Light which resides in the head must be brought down to the heart below."
That is not what sri Aurobindo said.These devotees read something and carry that 'news' to Sri Bhagavan.He can only respond to what the questioner asked.
I did read that Balarama reddy had carried a letter from Sri Aurobindo and Sri Bhagavan read it.That is a different story.Again,we have to depend on Balarama Reddy's version!
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan and Sri Aurobindo:
Talks No. 201:
Two Parsi ladies had been asking some questions....They further asked for Maharshi's opinion of Sri Aurobindo's Yoga and his claim to have probed beyond the experiences of the Vedic Rishis and the Mother's opinion of the fitness of her disciples to begin with the realization of the Upanishadic Rishis.
Maharshi: Aurobindo advises complete surrender. Let us do that first and await results, and discuss further, if need be afterwards and not now. There is no use of discussing transcendental experiences by those who limitations are not divested. Learn what surrender is. It is to merge in the Source of the ego. The ego is surrendered to the Self. Everything is dear to us because of love of the Self. The Self is that to which we surrender our ego and let the Supreme Power i.e. the Self, do what it pleases. The ego is already the Self's. We have no rights over the ego, even as it is. However, supposing that we had, we must surrender them.
Devotee: What about bringing down divine consciousness from the above?
Maharshi: As if the same is not already in the Heart? 'O Arjuna, I am in the expanse of the Heart,' says Sri Krishna. 'He who is in the Sun, is also in the man', says a mantra in the Upanishads. 'The Kingdom of God is within', says the Bible. All are thus agreed that God is within. What is to be brought down? From where? Who is to bring what, and why?
Realization is only the removal of obstacles to the recognition of the eternal, immanent Reality. Reality is. It need not be taken from place to place.
Devotee: What about Aurobindo's claim to start from Self Realization and develop further?
Maharshi: Let us first realize and then see.
The Maharshi began to speak of similar theories. The Visishtadvatins say that the Self is first realized and the realized individual soul is surrendered to the Universal Soul. Only then is it complete. The part is given up to the whole. That is liberation and sayujya union. Simple Self Realization stops at isolating the pure Self, says Visistadvaitins.
The Siddhas says that the one who leaves his body behind as a corpse cannot attain mukti. They are reborn. Only those whose bodies dissolve in space, in light or away from sight, attain liberation. The Advaitins of Sankara's school stop
short of Self Realization and this is not the end, the siddhas say.
There are also others who extol their own pet theories as the best.
e.g., late Venkatasami Rao of Kumbakonam, Brahmananda Yogi of Cuddappah etc.,
The fact is: There is Reality. It is not affected by any discussions. Let us abide as Reality and not engage is futile discussions as to its nature, etc.,
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Sri Aurobindo:
Talks No. 504:
A visitor asked Sri Bhagavan about the "over mind" and "super mind", 'the Psychic', 'the Divine' of Sri
Aurobindo's terminology.
Maharshi: Realize the Self or the Divine first. All these differences will disappear.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Sri Aurobindo:
Talks No. 507:
........
........
Devotee: Mahatma also admits equality...
Maharshi: Gandhiji is not here.
Devotee: Aurobindo does not approve of castes. Do you approve of them?
Maharshi: As for Aurobindo, you ask him. As for my opinion, how does it matter to you? How will it be of any use to you? Have you got any opinion on the matter? That alone will affect you, not the opinion of others.
Devotee: I do not approve of the caste system. Mahatma's opinion is valuable as a guidance. I want your blessings in my attempts.
Maharshi: Mahatma has told you to seek and find your Self. You will not do it but require his blessings.
Devotee: I am trying to follow the instructions. But caste distinction is painful. It must go.
Maharshi: To whom does it cause pain?
Devotee: To the members of the society....
Maharshi: It is you who say it. There are countries where there are no such distinctions of caste. Are they free from trouble. There are wars, internecine struggle etc., Why do you not remedy the evils there?
Devotee: There are troubles here also.
Maharshi: Troubles are always there. There are not only human beings, but also animals, plants etc., The state of affairs cannot be helped.
Devotee: We do not mind the animals, etc., at present.
Maharshi: Why not? If they could speak they would claim equality with you and dispute your claims no less vigorously than human beings.
Devotee: But we cannot help it. It is God's work.
Maharshi: If that is God's work when the other part is your work, is that so?
Devotee: It is man made distinction.
Maharshi: You need not notice these distinctions. There is diversity in the world. A unity runs through the
diversity. The Self is the same in all. There is no difference in spirit. All the differences are external and superficial. You find out the Unity and be happy.
......
Devotee: I do not object to the differences. But the claims of superiority are wrong.
Maharshi: There are differences in the limbs of one's body. When the hand touches the foot, the hand is not defiled. Each limb performs its function. Why do you object to the differences?
Devotee: The people feel the injustice of caste distinction. It must be rooted out.
Maharshi: You can individually arrive at the state where such distinction are not perceived by you and be happy. How can you hope to reform the world? Even if you try, you cannot succeed. Ganapati Muni offered to initiate mantras to Harijans and make Brahmins of them. But Harijans did not come forward to accept the offer. That shows that they are themselves afflicted
by an inferiority complex. Remove that complex first before you try to reform others.
*****
salutations to all:
Subramanian/Ravi/Others:
["...Swami Vivekananda was afraid that he was losing himself though he had the experience of the Infinite. Some people welcome it. Wolter Kiers for example in the case of Sri Bhagavan..."]
wonder who wouldn't be filled with "fear"??? if a simple domestic cat swishes through all of a sudden, one is overcome with tremulous fright, isn't it? (whether it lasts for an instant or not is secondary here!); what to talk of the experience you were talking about? i don't know what wolter kiers experienced, but if he says he 'gladly welcomed it', then i'd suspect a shade of fakery in it! :-)
as regards all other recorded correspondences (talks/ letters/ memoirs/ reminiscences etc. - kathAmrta is an exception, those who have read it will know 'why'!), notwithstanding my overwhelming respects to them, it's always better to keep one's discerning hat while reading these reported conversations. these are definitively not in the same class as bhagavAn's original writings (uLLadhu nArpadhu, upadEsa undhiyAr etc.), which can be taken at face value with no doubts whatsoever. the degree of caution one may have to exercise is only much more when it pertains to bhagavAn responding to the questioner on issues connected to other masters' teachings (aurobindo, vivekAnanda etc.)!
liked what ravi had once said - 'admiration is not devotion'. when it comes to bhagavAn or thAkur, while it's inconceivable for me to spot anything like a 'flaw' in what they say (i wouldn't have the guts to say it in the first place) :-), yet if indeed there does appear one such to me, then if not thunder like nakkIrar, at least i also wouldn't mind adding a whimper resembling "neRRi kaN thirandhAlum kuRRam kuRRamE" :-)))
Friends,
An excerpt from Sri Aurobindo's 'Letters on Yoga'-These were letters written to his disciples who sought his guidance/clarification in sadhana:
"The real “I” – if you want to use that word – is not “clear individual,” that is, a clear-cut limited separative ego; it is as wide as the universe and wider and can contain the universe in itself, but that is not the Ahankar, it is the Atman.
Consciousness is a fundamental thing, the fundamental thing in existence – it is the energy, the motion, the movement of consciousness that creates the universe and all that is in it – not only the macrocosm but the microcosm is nothing but consciousness arranging itself. For instance, when consciousness in its movement or rather a certain stress of movement forgets itself in the
action it becomes an apparently “unconscious” energy; when it forgets itself in the form it becomes the electron, the atom, the material object. In reality it is still consciousness that works in the energy and determines the form and the evolution of form. When it wants to liberate itself, slowly, evolutionarily, out of Matter, but still in the form, it emerges as life, as animal, as man and it can go on evolving itself still farther out of its involution and become something more than mere man. If you can grasp that, then it ought not to be difficult to see further that it can subjectively formulate itself as a physical, a vital, a mental, a psychic consciousness – all these are present in man, but as they are all mixed up together in the external consciousness with their real status behind in the inner being, one can only become fully aware of them by releasing the original limiting stress of the consciousness which makes us live in our external being and become awake and centred within in the inner being. As the consciousness in us, by its external concentration or stress, has to put all these things behind – behind a wall or veil, it has to break down the wall or veil and get back in its stress into these inner parts of existence – that is what we call living within; then our external being seems to us something small and superficial, we are or can become aware of the large and rich and inexhaustible kingdom within. So also consciousness in us has drawn a lid or covering or whatever one likes to call it between the lower planes of mind, life, body supported by the psychic and the higher planes which contain the spiritual kingdoms where the self is always free and limitless, and it can break or open the lid or covering and ascend there and become the Self free and wide and luminous or else bring down the influence, reflection, finally even the presence and power of the higher consciousness into the lower nature.
continued...
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on Consciousness continued...
"Now that is what consciousness is – it is not composed of parts, it is fundamental to being and itself formulates any parts it chooses to manifest – developing them from above downward by a progressive coming down from spiritual levels towards involution in Matter or formulating them in an upward working in the front by what we call evolution. If it chooses to work in you through the sense of ego, you think that it is the clear-cut individual “I” that does everything – if it begins to release itself from that limited working, you begin to expand your sense of “I” till it bursts into infinity and no longer exists or you shed it and flower into spiritual wideness. Of course, this is not what is spoken of in modern materialistic thought as consciousness, because that thought is governed by science and sees consciousness only as a phenomenon that emerges out of inconscient Matter and consists of certain reactions of the system to outward things. But that is a phenomenon of consciousness, it is not consciousness itself, it is even only a very small part of the possible phenomenon of consciousness and can give no clue to Consciousness the Reality which is of the very essence of existence.
That is all at present. You will have to fix yourself in that – for it is fundamental – before it can be useful to go any further."
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Dear S.,
We are all posting only recorded conversations and some original works of Sri Bhagavan. David Himself has said Talks is one record where Sri Bhagavan was able to verify the veracity, in full, unlike Day by Day and Letters. As regards Muruganar's works, Guru Vachaka Kovai was completely seen, verified and even corrected and given back with some of His own verses. Aurobindo's writings, I do not know who got them corrected with Aurobindo or whether he himself wrote such massive volumes. As regards Sri Ramakrishna, it was M, who recorded and here again, whether any one corrected them, I am not sure.
In the above context, how will you discern it with your discerning hat or cap? I do not know. All these writings are at least 50+ years old. Now I do not know what you mean by discerning look into the veracity and open your eye in the forehead if they are not okay.
Tell me how will you do that?
Take some simple example. Sri Sankara's Siva Manasa Pooja, a song with 8 stanzas - is with atlest 8 pada-pedhas, i.e different usages
of words or phrases. Only Sankara
knows what is the correct phrase in each verse.
The best thing is to keep off the discerning hat and trust the recordings and other writings in total faith. Otherwise one need not read them at all. Nobody compels you to read them.
Even in TirukuraL, which is 2000+ years old, there are many corrections as mentioned by Manakudavar and Parimelazhagar. What to do? We have to trust one version and proceed further.
In Skanda Puranam, there is a verse
where the words Thigazh Dasa Kara appear. This means shining ten hands (Ganesa). This, for the poetic fine-tuning, was combined to Thigadakchakkara, to fit in to edugai and monai. The other poets stopped the composer and said
this combined word is wrong as per Tolkappiyar's sandhi-vidhi, i.e combining words. The composer said that Lord Muruga approved it. They did not believe in even that. Then Muruga came in his dream and said:
Please pick up Veera Chozhiyam another grammar book, show it to the disputants. There, this particular combination of words into one word has been approved and even shown as an example!
Now, we cannot ask Sri Bhagavan or Sri Ramakrishna or Sri Aurobindo to come in our dreams and guide us as to what is correct and what is incorrect. We have to simply trust the recordings and works. There is no chance to use the third eye at all. Many things go on the basis of faith and trust in life. One's father is known to the son only through his mother. The son has to trust mother. He cannot ask for DNA TEST.
****
R.Subramanian/s/Friends,
"One's father is known to the son only through his mother."
You have asked whether anyone checked what 'M' had written.
The Holy Mother, being very much pleased to hear parts of the diary read to her in Bengali, wrote to M.: "When I heard the Kathāmrita, (Bengali name of the book) I felt as if it was he, theMaster, who was saying all that."
The following are for your consideration.
1.M wrote it in Bengali and with stenographic precision,using the exact words that Sri Ramakrishna used.This has been the unanimous
view of all those who had been part of the scenes and who have seen Sri Ramakrishna and moved with him.
2.You will find Sri Ramakrishna repeating many of his sayings and these were exactly captured without any censoring.We even find Sri Ramakrishna telling 'm"to clean his tongue.'M' did not omit even this trivial detail because he felt that no word of his master should be left out.If not anything ,it will help to recollect that day's events and keep the memory fresh with the master's presence for ever.
3.Even as a boy of about thirteen, while he was a student in the 3rd class of the Hare School, he was in the habit of keeping a diary. "Today on rising," he wrote inhis diary, "I greeted my father and mother, prostrating on the ground before them".At another place he wrote, "Today, while on my way to school, Ivisited, as usual, the temples of Kāli, the Mother at Tharitharia, and of Mother Sitala, and paid my obeisance tothem." About twenty-five years after, when he met the Great Master in the spring of 1882, it was the sameinstinct of a born diary-writer that made him begin his book, 'unique in the literature of hagiography', with thememorable words: "When hearing the name of Hari or Rāma once, you shed tears and your hair stands on end,then you may know for certain that you do not have to perform devotions such as Sandhya any more."
4.Sri Ramakrishna knew that he was maintaining this diary and used to call him over and repeat what all he told the others in his absence,or he sent someone to call 'M' whenever he felt that 'M' needs to be there and not miss anything!When Ramachandra Datta and Tarak(Swami Shivananda)started keeping diary,Sri Ramakrishna had expressly told them not to maintain such records.Ramachandra datta had infact published the 'sayings of Sri Ramakrishna' in the lifetime of the Master but the Master asked him to desist from doing so.
continued.......
5.Sri Ramakrishna told 'M':" Mother has told me that you have to do a little of Her work you will haveto teach Bhagavata, the word of God to humanity. The Mother keeps a Bhagavata Pandit with a bondage in theworld!"
6.Besides undergoing spiritual disciplines at the feet of the Master, M. used to go to holy places during the Master's life-time itself and afterwards too as a part of his Sādhanā. He was one of the earliest of the disciples to visitKamarpukur, the birthplace of the Master, in the latter's life-time itself; for he wished to practise contemplation onthe Master's early life in its true original setting. His experience there is described as follows by SwamiNityatmananda: "By the grace of the Master, he saw the entire Kamarpukur as a holy place bathed in an effulgentLight. Trees and creepers, beasts and birds and men all were made of effulgence. So he prostrated to all on theroad. He saw a torn cat, which appeared to him luminous with the Light of Consciousness. Immediately he fell tothe ground and saluted it".
7.Swami Vivekananda had also read the Kathamrita(not all the volumes)and was overjoyed.He wrote to 'M':
It is indeed wonderful. The move is quite original,and never was the life of a Great Teacher brought before the public untarnished by the writer's mind, as you aredoing. The language also is beyond all praise, so fresh, so pointed, and withal so plain and easy. I cannot expressin adequate terms how I have enjoyed them. I am really in a transport when I read them. Strange, isn't it? OurTeacher and Lord was so original, and each one of us will have to be original or nothing. I now understand whynone of us attempted His life before. It has been reserved for you, this great work. He is with you evidently."
continued....
salutations to all:
Subramanian:
["...David Himself has said Talks is one record where Sri Bhagavan was able to verify the veracity, in full...Now I do not know what you mean by discerning look into the veracity and open your eye in the forehead if they are not okay...Now I do not know what you mean by discerning look into the veracity and open your eye in the forehead if they are not okay...Now, we cannot ask Sri Bhagavan or Sri Ramakrishna or Sri Aurobindo to come in our dreams and guide us... He cannot ask for DNA TEST..."]
from your emotionally surcharged comment, guess you misunderstood me! i never said anything about opening 'my' third eye (i didn't know i had one!!!) :-). all i'd meant by a 'discerning hat' was to exercise some discretion in taking verbatim recorded conversations/ correspondences, that's all. i fail to understand what's wrong in that! when & where did david say "Talks is one record where Sri Bhagavan was able to verify in full"? i don't know what you meant by david "Himself" - sounds like god 'himself'!!! :-) with all respects to david, can't attach the emphasising "Himself" to him (in any case, david hasn't seen & lived with bhagavAn, and if i'm talking of being careful even in the writings of those who lived with bhagavAn, i don't have to add more...) :-)
coming to 'faith & trust', i admit i understand very little of this so-called 'faith' but i can't comprehend why should one read anything with "total faith"? one neither has to read to 'find fault' nor to 'fall overboard'! i respect sankara for his brilliant expositions, not because of the paraphernalia that surrounds him. i may not be worth the dust of his feet but that doesn't mean i'm never going to spare a thought on what he says! :-) it's only because the heard/ written word, be it the vEda or the purANa, is prone to alterations in the efflux of time that a bhagavAn or thAkur come among us (in vindication of 'sambhavAmi yugE yugE'?), isn't it?
you say 'can we ask them to come & guide us now in a 'dream'?' why not? of course, yes!!! if your so-called 'faith' is strong enough, it must happen, shouldn't it? further, why restrict it to a dream? why not in 'jAgrata'? what worth is that 'faith' which can't compel them to come in your presence? otherwise what's the difference between you, a man of faith, with me, a non-believer? :-)
the point is not whether the son can ask for a DNA test, but rather it's feasibility if he wishes to! yes, if i want i can; the reason i don't is because i know from 'experience', not faith, that i love my mother who brought me up with overflowing love & care, and that that love wouldn't change whether she is my DNA certified mother or not! :-) what experience have you of your 'god' save & except your 'imagination'? have you lived with him? have you spoken to him? have you played with him? have you tasted the bliss first-hand? if none of these, then which 'faith' are you advocating with absolute certainty?
'the remark of a child is to be accepted if it's in accordance with reason, but the remark of even brahma himself is to be rejected like a piece of straw if not in accord with reason' (not me, so says the yoga-vAshiShTha) :-)
R.Subramanian/s/Friends,
Swami Nityatmananda was trained by 'M' to keep a similiar diary and this was brought out as a series of 15 volumes or so-recording conversations of M with other devotees.Here is an excerpt where M is proof reading he Kathamrita:
"M. is reading the proofs while Jagabandhu is holding the copy. In between he converses. Some bhaktas are coming, while the others leave. During the conversation, the subject
of three kinds of evidences of Thakur’s words comes up. So many people write about Thakur. Among these writings, how far each is valuable is commented upon.
M. (to Antevasi) – The first class of evidence is that which is recorded by the writer on the same day after seeing with his own eyes, and hearing with his own ears what
Thakur said or did. The second class is that which is recorded much later though it was heard and seen by the author himself. And the third class is that which was
collected by hearing from others. Along with it there is another class of evidence which one comes across at times. It can be termed as fourth class of evidence. The writer
has mixed up what he himselfWhat the writer himself heard and saw, but did not write it immediately, he has mixed it up with what he heard from somebody else.
M. (to Antevasi) – The Kathamrita is the first class evidence. What I saw Thakur doing with my own eyes and what great sayings I heard from my own ears, I recorded
them in my diary on the same day on returning home. Sometimes I wrote for days together, for there were long conversations on some particular days. I have recorded all
these divine sights and divine words in the Kathamrita. In the main part of the book, I was present in all the scenes narrated therein.
Antevasi – The reminiscences of Ashwini Dutt and the story of Baranagar Math etc. have also found a place in the Kathamrita.
M. – Not in the main text. They are written in the appendices. In the main book, there are all such direct evidences that I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own
ears.
"It is very valuable for the lawyers. They are cultured men, you see. Haven’t you seen what Ashwini Dutt has written? He says, ‘Am I so fortunate as M. that I could write
about Thakur giving the day of the week, the date and the position of the stars?’ Before writing about Thakur he has offered his apology by saying so. Please bring the
Kathamrita."
M. reads out what Ashwini Dutt, a devotee of God and a patriot, has written about Thakur. It forms the appendix to part I of the Kathamrita.
M. (to Jagabandhu) – Just hear what he says. He writes, ‘But I have not come with a fortune such as M. that I should be able to write the day, the date and the time of the
darshan of his holy feet and record exactly all that fell from his blessed lips. I am writing as far as I can remember. It is possible that I may assign the talk of one day to
some other day. Besides, I have forgotten so much.’
A Certain Bhakta – Swami Bhumananda said, ‘Master Mahashay has given three kinds of evidences to dishonour Sarat Maharaj’s Lila Prasanga (Sri Ramakrishna the
Great Master).’
