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Sri Ramana Maharshi
Welcome
I propose to use this blog primarily to air my occasional musings on any matters relating to the life and teachings of Ramana Maharshi. There will also be occasional contributions about Arunachala, the sacred mountain where Sri Ramana spent all of his adult life.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
748 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 748 Newer› Newest»Ravi,
Perhaps the problem is not so much my lack of experience and knowledge of sanatana dharma, but your lack of experience and knowledge of Buddhism.
As for Shaivism, I did not say it was not included in the Vedas, only that it preceded them, and was incorporated into the Vedic tradition after the fact. The relationship is somewhat similar to the way that Buddhism has incorporated things like Dzogchen and Bon into its Vajrayana branch.
Whether the attentive self inquiry
-- will it alone confer liberation.
The answer is No. Sri Bhagavan
says clearly in Atma Vidya Kirtanam,
Charanam 5:
The Space which illumines the sky etc., the eye and other organs of perception - that which is illumining these and remains as the eye of them, the mind-eye, to which remaining as the eye, the mind, which remaining as the Supreme Space of Consciousness, when without thinking of any other object, remaining moveless and still, in the Heart, that seeks the Self within, the resplendent Annamalai, the Self is directly perceived. FOR SUCH NON MEDIATED PERCEPTION, HIS GRACE MUST BE GAINED. For such profound grace, devotion with love and fervour is needed. In such a heart, so devoted, Bliss wells up.
WITHOUT GRACE SIMPLE SADHANAS WILL NOT BE OF MUCH HELP.
[Tr. Smt. T.R. Kanakammal]
I have seen one type of pradakshinam by devotees inside the Asramam. I suddenly remembered it after reading the diary notes of Annamalai Swami in my earlier post. In this, the
devotees first enter Mother's Temple, do one complete pradakshina,
and then come for the second round and here after seeing Nataraja and Sivakama Sundari, they enter the Samadhi Hall of Sri Bhagavan through the side entrance. In Sri Bhagavan's
Samadhi, they do one full pradakshina and after the second round, they come out and enter the Mother's Temple and continue the same.
I saw Ilayaraja, the music director doing this way, when we visited the Asramam during 26th-29th Jan. 2011. My wife says David Godman also does this time of pradakshina. How did this practice come in? I am not sure.
salutations to all:
subramanian/folks:
you said "...Whether the attentive self inquiry -- will it alone confer liberation. The answer is No. Sri Bhagavan says clearly in Atma Vidya Kirtanam..."
the paragraph you quoted emphasises grace but doesn't seem to say what you inferred! i don't know anything about 'grace' but the way it is mentioned by bhagavAn or thAkur, am inclined to say: where is not grace? when is grace absent? grace is always there for one and all. it is for want of a better word we say "bhagavAn's grace" or "grace of the self" - the self is grace; bhagavAn is grace - self-enquiry commences by grace and culminates in grace :-)
no efforts can ever result in realisation, for it's not an act of becoming or transforming that can be wrought or influenced by effort. the 'effort' of vichAra enables one to 'tune' oneself to the grace which is the self. the "devotion with love and fervour" you referred to shall flower spontaneously in the one who 'enquires' thus. in most cases, this 'tears welling up' thing is circumspect, being no more than an accidental burst of short-lived emotion giving one the false security of being closer to the divine with the additional baggage of a 'holier-than-thou' attitude :-) self-enquiry is beset with no such trappings as the mischief-maker is well taken care of all through :-)
to say (as you said) "WITHOUT GRACE SIMPLE SADHANAS WILL NOT BE OF MUCH HELP" - this is true but i don't think it is so because of grace being some arbitrary act of benevolence bestowed on the whims of a cosmic dictator, but is true because grace is verily the self, in the sense of 'sarvam khalu idam brahmA' :-)
Dear S.,
One can surmise in two ways.
1. The Self Itself allows the grace
to flow for the sadhaka. This is what is said as Maha Bhavan. Horripilation, shedding tears, even swooning due to ardent devotion etc.,
2. The other is that Sakti, the feminine aspect of Self or Sivam, confers grace and guides the sadhaka to Sivam.
The second aspect is described in
Sri Ramana Ashottaram, Name 16:
Om, Mahasakti nipadane prabuddhayea Namah:
Salutations to the One, who started
'seeing' due to Sakti Nipadam. This is also called Daivanugraha Sparsam. The touch of grace. It
is something similar to the Upanishadic statement: Atma chooses Atma. In Sri Bhagavan's
this Sakti played a key role. In
Tiruchuzhi, even during pre-death
experience years, once getting angry with the scolding father, He went behind the idol of Sahayavalli in the Temple and hid Himself. Again Meenakshi guided Him to find ways to reach Tiruvannamalai. These are all, I think, aspects of AruL or Sakti Nipadam.
One stray verse from Chokkanatha Pulavar.
Vengayam sukkanaal vendhayathal
aavathenna?
Ingar sumanthiruppar ich charakkai
- mangaatha,
Seeragathai thantheerel theden
perungaayam,
Eragathu Chettiyare!
O Chettiar [trader] of Tiruveragam,
Swamimalai Murugan. If this hot body becomes mature like dry ginger, where is the need for
Vendhayam [fenugree]? i.e. the body that is subject to fruits of all good and bad karmas? Who can carry this load [of body]? Seeragathai thantheerel... If you will give the Seer-aham, the realization of Heart. Venden
perun kayam, tnis useless big body, full of senility, disease and death, I do not want.
Here, the beauty is, all south Indian spices are mentioned with double meaning! Venkayam - onion. sukku -dry ginger. Vendhayam -
fenugree. Seerakam - another spice used in rasam. Perunkayam - asafoetida.
Muruga was born as a son of Chettiar [trader] in Madurai. He was born dumb and deaf. When some commentaries were written by Tamizh poets, for a book called
IRaiyanar ahap poruL Urai, the Siva told the various commentators to go to the son of Chettiar, Rudra Sanman. When he listened to Nakkirar's commentary, he wept for each sentence, shaking his head in approval!
Friends,
For those interested,the latest post in http://advaitham.blogspot.com/ continues from where it left off,and the natural progression of Karma,Bhakti and Jnana marga is covered.
Here is an excerpt:
"As we progress in the Path of Gnaana Sadhana the individual’s likes and dislikes slowly drop off as he becomes aware of being guided on the path by the power of Easwara. Many of the rituals of Karma and devotional procedures may be given up without being aware of giving up anything. He may even adopt Sanyaasa, but not with an intension to do so! By then he would have gone beyond to the stage of ‘sarvaarambha parityaagi and sarva sankalpa rahita:’, as those who have given up all new ventures and stopped taking decisions to do anything! They may also continue to be heading a corporate business venture or be running an empire like Janaka did. There is no end point of clear definition as to where Karma or Bhakti or Gnaana finishes. There have been some great Adwaitins who continued to be great devotees too!"
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
"I have seen one type of pradakshinam by devotees inside the Asramam."
This is the way Pradakshina is done anywhere else also(wherever such a possibility exists!).
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian/s/Friends,
Tears of devotion for however short a time they last, cannot be underestimated.Yes,one has to carefully guard such moments and not speak about it public.
Here is an excerpt from Ramana Leela:
"The first religious text that Venkataraman read was Periapuranam. It was as if he entered a new world altogether. The more he read the greater was his thirst. The Lord of Time was the monarch therein hence there was no fear of time. The subjects were all contented devotees of Siva. Devotion, love, peace, and bliss flooded all over as knowledge of Siva himself.
As he was progressing, Venkataraman's devotion and reverence for the devotees was increasing — he grieved at their travails and rejoiced in their triumphs. Venkataraman felt that Siva was glancing at him also just as he beheld the devotees. On completion of the book his emotional upsurge vanished, Venkataraman became his usual self. He seemed to have forgotten all those devotees and had given up all thought of following them."
Sometimes a pressure cooker like situation develops,which is not visible on the surface.
" Abidance in the Self and devotion were the two strands which governed Venkataraman's life. For one who abided in the Self what was the need for devotion to God? This is what Bhagavan had to say on this subject much later, "I was not aware that experience of the Self was categorized and described variously. I was not familiar with philosophic terms like "Brahman" nor what an attributeless Truth meant. I was not aware that the individual Self and Easwara were one. I had an awareness of Easwara but not that it was the atma itself. One cannot say whether the thought process (mind) became extinct or was in abeyance. The Self was being experienced without any effort. In a sense it was abidance in the Self. It was the experience of the unbroken atma in the words of Sankara. In Jnana Vasishta it is described as "sattva pathi."
"Did not Sankara and other self-realised persons worship God with attributes?" One moment it was
submergence in the atma at the next it was in God. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa also confirmed the last stages of saints and sages to be similar."
Continued...
R.Subramanian/s/Friends,
Ramana leela continued...
""Other than Periapuranam I had not studied any other spiritual text by then. I had only heard of the Infinite Being with attributes as described therein. I had not heard of any attributeless Truth. Even while being conscious of the external world I was in the presence of Easwara — with no agony, or emotion," said the Swami.
Yogic ways are of two types — the internal and the external. The jnana-marga (path of wisdom) transcends the five sheaths of the body. Raja Yoga is control of mind, whereas Hatha yoga is control of breath. Among the external yogas, the karma [?] and bhakti [?] margas are the most important. They are easily available even to worldly-minded, ordinary people. Among them, the Sankhyas discriminate against the body and attain the attributeless Parabrahman. Or some become devotees, fix their heart on Easwara with attributes, serve him and consider that other than Easwara there is nothing else. For those like Suka who choose the atma as the goal as well as for those devotees who choose Easwara as the goal — the result is the same -- it is the unification of the individual Self and Brahman.
Venkataraman who would earlier visit the temple of Meenakshi only on holy days now became a frequent visitor. On seeing the sport of Sundarareswarar painted in the thousand pillared hall Venkataraman "recollected the emotional upsurge experienced about one year ago on hearing the name of Arunachala." He also was to further
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recall the life stories of the devotees which could not influence his life then. "I must also be full of bhakti [?] like the Nayanmars, I thought, Easwara, my father at Arunachala, would grant me refuge at his feet. I would frequently visit the temple and in the presence of the images of the Deities and Nayanmars would be beside myself with emotion and would be tear-filled. I did not know what that agony or emotion was due to. All that I would pray for was that the Lord should make me His devotee, or a member of his retinue or one with unswerving devotion. I knew not whether it was joy or sorrow. Either I was in meditation or in that state of agony. My whole body was flooded with this emotion and had a burning sensation. On beholding the images a storm would rise in the mind. Possibly, because the thoughts lost their anchor of the body some other foothold was needed. That was the reason for visiting the temple so frequently. Sometimes, I prayed for mercy, at some other times even that was absent. Tears would stream down, sometimes I would be stupefied".
Interestingly Sri bhagavan experienced this after Self Realization.
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian/s/Friends,
In Day by Day with Bhagavan,Sri Bhagavan reveals an interesting detail of his school life,a sort of prelude to his awakening, not captured by his biographers(or not considered relevant or important by them):
"On or about 15-3-45 Bhagavan had asked someone in the
hall to read aloud Bhakta Vijayam, to illustrate from the story
of Tulasi Das, how one totally immersed in sensual life,
suddenly recoils and goes to the other extreme of a highly
religious life. In the story, Tulasi Das runs away from wife and
home and is mad after Hari at Banaras. The wife and mother
go and entreat him to come back, reminding him of his great
love for them all. He takes no notice of them at all, but asks
them, “Has my Hari come? Yes. He is coming there!” etc. He
was mad after Hari alone and took interest in nothing else. When
this portion was being read out, Bhagavan said, “I was somewhat
like this at Madura. Going to school, books in hand, I would be
eagerly desiring and expecting that God would suddenly appear
before me in the sky; and so I would be looking up at the sky.
What sort of progress could such a one make in his studies at
school!”
Namaskar.
Subramanian, Thank you for the exchange between Ramana and Annamalai. I have read it before but it was so refreshing to see it again. Annamalai Swami asked Sri Bhagavan on 5th May 1939:
A: Sri Bhagavan, you are telling that silence is uninterrupted speech. I do not understand.
Sri B: [while walking with A]: Do
you see that "I am" ?
A: Yes. I see.
Sri B: How?
A: But I do not know how it is seen.
Sri B: Yes. In the same way, to be silent is to be every working. Working does not mean, taking an axe and digging the earth. That which is ever shining is working.
Silence is ever speaking. Both are same. That is why, great
people have said: I am thinking without thinking you.... I am remembering without remembering you...I am listening without listening you...etc., If you do not talk, Iswara will talk to you.,
glow
R.Subramanian/s/Friends,
What is Grace of God?It is that power that helps dispel Ignorance.Although it is not something dispensed by god or self on a need to have basis-its unmistakeable presence is felt by the devotee as Faith,Clarity,peace,Love amidst the surrounding darkness.It is that element that helps the devotee break free of the relentless wheel of karma,the principle of Inertia that opposes any change.
Here is an excerpt from The gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
MASTER (with pleasure): "It is through God's grace that you understand that. The doubts
of the mind will not disappear without His grace. Doubts do not disappear without Selfrealization.
"But one need not fear anything if one has received the grace of God. It is rather easy for a
child to stumble if he holds his father's hand; but there can be no such fear if the father
holds the child's hand. A man does not have to suffer any more if God, in His grace,
removes his doubts and reveals Himself to him. But this grace descends upon him only
after he has prayed to God with intense yearning of heart and practised spiritual discipline.
The mother feels compassion for her child when she sees him running about breathlessly.
She has been hiding herself; now she appears before the child."
"But why should God make us run about?" thought M
Immediately Sri Ramakrishna said: "It is His will that we should run about a little. Then it
is great fun. God has created the world in play, as it were. This is called Mahamaya, the
Great Illusion. Therefore one must take refuge in the Divine Mother, the Cosmic Power
Itself. It is She who has bound us with the shackles of illusion. The realization of God is
possible only when those shackles are severed."
Namaskar.
s/friends,
"self-enquiry commences by grace and culminates in grace :-)
no efforts can ever result in realisation, for it's not an act of becoming or transforming that can be wrought or influenced by effort. the 'effort' of vichAra enables one to 'tune' oneself to the grace which is the self. the "devotion with love and fervour" you referred to shall flower spontaneously in the one who 'enquires' thus."
Yes,this is quite true-the 'tuning' oneself to the Grace.
This is what Sri aurobindo says:
"Always indeed it is the higher Power that acts. Our sense of personal effort and aspiration comes from the attempt of the egoistic mind to identify itself in a wrong and imperfect way with the workings of the divine Force. It persists in applying to experience on a supernormal plane the ordinary terms of mentality which it applies to its normal experiences in the world. In the world we act with the sense of egoism; we claim the universal forces that work in us as our own; we claim as the effect of our personal will, wisdom, force, virtue the selective, formative, progressive action of the Transcendent in this frame of mind, life and body. Enlightenment brings to us the knowledge that the ego is only an instrument; we begin to perceive and feel that these things are our own in the sense that they belong to our supreme and integral Self, one with the Transcendent, not to the instrumental ego. Our limitations and distortions are our contribution to the working; the true power in it is the Divine's. When the human ego realises that its will is a tool, its wisdom ignorance and childishness, its power an infant's groping, its virtue a pretentious impurity, and learns to trust itself to that which transcends it, that is its salvation. The apparent freedom and self-assertion of our personal being to which we are so profoundly attached, conceal a most pitiable subjection to a thousand suggestions, impulsions, forces which we have made extraneous to our little person. Our ego, boasting of freedom, is at every moment the slave, toy and puppet of countless beings, powers, forces, influences in universal Nature. The self-abnegation of the ego in the Divine is its self-fulfillment; its surrender to that which transcends it is its liberation from bonds and limits and its perfect freedom."
continued....
s/friends,
Sri aurobindo on Effort and Grace,continued:
But still, in the practical development, each of the three stages has its necessity and utility and must be given its time or its place. It will not do, it cannot be safe or effective to begin with the last and highest alone. It would not be the right course, either, to leap prematurely from one to another. For even if from the beginning we recognise in mind and heart the Supreme, there are elements of the nature which long prevent the recognition from becoming realisation. But without realisation our mental belief cannot become a dynamic reality; it is still only a figure of knowledge, not a living truth, an idea, not yet a power. And even if realisation has begun, it may be dangerous to imagine or to assume too soon that we are altogether in the hands of the Supreme or are acting as his instrument. That assumption may introduce a calamitous falsity; it may produce a helpless inertia or, magnifying the movements of the ego with the Divine Name, it may disastrously distort and ruin the whole course of the Yoga. There is a period, more or less prolonged, of internal effort and struggle in which the individual will has to reject the darkness and distortions of the lower nature and to put itself resolutely or vehemently on the side of the divine Light. The mental energies, the heart's emotions, the vital desires, the very physical being have to be compelled into the right attitude or trained to admit and answer to the right influences. It is only then, only when this has been truly done, that the surrender of the lower to the higher can be effected, because the sacrifice has become acceptable.
The personal will of the Sadhaka has first to seize on the egoistic energies and turn them towards the light and the right; once turned, he has still to train them to recognise that always, always to accept, always to follow that. Progressing, he learns, still using the personal will, personal effort, personal energies, to employ them as representatives of the higher Power and in conscious obedience to the higher Influence. Progressing yet farther, his will, effort, energy become no longer personal and separate, but activities of that higher Power and Influence at work in the individual. But there is still a sort of gulf of distance which necessitates an obscure process of transit, not always accurate, sometimes even very distorting, between the divine Origin and the emerging human current. At the end of the progress, with the progressive disappearance of egoism and impurity and ignorance, this last separation is removed; all in the individual becomes the divine working."
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
Very interesting information from
Sri Ramana Leela. Sri Bhagavan, as some other author had said, had many unique features in His sadhana/self-realization. Without knowing words like Brahman, He attained Jnana Bodham. He never wore ochre robes nor did He recommend ochre robes for even devotees. He was living representation of a Jnani in Sahaja Samadhi. His bhakti bhava came about after attaining self realization. No Brahma Jnani's departure from this embodied world, had a significant mark of a shooting star appearing on the sky, at least in known history.
SUNDARAM IYER'S DAY:
Today Sundaram Iyer's day is observed with solemnity and special prayers in the Asramam. Sundaram Iyer, Sri Bhagavan's father, was religious in the conventional sense of the term, with occasional darshan at temples, attending to discourses, having a home-altar and pujas. As for spirituality, philosophic culture or religious devotion, Iyer could not boast of any marked trait. He was an uncertified pleader in the court. He was, all the same known for his kind- hearted nature and generous help to needy. His house had separate compartment, for visitors, who could dine and stay. He merged in pure Space in 1892, leaving his wife, three sons and a daughter.
Sri Ramana Ashtottaram says in Name 10:
Om Sundararya tapa phalaya Namah |
Salutations to the One who is fruit given to Sundaram Iyer for his penance.
OR
Salutations to the One who was born to Sundaram Iyer, as a reward of his tapss.
In India, an overpopulated country, with teeming millions, travelling in public transport is a great adventure. Between two meditum sized towns, the public transport is not that frequent. The crowd will become unmanageable, if in one of the towns, some temple festival is observed. There was one such town and people had to come from nearby towns in overcrowded buses. There were two old men. When even youngsters could not get into the buses, some were wondering how these two old guys could make it. The bus came. There was a huge crowd jostling with each other. The two old guys simply stood in the midst of the crowd. The bus became full and the conductor whistled for the move. A few disappointed people still on the road, saw these two old guys inside the bus. How could they make it? How? How?
Saint Manikkavachagar says in Tiruvachakam, Tiru Sadakam, 2.1:
Natakathal un adiyar pol nadithu naan naduve veedahathe pugunthiduvaan mika perithum viraikinren...
I am just acting as if I am your true devotee, in the midst of ardent devotees, and I wish to attain your Abode. I am rushing amongst them.....
salutations to all:
Ravi/Folks:
it was so nice to read again, among others, the following lines which ravi quoted from 'ramaNa leelA':
"...This is what Bhagavan had to say on this subject much later, "I was not aware that experience of the Self was categorized and described variously. I was not familiar with philosophic terms like "Brahman" nor what an attributeless Truth meant. I was not aware that the individual Self and Easwara were one. I had an awareness of Easwara but not that it was the atma itself. One cannot say whether the thought process (mind) became extinct or was in abeyance. The Self was being experienced without any effort. In a sense it was abidance in the Self..."
it 'somehow' (don't ask me how/ why!) gives me the feeling that though i may not reach anywhere even remotely close to something like perfection in anything i do (maths/ sanskrit/ vedAnta/ etc. etc.), yet the one thing i really can is realise the self :-)))
[of course, nowadays, am very fine with not-being-good in anything!] hahahahaha
Dr. G.U. Pope [1900] has done somewhat a more complex verse translation of the same verse:
'Midmost of Thy devoted ones, like them in mystic dance to move;
Within Thy home above to gain wish'd entrance, lo, I eager haste!
O golden-glorious Hill of gems! Give grace, that ceaseless love to Thee,
Our Master, in my heart of hearts, melting my very soul, may 'bide.
Dr. G.U. Pope has taken the natakatthal un adiyar pol nadithu.. as mystic dance and not as acting with insincere love.
Friends,
There is an interesting conversation about surrender in Day By Day entry dated 1st March 1946:
Dr. Syed asked Sri Bhagavan: "Does not total or complete surrender require that one should not have left in him the desire for liberation or God?
Sri Bhagavan: Complete surrender does require that you have no desire of your own, that God's desire alone is your desire and that you have no desire of your own.
Dr. Syed: Now that I am satisfied on that point, I want to know what are the steps by which I could achieve surrender.
Sri Bhagavan: There are two ways.
One is looking into the source of 'I' and merging into that Source. The other is feeling 'I am helpless by myself, God alone is all-powerful and except throwing myself completely on him, there is no other means of safety for me,'
and thus gradually developing the conviction that God alone exists and the ego does not count. Both methods lead to the same goal. Complete surrender is another name for Jnana or Liberation.
Dear S.,
...'the only thing I can really is to realize the Self.,' I think, this is good enough. It is mumukshatvam.
ABOUT SURRENDER:
Q: What is unconditional surrender?
Sri B: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on to the root thought 'I', or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the higher power. These are only the two ways for realization.
Q: Does not total or complete surrender require that one should not have left even with the desire for liberation or God?
Sri B: Complete surrender does require that you have no desire of your own. You must be satisfied with whatever God gives you and that means having no desires of your own.
Q: What is the drift of the mind after surrender?
Sri B: Is the surrendered mind raising the question?
Q: By constantly desiring to surrender, I hope that increasing grace is experienced.
Sri B: Surrender once for all and be done with the desire. So long as the sense of doership is retained there is the desire. That is also personality. If this goes, the Self is found to shine forth pure. The sense of doership is the bondage and not the actions themselves. "Be still and know that I am God." Here stillness is total surrender without a vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail and there will be no agitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense of doership and personality. If that is stopped, there is quiet. There 'knowing' means 'being.' It is not the relative knowledge involving t triads - knowledge, knowing and known.
From Talks No. 502:
D: A sloka is quoted which means:
'I do not desire kingdoms, etc., Only let me serve Thee for ever and there lies my highest pleasure.' Is it right?
Sri B: Yes. There is room for kama [desire] so long as there is an object apart from the subject, i.e duality. There can be no desire if there is no object. The state of no desire is moksha. There is no duality in sleep and also no desire. Whenever there is duality in the waking state and desire is also there. Because of duality, a desire arises for the acquisition of the object. That is the outgoing mind, which is the basis of duality and desire. If one knows that Bliss is none other than the Self the mind becomes inward turned. If the Self is gained all the desires are fulfilled. That is the apta kamah atma kamah akamscha of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. That is moksha.
"self-enquiry commences by grace and culminates in grace"
This is quite true. Even so, the in-between part requires much effort. Sri Ramana made that very clear, I think.
Dear Broken Yogi,
Very true. How many, though living in Tiruvannamalai, comes to the Asramam at least once in a week, and sit before Sri Bhagavan in Samadhi Hall? So self inquiry or self surrender commences with grace. Grace is always there. But we should become fit vessels to take that abundant grace in good quantities. This comes about only again with effort towards self inquiry or self surrender.