M. (wonder-struck and sad) – What is this? How does he know why it was written? I don’t accept what he says. Let him say what he wants. Who can stop him?
Continued....
Dear S.,
I mentioned David because he had worked in Asramam Archives and he had seen many manuscripts in the Archives, where there were some corrections from Sri Bhagavan. Further, David himself said once that Talks is one of the most authentic record. I have to ask him only whether my memory is correct.
You are mentioning faith and total faith. Is there any difference? Faith must be either total or not there at all.
No doubt that my post was emotional because if we try to discern every work connected with every saint or sage, then we will end up only with
Aathi Choodi and KonRai Vendhan. These are simple one or two line advices but here again which Avviayar wrote it (there are several Avvaiyars in Tamizh literature) is to be discerned.
****
R.Subramanian/s/Friends,
'M' on Kathamrita continued....
M. (to a devotee) – No other Aavatara had [a record] like this. It is not in the world history .
"Swami Vivekananda knew it. He wrote to me, ‘The move is quite original and never was the life of a great teacher brought before the public untarnished by the writer’s
mind as you are doing.’
"The other books which are coming out are all confusing because they contain second and third class evidences.
"This book is the first record in the world containing such an account of the conversations and life of an avatara.
"The coming out of the Kathamrita has done another big good. In future, whosoever writes a diary or a book shall be greatly benefited by knowing about these three classes
of evidences. While writing on any subject, they will be very careful while offering their opinion on it.
"Since ‘the Kathamrita’ has been written on the basis of first class evidence, the lawyers, the scientists and then the wWesterners will be able to appreciate the real value
of this book."
M. (to Antevasi) – Just read the page where these three classes of evidences are talked about.
Antevasi (reads) – (The main portions are).
"First — Direct and recorded on the same day... this kind of version is obtained by direct seeing and hearing — along with the year, the date, the day of the week and the
lunar date.
"Second — Direct but unrecorded at the time of the Master... this kind of version is also very good. The record of the other avataras is generally of this kind..... Herein
there is a greater possibility of mistakes than what is recorded immediately.
"Third — Hearsay and unrecorded at the time of the Master... what one hears about the life from the devotees, all belongs to the third class.
"At the time of the writing Sri Sri Kathamrita M. relied on the first class evidence…"
M. – All these volumes (of the Kathamrita) were written after so much of seeing and hearing. I had to read the Law of Evidence. They do not know it. If there is a slight
mistake in the evidence the whole value of it goes down.
M. (to Antevasi) – Haven’t you read the Law of Evidence, and the Criminal Procedure Code?
Antevasi – Yes Sir, I have read them the way one studies in colleges. I read in broad outlines.
M. – You have seen it. A slight mistake is detected in the evidence and it almost spoils the whole case. The lawyer says to the judge, ‘My Lord, he is not reliable.’
"The force that direct evidence has is not there in what one has heard from somebody. That is why, the judge asks, ‘Did you see it yourself? By seeing and hearing oneself
there is a greater force. And if one says, ‘I have heard it so,’ it has no force.
"I visited the court so often. By seeing and hearing all this I have arrived on this conclusion. (Laughing) W.C. Bannerji once said, ‘My Lord, he is an English speaking
witness.’ Such persons enjoy more respect. They are very reliable because when it goes into the hands of a translator some difference creeps in. It is not exactly the same."
-----------------------------------
So dear friends the Kathamrita is indeed in a different league altogether compared to other Reminiscences or Record of Talks.
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Okay you have told about Sri Ramakrishna's Kathamrutha. What about Aurobindo's massive writings? Again all PeriyavaaL's 'writings' were written by Bharanitharan or Ra. Ganapati. Are they all verified by PeriyavaaL? Again what about Tayumanavar's works? Were they written by the saint himself or written later by devotees through karna parampara method of hearing?
****
R.Subramanian,
"What about Aurobindo's massive writings? "
Have you read the life of Sri aurobindo,how after coming to India ,he took up job as a profesor in college(Baroda).His entire salary(most of it if ot all)went towards the purchase of crates and crates of Books-He learnt sanskrit and devoured all that he could lay hands on!This by itself a superhuman effort because he did not even know any other language other than English(and possibly Latin as well).This is a long inspiring story and it may not be possible to cover it here.
As for your question,all of sri Aurobindo's writings were by him when he brought out a magazine called 'Arya' which he single handedly filled!The Synthesis of Yoga ,The Life Divine,The Secret of The Vedas-all marvellous works full of deepest spiritual and Mystical insight.Sri Aurobindo,I would say is an adventurer in the Spiritual Realm.
The 'Letters on Yoga' are also written by him and the actual letters are also preserved.
-----------------------------------
You have asked about Ra Ganapathy and the 'Deivathin Kural'-These are by the authors and are not on the same level as the 'Kathamrita' (I am not refering to the content but the Transcript).Ra Ganapathy has taken pains to use the words used by Mahaperiyava in Tamil,English or Sanskrit.There are talks of Periyava available and some of these can be verified.
Yet,I will say that Ra Ganapathi is quite dependable for sheer content fidelity.
-----------------------------------
Now What is that you are not 'Okay' with!
Namaskar.
Subramaniam,
Here are some of David's own words on the Talks from a previous post "The authenticity of Bhagavans writings and dialogues".
http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2008/05/authenticity-of-bhagavans-writings-and.html
*************************
I should like to put the spotlight now on Talks With Sri Ramana Maharshi, the biggest published collection of dialogues with Bhagavan. The first thing to note is that Bhagavan never checked and revised this book in the way that he did with Guru Vachaka Kovai or the other books of conversations that appeared during his lifetime. A portion of the original manuscript, recorded by Munagala Venkataramiah in the 1930s, still exists. There are various editing and correction marks in it done by devotees of that era, but none of the marks is by Bhagavan. Annamalai Swami and Sadhu Om both told me that they saw Bhagavan reading parts of the manuscript in the hall, but at no point did he make any attempt to edit or change what was there.
...
Chadwick stresses that ‘we may be sure that here [in Talks] we have the exact teaching of the Master’. I am not so convinced, and the reason I say this is that there is one excellent bench mark against which the accuracy of Talks can be measured. In 1936 Bhagavan gave a deposition in a court case. This took place in the hall, and devotees were allowed to attend. The court stenographer made a verbatim transcript of everything Bhagavan said, while Munagala Venkataramiah made notes that he later included in Talks. The full dialogue can be found on my website in the article entitled Bhagavan the Atiasrami. I will just give a couple of extracts from it to illustrate the point I am trying to make.
...
Having said all this, I have to say that Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi is one of my favourite books of Bhagavan’s teaching. One can feel the power of Bhagavan’s words and teachings on every page. It may not be exactly what Bhagavan said, but his teachings are simple and clear enough to withstand the occasional embellishment.
******************************
Regards,
Ram
--
Subramanian (and anyone else who is interested)
I aired my views on the reliability of Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi and other records of Bhagavan's teachings in a 2008 post:
http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2008/05/authenticity-of-bhagavans-writings-and.html
Dear Ramprax and David,
Thanks for the further light on the
authenticity of Talks. Today all the
or most of the comments from our other friends, on my posts, are only about Talks, particularly what Sri Bhagavan had said about Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo.
*******
salutations to all:
Subramanian:
sir, from your reply to Ramprax one doesn't know if you 'read' the extracts Ramprax had copied from david's may 2008 post, a couple of lines from which are reproduced below (david's words):
["...The first thing to note is that Bhagavan never checked and revised this book in the way that he did with Guru Vachaka Kovai or the other books of conversations that appeared during his lifetime... There are various editing and correction marks in it done by devotees of that era, but none of the marks is by Bhagavan. ..."]
does this not contradict what you were claiming earlier?
s/Subramanian/Friends,
"yet if indeed there does appear one such to me, then if not thunder like nakkIrar, at least i also wouldn't mind adding a whimper resembling "neRRi kaN thirandhAlum kuRRam kuRRamE"
In the busy keyboard clicks and copy & paste exchanges,we have not elaborated on this -'Even if thou were to open thine third eye(and were to burn me to ashes),A fault is a fault'.
These were the words of poet nak-kEErar in this wonderful story in ThiruvilaiyAdal purAnam(Divine lila of Lord Siva).The story goes like this(copying from another Blog):
divya chandana digdhaa~Ngii
This name occurs with a variation in the sahasranAma as chandana
drava digdhaa~Ngii and also in some way in
divyagandhaaDhyaa. This name means HER body(Divine Mother) is smeared with a
supreme quality sandalwood paste.
Sandalwood paste is known for its pleasing cooling effect and
divine fragrance. How did it get that power? Most pleasing and
cooling thing which stops the agitation of mind is the bliss of
brahman. The Divine Mother being that, bestows a speck of her quality to
sandalwood by her grace and by smearing on her. It is said that she is divinely fragrant. Her fragrance is not derived from external
perfumes. Instead, things like flowers are fragrant because of
HER fragrance. She bestows that quality to the sandalwood as
well.
In thiruviLaiyaaDal puuraaNam (liilaa-s of Lord shiva) one of the
episode deals with this subject matter.* Poet of the court,
nakkira argues that even in the case of ambaaL the fragrance of
hair is due to repeated application of perfumed oils and
flowers. Shiva who comes disguised as a poet in that episode comes
with a poem which states that the fragrance of hair is
inborn. They both argue and finally the poet who becomes angry reveals himself as Lord Siva threatening to open the 'Third eye' amidst his eyebrows and burn nakkirar to ashes!Nakkirar responds defiantly-'Even if thou were to open thine third eye(and were to burn me to ashes),A fault is a fault'. Lord siva is immensely pleased with his opponent,and
blesses the devotee and appreciates his integrity (for sticking
to what he thought as truth, even when his Lord is in
opposition). kaanchi Mahaperiyaava(who else!) in one of his talks remarks that
bhaskara-raaya is an incarnation of nakkira and still his
original sentiments remained in him. While commenting on one of
the verses of saundaryalahari where Acharya says that ambaaL's
hair is naturally fragrant (here Acharya identifies himself with
shiva), bhaskara raaya comments that it is poetic license and not to
be taken seriously. Based on this MahAperiyaava says that he still
has the sentiments of nakkira.
May we anoint our minds with sweet, cooling fragrant thoughts of
ambaaL(Divine Mother) which will cools its meaningless agitations and bring
peace.
AUM divyachandana digdhaa~Ngyai namaH!
----------------------------------
Likewise our friend 's' hopes to atleast whimper a "neRRi kaN thirandhAlum kuRRam kuRRamE" ala nakkirar ,should he discern(A big if!)any fault in what thAkur or bhagavAn had said.More importantly such disagreement does not in the least detract from one's devotion to them.
Love alone can take that liberty-as Naren and others took with Sri Ramakrishna!Naren even suggested that Sri Ramakrishna'a visions were just Hallucinations!The childlike master who believed Naren immediately rushed to the Divine Mother to ask if it is true!On being assured by the Divine Mother to the contrary ,he came back and told Naren-'You Rascal.I will not take your words for granted any longer'!
Love admits differences and is comfortable with it.
Namaskar.
Dear S.,
I take only the last paragraph of
Ramprax letter, Chadwick's views,
and his statement that "all is pure Gold" (about Talks).
***
Dear S., others
on the discussion about reliability, authenticity, i would like to quote the words of Buddha:
"Believe not because an old book is produced as an authority. Believe not because your father said [you should] believe the same. Believe not because other people like you believe it. Test everything, try everything, and then believe it, and if you find it for the good of many, give it to all."
Nagaraj
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai:
Verse 13, and Verse 1465 of Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai:
CherathiRaNdu tiru venkataramanan
Parac chezhunkaruNai painkadalai
ninnaasai
Theera paruhinee thekkittu myalizhai
Veerath thozhil vella vemmayai
poRkaRuthu
Nera nimirnthaven kannenjathin
meetheRi
Thera theLi monac chencholle
poRkumuRi
Ooran thirukaNNokkothu oLirnthu
perinbam
Vaarap pozhiyai mazhaiyelor
Embaavai.
Prof. K. Swaminathan:
Quench your thirst! Quaff heartily
The vast, deep ocean of His Grace.
Clouds storing it grow thick, dark
and black
And, like cruel Maya
Strike my stone-dry heart. Let the
bright
Word of clear Mouna thunder loud
and let
Your gracious gaze flash the
lightning of wisdom.
Shower on us, maidens, the rain of
your
Bliss supreme, O Venkata-Ramana!
Here the grace of Sri Bhagavan, the wordless Mouna is like monsoon clouds. The wisdom flashes like lightning. The bliss is the rain. All these bring great relief from heat and dryness as well as to Maya, the deluding power that thunders on us.
In Tiruvembavai, Saint Manikkavachagar also gives a metaphor for the clouds and rains.
In Verse 16, the saint poet says: The rain clouds are dark like Uma's form. The lightning is like her slender waist. The thunder is like the tinkling of her anklets in her holy feet. The rainbow that appears between sunshine and rains is like her eyebrows. Her grace is like the rains that removes the heat.
Andal also says in Verse 23 of Tiruppavai, that Narayana is like a lion sleeping (yoga nidra) inside the caves during rainy days. The lion comes out roaring with eyes of the fire's sparks. The lion is blue like kayamboo. He is neela-megham!
****
R.Subramanian/s/Nagaraj/friends,
Wonderful quote from Lord Buddha Nagaraj.
Appropos our friend Subramanian's comments-"Today all the
or most of the comments from our other friends, on my posts, are only about Talks, particularly what Sri Bhagavan had said about Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo." and his further comment "All is Pure Gold(about Talks)"-I have to say that there was not much on Swami Vivekananda or Sri Aurobindo and if at all there was anything worth noting,it only gave the impression that Sri Bhagavan was questioning their maturity or wisdom(particularly Sri Aurobindo).I felt that the comments were more on the Proxy Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo(I mean the questioners themselves)than on Swami Vivekananda or Sri Aurobindo per se.As such it would be misleading to take it as pure Gold.I have responded suitably,I hope to correct such an impression to the few readers here and hope that they would refer to more authentic material readily available to understand facts as they stand.
Ofcourse,I would leave our friend Subramanian to his faith-for whatever helps one is quite serviceable and if one sticks to that sincerely would lead one onwards.
Our friend 's' chips in now and then and makes the point which if we care to listen may help us to see where we are.
Namaskar.
s/Nagaraj/R.Subramanian/Friends,
Faith is in oneself-not in what is outside of oneself.It is not a matter of convenience-To go along with what david says or what Chadwick says-It is not even what going along with what sri Bahagavan
says-It is what one has understood in some deep way-The scent of the Master-as Sri Bhagavan had said-Something we deeply sense is true-yet have not come to grips with it.
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan and Mahatma Gandhi:
Talks No. 125:
The Muslim Professor asked: When I am here my mind is Sattvic; as soon as I turn my back on this, my mind hankers after so many objects.
Maharshi: Are the objects different from you? There can be no objects without the subject.
Devotee: And how shall I know it?
Maharshi: Being That, what do you want to know? Are there two selves for the one to know the other?
Devotee: Again, I repeat, Sir, how to know the truth of all this and experience the same?
Maharshi: There is no gaining of anything new. All that is required is to rid the Self of ignorance. This ignorance is the identification of the Self with non-Self.
.......
.......
The Professor continued:
Before I came here I desired to see you very much. But somehow I could not find an opportunity to do so. In Bangalore, I made up my mind to return to my place. I met Mr. Frydman and others who sent me here. You have dragged me here. My case is like Paul Brunton's in Bombay, when he was dragged here having cancelled his passage home.
I hesitated at first on arrival. I wondered if I would be permitted to approach you and converse with you. My doubts were soon set at rest. I find that all are equal here. You have established an equality among all. I dined with you and others. If I should say so to my people in U.P., they would not believe it. The Brahmins would not drink water with me, nor chew pan with me. But here you have taken me and others like me in your fold. Though Gandhi is striving hard, he cannot bring about such a state of affairs in the country. I am very happy in your presence.
I regard you as God. I consider Sri Krishna to be true God because He has said, "Whomsoever one may worship, the worshipper worships me only and I save him." Whereas all others have said, 'Salvation is though me (meaning himself) only,'
Sri Krishna alone is so broad minded and has spoken like God. You observe the same kind of equality.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Mahatma Gandhi:
Talks No. 282:
Devotee: How can one know whether a particular individual is competent to be a Guru?
Maharshi: By the peace of mind found in his presence and by the sense of respect you feel for him.
Devotee: If the Guru happens to turn out incompetent, what will be the fate of the disciple who has implicit faith in him?
Maharshi: Each one according to his merits.
Devotee: What are you opinions about social reform?
Maharshi: Self reform automatically brings about social reform. Confine yourself to self-reform. Social reform will take care of itself.
Devotee: What is your opinion about
Gandhiji's Harijan movement?
Maharshi: As him.
Devotee: Is it necessary to take bath if we touch dead bodies?
Maharshi: The body is a corpse. So long as one is in contact with it one must bathe in the waters of the Self.
Devotee: If the advaita is final, why did Madhvacharya teach dvaita?
Maharshi: Is your Self dvaita or advaita? All systems agree on the Self-surrender. Attain it first, then there will be time to judge whose view is right or otherwise.
Devotee: Why do you not preach to the people to set them on the right path?
Maharshi: You have already decided by yourself that I do not preach. Do you know who I am and what preaching is?
Devotee: Is the shaving of widows among Brahmins not cruel?
Maharshi: This may be asked of Dharma Sastris or reformers. Reform yourself first and let us then see about the rest.
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Mahatma Gandhi:
Talks No. 491:
Mr. Kishorelal Mashruwala, President,
Gandhi Seva Sangh, asked:
How is brahmacharya to be practiced in order that it may be successfully lived up to?
Maharshi: It is a matter of will power. Sattvic food, prayers etc., are useful aids to it.
........
........
Devotee: But all the disciples of a guru are not of the same degree of advancement. There are found lapses in a few cases. Who is responsible for such lapses?
Maharshi: There is no connection between Self Realization and individual predispositions (samskaras). It is not always possible to live up to the idea of the Guru.
Devotee: Do not passions affect Realization?
Maharshi: The attempt to cleanse oneself will be automatic.
Devotee: Is it not necessary to wash off all impurities before Realization?
Maharshi: Jnana will wash them clean.
Devotee: Gandhiji is often perplexed finding his intimate disciples going wrong. He wonders how it could happen and thinks that it is due his own defects. Is it so?
Maharshi: (Sri Bhagavan smiled and answered after a minutes) Gandhiji struggled so long to perfect himself. All others will be right in due course.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Mahatma Gandhi:
Talks No. 505:
Babu Rajendra Prasad said: I have come here with Mahatma Gandhiji's permission and I must return to him. Can Sri Bhagavan give me any message for him?
Maharshi: Adhyatma Sakti is working within him and leading him on. That is enough. What more is necessary?
****
Sri Bhagavan and Mahatma Gandhi:
Talks No. 507:
An Arya Samajist from Bangalore came with a companion to visit the Maharshi.
......
......
Devotee: Brahman is equal to all. There cannot be any distinction there. Caste distinction is against the highest principle.
Maharshi: Why do you drag in Brahman? He has not grievances. Let him who has grievances pursue the matter.
Devotee: You are a Mahatma. You cannot admit castes. But how do the people here enforce such distinctions?
Maharshi: Did I tell you that I am a Jnani or a Mahatma. You are saying it yourself. Nor did I make a grievance of this caste affair.
Devotee: Paramatma is the same in all.
Maharshi: Why do you bring in all these names? They can take care fo themselves. They do not require your help.
Devotee: Mahatma Gandhi also admits eqauality....
Maharshi: Gandhi is not here.
.......
.......
Devotee: I do not approve of caste system. Mahatma's opinion is valuable as a guidance. I want your blessings in my attempts.
Maharshi: Mahatma has told you to seek and find your Self. You will not do it but require his blessings.
*****
Friends,
Wish to share this talk of Sri Chinmoy,a disciple of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother:
My Visit to Sri Ramanasramam
Sri Chinmoy's talk at the New York Arunachala Ashrama
on September 5th, 1999
In June this year I was in India for a few days to visit my brother who
lives at the Sri Aurobindo Ashram in Pondicherry. On June 9th, I
decided to go to Ramana Maharshi's Ashram, which is only two and a half
hours away. This was my fourth visit. I went there in 1956, 1958 and
again fifteen years ago.
The first thing to greet me when I arrived was a peacock. The peacock(It has been my experience on several trips as well-I cannot dismiss Ganapathi muni's vison of sri Bhagavan as Lord Subrhamanya-Ravi)
was so beautiful. Then I started moving around the Ashram, here and
there, taking video and photographs. The entire Ashram was full of
peace, peace, peace.
I entered the main meditation hall. The statue of Sri Ramana Maharshi
is most sacred. When I first saw this statue of Ramana garlanded in
1956, I felt Ramana Maharshi's living presence inside the statue. This
time also, this particular statue was absolutely living. Unfortunately,
because of the condition of my knee, I was able to go around the statue
only once. Then I sat down to meditate. The atmosphere inside the
meditation hall was so sublime.
Afterwards, I wanted to go to the cave where Maharshi actually
meditated when he arrived at Arunachala. I was told that it was a
forty-five minute walk and I could not walk at all. When I went there
15 years ago, I saw the cave and I had a very good experience. But this
time it was impossible.
I decided to go and ask the President of the Ashram if it was really
such a long walk. The President was not there, but the Vice-President
was available. I entered into his office and we began talking and
talking. Mani was curious to know if I had known Dilip. We began our
conversation with Dilip Kumar Roy, the Golden Voice. I knew him in my
adolescent years at the Sri Aurobindo Ashram. So I was able to tell the
Vice-President many stories about Dilipda and my own personal
experiences. He was so pleased to hear them.
cntinued....
Friends,
Sri Chinmoy on his visit to Sri Ramanasramam continued...
"Then our marathon conversation touched on South India's greatest poet,
Subramaniam Bharati, and also the immortal Sanskrit scholar, T.V.
Kapali Shastri, who happened to be my Sanskrit teacher.
The Vice-President was extremely, extremely kind to me. He told me his
name was Mani, but when I asked him his position, he said, "I am
nobody, I am nobody." He was very humble. We spent over an hour
together. He repeatedly requested me to stay the night at the Ashram so
that I could meet the President the following day, but I could not
comply with his loving request.
At one point, Mani asked me, "Was it true that the Mother of the Sri
Aurobindo Ashram watched the light?" [The star that appeared and
floated slowly across the sky at the moment of the Maharshi's
Mahasamadhi].
I said, "It is absolutely true. We were at that time in the playground.
I was one of the captains. I was only twenty or thirty meters away from
the Mother. As soon as we saw the column of light, the Mother
immediately folded her hands and we also folded our hands. We watched
the light. It was like a fireball. Then the radio made the announcement
that Ramana Maharshi had passed on."
Mani was very, very moved when he heard that the Mother had folded her
hands and we all did the same. He was thrilled."
continued...
Friends,
Sri Chinmoy continued....
"As I was taking my leave of Mani, he asked me, "What do you think of
our Ashram?"
I said, "I have been to many spiritual places. I live in America, in
New York. In America, sound is sound, and silence is silence. Here,
around the temple and in the vicinity of Ramana Maharshi's Ashram, I
wish to say that the silence is such a deep silence. But inside the
sound also I feel silence."
Mani looked at me. So I added, by way of explanation, "Sound is sound
and silence is silence. But here at Ramana Maharshi's place, even in
the sound, I feel such peace, such joy. I see men and women passing by,
and I see such peace in their faces. There is so much peace. Here in
sound also I feel silence." Then he was very, very happy.
On my way back to Pondicherry in the taxi my soul was swimming and
swimming in the sea of ecstasy. That is when I had the inspiration to
write my song in Bengali about Ramana Maharshi. I translated it into
English upon my return to New York."
continued....
Friends,
Sri Chinmoy continued...
In July, I had the blessingful opportunity to speak to Mani's brother,
Sundaram, on the phone. The President and I had a very illumining
conversation about Avatars. I was telling him that each human being is
a God-representative, while Avatars like Maharshi Ramana are the direct
representatives, supreme representatives, of the Absolute Supreme. We
are trying to follow in the footsteps of these mightiest, giant souls
who came to earth and whose consciousness is still here on earth and
will forever remain here to illumine the world and elevate the
consciousness of the world.
My heart is all gratitude to this mightiest soul, Maharshi Ramana. I
also wish to offer my deepest gratitude to my esteemed Brother-Friends,
Sundaram and Mani, who are now shouldering the responsibility of
Maharshi's Ashram.
I am so fortunate to be here with you today on the blessingful
anniversary of the Maharshi's arrival at Arunachala and for that I
offer my heartfelt gratitude to the genuinely aspiring soul, Dennis,
and to all the members of this sacred Ashram.
The Poem composed by Chinmoy:
O Great Sage Ramana
A Compassion-Eye, a time immemorial Dream—-
Great Sage Ramana!
The destruction-illumination of the little "i"
And
The perfection-manifestation of the big "I"
In you we have found.
You are the Supreme Utterance
Of the Land of Immortality.
In one Form you are the Darling, King and Light
Of Arunachala.
You embody the Supreme Satisfaction
Of earth and Heaven."
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan and Mahatma Gandhi:
Talks No. 521:
Some Congressmen handed over the following questions to the Maharshi:
1. How long is India destined to suffer bondage?
2. Have not the sons of India made enough sacrifice for her liberation?
3. Will India get freedom during Mahatma Gandhi's lifetime?
The above questions were not answered categorically. Sri Bhagavan simply remarked:
Gandhiji has surrendered himself to the Divine and works accordingly with no self interest. He does not concern himself with the results but accepts them as they turn up. That must be the attitude of national workers.
Q: Will the work be crowned with success?
Maharshi: This question arises because the questioner has not surrendered himself.
Q: Should we not think of and work for the welfare of the country?
Maharshi: First take care of yourself and the rest will naturally follow.
Q: I am not speaking individually but for the country.
Maharshi: First surrender and see. The doubts arise because of the absence of surrender. Acquire strength by surrender and then your surroundings will be found to have improved to the degree of strength acquired by you.
Q: Should we not know if our actions will be worthwhile?
Maharshi: Follow the example of Gandhiji in the work for the national cause. Surrender is the word.
****
Sri Bhagavan and J. Krishnamurti:
Talks No. 41:
......
......
Devotee: When loyal to one Master can you respect others?
Maharshi: Guru is only one. He is not physical. So long as there is weakness the support of strength is needed.
Devotee: J. Krishnamurti says, 'No Guru is necessary.'
Maharshi: How did he know it? One can say so after realizing but not before.
Devotee: You have gained this state by great effort. What shall we poor souls do?
Maharshi: We are in our Self. We are not in the world.
Devotee: Heaven and hell - what are they?
Maharshi: You carry heaven and hell with you. Your lust, anger, etc., produce these regions. They are like dreams.
****
Sri Bhagavan and J. Krishnamurti:
Talks No. 239:
Mr. M. Frydman: One imagines things and enjoys them by strength of imagination. Such creations are possible to Brahma, the Creator. Can the same statement apply to His creature, man?
Maharshi: This is also your thought.
Devotee: Krishnamurti says that a man should find out the 'I'. Then
"I' dissolves away, being only a bundle of circumstances. There is nothing behind the 'I'. His teaching seems to be very much like Buddha's.
Maharshi: Yes - yes, beyond expression.
*****
salutations to all:
Subramanian/Others:
["...I take only the last paragraph of Ramprax letter, Chadwick's views..."]
sir, please don't misunderstand me. please don't view what i write as trying to find fault with you (i've enough faults within me to keep me occupied) :-). you are an elder we respect and i'm nobody to prescribe anything. yet, i wonder that even when there is a clear unambiguous situation, why is it that it's so difficult for us to simply admit with dignity 'yes, i was wrong'. though it's 'just the ego', which we are all so fond of bashing otherwise, getting defeated, yet i agree that it's hard for anyone to do so (needless to say, me included) :-). but then if we find it so hard to concede even in a trivial debate on a blog, where is the question of 'losing it' or 'surrendering it' to bhagavAn??? there is an extraordinary divide between reading about 'giving up the ego' and 'actually doing it', which doesn't get any better no matter how many times one 'reads' about 'giving up the ego'! first, let's learn to gracefully lose our so-called little self in the trivial things of life before we entertain good-sounding stuff such as self-surrender :-)
Dear S,
I thought I should put an end to this unending controversy. However you have written something more. No doubt, Talks was not verified by Sri Bhagavan in toto and this is a false statement, I agree. But to keep on repeating that there is something in incorrect/wrong in Talks is also a display of ego, Is't not?
There is a time, there is a time,
When everything looks alike.
- T.S. Eliot
Sri Bhagavan answering about Mr. Edward Carpenter's state:
A question was raised as follows by
Major A.W. Chadwick:
Mr. Edward Carpenter, a certain mystic, has written in a book that he had Self Realization on some occasions and that its effects lasted sometimes afterwards, only to be gradually lost. Whereas Sri Ramana Gita says, "Granthi, snapped once, is snapped for ever." In case of this mystic, the bondage seems to have persisted ever after Self Realization. How can it be?
The Maharshi cited Kaivalyam as follows:
The disciple, after realizing the all-shining, unitary, unbroken state of Being Knowledge Bliss, surrendred himself to the Master and humbly prayed to know, how he could repay the master's Grace. The Master said: "My reward consists in your permanent unbroken bliss. Do not slip away from it."
....
The predisposition adhering to him from time immemorial will draw him out and so ignorance overtakes him.
(From Talks 95)
****
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Sunday, July 22, 1883
Taking advantage of the holiday, many householder devotees visited Sri Ramakrishna in
his room at the Dakshineswar temple garden. The Young devotees, mostly students,
generally came on week-days. Sometimes the Master asked his intimate disciples to come
on a Tuesday or a Saturday, days that he considered very auspicious for special religious
instruction. Adhar, Rakhal, and M. had come from Calcutta in a hired carriage.
Sri Ramakrishna had enjoyed a little rest after his midday meal. The room had an
atmosphere of purity and holiness. On the walls hung pictures of gods and goddesses,
among them one of Christ rescuing the drowning Peter. Outside the room were plants laden
with fragrant flowers, and the Ganges could be seen flowing toward the south. The Master
was seated on the small couch, facing the north, and the devotees sat on mats and carpets
spread on the floor. All eyes were directed toward him. Mani Mallick, an old Brahmo
devotee about sixty-five years of age, came to pay his respects to the Master. He had
returned a few months earlier from a pilgrimage to Benares and was recounting his
experiences to Sri Ramakrishna.
Difficulty of the Vedantic method
MANI MALLICK: "A monk whom I met in Benares said that no religious experience is
possible without the control of the sense-organs. Nothing could be achieved by merely
crying, 'God! God!' "
MASTER: "Do you understand the views of teachers like him? According to them, one
must first practise spiritual discipline: self-restraint, self-control, forbearance, and the like.
Their aim is to attain Nirvana. They are followers of Vedanta. They constantly
discriminate, saying, 'Brahman alone is real, and the world illusory.' But this is an
extremely difficult path. If the world is illusory, then you too are illusory. The teacher who
gives the instruction is equally illusory. His words, too, are as illusory as a dream.
"But this experience is beyond the reach of the ordinary man. Do you know what it is like?
If you burn camphor nothing remains. When wood is burnt at least a little ash is left.
Finally, after the last analysis, the devotee goes into samadhi. Then he knows nothing
whatsoever of 'I', 'you', or the universe."
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
As long as 'I' and 'you' exist, name and form will also exist. Everything is God's
lila. His sportive pleasure. As long as a man is conscious of 'I' and 'you', he will experience
the manifestations of God through diverse forms.
Purusha and Prakriti imply each other & Their inner harmony
"Sri Krishna is the Purusha; Srimati is His Sakti, the Primal Power. The two are Purusha
and Prakriti. What is the meaning of the Yugala Murti, the conjoined images of Radha and
Krishna? It is that Purusha and Prakriti are not different; there is no difference between
them. Purusha cannot exist without Prakriti, and Prakriti cannot exist without Purusha. If
you mention the one, the other is understood. It is like fire and its power to burn; one
cannot think of fire without its power to burn; again, one cannot think of fire's power to
burn without fire. Therefore in the conjoined images of Radha and Krishna, Krishna's eyes
are fixed on Radha and Radha's on Krishna. Radha's complexion is golden, like lightning;
so Krishna wears yellow apparel. Krishna's complexion is blue, like a dark cloud; so Radha
wears a blue dress; she has also decked herself with blue sapphires. Radha has tinkling
anklets; so Krishna has them too. In other words, there is inner and outer harmony between
Purusha and Prakriti."
As Sri Ramakrishna finished these words, Bankim and his friends began to whisper in
English.
MASTER (smiling, to Bankim and the others): "Well, gentlemen! What are you talking
about in English?"
ADHAR: "We are discussing what you have just said, your explanation of Krishna's form."
MASTER (smiling): "That reminds me of a funny story. It makes me want to laugh. Once a
barber was shaving a gentleman. The latter was cut slightly by the razor. At once he cried
out, 'Damn!' But the barber didn't know the meaning of the word. He put his razor and other
shaving articles aside, tucked up his shirt-sleeves-it was winter-, and said: 'You said
"damn" to me. Now you must tell me its meaning.' The gentleman said: 'Don't be silly. Go
on with your shaving. The word doesn't mean anything in particular; but shave a little more
carefully.' But the barber wouldn't let him off so easily. He said, 'If "damn" means
something good, then I am a "damn", my father is a "damn", and all my ancestors are
"damns". (All laugh.) But if it means something bad, then you are a "damn", your father is a
"damn", and all your ancestors are "damns". (All laugh.) They are not only "damns", but
"damn-damn-damn-da-damn-damn".'"(Loud laughter.)
Namaskar.
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai:
Verse 14, Verse No. 1466 of Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai:
Maruvinar thankaN mank kaLimbu
maaRRi
UruviLangu ponna oLirvikkum kaNNaan
PoruLila jnanaparipoonRa muzhu moni
IruLathu kaaNaatha Ramana guru
nathan
AruL nidhiya nokkiyadiyaaraarthal
polak
KuruvikaL aarpak kural koovia venal
Karuvimali soNai karainthezhugu
thooneer
Aruvineer aadi avirelor embaavai
Prof. K. Swaminathan:
This perfect Mouni of wisdom
consummate, Ramana
Guru who never, never sees
darkness,
Cleanses the minds corrupt with a
glance
And makes them shine like mirrors
of gold.
The sparrows chatter, their voice
mingle
And in hot summer even Sonai Hill
Melts into rills which add to the
music.
In this pure water
Bathe and shine, O maidens.
The thought filled mind is usually compared to a copper plate where there is green dirt, due to oxidation. This is usually the simile adopted by poets. Muruganar also says indirectly, that the mind is a copper plate that has gathered green dirt (kaLimbu). Sri Bhagavan's simple glance cleanses this dirt, kaLimbu. Not only that, the mind becomes mirror of gold.
The silent wisdom of Sri Bhagavan along with a glance will cleanse up the minds of devotees. This has been the experience of many devotees. Muruganar calls it as Tiru KaNNokkam in the verses under this title.
Muruganar says that the sparrows are chattering. In the early morning, the birds like cocks, sparrows, crows usually make musical noise to celebrate the dawn. Satyamanagalam Venkatarama Iyer also says in his Kalai Pattu,
verses 4 and 6:
KozhigaL koovina kurugugal iyambina...
Kakam karainthathu kaalaiyum ayiRRu...
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vivekachoodamani:
Talks No. 54:
An Andhra Pandit - an elderly gentleman -- had some doubts regarding Kavyakanta's exposition of Advaita. He had found it in books that Brahman is free from sajatiya, vijatiya, and swagata bheda. Such conditions are satisfied in Vivarta Vada but not
in Parinama Vada. In the latter, swagata beda is bound to be. The Maharshi pointed out that Dakshinamurti did not teach anything of the kind. He did not say that Brahman is related to Sakti or not related. All that was, was only silence. And the doubts of disciples were cleared. he significance is that that there is nothing to be learnt, discussed and concluded. Everyone knows "I am". There is the confusion that the "I"
is the body. Because the "I" arises from the Absolute and gives rise to buddhi. In buddhi the "I" looks the size and shape of the body, na medhaya means that Brahman cannot be apprehended by buddhi.
Brahman--> Aham ('I''I') --> buddhi.
How can such buddhi crossing over Aham discover Brahman? It is impossible. Just get over the false conception of the "I" being the body. Discover to whom the thoughts arise. If the present "I"-ness vanishes, the discovery is complete. What remains over is the pure Self. Compare deep sleep and wakefulness. Diversity and body are found only in the latter. In the former, the Self remains without the perception of the body or of the world. Happiness reigns over.
......
......
Devotee: How does a grihasta (householder) fare in the scheme of liberation, moksha?
Maharshi: Why do you think you are a grihasta? If you go out as a sannyasi, a similar thought that you are a sannyasi will haunt you. Whether you continue in the household, or renounce it and go to the forest, your mind haunts you.
......
......
The environment never abandons you, according to your desire. Look at me. I left home. Look at yourselves. You have come here leaving the environment. What do you find here? Is this different from what you left? Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, when he emerges from it he will himself in the environment which he is bound to have. That is the reason for the Sankaracharya emphasizing Sahaja Samadhi, in preference to Nirvikalpa Samadhi in his excellent
work Viveka Choodmani.
One should be in spontaneous Samadhi -- that is, in one's pristine state - in the midst of every environment.
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Viveka Choodamani:
Talks No. 314:
In yesterday's answers, (to Mr. Greenlees), Sri Bhagavan said that the Self is pure consciousness in deep slumber and He also indicated the Self of the transition from sleep to the waking state as the ideal for realization. He was requested to explain the same.
Sri Bhagavan graciously answered: The Self is pure consciousness in sleep. It evolves as Aham ("I") without idam (this) in the transition stage. And manifests as Aham ("I") and idam (this) in the waking state. The individual's experience is by means of Aham only. So he must aim at the realization in the way indicated i.e by means of the transitional 'I". Otherwise the sleep-experience does not matter to him. If the transitional "I" be realized, the substratum is found and that leads to the goal.
......
......
Prajnana is Brahman, says the Sruti. Brahman is eternal. The sleep experiencer is called Prajna. He is prajnanam in all the three states. Its particular significance in the sleep state is that He is full of knowledge, prajnanaghana. What is ghana? There are Jnana and vijnana. Both together operate in all perceptions. Vijnana in jagrat is Viparita Jnana (wrong knowledge) i.e ajnana (ignorance). It always co-exists with the individual. When this becomes Vispashta Jnana (Clear Knowledge), it is Brahman.
.....
Aitareya Upanishad says Prajnana, Vijnana, Ajnana, Samjnana are all names of Brahman. Being made up of knowledge alone how is He to be experienced? Experience is always
with Vijnana. Therefore the pure "I" of the transitional stage must be held for the experience of the Prajnanaghana.
.....
.....
How is this pure "I" to be realized? Viveka Choodmani says,
Vijnana kose vilasatyajasram, He is always shining for in the intellectual sheath, Vijnana Kosa. Tripura Rahasya and other works point out that the interval between the two consecutive sankalpas (ideas or thoughts) represent the pure Aham Prajnanaghana for aim, and there is the vritti present in the attempt. All these have their proper and respective places and at the same time lead to realization.
Again the pure Self has been described in Viveka Choodamani to be beyond asat, i.e different from asat. Here asat is the contaminated waking "I". Asadvilakshana means Sat i.e the Self of sleep. He is also described as different from sat and asat. Both means the same. He is also asesha sakshi (all seeing witness).
*****
Friends,
verse 9 of ThAyumAnavar's 'AnandamAna param':
எத்தனை விதங்கள்தான் கற்கினும் கேட்கினும்என்
இதயமும் ஒடுங்கவில்லை
யானெனும் அகந்தைதான் எள்ளளவு மாறவிலை
யாதினும் அபிமானம்என்
சித்தமிசை குடிகொண்ட தீகையொ டிரக்கமென்
சென்மத்து நானறிகிலேன்
சீலமொடு தவவிரதம் ஒருகனவி லாயினுந்
தெரிசனங் கண்டும்அறியேன்
பொய்த்தமொழி யல்லால் மருந்துக்கும் மெய்ம்மொழி
புகன்றிடேன் பிறர்கேட்கவே
போதிப்ப தல்லாது சும்மா இருந்தருள்
பொருந்திடாப் பேதைநானே
அத்தனை குணக்கேடர் கண்டதாக் கேட்டதா
அவனிமிசை யுண்டோசொலாய்
அண்டபகி ரண்டமும் அடங்கவொரு நிறைவாகி
ஆனந்த மானபரமே.
However much I learn,
However much I listen,
My heart does not attain oneness.
The ahankara that inflates I-ness
Has not disappeared even a bit.
In all things egoity dominates my thought.
I know not charity, nor compassion
In all my life.