David, Is there any evidence that Neem Karoli Baba visited Ramana Maharshi on the hill or in the early days of the ashram?
glow
There is some mention about one
Ramanatha Iyer in B.V. Narasimha
Swami's Self Realization. Ramanatha Iyer was an elementary school teacher in a village in Thanjavur District, Tamizh Nadu. He developed faith in Sri Bhagavan and visited Sri Ramanasramam at first on holidays. He seemed to have read up the works of Sri Bhagavan and the life of Sri Ramakrishna. As his faith became more fervent, he began to grow somewhat reckless of his social obligations. He was past forty and he had his wife and young children to maintain out of his earnings as a teacher. Yet when his faith grew more, his sense of social duty suddenly gave way, and he frequently left his post and came away to Sri Ramanasramam or elsewhere. The first default was condoned by his superiors and he was restored to his post. But again he left his school and home and came to Sri Ramanasramam. There he sat in a dazed state before Sri Bhagavan, not speaking at all to anyone -- not even to Sri Bhagavan. He went on with his meditations in the Asramam Hall in a perfectly nude condtion -- evidently following Sri Ramakrishna's example and precept that one must free himself from his five sheaths, as also dress, caste etc., The disciples took exception to this practice and re-tied the codpiece on to him. Again at dead of night, he moved out into the adjoining tank Pali Tirtham, for his meditation. The disciples afraid that he might get drowned, pulled h8m out and brought him to the Hall. Again he went out into the darkness of the night and sat up naked in the open ground beyond the Asramam for his meditation. He was again re-clothed and brought back to the Hall lest cheetahs that occasionally visited the Asramam should attack him. And he was finally locked up in a cottage. Finding it impossible to look after him, one of the disciples took him to his village. Bur in a short time, he returned to Tiruvannamalai and continued his nude and silent meditation at Pandava Tirtham at the foot of the Hill and some distance from Sri Ramanasramam. His wife and children came to Sri Ramansramam and invited him home. Sri Bhagavan advised him to attend to his social duties. But this devotee had finally resolved to cut himself away from domestic duties and discarding all invitation and advice, was last [as reported by BVN] was wandering as a mouni, keenly intent on developing vairagya and Jnana, living upon the alms that he got.
Sri AAMM: 71:
Peythanam vida viddap peyai pitithu enaip
Peyan aakinai en Arunachala!
My Arunachala, you have driven out of me the evil spirit of worldliness and possessed me so that I can never shake you off, and have made me indifferent to the world.
There is also a stray reference about one SUNDARAMMAL, in BVN's book. He was the wife of a well-to-do official at Madras [now Chennai]. She had some hysterical attacks some time earlier, and visited Sri Ramanasramam. The fits ceased but she continued childless. She repeated her visits to the Asramam to get over her sorrows and troubles. In 1928, she resolved to alter her mode of life and wanted to become a sannyasini. She questioned Sri Bhagavan if there was any bar to her assumption of sannyasa and to her wearing ochre clothes. According on His answer, she put on an ochre cloth and took the vow of silence. She went up the Hill one evening and all alone stayed on the verandah of the Virupaksha Cave. She was dissuaded from being so wild in her choice of residence. She then removed to Satguru Swami Cave. She gave up all her former comforts and her two rich meals supplemented by two light meals viz., the morning and evening teas [her teas included choice of rich delicacies]. Instead, her daily food became a couple of plantain fruits and a cup of milk. She refused to attend to her hair which consequently grew matted and hung loose, and she spent her time in meditation -- during the day in the Asramam in Sri Bhagavan's presence and at night in her cave or room. For over three years she had lead a rigorous life of penance and later spent her time in pilgrimages at sacred places like Tirukazhu KunRam, Pazhani, Kuttalam etc., Then she shaved her head clean and started taking food given to her by all persons regardless of caste.
Ravi,
You quoted:
"But why should God make us run about?" thought M
Immediately Sri Ramakrishna said: "It is His will that we should run about a little. Then it
is great fun. God has created the world in play, as it were. This is called Mahamaya, the
Great Illusion. Therefore one must take refuge in the Divine Mother, the Cosmic Power
Itself.
-----------------------------------
May be the above spin is necesary to stay positive.But all is really only our consolation.The question of Why arises as we do not have the bigger view of the entire factory.We look at one piece of machinery and ask why is it moving.There is no such thing as Full View of every angle of all the machinery in the entire factory *at the same time*.To conceive is to limit the unlimited.Hence Why is a foolish question born out of limited view.
Gautama Buddha took the other approach and tried to sort of say the amount of Dukkha for a passing Sukha is not worth it and there is no need to pray to anyone as against Mother and her Play.He also remained silent on the sort of questions of Why for obvious reasons.
As one soars higher and higher all these concepts look funny and non-existent(not even irrelevant or out of question; they just dont exist) and there is only increasing peace and silence.One will laugh in amusement at these concepts but once down one is automatically back into these myriad questions and concepts.I think Thakur is pulling a story here to keep us satisfied but none of these arise as one soars high.
As we keep coming down we keep seeing more and more realtionships(Forms) and we keep Naming.Suddenly we find lost and helpless in the maze of these Names and Forms and then we invent God,Heaven,Hell,Fate,Re-incarnations and what not.We have no choice but use the same Names and Forms to unwind when we get tired.
Instead of saying all this it is easy to say God and his Play.
-z
Dear Anon [z]
Sri Bhagavan, as you all know had a different approach. He says the only true Sukam, about which we get a foretaste is deep sleep, is Atma Sukam. He has used sushupti [deep sleep] in almost 100 places in Talks. However, He has also mentioned in Who am I?: When one wants something and he gets it, or when one hates a thing and that is not happening, the mind quells in Atma and only enjoys Atma Sukam. But these are all fleeting pleasures and pains of worldly life. When mind permanently becomes quiescent in Atma, is bliss.
That is why when even poor villagers came and told Him about poverty, illness and sufferings, He used to ask: Was it there when you slept last night? Whether these villagers understood this or not, they got some peace and went away.
Once Kavyakanta on witnessing such an incident told Sri Bhagavan: Bhagavan, this man is telling you some down to earth problems, and you are telling about sushupti state. If he had come to me, I would have told him to chant some mantras. He might have been more satisfied. Sri Bhagavan said: Nayana, I can tell him only what I know. Whoever knows something else, let him tell what they know.
At the same time, in certain incidents of individual suffering when reported, He has said: Read this Tiruppugazh song, etc.. etc.,
Once for a group of monkeys in Pachaimamman Kovil, Sri Bhagavan was speaking about Nan Yar vichara. Viswanatha Swami came and asked: Sri Bhagavan, why are you telling these monkeys about atma vichara? What can they understand?
Sri Bhagavan said: I have also been telling the same to you all. How many of you have understood? Like that some monkeys may understand and many may not....
Anonymous
I spoke to Ram Dass in Taos in 2003 and asked him if Neem Karoli Baba had ever visited Bhagavan.
He said that a couple of times he had heard him mention a visit in which he came, stayed for some time at a distance, and then, for no given reason, felt compelled to run away.
Ram Dass said that he felt that Neem Karoli Baba was describing a dream or vision visit, rather than a pilgrimage in the real world.
Sri Bhagavan opened the steel box of Avastha traya that was held by Gaudapada and made it known to all.
Whether how many understood or not - cannot be estimated.
What are the roots that clutch?
What branches grow out of this
stony rubbish?
Son of man, for you know only a heap of broken images.
Where sun beats, dead trees give no shelter,
And cricket no relief. [T.S. Eliot]
Subramanian,
Do you know if Bhagawan in now in Bliss??
-z
z,
"May be the above spin is necesary to stay positive"
Friend,you have raised an interesting point and at a rational level the 'why' is indeed meaningless.
thAkur is apparently simple and naive but in putting it this way ,he has answered it in a way that satisfies at all levels.
I will share more of it when I find time.For the moment I will say this-The answer is a form of consolation only if it is limited to one moment of agony or ecstasy or otherwise.What if this attitude is sustained forever;it ceases to be a consolation message and comes out as the only plausible answer.He who understands this has understood the true nature of Maya.
thAkur had this unique and charming way of expressing deep truths in an accessible way and yet stands the test of any sort of scrutiny.
Namaskar.
Dear Anon.,
When I tell Arunachala Siva...Arunachala Siva, I experience the bliss within me, which is nothing but Sri Bhagavan. I am able to experience bliss due to His eternal presence. Only this meditation should become continuous. I am holding His hand tight and I am sure He is going to put me on the shore.
Subramanian,
Yes, our practice of self-enquiry is our response to the grace that has been given to us.
Not wishing to extend any sectarian arguments, I had a few more thoughts to air on the affinities I find between Ramana, Advaita, and Buddhism.
The first affinity is in the Buddhist doctrine of “anatta” or “anatman”, meaning “no self”. There are many misconceptions about this, such as the notion that it is opposed to the kind of non-dual teaching about “the Self” that Ramana propounds. This doctrine is central to Buddhism, being the first step of the noble eightfold path, called “right view”, and it states that there is no separate, individual self associated with anything, anywhere, including of course ourselves. What it does NOT state is that there is no existential consciousness or awareness in the absence of this separate individual self. To the contrary, Buddhism observes we are all very much aware, and anatta merely says that this is the case even though no separate individual self exists. Anatta does not say that awareness is non-existent, only that our association of awareness with a limited “self” is an illusion, and that our true nature is not found in such a viewpoint. It therefore argues for a non-dual viewpoint, in which awareness is freed from this illusion of separate self.
Thus, this “right view” of anatta in Buddhism is very similar indeed to Ramana's teaching that no separate individual ego-self exists. Buddhism suggests that we not merely believe this to be so, but that we actually observe ourselves to see that there is no such separate, individual self. This too is very similar to Ramana's admonition to find out if there is an ego at the center of our sense of self, or if this is merely an illusion. Self-enquiry is an investigation of this separate ego-self which finds no such entity, and is thereby freed of the illusion that such a thing exists. Buddhist meditation is also directed at finding out that there is no actual self in us at the root of our identity, and that we do not require such an illusion to function even on a practical level.
The general message of the Sanatana Dharma on this is contained in the mahavakya “Brahman (the Universal Self) and atman (the individual self, or jivatman) are the same”. However, this needs to be modified if one is to understand Sri Ramana's teaching properly, since he does not admit the existence of a jivatman in reality. To Ramana, the jivatman is an illusion created by identification with name and form, which results in the non-dual consciousness of Brahman laboring under the illusion that it is actually a separate individual. So the apparent jivatman does not actually exist, only Brahman exists, but the apparent jivatman has a wrong understanding or viewpoint of who he actually is that is the result of ignorance, and this must be corrected.
So when Ramana talks about finding the Source of the jivatman, he is not suggesting that the jivatman has ever actually come into existence, like a spark flying from the flame (though he made use of that traditional analogy for some people). It's not that kind of Source. The Source simply means the reality that is always the case, the “Who” of “Who am I?”
The Advaita of Gaudapada and Sankara likewise modified the ancient view that “Brahman and Jivatman” are the same, with the ajata vada, which demonstrated that no jivatman has ever been created, nor could it ever be created, that “all are One”. The sense that the individual self and the universal Self are the same, is only true because there is no individual self at all. This echoes the Buddhist doctrine of anatta, and also Ramana's own teaching on the illusory nature of the ego.Where Buddhism differs with these is its refusal to describe the reality of primordial awareness in the absence of the illusion of separative self as a “Self”. It refuses this because it does not want to confuse the non-dual reality with the illusory jivatman.
cont.
Especially at the time of the Buddha, the prevalent notion was that there really was an eternal individual self, and that it was this self that was the same as Brahman, the universal and trancendental Self. So Buddhism split doctrinally from this pervasive viewpoint within Sanatana Dharma. Many of these issues were actually resolved in the development of Advaita by Gaudapada and Sankara, but the cultural and doctrinal divide had become so pronounced by then that reconciliation was not practical.
But as we can see in modern Advaitins like Ramana and Nisargadatta, this doctrinal distinction no longer contains any real substance to it. Both Buddhism and modern Advaita agree that there is no separate individual self. They both agree that our true nature is not that of separate individuals, but of universal, unqualified and non-dual awareness. They both agree that the source of this illusion of separate individuality is ignorance and identification with the body and its cravings. They both agree that the fulfillment of these cravings is impossible because of the impermanent nature of not only the world, but of the separate ego-self itself. They both agree that a direct and personal investigation of the illusion of separate self must be engaged in by the serious aspirant, and that enlightenment is not an attainment of some kind, but merely the rejection and abandonment of this illusion as the result of this investigation of reality.
They still differ on the name and concept for Reality, “That” which is realized in the process of seeing through the illusion of separate self. Advaita and Ramana call it “the Self”, whereas Buddhists call it any number of names, such as “Nirvana”, “the One Mind”, etc. I think this distinction is largely semantic and not substantial or otherwise existentially significant.
There is still the issue of the continuity of the experiential dimension of the ego-self. The general Sanatana Dharma view is that the ego-self is continuous with the transcendental Self. Buddhist deny the existence of the ego-self, so there is no such continuity in their view. However, they do acknowledge that awareness is ever-present and not diminished by the illusion of the separate self presumption, and that it is this awareness that enables us to inspect ourselves and the world and see that no such self exists, and to engage in the whole round of sadhana described by the Noble Eightfold Path. This awareness is called “Prajna”, and its awakening and cultivation is the central focus of Buddhist practice.
Ramana's view on this is complex. He acknowledges that the ego-mind is an illusion, but he maintains that there are two aspects to what we call “mind”. The first is merely awareness itself, “consciousness”, which is not actually separate or individuated, but seems to become so when we identify with the body. This results in “ego-mind”, the “I”-thought, from which all other thoughts emerge, including the world and all its seeming objects. The destruction of this second aspect of mind is what Ramana's self-enquiry is aimed at. When this is accomplished, the first aspect of mind, awareness itself, is found to be identitical to the Self, the transcendental Brahman. The important distinction here is that Ramana at no point says that the ego-”I” is ever identical to Brahman. To him this is never the case. It is only awareness that is identical to Brahman, even though awareness falls under the illusion that it is an ego due to identification with the body.
This distinction in Ramana's teaching is important to grasp, and easy to overlook, especially for those who are brought up in traditional Sanatana Dharma views. It is, I think, an excellent bridge by which one can understand the underlying unity between Advaitic and Buddhist views, and see that the distinctions made between them are not as significant as many believe.
Another excellent affinity between Buddhism and Ramana's teaching is found in this famous statement of the Buddha's:
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
This I believe also sums up Sri Ramana's own attitude towards all forms of instruction and teaching, and how we should undertake the study of not only traditional teachings, but his own.
Broken Yogi/Friends,
Sri Ramakrishna used to say that Brahman is a sugar Hill and even sage suka is at the most a bigger ant-this is a profound statement and goes to show that Truth is something that cannot be expressed with any degree of finality-that it is only 'this' and not 'that'.All systems like dvaita,visishtadvaita and advaita with all the variants had self Realization(Atma sAkshAtkara)as one of the prime goals and all upheld the VedAs and vedAnta(the upanishads).The vedAs and the upanishads express truths from various standpoints(not only from the advaitic standpoint)and cover the entire gamut of spiritual experience.
In the light of what sri ramakrishna said,it is interesting to see the line of yoga pursued by Sri aurobindo.we do know that Sri Bhagavan differed from sri Aurobindo's,yet such a view is equally based on the certitude of direct experience.Now how is one to validate which of the view is the ultimate or the final one?Looks like there is no such finality about this,although the advaitist would like to believe that his view is final and so do others.He may like to believe that other views are included and transcended by his nondual experience-and hence his view has a ring of finality and towards this he works out a philosophical system backed up by logic,and this further strengthens his view.
Now comes the interesting point-what if another great one comes along and says that he has experienced the nondual in exactly the same way and yet differs that it is not final.This is the backdrop to the following letter on yoga by Sri aurobindo that i am posting-I know that this will be viewed as a case of an 'enlightenment' not yet stabilized ,that some traces of vasana has yet to be worked out,etc going by the advaitic school of thought.On the other hand,it may be viewed as a case of what Sri Ramakrishna had said,with which I opened this post.
Continued....
Broken Yogi/Friends,
An excerpt from Sri Aurobindo's 'letters on yoga':
Well, it is a little difficult to explain. Perhaps the best thing is to break up my answer into a number of separate statements, for the whole thing has got too complicated to do otherwise.
1. It is impossible to equate my conception or experience of the Jivatman with the pure “I” of the Adwaita, by which you mean, I suppose, something which says, “I am He” and by that perception merges itself into the Brahman. According to the Adwaita of the Mayavadins this Jivatman, like the Ishwara himself, is simply an appearance of the Brahman in illusory Maya. There is no Ishwara, Lord of the world, because there is no world - except in Maya; so too there is no Jivatman, only the Paramatman illusorily perceived as an individual self by the lower (illusory) consciousness in Maya. Those, on the other hand, who wish to unite with the Ishwara, regard or experience the Jiva either as a separate being dependent on the Ishwara or as something one in essence with him, yet different, but this difference like the essential oneness is eternal - and there are also other ideas of the Jivatman and its relation to the Divine or Supreme. So this pure “I”, if that is how it is to be described, presents itself differently, in different aspects, one may say, to different people. If you ask why, I refer you to my answer to X. The overmind presents the truth of things in all sorts of aspects and mind, even the spiritual mind, fastens on one or the other as the very truth, the one real truth of the matter. It is the mind that makes these differences, but that does not matter, because, through its own way of seeing and experiencing the soul or individualised consciousness or whatever you may like to call it, the mental being goes where it has to go. I hope this much is clear as the first step in the matter.
2. I do not dispute at all the fact that one can realise the Self, the Brahman or the Ishwara without going into the overhead regions, the dynamic spiritual planes, or stationing oneself permanently above the body as happens in this yoga.
Even if it is done through the Sahasrara, well, the Sahasrara extends to the spiritualised mind and can be felt in the top of the head, so any ascent above is not indispensable. But, apart from that, one can very well, as you say, realise the Atman if one stands back from the mind and heart, detaches oneself from the parts of Prakriti, ceases to identify oneself with mind, life and body, falls into an inner silence. One need not even explore the kingdoms of the inner mind or inner vital, still less is it compulsory to spread one's wings in ranges above. The Self is everywhere and by entering into full detachment and silence, or even by either detachment or silence, one can get anywhere some glimpse, some reflection, perhaps even a full reflection, or a sense of the Self's presence or of one's own immergence in that which is free, wide, silent, eternal, infinite.
continued....
Broken Yogi/Friends,
Sri Aurobindo continued....
Obviously if it is a pure “I”, of whatever nature, which gets the experience, it must be looked on by the consciousness that has the realisation as the individual self of the Being, Jivatman.
3. One can also have the experience of oneself as not the mind but the thinker, not the heart but the self or “I” which supports the feelings, not the life but that which supports life, not the body but that which assumes a body. This self can be obviously dynamic as well as silent; or else you may say that, even though still and immobile, from its silence it originates the dynamism of Nature. One can also feel this to be the Spirit one in all as well as the true “I” in oneself. All depends on the experience. Very usually, it is the experience of the Purusha, often felt first as the Witness silent, upholding all the nature; but the Purusha can also be experienced as the Knower and the Ishwara. Sometimes it is as or through the mental Purusha in one centre or another, sometimes as or through the vital Purusha that one can become aware of one's self or spirit. It is also possible to become aware of the secret psychic being within by itself as the true individual; or one can be aware of the psychic being as the pure “I” with these others standing in mind or vital as representatives in these domains or on these levels. According to one's experience one may speak of any of these as the Jiva or pure “I” (this last is a very dubious phrase) or the true Person or true Individual who knows himself as one with or a portion of or wholly dependent on the universal or transcendent Being and seeks to merge himself in that or ascend to that and be it or live in oneness with it. All these things are quite possible without any need of the overhead experience or of the stable overhead Permanence.
continued....
Broken Yogi/Friends,
4. One may ask, first, why not then say that the Jivatman which can be realised in this way is the pure “I” of which the lower self has the experience and through which it gets its salvation; and, secondly, what need is there of going into the overhead planes at all? Well, in the first place, this pure “I” does not seem to be absolutely necessary as an intermediary of the liberation whether into the impersonal Self or Brahman or into whatever is eternal. The Buddhists do not admit any soul or self or any experience of the pure “I”; they proceed by dissolving the consciousness into a bundle of Sanskaras, get rid of the Sanskaras and so are liberated into some Permanent which they refuse to describe or some Shunya. So the experience of a pure “I” or Jivatman is not binding on everyone who wants liberation into the Eternal but is content to get it without rising beyond the spiritualised mind into a higher Light above. I myself had my experience of Nirvana and silence in the Brahman, etc. long before there was any knowledge of the overhead spiritual planes; it came first simply by an absolute stillness and blotting out as it were of all mental, emotional and other inner activities - the body continued indeed to see, walk, speak and do its other business, but as an empty automatic machine and nothing more. I did not become aware of any pure “I” nor even of any self, impersonal or other, - there was only an awareness of That as the sole Reality, all else being quite unsubstantial, void, non-real. As to what realised that Reality, it was a nameless consciousness which was not other than That; [Mark that I did not think these things, there were no thoughts or concepts nor did they present themselves like that to any Me; it simply just was so or was self-apparently so.] one could perhaps say this, though hardly even so much as this, since there was no mental concept of it, but not more.
Neither was I aware of any lower soul or outer self called by such and such a personal name that was performing this feat of arriving at the consciousness of Nirvana. Well, then what becomes of your pure “I” and lower “I” in all that? Consciousness (not this or that part of consciousness or an “I” of any kind) suddenly emptied itself of all inner contents and remained aware only of unreal surroundings and of Something real but ineffable. You may say that there must have been a consciousness aware of some perceiving existence, if not of a pure “I”, but, if so, it was something for which these names seem inadequate.
Broken Yogi/Friends,
Sri Aurobindo continued...
5. I have said the overhead ascension is not indispensable for the usual spiritual purposes, - but it is indispensable for the purposes of this yoga. For its aim is to become aware of and liberate and transform and unite all the being in the light of a Truth-consciousness which is above and cannot be reached if there is no entirely inward-going and no transcending and upward-going movement. Hence all the complexity of my psychological statements as a whole, not new in essence - for much of it occurs in the Upanishads and elsewhere, but new in its fullness of collective statement and its developments directed towards an integral yoga. It is not necessary for anyone to accept it unless he concurs in the aim; for other aims it is unnecessary and may very well be excessive.
6. But when one has made the inner exploration and the ascension, when one's consciousness is located above, one cannot be expected to see things precisely as they are seen from below. The Jivatman is for me the Unborn who presides over the individual being and its developments, associated with it but above it and them and who by the very nature of his existence knows himself as universal and transcendent no less than individual and feels the Divine to be his origin, the truth of his being, the master of his nature, the very stuff of his existence. He is plunged in the Divine and one with the Eternal for ever, aware of his own expression and instrumental dynamism which is the Divine's, dependent in love and delight, with adoration on That with which yet through that love and delight he is one, capable of relation in oneness, harmonic in this many-sidedness without contradiction, because this is another consciousness and existence than that of the mind, even of the spiritualised mind; it is an intrinsic consciousness of the Infinite, infinite not only in essence but in capacity, which can be to its own self-awareness all things and yet for ever the same and one. The triune realisation, therefore, full of difficulties for the mind, is quite natural, easy, indisputable to the supramental consciousness or, generally, to the consciousness of the upper hemisphere. It can be seen and felt as knowledge in all the spiritual planes, but the completely indivisible knowledge, the full dynamics of it can only be realised through the supramental consciousness itself on its own plane or by its descent here.
continued....
Broken Yogi/Friends,
Sri Aurobindo continued...
7. The description of a pure “I” is quite insufficient to describe the realisation of the Jivatman - it is rather describable as the true Person or Divine Individual, though that too is not adequate. The word “I” always comes with an under-suggestion of ego, of separativeness; but there is no separativeness in this self-vision, for the individual here is a spiritual living centre of action for the One and feels no separation from all that is the One.