Even in dream have I not visioned
Goodness and holy penance.
Except lies, even for a change,
I have not spoken truth.
Except that I teach for others to hear,
I have not sat in meditation
And sought Divine Grace.
So worthless am I.
Has there been anyone
Seen or heard in the world,
So evil? Pray speak!
Oh! Thou, Param that is Bliss
Encompassing in Pervasive Fullness,
The Universes many and Spaces vast!
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Nice verse from Tayumanavar. The "ego" will not leave its hold so easily. It has got scorpionic grip.
Tayumanavar says in another versed in Parapara KaNNi (37):
KaRRa aRivaal unaik naan kaNdavan
pol koothu aadil
KuRRam enRu en nenje kodhikkum paraparame!
If I learn some thing from books and with that knowledge, if I say
"I had darshan", even my heart will
boil saying "It's wrong",O Paraparame!
What to say? This morning I posted
Sri Bhagavan's explanation of Viveka Choodaamani. All this learning has come to Him by having the darshan of the Self and not by reading books. What a wonderful avatara He is!
Only after reading Adyatma Ramayana and other books for the sake of Pazhani Swami, He found out that His experience only has been described in those books! All book reading was necessitated for Him only for the sake of others. Not for His sake.
Thaane thaane thathuvam idhanith
Thaane kattuvai Arunachala!
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Viveka Choodamani:
Talks No. 349:
In the current issue of The Vision is published the following note, being the translation by Mr. S. Krishna M.A. of Sri Ramana Maharshi's preface to His translation of Sri Sankara's Viveka Choodamani.
Every being in the world yearns to be always happy, free from the taint of sorrow. And desires to get rid of bodily ailments which are not of his true nature. Further, everyone cherishes the greatest love for himself. And this love is not possible in the absence of happiness. In deep sleep, though devoid of everything, one has the experience of being happy. Yet, due to the ignorance of the real nature of one's own being, which is happiness itself, people flounder in the vast ocean of material existence forsaking the right path that leads to happiness and act under the mistaken belief that the way to be happy consists in obtaining the pleasures of this and the other world.
A Safe Guide: But, alas, that happiness which has not the taint of sorrow is not realized. It is precisely that God Siva took on the guise of Sri Sankaracharya, wrote the commentaries on the Triune Institutes (Prasthana Traya) of the Vedanta, which extol the excellence of this bliss. And demonstrated it by his own example in life. These commentaries, however, are of little use, to those ardent seekers who are intent upon realizing the bliss of absolution, but have not the scholarship for studying them.
It is for such ass these that Sri Sankara revealed the essence of the commentaries in this short treatise, 'The Crown-gem of Discrimination', explaining in detail the points that have to be grasped by those who seek absolution and thereby directing them to the true and straight path.
Learning Won't Do: Sri Sankara opens the theme by observing that it is hard to attain human birth, and one should (having attained it) strive for the realization of the bliss of liberation, which is verily the nature of one's being. By Jnana or Knowledge alone is this bliss realized, and Jnana achieved only through Vichara or steady enquiry. In order to know this method of enquiry, says Sri Sankara, one should seek the favor of a Guru, and proceeds to describe the qualities of the Guru and his sishya and how the latter should approach and serve his master. He further emphasizes that in order to realize the bliss of liberation one's own individual effort is an essential factor. Mere book learning never yields this bliss which can be realized only through
enquiry or Vichara, which consists of Sravana or devoted attention to the precepts of the Guru, manana, or deep contemplation and Nididhyasana or the cultivation of steady poise in the Self.
contd.,
R.Subramanian/Friends,
"The "ego" will not leave its hold so easily. It has got scorpionic grip."
Friend,Thayumanavar's songs are very dear to me.They have this intensely poignant quality that melts even a stone heart and puts one on one's own teritory,thus breaking the clinging to borrowed thoughts.
Instead of speaking about the 'ego' in third person,this song brings it into sharp focus as first person singular.This needs to be felt intensely-'I am the problem.I am ignorant.I am not letting go of attachments.I am pretending.I am without intelligence.I am without Bhakti.How do I expect to partake of Grace that I talk about so vocally?Surely there is no Ignoramus worse than me';When the heart feels this intensely,there is a melting and this is the only way of coming to grips with the so called 'Ego'.Otherwise all of us wll agree that 'Ego' is the problem,and will continue to agree that 'It continues to be the Problem'.
If we perceive 'Ego' as our enemy,kill him;If we are unable to do so,join him and make him a friend,saying 'I am the devotee,I am the child of God'.There is no other way.The 'inbetween' status is Bogus.
We often observe how crows do a sortie sometimes,by flapping their wings quickly and after gaining height simply glide and end up landing on the tree Branch.They seem to be satisfied that they have emulated the soaring flight of an eagle.
The Eagle flaps its wings much more slowly and take their time o gain the required height,launch themselves on the strong upward wind currents and circle and soar at those great Heights.They are simply sustained on the buoyancy of the currents without having to flap their wings.
Such is the difference between the Great ones like Sri Bhagavan and fledgeling crows like us.
For Fledgeling eagles like us,it is better to flap our wings and learn to fly.When we reach a suficient Height we will be borne upwards by the current of Grace.It is infact the same Grace that is sustaining us and enable us to even begin our flying lesson.
Namasar.
Friends,
Verse 5 from ThAyumAnavar's 'KarunAkarak KadavuL':
மெய்விடா நாவுள்ள மெய்யரு ளிருந்துநீ
மெய்யான மெய்யைஎல்லாம்
மெய்யென வுணர்த்தியது மெய்யிதற் கையமிலை
மெய்யேதும் அறியாவெறும்
பொய்விடாப் பொய்யினேன் உள்ளத் திருந்துதான்
பொய்யான பொய்யைஎல்லாம்
பொய்யெனா வண்ணமே புகலமைத் தாயெனில்
புன்மையேன் என்செய்குவேன்
மைவிடா செழுநீல கண்டகுரு வேவிட்ணு
வடிவான ஞானகுருவே
மலர்மேவி மறையோது நான்முகக் குருவே
மதங்கள்தொறும் நின்றகுருவே
கைவிடா தேயென்ற அன்பருக் கன்பாய்க்
கருத்தூ டுணர்த்துகுருவே
கருதரிய சிற்சபையி லானந்த நிர்த்தமிடு
கருணா கரக்கடவுளே.
Seated inmost within the heart of truthful ones
Whose tongue utters nothing but Truth,
Thou taught the Truth that is Truth of Truths.
This is the Truth.
There is doubt naught about it.
Yet, it is from within the heart of this false one
Who, nothing but falsehood utters,
Thou made appear falsehood of falsehoods
As perfect Truth.
If so, what shall I do?
Oh! Thou of Jnana Guru in Vishnu form!
Oh! Thou the fourheaded Brahma Guru
That chants Vedas from the lotus seat!
Oh! Thou the Guru that taught faiths all!
Oh! Guru that teaches in love to dear devotees
That seek refuge in Thee!
Thou, the God of Compassion Fullness
That dances in rapture in the chit sabha
Defying description!
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan and Viveka Choodamani:
Talks No. 349:
continues....
THE THREE PATHS: The three bodies -
physical, subtle and causal- are non-self and are unreal. The Self or 'I' is quite different from them. It is due ignorance that the sense of the Self or the 'I' notion
is foisted on that which is not the Self, and this indeed is bondage. Since from ignorance arises bondage, from Knowledge ensues liberation. To know this from the Guru is Sravana.
To reject the three bodies consisting of five sheaths (physical, vital, mental, gnostic,
and blissful) as not 'I' and to extract through subtle enquiry of 'Who am I?' -- even as the central blade of grass is delicately drawn from its whorl - that which is different from all the three bodies and is existent as one and universal in the heart as Aham or 'I" and denoted by the words Tvam (in the Scriptural dictum - Tat tvam asi -- That thou art.) This
process of subtle enquiry is mananam or deep contemplation.
THE BEATITUDE: The world of name and form is but an adjunct of Sat or Brahman, and being not different from it is rejected as as such and is affirmed as nothing else but Brahman. The instruction by the Guru to the disciple of the Mahavakya - Tat tvam asi, which declares the identity of the Self and the Supreme is Upadesa. The disciple is then enjoined to remain in the beatitude of Aham Brahman - 'I' the Absolute. Nevertheless the old tendencies of the mind sprout up thick and strong and form an obstruction to the state of beatitude. These tendencies are threefold and egoism, which is their root, flourishes in the externalized and differentiating consciousness caused by the forces of Vikshepa or dissipation (due to
rajas) and Avarana or envelopment (due to tamas).
CHURNING THE MIND: To install the
mind firmly in the heart until these forces are destroyed and to awaken with unswerving, ceaseless vigilance the true and cognate tendency which is characteristic of the Atman and is expressed by the dicta, Aham Brahmasmi, (I am Brahman,) and Brahmaivaham (Brahman alone am I) is termed Nididhyasana or Atmanusandhana, i.e. constancy in the Self. This is otherwise called Bhakti, Yoga and Dhyana.
Atmanusandhana has been likened to churning the curd to draw forth butter, the mind being compared to the churning rod, the heart to the curd and the practice of constancy in the Self to the process of churning. Just as by churning the curd butter is extracted and by friction fire is kindled, even so, by unswerving vigilant constancy in the Self, the ceaseless like the unbroken filamentary flow of oil,
is generated the natural or changeless trance of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, which readily and spontaneously yields the direct, immediate, unobstructed and universal perception of Brahman, which is at once Knowledge and Experience and which transcends time and space.
continued....
Sri Bhagavan and Viveka Choodamani:
Talks No. 349:
continues...
LIMITLESS BLISS: This is Self Realization. And thereby is cut asunder the hridaya-granthi, or the knot of the heart. The false delusions of ignorance, the vicious and age long tendencies of the mind, which constitute this knot, are destroyed. All doubts are dispelled and the bondage of Karma severed.
Thus has Sri Sankara described in this Crown-gem of Discrimination, samadhi or trance transcendent, which is the limitless bliss of liberation, beyond doubt and duality, and has at the same time indicated the means for its attainments. To realize this state of freedom from duality is the Summum bonum of life. And he alone that has won it, is a Jivanmukta (the liberated one while yet alive), and not he who has merely a theoretical understanding of what constitutes purushartha or the desired end and aim of human endeavor.
FINAL FREEDOM: Thus defining a Jivanmukta, he is declared to be free from the bonds of threefold karmas (sanchita, agami and prarabdha). The disciple who has reached this stage then relates his personal experience. The liberated one is free indeed to act as he pleases, and when he leaves the mortal frame, attains absolution and returns not to this birth which is death.
Sri Sankara thus describes Realization that connotes liberation as two fold, Jivan Mukti and Viedha Mukti referred to above.
Moreover, in this short treatise, written in the form of a dialogue between a Guru and his disciple, he has considered many relevant topics.
(Sri Bhagavan's preface and the full prose rendering is available in the Collected Works, Tamizh.
In English, Arthur Osborne has translated in his English Collected Works. The Asramam has also published a book recently giving the Ulaganatha Swsmigal's verse rendering of Vivekachoodmani and side by side, Sri Bhagavan's translation in Tamizh. However, the Tamizh verse version of Ulaganatha Swamigal do not go by verse by verse rendering of the Sanskrit work of Sri Sankara. The Tamizh verses are in variance in numbers. Sri Bhagavan's Tamizh prose rendering is from original Sanskrit
version.)
concluded.
Friends,
Verse 148 of ThAyumAnavar's parA parakkaNNE(Wreath: Pervasive Supreme) :
சித்தந் தெளிந்து சிவமானோ ரெல்லோர்க்குங்
கொத்தடிமை யான குடிநான் பராபரமே.
A bond serf am I
To all those who,
Having attained purity of thought,
Themselves Siva became.
Oh Para Param!
Namaskar.
Friends,
Wish to share two incidents from the Lives of Devotees of Sri Bhagavan which are quite similiar to each other-where he points to them that the sense of 'doership' is to be eschewed.
The First incident is from the wonderful Book-Living by the words of Bhagavan.
""In the mid 1940s,when Bhagavan began to find it difficult to walk.Arumugam and I levelled and cleared the path on which Bhagavan usually took his daily walk.The Path ran through the ashram to palakottu and then back to the ashram via the lower slopes of the hill.To make a smooth surface we put mud on the path and covered it with soft sand.We also installed a tall stone at a place where there was a break in the slope so that Bhagavan could hold on to it while he was climbing.(This is service to Guru of the rarest kind-Ravi)The path needed occasional maintenance because the herds of goats which roamed around the lower slopes of the hill frequently kicked thorny twigs onto it.One day,as I was walking along this path,I noticed several new thorns,I took a branch from a nearby tree and swept the path clean.
That night,when went to the ashram for darshan,Bhagavan asked me,'who cleared that path?'
I told him that I had decided to clean it because I had noticed some thorns while I was out for a walk.
Bhagavan then asked me sharply,"Why are you reflecting on this act which you have done?"(Swami told me this incident.Bhagavan simply asked:Oh!nEE pannayO!-meaning Oh!So you did it!-Ravi)
I immediately understood that Bhagavan was trying to tell me that I should not have the idea,'i have done this service for Bhagavan'.i was not aware that I was dwelling on this thought but Bhagavan must have seen it in my mind.
'You can see my mind.i was not aware that I was thinking ,"I have done this".I just cleaned the path because I didn't want Bhagavan to tread on any thorns.'
Bhagavan responded by saying ,'If you do not look back at acts that you have done,a lot of benefits will accrue to you.'
Bhagavan still seemed to be suggesting that I was consciously dwelling on the act,so I told him again,'Bhagavan knows that I was not consciously thinking,"I did this job"'.
Then I quoted a verse by Thayumanavar: உள்ளம் அறிவாய் உழப்பறிவாய் நான்ஏழை
தள்ளிவிடின் மெத்தத் தவிப்பேன் பராபரமே.
Thou knoweth my heart.
Thou knoweth my distress.
Helpless am I.
If Thou reject me,
In anguish extreme will I be,
Oh Para Param!
(Swami recited this verse in Tamil at this juncture.I have copied this translation which is a little more accurate-ravi)
Bhagavan smiled at my quote and didn't pursue the matter any further.
---------------------------------
Namaskar.
Friends,
The second incident is copied from another post of David here in this blog(May 2008?):
n the first edition of Ramana Sannidhi Murai there was no poem corresponding to Siva Puranam of Tiruvachakam. Since this work was patterned on Tiruvachakam, it seemed incomplete to that extent. So Muruganar started composing a poem on the same lines. His inspired pen quickly wrote two hundred lines. At this stage a doubt arose in his mind as to what would be the appropriate title for this [work]. The obvious title could be Siva Puranam, since Siva’s name is dear to his devotees and Ramana was the embodiment of Lord Siva. But the verses were extolling the glory of the Lord as Ramana. So why not call it Ramana Puranam? Thus tossed by doubt Muruganar left the place, leaving the lines at Ramana’s feet.
When he returned in the evening Ramana handed back the poems. A great surprise was in store for Muruganar. Ramana had distinctly written ‘Ramana Puranam’ not only at the top of the work but also at the top of each and every page. He had not stopped with that. He had himself composed three hundred more lines and completed the work....
When the second edition of Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai was [about to be] published these verses were also added. Muruganar had included a footnote to indicate that the first two hundred lines had been composed by him and the remaining three hundred by Bhagavan. After correcting the proof he handed over the matter to Ramana. While going through it Ramana saw the footnote and remarked, ‘Are only these [lines] written by Bhagavan?’ Muruganar at once saw his error. Were not the earlier ones too a product of Ramana’s grace? He at once prostrated to Bhagavan and with profuse tears said ‘Nothing is written by me. Everything flows from your grace.’ He then promptly deleted the footnote. (Ramana’s Muruganar, pp. 12-13.)
----------------------------------
Sri Bhagavan's cryptic messages always drive home the point.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from The gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Master:""What is knowledge? And what is the nature of this ego? 'God alone is the Doer, and none
else' - that is knowledge. I am not the doer; I am a mere instrument in His hand. Therefore I
say: 'O Mother, Thou art the Operator and I am the machine. Thou art the Indweller and I
am the house. Thou art the Driver and I am the carriage. I move as Thou movest me. I do as
Thou makest me do. I speak as Thou makest me speak. Not I, not I, but Thou, but Thou.' "
Namaskar.
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai: Verse 15:
Verse 1467 of Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai:
KuppaikiLaik kuRRumuzhuk kozheri
maaNikkamaNi
ThuppaRvil kozhi yedhir thonRiyathai
yeLLi igazhnth
Thoppavuyap pohumuRar vottai poy
namu namak
Keipinidai vaippa veLi vantha
Venkatanaith
ThappalaRu satchitananda siva
thatthuvani
Ippaidiyin maanidanaa eNNi eLLi
yemaaRa
ThappramaR katchithu neeraadi
appayanum
Apparaman thaaLke yadaiyolor
Embaavai.
Prof. K. Swaminathaan:
A stupid hen raking in a muck heap
Finding a flawless, rich, bright
gem
Scorns it, knowing not its worth.
Even so, we might have missed
A lifetime's chance of Life
immortal.
Without our effort, Venkata has
Come to us at our greatest need,
Himself, Being-Awareness-Bliss.
Be not deceived by His human form.
And surrender what you earn by
this.
Bathe in bliss at His Feet,
O maidens.
Muruganar uses the word "thuppaRvil", the knowledge of discrimination. The hen does not have knowledge of discrimination and does not know the value of gem.
We should also not be like this, since as humans, we should use more of discrimination, to make the life purposeful and attain liberation through a competent Guru. Sri Bhagavan also uses the word in AAMM:
ThuppaRivillla ippirappen payan
Oppidavaaiyen Arunachala! (46)
What is the use of this birth, without the power of discrimination, (to do self enquiry)? O come and fill this void, Arunachala!
Again Muruganar says: ippadiyin maanidanaa eNNi yeLLi yemaaRaathu..
Don't think that He is a mere human being and ignore. You will only be deceived. (He is Almighty in human form).
Manikkavachagar also says the same thing, in Tiru Sadhagam, Anandaaditam, Tiruvachakam, 5.10.1
O the Limitless! You came as a humble human and gazed me with all
effulgence. But this poor me, this lowly dog, with out moisture in my heart, missed you and fell into lowliness, and became the forsaken!
****
Lucy Ma's Liberation Day - 31.12.2011:
Lucy Cornelssen, also called Lucy Ma in the Asramam Circles attained liberation on 31st December. She is the authoress of the book Hunting the "I". I and my wife used to meet her daughter, name not clearly known, but always called as Lucy Ma's daughter, in the Samadhi Hall, during our visits. This lady used to wear a white sari and white blouse with a chain having Cross around her neck and bright red kumukum on her forehead. Once she said she came to India to attend to her mother, who was seriously ill, in 1990s and after her mother's merger with Sri Bhagavan, she continued staying in Tiruvannamalai! A family of bonded labor, kotthadimai!, to Sri Bhagavan.
I do not know readily when Lucy Cornelssen came to Sri Bhagavan. The book Face to Face (of Hyderabad Kendra) which covers about 160 devotees and their first encounters with Sri Bhagavan did not have any information about Lucy Cornelessen.
So she might have come to the Asramam after Sri Bhagavan's Maha Nirvana. And possibly lived upto '90s.
continued...
The funniest comment for 2011 would have to go to Subramanian! "First you said about the Lungi matter. I explained.
Lungi is a Moslem variation of white dhoti, which is
worn by Hindus since ages. Innfact temple authorities
do not object to one wearing trousers and T shirts.
Lungis tradionally are considered as a home attire
like nighties and negligees for women."
Lucy Cornellsen's article in Sri
Ramana Smrti, 1980:
IDENTITY:
Question: If the ego or 'I' be an illusion, who then casts off the illusion?
Maharshi: The 'I' casts off the illusion of 'I' and yet remains as 'I'. This appears to be a paradox to you. It is not so to the Jnani
(Guru Ramana, 17, Feb, 1937)
Question: Is an intellectual understanding of the truth necessary?
Maharshi: Yes. Otherwise why does not the person realize God or the Self at once, i.e. as soon as he is told that God is all or the Self is all? One must argue with himself and gradually convince himself of the truth. (Talks dated, 16 Dec. 1937)
How is this? Are there not many quotations from Sri Ramana Maharshi's works and talks quite to the contrary, wherein He clearly states that there is no reaching the truth by intellect, but that intellect (or mind) has to be transcended in order to attain the truth? Isn't this a flagrant contradiction?
Only apparently.
According to the highest revelations of mankind we are the Truth. Why then are we not aware of this plain fact? Because the intellect has developed from being a useful servant into a troublesome and tyrranical master in the house.