8. The Jivatman has its representative power in the individual nature here; this power is the Purusha upholding the Prakriti - centrally in the psychic, more instrumentally in the mind, vital and physical being and nature. It is therefore possible to regard these or any of them as if they were the Jiva here. All the same I am obliged to make a distinction not only for clear thinking but because of the necessity of experience and integral dynamic self-knowledge without which it is difficult to carry through this yoga. It is not indispensable to formulate mentally to oneself all this, one can have the experience and, if one sees clearly with an inner perception, it is sufficient for progress towards the goal. Nevertheless if the mind is clarified without falling into mental rigidity and error, things are easier for the sadhak of the yoga. But plasticity must be preserved, for loss of plasticity is the danger of a systematic intellectual formulation; one must look into the thing itself and not get tied up in the idea. Nothing of all this can be really grasped except by the actual spiritual experience.
Namaskar.
Dear Broken Yogi,
Yes. Sri Bhagavan's Ekatma principle, was totally based on
His own experience. Later during
Commission of Inquiry, when the advocate asked: "Is your philospohy same as Sri Sankara's?," Sri Bhagavan
replied: "It is my experience. Later, I found that it tallies with
Sri Sankara's."
Sri Bhagavan always side-stopped
all questions on conventional Hinduism. When such questions were asked, He used to say: "First find out who you are? Then let us see whether these things are there or not."
Even on questions of morality, He
never gave importance for them. Once a worker and a lady worker were found to be talking some sweet nothings, about their love,
during construction work. The Administrator promptly dismissed both from service. Sri Bhagavan did not, as usual, interfere with such Asramam matters. Next day,
when He was coming down the Hill,
He found a dog and a bitch were
vigorously copulating. He was observing the scene for a couple of minutes. The devotees were
nonplussed. He then told one of
them: Who is going to dismiss these two?
To add to this view of Sri Bhagavan,
He has rendered in Tamizh, an
Agama work - Devi Kalottaram. One
verse reads as under:
13. There is no room for performing puja, namaskaram, japa, dhyana and so on. Hear from me that the highest truth acclaimed by Vedas can be known only through Jnana. Hence, there is absolutely no need to to know anything outside of oneself.
This is His basic teaching. However, you can find from His conversations, that He permitted all of these, for devotees. It is not a contradiction, but a concession, because all devotees cannot be Sri Bhagavan.
Once at the request of Suri Nagamma, Sri Bhagavan narrated the following incident:
When I was there [in Pachaiamman Kovil], Sri Rangaswamy Iyengar used to come on and off. One day, when he went to answer the calls of nature, it seems he saw a tiger in a bush. When he tried to drive her away by shouting, she replied with a roar. Rangaswamy Iyengar's body shook with a terror and getting up involuntarily from where he had sat, he began running towards me, gasping for breath, and shouting at the top of his voice, 'Oh! Bhagavan! Ramana! Ramana!' I happened to come out for some work as I met him. When I asked him what all his fright was about, he said imploringly, "Ayyo, tiger, tiger! Come Swami, we must go into the temple and close all the doors, otherwise, she will come in. Why don't you come?" I said, laughingly, "Let us wait and see. Where is the tiger? It is nowhere." Pointing towards the bush, he said, "There it is in the bush!" I said "you wait here and I will go and see". When I went there and saw, there was no tiger. Still, he could not shed his fear. I assured him that she was a harmless animal and there was no need to be afraid but he would not believe me.
Another day, while I was sitting on the edge of the tank opposite the temple, that tiger came to drink water and without any fear, roamed about for a while looking at me, and went his way. Rangaswamy Iyengar however, observed all this, hiding himself in the temple. He was afraid what might happen to me. After the tiger left, I went into the temple and relieved him of his fear saying, "Look! What a mild animal he is! If we threaten him, he will attack us. Not otherwise. I thus dispelled his fear. We were not in Pachaiamman temple for long after that."
{Bhagavan Ramana - The Friend of All.]
I heard someone call my name but when I approached the only other person in the house, he said he hadn't....so "An absorbed being has no will but the water's going. Any
word or act is not really personal, but the way the water has of speaking
or doing. As when you hear a voice coming out of a wall, and you know
it's not the wall talking, but someone inside, or perhaps someone outside echoing off the wall. Saints are like that. They've achieved the condition of a wall, or a door"
Rumi
Ravi,
Thanks for the Aurobindo quotes. I hope you know that I love Ramakrishna, Ramana, and so many of the Indian saints and sages it's not possible to name them all. But...for the life of me, I've never been able to relate to or find even remotely interesting or useful a single thing Aurobindo has ever said. I don't know why this is. It's undoubtedly my own fault. I'm not proud of it, but I simply can't see him as in any way deserving of his widespread fame and reputation and respect. And yet so many do. Not sure what to make of that.
Dear devotees,
I am a regular reader of this blog site. Where else I can share my grief than here.
I came to Bhagavan on March 2010 after my craving for pleasure combined with excessive ego met its deserving material blow, the great blow that instilled fear in me.
Even from childhood I was into traditional advaitic, vaishnaivic and different sects, but not before March 2010 I appreciated and surrendered myself to Bhagavan Ramana.
Even though I read good books like I am that, Ramana's books and spend good amount of time in vichara, to this date my sexual desires, passions and fear have not reduced a bit. Even for that matter fear does not produce as much harm as kamam does.
I even cried before Para Shakthi to save me from this kamam desires and give me peace of mind. No success whatsoever, my self inquiry all along the day could not save me from getting into that trap again every night.
Every night is a failure for me. I was a great sinner and even now after great blows of material life, the kama desires are not fully destroyed.
Coming to the Guru krupa, I have found my living Gurus but I cannot get their physical darshan. So sometimes I doubt them. Even though I keep on repeating their names or thinking about them. I carry the burden of doubts which are only my bad karma but somehow within me due to a drop of punya I think about them at least once a day.
I think this Guru krupa part most of we people are lagging in this era esp. after Papaji, Nisarghatta Maharaj and Annamalai Swamy all left before 2000 itself.
Everywhere I will arrive late only in material life. In spiritual life also I think I was late. Born in 1983 and wandering all the way carrying bhakthi in one hand and kamam in another hand, mine is a life full of conflicts, contradictions only.
I should have missed a great opportunity of a living guru in my purva janmaa. Otherwise I wont suffer this much without a physical contact of a sadguru. Even though I am a great sinner, my expectations from a Divine Sad Guru has not reduced a bit. So I am not settling with someone whom I could not somehow fully surrender to. Result is I have chosen Mathru Sri Sarada my beloved Mother but will Mother care to see such a sinner like me who at the same time doubts her also (to some extent)? What is this conflict going on within me? What is this leela? To find a sadguru, to be bereft of their darshan, to doubt her and still chant her name? Shame on my part.
Without complete celibacy what is the use in sinners like me doing vichara or reading scriptures?
You people discuss so many things -- Is there a way out for sinners like me? At least will I escape hell?
I am ready to wait eternally with this ego, but oh My Mother please do not give kamam desires to me anymore.
Enough of it, I do not want anything anymore.
A reply to Broken Yogi:
Dear Broken Yogi,
You are the best if you subtract this too much intellectualism from you.
You told you are not able to appreciate the fame which Sri Aurobindo is worthy of. Well, I will tell from my experience, when I first adored him and Mirra the Mother, I was not thinking of any other Guru, but did not have peace of mind. But finally Aurobindo took me to Ramana and told Ramana to take care of this boy. Now I am very peaceful and self enquiry suits me best. Occasionally I go to Aurubindo meditation centre in Bangalore and I surprisingly find that my mind is very quiet.
What Aurobindo tells in Integral yoga? Only to have complete trust in the Divine and surrender unreservedly. This is another way of seeing Truth. What Mirra tells? To bring divinity and eternity in this body itself, which is a matter.
While Ramana says this world is a dream , Aurobindo sees this world as para brahman and want to continue this into eternity. Goal is always eternity.
All that glitters are not gold, the truth will withstand, the falsehood will fall one day or other, Aurubindo spoke Truth, that is why he withstands all these days.
Somebody even doubted Ramakrishna Paramahams and wrote a stupid book "the Kali's child". Ravi can tell us more info ;) ;)
But what happens now?
Aurobindo's method is also very simple, light a lamp, put some flowers, invoke from your deepest being the highest divine principe into that lamp, light an incense and sit surrendering yourself completely. You will taste the nectar.
Our Ramana Maharishee dissolves you while Aurubindo converts everything you do into Divine. Both are same.
I have a humble advise - to be on the safer side, dont ever speak other side about a Guru whoever may be. Aurobindo is a fire. Why to go near?
I understand you are not disrespecting him, but why this doubt even? Leave it, put it aside.
Same applies to current day criticizers of Nome. Why go into that business? If you cannot get the peace, your destiny lies somewhere else. But dont try to speculate.
Who knows which will add to our already heavy loaded bad karmas?
This advise is not only for Broken yogi, everybody else.
Ammachi is there. Ananda mayi maa was there. Muralidhara swami is there. If you like go to them, otherwise please stop thinking about them.
If you have found your sad guru and stick to him completely, that is enough, even Brahma or Vishnu or Rudra cannot harm you.
Broken yogi - this is my humble request, you need to develop more and more devotion, you should chant namo ramana.....stop your buddhism and other intellectual technqiues....you already passed the Maths exam....please pass this English literature exam.....
Remember you should have a minimum score in all this ;)
Sometimes when I read your blog topics, I become happy in one way wondering your intellectual capacity. On other hand, I will think of scolding you to be like this. Leave aside all your jnana margam come with the hands, clap and chant hare ramana hare ramana
Sorry if I have hurt you, but with some fellow devotee affection I took liberty on you.
;) ;)
Dear Anon.,
You must be a new Anon. I am not sure. There are already some Anons in this Forum.
Nobody is a sinner. Everyone
is a Jnani, as Sri Bhagavan says. Only some of us have got more ego dust hiding the Self and some of us have got less ego dust hiding the Self. If the Self is the Sun, the ego dust is cloud. The clouds would move away one day. Sri Bhagavan's avatara is for gracing the people and not for punishing anyone. He has Himself said: I have come here to grace everyone. If I start punishing the wrong ones, not even a crow would fly over the Asramam.
So, first remove the thoughts that you are a sinner, with lust etc., All these will disappear, like clouds hiding the Sun. Then the Sun, the son of Siva, Sri Bhagavan will shine forth in your heart.
What you should do? Place faith in Sri Bhagavan. If you cannot do self inquiry, start surrendering to Him. Even a partial surrender would do, in the beginning. This partial surrender will blossom into full surrender one day. Perseverance and efforts are the must. If you are somewhere in India, spend at least some three days in the Asramam every year. Other times, you pray to His photograph. Read His books and other reminiscences of other devotees. Openly tell Him your problems and seek His grace. It might take time, but you should go about with perseverance and efforts. Dividends are bound to come to you. Listen to the songs of Sri Bhagavan from CD and tapes. Have a daily routine, of spending some time in listening to His songs and reading His books. If you can, you can avoid TV and cinemas which are, as in today's standards, show only violence and kama. Keep away from such programmes at least. Chant some mantra. He has suggested Rama Nama mantra, Siva, Siva to many devotees. One of these would help you to bring the kind to attention towards Sri Bhagavan.
Please try for some three months and let me know. Sri Bhagavan would never forsake anyone. There is no hell or heaven or rebirth for those who have surrendered to Him.
Broken Yogi,
I understand what you have said about Sri aurobindo;his writings are not an easy read.In fact one of his disciples cheekily told him that perhaps only 2 persons understood his Life Divine-one is the Mother and the Other Sri Aurobindo himself!
I happen to read a small book ,a compilation from his 'Letters on Yoga' when in college and this helped me immensely.I somehow got onto it intuitively and in 1974 visited his asramam and came to be acquainted with his integral Yoga through his other works.
I read his Secret of the Vedas and was enchanted by the breath and sweep of his insight and the valuable key that he has provided to what is usually dismissed as chants of the Karma kanda.I also read his marvellous essays on the Bhagavad Gita-I still consider this as one of the most original and insightful commentary on the Gita-avoiding the usual traps that most commentators do,to emphasize one or the other aspect of Jnana,bhakti or Karma and casting it in the philosophical system to which they belong.
More than anything,he is an adventurer of the spiritual realm and is a Dynamic spiritual presence;Like our friend Anonymous has said,a tremendous spiritual dynamo,as many who has visited his samAdhi in pondicherry will testify.
There is an interesting article on Sri Aurobindo by Craig Hamilton-Why Sri Aurobindo is cool?Here is an excerpt:
"Isn't he extremely hard to read?" one of my colleagues had asked straightaway, "as if somehow he accidentally got his genes crossed with a German philosopher or something?" I couldn't deny that he was in fact a tough read, having first learned to write in Latin and Greek, two languages in which the construction of long sentences is actually a sort of high art. But nonetheless, I knew that my only chance to win my case lay in reading a few passages aloud:
The animal is a living laboratory in which Nature has, it is said, worked out man. Man himself may well be a thinking and living laboratory in whom and with whose conscious co-operation she wills to work out the superman, the god.
That got their attention. I read a little more:
. . . for the full and perfect fulfillment of the evolutionary urge, [the spiritual] illumination and change must take up and re-create the whole being, mind, life and body: it must be not only an inner experience of the Divinity but a remoulding of both the inner and outer existence by its power; it must take form not only in the life of the individual but as a collective life of gnostic beings established as a highest power and form of the becoming of the Spirit in the earth-nature."
If you are interested,you may refer:
http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j21/aurobindo.asp?page=1
Namaskar.
Anonymous,
It is important to get hold of one's life and put it on a sound footing-You are only 27 and it is only natural that the sexual urge will peak itself at this age-and this needs to be handled intelligently.
It is important that you should focus on your material and financial objectives and strive to become stable and independent.This is quite important for one to pursue life as a householder-a majority of people are not cutout to live a celibate life.The Sexual desire can be more easily tamed by living the life of an honourable householder,and one will certainly be able to pursue the spiritual path.Yet the implication is that one has to be a Responsible person-willing to put in hardwork,willing to sacrifice personal comforts.For in addition to oneself,one has to take charge of one's spouse and children.This in itself is a Great discipline that will stand one in good stead.
Please strive to improve your financial condition -and this would be a good foundation to lead life as a householder.You need to take charge of your life and not use 'guru' as a crutch.
Try to understand yourself-as you are and not as you would like to be.Think straight and face it fearlessly-Do not fight your nature but help it along intelligently.Plan and achieve your short term objectives.You may continue your Sadhana in and through this.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
Anonymous:
please don't despair. the very fact you wish to rid yourself of 'kAmam' is a result of grace :-) experienced veterans as ravi/ subramanian/ broken yogi/ arvind etc. will certainly be able to advise & help you better. in the current state in which you seem to be, don't know how receptive you might be, nonetheless here are a few suggestions:
1. don't stay alone; don't sleep alone. stay with a couple of 'good' friends.
2. in addition to a job, cultivate an active hobby (play a sport/ learn a musical instrument/ study mathematics etc.); keep playing or studying till you can do nothing but fall asleep. if your head is 'idle' and also don't know what to do, don't force yourself to reading about bhagavAn or doing vichAra - play or study first - be 'healthy' & be 'brave' first - bhagavAn can wait!
3. there are prANAyAmas which can help you - refer a good text (svAmi sivAnandA's books are very good) and talk to a yoga instructor nearby to get the method right (don't try any prANAyAma directly from a book).
4. it appears you aren't married; ever thought of marriage? if not, please get married, have a child - i have known people whose lives have become a lot more healthier & brighter after a child (or a couple of children).
5. 'complete celibacy' is possible only for a brahmajnAnI - neither break your head with it nor brand yourself as a 'sinner' (one who keeps calling himself a 'sinner' is a wretched sinner indeed!)
cheer up, keep smiling, ambAL will help (she better do) :-)))
Anon,
Thank you for your advice. I can certainly use more devotion in my life. However, having an intellectual bent does not mean a lack of devotion. My own spiritual disposition has largely been that of a bhakta throughout my life, despite being an "intellectual". My spiritual practice for most of my life was that of bhakti, devotion, service, surrender, chanting, recitation, puja, etc. Very little in the way of jnana yoga, actually, until some 5-6 years ago when I began to study Ramana and self-enquiry.
Even so, my own relationship to Ramana is primarily that of devotion, and only secondarily that of self-enquiry. It is only that Ramana asks that devotion to him be expressed through self-enquiry, so that is what I do. If he asked that people use his name as a mantra, I would do that, but since he does not, I do not. That is also devotion.
As for Aurobindo, I don't want to run him down, but I simply can't see him as so many others do. It's not for lack of intellectual ability to understand his writings. I have no desire to offend anyone, I am just being honest. He strikes me as someone with much yogic energy and experience, and a strong cultural sensibility for his times, but I simply don't see him as a genuine jnani, siddha, whatever you want to call it. I am greatly attracted to Bhakti-Gurus, so that is not the problem. Anandamayai Ma sends me into a swoon, for example. But Aurobindo leaves me cold. I don't see them as remotely on the same level.
My general impression of Aurobindo is on the same plane as the kind of people often found in the west who have a high degree of intellectual and yogic experience and interest, who become rather famous as teachers and form groups of some kind, and make an impression on the spiritual scene here, but who fall far short of the genuine jnanis and bhaktas. The Craig Hamilton/Ken Wilber type that you quoted, for example. These people just leave me cold also. But perhaps this is just my own idiosyncratic nature. Or perhaps I'm reacting to something in them that is also in me. No worries. One doesn't have to appreciate everyone and everything. It's enough to fully appreciate even one genuine teacher. The rest is just water off a duck's back.
Anon in trouble,
Your letter is very moving. I think you make a wise choice in considering Murthra Sri Sarada as your Guru, even though she doesn't see many people or cultivate that kind of role. I would encourage you to continue pursuing her regardless of what is practical. Just love her, and don't care for what comes of that. Don't expect satisfaction, just expect heartbreak. That is love, you know?
As for your sexual urges, you can't really change your disposition and inclinations. As Ravi said, perhaps become a householder. But for now, it's best in my view to cease taking the attitude that what you are doing is sinful, even if others do not. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, as they say. So if you can't stop the sexual urge, just embrace it as a form of love and devotion. I mean that even if you are seeing prostitutes. Love them, devote yourself to sex with all your being, unleash whatever energies you have in you through love and even the love of pleasure. This will actually help transform your desires into something more stable. Love has miraculous power.
If you combine the sexual urge with love, it will become love also. Love can't be resisted. In this way, your sexual desires will become forms of love, and that will probably help stabilize them. You may find yourself falling in love with a woman and getting married. You will at least be happier and less consumed with guilt and the sense of being a sinner.
Sin is not about sex, it is about lovelessness. It means "to miss the mark", and the mark is love. So your problem is not really a sexual problem, it is a lovelessness problem. You need to solve it by loving more, not by suppressing your sexual desires. Right now you are suffering from a suppression of your love. That is where guilt and the sense of being a sinner comes from. To repent from this, you need to love more, not have sex less. Sex is nothing, really, love is everything. If you bring love into your sex life, it will overwhelm and transform it, because sex is nothing compared to love. It can't withstand the force of love, even the love of pleasure.
So really, just enjoy yourself. Love is the most pleasurable experience there is, so love. Have as much sex as you like, don't worry about it in the least. Love the one you're with, as they say. Love the pleasure you get and give. And let that love discipline and control you, since you don't seem capable of disciplining or controlling yourself without it. Don't worry or feel depressed about it either, because that is just indulging in more loveless moods.
This may seem like rather odd advice, but I think it may end up suiting you. And don't in any way see your sexual urges as an obstacle to your spiritual practice and growth in devotion to God. That is all just concepts in the mind that should never interfere with your personal life of spiritual devotion. If someone tells you otherwise, ignore them. You can't really change your own disposition or tendencies. Only love can do that. So love more, in the midst of what you are already doing, and see what comes of it. You might be surprised and delighted at the outcome.
I cannot give advice to that anon, because I am not a jnani. I'm sure, with sincerity, he will figure it out. As I am.
I agree with another commentator about not criticizing jnanis, or even people one thinks are not realized. For one, things are not what they seem to a deluded mind. If someone is not helpful at that particular moment, look somewhere else. I have to say, in my own experience, nothing is as helpful as a living Guru. But I guess, if one looks for that first, one may be led astray by their deluded mind, if they don't have the sincerity or depth. Living in the U.S., for me, Nome is sufficient, a true Brahma-Jnani. If i lived elsewhere, like India, maybe Nannagaru. Or maybe I would try Lakshmana Swami's ashram. Sufficient sincerity, and no other Guru, they may be willing to help. Though, if still stuck on the intellectual level, one may not be ready for a living sadguru.
http://www.satramana.org/Reflections_JanFebMar2011.pdf
This is the most recent issue of SAT Temple's Reflections.
This is the same person as Losing M. Mind:
In my personal experience, with romance, and sexuality, and it's relation to the Self and spirituality. I'm unwilling from my experience to say that it is in the same direction, or counter to being spiritual. The Bhagavad Gita does say that there are 3 doors to hell. Lust, Rage, and Greed.
But, I am around Nome, who I know experientially to be a true jnani, and a powerful Guru. How that plays out in the manifest life, of this supposed person, the way grace changes this life, may be in an individual way.
I had a lot of difficulties with shyness in regards to romantic-stuff. Recently, I've been taking social risks a lot more. And I still associate with the punk-anarchist scene (which is not very overtly spiritual). I was never overtly spiritual. The level at which i got ushered so to speak into this Jnani's Presence, is at a level, far beyond what I am at the manifest level, way beyond my intentions. I didn't believe in the idea of having a guru. But my sincere efforts somehow made it so I was drawn into this sadguru's presence by Grace.
I have no words for what it is like, only that Nome is exactly like Maharshi. Exactly!!!! It's just like finding myself in the Power of the Presence stories. Nome, has quite a few South Indian disciples, and is respected at Ramanasramam. He supplied his graceful wisdom to the translations of many works, including the Ribhu Gita. Saddarshanam is an excellent work. I believe A.R. Natarajan knew and respected that Nome was truly Realized.
Dear Anon, Please stop beating yourself up. Just don't exploit people and then brood about it after the event. Brooding often shows the mind is full of self pity, unsteady and a waste of energy. Certainly celibacy points to restraint and spiritual maturity.
I have known several people over the years who were celibate both men and women.
The Buddhist monks were inspirational. Light hearted, seemingly without burdens, laughing easily and a delight to talk to and be with.
I was also blessed to meet some of
Ramana's extraordinary, old disciples including Annamalai Swami. They were the most natural of men, joyful and talking freely with those who came.
Faith and courage is always needed.
Broken Yogi/Friends,
Interesting to see Broken Yogi's view on Sri Aurobindo.For those interested in Sri Aurobindo,there are two books by his disciples that I would recommend-'Sri Aurobindo came to me'-by Sri Dilip Kumar Roy(a great bhakta) that reveals the wonderful and compassionate guru that Sri Aurobindo was.
The other one is 'Twelve Years with Sri Aurobindo'by Sri Nirodbaran-that gives an intimate account of Sri Aurobindo.Here is an excerpt from Nirodbaran's account:
This was the house in which Sri Aurobindo and the Mother lived for about a decade before we broke into their seclusion. Sri Aurobindo had not gone one step out of this house, nor seen any visitors or inmates; only Champaklal, his personal attendant, had glimpses of him. He used to find his body shining like gold. Our work too was to serve the Lord as is done in the temple, – not as medical attendants, for henceforth he needed none – but to minister to his physical and other minor needs, to be near him, even to amuse him by our talk and presence. That was our Yoga. What better way could there be than to serve personally the Guru, the Divine? Sri Ramakrishna had said to his nephew Hriday, "Serve me and you will get all you want." We had no particular want till then and all our heart was offered to him in utter dedication. It is gratifying for us to remember that Sri Aurobindo had said in the beginning that he was happy to have such a team to serve him. Service was our life, and the hours passed "with a moon-imprinted sail". Sri Aurobindo did not require, in fact, so many hands, since he had almost recovered the use of his own limbs, but it was not Sri Aurobindo's or the Mother's way to dispense with someone, even something, as soon as their need of him was over. Their grace Would always be with him.
How did we serve him? The best way to give a clear idea about it would be to present a picture of Sri Aurobindo's daily life, now that it had fallen into a
definite pattern and woven our activities into it. However, I fear that in depicting his external life, some misconception may be created in the minds of the readers about his real Self. Since man is usually led by surface appearance and expressions, we are likely to be taken up by his outward gestures or words and have not the least idea of the vast consciousness from which these movements flowed. For instance, when he talked to us as a friend, could we ever "have imagined that he was the Divine talking to us as divine beings? When he saw Dr. Manilal, could Manilal have perceived that "it was no longer Dr. Manilal but the Divine living in the Divine" that he saw? How could we guess that living confined within the body and the small room, he saw "Paris, Tokyo and New York"? He could say, "My soul unhorizoned widens to measureless sight." Referring to a certain context I once told him, "I am satisfied with you as Sri Aurobindo pure and simple." He replied, "No objection, I only suggested that I don't know who this Sri Aurobindo pure and simple is. If you do, I congratulate you."
continued.....
Friends,
'Twelve Years with Sri aurobindo' continued...
Far be it from me to read his inner consciousness from his outer activities. Once I asked him to tell me the names of those who were enjoying the Brahmic consciousness so that I could have a practical knowledge of it! He replied, "How can you have a practical knowledge of it by knowing who has it? You might just as well expect to have a practical knowledge of high mathematics by knowing that Einstein is a great mathematician." His written works leave us in no doubt about the heights of consciousness to which he soared, the depths he has explored and his constant status of consciousness. But how they would influence, affect his daily human activities is a question of perennial interest. Did not Arjuna pose that question to Sri Krishna? The activities themselves may not shed any light on his inner divinity, especially to a superficial gaze. Still, the truly great touch everything they do and say with a sense of greatness. Hence, my attempt to make a selective sketch of Sri Aurobindo's outer life for the world –eye to have a glimpse of the riddle that he was throughout his earthly existence.
Many fantastic tales were abroad about his outer life, gaining ground and credit because of his living in seclusion. Some people believed that he neither ate nor slept, but remained absorbed in Samadhi. Others had heard that he could keep his body suspended in the air. Some there were who, like Arjuna, wanted genuinely to know how he spoke, how he sat and walked. The Mother had, at one time, discouraged us from dwelling upon these external aspects for fear that people's minds would be deflected from the Reality. After all it is not what a man appears to be which is most important. And we can affirm that all Sri Aurobindo's actions welled from the Divine Consciousness that he embodied: they were yukta karma. But how to demonstrate this? By having a practical knowledge of his day –to –day activity? Well, he who sees, sees!
Let us then begin from the very break of day. The sun's rays came in by the eastern window; he was awake and the exercises started in bed, prescribed by Manilal. By 6.30 a.m. he sat up to receive the Mother who on her way to the Balcony Darshan visited him to have his darshan. Sri Aurobindo gave us definite instructions to wake him up before the Mother's arrival. On the other hand, the Mother wanted us not to disturb his sleep. So at times we found ourselves in a quandary. Champaklal's devotional nature would not interrupt his sweet nap after the exercises, while I, when alone, would try by all sorts of devices to wake him up. Sometimes he himself would wake up only to learn that the Mother had come and gone! Then she would come back after the darshan and begin her day with his blessings, just as we did after her darshan. This was followed by his reading The Hindu. Between 9.00 a.m. and 10.00 a.m. the Mother came to comb his hair, apply a lotion and plait it. Most often she finished some business during this period. When a sadhak translated the Mother's Prayers and Meditations into English and wanted her approval, she had it read out before Sri Aurobindo and both of them made the necessary changes. She sometimes talked of private matters, and when her voice sank low, we took the hint and withdrew discreetly. She believed more in subtle methods than in open expressions. The gesture, the look, the smile, the fugitive glance, the silence, a thousand are her ways of communication to the soul! After the Mother had left, there started the routine of washing the face and mouth. Here a small detail calls for mention by its unusualness. When he had finished using Neem paste for his teeth and the mouth-wash (Vademecum), he massaged his gums with a little bit of Oriental Balm.
After this, till 3 or 4 p.m. Sri Aurobindo was all alone.
continued...
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo continued....
There were occasions, though rare, when we had to intrude upon his strict privacy. An urgent call from the Ashram Press about some proof corrections of his book demanded his immediate attention. I cautiously approached from behind and stood near him. He asked without turning my way, in an impersonal tone, "What is it?" A moment's ripple in the vast even ocean of silence. The Mother always felt that pervasive silence whenever she entered the room. I informed him of the queries from the Press. There were some proof - readers who had the Johnsonian mind; they could not accept Sri Aurobindo's flexible use of prepositions or some new turns of phrases. Either they thought these were due to oversight or was it their grammarian pedantry that made them wiser than he? At last he had to remark, "Let them not interfere with my English!" His admonitions were always gentle. When the Mother heard about it, she observed, "How do they dare correct his English? Sri Aurobindo is a gentleman; he won't say anything that might hurt – I am not a gentleman." We understood very well what the Mother meant. A few anecdotes to illustrate the point. When Sri Aurobindo was living with his family in Calcutta, Sarojini, his younger sister, made frequent complaints about the rudeness and impertinence of their cook. Sri Aurobindo simply listened and forgot all about it. Sarojini at last lost her patience and urged upon him a drastic step. Sri Aurobindo called the cook in a grave voice and asked, "I hear you have behaved rudely. Don't do it again!" Everybody was disappointed at this anticlimax and realised that no further strictness could be expected of him. So too when the Mother once brought a complaint to him against a sadhak who, in a fit of temper, had beaten somebody, "This is the third time! What should be done? I want your sanction, Lord," she said. Sri Aurobindo calmly replied, "Let him be given a final warning." We knew very well that this "final warning" could not be really final.
Continued...
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo continued...
The long stretch of silence ceased only with the arrival of his first and principal meal of the day. Still we hardly ever heard him express that his "stomach was getting unsteady". The day's second meal, supper, had to be quite light. Let me stress one thing at the very outset: in his whole tenor of life, he followed the rule laid down by the Gita, moderation in everything. This was his teaching as well as his practice. To look at the outward commonplaceness of his life, eating, sleeping, joking, etc., and to make a leaping statement that here was another man like oneself, would be logical, but not true. Similarly in Sri Aurobindo's Yoga, even a high experience must not disturb the normal rhythm of life. Naturally, I was extremely curious, and so were the others, I believe, to see what kind of food he took; had he any preference for a particular dish and how much ' had he in common with our taste? We had to wait a long time before he regained his health, and could sit up and "enjoy" a proper meal. As soon as people learnt about it, dishes from various sadhikas began to pour in as for the Deity in the temple. And just as the Deity does, so did he, or rather the Mother did on his behalf: only a little from a dish was offered to him and all the rest was sent back as prasād. For his regular meal, there were a few devotees like Amiya, Nolina and Mridu selected by the Mother for their good cooking, which Sri Aurobindo specially liked. Mridu was a simple Bengali village widow. She, like other ladies here, called Sri Aurobindo her father, and took great pride in cooking for him. Her "father" liked her luchis very much, she would boast, and these creations of hers have been immortalised by him in one of his letters to her. She was given to maniacal fits of threatening suicide, and Sri Aurobindo would console her with, "If you commit suicide, who will cook luchis for me?" Her cooking got such wide publicity that the house she lived in was named Prasād. ....
Steadiness and silence were the characteristic stamps of Sri Aurobindo. Dhira, according to him, was the ideal of Aryan culture. Hurry and hustle were words not found in his dictionary. Be it eating, drinking, walking or talking – he did it always in a slow and measured rhythm, giving the impression that every movement was conscious and consecrated. The Mother would punctuate the silence with queries like, "How do you like that dish?" or such remarks as, "This mushroom is grown here, this is special brinjal sent from Benares, this is butterfruit." To all, Sri Aurobindo's reply would be, "Oh, I see! Quite good!" Typically English in manner and tone! His silence or laconic praise made us wonder if he had not lost all distinction in taste! Did rasagolla, bread and brinjal have the same taste in the Divine sense-experience? Making this vital point clear, he wrote in a letter: "Distinction is never
lost, bread cannot be as tasty as a luchi, but a yogi can enjoy bread with as much rasa as a luchi – which is quite a different thing."
-----------------------------------
Sri aurobindo was quite unassuming,impersonal but never cold.
Namaskar.
Friends,
Here is a wonderful excerpt from the writings of Sri Aurobindo:
"The touch of earth is always invigorating to the son of Earth, even when he seeks a supra physical Knowledge. It may even be said that the supraphysical can only be really mastered in its fullness -- to its heights we can always reach -- when we keep our feet firmly on the physical. 'Earth is His footing' says the Upanishad. whenever it images the Self that manifests in the universe."
Sri Aurobino's Savitri is a wonderful epic poem-symbolical and where the Master has covered entire spectrum of Spiritual experience.
Namaskar.
You know, you don't need to try to do missionary work for Aurobindo here. I'm not trying to put him down, he's just not for me. Nothing personal.
As for not criticizing jnanis, does that mean if I call myself a jnani, no one here will ever be able to criticize me?
Talks No. 105:
Sri B: Yena asrutam srutam bhavati
[Chandogya Upanishad]. By knowing which, all the unknown becomes known.
Madhavaswami, Sri Bhagavan's attendant: Are there nine methods
of teaching the Mahavakya - 'Tattvamasi' in the Chandogya Upanishad?
Sri B: No. Not so. The method is only one. Uddalaka started teaching Sat eva Somya ....[There is only Being...] illusrating it with Svetaketu's fast.
1. Sat, Being in the individual, is made obvious by the fast.
2. This Sat [Being] is similar in all, as honey gathered from different flowers.
3. There is no difference in the Sat of individuals as illustrated by the state of deep sleep. The question arises, -- if so, why does not each know it in sleep?
4. Because the individuality is lost. There is only Sat left. Illustration: rivers lost in the ocean. If lost, is there Sat?
5. Surely - as when a tree is pruned, it grows again. That is a sure sign of its life. But is it there even in that dormant condition?
6. Yes. Take the instance of salt and water. The presence of the salt in water is subtle. Though invisible to the eye, it is recognized by other senses. How is one to know it? What is the other means?
7. By inquiry, as the man left in the Gandhara forest regained his home.
8. In evolution and involution, in manifestation and resolution, Sat alone exists. Tejah parasyam, devatyam [the Light merges in the Supreme].
9. An insincere man is hurt by the touch of fire test. His insincerity is brought out by fire. Sincerity is Self-evident. A true man or a Self realized man remains happy, without being affected by the false appearances, [namely, the world, birth and death, etc.,] whereas the false or ignorant man is miserable.
Talks No. 108:
In continuation of dialogue in Talk No. 105, Sri Bhagavan said:
Uddalaka explained that all proceeds
from Sat [as illustrated by deep sleep].
The body take food. Food requires water. Water requires heat to digest food. [Tejo mulamanvichara]. It is Sat parasyam devatayam. [merged in the Be-ing]. If we are Sat sampannah [merged in the Being, how is that we do not realize it?
Just as honey gathered from different flowers forms the bulk in honeycomb, and each drop does not indicate wherefrom it has been collected, so also sat sampannah in deep sleep, death etc., People do not recognize their individualities. They slip into that state unawares. But when they wake up they regain their original individual characteristics.
D: Honey, though collected from different flowers, becomes the bulk and does not possess individual characteristics. But the individual parts do not also exist in drops and they do not return to their sources. Whereas the individuals after going to deep sleep wake up individuals as formerly. How is it?
Sri B: Just as the rivers discharged into the ocean lose their individualities, still waters, still the waters evaporate and return as rain on the hills and through rivers to the ocean, so also the individuals going to sleep lose their individualities, and yet return as individuals according to their previous vasanas unawares. Thus, even in their death, Sat is no lost.
D: How can that be?
Sri B: See how a tree, whose branches are cut, grows again. So long as the life-force is not affected it will grow. Similarly, the samskaras [anamneses] sink into the heart in death. They do not perish. They will in right time sprout forth from the heart. That is how the jivas are reborn.
[to be contd.]
Talks No. 108 [contd.,]
D: How does the wide universe sprout forth from such a subtle samskaras remaining sunk in the heart?
Sri B: Just as a big banyan tree sprouts from a tiny seed, so the wide universe with names and forms sprouts from the heart.
D: If the origin is Sat why is it not felt?
Sri B: The salt in the lump is visible. It is invisible in solution. Still its existence is known by taste. Similarly, Sat, though not recognized by the intellect, can still be realized in a different way, i.e. transcendentally.
D: How?
Sri B: Just as a man blindfolded and left by robbers in a jungle inquires his way home and returns there, so also the ignorant one [blinded by ignorance] inquires of those not so blinded and seeks his own source and returns to it.
Then, Gurupadesa, -- "Vang manasi samadyate, manah prane, pranastejasi, tejaha parasyam devtyam iti."
D: If so, a Jnani or an Ajnani dies in the same manner. Why is an ajnani reborn, whereas a Jnani is not?
Sri B: Just as an innocent man stayabhisandha is not affected by the test of touching red hot iron but a thief is affected, so also the sadbrahma satyabhisandha i.e a Jnani, enters into Sat consciously and merges, whereas the other enters unaware and is thrown out unawares also.
[concluded]
There are several examples in the puranas, regarding the Jnanis not being affected by such misfortunes like touching a red hot iron rod.
1. Prahlada - He could not be killed by his demon father, by any means, since he was constantly contemplating Narayana in heart.
2. Saint Tirunavukkarasar - he was also placed into a burning lime-kiln, then into deep ocean tied to a rock, then was given poison etc., but he never felt any pain or misery. He said: They were all like melodious Veena recital, evening full moon on a hot summer day, the spring time, the cool pond where the bees swarm for the honey on the lotus, because he was contemplating on Siva's feet all through.
How does even birth in Tiruvavrur or seeing Chidambaram, or dying in Kasi, or even remembering Arunachala, confer mukti?
Sri Bhagavan explains in Talks No. 473:
Darsanad Abhrasadsi - To see Chidambaram, is to see the Seat of
Consciousness.
Jananat Kamalalaye - To be born in Tiruvarur [Kamalalyam] - to be born in the Heart.
Maranam muktih Kasyantu - to quell your mind in the Light of Realization.
Smaranad Arunachale - Remembering Arunachala for ever.
something to share -
Dakshinamurty is supposed to be there behind the Manasa Sarovar Lake -
Manasa - Mind
Saraovara - lake
Behind the mind and its content is Dakshninamurty - OurSelf
We have this Great Nama of Lord Shiva -
Manonmani
Mind of the Mind.
The Mind and its contents is known to you - Self That is Manonmani!
something to share -
Dakshinamurty is supposed to be there behind the Manasa Sarovar Lake -
Manasa - Mind
Saraovara - lake
Behind the mind and its content is Dakshninamurty - OurSelf
We have this Great Nama of Lord Shiva -
Manonmani
Mind of the Mind.
The Mind and its contents is known to you - Self That is Manonmani!
In the same Talks No. 473:
D: I think of Arunachala. But still I am not a mukta.
Sri B: Change of outlook is all that is necessary. See what such a change did for Arjuna. He had the vision of the Cosmic Self. Sri Krishna says: "Gods and saints are eager to see my Cosmic Form. I have not fulfilled their desires. Yet I endow divine sight by which you can see my Form."
Well, having said so, does He show what He is? No. He asks Arjuna to see in Him all that HE DESIRES TO SEE. If that were His real form, it must be changeless and known
for what it is worth. Instead, Arjuna is commanded to see whatever he desires. So where is the Cosmic Form? It must be in Arjuna.
Furthermore, Arjuna finds Gods and saints in that form and they are praising the Lord. If the form be with held from the Gods and saints as said by Krishna, who are they
of Arjuna's vision?
D: They must be in his imagination.
Sri B: They are because of Arjuna's outlook.
D: Then the outlook must be changed by God's grace.
Sri B: Yes. That happens to bhaktas.
Dear Dakshinamurty,
Yes. God is beyond mental comprehension. He is beyond what eyes can see. No one can see or think of Him. He is the mind of the mind, eye of the eye, He can only be realized. Then no seeing or thinking only Being.
salutations to all:
Broken Yogi:
just to clarify -
am also not much inclined to aurobindo's writings but i think ravi was merely attempting to say why aurobindo's writings are not as difficult as they may appear to be, thats all. wonder where was the need for you to say ["...you don't need to try to do missionary work for Aurobindo here..."]! by the way, hope you remember ravi was prompted to answer because of 'your' statement ["...but I simply can't see him as in any way deserving of his widespread fame and reputation and respect. And yet so many do. Not sure what to make of that..."]! :-)
if something is not to your tast, why not simply ignore it? after all, there isn't a need to 'hit back' this way because nobody here is trying to drive down anything into anybody, isn't it? and, regarding the 'missionary' thing, all missionary perversions emanate from the west (indians aren't known to indulge in the perfidy of 'converting' anybody through missionary work...) :-) you too have been unceasingly going on propagating the alleged similarities between the buddhistic approach and the vedAntic methods - did anyone ask you to stop then???
[i can't comment on your understanding of buddhism but this much i can say if one hasn't mastered sanskrt, one can't know anything 'intellectually' worthy of talking anything about vedAnta in general & advaitA in particular... hope you wouldn't say 'did bhagavAn know sanskrt?'!!!] :-)
S,
Let's be clear. I didn't bring Aurobindo up. I posted some thoughts of mine about Ramana, Buddhism, Advaita, etc. Ravi posted something from Aurobindo in response. I merely said that I don't find Aurobindo's writings in general anything I can much relate to. I was hoping Ravi would take the hint and use some other authoritative source to make his point. I tried to be polite about it, and I still am trying. Nevertheless, he keeps posting things in some inexplicable effort to convince me of Aurobindo's worthiness. I can't really comprehend why. My opinion can't mean very much.
As I explained, it's not that I find Aurobindo difficult to understand. I just don't find his words resonate with me. I don't get that sense of living jnana as I do with other Indian saints and sages. No reason to analyze further. He's a good and talented writer with a poetic sensibility. I just don't happen to find him in any way compelling. Force-feeding me more quotes is not going to make any difference. I understand that many people find him very attractive and spiritually useful. All very fine and good. Why do I have to find their reputations justified?
I know that many people are famous for their spirituality without being actual jnanis. That's the general rule in fact. Opinions differ on virtually all these folks. There are plenty of people who don't find Ramana at all engaging or convincing. I'm not about to start feeding them a stream of Ramana quotes to convince them otherwise. Why should I care if they don't recognize or value Ramana? To each his own. So I don't comprehend why Ravi cares so much that I recognize or value Aurobindo. And I don't quite understand why you care so much either.
As for my doing "missionary work", no, I don't see that. For one, I'm not a Buddhist, so I have nothing to promote there. I just happen to love a lot of Buddhist teaching and I think they are valuable and have some affinity to Ramana's teachings. And I didn't like hearing Buddhism disparaged by a number of people here.
I don't spend time here quoting Buddhist teachers at length and posting links and exerts from their books or talks. A number of people are pretty active here doing that for various teachers and their teachings, and that's not my way. Until the subject was brought up by others here, I don't think I've ever mentioned Buddhism on this forum before.
As for not knowing Sanskrit, guilty as charged. If that makes my contribution to the discussion here of no value, fine, my bad. No offense taken. If you wish to correct me on any misunderstandings I've developed, you are more than welcome to. I'm sure you and others have much to teach me. But I do hope you are aware that Ramana never instructed anyone, to my knowledge, to take up the study of Sanskrit in order to understand his teachings, or the principles of Advaita. Was he remiss in that?
Broken Yogi,
I have just shared on Sri Aurobindo ,these are not targeted at you or to convince you.I have absolutely no issues with anyone who does not appreciate my view or the views of those who I love and respect.
I understand that each one is different and what appeals to one need not appeal to another.
I thought your post, that was questioned by s, was not meant for me and hence did not respond.
Let me clariy that I respect your view that you do not find Sri Aurobindo appealing and that his writings do not resonate.I fully understand that this is perfectly natural and am perfectly okay with it.
Now coming to the series of post(from the Letters on Yoga),I have merely tried to examine how the atman is viewed differently by different schools and how Sri Aurobindo differed from Traditional Advaita.This is basically to say that Spiritual experience,as far as one can talk about it is indeed varied ,although the essence
is same;like Sri Ramakrishna's parable of the chamaleon on the Tree and no single description(experience as well) of Reality captures it in its entirety.It is not to oppose the views expressed in your reading of Buddhist and Sri Bhagavan's approach.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
Broken Yogi:
i suppose different people prefer different ways to share what they wish to, don't you think so? don't wish to talk on 'behalf' of ravi, but ravi's style has been more or less quoting from different sources, sources he likes and loves to share. as regards the aurobindo thing, to the extent i could make out the drift, though your statements may have triggered it, yet it wasn't aimed at you in particular and was in the spirit of sharing in general. anyhow, i leave it there :-)
on your last paragraph on sanskrt and bhagavAn, let me clarify: to understand what bhagavAn was trying to say, vichAra alone could be enough :-) but if someone wishes to 'intellectually' understand bhagavAn's writings, then a knowledge of tamil, in which bhagavAn primarily wrote, would be necessary. likewise, to say what classical advaitA is or isn't, intellectually speaking, a very good knowledge of sanskrt is indispensable. the 'language' in which they have been written & spoken over the ages is a "must" for any mind-based understanding (to repeat, am not talking of aparoksha anubhutI here). translations are translations, especially with a complex & perfect language as sanskrt, which is subtle enough to yield to any singular translation...
of course, we all appreciate your contributions to this blog :-)))
S,
I'm sure Ravi can explain himself adequately. I just felt he was directing the Aurobindo material at me. If not, my apologies.
As for intellectually understanding Ramana's teachings, I am not clear - do you think the English translations of his writings and talks and things like GVK are inadequate on an intellectual and spiritual level? That somehow his ideas and concepts are lost in translation? I am sure the more thorough one's understanding of Tamil or Sanskrit, the more one could mine from them, but is it really intellectually futile to study these things in English? I don't get that impression, but then again I don't have any way of comparing the two, and no choice in any case.
Do you feel similarly about English translations of the whole of Sanatana Dharma? That they are all intellectually inadequate and those who study them in translation can develop no intellectual understanding of them worth having (putting aside for the moment the direct spiritual understanding)? If so, then I guess Ramanashram ought to stop selling English translations of both Ramana and all these other classics, and simply sell Sanskrit and Tamil dictionaries and language courses.
Or were you perhaps just speaking in the heat of the moment? I'm glad you enjoy my contributions here, but I wasn't aware that the value of English translations and commentaries was so miniscule and essentially without value. Perhaps you could explain?
whenever I hear it, I feel compelled to share it, enjoy
Different sadhakas have got different preferences and I think this is also something to do with prarabdha. Many people, I know,
are feeling that Sri Bhagavan's teachings are dry and tough. They
prefer simple bhakti literature and bhakti stories. Sri Ramakrishna is easier to understand. SRK Maths give distributed importance to discourses on Jnana, bhakti bhajans, festivals, observances of the direct disciples' memorial days etc., SRK Maths, I believe do not give much importance to yoga marga. Sri Aurobindo however, was for a totally Yogic approach. I also feel that Sri Aurobindo's writings are a little tough to read and understand. In fact, long time back, when I attended a meeting, someone [I think it was M.P.Pandit] asked any one in the audience to translate Savitri in Tamizh. I think, to this day, it has not been done. It is because Savitri is difficult to read and understand. And so difficult to translate too particularly in verse.
Ravi,
Okay, I understand better. I suppose I just wasn't sure why you were posting Aurobindo's remarks on Atman and jivatman, since they are not really representative of the "standard model" of sanatana dharma or even Advaita that I was referring to. And I guess for that reason I don't find them to resonate with me very well.
In general, what I've read of Aurobindo on the Self and non-dualism doesn't ring many bells for me, and he doesn't strike me as an authoritative or reliable source, unless of course one is a student of his. And my suspicion is that this is because Aurobindo himself had not really realized any of these matters very deeply. But on that count I am just making a personal observation that carries little weight for anyone but myself.
In contrast, Ramakrishna's views do strike me well and generally seem resonant with both Ramana and traditional Sanatana Dharma, and even when they are not entirely so, they still seem full of wisdom and great loving spirit. Of course I began reading Ramakrishna when I was fourteen, and fell deeply in love with him. That never occurred for me in relation to Aurobindo, not even remotely.
Maybe I should just clarify that for me, even though we talk about these matters on an intellectual plane, what I say is really all based on my own emotional experience and relationship to the spiritual feelings I have about all these things. Even when I talk about Buddhism or high Advaitic concepts I am really just speaking from my own emotion and feeling-sense of these matters. I respond to them because I love them, and figure out why or how later on.