It will not and cannot be convinced
of the higher truth, because this is beyond its scope. However it can be transcended and the conviction reached that there is a higher power, and that it will do to open the Heart to the possibility of direct experience.
Let us see. First of all, what is meant by 'intellect'? It is a faculty of the brain. Its roots are simply discriminating and choosing. When mature, it is the thinking faculty. In a widest sense we have to add two other faculties - emotion and will. These three together are a biological mechanism of reacting, on impulses from without and within our body. It developed with the development of the brain and nervous system and is prompted and conditioned by the faculty of perceiving, consciously or unconsciously, which itself is not part of that mechanism of reacting, but is independent of it.
A newly born child reacts merely to bodily comfort and discomfort, which means that it shows only feeling. After some weeks or even months it starts to discriminate faces and tries to understand things, which means it is beginning to develop its intellect. The will is only discovered by it in the third year. In between it has learned to speak and to discriminate among the between it has learned to speak and to discriminate among the members of the family by name, using its own name when it wants to point to itself. It does not talk about 'my'
ball or 'my' doll, but Peter's ball, Mary's doll. This is an important feature, since it shows that the child has yet no genuine feeling of 'I'. It takes itself as one person among other persons. And even when after sometime it starts to use the 'I' for itself, this is still not a genuine 'I'. The child simply learnt to imitate the way persons around itself express themselves, that everybody, though having a name by which he or she is known and spoken of by others, says 'I' when speaking of himself or herself.
continued....
Lucy Cornelssen's article in Sri Ramana Smrti, 1980.
IDENTITY:
During this first decade of life, the child learns to discriminate between
'father' and 'mother' and 'I', 'myself' as persons with certain qualities, everyone occupying a certain status within the group, the family. When the brain and nervous system of child are nearly fully developed, then it has a concept of itself as a clear cut person, boy or girl, named so and so, tall or short, fair or dark, clever in school or not -- in short a personal 'I' complete in itself. However, strange to say, this young human being is not at all happy, though not knowing why.
Parents and elders believe they know the reason, if the boy or girl is in the period of puberty and adolescence. The body undergoes a certain change in its metabolism.
It does, but that is quite natural development which started unperceived much earlier without giving trouble. The real reason for the unbalanced mental condition of the young person is quite different.
Brain and nervous system are many more than just working mechanisms in the service of the individual body-mind-complex. They have a higher purpose. They are meant as a 'wireless receiver', for impulses from the universal Consciousness too. The mental and emotional struggle at the time of puberty is also caused by the first powerful impulse from Cosmic Consciousness. However, the entrance is blocked by the personal 'I', which is entirely an image only, a concept, a mere construction of the intellect.
There would be no need for struggle and disturbed balance, if young people knew what was happening. If they were prepared to surrender to that wonder which is in store for them during this high time of maturity. They should have learnt to witness what is going on within themselves. Then they would discover that their individual consciousness has a greater Consciousness for its source, from which now emanates 'a greater I' than that by which they are more troubled than pleased. "An 'I' without identity which is simply itself, omnipresent, void, silent, pure, glorious and mysterious peaceful joy." (Huang Po).
Alas, the entrance is blocked, though quite unconsciously, by sheer ignorance, which caused the growing intellect to be busy entirely with the impulses from outside, neglecting everything which is not sense perception.
continued....
Lucy Cornelessn's article in Sri
Ramana Smrti: 1980:
IDENTITY:
continues.....
In the young Venkataraman, the genuine "I am" broke through the unconscious resistance by means of a dramatic experience. What started as a sheer horror of physical death, developed itself during the experience as the 'death' of the manifold 'personal I' for the sake of Aham Sphurana, the "I-I" or genuine identity.
In almost all other cases, it succeeds only in sneaking in, which means not being able to overwhelm and wipe out the intellectually constructed 'I'. Both of them get confused into a knot of a personality which now has the spark of genuine identity as its backbone, as it were, making it seemingly impossible to discriminate and separate one from the other! Never mind, there will be other opportunities later on in life to work on the 'wireless' as will be shown presently.
It is to be kept in mind that according to the sages, we always are that true identity, the Atman. It is our true nature. The change of the situation during maturity consists merely in the fact that the true identity is going to become conscious, to open up the individual consciousness to the dimension of Cosmic Consciousness.
However, there is the usurper intellect and the more it develops the more it obstructs. What can we do to remove it?
Intellect will never be able to grasp the reality of an identity beyond itself, but it can be brought to acknowledge its own limits. We have gently to train it, not to interfere any more. We have to keep it quiet by not listening to its arguing. When we do not pay attention to its pros and cons it finally gets tired and give up. Meditation is the means of such systematic training. But even more efficient is a mindful awareness throughout the day. It keeps the intellect to those areas of everyday life for which it is meant and where it is 'a useful servant.'
This is the royal means to bring it under control for the future. Usually it is restless, the favorite vehicle of rajo-guna. But fortunately there are periods of spontaneous sattva-guna, when even the intellect is automatically inclined to rest. These are moments when we may discover suddenly a free access into the beyond, where the ripe one (adhikari) may meet his true identity.
Sri Bhagavan says:
Why is not the pure 'I' realized or even remembered by us? Because of want of acquaintance with it. It can be recognized only if it is constantly attained. Therefore, make the effort and gain it consciously.
- Talks. 3, January 1937)
In the Mahavakya, Tat tvam asi - Thou art That - 'That' stands for the true identity. Sri Ramana Maharshi uses the same 'That' in Verse 27 of Reality in Forty Verses (and later on), 'The State in which the personal 'I' does not arise, is the state of being That.'
Naan udhiyathu uLLa nilai
Naam adhuvai ninRa nilai.
continued....
Lucy Ma Liberation Day - 31.12.2011:
Lucy Cornelessen's article in Sri
Ramana Smriti: 1980
continues...
Going through our most cherished memories of the past, are there not certain situations when we were happy in a way, we have never been able to forget since? May be we belong to those for whom a beautiful landscape is more than a pretty picture. May be it was a sunset at the seashore or even in the Himalayas, very quiet, very remote...May be we involuntarily opened ourselves to it, so that it could enter our very being with its timeless beauty, its surrender into a Supreme Light, a Supreme Silence, in which all thinking and planning, all insecurity and restlessness vanished, leaving behind a person who had forgotten himself, being completely absorbed by the mystery of this now and here.
This state is exactly a spontaneous revealing of 'That', his true nature, his true 'I'. It broke through because he surrendered himself to an impression strong enough to lift up for the time being the restlessness and convulsion of the reacting mechanism of the personal 'I' for the sake of the non-reacting true 'I'. This true 'I' is always only a mirror to all impressions and happenings, whereas the personal 'I' responds to them by reacting.
If the person who experiences this would simply close his eyes and direct his attention towards what is going on within himself, then he would learn that all the beauty, the wonderful deep and silent bliss of this hour is only his own true being, his true 'I'. And he would experience that the perfect man is not a mere theory, but a reality and at the same time the perfectly happy man. For perfection is not a matter of qualities but a state of Consciousness.
A person who likes music can have a similar experience with great music. Each great piece of art can have this effect on those who are able to tune themselves accordingly. But even a rather dry person, somebody who takes himself to be completely down to earth, is able experience the true 'I' simply because it is the inevitable next step of evolution, which man is destined to recognize and to take.
It is love which ready to receive and bless everyone and which has the magic touch to open the gate to the true identity that remains locked up for ever to the intellect.
We have to forget the shade of egotism in human love and leave alone the torrent of passion which some may call love. We have to think of that feature of love which releases the radiance of the true "I". Neither passion nor infatuation reveals it, but it is found in the hours of silence, when words are unnecessary and thoughts about matters of day to day life have no strength -- hours of a timeless 'here and now', without past or future.
continued....
Lucy Ma's Liberation Day - 31.12.2011:
Lucy Cornelessen's article in Sri
Ramana Smriti: 1980:
IDENTITY:
continues....
Where there is genuine self forgetful love there shines instead of the habitual 'me', the pure, quiet, real 'I', and here also it is not recognized, because the lover covers it with the beloved 'thou'.
True, we have entered into these experiences more or less unconscious of their real meaning, leaving no other result than merely a nostalgic memory. But realizing now what kind of treasure awaits our readiness to breakthrough our ignorance, we can even make use of an experiment which was strongly recommended by Sri Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi.
After having retired for the night, one has to first relax from the restlessness and the tension of intellectual activity. When sleep is nearing, one has to try to keep as the last thought the resolution to meet as the fist thing on awakening the experience of the true 'I'.
Deep and sincere longing will always succeed in this experiment, if not immediately then after some after some attempts. The first thing emerging from sleep into waking consciousness is always the true 'I', pure, silent, absolute in itself, remaining all alone for a few seconds, or even longer by practice. Other thoughts start only
a little later, testifying to the little known fact that Consciousness is not necessarily the same as thinking.
What is possible once even for a moment can be extended by practice. This experiment gives you the advantage that you now know the aim of the endeavor. It will help you in your further sadhana like leavening in the dough.
Sri Ramana Maharshi called this the 'transitional I' and stressed the importance of this experience:
"This transitional 'I' is a moment of pure awareness, which is aware of only itself as 'I', pure identity in itself.
"The I-thought is only limited 'I'. The real 'I' is unlimited, universal, beyond time and space. Just on rising up from sleep and before seeing the objective world, there is a state of awareness, which is your pure Self. That must be known." (Talks 311)
The moment you succeed, keep very quiet and observe. This 'I' neither thinks nor wills. It has no qualities. It is neither man nor woman and has neither body nor mind. It has no trace of the 'person' which you thought of yourself to be up to now. It is simply conscious of itself as "I am." Not 'I am this' 'I am that' -- only I AM.
But beware. It is not your I-person, who has this 'I-consciousness' as an object but this consciousness is your real 'I'. This pure Be-ing 'I am" is the first glimpse of the true Identity which is by nature Pure Consciousness.
To make this test of awakening in the morning, it is important, in so far as one knows afterwards what the goal for which we embarked looks like. It also makes it easier to recognize it in other circumstances. Moreover, this silent, alert awareness is the last experience which the seeker can reach by his effort. For when his 'personal I' is wiped out, then all his effort too has automatically reached its end. Where there is no 'personal I' there cannot be any effort. What remains is a Consciousness, which no longer feels but is listening within. No longer thinks, but is silent. No longer wills, but lets happen what will happen. It is exactly the state which reveals itself as I AM, the true Identity.
Last but not the least, it is this great experience of the true identity of man which turned the schoolboy Venkataraman into the world famous Sage Ramana of Arunachala!
concluded.
salutations to all:
a few days ago, i was talking about 'Ananda' or bliss as the prime motivator of this mysterious
quest. now, though 'Ananda' can't be described in mere words, thAkur in his inimitable way offers an extraordinary hint on what indeed is this 'Ananda'! and wow! what a description, something well-within the grasp of anybody, erudite or illiterate! :-)))
here is an excerpt from the kathAmrta (gospel of sri rAmakriShNa):
(Monday, December 17, 1883)
[MASTER: "The whole thing, in a nutshell is that one must develop ecstatic love for Satchidananda. What kind of love? How should one love God?... 'Mad'! That's the word. One must become mad with love in order to realize God. But that love is not possible if the mind dwells on 'woman and gold'. Sex-life with a woman! What happiness is there in that? The realization of God gives ten million times more happiness. When a man attains ecstatic love of God all the pores of the skin, even the roots of the hair, become like so many sexual organs, and in every pore the aspirant enjoys the happiness of communion with the Atman."]
Tirupugah Padi Vizha - 31st Dec./1st Jan. every year.
Arunagiri Natha of Tiruvannamalai is famous for his melodious songs called Tirupugazh praising Lord Muruga. He is said to have composed 18000 songs. But today we get only 1300+ songs.
Padi Vizha means Step Festival. The devotees sing one song on each step of the Hill of Muruga Temples like
Tiruttani, Tiruparangunram, Pazhani, Siruvapuri and climb the Hill. The group starts their bhajans of Tirupugazh with musical accompaniment and climb each step
after singing one song. They also light camphor on each step. In places like Tiruttani, where there are 365 steps, the prayer starts at 9 pm on 31st Dec. and gets over in the early morning around 5 am. on 1st Jan. They then, as per original arrangements complete abhishekam to Muruga and receive vibhuti prasadam. Food is also served to all visitors and participants.
This was started by Vallimalai Satchitananda Swamigal in 1917. Seeing the clerkish Indians going to British bosses to wish them New Year, by 10 am in the offices,on 1st Jan., he told them to come to Muruga first and offer prayers! It started with 25 people. Today thousands participate. In Bangalore, it is done on the steps of Mount of Joy -
Muruga Temple at South Bangalore, where about 500 people participate. Considering the chill weather of Bangalore, this festival starts at 7 am on 1st Jan. and gets over by 12 Noon.
VaLLimalai Satchitananda Swamigal had also met Sri Bhagavan and spent some time. Once he sang during giri pradakshina, the song Vedichi Kavalane.. from Tirupugazh, Vedichi Kavalan Vahuppu. Seshadri Swamigal on listening to his songs, told him: Tiruppugazh is your mantram. Proceed and sing it earnestly.
Though Arunagiri Natha lived in 14th century, his poems were collected from various sources, only in 19th Century. Sri Va.Tha.
Subramania Pillai and his son (or son in law) V.S. Chengalvaraya Pillai collected about 1300 songs from palm leaves and from local singers' manuscripts in villages.
Later in post Independent India, Guruji Raghavan has made efforts to spread Tirupugazh by bringing each song into raga/tala and publishing books at concessionary rates and enabling groups to sing these songs. A book of 501 songs with all raga/tala details is now available for Rs. 60/-. And groups in Bangalore, Chennai, Delhi, Mumbai and even small towns are singing them once in a week.
Sri Gopala Sundaram has got his own website www.kaumaram.com, where he has given all the now available 1324 songs with meanings in English!
Tirupugazh festivals are famous even in Singapore, Malaysia, Sri Lanka and Australia.
VaLLimalai Swamigal's Pongi (VaLLi) temple in Tirumullai vayil near Chennai is famous as a temple cum ashram. Here Pongi (realized Jiva, VaLLi) is prayed to.
Sri Bhagavan used to quote some Tirupugazh songs in His conversations. The details have been given in one article by David Godman, Robert Butler and Dr. Venkatasubramanian.
Arunagiri Natha himself has forecast, in one of his songs:
"In future by climbing every step of your temple, the devotees will sing my songs." It has become a Reality.
Dr. Kamil Zvelebil, a scholar in Tamizh literature, has done research on Muruga and Murugan devotional poems. His book The Smile of Murugan is quite popular.
****
Wish David and all the blog members, Happy and Peaceful New Year 2012.
Subramanian.R
R.subramanian/Friends,
Thanks for your wonderful post on Tiruppugazh and SatchidAnanda Swami.Tomorrow is kalpataru Day at Ramakrishna mutt and as it happens to be Sri Ramakrishna's 175th Jayanti ,they have scheduled daily chanting of lalitha SahasranAmam at 07:00 hrs in chennai for the next 48 days until his jayathi day that falls in february.
Namaskar.
s/friends,
Thanks 's' for that wonderful post from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.
In this excerpt from The Gospel,the Master talks about rAga bhakti:
"Your philosophy is mere speculation. It only reasons. God cannot be realized that way.
"God cannot remain unmoved if you have raga-bhakti, that is, love of God with passionate
attachment to Him. Do you know how fond God is of His devotees' love? It is like the
cow's fondness for fodder mixed with oil-cake. The cow gobbles it down greedily.
"Raga-bhakti is pure love of God, a love that seeks God alone and not any worldly end.
Prahlada had it. Suppose you go to a wealthy man every day, but you seek no favour of
him; you simply love to see him. If he wants to show you favour, you say: 'No, sir. I don't
need anything. I came just to see you.' Such is love of God for its own sake. You simply
love God and don't want anything from Him, in return."
Namaskar.
Silence is a a powerful pointer-when it is completely natural, and there is no imagined person attempting to be quiet.
The stillness of being in the presence of a self-realized one, that is the greatest pointer of all.
Dear Ravi,
Thank you for information about
Kalpataru Day, Sri Ramakrishna Math, Chennai programme and Sri Ramakrishna's Jayanti. Last evening, in National College Grounds in Bangalore, Sarada Devi Day celebrations were conducted. In the evening, to which my wife went, they chanted Sri Soundarya Lahari. In spite of inclement weather, a large number of ladies and gentleman had come, I am told. They also took out a procession of a newly made idol of Sarada Devi, from National College to Sri Ramakrishna Math, which is about 2 kms. Incidentally, there is a rock on the left of Sri Ramakrishna Math Buildings (within the compound of the Math) in Bangalore, where Sarada Devi sat in meditation, about a hundred years ago. This year is the centenary year of that incident.
Subramanian. R
T.R. Kanakammal:
I remember the first of Jan. 2010, on which day I was in Asramam, for Sri Bhagavan's Jayanti which fell on that day. Smt. Kanakammal came to have darshan on that day to Samadhi Hall. It was around 11 am. She came and people in the crowd left way for her and she went near Sri Ramaneswara Mahalingam, and while prostrating before Him, she got absorbed in Bhagavan, in His very presence and in the midst of hundreds of devotees!
"Very often she used to remark: 'What does it matter whether we attain Jnana or not? The singular blessing of beholding Bhagavan Ramana, moving in His presence and sitting at His feet, is mukti enough for us.'
"Lest this should dishearten and leave the devotees of later years languishing at having missed this blessing, she would quickly add: 'The very fact of your having been drawn, in spite of His physical absence, reveals that you are all a chosen few.'
"She would further add, 'Those who came to Him after seeing Him once are great indeed. But greater still are those who have been drawn to Him even without seeing Him.'
"That which capped them all, causing a joyous thrill in the hearts of women devotees, was the remark of Sri Bhagavan, recalled by her: 'The penance that women observe in Arunachala bears fruits greater and quicker', quoting the example of Devi Herself who claimed the very half of Siva by observing severe penance here."
***
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai: Verse 16.
Verse 1468 of Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai:
Aniya theivam thozhal kallaath thieva kaRpaal
Inidhu peyya puyalai eval koLath
thakkeer
Munimai mukataaya muzhu moothaRijnar aayum
Anaadhimala muthaviyal paaleyum
anRi
Manidha uruvaai maNNil vanthu mala
petha
Annadhaiyai nangu aaLumam avathaara
naaLaalum
Punitha ramanan kamala poonthaaL
kazhooum
Punitha neeradi poliyelor
Embaavaai.
Prof. K. Swaminathan:
By chastity and faith divine
You have gained the power to
tame the storm.
The crown of Seers, the Sage
Supreme,
The Self, for ever pure and free,
Is born on earth in human form.
To save us helpless orphans, free
us
From our sins. He has come to us.
On this, His birthday, in the
holy water
That bathe His Holy Feet,
Bathe and shine, O maidens.
Muruganar says 'aniya deivam thozhal kalla theiva kaRpaal'.
Sri Bhagavan never worshipped anyone other than Arunachala /Arunachaleswasra. This is called 'chastity divine'. In ancient Tamizh literature, it is said that wives shall worship only their husbands and not even gods. This is called puRanthozhak kaRpu, the chastity, by which no one other husband is worshipped. So also was
Sri Bhagavan. Arunachala was His atma. He never worshipped anyone other than Atma, Arunachala.
Muruganar further says, let us bathe in the waters that have bathed His Holy Feet. The water with which Sri Bhagavan washed His feet, were enough for him to bathe. He also says the same to the maidens. We, the devotees, the helpless orphans should bathe in the water with which He washed His feet and that is enough to remove our sins.
After coming to Sri Bhagavan, Muruganar never composed any poem in praise of others. Even when Dr. U.Ve. Swaminatha Iyer, Raghava Iyengar, Chengalvaraya Pillai and others passed away, despite persuasion, he never composed poems in praise of them.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vivekachoodamani:
Talks No. 406:
.......
.......
Devotee: Nevertheless, the mind proves to be cord against attempts to sink it.
Maharshi: What does it matter if the mind is active? It is so only on the substratum of the Self. Hold the Self even during mental activities.
Devotee: I cannot go within sufficiently deep.
Maharshi: It is wrong to say so. Where are you now if not in the Self? Where should you go? All that is necessary is the stern belief that you are the Self. Say rather that the other activities throw a veil on you.
Devotee: Yes, it is so.
Maharshi: That means that the conviction is weak.
Devotee: I understand that the 'I' is only artificial (krtrima), my attempts at realizing the real 'I' are unavailing because the artificial 'I' is brought into action for realizing the other.
Maharshi: Viveka Chudamani makes it clear that the artificial 'I' of the Vijnana Kosa is a projection and through it one must look to
the signficance (Vachya) of "I", the true principle.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Viveka Chudamani:
Talks No. 619:
An Andhra gentleman read out a verse from the Viveka Chudamani setting forth the sense of the Maitreyi Brahmana of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad and asked the meaning of Atma which occurred there.
Maharshi: The Self.
Devotee: Is not prema (love) for something else?
Maharshi: The desire for happiness (Sukha Prema) is a proof of the ever existing happiness of the Self. Otherwise how can desire for it arise in you? If headache was natural to human beings, no one would try to get rid of it. But everyone that has a headache tries to get rid of it, because he has known a time when he had no headache. He desires only that which is natural to him. So too he desires happiness because happiness is natural to him. Being natural, it is not acquired. Man's attempts can only be to get rid of misery. If that be done the ever present bliss is felt. The primal bliss is obscured by the non Self, which is synonymous with non bliss or misery. Duhkha nasam = Sukha prapti, loss of unhappiness amounts to gain of happiness. Happiness mixed with misery is only misery. When misery is eliminated then the ever present bliss is said to be gained. Pleasure which ends in pain is misery. Man wants to eschew such pleasure. Pleasures are priya, moda and pramoda. When a desired object is near at hand, there arises priya. When it is taken possession of, moda arises. When it is being enjoyed pramoda prevails. The reason for the pleasurableness of these states is that one thought excludes all others, and then this single thought also merges into the Self. These states are enjoyed in the Anandamaya kosa only. As a rule Vijnanamaya kosa prevails on waking. In deep sleep all thoughts disappear and the state of obscuration is one of bliss. There the prevailing body is the Anandamaya. These sheaths are not the core, which is interior to all these. It lies beyond waking, dream and deep sleep. That is the Reality and consists of true bliss (Nijananda).
continued....
Sri Bhagavan and Viveka Chudamani:
Talks No. 619 - continues...
Devotee: Is not hatha yoga necessary for the inquiry into the Self?
Maharshi: Each oned finds some one method suitable for himself, because of latent tendencies (purva samskara).
Devote: Can hatha yoga be accomplished at my age?
Maharshi: Why do you think of all that? Because you think it exterior to yourself you desire it and try for it. But do you not exist all along? Why do you leave yourself and go after something external?
Devotee: It is said in Aparoksha-
Anubhuti that hatha yoga is a necessary aid for enquiry into the
Self.
Maharshi: The hatha yogis claim to keep the body fit so that the enquiry may be effected without obstacles. They also say that life must be prolonged so that the enquiry may be carried out to a successful end. Furthermore, there are those who use some medicines (Kaya Kalpa) with that end in view. Their favorite example is: the screen must be perfect before the painting is begun. Yes, but which is the screen and which is the painting? According to them the body is the screen and the inquiry into the Self is the painting. But is not the body itself a picture on the screen, the Self?
Devotee: But hatha yoga is so much spoken of as an aid.
Maharshi: Yes. Ever great pandits well versed in Vedanta continue the practice of it. Otherwise their minds will not subside. So you may say it is useful for those who cannot otherwise still the mind.
Devotee: Saguna upasana (worship of personal god) is said to be imperfect. It is also said that nirguna upasana (devotion to the impersonal) is hard and risky. I am fit for the former only. What is to be done?
Maharshi: The Saguna merges into the nirguna in long run. The saguna purifies the mind and takes one to the final goal. The afflicted one, the seeker of knowledge, and the seeker of gains are all dear to God. But the Jnani is the Self of God.
****
R.Subramanian/Friends,
Yes, I recall the incident of Sri sAradA mA sitting on that rock,when she had been to bangalore.In chennai math as well there is a fenced garden opposite the Old chapel marking the area where The Holy mother had set foot.
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
"He never worshipped anyone other than Atma, Arunachala."
Is there any thing else to be worshipped other than what is!By whatever name it is called,everyone is worshipping the one God only.
The word 'KaRpu' in tamil means what is 'Taught'-kaRpikka paduvadhu kaRpu-'That which is taught and by which one abides is kaRpu'.This includes 'chastity' as well.This is a discipline that is related to the mind.In siddha terminology,they call the various stages of spiritual evolution as 'kAmadhenu,kaRpagam and ChintAmani'-these refer to the three stages mind subject to desire,Mind subject to discipline to free it from desire and lastly when the mind is free of desire.
kaRpu is an intermediate stage and cannot be attributed to Sages.
As Sri sarada Devi said so beautifully-'No one is a stranger in this world'.If that be the outlook,to hold onto some 'pet' idea of God is unbecoming and however 'chaste' it may seem,is still a limitation to be overcome.
The spiritual stories are there to emphasize the idea of 'steadiness' but it is still a thing of the 'mind' and has nothing to do with the Self or God per se.
Namaskar.
Dear hema,
Worshipping the Self is being the Self. Muruganar uses it as poetic
expression that Sri Bhagavan was chaste worshipping only Atma.
One can also conclude that Sri Bhagavan never worshipped any saguna brahman and He considered Atma as Arunachala which for Him, a
Nirguna Brahman. Sri Bhagavan treated Arunachaleswara as His Father and informed Him of His arrival as soon as He landed. Thereafter He hardly went two or three times to the Temple.
But at the same time, He never discouraged worship of saguna brahman, gods in various forms, and He said, Saguna takes you to Nirguna.
Once when some one asked Him, when He was looking at Arunachala, 'Swami, Are you looking at Arunachala?, He answered: I am looking at Atma.
****
KaRpu invariably denotes the chastity of a housewife. Poet Subrahmanya Bharati says: If chastity is kept as a yard stick, then we shall keep it both for men and women. Why only for women? As you know the poet worked for the equality of men and women.
It may also mean that which is taught. In Tamizh one word denotes
many meanings.
R.Subramanian,
"Poet Subrahmania Bharati says: If chastity is kept as a yard stick, then we shall keep it both for men and women. Why only for women?"
Well,what I have posted is by Sage TGN who comes in the lineage of Subramania Bharati!
kaRpu,Chastity as an ideal has been 'Taught' to women and not to men.
In tamil words have some linkage to the 'Root' and so it is in Sanskrit.
Where is the question of looking at 'Atma'!Please crosscheck and it seems to be quite unlike Sri Bhagavan to say so.
Namaskar.
Happy New Year Friends.
Dont forget to stop once in a while, look back and enjoy the moment.
-Z
Sri Bhagavan and Viveka Chudamani:
Talks No. 624:
A devotee asked Sri Bhagavan: With every thought, the subject and the object appear and disappear. Does not the 'I' disappear when the subject disappears thus? If that be so, how can the quest if the 'I' proceed?
Maharshi: The subject (knower) is only a mode of mind. Though the mode (vritti) passes, the Reality behind it does not cease. The background of the mode is the 'I' in which the mind modes arise and sink.
Devotee: After describing the Self as srota, (hearer) manta (thinker),
Vijnanata (knower), etc., it is again described as asrota, amanta, avijnata, non hearer, non thinker,
non knower etc., Is it so?
Maharshi: Just so. The common man is aware of himself only when the modifications arise in the intellect (vijnamaya) is called a kosa or sheath. When pure awareness is left over it is itself the Chit (Self) or the Supreme. To be in one's natural state on the subsidence of thoughts is bliss. If that bliss be transient --arising and setting - then it is only the sheath of bliss (Anandamaya Kosa), not the pure Self. What is needed is to fix the attention on the pure 'I' after the subsidence of all thoughts and not to lose hold of it. This has to be described as an extremely subtle thought; else it cannot be spoken of at all, since it is no other than the Real Self. Who is to speak of it, to whom and how?
This is well explained in the Kaivalyam and Viveka Chudamani. Thus though in sleep, the awareness of the Self is not lost, the ignorance of the jiva is not affected by it. For this ignorance to be destroyed this subtle state of mind (vritti jnanam) is necessary. In the sunshine cotton does not burn. But if the cotton is placed under a lens, it catches fire and is consumed by the rays of the Sun passing through the lens. So too, though awareness of the Self is present at all times, it is not inimical to ignorance. If by meditation the subtle state of thought is won, then ignorance is destroyed. Also in Viveka Chudamani: ativa sukshmama paramatama tattvam na sthoola drishtya (the exceedingly subtle
Supreme Self cannot be seen by the gross of eye) and esha svayam jyotirasesha sakshi (this is the Self shining and witnesses all).
This subtle mental state is not a modification of mind called vritti. Because the mental states are of two kinds. One is the natural state and the other is a transformation into forms of objects. The first is the truth and the other is according to the doer (kartru tantra). When the latter perishes, jale kataka renuvat (like the cleaning nut paste in water) the former will remain over.
The means for this end is meditation. Though this is with the triad of distinction (triputi) it will finally end in pure awareness (jnanam). Meditation needs effort. Jnanam is effortless. Meditation can be done or not done, or wrongly done, Jnanam is not so. Meditation is described as kartru tantra (as doer's own), Jnanam as Vastu-tantra (the Supreme's own.).
*****
salutations to all:
on this occasion when one keeps hearing all & sundry chant the cliche of 'happy new year', here is a beautiful verse from bhagavAn's uLLadhu nArpadhu i'm reminded of:
(both the 'dh' and 'th' here are similar to the soft equivalents of 'd' and 't' of samskrta):
verse 15 of uLLadhu nArpadhu:
நிகழ்வினைப் பற்றி யிறப்பெதிர்வு நிற்ப
நிகழ்கா லவையு நிகழ்வே - நிகழ்வொன்றே
யின்றுண்மை தேரா திறப்பெதிர்வு தேரவுன
லொன்றின்றி யெண்ண வுனல்
[nikazhvinai paRRi iRappu ethirvu niRpa
nikazhkAl avaiyum nikazhvE - nikazhvu onRE
inRu uNmai thErAdhu iRappu ethirvu thEra unal
onRu inRi eNNa unal]
(it's only from the stand of the 'present' that both the 'past' and the 'future' are understood. when the 'past' happened, it was then viewed as the 'present' and when the 'future' happens, it will then be viewed as the 'present'. thus, it's only the 'present' which is all these three states of time. hence, to not find the truth in the 'present' but ponder over the 'past' or hope for the 'future' is the like attempting to count (number of zeros?) ignoring the '1'!)
wish you all the 'present' :-)))
s,
"நிகழ்வினைப் பற்றி யிறப்பெதிர்வு நிற்ப
நிகழ்கா லவையு நிகழ்வே - நிகழ்வொன்றே
யின்றுண்மை தேரா திறப்பெதிர்வு தேரவுன
லொன்றின்றி யெண்ண வுனல்"
nikazhvinai paRRi iRappu ethirvu niRpa
nikazhkAl avaiyum nikazhvE - nikazhvu onRE
inRu uNmai thErAdhu iRappu ethirvu thEra unal
onRu inRi eNNa unal
Friend,I have not studied this work of Sri Bhagavan.As I read this post,this is what suggests itself to me:
'Nigazhvu'-means 'happening'.
It seems to me that the past,present and future are simply based on 'happening'.Sri Bhagavan seems to be saying that while the past and future are based on 'happening',the present is also a happening only-All these are based on change and in time.
Rather than holding onto Truth that is sans any happening,to come to terms with past and future is like unto counting without a 'unit'(for counting).
-----------------------------------
So ,wish you all not the 'present' but the Presence that is beyond Past,Present and Future,which is ever present :)
Namaskar.
s/Friends,
How is it then Sri Bhagavan is 'counting' the verses as 'Forty'- 'uLLadu nARpadu'?Each of these verses reveals nothing but Truth,so it qualifies for True Count!
Namaskar.
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai, Verse 17.
Verse 1469 of Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai:
Nadhamorthe vindhu naatamorthe
naliyum
Pedhamaak kaatchi meiyaai peduRaathu
or mudhalaam
Podhavaan meipuraNap poonRaviyalbunth
theritthaan
Needhamath thedu neRi netip payanaaha
Meedhamaa nittha chittha
meiporuLaam Venkatavan
Bhoodhamaa vedha puruzhan nidham
aadu avan
Padha tirtham padinthadelor
Embaavai.
Prof. K. Swaminathan:
Naada, sound, and bindhu, seed,
These we know and we know too
The various false phenomena
That perish, but we are not
deceived.
The real Being that abides behind
All false appearances, their source
And meaning, the heaven of Pure
Awareness,
This He has revealed,
Venkata, the eternal Self,
The end result of neti, neti,
The Vedas' life eternally dancing
Bathe in the bliss at His Feet,
O maidens.
This verse again speaks of the glory of the Guru's feet. The feet is beyond all the false phenomena, including, nada and bindhu (See
Arunagiri Natha's Nada vindhu kalaathee Namo namah |). It is in
Vedas (the purport of Vedas) and is also beyond them. Again Arunagiri Natha says in Seer pada Vahuppu, the glory of the feet: MaRaiyin nadu mudhal mudivil maNam naaRum seer adiye! The feet of Muruga are in the beginning, middle and end of the Vedas.
Muruganar also says in Padamalai, Verse 551:
The Vedas and Agamas, despite elaborating in greater and greater detail, are eventually compelled by Padam to lament, 'This (Padam) is beyond us.'
****
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 95:
A question was raised as follows by Major A.W. Chadwick:-
Mr. Edward Carpenter, a certain mystic, has written in a book that he had Self Realization, on some occasions and that its effects lasted sometimes afterwards, only to be gradually lost. Whereas Sri Ramana Gita says, 'Granthi (knot =
bondage) snapped once, is snapped for ever.' In the case of this mystic, the bondage seems to have persisted even after Self Realization. How can it be so?
The Maharshi cited Kaivalya as follows:
The disciple, after realizing the all shining, unitary, unbroken state of Being - Knowledge - Bliss,
surrendered himself to the master and humbly prayed to know how he could repay the master's grace. The Master said:
"My reward consists in your permanent unbroken Bliss. Do not slip away from it."
Devotee: Having once experienced the Supreme Bliss, how can one stray away from it?
Maharshi: Oh yes! It happens. The predisposition adhering to him from time immemorial will draw him out and so ignorance overtakes him.
Devotee: What are the obstacles to remaining steady in unbroken Bliss. How can they be overcome?
Maharshi: The obstacles are:
1. Ignorance which is forgetfulness of one's pure being.
2. Doubt which consists in wondering if even the experience was of the Real or the unreal.
3. Error which consists in the 'I am the body' idea, and thinking that the world is real. These are overcome by hearing truth (sravanam) and reflection on it (mananam) and concentration (nididhyasanam).
The Maharshi continued:
Experience is said to be temporary or permanent. The first experience is temporary and by concentration it can be become permanent. In the former, the bondage is not completely destroyed. It remains subtle and reasserts itself in due course. But in the latter it is destroyed root and branch, never to appear again. The expression yogabhrashta in Srimad Bhagavad Gita refers to the former class of men.
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 141:
Mr. Ellppa Chettiar later, quoting
a verse from Kaivalyam asked: Can Jnana, once revealed, takes time to steady itself. The Self is certainly within the direct experience of everyone, but not as one imagines it to be. It is only as it is. This Experience is Samadhi. Just as fire remains without scorching against incantations or other devices and reveals itself when there are no vasanas. Owing to the fluctuations of the vasanas, jnana takes time to steady itself. Unsteady jnana is not enough to check rebirths. Jnana cannot remain unshaken side by side with vasnas. True, that in the proximity of a great master, the vasanas will cease to be active, the mind becomes still and samadhi results, similar to fire not scorching because of other devices. Thus the disciple gains true knowledge and right experience in the presence of the master. To remain unshaken in it further efforts are necessary. He will know it to be his real Being and thus be liberated even while alive. Samadhi with closed eyes is really good, but one must go further until it is realized that actionlessness and action are not hostile to each other. Fear of loss of samadhi while one is active is the sign of ignorance. Samadhi must be the natural life of everyone. There is a state beyond our efforts and effortlessness. Until it is realized effort is necessary.
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 172:
.....
.....
Maharshi said: He who engages in investigation starts holding on to himself, asks Who am I? and the Self becomes clear to him.
The visitor further asked: Will the knowledge gained by direct experience be lost afterwards?
Maharshi: Kaivalya Navaneetam says it may be lost. Experience gained without rooting out all the vasanas cannot remain steady. Efforts must be made to eradicate the vasanas. Otherwise rebirth after death takes place. Some say direct experience results from hearing from one's master; others say it is from reflection; yet others says from one pointedness and also from samadhi. Though they look different on the surface, ultimately they mean the same.
Knowledge can remain unshaken only after all the vasanas are rooted out.
****
salutations to all:
Ravi:
["...'Nigazhvu'-means 'happening'.
It seems to me that the past,present and future are simply based on 'happening'...So ,wish you all not the 'present' but the Presence that is beyond Past,Present and Future, which is ever present..."]
i simply attempted to translate the bare meaning given in lakshmaNa sarmA's commentary; if 'iRappu' and 'ethirvu' stand for the 'past' and the 'future', then i treated the 'nigazhvinai' as the 'present'! but your way of looking at it as 'happening' is more broader, and perhaps, better :-).
yes, let me re-phrase my 'wish' - wish you all the 'presence' in the 'present' :-)))
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 363:
......
......
Devotee: Self Realization is so illusory. How can it be made permanent?
Maharshi: the Self can never be illusory. It is the only Reality. That which appears will also disappear and is therefore impermanent. The Self never appears and disappears and is therefore permanent.
Devotee: Yes -- true. You know that, in the Theosophical Society, they meditate to seek the masters to guide them.
Maharshi: The Master is within. Meditation is meant for the removal of ignorance, of the wrong idea that he is without. If he be a stranger whose advent you await, he is bound to disappear also. Where is the use of transient being like that?
However, as long as you think that you are an individual or that you are the body, so long the master is also necessary and he will appear with a body. When this wrong identification ceases, the master will be found to be the Self.
There is a stanza in Kaivalyam:
"My Lord! You had remained as my Self within, protecting me in all my past incarnations. Now, by your Grace, you have manifested yourself as my master and revealed yourself as the Self."
****
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 425:
Maharshi: Will power or any othedr is gained by practice (abhyasa).
Devotee: Is success not dependent on Guru's Grace?
Maharshi: Yes. It is. Is not your practice itself due to such Grace? The fruits are the result of the practice and follow it automatically. There is a stanza in Kaivalyam which says, "O Guru! You
have always been with me, watching me through several incarnations, and ordaining my course until I was liberated." The Self manifests externally as Guru when occasion arises; otherwise He is always within, doing the needful.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 456:
"Seek the company of saints by all means; but do not remain indefinitely with them. The adage, familiarity breeds contempt applies even to their case," writes Swami Ramdas in the course of an article in The Vision.
........
........
This cutting was read out to Sri Bhagavan. He listened and remained silent. He was requested to say if contact with saints could be danger. Sri Bhagavan then quoted a Tamizh stanza which says that contact with Guru should be kept up till Videhamukti (being disembodied). Again He is asked where is the Satpurusha? "He is within." Then He quoted another stanza meaning:
"O Master, who has been within me in all my past incarnations and Who manifested as a human being, only to speak the language understood by me and lead me."
*
Guruvaai varuvaai aruLvaai Guhane!
- Saint Arunagiri Natha.
******
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 499:
The Swami of Sri Ramakrishna Mission, had more questions to ask:
Swamiji, I went up the Hill to see the asramas in which you lived in your youth. I have also read your life. May I know if you did not then feel that there is God to whom you should pray or that you should practice something in order to reach this state?
Maharshi: Read the life and you will understand. Jnana and ajnana are of the same degree of truth. That is, both are imagined by the ignorant. That is not true from the standpoint of the Jnani.
Devotee: Is a Jnani capable or likely to commit sins?
Maharshi: An ajnani sees someone as a jnani and identifies him with the body. Because he does not know the Self and, mistakes his body for the Self, he extends the same mistake to the state of the jnani. The jnani is therefore considered to be the physical frame.
Again, since the ajnani, though he is not the doer, yet imagines himself to be the doer and considers the actions of the body his own; he thinks the jnani to be similarly acting when the body is active. But the jnani himself knows the Truth and is not confounded. The state of a jnani cannot be determined by the ajnani and therefore the question troubles only the ajnani and never does it arise for the jnani. If he is a doer he must determine the nature of the actions. The Self cannot be the doer. Find out who is the doer and the Self is revealed.
Devotee: There could be no advaita in actions. That is how the questions arose.
Maharshi: But the stanza (from Kaivalyam) says there should be. This 'do' is applicable only to the practicer and not the accomplished ones.