I'm aware that being a bit obsessive about these matters is sort of self-indulgent and perhaps a distraction. My way of dealing with that is kind of like my advice to anon about sex. My view is that if one simply loves the mind's thoughts and obsessions, that will help bring one into reach of the truth, because love purifies the mind regardless of the objects of one's love. So just as I suggest to anon that he love having sex rather than feel guilty about it, I try to purify my own mental indulgences by loving to talk about these kinds of spiritual topics. I know it's a pointless obsession of sorts, but if done in love it still manages to purify the mind and relieve me of my attachments.
At least that's how I justify myself!
ELLAM ONRE [ALL IS ONE] BY VAYAI.
SUBRAMANIA IYER.
One day, Sri Bhagavan told me, copy the small book Ellam Ondre, in my note book for my reading.
I [Annamalai Swami]: I have got a lot of work and I find no time. If someone could write it for me, it is good.
Sri B: Oho! Moksham cannot be bought from outside. If you write, it will get registered into your
heart, and that is why I told you.
Writing it once, is equal to reading it ten times. Write it yourself. Let it take even one
month.
Then I started writing Ellam Onre in my notebook. This has got six chapters. Even the chapter headings were written by Sri Bhagavan. Sri Bhagavan wrote these headings in my notebook in His own hand. Slowly, I completed copying. Sri Bhagavan verified my copying and even corrected a few mistakes.
[This book is now published by the Asramam, both in English and Tamizh]
Once I [Annamalai Swami] told Sri
Bhagavan: "For people who are walking
even on the right path, there are many difficulties.
Sri Bhagavan said: All the difficulties for a true bhkata are only for his good. It is like washerman hitting the cloth on the stone. His purpose is to clean the cloth. So also it happens for a bhakta. When to clean the cloth, if there could be so many difficulties, how much more difficulties should be there for cleaning up the mind. One should be patient.
[SRI RAMANA NINAIVUGAL - Tamzih book, diary notes, by Annamlalai Swami.]
There is one Tamizh verse on this washerman hitting the soiled cloth on the stone to make it clean.
R.Subramanian,
Wonderful posts.
"Writing it once, is equal to reading it ten times. Write it yourself."
In almost all his letters that I have preserved as a treasure,Sri Annamalai swami used to emphasise-'Deham nAnalla,EnnangaL nAnalla,AtmAvE nAn,adhuvE ellAm(I am not the Body,I am not the Thoughs,Atma am I that is the All)and advise doing japa and writing it.Just for once I wrote back a mail wherein I had written these lines over and over again.Swami was very happy to see that mail and expressed joy.
Swami was so accessible and unassuming and a good friend!
Namaskar.
One day, Sri Bhagavan and I [Annamalai Swami] were walking on the Hill. I asked Him: Bhagavan!
At all times, I want to be alone.
Without any efforts, I should get some food. I should ever be meditating with my eyes closed. These thoughts are coming to me often. Are they good?
Sri B: If you think like these, for these purposes you should take one more birth. What if, if you are at any place? Keep the mind
ever in the Self. There is nothing like lonely place or crowded place. If you are with the mind, any place is a crowded place only. There is no need to close the eyes for meditation. It is enough if you close the eye of the mind. There is no world outside than in what is in your mind. If one wants to go on the righteous path, he will not do such
plans. Why? Because God -- before sending us to this world,
had made all plans for you.
[Sri Ramana NinaivugaL, Annamalai Swami]
salutations to all:
Broken Yogi:
my humble opinions...
["...do you think the English translations of his writings and talks and things like GVK are inadequate on an intellectual and spiritual level?..."]
- intellectual level: yes; spiritual level: may/ may not be
["...is it really intellectually futile to study these things in English?..."]
- i didn't say 'intellectually futile'; i said 'inadequate & hence insufficient for sustaining an intellectually reasonable argument...
["...Do you feel similarly about English translations of the whole of Sanatana Dharma?..."]
- yes.
["...That they are all intellectually inadequate and those who study them in translation can develop no intellectual understanding of them worth having (putting aside for the moment the direct spiritual understanding)?..."]
- (have already answered this above)
["...Or were you perhaps just speaking in the heat of the moment?..."]
- not at all :-)
["...but I wasn't aware that the value of English translations and commentaries was so miniscule and essentially without value. Perhaps you could explain?..."]
- never said 'without value' (these are your words) and you are smart enough to know the difference between 'futile' and 'deficient' :-)
what ramaNAsramam should/shouldn't do is not my jurisdiction :-) to repeat one last time - if one reads a translation strictly for the purposes of sAdhanA (for onseself), then a reliable translation could be quite fine; on the other hand, if one desires to get an intellectual grasp of the underlying philosophy (advaitA/ dvaitA etc.) for reasons such as convincing others or inferring hypotheses or for logical extensions or identify errors or formulate conjectures etc., then translations wouldn't be efficient and a dedicated study of the source-texts in their original language is necessary & imperative...
Broken Yogi,
"My view is that if one simply loves the mind's thoughts and obsessions, that will help bring one into reach of the truth, because love purifies the mind regardless of the objects of one's love."
Are you using the words 'Like' and 'Love' as meaning the same?What is the quality of Love?Would like to hear from you.
Namaskar.
Dear everyone,
No translation in English or in any
other language different from the original language, can at best do some justice only. But there is no other go. If a man does not know Sanskrit, how can he read Yoga Vaisishta? only in English or in some other language. Translations should be taken as near-original replicas. That is all. But for that matter, one cannot learn all languages of the world to learn their original scriptures. Even the Bible was originally written in Hebrew. Even the English language is a poor replica. So also Tamizh Bible and so on. No doubt one cannot fully comprehend the bhavam of the original in a translation. But what to do?
If one reads Guru Vachaka Kovai and Padamalai in original, one would understand, how difficult are the verses there are. Even a Tamizhian finds it difficult to understand. So also ULLadu Narpadu. So one should not totally keep away the translations, saying that they are intellectual.
The translatability of one language to another is quite tough. Take Naan Yaar. What is Naan Yaar? Literally it means I Who? But in English it has to come out only as Who am I? In Tamizh, in certain places, verbs are hidden and should be understood in English with inclusion of verb. Thaan again is translated as the Self or I-I. Both the translations do not justice to Thaan.
A year ago, there was an article on Translatabilty of Taamizh, in Mountain Path. I want members of the blog to read it.
A friend of mine spent three years to learn Russian to read War and Peace in original. Everyone cannot make such strenuous efforts for a single book. How to read Mankuthana Kagga in Kannada by DV Gundappa. It is an excellent work on philosophy. But I could read it only in English.
BARKING OF THE DOGS:
Sri Bhagavan showed disapproval when devotees brought complaints to Him. Even mild complaints would provoke a critical rebuke. Once a visitor came to Sri Bhagavan early one morning and remarked, "Throughout the night, a dog was barking. It was barking so much noise, I was unable to meditate.
Sri Bhagavan responded immediately by saying, "No dog barked. It was your mind that barked," implying that external disturbances would not affect the mind, if attention is not given to it.
[SRI BHAGAVAN, THE FRIEND OF ALL]
DOG BARKING:
That reminds me of an old zen story:
Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, "The flag moves." The other said, "The wind moves." They argued back and forth but could not agree. Hui-neng, the sixth Patriarch, said: "Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves." The two monks were struck with awe.
--------
But that's not the end of the story. I read another version of it. It continues as follows (and I like this version more):
In the cloister there lived an old nun. She came and said: "You fools, neither the wind nor the mind moves - it is a KOAN!"
Regarding the post that even sufferings for virtuous people, is only to purify their minds further,
[Annamalai Swami diaries], I could not locate the Tamizh verse still.
But David Godman has given its meaning, under verse 618 of Guru Vachaka Kovai and also in Living
by the Words of Bhagavan, page 238:
Sri Bhagavan: It is good if suffering comes to devotees. The dhobi [washerman], when washing clothes, beats them hard against a rock. But he does so only to remove the dirt from the clothes. [and not to tear off the clothes]. Similarly, all sufferings are given for the sole purpose of purifying the mind of devotees. If we are patient, happiness, will follow.
Peter,
Yes,it is a wonderful song and the pictures of Sri Ramakrishna,Holy Mother Sri SArada devi,and Swamiji are always a treat.
Ajoy chakraborthy is a a good HindustAni musician,but in this particular song he seems to be a little off the mark-it drags a bit as he sings it slow.You may enjoy this clip from an old bengali film on sri Ramakrishna,where Naren meets Sri Ramakrishna at Dakshinewar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEejXz28lo8&feature=related
You will also enjoy watching this other clip where Sri Ramakrishna sends Naren to Mother KAli.After the death of his father,Naren finds himself in difficult circumstances.He approaches sri Ramakrishna to pray to Mother kALi for a way out of dire poverty.Sri Ramakrishna tells Naren -"You go and ask Mother;Whatever you ask Mother will grant ".Naren goes to the divine Mother and beholding her forgets to ask what he came there for!He returns to the master's room and realizes that he had forgotten to ask what he wanted!The Master sends him back to kAli and naren prays that she grant him viveka,vairagya,Bhakti and jnana.
The Master asks Naren whether he asked the boon he wanted.Naren says he felt ashamed to ask anything else other than Viveka,vairAgya,bhakti and jnAna.The Master is immensely pleased with his beloved disciple.
A wonderful scene capturing for us the innocence and childlike nature of the Master,how one could communicate with god as someone so dear and near and accessible as one's own mother.please watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCD7odV6_3w&feature=related
Namaskar.
Ravi,
I use the word "love" in the sense that Ramana taught "the Self is love" or when Nisargadatta said that the only real thing in this world is the love we have, even if the things we love are not real. Also, in the sense that Jesus taught that "God is love" and that our real sadhana is to love unconditionally. Love is really unconditional regardless of what we like or are attached to. When we love something or someone, we are consciously bringing this unconditional love into our lives, and this is the only thing which actually changes or awakens us. This is the "fruit" of self-enquiry, in other words, and otherwise there is no real value to it. Finding the source of the mind, which is the real purpose of self-enquiry, means finding unconditional love. That is how the mind is purified.
S,
Your humble opinion has been made clear. I will refrain from engaging philosophical arguments about Advaita with you. And if you see me making such arguments here, you may either ignore them, or correct them, as you see fit. And I would expect that if you wish to make such arguments yourself, that you would not use the English language, as that would involve an inadequate translation. Seem fair?
"As for not criticizing jnanis, does that mean if I call myself a jnani, no one here will ever be able to criticize me?"
I've examined my own experience, and decided both (criticizing jnanis, and pretending to be one) are not worth the karmic risk. Ever heard of Naraka? lol. There are good wikipedia articles on both the Hindu and Buddhist versions. Since you like Buddhism, I should say the Buddhist versions are scarier. Therefore, I've decided criticizing jnanis is not worth the risk. Much less, pretending to be one.
Scott,
The problem with "not criticizing jnanis" is that we first have to identify and recognize who are the jnanis, and who are not, and refrain from criticizing the jnanis, while leaving the others open to criticism.
But many people who claim to be jnanis, or have followers or admirers who claim that this or that fellow is a jnani, are not actually jnanis, or at least have many people who think otherwise. What to do then?
I suppose one could take the view of not criticizing anyone. Perhaps that's even the best path. I don't believe in going around targeting spiritual teachers for criticism. But I do have my personal responses to this or that teacher, my gut intuition as to who is likely a jnani and who isn't. I can't argue with my own intuitions and feelings. So when there's an absence of that recognition, as there is with me and Aurobindo, it's not like I'm going to go out and actively criticize him, but I'm not going to fake it either and pretend that I find such people's teachings to be representative of genuine jnana.
There's enough good and widely agreed upon jnanis and genuine teachings out there not to have to put up false fronts like that. There's also I'm sure many "secret jnanis" who never appear as such to the world at large.
In my view, it's fine to criticize anyone, jnani or otherwise, as long as one does so with genuine respect and concern and an absence of self-righteousness. Ramana didn't mind being criticized. In fact, when that fellow wrote a book criticizing him, he said it should be handed out at the gates to the ashram. A real jnani has no fear of criticism, and welcomes it. Nisargadatta had no problem talking with such people or engaging them in open conflict and argument. He felt it was actually a good thing to bring out one's criticisms and confront them. That's a sign of a real jnani to me.
Those who can't take the heat should get out of the kitchen, as far as I'm concerned. Spiritual practice is a fire, not a rest home. A real jnani is at perfect ease in that fire, because he has already burned up.
Yeah, that makes sense, a true jnani having perfect equanimity, and their ego having died, of course doesn't mind criticism. Makes sense. On the other hand, once I know someone has no ego, their ego has died, and are totally the Supreme with nothing left over. There are quotes I've read in both the Ribhu Gita, and Muruganar, and I think in other scriptures. One I've read goes something like, "The Guru is Shiva. If Shiva is angered, the Guru will protect you. If the Guru is angered, no one will help you". For instance, being around Nome, I experience the pure Consciousness of the Self in his presence. I see that all his actions come from that. In my experienced such a true jnani has to be approached in total humility. It's why people prostrate, and wash the feet of jnanis. That doesn't happen here at SAT Temple. But it is why, we prostrate before the fire of the Self. Because it is our salvation from the dangerous cycle of rebirth. Dangerous, in that my bad karmas, many of which I may not know are there. Not to mention, a sin, or crime against a Guru, could have way more severe consequences. The fire experienced around jnanis, humbles intensely. Yes, the jnani may not mind criticism. But onceI know a jnani is purely the fire a jnana, any criticism lobbed in their direction, is a criticism of the fire of jnana, because there is nothing else there.
Anyway debates, do they serve any purpose, besides the victory of one point of view or the other? I can understand not experientally understanding, and asking questions. I do all the time in Satsang. Before being in contact with Nome, I a lot more often engaged, foolishly I think in debates. Wanting to understand makes sense. If someone is not realized, or one thinks they aren't, rather than criticism, it seems better just not to waste my time with them, unless I like them for some other reason. If they are, and know the Self prefectly, what point would their be in criticism. So either way, criticism seems pointless. If someone is physically abusing someone else. And one is in the position to stop it. That's another issue altogether.
Broken Yogi,
"I use the word "love" in the sense that Ramana taught "the Self is love" or when Nisargadatta said that the only real thing in this world is the love we have, even if the things we love are not real."
Love is when there is no self assertion,no self justification.Love is not afraid of gain and loss.Love simply is.
If I use the terminology of Sri Aurobindo-the 'Love' that you identify with when you said-"My view is that if one simply loves the mind's thoughts and obsessions"-is 'vital' and is a cocktail ,with a heavy dose of 'Ego'.
Please do not think that I am trying to thrust Sri Aurobindo on you ,but this is where his approach will help a lot.If you have read his works and understood,he talks about 'psychic being'(in his terminology)-It is this psychic being in us that is capable of expressing Love-and is the source of Bhakti.
It is not as if this 'Vital' in us has to be jettisoned.It is the 'Vital' being in us that is capable of Great energy and a powerful means of Expressing ourselves in words and action.(Swami Vivekananda,for example)Yet,until the 'psychic Being'(chaitya purusha) is allowed the full dominance of the 'Vital'(prAnamaya Purusha) in us,the Vital will persist in its mixture and vain justifications.In other words ,the Vital is good as an instrument,but bad as a Master.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from 'The Letters on Yoga' by Sri Aurobindo.Sri Aurobindo was practically living a secluded Life in the Ashram.Seekers looking for guidance used to write to him,expressing their doubts and difficulties and the Master used to patiently reply in his own hand,often burning the midnight oil to do,as the sheer volume of correspondence was huge.This correspondence is published as 'Letters on Yoga' in 3 Volumes and is an invaluable guide for all seekers.No other Guru had given such a detailed guidance in 'writing'.
Here is an excerpt:
"MEN do not know themselves and have not learned
to distinguish the different parts of their being; for these are
usually lumped together by them as mind, because it is through
a mentalised perception and understanding that they know or feel
them; therefore they do not understand their own states and actions,
or, if at all, then only on the surface. It is part of the foundation
of yoga to become conscious of the great complexity of
our nature, see the different forces that move it and get over it a
control of directing knowledge. We are composed of many parts
each of which contributes something to the total movement of
our consciousness, our thought, will, sensation, feeling, action,
but we do not see the origination or the course of these impulsions;
we are aware only of their confused and pell-mell results
on the surface upon which we can at best impose nothing better
than a precarious shifting order.
The remedy can only come from the parts of the being that
are already turned towards the Light. To call in the light of the
Divine Consciousness from above, to bring the psychic being
to the front and kindle a flame of aspiration which will awaken
spiritually the outer mind and set on fire the vital being, is the
way out."
The way of 'Yoga' is to understand Prakriti in order to master it.This is sri Aurobindo's uniqueness.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from Sri Aurobindo's'The Letters on Yoga':
The contribution of the psychic being to the sadhana is: (1) love
and bhakti, a love not vital, demanding and egoistic but unconditioned
and without claims, self-existent; (2) the contact or the
presence of the Mother within; (3) the unerring guidance from
within; (4) a quieting and purification of the mind, vital and
physical consciousness by their subjection to the psychic influence
and guidance; (5) the opening up of all this lower consciousness
to the higher spiritual consciousness above for its
descent into a nature prepared to receive it with a complete
receptivity and right attitude – for the psychic brings in everything
right thought, right perception, right feeling, right attitude.
Namaskar.
Ravi,
Maybe I didn't make myself clear (hardly the first time).
Love, because it is our true Self, is always present. Our problem with love is that we associate it with objects and actions. What we call "egoic love" is the same love that is the Self, only limited by association with objects and actions. What is important for us to remember is that it is not the love that is egoic, it is the attachment, the limit we place on love that is egoic.
The trouble is not, therefore, that we love things too much, and should therefore detach from them. The problem is that we don't love enough, and allow our love to be qualified and limited by the objects and actions we associate with love. If instead of limiting our love, we let it be unlimited, it will eventually purify us even of our attachments, the objects our mind zeroes in on.
This is why I say that if we find ourselves "stuck" on some desire or other, such as sex or thinking or whatever it is, the solution is not to detach from the object, but to love more. In fact, the best way to help us detach from these objects we are attached to is to love them. Our love, even though associated with an object, is more powerful than our attachment to the object. So if we give free reign to our love, it will even free us from the object.
This is the principle of how bhakti can bring about enlightenment, is it not? We love God in the form of an object of some kind, and for the moment that seems to only strengthen our attachment to that object, but the force of love is so much more powerful than our attachment that it ends up freeing us even from the object of our worship, leaving us only in the Self, which is pure love.
If it works for God-as-object, why not for every other object of our attention?
The basic idea is simply to increase our love, regardless of whether it is for "things" or for the pure Self. We are attached as it is to many things, so the pure Self is not really something we can easily direct ourselves towards. But we can love, even if that love is associated with an object still.
Self-enquiry awakens love, does it not? Even when we are attached, if we ask "To whom is this attachment arising?" that awakens love in us. That is the Self shining from our hearts. But because the mind is still unresolved, it experiences this love in relation to objects, to the world, etc. The path then is not to shut down this love, but to shine with it, and let it help us move past objects. We don't reject objects, we love them instead. We love our own minds, our friends, our attachments one and all. Eventually by loving all we are freed from all attachments. That is the way of devotion, and it is also the way of self-enquiry, which awakens devotion. They are not really separate. They work in tandem.
So I'm just saying if we have some negative attachment or obsession that disturbs us, the solution to that is to bring love into the picture, even if at first it might be in the form of energetically loving what we are attached to. This is better than fighting our attachments or trying to cut them off or detach from them.
Now, if you can simply be free directly through self-enquiry, this isn't really necessary, but if one isn't becoming more full of love through self-enquiry, one is perhaps deluding oneself by merely becoming detached and remote from the body and life.
The idea is that we follow our love, and value and recognize love as the only genuine sign of the Self in our lives in this world, and not mistakenly detach ourselves from love in the effort to realize the Self. The Self is right there in love. We need look no further.
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on the Mental,vital and Physical purushas.It is not as if Sri aurobindo has invented these-These are well recognized and wonderfully enunciated in the upanishads.The Taitriya upanishad and its brahmananda valli,clearly enunciates the Panchamaya purushas-annamaya,prAnamaya,manOmaya,vijnAnamaya(supermind in Sri Aurobindo's terminology)and Anandamaya purushas.
Thanks(!!!)to the modern fascination for 'advaita'-all are swept away as 'Mind'(!!!?)and only 'Self' exists(confined to oneself!).
Enough of my digression,now back to the Master:
"The vital as the desire-soul and desire-nature controls the
consciousness to a large extent in most men, because men are
governed by desire. But even in the surface human nature the
300 Letters on Yoga
proper ruler of the consciousness is the mental being,
manomayaÕ puruØaÕ prÀÍa-ÙarÈra-netÀ of the Upanishad. The
psychic influences the consciousness from behind, but one has
to go out of the ordinary consciousness into the inmost being to
find it and make it the ruler of the consciousness as it should be.
To do that is one of the principal aims of the yoga. The vital
should be an instrument of the consciousness, not its ruler.
The vital being is not the I – the ego is mental, vital, physical.
Ego implies the identification of our existence with outer
self, the ignorance of our true self above and our psychic being
within us.
In a certain sense the various Purushas or beings in us,
psychic, mental, vital, physical are projections of the Atman, but
that gets its full truth only when we get into our inner being and
know the inner truth of ourselves. On the surface, in the Ignorance,
it is the mental, vital, physical Prakriti that acts and the
Purusha is disfigured, as it were, in the action of the Prakriti. It
is not our true mental being, our true vital being, our true physical
being even that we are aware of; these remain behind, veiled
and silent. It is the mental, vital, physical ego that we take for
our being until we get knowledge."
Namaskar.
Ravi,
Since you are so in love with Ramakrishna, you perhaps already know this story, and could probably find it and quote it more accurately than I can.
A woman came to Ramakrishna who was in great despair of finding God. Much had gone wrong in her life, she was trying to become religious, but she simply could not relate to God through any ordinary means. Everything was dead to her, all the usual religious practices and chants and so on. She'd tried them all and nothing worked. So she came to Ramakrishna for help in finding God. He was very compassionate towards her plight, and asked her many detailed questions about her efforts. To each question, she replied in the negative, that she could not find God in this or that.
Finally, Ramakrishna asked her "Is there anyone in your life that you love?" She looked a little startled, and replied, "Well, I love my son". And Ramakrishna immediately said, "There is God."
You see, this is how it is for us for the most part. God is hard to find, so we have to turn to whatever love we can find in our lives. Increasing the amount of love we feel increases the Presence of God in our lives. It doesn't matter what the object is. The people we love don't have to be saints, the things we love don't have to be holy. Love makes them so. If we are attached to unholy things, loving them will free us, but detaching from them will not. Even if we detach, we still have to love, or it is useless.
So I have many attachments, including an attachment to mind itself. How will I be free of that? By loving the mind. Self-enquiry helps with that, by putting me in closer touch with the Self that is love. Detaching from the mind won't do the trick, unless I love just the same. There is no liberation from mind without unlimited love. That does all the heavy lifting. I cannot free myself from my attachments, but if I love them, then that love can do the work for me. How else can I be free of mind?
Friends,
Here is another Excerpt from the letters on Yoga, that has a practical usefulness:
"There is behind all the vital nature in man his true vital being
concealed and immobile which is quite different from the surface
vital nature. The surface vital is narrow, ignorant, limited,
full of obscure desires, passions, cravings, revolts, pleasures
and pains, transient joys and griefs, exultations and depressions.
The true vital being, on the contrary, is wide, vast, calm, strong,
without limitations, firm and immovable, capable of all power,
all knowledge, all Ananda. It is moreover without ego, for
it knows itself to be a projection and instrument of the Divine:
it is the divine Warrior, pure and perfect; in it is an instrumental
Force for all divine realisations. It is the true vital being that
has become awake and come in front within you. In the same
way there is too a true mental being, a true physical being. When
these are manifest, then you are aware of a double existence in
you: that behind is always calm and strong, that on the surface
alone is troubled and obscure. But if the true being behind remains
stable and you live in it, then the trouble and obscurity
remain only on the surface; in this condition the exterior parts
can be dealt with more potently and they also made free and
perfect."
Namaskar.