Devotee: Yes, I quite see it. Moreover, advaita cannot be practiced in one's dealings with the Guru. For, consistently with it, he cannot receive instructions.
Maharshi: Yes, the Guru is within and not without. A Tamizh saint has said, "O Guru! always abiding within me but manifesting now in human form only to guide and protect me!" What is within as the Self manifests in due course as Guru in human shape.
*****
David, S. and Ravi,
Thanks for your replies.
David,
I guess this is to be taken the way Bhagavan explained to Papaji on the Heart centre to be on right.
S.,
I am not sure if you got what I meant or I dint get your point at all :).
AFAIK, when doing enquiry, we are to trace the origin of the mind or the "i am the body" or the "i" thought. By this, i understand it to mean that we are to trace "i" thought, without assuming its origin; that we are not to assume it birth place or have any conceptions around it. So, the starting point is the thought and not a place in the body. But Bhagavan's reply seemed to suggest otherwise. Hence my question.
I now have a better understansding on the sentence now, as I pondered more over it and went thru you guys' replies. Thanks.
Dear S., Ravi.,
Verse 15 of ULLadu NaRpadu:
Nihazhvinaip paRRi...
I could somewhat understand this verse only after some reading of initial English renderings, and then Nochur Venkataraman's Satsangh in 2007 and finally Michael James's commentary, in his book Happiness and Art of Being. Nochur told us not to take notes but listen. We listened. There was some feeling that the purport went into my heart. Later, I got it further clarified with Michael James' commentary.
Quote:
Without first imagining the basic dimensions of time and space, we cannot form any image or thought in our mind, and hence these dimensions are inherent in each and every thought that we think.
We think that we perceive time and space outside ourself, and that we are just limited creatures who exist for a very short period within the vast duration of time and who occupy a very small part of the vast expanse of space. This perception, however, is just an illusion, because like every other perception, we experience the perception of time and space only within ourself, in our own mind or consciousness.
Though time and space appear to exist outside us, we have no way of knowing that they actually do exist outside of or independent of ourself, because all that we know or can ever know of time and space is only the images of them that we have formed within our own mind by our power of imagination. Therefore, like everything that we perceive within time and space, time and space themselves are merely mental images, conceptions or thoughts.
The conceptual dimension of time and space are centered respectively around of the notions of the PRESENT MOMENT, "NOW" and the present place, "HERE'.
The concepts of past and future exist only with reference to the concept of the PRESENT MOMENT, which is the central point in time.
What was once present is now past, and what will once be present is now future. Both past and present and the future are the present when they occur.
But more importantly, the past and the future are both concepts that exist only in the present moment. Therefore, relatively speaking, the present is the ONLY POINT IN TIME, WHICH IS REAL. Though all that passes by it is constantly changing, the present moment itself ALWAYS REMAINS WITHOUT UNDERGOING ANY CHANGE, AND HENCE IT IS THE STATIC GATEWAY through which we may pass from the illusion of ever changing time to the Reality of our
ever unchanging Being.
As Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 15 of ULLadu NaRpadu:
The past and future stand (only by)
clinging to the present (nigazh vinai paRRi). While occurring, they too are only the present. (nigzah kaalam avaiyum nigazhve), i.e when
those things were happening, they were also the present. The present (is) the only one (point in time that truly exists) nigazhvonRe inRu uNmai. (Therefore) trying to know the past and future without knowing
the truth of the present (is like) trying to count without (knowing the fundamental number, the unity) one (of which all other numbers are merely multiples or fractions).
continued...
Verse 15 of ULLadu NaRpadu:
Michael James:
continues...
Quote:
The last phrase of the second foot of the verse, 'nihazhvu onRe', which literally means 'present (is) one', with a stress (the terminating letter e) added to the word onRu or one implying only one, can be interpreted in many ways. Ekaaram theRRam - the letter e added at the end of one word means the determined conclusion.
It can be taken to mean, 'the present is the only one time', 'only the present truly exists', or 'all these three times are only the one present, NOW.' However, in effect, all these three interpretations mean the same thing.
Since while occurring each moment in time, is the present, all moments in time, whether past, present or future, are only the present moment. The present is therefore the only one moment in time that TRULY EXISTS. Hence the three divisions of time, past, present and future, are truly not there, but only one - the one ever present moment, NOW.
In Kali Venba version, Sri Bhagavan added two extra words, nitamum mannum, which mean 'which always endures'. Thus He further emphasized the fact that the present moment is ever present, that at all times are present while they occur, and that the present is therefore the ONLY TIME that actually exists, - the only time that we experience directly and actually. All other times both past and future are just thoughts (or anxieties) that occur in this present moment.
Unquote
Nochur Venkataraman after explaining all these in his Satsangh of 2007 added that:
NOW or PRESENT does not permit the mind. Mind has no entry into NOW. By the time mind catches the NOW it becomes past. Hence NOW is transcendent of mind, beyond mind.
Only the Jnanis who have conquered the mind, can stay in NOW. That is Divinity Here and Now. Forever, Here and Now.
That is why verse 16 says: If we are only bodies (minds), we are caught up in time and space. But are we bodies (minds)? Now, then, always -- here and now and everywhere -- we are the same. We exist, timeless and space less we.
Without us there is not time or space.
******
Hi David,
Was going thru one other older posts and came across "Maurice Frydman" project. Got curious - When will the book be ready and out?
salutations to all:
Maneesha:
["...AFAIK, when doing enquiry, we are to trace the origin of the mind or the "i am the body" or the "i" thought. By this, i understand it to mean that we are to trace "i" thought, without assuming its origin; that we are not to assume it birth place or have any conceptions around it. So, the starting point is the thought and not a place in the body. But Bhagavan's reply seemed to suggest otherwise. Hence my question ..."]
it took me some time to figure our what's "AFAIK"! :-) when you said '"i am the body" or the "i" thought', aren't you agreeing to their equivalence? it's not as if there is a 'mind' which has a 'body' or vice-versa but rather the 'mind' is the 'body' because nobody has ever heard of a 'mind' independent of a 'body' :-). now, without denying anything you said, if the problem is the 'i'm-the-body' idea, then for a starting point, the quest has to commence from where & what the 'problem' is... of course, this doesn't mean that the 'self' is to be found in the body! as to where or what this 'self' is, for now, i don't know :-), but as the best place to begin the investigation is the 'scene' of the 'crime', the quest for the 'criminal' commences 'here' (that the 'criminal' never existed is something one has to discover & need not at all be assumed as part of the 'search') :-)
R.Subramanian,
Nochur Venkatraman is indeed an earnest sadhaka and has covered many of Sri Bhagavan's works in his Talks.
I have not heard his talk on uLLadu nArpadu.
I have not read uLLadu nARpadu.Coming to this comment by (Michael james?):
"But more importantly, the past and the future are both concepts that exist only in the present moment. Therefore, relatively speaking, the present is the ONLY POINT IN TIME, WHICH IS REAL."
The Present is as much real(or unreal) as the Past or Future-being part and parcel of the same chain.What gives it a seeming Reality is the 'Presence'.
The Other thing that is to be noted is that it is not as if the Past,Present and Future is a straight line.It is more of a vicious circle-where anyone can become the other at various points in time.One may say that the Past is what lead to the Present and onto the Future.The Future is what runs through the Present and becomes the Past.
The only way to get out of this wheel of Karma that seems to roll(unroll as well)in time is to move in a perpendicular direction towards the Centre or God or Self.
I have often felt that the Original is always clearer than the interpretations.
Let us look at what Sri Bhagavan has said:
நிகழ்வினைப் பற்றி யிறப்பெதிர்வு நிற்ப
நிகழ்கா லவையு நிகழ்வே - நிகழ்வொன்றே
யின்றுண்மை தேரா திறப்பெதிர்வு தேரவுன
லொன்றின்றி யெண்ண வுனல்
nikazhvinai paRRi iRappu ethirvu niRpa
nikazhkAl avaiyum nikazhvE - nikazhvu onRE
inRu uNmai thErAdhu iRappu ethirvu thEra unal
onRu inRi eNNa unal
The Third line says-Nigazh onRe inRu means -to be without even a single Happening-and
uNmai tERAdhu= not to discern Truth
To elect(hang onto)the past and future is like unto counting without a unit.
----------------------------------
Without going into concepts of Space ,time etc we can understand it quite simply.
What is the central thing in Sri Ramanasramam?It is Sri Bhagavan's Presence.The Entire ashram has come up over a period of time,many devotees have come and gone,events have flown but untouched by this stream of happenings is the sheer presence of Bhagavan.This Presence has nothing whatsoever to do with all these events although it is what lends value to the happenings.
Likewise,the Presence of the self is what lends the Present moment its seeming reality and in itself it is not subject to past,present or Future.It remains untouched by the Happenings.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
Subramanian:
i've lot of respect for your knowledge of tamizh, and so it sounded a little weird to me that you understood the 15th verse of uLLadhu nArpadhu only with the commentary of michael james! i also have lot of regard for michael james' expertise in tamizh but i must add that he tends to elaborate in 100 lines what otherwise could have been succinctly put in less than 10 lines! not to criticise, but just couldn't help observing its contrast with that of bhagavAn whose compositions are extraordinarily precise & excellently clear :-)
lakshmaNa sarmA's commentary on bhagavAn's uLLadhu nArpadhu, which also had the blessing of bhagavAn (in a rare instance) interceding for its publication, is such a lucid work that it doesn't require any discourse or commentary to make it any clearer! in fact, the more one studies it, one will also see that with a little tamizh & a little sAdhanA, bhagavAn's compositions may need no commentary at all :-). if we agree that bhagavAn said what he meant & meant what he said, these beautiful verses simply reveal themselves :-)
salutations to all:
Subramanian/Ravi:
["...Nochur Venkataraman after explaining all these in his Satsangh of 2007 added that: NOW or PRESENT does not permit the mind. Mind has no entry into NOW. By the time mind catches the NOW it becomes past. ..."]
with all respects to sri nochur, i didn't get what this means! in the lines of the 15th verse, if all there is, is only the 'present', where is the question of the mind being denied entry into that 'present'? this isn't the same as the mind, by its very nature, being unable to dwell 'only' in the 'present'. it doesn't seem to be 'By the time mind catches the NOW' but rather it's the combination of the triad (linear or non-linear has little relevance here!), the before/ now/ after that gives birth to the notion of 'time' to begin with! to the one in the 'present', can there be 'time'?
reminds me of a beautiful poetic construction by prof. svAminAthan in the talk given by him in 1979 on the occasion of bhagavAn's birth centenary and relayed on 'all india radio' - he says: "great things happen when man & mountain meet, and the timeless breaks into time" :-)))
Friends,
An excerpt from Swami Vivekananda's Inspired Talks that is exactly the same as Sri Bhagavan's first two lines ,verse 15,uLLadu nARpadhu.
"The present only is existent. There is no past or future even in thought, because to think it, you have to make it the present. Give up everything, and let it float where it will. This world is all a delusion, do not let it fool you again. You have known it for what it is not, now know it for what it is."
This knowing 'for what it is is' what Sri Bhagavan says 'uNmai therdhal'.It is this that gives a sense of 'Existence' to the Present moment.
Namaskar.
Friends,
'Inspired Talks' is one of the most inspirational utterances of Swamiji.Every utterance of his bursts like a bomb shell.Here is an excerpt:
There is a vast difference between saying "food, food" and eating it, between saying "water, water" and drinking it. So by merely repeating the words "God, God" we cannot hope to attain realisation. We must strive and practise.
Only by the wave falling back into the sea can it become unlimited, never as a wave can it be so. Then after it has become the sea, it can become the wave again and as big a one as it pleases. Break the identification of yourself with the current and know that you are free.
True philosophy is the systematising of certain perceptions. Intellect ends where religion begins. Inspiration is much higher than reason, but it must not contradict it. Reason is the rough tool to do the hard work; inspiration is the bright light which shows us all truth. The will to do a thing is not necessarily inspiration. . . .
Progression in Maya is a circle that brings you back to the starting point; but you start ignorant and come to the end with all knowledge. Worship of God, worship of the holy ones, concentration and meditation, and unselfish work, these are the ways of breaking away from Maya's net; but we must first have the strong desire to get free. The flash of light that will illuminate the darkness for us is in us; it is the knowledge that is our nature — there is no "birthright", we were never born. All that we have to do is to drive away the clouds that cover it."
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Nigazh onRe enRu uNmai - means only the Present and not present happening. This is my understanding.
Again Nighazhvinai - is not present action or happenstance but it means
"holding the Present only"
vinai, actually it "inai" is here chaariyai. Kaalathinai - kaalathu + inai. Pozhuthinai - Pozhuthu + inai.
****
Dear S.,
Mind can not capture NOW. This is my
understanding. This is of course not in the verse, but Nochur said it to highlight, that mind always have thoughts of happiness or regret of the past and/or thoughts of planning or anxiety. Mind can never rests in NOW. Only those who have transcended the mind can remain in NOW. This state is the real state of silence, where there is no mind, and therefore no thoughts.
This is "Irunthathanai Irundhapati
Irunthukaatti" "Showing That as It is." of Sri Dakshinamurti.
You may also refer to Ribhu Gita, Ch.20 (Nome's Edition)
13. Though, due to the accumulated past impressions,
Thoughts may arise that only duality is the absolute truth,
Do not think of duality
As an inerasable nature of dyads.
Rather, consider all of that as unwaveringly
The nondual Supreme Nature.
*
14. Transcending the fickle mind
and such,
Transcending egoity and such
Transcending the transient time....
****
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai: verse 18.
Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai - Verse 1470:
KaiyaRiya maakaLodu kadhalarum
uNdaadi
Neyyum madhuvum negizhntha sezhum
saandhumaLaaiith
Thuyya viyal veRaahith thoyalar
vaai poosalaraai
Iyarodu madhavarum andhaRar
paarparum tham
Seihaiseiyyaar meeLuch chengaluzhik
kaveri
Vaigai mudan neeraadal vaalithanRu
noRpaarku
Meiyarivaananda maya Venkatamam
teerthanRaaL
Poygai neer aadi poliyelor
embaavaai.
Prof. K. Swaminathan:
Clashing with common folk, half
trained
Devotees bathe in Vaigai and Kaveri
With ghee, honey and clay, the
water is dirty.
The bathers and others quarrel.
Without
Performing puja the brahmins and
priests depart!
To us, earnest seekers, these
rivers are not holy.
At Venkata's Feet springs a stream
Perennial of Awareness, Bliss,
In this pure stream, O maidens,
Bathe and shine.
Muruganar says that various 'holy waters' of Vaigai and Kaveri are dirty and here brahmins and priests without puja depart since there is quarrel and confusion. Hence one should seeks the waters of perennial Awareness, Bliss that is flowing at Sri Bhagavan's Feet.
Sri Bhagavan also has said in Verse 5 of ULLadu NaRpadu, Supplement:
Holy rivers, which are only waters and idols which are made of stone and clay are not as mighty as the Sages are. For while they make one pure in course of countless days, the Sage's eyes by a mere glance purify at once.
Again in Verse 4 of the same work, He has said:
Fever is overcome by cool light of moon; want by the good wish yielding Karpaga tree; and sin by the Holy Ganga. Those three - fever and want and sin all flee at the august sight of the peerless Sage.
******
R.Subramanian,
"Nigazh onRe enRu uNmai - means only the Present and not present happening. This is my understanding.
Then it has to be paraphrased into Nighazh onRe uNmai enRu theRadhu'.
Wonder why Sri Bhagavan had said what he has said-'Nigazh onRe inRu'!
One thing we do know is that 'Present moment' is part of time and cannot be Truth.
Since the Present moment is the only time when things happen,so both come to be call as Nigazh-for the present ,and Nighazhvu for happening.'Nigazhkala avaiyum nigazhve'-Whatever belongs to the present moment is also a 'Happening' only.
This same thing split differently may be taken as -'Nigazhum kal avaiyum'-when they(past and Future) happen ,they are in the 'Present' only.
No need to do any hair splitting.Sri Bhagavan says that one should discern Truth that is ever present.One needs to stop counting on thought and its concommitant 'Past,Present and Future'.
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 515:
Devotee: In the explanation given yesterday, it is said that the removal of avarana results in the annhilation of the karma sarira. That is clear. But how is the gross body considered to fall off too?
Maharshi: The vasanas are of two kinds: bandha hetu (causing bondage) and bhoga hetu (only giving enjoyment). The Jnani has transcended the ego and therefore all the causes of bondage are inoperative, Bandha hetu is thus at an end and prarabdha (past karma) remians a bhoga vasana (to give enjoyment) only. Therefore it was said that the sukshma sarira alone survives Jnana. Kaivalyam says that sanchita karma (stored karma) is at an end simultaneously with the rise of Jnana. That agami (karma now collecting) is no longer operative owing to the absence of the sense of bondage, and that prarabdha will be exhausted by enjoyment, bhoga only. Thus the last one will end in course of time and then the gross body also falls away with it.
Sarira traya (the three bodies) and karma traya (the three karmas) are mere phrases meant for the delectation of debaters. A Jnani is not affected by any of them. An aspirant is instructed to find who he is. If he does so, he will take no interest in discussing such matters as the above. Find the Self and rest in Peace.
****
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 612:
Mr. Hick Riddingh and Mr. Ward Jackson asked some questions.
......
......
......
Devotee: If the ego is unreal and troublesome why did we take so much pains to develop it?
Maharshi: Its growth and the trouble consequent on such growth make you look for the cause of it all. Its development is for its own destruction.
Devotee: Is it not said that one must be like a child before one advances spiritually?
Maharshi: Yes, because the ego is not developed in the child.
Devotee: I mean exactly the same. We could have remained like the child instead of having developed the ego.
Maharshi: The state of the child is meant. No one can take lessons from the child for Realization of the Self. The Master's state is like the state of the child. There is a difference between the two. The ego is potential in the child, where it is totally destroyed in the saint.
Devotee: Yes. I see, I understand it now.
Maharshi: The Reality is alone eternal. To understand it is good enough. But the old ignorance should not return. A good watch must be kept lest the present understanding of the Truth suffers later on.
a disciple served a master for a long time and realized the Self. He was in Bliss and wanted to express his gratitude to the master. He was in tears of joy and his voice choked when he spoke. He said, "What a wonder that I did not know my very Self all these years? I suffered long and you so graciously helped me to realize the Self. How shall I repay your Grace? It is not in my power to do it! The Master replied: Well, well. Your repayment consists in not lapsing into ignorance over again but in continuing in the state of your real Self." (Kaivalyam)
****
salutations to all:
Subramanian/Others:
["...Mind can not capture NOW. This is my understanding...Mind can never rests in NOW..."]
i agree that the mind cannot rest 'only' in the 'now' but does that mean the mind is not in the 'now'? let me ask this - haven't you ever basked in the silent presence of bhagavAn's sannidhi? haven't you ever got absorbed hearing a melodious song? haven't you ever got engrossed reading a sublime piece of writing/poem? haven't you ever got involved watching a thrilling drama /moving film? if so, wasn't it the mind plunging in the 'now'??? :-)
Sri Bhagavan and Kaivalya Navaneetam:
Talks No. 651:
A.W. Chadwick is copying the English translation of the Tamizh Kaivalya Navaneetam. When he came across some technical terms in it and felt some difficulty in understanding them, he asked Sri Bhagavan about them. Sri Bhagavan said: "Those portions deal with theories of creation. They are not material because the Srutis do not mean to set forth such theories. They mention the theories casually so that the enquirer may please himself if he be so inclined. The truth is that the world appears as a passing shadow in a flood of light. Light is necessary to see the shadow also. The shadow does not deserve any special notice, analysis or discussion. The book deals with the Self and that is its purpose. The discussions on creation may be omitted for the present."
Later, Sri Bhagavan continued: "The Vedanta says that the cosmos springs into view simultaneously with the seer. There is no detailed process of creation. This is said to be Yogapat Srhshti (instantaneous creation). It is quite similar to the creations in the dream where the experiencer springs up simultaneously with the objects of experience. When this is told, some people are not satisfied for they are so rooted in objective knowledge. They seek to find out how there can be sudden creation. They argue that an effect must be preceded by a cause. In short, they desire an explanation for the existence of the world which they see around them. Then the Srutis try to satisfy their curiosity by such theories of creation. This method of dealing with the subject of creation is called Krama Srshti, gradual creation. But the true seeker can be content with Yugapat Srshti --- instantaneous creation."