Scott,
I agree that we can't convince anyone through argument and discussion, but that isn't the only reason to engage these things. It is a very good way of clarifying one's own observations and insights. Subjecting one's observations to the criticism of others can be very valuable and provide reflective insight that we might not have come up with on our own. We may not even agree with the criticism, but the light it shines on us can help to illuminate our vision anyway. It increases the general effort to inspect ourselves and understand what we are doing. People who criticize me do me an invaluable service, even if it hurts. I would be much poorer without it.
Broken Yogi,
Yes,that was Balaram bose's daughter who said that she loved her 2 year old nephew the Best and was advised by the Master to view him as God;she realized God as Love in the form of Baby Krishna.
When it comes to one's thoughts and impulses-is it possible to do likewise?Do they invoke 'Love' in us in the same manner as the Baby in the above story or we are trying to feign the 'Response' in the above story and trying to 'apply' it to our thoughts and actions and end up justifying them!
The 'Psychic being' that sri Aurobindo talks about is the same as what Sri Ramakrishna has helped to identify for that blessed girl.This is Sri Ramakrishna's uniqueness that what others may express over so many pages and still may not do so adequately,this Great Master can put it in a way that a 5 year old can understand!
Namaskar.
Broken yogi,
Where Love is there Desire cannot be;There justications and 'reactions' cannot be.This is not to say that Love does not exist when these things are there-It is a flame ,perhaps a spark stifled with smoke that will soon douse it.Does not one know this?Please examine.To kindle this spark,one needs to fan it and blow away the smokescreen of thoughts and desires.This 'Blowing away' can only be done by a resolute will and conscious rejection.
So,Rejection,aspiration and surrender-all these have to go together and this is what all masters have said.
Namaskar.
Broken yogi and friends, "unconditioned love isn’t a matter of liking but of not hating, of not condemning, of accepting, of being patient, of being noncritical towards the way it is, whether it is anger or the inner tyrant, the immature emotions, or the foolish, silly thoughts you have. Unconditioned love makes no conditions; it is the way it is, and all conditions are impermanent"
glow
Ravi,
I don't think all masters have ever agreed on anything.
Whatever works for you. If you wish to reject, go ahead. If you wish to embrace, go ahead. Love cannot reject, however, because it does not see anything separate from itself to reject. It does not destroy or reject anything, other than the illusion of separation.
Love is always there. It doesn't go away when desire is present, it is merely masked or hidden to some degree. But you cannot blow away thoughts by your own will. Only love can do that. The more you fan the flames, the stronger they get. The more you reject your thoughts, the more intense they grow. One has to go to the root, which where self-enquiry and devotion meet, in Hridayam. Only love reaches Hridayam. Only love survives Hridayam. Desires and thoughts are blown away by the winds of grace, not by your own will power. Thank God for that, or none of us would have any hope.
Ravi,
It's not really a matter of justifying anything. I agree that we must accept things as they are, which means we cannot reject anything, even our desires and tribulations. Love is not a solution to a problem, it ends the very notion that we have a problem. It doesn't mean we can only love baby Krishna. Our love for the most mundane of our attachments also contains the seeds of our liberation. We need not justify our love no matter what the object. We must simply be true to our love and not waver. That is the hard part. It's so easy to reject and condemn. There are often "good" reasons to do that. Love breaks all those rules and taboos. But as I say, it also purifies and undoes the very attachments and obsessions we have come to accept in ourselves. We are delivered from them by the grace of love. There is no other deliverance than by that grace. You will see.
Broken Yogi,
I have nothing more to add to what I have said,except this little bit-Each one has a certain way of Rejecting what is false and inimical-but rejection has to happen.
If things are already clear,then all is well.
Namaskar.
Dear Broken Yogi,
Yes. Love is another name of God.
Love is the Self. Saint Tirumoolar
says Anbe Sivam, i.e Only Love is Sivam or Consciousness or the Self.
Sri Bhagavan describes this beautifully in Verse 2 of Sri
Arunachala Padigam:
O Aruna Hill, the embodied Love, loveless I was. Never had I pined for your and melted within as wax in fire. And yet you chose to claim me as your own. If now, if you fail to fill me with love, and if you let me perish in this loveless state, would it be fair? O Bliss that springs from Love, Nectar welling up in lovers' hearts. O joy which is my only refuge, your will is mine. Here, in this surrender, is pure joy, Lord of my life.
Love springs forth Bliss.
Surrender is total love to God.
Hence Love to God brings forth Bliss.
Hi folks,
Interesting the heat on Sri Aurobindo.
Leave his writings aside, for me, his exalted spiritual stature is emphasized by the simple fact that an extraordinary personality such as Sri Ganapati Muni regarded him as a Master.
Have read enough from Sri Ganapati Muni’s voluminous writings to know what a tremendous spiritual powerhouse he was; I believe that his knowledge of the scriptures, his tapas, even his Sanskrit, are unparalleled for a 1000 years before him; truly he was an “amsa” of Lord Ganapati. Such was the “fire” emanating from him, that by all accounts, only Sri Bhagavan could really handle him. We still know and understand only a fraction of Ganapati Muni’s greatness, and Bhagavan’s devotees are usually dismissive of him because he went away, physically, from Bhagavan’s presence. But we know how much Bhagavan loved him and the special bond they always had. Though Bhagavan was always his Guru, Ganapati Muni spent some later years with Sri Aurobindo, whose teachings may have suited his Sakta Upasna then.
And if Ganapati Muni bowed down to Sri Aurobindo, my head shall certainly remain plastered to the ground before Sri Aurobindo.
Best wishes
Dear Broken Yogi,
A true Jnani is experienced by our
presence in his company. It brings about peace, peace that passeth understanding. In Sri Ramana Gita,
Sri Bhagavan describes this as only
feature a devotee or a critic can
experience when he comes to a true Jnani. If a Jnani brings about no peace, but only teachings which are full of sound and fury signifying nothing, then he is not a true Jnani. Sri Bhagavan spoke very little. But in His Presence, everyone felt immense peace. And questions that were to be asked,
got evaporated.
Sri Aurobindo may be a Yogi of Himalayan proportions, but he always felt and said that yogic path and teachings are the most supreme ones. He told Balaramiah who was going both to Pondicherry and Tiruvannamalai, to come permanently to Pondicherry, since Ramana could confer him only 'partial realization'!
So was Ganapati Muni. He went to Pondicherry, may be a couple of times. So Sri Aurobinbdo asked Ganapati Muni to come and stay in Pondicherry where environs would be more suitable for sadhana. But Ganapati Muni chose to stay with Sri Bhagavan.
Of course, there were some like
Kapali Sastri who had faith in
Sri Aurobindo's teachings but
had the highest regard to Sri Bhagavan too.
Ravi,
I have no problem with the notion of rejecting various approaches and ideas. That was not what I meant. Love does not make one an idiot. I am talking about the way to deal with those things we are attached to. Obviously love rejects the idea of rejecting these things, but that is not a way of rejecting anything. Love purifies, making rejection unnecessary. We find ourselves no longer addicted to our attachments, but in love with them, which means freedom.
Take marriage, for example. You suggested to anon that he get married, but you said nothing about falling in love. Marriage just for the sake of social convenience, for limiting sexual activity to one person, will not purify his sexual obsession. Only loving his wife will do that. If he really loves her, and loves her through sex, it will be transformed and purified into something beautiful. So that is what needs to be cultivated - love. Marriage is natural for those who love. Other sexual objects fall away, and one loves one's spouse. Eventually that love transcends even sex. But sex may continue anyway, as an act of love. This is how householders experience God in the midst of their lives of ordinary desire and pleasure. They learn how to love. Otherwise, it's just a waste of time.
Once I was talking with an old friend about the subtle ways in which jnanis make criticisms of other teachers. It's somewhat unusual, and almost never direct, but it does happen. My friend was a devotee of Ananadamayi Ma - in fact, he was the first westerner ever given dikshit by her. That alone was quite and extraordinary story.
For some reason Aurobindo's name came up, I don't know who mentioned it, and I confessed again that I never felt drawn to him or considered him a real jnani, I just didn't know quite why. He then told me a story about a visit Anandamayi Ma made to Pondicherry. Her devotees had been trying to get her to meet with Aurobindo for a long time, because he was so renowned and respected, but she had never agreed to it.
She was in the habit of spending a certain period each year travelling about India, sometimes visiting ashrams and holy places. So on one trip she finally agreed to visit Pondicherry. She was scheduled to stay there for several days, and lengthy preparations were made at both ends. Aurobindo and the Mother happily met her and sat down for tea or something, very excited about the whole event. Before long, however, Anandamayi Ma simply got up and left. She didn't just leave the table, she began walking right out of the ashram. Her whole retinue had to pack up immediately and go with her. She gave no reason for her departure. But everyone around her knew how to interpret this: as a sign of her displeasure with the spiritual disposition of her hosts. This is how she had always handled such situations. She never said anything, she just started walking.
My friend said that while Anandamayi Ma never said another word about Aurobindo, and his name was never brought up around her, the sense of a very severe criticism was strongly felt by everyone, including Aurobindo himself and the whole of his ashram. So that is one way that jnanis criticize other teachers. Certain signs and gestures are made which convey a general impression and make it clear to those who care about such things.
Obviously not everyone felt that way about Aurobindo, so one has to go with one's own feelings about this, as always.
From Sri Balarama Reddiyar [1908-1995] reminiscences:
I went for the first time to see Sri
Bhagavan in March 1933. It was morning and was breakfast time. The
devotees lovingly took me to the breakfast also! It was arranged that I should take breakfast sitting on the right side of Sri Bhagavan. This closeness really surprised me. Again at 11 am. I was asked to join others for lunch. Here again, the proximity to Sri Bhagavan made me very happy. Evening around 5 pm., I took leave of Sri Bhagavan to go to Pondicherry.
2. I have been visiting Sri Aurobindo since 1931. He used to give only three darshans every year to the devotees. It was one of those three days. Sri Aurobindo and Mother were sitting on a soft seat, side by side. Everyone used to come in turn and touch their feet. I started reading Sri Aurobindo's works in depth.
3. I met Kapali Sastri in Pondicherry. K had been going to Sri Ramanasramam too. His descriptions of Sri Ramanasramam and Sri Bhagavan slowly captivated my mind. He wanted me to read BVN's book. I also read PB's book later.
4. I visited for the second time in 1935, Sri Ramanasramam. This time what He had said [in His biogoraphy] about changing one's guru gave me some doubt. I asked Him about it. He said: Yes. Surely one can change one's guru, why this doubt now?
5. In Pondicherry Ashram, there was a regular regimen about our daily lives. Each one should do some hard labor, and I had chosen gardening. But in the Asramam, the atmosphere without any regimen and control made me to be in my natural state. Sri Bhagavan's silence, deep silence, made me wonder His personality and presence.
6. In June 1936, I decided about Sri Ramanasramam stay. I was permitted to stay in Palakottu near Yogi Ramiah's cottage.
7. Even though Sri Aurobindo's love towards me was really great, his answer to my question of staying with Sri Bhagavan [through a letter] was in the negative. I
was disappointed. I wrote to him for the second time. As answer, he had said: "Since you had preferred to have only partial realization, I am giving you permission..."
8. After some permanent stay in the Asramam, one day I asked Sri Bhagavan, about Sri Aurobindo's remarks. He replied: If is partial it is not Realization If it is Realization, it is not partial.
9. Sri Bhagavan's above remarks cleared all my doubts. I also understood where the path of Sri Aurobindo and Sri Bhagavan, parted. But I had no doubt about Sri Bhagavan's teachings and all my doubts evaporated....
I bow to Sri Bhagavan, who shines as the effulgence of Atma and who is ever pleasant in His actionless life, and who purifies everyone's life and also the world.
Subramanian,
Yes, a jnani can be recognized by the peace we feel around them. But not everyone is sensitive to that peace, and others feel peace in the presence of charlatans. There are few jnanis universally agreed upon, maybe none. Even Ramana has detractors. So we have to decide for ourselves, and not worry about what others think.
Dear Broken Yogi,
This is what drew me to Sri Bhagavan. Whether it is Sri Aurobindo or JK, Sri Bhagavan never criticized any other teacher. He merely clarified Sri Aurobindo's remarks about 'partial realization' and also JK's 'effortless awareness'
and stopped with that. For Him, even everyone was a Jnani and there was no Ajnani in the world at all, where was the need to criticize other teachers? He was ever available for meeting and He had no three darshans in a year or darshan only to elitist groups, as others had adopted. Once people from Andhra had come to meet Him at 12 midnight. And they were in a hurry to meet Him and He obliged. His teachings were simple and showed only the direct path.
He had no regimen fixed for His devotees for a day. Once, in fact, Muruganar had said: That
to have no samparadayam was His sampradayam!
[sampradayam = rituals and practicess.]
One morning, Krishnawami, Sri Bhagavan's attendant, was picking down the ripe coconuts from the trees, with a stick while Sri Bhagavan was returning from the gosala. Sri Bhagavan asked Krishnawami, what type of stick he was using to pluck the coconuts, whether it had a bamboo bit attached to to the end or an iron point. Krishnaswami remarked that it was only an iron sickle.
Sri Bhagavan asked: "Will not the trees be hurt by the sharp iron?
Would not a stick with bamboo bit at the end serve the purpose?
And Sri Bhagavan did not wait for the reply.
Krishnawami went on plucking the coconuts with the iron sickle each morning. A week later, at the same time as on previous occasion, while Krishnaswami was plucking coconuts from the trees, one of them fell on his forehead and struck his nose very painfully. This news was reported to Sri Bhagavan. While expressing pity and concern for the man, Sri Bhagavan also remarked, 'Now he will know what it is to be hurt, and how much this iron sickle must have hurt the uncomplaining trees.
[BHAGAVAN RAMANA -THE FRIEND OF ALL]
Broken Yogi,
"Take marriage, for example. You suggested to anon that he get married, but you said nothing about falling in love. Marriage just for the sake of social convenience, for limiting sexual activity to one person, will not purify his sexual obsession."
Friend,the person who has the problem is an Indian(if I am not mistaken,it is Krishna)and he will understand what I have posted.Marriage is a commitment and a lot of other aspects are involved than just 'falling in Love'.The family and lieage are important,not for caste reasons but for the sake of lasting companionship.Marriage is not for sexual outlet only.This is a vast subject,and I have to get into the finer aspects of sanAtana Dharma that you may not appreciate.This is all the more imortant for a spiritual aspirant that he needs to be careful in choosing a companion who will be a help and not a hindrance in spiritual life.The Indian System where parents also have a say,as also the Elders,despite apparently dated,is still one of the better ways of getting a partner.We start a new life and the relationship grows with time and where one learns to share and be accommodative to the other.
More later.
Namaskar.
Friends,
Coming to Sri Aurobindo,I am amused to see the comments.I will point out what happened after Sri Ramakrishna's passing away,when Naren as a wandering swami met with Pavahari Baba and wanted to learn raja yoga from him,so that he can keep all physical needs at bay-no need for food and water!
Pavahari Baba insisted on the condition that Naren should accpt him as Guru if he wanted to learn Raja Yoga.Naren agreed and fixed a date,but the night before he had the vision of Sri Ramakrishna standing and looking at him without speaking anything.Naren had to withdraw from what he had planned and cancel the whole thing!
There is such a thing like the Guru Sishya link that is mch more than a marriage Bond.When a master sees the possibility in disciple,he wishes well for the Sishya in that particular line of Yoga and takes care that the disciple does not get into difficulty by hopping to other 'Gurus'.
Most of the people who were devotees of these great ones just had no clue to these aspecs and simply ended up carrying tales.
So,that is all to it.The Anandamayi ma story walking off from Sri Aurobindo seems dubious as Sri Aurobindo was just not available for outsiders and also most of his disciples.Only a few ld friends like MahAkavi BhArati(a seer poet)had access to him.Even Papa Ramdas during his days of 'In quest of God' could not meet Sri Aurobindo,much as he wished to.
Namaskar.
Broken Yogi/Friends,
Your friend is perhaps mistaken in saying that Anandamoyi Ma(I had the good fortune of seeing her at her ashram in Kankal,Haridwar;She was bedridden and I was the only one watching her through a window!)had walked away from a Tea table!!!?
Please visit the following website where Anandamoyi mA describes her visit to The Mother ,Pondicherry.Please visit:
http://www.anandamayi.org/ashram/meera.htm
Namaskar.
Reflections on Talks:
[S.S. Cohen]
"The Heart is formless. Should we
imagine it to have a shape and meditate on it?"
Sri B: "Not. Only the quest 'Who am I?' is necessary. Investigation of 'I' is the point, and not meditation on the Heart-Centre. There is nothing like within and without. Both mean either the same thing or nothing."
"Of course, there is also the practice of meditation on the Heart-Centre. But it is only a practice and not investigation. Only the one who meditates on the Heart can remain aware when the mind ceases to be active and remains still"
It looks as though in the second half of this text, Sri Bhagavan retracts the statement in the first half not to meditate on the Heart Centre. Actually He does not. Both statements are correct in their own contexts. In the first instance, the question envisages the use of imagination to give a form to the formless Heart, which is absurd. After all the Heart is naught but the Self, which is represented in our understanding by the principle 'I'. Would it not be therefore more logical and simpler to catch hold of this principle and inquire into it, rather than create an artificial image of it -- the imageless - and meditate on it? This completely disposes the question in the form it is put.
Now we turn to the positive side of the question, whether meditation on the Heart is possible. Sri Bhagavan declares it to be possible, but not in the form of investigation, as it is done when the 'I' is subject. Meditation on the Heart must be a special meditation, provided the meditator takes the Heart be pure Consciousness and has at least, an intuitive knowledge of what pure Consciousness is. Only that meditation succeeds which has this intuitive knowledge, and is conducted with the greatest alertness, so that the moment thoughts cease, the mind perceives itself in its own home - the Heart itself. This is certainly more difficult to do than to investigate into the source of the 'I', because it is a direct assault on, rather direct contact with, the very source itself. It is no doubt the quickest method, but it exacts the greatest alertness and the most concentrated attention, denoting a greater adhikara [maturity].
Arvind,
Yes,Sri Ganapati Muni is indeed a powerhouse of tapas and his uma sahasram was very much appreciated by Sri Aurobindo.
Namaskar.
REFLECTIONS ON TALKS:
S.S. Cohen:
"That the physical heart is on the left it cannot be denied. But the heart of which I speak is not physical and is only on the right side. It is my experience, no authority is required by me. Still you can find confirmation of it in a Malayali Ayurvedic book and in the Sita Upanishad."
This is an authoritative statement on Sri Bhagavan's own experience, which in its practical aspect is of no help to the meditator. The locus of the Heart, whether to the right or to the left, need not worry us, because when one is in it, that is, in Samadhi, not only the chest but the body and the whole world disappear. When dhyana matures, the Heart automatically reveals itself without any special effort to seek its corresponding place in the physical body.
salutations to all:
Broken Yogi/Ravi/Folks:
ravi: thanks for letting us know what actually was the 'ma-mother' episode! such 'misleading' stories should make it amply clear to all here the importance of 'quoting' from authentic sources, and if the same is not readily available or is based on 'hear-say', better to prefix such disclaimers :-)
broken yogi: hope you will quote a 'reliable source' on whatever you reported on the 'tea-table' episode :-) elsewhere too, despite your very long explanations, you hardly ever mentioned any original quotations from the madhyamaka-kArikA or other principal texts in support of its alleged similarity with bhagavAn's way :-) and as far as your comment goes ["...I would expect that if you wish to make such arguments yourself, that you would not use the English language..."], i mostly avoid arguing anything on matters of what advaita 'siddhAnta' is/ isn't, and even if i ever do, so will i acknowledge it to come from a 'translation' and not make attempts to pass it on with any deceptive sense of 'authority' :-)
of course, the day i talk of siddhAnta as to what i think it is/ isn't, i.e., if at all i do, then though i may express it in english, yet i would have also understood every word of the sanskrt original, which is shared for discussion here or anywhere else :-)))
[btw, after a couple of years, i might perhaps be ok to frame an argument in sanskrt (as you asked me to), but would you be able to understand it (NOM)? - writing on advaitA/ dvaitA in english is fine if & only if it is also accompanied by an understanding in sanskrt; if this is 'not' possible, simple - don't argue, period :-)]
am fortunately not driven nowadays in impulsively desiring the security of having the 'last word' on any topic, will not be saying anything further on this issue! have said whatever i had to say and if you think you are right, then so be it... :-)
On 19.06.1939, an educated lady asked Sri Bhagavan:
"Bhagavan! I should get Shanti [peace]. You should only to help me!
Sri Bhagavan: Shanti is itself is our real nature. How to get it hereafter? For example, if one has got head ache right from his birth,
throughout his lifetime, no one would think of applying medicine for him. Because, headache is natural for him. Similarly, Shanti is also our real nature. In between, all bheda-bhddhi, discriminating intellect comes and spoils our Shanti. In deep sleep, this bheda-buddhi is not there. 'I slept in great bliss' is everyone's opinion. It is also something like this. Standing neck deep in Ganga, if one cries, 'I am thirsty...I am thirsty..' how will it look like? Or if Ganga, cries, 'I am thirsty,' how will it look like? Shanti, Moksham, Sukam are all our natural state.
[Sri Ramana NinaivugaL - Annamalai Swami.]
Friends,
I believe that most of us have not read either Sri Aurobindo or Prajna
Parimita or JK or any other teachings of any single guru in depth. So most of our discussions are peripheral due to our inadequate knowledge.
All arguments and counter-arguments are due to the fact, that A has read one aspect and B has read another aspect and both think that their aspects are the complete reflections of the teachings of that particular guru. Even with Sri Aurobindo, I only quoted what Balaramiah had said and not anything else because I have not read him in depth. My only visit to Pondicherry was after Sri Aurobindo's passing away and I was not impressed very much. I bought a few books to only replace another set of books in the cub-board. So also with JK. In his December meetings in Chennai, the group appeared elitist and JK sat on a dais and spoke and simply left after about 90 minutes. Private meetings were far and few and that too for chosen people only. Again, buying books and stacking them in cupboard in replacement of some other books. This terrible intellectual schizophrenia left me once I had arrived at Sri Bhagavan.
Friends,
The website on Sri Anandamayi ma has an interesting account of ma meeting papa Ramdas.
Papa tells this interesting anecdote:
""Ramdas is a little child. But Mataji says Ramdas is obstinate sometimes. That is a fact. When Ramdas met Ma Anandamayi some years back, we talked together for some time. She addressed Ramdas as ‘Pitaji'. Ramdas objected to it and said he was only a child and she was his mother. She said, ‘No'. Then Ramdas told her that he was actually a child, because he had no teeth, and that she was his mother because she had teeth! Ma Anandamayi laughed and had nothing more to say. "
What a child papa is!
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
subramanian/ravi: as always, request you to give a complete translation :-)
(a verse from a beautiful padhigam (appar svAmigaL) i happened to recite today (all padhigams are beautiful)) :-)
படைக்கல மாகவுன் னாமத்
தெழுத்தஞ்சென் நாவிற்கொண்டேன்
இடைக்கல மல்லேன் எழுபிறப்
பும்முனக் காட்செய்கின்றேன்
துடைக்கினும் போகேன் தொழுது
வணங்கித்தூ நீறணிந்துன்
அடைக்கலங் கண்டாய் அணிதில்லைச்
சிற்றம் பலத்தரனே
[padaikkalamAga un nAmatthu ezhutthanju en nAvilkondEn
idaikkalam allEn ezhupiRappum unakku AtseikinREn
thudaikkinum pOgEn thozhudhu vaNangi thU nIRaNindhu
un adaikkalam kaNdAi aNithillai chiRRambalatthu aranE]
Subramanian,
Please note that I have not actually criticized Sri Aurobindo. I have no substantial criticism of him or his teachings. I've merely confessed that I don't feel anything about him or his teachings, and don't see him as a jnani. That is all. That is not a criticism of him.
As for Ramana, yes, it's nice that he doesn't criticize other teachers, but to be honest that's not at all a factor in my attraction to him. I am attracted to him because I feel the power and presence of jnana alive in him. That is all, really. It's great that he's also such an admirable human being, but that's just an extra bonus, and perhaps a confirmation of his jnana, not my reason for being drawn to him.
Ravi,
Yes, I understand the traditional Indian approach to marriage, and there are certainly benefits to that apart from sex. But many Indian marriages are loveless and spiritually stultifying arrangements - just as many western marriages are. What makes the difference is love. If done right, I'm sure an Indian marriage will cultivate love rather than mere desire. But it's best not to leave that to chance, and to make love the principle from the start.
I'm not against the notion of traditional arranged marriages. One can love anyone, perhaps. It's only that one must actually practice love in the marriage, however it comes about. Because that is the principle and power that actually purifies one's householder karmas, one's kama, etc.
But anon clearly isn't ready yet for marriage. He has to deal with his sexual desires first, and clearly he's failing to control them. He prays to God in, I think, the mistaken belief that this is some error on his part, some fault, some curse. I don't see it that way at all. God has clearly given him a body and mind in this life that is highly charged sexually. That is is karma for this lifetime. Now, how does he deal with that? By suppression? By merely resorting to cultural means like marriage as a "cure"? Or does he take a more radical approach and see that he doesn't actually have a sexual problem, he has a problem with love, and start to love more, to make his sexual life about love? I think the latter. You clearly disagree.
This isn't just an east-west difference. It's a question of bringing God directly into one's life of attachments and the problems that ensue. That occurs by loving, since God is love. The rest is just the details, and I'm not arguing against those details, including marriage. He just needs to get started on the right foot, which is to start loving rather than sinning, and sinning includes the whole round of guilt and shame over sexual desire.
As for my friend's story about Anandamayi Ma, this incident did not occur when she was old and frail. If you are not aware, she was an extremely healthy and physically vibrant and strong woman for a very long time. I don't know what year the meeting was supposed to have occurred, and I have no other confirmation, nor have I ever sought any. My friend relayed the story as an initiated devotee of Anandamayi Ma, privy to much of the inside world around her, and not as a gossip. To him it was just an example of the subtle ways that Gurus like her make their feelings about things felt, and how devotees have to be sensitive to the signs they give. Serving a Guru like Anandamayi Ma requires a lot of sensitivity to those signs, and her devotees spent a lot of time cultivating that sensitivity and being able to read her actions so as to serve her better. Nothing more than that.
Even Ramana would give signs of displeasure to his devotees about various things that occurred around his ashram. He seldom came out directly and criticized anyone, but sometimes he too would walk away or fall silent or refuse to respond to a request he felt was inappropriate. The devotees had to be sensitive to these signs of his displeasure, because they were usually quite subtle. But they did occur.
S,
As I explained, I just heard the story from my friend who was initiated personally by Anandamayi Ma into the Guru-devotee relationship. I accepted his word, and never much cared further. Take it as you will.
As for quoting at length from various scriptures and writings, that is not really my interest on this forum. I am more interested in an informal personal exchange of our own views on these matters, not some kind of scholarly debate. This is not a good forum for that kind of thing. If that offends you, so be it.
As for asking you to write your opinions in sanskrit, I am just joking, I hope you know. Say whatever you like But it is still the logical outcome of your view that all translations are inadequate for even intellectual philosophical understanding. Even if you have the knowledge of sanskrit, to write in English still requires a translation of those ideas, and since that is inherently inadequate, that will mean that your English explanation must also be inadequate. Do you not see that? So really, your viewpoint requires that all discussion of such matters be conducted in Sanskrit or Tamil or whatever the original language was.
Now, I think that is self-evidently absurd, and this suggests that the idea behind it is self-evidently absurd also. And yes, that is very much a "Nagarjuna style argument" of reductio ad absurdum. But it seems rather effective, don't you think?
(probably not)
My point being that we are all relatively reasonable people with no great spiritual insights, and that the problems of translation are far outweighed in our cases by the problems of understanding itself. It is like trying to measure the size of atoms with a tape measure, and arguing about whether we should use English or metric units.
Broken Yogi,
Sorry friend,I have nothing to add to what I have said.Yes,I appreciate that you are emphasising on "Love'.May this Love blossom in each of us and may the Blessings of the Great ones be upon us.
Namaskar.
Ravi,
In relation to the meeting you linked to, I have emailed my friend asking for clarification of his story and any comment he has on this link. When he responds I will pass it on.
Perhaps there was more than one visit, and the latter ones went better.
Broken Yogi,
I just said that I was fortunate to see ma anandamayi when she was bedridden in 1981(if i remember right).That was in a room on the other side of her ashram in kankhal.
I was not trying to link this with what you said.( by interposing the above experience of mine within brackets! )
-----------------------------------
I know that sri Aurobindo is a Great Master and no story is going to alter that-Again I am not selling Sri Aurobindo to you.
Please do not mistake me,this privy circle and reading a guru's actions,signs,etc-These are just imaginations of ignorant disciples,initiated or otherwise.
Namaskar.
Extract from Chalam's(A well known Telugu writer devotee of Bhagawan) Autobiography
-------------------------------------------------------------
God did not create this whole universe. This is all His manifestation, just as light emanates
from a lamp. The relationship between Him and His creation is the same as that between the sun
and its light. But He is a living God and all-powerful. I asked Him about virtue and vice. All the
things that happen in this world are relative to man. These are all modifications of the mind. It is
those that create births, happiness and misery. God is underlies all these. He is not roaming
somewhere else.
“All these are things you wrote. Why do you doubt them again,” asked Ishwara.
The one obstacle I had in my understanding of God’s creation was rebirth. What’s the
connection between this lifetime and another? We don’t remember the reason for which we suffer
in this life, do we? By torturing a newly born child, would there be retribution for the sins it
committed as an adult in a previous life? Is this revenge or punishment? I quarreled a lot with
Him this way. He gave many answers to my questions. I learned all I needed to learn. The rest I
understood somewhere in the remote recesses of the mind. I was never tired of questioning. He
was never tired of answering every question of mine. Whenever I had a grave doubt, He would
say, “This is not something I did, I am just explaining it to you.”
When I asked, “But you are loving and kind, how could you tolerate all this suffering?” his
reply was: “You won’t understand how my kindness and love work. The beauty you see and the
happiness you find in the world are all part of my kindness.”
“All right, but I don’t understand your unkindness. If we observe the turmoil we suffer in
this world, anyone’s heart would melt, except yours.”
“Your questions are like the question of someone who walks in the middle of a play and
asks, ‘What’s all this about?’”
I pleaded, “Couldn’t you stop all this? Couldn’t you turn off the lights on the stage?”
His answer: “This is not the only world. There are hundreds of millions of worlds. But
suffering and hatred exist only in this world. There are worlds in which the things you had
dreamed about are manifested even better. You are going to be cleansed here, become fit for those
worlds, and experience infinite joys there. But you don’t have to hurry.” Then He mentioned
Bhagawan’s words to the effect that if you want to know the truth of what is really happening, your
mind must disappear. “Unless you transcend the maya that I have created, unless the curtain in
your mind tears open, you won’t have a vision of Truth. If you do the sadhanas I have
prescribed.... Anyhow, you are caught in my clutches. You can’t escape anyway. You will have the
vision of Truth.”
“What about others?” I asked.
How could I be happy while millions and millions of people are suffering?
[contd..]
-z
s,
I am yet to grasp the full import of that composition of appar swamigal-especially what he says 'idaikkalam allEn' and 'thudaikkinum pOgEn'-These lines recall to me Sri Ramakrishna's 'Ego of the Devotee'.Yet not sure of the context here.I will translate this once I get this one clarified.
Namaskar.
Friends,
A Friend emailed me this joke:
An ambitious MLA(Member of the Legislative Assembly) phoned the Chief Minister's home shortly after midnight. "I need to talk to the CM, it's an emergency!" exclaimed the MLA.
After some cajoling, the CM's assistant agreed to wake him up. "So, what is it that's so important that it can't wait until morning?" grumbled the CM.
"One of your ministers just died, and I want to take his place," begged the MLA.
"Well, it's OK with me if it's OK with the crematorium," replied the CM.
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi and Subramanian,
I am the one who posted about my passions and prayed a relief.
I would like to have your email ids please.
Let me tell you my complex situation.
Esp. Ravi suggested getting married. I need to first clarify you clearly in private before you could give a proper advise. Half baked info which I supplied did not give you the real picture.
Please kindly consider and do share your mail address.
Regards,
(name later)
Friends,
I wish to share Sri Aurobindo's wonderful writing on the Aspects of The Divine Mother.Like arvind had mentioned,Sri Aurobindo was revered by Sri ganapathi Muni for this reason(shakti upAsana) among others.
Four great Aspects of the Mother, four of her leading Powers and Personalities have stood in front in her guidance of this Universe and in her dealings with the terrestrial play. One is her personality of calm wideness and comprehending wisdom and tranquil benignity and inexhaustible compassion and sovereign and surpassing majesty and all-ruling greatness. Another embodies her power of splendid strength and irresistible passion, her warrior mood, her overwhelming will, her impetuous swiftness and world-shaking force. A third is vivid and sweet and wonderful with her deep secret of beauty and harmony and fine rhythm, her intricate and subtle opulence, her compelling attraction and captivating grace. The fourth is equipped with her close and profound capacity of intimate knowledge and careful flawless work and quiet and exact perfection in all things. Wisdom, Strength, Harmony, Perfection are their several attributes and it is these powers that they bring with them into the world, manifest in a human disguise in their Vibhutis and shall found in the divine degree of their ascension in those who can open their earthly nature to the direct and living influence of the Mother. To the four we give the four great names, Maheshwari, Mahakali, Mahalakshmi, Mahasaraswati."
continued...
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on the Divine Mother continued...
Imperial MAHESHWARI is seated in the wideness above the thinking mind and will and sublimates and greatens them into wisdom and largeness or floods with a splendour beyond them. For she is the mighty and wise One who opens us to the supramental infinities and the cosmic vastness, to the grandeur of the supreme Light, to a treasure-house of miraculous knowledge, to the measureless movement of the Mother's eternal forces. Tranquil is she and wonderful, great and calm for ever. Nothing can move her because all wisdom is in her; nothing is hidden from her that she chooses to know; she comprehends all things and all beings and their nature and what moves them and the law of the world and its times and how all was and is and must be. A strength is in her that meets everything and masters and
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none can prevail in the end against her vast intangible wisdom and high tranquil power. Equal, patient and unalterable in her will she deals with men according to their nature and with things and happenings according to their Force and the truth that is in them. Partiality she has none, but she follows the decrees of the Supreme and some she raises up and some she casts down or puts away from her into the darkness. To the wise she gives a greater and more luminous wisdom; those that have vision she admits to her counsels; on the hostile she imposes the consequence of their hostility; the ignorant and foolish she leads according to their blindness. In each man she answers and handles the different elements of his nature according to their need and their urge and the return they call for, puts on them the required pressure or leaves them to their cherished liberty to prosper in the ways of the Ignorance or to perish. For she is above all, bound by nothing, attached to nothing in the universe. Yet has she more than any other the heart of the universal Mother. For her compassion is endless and inexhaustible; all are to her eyes her children and portions of the One, even the Asura and Rakshasa and Pisacha and those that are revolted and hostile. Even her rejections are only a postponement, even her punishments are a grace. But her compassion does not blind her wisdom or turn her action from the course decreed; for the Truth of things is her one concern, knowledge her centre of power and to build our soul and our nature into the divine Truth her mission and her labour.
Continued...
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on The Divine Mother continued...
MAHAKALI is of another nature. Not wideness but height, not wisdom but force and strength are her peculiar power. There is in her an overwhelming intensity, a mighty passion of force to achieve, a divine violence rushing to shatter every limit and obstacle. All her divinity leaps out in a splendour of tempestuous action; she is there for swiftness, for the immediately effective process, the rapid and direct stroke, the frontal assault that carries everything before it. Terrible is her face to the Asura, dangerous and ruthless her mood against the haters of the Divine; for she is the Warrior of the Worlds who never shrinks from the battle. Intolerant of imperfection, she deals roughly with all in man that is unwilling and she is severe to all that is obstinately ignorant and obscure; her wrath is immediate and dire against treachery and falsehood and malignity, ill-will is smitten at once by her scourge. Indifference, negligence and sloth in the divine work she cannot bear and she smites awake at once with sharp pain, if need be, the untimely slumberer and the loiterer. The impulses that are swift and straight and frank, the
movements that are unreserved and absolute, the aspiration that mounts in flame are the motion of Mahakali. Her spirit is tameless, her vision and will are high and far-reaching like the flight of an eagle, her feet are rapid on the upward way and her hands are outstretched to strike and to succour. For she too is the Mother and her love is as intense as her wrath and she has a deep and passionate kindness. When she is allowed to intervene in her strength, then in one moment are broken like things without consistence the obstacles that immobilise or the enemies that assail the seeker. If her anger is dreadful to the hostile and the vehemence of her pressure painful to the weak and timid, she is loved and worshipped by the great, the strong and the noble; for they feel that her blows beat what is rebellious in their material into strength and perfect truth, hammer straight what is wry and perverse and expel what is impure or defective. But for her what is done in a day might have taken centuries; without her Ananda might be wide and grave or soft and sweet and beautiful but would lose the flaming joy of its most absolute intensities. To knowledge she gives a conquering might, brings to beauty and harmony a high and mounting movement and imparts to the slow and difficult labour after perfection an impetus that multiplies the power and shortens the long way. Nothing can satisfy her that falls short of the supreme
ecstasies, the highest heights, the noblest aims, the largest vistas. Therefore with her is the victorious force of the Divine and it is by grace of her fire and passion and speed if the great achievement can be done now rather than hereafter.
Continued...
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on The Divine Mother continued...
Wisdom and Force are not the only manifestations of the supreme Mother; there is a subtler mystery of her nature and without it Wisdom and Force would be incomplete things and without it perfection would not be perfect. Above them is the miracle of eternal beauty, an unseizable secret of divine harmonies, the compelling magic of an irresistible universal charm and attraction that draws and holds things and forces and beings together and obliges them to meet and unite that a hidden Ananda may play from behind the veil and make of them its rhythms and its figures. This is the power of MAHALAKSHMI and there is no aspect of the Divine Shakti more attractive to the heart of embodied beings. Maheshwari can appear too calm and great and distant for the littleness of earthly nature to approach or contain her, Mahakali too swift and formidable for its weakness to bear; but all turn with joy and longing to Mahalakshmi. For she throws the spell of the intoxicating sweetness of the Divine: to be close to her is a profound happiness and to feel her within the heart is to make existence a rapture and a marvel; grace and charm and tenderness flow out from her like light from the sun and wherever she fixes her wonderful gaze or lets fall the loveliness of her smile, the soul is seized and made captive and plunged into the depths of an unfathomable bliss. Magnetic is the touch of her hands and their occult and delicate influence refines mind and life and body and where she presses her feet course miraculous streams of an entrancing Ananda.
And yet it is not easy to meet the demand of this enchanting Power or to keep her presence. Harmony and beauty of the mind and soul, harmony and beauty of the thoughts and feelings, harmony and beauty in every outward act and movement, harmony and beauty of the life and surroundings, this is the demand of Mahalakshmi. Where there is affinity to the rhythms of the secret world-bliss and response to the call of the All-Beautiful and concord and unity and the glad flow of many lives turned towards the Divine, in that atmosphere she consents to abide. But all that is ugly and mean and base, all that is poor and sordid and squalid, all that is brutal and coarse repels her advent. Where love and beauty are not or are reluctant to be born, she does not come; where they are mixed and disfigured with baser things, she turns soon to depart or cares little to pour her riches. If she finds herself in men's hearts surrounded with selfishness and hatred and jealousy and malignance and envy and strife, if treachery and greed and ingratitude are mixed in the sacred chalice, if grossness of passion and unrefined desire degrade devotion, in such hearts the gracious and beautiful Goddess will not linger. A divine disgust seizes upon her and she withdraws, for she is not one who insists or strives; or, veiling her face, she waits for this bitter and poisonous devil's stuff to be rejected and disappear before she will found anew her happy influence. Ascetic bareness and harshness are not pleasing to her nor the suppression of the heart's deeper emotions and the rigid repression of the soul's and the life's parts of beauty. For it is through love and beauty that she lays on men the yoke of the Divine. Life is turned in her supreme creations into a rich work of celestial art and all existence into a poem of sacred delight; the world's riches are brought together and concerted for a supreme order and even the simplest and commonest things are made wonderful by her intuition of unity and the breath of her spirit. Admitted to the heart she lifts wisdom to pinnacles of wonder and reveals to it the mystic secrets of the ecstasy that surpasses all knowledge, meets devotion with the passionate attraction of the Divine, teaches to strength and force the rhythm that keeps the might of their acts harmonious and in measure and casts on perfection the charm that makes it endure for ever.
Continued...
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on The Divine Mother continued...
MAHASARASWATI is the Mother's Power of Work and her spirit of perfection and order. The youngest of the Four, she is the most skilful in executive faculty and the nearest to physical Nature. Maheshwari lays down the large lines of the world-forces, Mahakali drives their energy and impetus, Mahalakshmi discovers their rhythms and measures, but Mahasaraswati presides over their detail of organisation and execution, relation of parts and effective combination of forces and unfailing exactitude of result and fulfilment. The science and craft and technique of things are Mahasaraswati's province. Always she holds in her nature and can give to those whom she has chosen the intimate and precise knowledge, the subtlety and patience, the accuracy of intuitive mind and conscious hand and discerning eye of the perfect worker. This Power is the strong, the tireless, the careful and efficient builder, organiser, administrator, technician, artisan and classifier of the worlds. When she takes up the transformation and new-building of the nature, her action is laborious and minute and often seems to our impatience slow and interminable, but it is persistent, integral and flawless. For the will in her works is scrupulous, unsleeping indefatigable; leaning over us she notes and touches every little detail, fine out every minute defect, gap, twist or incompleteness, considers and weighs accurately all that has been done and all that remains still to be done hereafter. Nothing is too small or apparently trivial for her attention; nothing however impalpable or disguised or latent can escape her. Moulding and remoulding she labours each part till it has attained its true form, is put in its exact place in the whole and fulfils its precise purpose. In her constant a. diligent arrangement and rearrangement of things her eye is on all needs at once and the way to meet them and her intuition knows what is to be chosen and what rejected and successful determines the right instrument, the right time, the right conditions and the right process. Carelessness and negligence and indolence she abhors; all scamped and hasty and shuffling work, all clumsiness and à peu près and misfire, all false adaptation and misuse of instruments and faculties and leaving of things undone or half done is offensive and foreign to her temper. When her work is finished, nothing has been forgotten, no part has been misplaced or omitted or left in a faulty condition; all is solid, accurate, complete, admirable. Nothing short of a perfect perfection satisfies her and she is ready to face an eternity of toil if that is needed for the fullness of her creation. Therefore of all the Mother's powers she is the most long-suffering with man and his thousand imperfections. Kind, smiling, close and helpful, not easily turned away or discouraged, insistent even after repeated failure, her hand sustains our every step on condition that we are single in our will and straightforward and sincere; for a double mind she will not tolerate and her revealing irony is merciless to drama and histrionics and self-deceit and pretence. A mother to our wants, a friend in our difficulties, a persistent and tranquil counsellor and mentor, chasing away with her radiant smile the clouds of gloom and fretfulness and depression, reminding always of the ever-present help, pointing to the eternal sunshine, she is firm, quiet and persevering in the deep and continuous urge that drives us towards the integrality of the higher nature. All the work of the other Powers leans on her for its completeness; for she assures the material foundation, elaborates the stuff of detail and erects and rivets the armour of the structure.
continued....
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on The Divine Mother continued...
There are other great Personalities of the Divine Mother, but they were more difficult to bring down and have not stood out in front with so much prominence in the evolution of the earth-spirit. There are among them Presences indispensable for the supramental realisation, ― most of all one who is her Personality of that mysterious and powerful ecstasy and Ananda which flows from a supreme divine Love, the Ananda that alone can heal the gulf between the highest heights of the supramental spirit and the lowest abysses of Matter, the Ananda that holds the key of a wonderful divinest Life and even now supports from its secrecies the work of all the other Powers of the universe. But human nature bounded, egoistic and obscure is inapt to receive these great Presences or to support their mighty action. Only when the Four have founded their harmony and freedom of movement in the transformed mind and life and body, can those other rarer Powers manifest in the earth movement and the supramental action become possible. For when her Personalities are all gathered in her and manifested and their separate working has been turned into a harmonious unity and they rise in her to their supramental godheads, then is the Mother revealed as the supramental Mahashakti and brings pouring down her luminous transcendences from their ineffable ether. Then can human nature change into dynamic divine nature because all the elemental lines of the supramental Truth-consciousness and Truth-force are strung together and the harp of life is fitted for the rhythms of the Eternal.
If you desire this transformation, put yourself in the hands of Mother and her Powers without cavil or resistance and let her do unhindered her work within you. Three things you must have, consciousness, plasticity, unreserved surrender. For you must be conscious in your mind and soul and heart and life and the very cells of your body, aware of the Mother and her Powers and their working; for although she can and does work in you even in your obscurity and your unconscious parts and movements, it is not the same thing as when you are in an awakened and living communion with her. All your nature must be plastic to her touch, ― not questioning as the self-sufficient ignorant mind questions and doubts and disputes and is the enemy of its enlightenment and change; not insisting on its own movements as the vital in man insists and persistently opposes its refractory desires and ill-will to every divine influence; not obstructing and entrenched in incapacity, inertia and tamas as man's physical consciousness obstructs and clinging to its pleasure in smallness and darkness cries out against each touch that disturbs its soulless routine or its dull sloth or its torpid slumber. The unreserved surrender of your inner and outer being will bring this plasticity into all the parts of your nature; consciousness will awaken everywhere in you by constant openness to the Wisdom and Light, the Force, the Harmony and Beauty, the Perfection that come flowing down from above. Even the body will awake and unite at last its consciousness subliminal no longer to the supramental superconscious Force, feel all her powers permeating from above and below and around it and thrill to a supreme Love and Ananda.
Continued...
Friends,
Sri Aurobindo on The Divine Mother continued...
But be on your guard and do not try to understand and judge the Divine Mother by your little earthly mind that loves to subject even the things that are beyond it to its own norms and standards, its narrow reasonings and erring impressions, its bottomless aggressive ignorance and its petty self-confident knowledge. The human mind shut in the prison of its half-lit obscurity cannot follow the many-sided freedom of the steps of the Divine Shakti. The rapidity and complexity of her vision and action outrun its stumbling comprehension; the measures of her movement are not its measures. Bewildered by the swift alteration of her many different personalities, her making of rhythms and her breaking of rhythms, her accelerations of speed and her retardations, her varied ways of dealing with the problem of one and of another, her taking up and dropping now of this line and now of that one and her gathering of them together, it will not recognise the way of the Supreme Power when it is circling and sweeping upwards through the maze of the Ignorance to a supernal Light. Open rather your soul to her and be content
to feel her with the psychic nature and see her with the psychic vision that alone make a straight response to the Truth. Then the Mother herself will enlighten by their psychic elements your mind and heart and life and physical consciousness and reveal to them too her ways and her nature.
Avoid also the error of the ignorant mind's demand on the divine power to act always according to our crude surface notions of omniscience and omnipotence. For our mind clamours to be impressed at every turn by miraculous power and easy success and dazzling splendour; otherwise it cannot believe that here is the Divine. The Mother is dealing with the Ignorance in the fields of the Ignorance; she has descended there and is not all above. Partly she veils and partly she unveils her knowledge and her power, often holds them back from her instruments and personalities and follows that she may transform them the way of the seeking mind, the way of the aspiring psychic, the way of the battling vital, the way of the imprisoned and suffering physical nature. There are conditions that have been laid down by a Supreme Will, there are many tangled knots that have to be loosened and cannot be cut abruptly asunder. The Asura and Rakshasa hold this evolving earthly nature and have to be met and conquered on their own terms in their own long-conquered fief and province; the human in us has to be led and prepared to transcend its limits and is too weak and obscure to be lifted up suddenly to a form far beyond it. The Divine Consciousness and Force are there and do at each moment the thing that is needed in the conditions of the labour, take always the step that is decreed and shape in the midst of imperfection the perfection that is to come. But only when the supermind has descended in you can she deal directly as the supramental Shakti with supramental natures. If you follow your mind, it will not recognise the Mother even when she is manifest before you. Follow your soul and not your mind, your soul that answers to the Truth, not your mind that leaps at appearances; trust the Divine Power and she will free the godlike elements in you and shape all into an expression of Divine Nature.