****
Sri Bhagavan and Vedanta Chudamani:
Talks No. 449:
After Mr. Grant Duff left, there was some reference to his visit to the Asramam. Sri Bhagavan remarked: "Some Sakti draws people from all parts of the globe to this center." A devotee aptly said: "That Sakti is not different from Sri Bhagavan." Sri Bhagavan remarked: "What Sakti drew me here originally? The same Sakti draws others as well."
Sri Bhagavan then narrated three stories, to prove how unswerving Jnani may not show himself in his external appearance.
1) The story of a queen and a king, where the king hid his devotion to Rama and when the queen found it out, he considered himself unworthy of God and so committed suicide It means that one should not openly display one's piety. We may also take that the king told the queen not to make a fuss over his piety and then they lived happily together.
2. The story of Thondaripodi Azhwar.
3. The story of Kadlveli Siddhar.
Sri Bhagavan then mentioned a verse from Vedanta Chudamani. The meaning is as follows:
Although a Jivan mukta associated with body may, owing to his prarabdha, appear to lapse into ignorance or wisdom, yet he is only pure like ether, which is always pure and untouched, whether covered by dense clouds or cleared of clouds by currents of air. He always revels in the Self alone, like a loving wife taking pleasure with her husband alone, though she attends on him with things obtained from others, by way of fortune, as determined by her prarabdha. Though he remains silent like one devoid of learning, yet his supineness is due to the implicit duality of the Vaikhari Vak (spoken words) of the Vedas. But his silence is the highest expression of the realized non duality, which is after all the true content of the Vedas. Though he instructs his disciples, yet he does not pose as a teacher, in the full conviction that the teacher and the disciple are mere conventions born of illusion, maya. And so he continues to utter words (like akasavani). If on the other hand, he mutters words incoherently like a lunatic, it is because his experience is inexpressible like the words of lovers' embrace. If his words are many and fluent like those of an orator, they represent the recollection of his experience, since he is the unmoving non dual One without any desire awaiting fulfillment. Although he may appear grief stricken like any other man in bereavement, yet he evinces just the right love and pity for the senses which he earlier controlled before he realized that they were mere instruments and manifestations of the Supreme Being. When he seems keenly interested in the wonders of the world, he is only ridiculing the ignorance born of the superimposition. If he appears indulging in sexual pleasures, he must be taken to enjoy the ever inherent bliss of the Self, which divided Itself into the Individual Self and the Universal Self, delights in their reunion to regain Its original Nature. If he appears wrathful he means well to the offenders. All his actions should be taken to be only divine manifestations on the plane of humanity. There should not arise even the least doubt as to his being emancipated while yet alive. He lives only for the good of the world.
contd.,
Sri Bhagavan and Vedanta Chudmani:
Talks No. 449 contd.,
Sri Bhagavan now warned the hearers against the mistake of disparaging a Jnani for his apparent conduct and again cited the story of Parikshit. He was a still born child. The ladies cried and appealed to Sri Krishna to save the child. The sages round about wondered how Krishna was going to save the child from the effects of the arrows (apandavstra) of Aswattama. Krishna said, "If the child could be touched by one eternally celibate (nitya brhamachari) the child would be brought to life." Even Suka dared not touch the child. Finding no one among the reputed saints bold enough to touch the child, Krishna went and touched, saying, "If I am eternally celibate, may the child be brought to life." The child began to breathe and later grew up to be Parikshit.
Just consider how Krishna surrounded by 16000 gopis is a brahmachari! Such is the mystery of Jivan mukti. A Jivan mukta is one who does not see anything separate from the Self.
If however a man consciously attempts to display siddhis he will receive only kicks.
*****
Sri Bhagavan and Vedanta Chudamani:
Talks No. 616:
Some devotee was asking about the entity, jivanadi. He asked whether it is an entity or a figment of imagination?
Maharshi after giving some detailed
answer about Jivanadi or atma nadi or para nadi, said about the information given in Garbhopanishad. He also said that Upanishads speak of 101 nadis which spread from the heart, one of them being vital nadi.
After further detailed discussion on these matters, finally said:
"The world is not other than the mind, the mind is not other than the Heart, that is the whole Truth." So the Heart comprises all.
This is what is taught by Svetaketu by the illustration of the seed of a fig tree. The source is a point without any dimensions. It expands as the cosmos on the one hand and as Infinite Bliss on the other. That point is the pivot. From it a single vasana starts, multiplies as the experiencer. "I", experience, and the world. The experiencer and the source are referred to in the mantra. Two birds, exactly alike, arise simultaneously.
He added:
When I stayed in the Skandasramam, I sometimes used to go out and sit on a rock. On one such occasion, there were two or three others with me, including Rangaswami Iyengar. Suddenly we noticed some small moth-like insect shooting up like a rocket into the air from the crevice in the rock. Within the twinkling of an eye, it had multiplied itself into millions of moths which formed a cloud and hid the sky from the view. We wondered at it and examined the place from which it shot up. We found out that it was only a pinhole and knew that so many insects could not have issued from it in such a short time.
This is how ahankara (ego) shoots up like a rocket and instantaneously spreads out as the universe.
The Heart is therefore the center. A person can never be away from it. If he is he is already dead. Although Upanishads say that the jiva functions through other centers on different occasions, yet he does not relinquish the Heart. The centers are simply places of business, vide Vedanta Chudamani. The Self is bound to the Heart, like a cow tethered to a peg. The movements are controlled by the length of the rope. All its wanderings are center around the peg.
A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it has come to the end, it seeks another support. While doing so, it holds on with its hind legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body and sways to
and fro before it can hold another. Similarly it is with the Self. It says in the Heart and holds other centers also according to circumstances. But its activities always center around the Heart.
*****
R.Subramanian,
"Muruganar says that various 'holy waters' of Vaigai and Kaveri are dirty and here brahmins and priests without puja depart since there is quarrel and confusion."
I find this an exaggeration and a pretty 'Materialistic' viewpoint,even if it be that of Muruganar.
Sages have all along revered Rivers like the Ganges and kaveri,Mountains like The Himalayas and arunAchala.They sustain and nourish Spiritual seekers since hoary ages.This is why the Ganges is reverently and lovingly addressed as 'Ganga mAi'(Mother Ganges)
As Sri Ramakrishna says in this excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
M: "Sir, suppose one believes in God with form. Certainly He is not the clay image!"
MASTER (interrupting): "But why clay? It is an image of Spirit."
M. could not quite understand the significance of this "image of Spirit". "But, sir," he said
to the Master, "one should explain to those who worship the clay image that it is not God,
and that, while worshipping it, they should have God in view and not the clay image. One
should not worship clay."
God the only real teacher
MASTER (sharply): "That's the one hobby of you Calcutta people - giving lectures and
bringing others to the light! Nobody ever stops to consider how to get the light himself.
Who are you to teach others?
"He who is the Lord of the Universe will teach everyone. He alone teaches us, who has
created this universe; who has made the sun and moon, men and beasts, and all other
beings; who has provided means for their sustenance; who has given children parents and
endowed them with love to bring them up. The Lord has done so many things - will He not
show people the way to worship Him? If they need teaching, then He will be the Teacher.
He is our Inner Guide.
"Suppose there is an error in worshipping the clay image; doesn't God know that through it
He alone is being invoked? He will be pleased with that very worship. Why should you get
a headache over it? You had better try for knowledge and devotion yourself."
It depends on the earnestness of the seeker.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from Swami Vivekananda:
"It has been a trite saying, that idolatry is wrong, and every man swallows it at the present time without questioning. I once thought so, and to pay the penalty of that I had to learn my lesson sitting at the feet of a man who realised everything through idols; I allude to Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Take a thousand idols more if you can produce Ramakrishna Paramhamsas through idol worship, and may God speed you!"
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Regarding Muruganar calling Vaigai and Kaveri as dirty waters....
You must be knowing about Uyarvu
NaviRchi aNi, where the poet says something denigrating about other things/gods etc., to highlight the glory of their own guru or god.
Compare, Tondaripodi Azhwar's Tiru Palli Ezhucchi, Verse 6:
With huge chariots Aditya is waiting, the eleven Rudras are waiting, The peacock riding Muruga is waiting; Martuhs are waiting; Ashta Vasus are waiting. All have come waiting at your doors. Ranganatha, please wake up!
****
(Sri Ramana) Tiruvembavai: Verse 19.
Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai - Verse 1471:
Aravamudham pon aananda Venkatar mei
Aravamudham pon anbanaar punmooral
Aravamudham pon anaganaar kaNNokkam
Aravamudham pon aachiriyar vaai
choRkaL
Aravamudham pon maadhiyaar seepatham
Aravamudham pon aNNalaar
cheerthimaigaL
Aravamudhan nayannaar gunak kadal
paainthu
Aravamudha neer aadelor Embavaai.
Prof. K. Swaminathan:
Like nectar sweet, His comely form,
Like nectar sweet, His gracious
smile,
Like nectar sweet, His piercing
glance,
Like nectar sweet, the Master's
words,
Like nectar sweet, the bliss He
spreads,
In the vast ocean of His Bliss
Dive and bathe, O maidens, and
be happy.
Aravamudhu is a wonderful word in Tamizh. Sri Vaishanavites name the boy child as Aravamudhu. It means the nectarine sweet with which one never gets satiated. Siva and Narayana both are called Aravamudhu in poetry. Saint Manikkavachagar calls Siva: Aravamudhe, aLavilaap pemmane...in Siva Puranam, Tiruvachakam. It occurs also in Nammazhwar's Tiruvai mozhi. But I don't remember the verse.
*****
Sri Bhagavan about Time and Space:
Talks No. 17:
Mr. W.Y. Evan Wentz, an English research scholar of Oxford University came to see Sri Bhagavan.
......
......
Devotee: Which time is most suitable for meditation?
Maharshi: What is time?
Devotee: Tell me what it is!
Maharshi: Time is only an idea. There is only the Reality. Whatever you think it is, it looks like that. If you call it Time, it is time. If you call it existence, it is existence, and so on. After calling it Time, you divide it into days and nights, months, years, hours, minutes, etc., Time is immaterial for the Path of Knowledge. But some of these rules and discipline are good for beginners.
****
Sri Bhagavan about Time and Space:
Dr. Radhakrishna Mukherjee, a well known professor asked some questions:
......
Maharshi: The sattvic mind is in fact the Absolute Consciousness. ...It is the Swarupam. Some say mind arises from Consciousness followed by reflection (abhasa); others say the reflection (abhasa)
arises first followed by the mind. In fact, both are simultaneous.
The Professor asked Sri Bhagavan to extend His Grace to him although he would soon be a thousand miles off. Sri Bhagavan said that time and space are only concepts of mind. But Swarupam lies beyond mind, time and space. Distance does not count in the Self.
*****
R.subramanian,
"You must be knowing about Uyarvu
NaviRchi aNi"
That is understandable ,although all such comparisons are a thing of the mind only.
To call these Holy Rivers as 'Dirty' is in poor taste and associate them with some stray petty quarrel is unbecoming of a devotee of Sri Bhagavan.
Namaskar.
Sri Bhagavan about Time and Space:
Talks No. 127:
The American Engineer asked: "Does distance have any effect upon Grace?"
Maharshi: Time and Space are within us. You are always in your Self. How do time and space affect it?
Devotee: In the radio those who are nearer hear sooner. You are a Hindu, we are Americans. Does it make any difference?
Maharshi: No.
Devotee: Even thoughts are read by others.
Maharshi: That shows all are one.
****
Sri Bhagavan about Time and Space:
Talks No. 311:
......
......
Maharshi: The reincarnations are superimpositions. For example, what happens in a dream? Do you go to the dream world or does it occur in you? Surely the latter. Just the same with incarnations. The ego remains changeless all along. Again, there is no time and space in your sleep. They are concepts which arise after the I-thought has arisen. Before the rise of the I-thought, the concepts are absent. Therefore you are beyond time and space. The I-thought is only limited 'I'. The real "I" is unlimited, universal, beyond time and space. They are absent in sleep. Just on rising from sleep, and before seeing the objective world there is a state of awareness which is your Pure Self. That must be known.
*****
Sri Bhagavan about Time and Space:
Talks No. 388.
Later Sri Bhagavan continued..
There are so many theories, scriptural and scientific. Have they reached any finality? They cannot. Brahman is said to be subtler than the subtlest, wider then the widest. Anu is an atom, infinitesimal. It ends in subtle perception. The subtlety is of the sukshma body, i.e. the mind. Beyond the mind there is the Self. The greatest of things are also conceptions, the conceptions are of the mind. Beyond the mind there is the Self. So the Self is subtler than the subtlest.
There may be any number of theories of creation. All of them extend outwardly. There will be no limit to them because time and space are unlimited. They are however only in the mind. See the mind. Time and Space are transcended and the Self is realized.
****
Sri Bhagavan about Time and Space:
Talks. No. 610:
Devotee: Since the individual souls and the Brahman are one, what is the cause of this creation?
Maharshi: The object of creation is to remove the confusion of your individuality. The question shows that you have identified yourself with the body and therefore see yourself and the world around. You think you are the body. Your mind and intellect are the factors of your wrong identity. Do you exist in sleep?
Devotee: I do.
Maharshi: The same being is now awake and asks these questions. Is it not so?
Devotee: Yes.
Maharshi: These questions did not arise in your sleep. Did they?
Devotee: No.
Maharshi: Why not? Because you did not see your body and thoughts arose. You did not identify with the body then. Therefore these questions did not arise. They arise now because of your identity with the body. Is it not so?
Devotee: Yes.
Maharshi: Now you see which is your real nature. Is it that which is free from thoughts or that which is full of thoughts? Being is continuous. The thoughts are discontinuous. So which is permanent?
Devotee: Being.
Maharshi: That is it. Realize it. That is your real nature. Your nature is simple. Being, free from thoughts.
.....
Maharshi: If you cease to identify yourself with the body no questions
regarding creation, birth, death, etc., will arise. They did not arise in your sleep. Similarly they will not arise in the true state of
the Self which is beyond time and space. Creation etc., is thus found to be only your thoughts.
.....
Devotee: But I must know if he is a Jnani for I must be inspired by him.
Maharshi: Yes. He tell you. He inspires. Do as he tells you. You want to learn and not test him. Jnana Lakshanas are stated in sastras, to be an incentive to give a seeker to get rid of misery and seek happiness. The methods are given. If they are followed, the result will be Jnana, having those lakshanas. They are not meant for testing others.
****
Sri Bhagavan about Time and Space:
Talks No. 625:
Maharshi: That existence is Consciousness. Unless you exist you cannot ask questions. So you must admit your own existence. That existence is the Self. It is already realized. Therefore the effort to realize results only in your realizing your present mistake --that you have not realized your Self. There is no fresh realization. The Self becomes revealed.
Devotee: That will take some years.
Maharshi: Why years? The idea of time is only in your mind. It is not in the Self. There is no time for the Self. Time arises as an idea after the ego arises. But you are the Self beyond time and
space. You exist even in the absence of time and space.
****
Dear S.,
Even we, ordinary mortals, say many times:
1. I went to the temple. Manas urugi prarthanai paNNinen.
2. She is in distress. So manam vittu pesinen.
3. Her mother is dead. Manam udainthu ponen.
What these, manam urugi, manam vittu, mana udainthu? Mind is not there. That is how all the finest agonies / ecstasies are expressed. Heart to Heart - said Sri Bhagavan.
In that state of NOW, only heart operates, since the mind is not there.
****
salutations to all:
Subramanian:
["...Heart to Heart - said Sri Bhagavan. In that state of NOW, only heart operates, since the mind is not there..."]
if the mind wasn't there then how does it remember it to the last detail, especially in the sensitive situations you illustrated? i've no doubt that bhagavAn knew what he meant by the 'heart', but do we have the same awareness of what's this 'heart' bhagavAn refers to? the only thing i seem to sort-of understand, for now, is this thing called the 'mind'! base or benign, sublime or supercilious, profound or profane, it's all the same mind... :-)
Dear S., Subramanian Sir,
I'd like to share my understandings on the topic of discussion.
Mind itself is Self. Jivatma itself is Paramatma.
Whatever "Is", its outward-ness (non abidance or non adherence) is termed as "mind" and its inward-ness (abidance or adherence) is termed "Self"
The Wise have always advised us the latter over the former for one who is in search of peace.
Nagaraj
(Sri Raman) Tiruvembavai: Verse 20:
Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai: Verse 1472.
AayapiRar vallaaNmaiyal azhinthu
pogaathu,
Nayadicchi yongaLathu naaNamodu
maanathai
Mayavali yal kaathu mvanthu
vayiravikku
Paaya niRai paaRap parama
niruvaanamahak
Kaayama muppuramun kaainthu kadaik
kaNNale
Thooya paravaLikee thoRRiyayalar
nahaikka
Nayakanaai nammai nayanthaaNda
Venkatan than
Neeya neeraadi nighazhelor
Embaavaai.
Prof K. Swaminathan:
To save us from the violent strength
Of others, we poor minds preserved
Our modesty with all our might
Even this impenetrable armor
You destroyed and left us naked!
Your glance destroyed the triple city
Body vanished, pure Awareness,
Space we are. Let others laugh,
Our Master thus mastered us!
Bathe in His love, the stream of Bliss.
Bathe, O maidens and be happy.
Here Muruganar says 'our strength
should not be violently destroyed
by others. Here apparently, it may mean chastity of women. Andal also says in Nachiyar Tirumozhi: I shall not live for "the sake of ordinary mortals." Chastity also means in its purport our well preserved ego.
Sri Bhagavan, Muruganar says, has destroyed the personality i.e. ego or chastity and left us naked.
Self respect comes of ego. In body sense, for women, it is chastity.
But for men and women, this denotes
carefully preserved 'personality' or ego sense or body-consciousness.
Sri Bhagavan, with His grace, has destroyed this ego/body consciousness and made us naked.
Maanam koNdu urupavar maanathai
azhithu, abi
Maanam illathu oLir, Arunachala!
(AAMM 77)
Accepting those who approach you with attachment, (ego, body sense)
destroy their individuality and then shine free from wrong attachment and identity with individuals, O Arunachala!
Maanam is the attachment, the individuality, the body consciousness.
****
Prof. K. Swamianthan's writings,
excerpts:
On Michaelams Day (Sept 29) 1940, happened the most memorable event of my life, my first darshan of the Maharshi. The last darshan (which the Master and the servant knew was indeed the last) occurred a fortnight before April, 14, 1950.
Comparison with egoless sleep is not a literary flourish. but an attempt to explain the pure countless happiness, which one recalls as 'how one felt, but what one felt remembers not.' Such happiness a child enjoys as it sits securely in its mother's lap. Sri Devaraja Mudaliar encouraged this mother-child bond, while D.S. Sarma, G.V. Subbaramayya and K. Subrahmanyam preferred teacher-student roles. Sri Bhagavan was an ideal mother, but to please us He
could also pose as an eager, bright eyed student quick to grasp and able to expound the deepest mysteries of English poems and Biblicial passages. One who is at home in the stillness of pure Being, keeps no diary, makes no notes, writes no letters. Like dreams remembered after waking up, the golden hours spent in the divine presence in that blessed decade demand for utterance a a gift like Muruganar's. That is why one reads him and rejoices in the voice that speaks for M. Anantanarayanan, Sri Sadhu Om and many dumb creatures like me.
*****
Prof. K. Swaminathan's writings:
Excerpts:
In 1910, my good father, had appointed and I had meekly accepted Sri P.S. Sivaswami Iyer as my infallible guide and mentor. In the summer of 1940, I had many baffling problems and mental conflicts and, as advised by Sri P.S. Sivaswami Iyer, took a serious of lessons on the Brahma Sutras, sitting at the feet of a learned Pandit in Bangalore. An English scholar, a Swami from Paris and this Narayana Sastriar agreed that an actual person in the Brhamic state, was present there in Tiruvannamalai, offering rest and shade to tired travelers in the desert of samsara.
Cautious, Sri P.S.S. who was my sole pater familias after my father's death in 1935, permitted my visit to the Asramam but added this advice: "You are a young man with many responsibilities. When I look down at the abyss from the edge of Doddabetta (in Ooty), I have four strong men holding me safe with a rope, round my hip. By all means go the Asramam. But don't go alone. Take some friends with you."
And so I took with me, my wife, my former student K.Subrahmanyam and my then student M.M. Ismail. The Maharshi deprived me of none of the persons or pleasures that were dear to me. He left them all with me enriched and sanctified. Shakespeare, Keats, Wordsworth and the Bible meant much more for me when illumined by the light He shed on all he saw. His grace it was, that gave me length of life, strength of body, and ample room to render humble service to Vinoba and Gandhi, all reflections in our own time of the Eternal Goodness of which He was the full embodiment.
*****
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