Namaskar.
Anonymous,
My email id is niveditahr@rediffmail.com.
Namaskar.
Dear S.,
ANi Thillai Chitrambalam - The well
adorned Tiruchitrambalam, Thillai
or Chidambaram.
Padaikalam aha un namam anchezhuthum koNden - I have got the invincible
weapon of Panchaksharam, Namasivaya,
on my tongue [i.e I am ever chanting Panchaksharam]
Idaikalam - in between I will not give room for any other thoughts.
Thudaikunum pohen - If if you
remove me through death, I shall not leave you,
I shall serve you since you have taken hold of me, in all my births.
I have taken refuge in You. Every morning after bath, and adorning Vibhuti, I shall always pray to You, without fail.
For Thudakinum pothen, there could be some other meaning also.
Dear Anon.,
My e mail ID is g337h4@yahoo.com.
On 8th October 1938, in the evening,
when Annamalai Swami and Sri Bhagavan were strolling on the Hill,
AS asked Sri Bhagavan: Bhagavan! I do not want anything else in this world. Only this dehatma buddhi
[body thought] should not come to me.
Please bless.
Sri Bhagaan nodded His head and said:" Only for this, all great people are suffering and are putting efforts. You are also like them."
Reflections on Talks: S.S. Cohen.
"How to turn the mind away from the world, you say? Is there a world apart from the Self? Does the world
say that I am existing? It is you, who say, that there is a world. Find out the Self who says it."
The sentence of this answer is the same to many such questions asked by devotees. Here, it differs from them in form. In all fundamental principles, we discover unity in the substance but diversity in the presentation, which is the superficial form....Even the voluminous Vedas could be summed up in one syllable, OM.
Thinking is the world. It creates the world. We think and our thoughts appear as the external objects. Even the discoveries in science that the world is there for ever, does not alter the truth that even these scientific theories are only thoughts and notions.
A devotee asked Sri Bhagavan:
"How do we go to sleep and how do we wake up?"
Sri Bhagavan replied:
"Just at nightfall the hen clucks and the chicks go and hide themselves under her wing. Then the hen goes to roost in the nest with the chicks in her protection. At dawn, the chicks come out, so does the hen. The mother-hen stands for the ego which collects all thoughts [the chicks] and goes to sleep. At sunrise, the rays emerge forth and are collected again at sunset. Similarly when the ego displays itself, it does it with all its paraphernalia, that is waking. When it sinks everything disappears with it. That is sleep - Sushupti.
[BHAGAVAN RAMANA - THE FRIEND OF ALL].
MAHARSHI'S GOSPEL - IV - THE HEART IS THE SELF.
From the absolute standpoint, the
heart, Self or Consciousness can have no particular place assigned to it in the physical body. What is the reason? The body is itself a mere projection of the mind, and the mind is but a poor reflection of the radiant heart. How can That, in which everything is contained, be itself confined to a tiny part within the physical body which is but an infinitesimal, phenomenal manifestation of the one Reality?
But people do not understand this.
They cannot help thinking in terms of the physical body and the world. For instance, you say, "I have come to this Asramam all the way from my country beyond the Himalayas." But that is not the truth. Where is 'coming' or 'going' or any movement whatever, for the one, all-pervading Spirit which you really are? You are where you have always been. It is your body that moved or was conveyed from place till it reached this Asramam.
This is the simple truth, but to a person who considers himself a subject living in the objective world, it appears as something altogether visionary!
It is by coming down to the level or ordinary understanding that a place is assigned to the heart in the physical body.
THE HEART IS THE SELF -
CHAPTER IV OF MAHARSHI'S GOSPEL:
D: Sri Bhagavan speaks of the heart as the seat of Consciousness and as identical with the Self. What does the hear exactly signify?
Sri B: The question about the heart arises because you are interested in seeking the source of Consciousness. To all deep thinking mind, the inquiry about the 'I' and its nature has an irresistible fascination. Call it by any name, God,Self, the heart or the seat of Consciousness, it is all the same. The point to be grasped is this, the Heart means the very core of one's being, the Centre, without which there is nothing whatsoever.
D: But Sri Bhagavan has specified a particular place for the heart, within the physical body, that it is in the chest, two digits to the right from the median.
Sri B: Yes. That is the centre of spiritual experience according to the testimony of the Sages. This spiritual heart-centre is quite different from the blood-propelling, muscular organ known by the same name. The spiritual heart-centre is not an organ of he body. All that you can say of the heart is that it is the very core of your Being. That with which you are really identical [as the word in Sanskrit literally means], whether you are awake, asleep or dreaming, whether you are engaged in work or immersed in Samadhi.
D: In that case, how can it be localized in any part of the body? Fixing a place for the heart would imply setting physiological limitations to That which is beyond space and time.
Sri B: That is right. But the person who puts the question about the position of the heart, considers himself as existing with or in the body. While putting the question now, would you say that your body alone is here, but that you are speaking from somewhere else? No. You accept your bodily existence. It is from this point of view that any reference to a physical body comes to be made.
Truly speaking, Pure Consciousness is indivisible, it is without parts. It has no form and shape, no 'within' and no 'without'. There is no 'right' or 'left' for it. Pure Consciousness which is the heart, includes all. And nothing is outside or apart from it. That is the ultimate Truth.
Friends,
Came across this interesting writeup on Swami Poornananda Tirtha.
Here is an excerpt:
He spoke tellingly of the mystic lore, the hidden tradition of wisdom, the delicate and profound knowledge of the Rishis. There were simple and practical tips that one could gain from the discoveries of the Rishis. Many times, he was asked if the practice of Pranayama and meditation would lead to enlightenment. He, taught that to do anything for enlightenment is incorrect; it assumes that enlightenment can be had by desiring it. On the other hand, it cannot be said that there is no effort involved. Awareness and energy are the two attributes of creation. He taught that sages and seers had discovered ways of tapping awareness and joumeying towards the source. This is called Pragnopasana. They had also found ways of tapping energy and going towards the source. This is called Pranopasana. Together the two constitute Brahma Vidya, the art and science of freedom. These processes can be a great help for one interested in leading a religious life.
Please visit:
http://www.gautama.info/index.php?page=32
The Biographical sketch is written with great sensitivity and lovingly.
The other articles are also good,partculary the talk by swamiji on Brahma Vidya.
Namaskar.
... Thinking is the world. It creates the world. We think and our thoughts appear as the external objects. Even the discoveries in science that the world is there for ever, does not alter the truth that even these scientific theories are only thoughts and notions. ...
"M.: To forget everything is the ultimate means. But for thought, the world does not arise. Do not think and it will not arise. When nothing arises in the mind, the mind itself is lost. Therefore do not think of anything, forget all. This is the best way to kill the mind." (ADVAITA BODHA DEEPIKA)
But it's difficult to find someone who really wants to forget even his master.
Friends,
Broken Yogi referred to Balaram bose's daughter,How Sri Ramakrishna asked her to regard her Nephew as Child Krishna,and how she realized God in a sweet and natural way.
Here is another Living example of Ma gurupriya,an excerpt from her wonderful article,'In the Company of My Lord':
Harmony through Flowers
On Sundays, a lady used to bring marigold garlands to sell. Those days I was able to place flowers on the copper plate. I had seen in Sri Aurobindo Ashram (Pondicherry) how beautifully the shrine used to be decorated with flowers. The ladies who did this were able to bring out beautiful designs effortlessly with whatever flowers were available. I wondered, where from have they learnt this art, not knowing that it comes from the heart. It comes as an offering. I too wanted to make designs with flowers surrounding the Sivalinga, but found myself a complete failure. However, I kept on trying.
Very soon, we moved to Kharagpur. And Lord, seeing my desire to offer Him flowers, gifted me a garden. My joy knew no bounds when first time I plucked a hibiscus and placed it on the shining copper plate at the feet of the Sivalinga. Aroopji and myself both gazed with awe – at the purity. The same touch of purity we used to feel looking at dew drops on white flowers, dew drops on soft grass blades.
This was the time the Sivalinga started becoming a small Krishna and both of us started calling it ‘Poshaa’ (The Bengali word for ‘pet’). I used to wrap white Mandaara petals round his waist as if to make him wear a dhoti. I would tell him: “ Put on a dhoti; should you remain naked?” Gopala would dance and clap in joy.
I had not left my job in Calcutta till then and I used to come to Kharagpur only during weekends and vacations. Once Aroopji wrote to me: “Both of us feel lonely and miserable – myself and your little child. He would not accept Mandaara-dhoti from me – keeps on falling flat on the floor; spreading his legs he cries and calls: “Come Mother, come!”
That weekend when I came and wrapped a petal around his waist he did not fall but looked so happy and bright!
Very soon I left my job and came away to Kharagpur. Swamiji had told me to leave the job and not to get employed again. He advised me to utilize the time for saadhana, especially in reading Sreemad Bhaagavatam. My saadhana of cleaning and shining pooja vessels continued. By that time I had acquired a small brass lamp which I used to clean spotlessly everyday and light. The unwavering flame always reminded me of ‘aspiration’ – mind’s aspiration for God.
The garden was full of flowers. I knew the growth of each plant right from planting – the growth of each and every leaf, each and every bud, and its blossoming. Early morning, after bath, one of us used to pluck flowers for pooja. The flowers that were decorating the trees, would try to jump into the flower basket with a desire to be offered. While plucking, the ‘little pet’ would point to different flowers and say: “This one, this one”. One day, he started weeping for grass-flowers – blue and yellow ones – since I would not normally pluck those for pooja. Finally I did, and he said: “Why? They might be mere grass-flowers but are they not mine? Are they not equally pure and beautiful?”
Slowly I discovered that my flower offering was also coming from my heart effortlessly. Beautiful designs were made from whatever flowers had been collected. The designs would get formed spontaneously and be completed perfectly with the last flower in the basket. As the flowers used to get arranged by my hand, the mind also would get arranged and become peaceful. I could feel a harmony, a purity. There used to be a cool soothing feeling on the eyelids.
Please visit:
http://www.brahmavidya.org/articles/Maa_articles/icml_1.htm
You may explore other articles of Ma gurpriya and others-Loving and insightful,with a practical bearing on sAdhana.
Namaskar.
Friends,
Anonymous had asked how to overcome passion and guilt.Swami BhoomAnda tirtha explains how to reject and get over these fixations.
Here is an excerpt:
P: Yes Swamiji, I do understand. But how to stop indulging in a wrong practice ? One feels helplessly drawn to it again and again compelled by the mind and the senses. Is there any straightforward method by which one can come out of it ?
Swamiji : Yes, there is a way. Our Sastras do discuss the subject with a lot of importance. You do not want to do a certain thing, yet you do it helplessly : drinking, thieving, speaking lies, indulging in some perverted practices, etc.
In all these cases, what you should constantly do is to evaluate the cause and the consequences of the practice, its degrading and weakening effects on your mind and body. You must always weigh its deeper and longterm harmful effects against its immediate attraction or pleasure. Tell yourself : "This is wrong. Harmful to others as well as myself. I want to get rid of it. It must leave me the soonest."
Initially, you may at times allow it physically. But denounce it mentally. Denounce it sternly. No time you should permit it as the least desirable. Mentally register your decision to get rid of it. Every time you fail in your resolve you must feel bad about the failure. This repeated assertion and condemnation will strengthen the mind against the indulgence.
If you persist like this earnestly, after some time the mind will become sufficiently strong. The practice will also become proportionately weak. The process of withdrawal may take a few weeks or months. But, within a year or so, withdrawal from any wrong practice must be possible.
In our country, getting rid of passion is regarded as very important in spiritual life. Passion is even held to be a beastly instinct. Many seekers recognize it as a great hindrance and want to get rid of it early in life. Sometimes, due to age and heredity, the senses do not obey their command. So, for such earnest seekers, there are some prescriptions in our tradition. One way is to read devotionally the Raasa-panchaadhyaya of Sreemad Bhaagavatam. It is a vivid description of Sri Krishna's sport with the Vraja women. With every reading, in the background of the spirituo-devotional attitude and aim, the passion will grow weak. Very soon the seeker's passion gets sublimated. So also by repeated reading of Jayadeva's Geeta Govinda, passion gets sublimated.
Reduce the physical involvement gradually, but sternly denounce the indulgence mentally – this is what our tradition says. And if you are earnest in your effort, very soon you will be able to get rid of the wrong practice."
Please visit:
http://www.brahmavidya.org/articles/over_guilt.htm
Namaskar.
Friends,
Rejection and sublimational approach (as mentioned by Swami Bhoomanandaji)alone will not do.The Positive movement should go hand in hand -This is aspiration.Reading devotional life of great ones is a powerful help,that will help the aspirant to deepen his consciousness and will naturally lead to surrender in a spontaneous way(and not as a mental exercise).
The more and more that one organizes one's Living,making the spiritual aspiration the one and central aim of Living,all difficulties will fade away like a bad dream.
The tips given by s are quite important and a neat 'to do List'.R.Subramanaian's recommendations emphasize the positive side of aspiration and surrender.Quite practical.Patience and perseverance will see one through.
Namaskar.
Dear Clemens Vargas Ramos,
I believe that this state comes about when the seeker realizes the
Self and thereafter the Master and the Seeker are one and the same Self. Since there is no two entities, the seeker forgetting the Master does not arise.
When Sanatkumara was siting and when Siva came that side, Sanatkumara did not even stand up
and did namaskaram to Siva. Because, Sanatkumara had become Siva realizing the Self and there were no two entities as far as he was concerned.
There was one Narayana Guru in Kerala, and he was from a lower caste. But he was a Jnani, well known for his verses in Sanskrit, Tamizh and Malayalam. When he came to meet Sri Bhagavan, the former saw Him through the grill door of Skandasramam and each gazed at another. Narayana Guru came back and sat under a tree. After sometime, Sri B came out and said: Ooonu kazhkikamo, can we eat, in Malayalam. Narayana Guru replied in Tamizh: Aha, Bhagavan prasadam saapitalam. We can eat Bhagavan prasadam. Both ate. After a few minutes of gaze, Sri B left for His stroll. Narayana Guru was pleasantly astonished at Sri B's state! Here is a man, who never asked, what is your name, what is your place, what is your caste, wherefrom you have come, where do you go from here...? Because He is nirvritti state, thoughtless state, where He is the Self, the One without a second. When Sri B came back from stroll, Narayana Guru took leave of Him, when Sri B smiled, gazed intently and said: Angane aavatte. Let that [state] come to you too!
Sri Narayana Guru wrote Nirviritti Panchakam immediately and gave the paper to Sri B's attendant and left. After going back to Kerala, he wrote another Municharya Pancahakam and sent it. He says: Nitya Swanubhava Nijananada Swarupam, advaita raja sarpam.., He is ever in His own permanent
experience, true bliss, non dual King Cobra.
Thanks Ravi for Aurobindo's picturisations of Sakthi.First he calls her Mother and then gives her various names:Kali, Lakshmi, Saraswati and so on and again his Mother is mad:
*****
The rapidity and complexity of her vision and action outrun its stumbling comprehension; the measures of her movement are not its measures. Bewildered by the swift alteration of her many different personalities, her making of rhythms and her breaking of rhythms, her accelerations of speed and her retardations, her varied ways of dealing with the problem of one and of another, her taking up and dropping now of this line and now of that one and her gathering of them together, it will not recognise the way of the Supreme Power when it is circling and sweeping upwards through the maze of the Ignorance to a supernal Light...
*****
It looks like he loved his entertainment.At some point the Mother became Three women.Then played around madly untill they became bored.In the next episode of the series we shall find them three Fathers.And the next episode it is natural they will have children.Just for variety sake each child will be different and have his own character.One is Fat and slow but clever; the younger will be quick and immature.And the next series time to marry of the kids and the moms will become in-laws.And the next series moms and daughter-in-laws will have their own moods, tantrums and cat fights.Then the husbands set limits and boundaries(lakshmana Rekha) and the moms thrill at crossing them.Lets introduce some trouble as the purpose of life is lost again.So one of them plays the devil and it goes on.
Now lets introduce a late night show called 'Vaartika' which discusses and analyses this weeks's episode.You can also buy themed books, perfumes,souvenirs and organize a cult(blog).
It's a bit too boring now and how about destroying the whole thing??
-z
R.Subramanaian/Friends,
Wonderful post on Sri Bhagavan and Sri nArAyana guru's meeting.Yes,he who forgets the guru without getting rid of the 'I' is unfortunate indeed.In fact The Guru is fully understood only when the Disciple is not-and our friend Scott had repeatedly quoted Master Nome.
Ramos wants to emphasize perhaps the need to go beyond thoughts,but the Guru thought is the only one that needs to be kept to give up all the rest.As the Tirukkural says-paRRuga paRRaRRAn paRRinai appaRRaip paRRuga paRRu vidaRku(Kural 350)-
meaning,Hold on with attachment to the one without attachment(Guru);Hold on to That attachment to get rid of attachment.
How sri Bhagavan did not enquire name,place,etc!Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"After attaining God one forgets His external splendour; the glories of His creation. One
doesn't think of God's glories after one has seen Him. The devotee, once immersed in God's
Bliss, doesn't calculate any more about outer things. When I see Narendra, I don't need to
ask him: 'What's your name? Where do you live?' Where is the time for such questions?
Once a man asked Hanuman which day of the fortnight it was. 'Brother,' said Hanuman, 'I
don't know anything of the day of the week, or the fortnight, or the position of the stars. I
think of Rama alone.' "
Such is the state of JnAnis.
Namaskar.
z,
Friend,I understand that it is not easy for our mind used to 'rational' thinking to understand these aspects of the Divine shakti.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Different manifestations of Kali
KESHAB (with a smile): "Describe to us, sir, in how many ways Kali, the Divine Mother,
sports in this world."
MASTER (with a smile): "Oh, She plays in different ways. It is She alone who is known as
Maha-Kali, Nitya-Kali, Smasana-Kali, Raksha-Kali, and Syama-Kali. Maha-Kali and
Nitya-Kali are mentioned in the Tantra philosophy. When there were neither the creation,
nor the sun, the moon, the planets, and the earth and when darkness was enveloped in
darkness, then the Mother, the Formless One, Maha-Kali, the Great Power, was one with
Maha-Kala, the Absolute.
"Syama-Kali has a somewhat tender aspect and is worshipped in the Hindu households. She
is the Dispenser of boons and the Dispeller of fear. People worship Raksha-Kali, the
Protectress, in times of epidemic, famine, earthquake, drought, and flood. Smasana-Kali is
the embodiment of the power of destruction. She resides in the cremation ground,
surrounded by corpses, jackals, and terrible female spirits. From Her mouth flows a stream
of blood, from Her neck hangs a garland of human heads, and around Her waist is a girdle
made of human hands.
Beginning of a cycle
"After the destruction of the universe, at the end of a great cycle, the Divine Mother garners
the seeds for the next creation. She is like the elderly mistress of the house, who has a
hotchpotch-pot in which she keeps different articles for household use. (All laugh.)
"Oh, yes! Housewives have pots like that, where they keep 'sea-foam', blue pills, small
bundles of seeds of cucumber, pumpkin, and gourd, and so on. They take them out when
they want them. In the same way, after the destruction of the universe, my Divine Mother,
the Embodiment of Brahman, gathers together the seeds for the next creation. After the
creation the Primal Power dwells in the universe itself. She brings forth this phenomenal
world and then pervades it. In the Vedas creation is likened to the spider and its web. The
spider brings the web out of itself and then remains in it. God is the container of the
universe and also what is contained in it.
"Is Kali, my Divine Mother, of a black complexion? She appears black because She is
viewed from a distance; but when intimately known She is no longer so. The sky appears
blue at a distance; but look at it close by and you will find that it has no colour. The water
of the ocean looks blue at a distance, but when you go near and take it in your hand, you
find that it is colourless."
-----------------------------------
If we read Sri Ramakrishna,the Great Master by swami sAradananda,we will find that of all forms of the Mother ,Lalaita Tripura sundari is the most enchanting.The Great ones are in a position to commune with these aspects and actually see them.In Swamiji's life as well,when he visits Kshir BhavAni temple and as he sees the ruins and feels intensely about it,he hears a femalevoice telling him-"Am I protecting you or are you Protecting me"!!!Swamiji could never explain it in a 'rational' way.
There are more things in heaven than are dreamt of.
The Great ones describe these aspects through different names,but these are all aspects of the one Adya Shakti.
Namaskar.
z,
Here is an excerpt from Conversations with SwAmiji:
"Then Swamiji said that on the way back he returned to Srinagar by the common route by which the pilgrims return. A few days after returning to Srinagar, he went to visit Kshir Bhavani Devi and staying there for seven days worshipped the Devi and made Homa to her with offerings of Kshira (condensed milk). Every day he used to worship the Devi with a maund of Kshira as offering. One day, while worshipping, the thought arose in Swamiji's mind: "Mother Bhavani has been manifesting Her Presence here for untold years. The Mohammedans came and destroyed her temple, yet the people of the place did nothing to protect Her. Alas, if I were then living I could never have borne it silently." When, thinking in this strain, his mind was much oppressed with sorrow and anguish, he distinctly heard the voice of the Mother say - ing, "It was according to My desire that the Mohammedans destroyed this temple. It is My desire that I should live in a dilapidated temple, otherwise, can I not immediately erect a seven - storeyed temple of gold here if I like? What can you do? Shall I protect you or shall you protect me!" Swamiji said, "Since hearing that divine voice, I cherish no more plans. The idea of building Maths etc. I have given up; as Mother wills, so it will be." The disciple, speechless with wonder, began to think, "Did he not one day tell me that whatever I saw and heard was but the echo of the Atman within me, that there was nothing outside?"-- and fearlessly spoke it out also --"Sir, you used to say that Divine Voices are the echo of our inward thoughts and feelings." Swamiji gravely said, "Whether it be internal or external, if you actually hear with your ears such a disembodied voice, as I have done, can you deny it and call it false? Divine Voices are actually heard, just as you and I are talking."
The disciple, without controverting accepted Swamiji's words, for his words always carried conviction.
For the complete conversation,please read:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_7/Conversations_And_Dialogues/IV
These are among the last of swAmiji's conversations.
Namaskar.
z,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of sri Ramakrishna:
When he was told that Keshab talked to the Divine Mother and laughed and cried, the
Master became ecstatic. Presently he went into samadhi.
It was winter and the Master was wearing a green flannel coat with a shawl thrown over it.
He sat straight, with his eyes fixed, deep in ecstasy. A long time passed in this way. There
was no indication of his returning to the normal plane of consciousness.
Gradually it became dark. Lamps were lighted in the drawing-room, where the Master was
now to go. While he was slowly coming down to the plane of ordinary consciousness, he
was taken there, though with great difficulty. The room was well furnished. At the sight of
the furniture, the Master muttered to himself, "These things were necessary before, but of
what use are they now?" Seeing Rakhal, he said, "Oh, hello! Are you here?" Then, seating
himself on a couch, he again lost consciousness of the outer world, and, looking around as
if seeing someone, he said: "Hello, Mother! I see that You too have come. How You are
showing off in Your Benares sari! Don't bother me now, please. Sit down and be quiet."
There is a wonderful sequel to The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,where in the talks of 'M' are recorded by Swami Nityatmananda and brought out in about 11 Volumes-'M,The Apostle and Evangelist'.In one of the talks Master Mahasaya dwells on this particular reference in The Gospel and says how thAkur describes the sari and how this impacts the brahmos who do not believe in forms of god.
Namaskar.
... Since there is no two entities, the seeker forgetting the Master does not arise. ...
So far the theory. But how to reach the goal? It needs practice. Advaita Bodha Deepika describes this practice as forgetting the projections of the mind. This includes to forget memories as well.
Of course 'forgetting' does not mean here a kind of experience of deep sleep but awareness without projections.
But the mind don't wants to give up its projections. It wants to make EXPERIENCES. But for self-realization it is absolutely necessary to renounce all experiences except of this unique experience of reality.
Therefore our european master Raphael once said: 'I have closed all my books of experiences.'
Ravi ,
I have not denied anything.All those are true.The only difference is that my words do not carry the right emotion for you at the right place.Did not the same great saints use the words 'Leela'.Mother denotes seriousness and does not go right with 'Leela'.In my last comment I highlighted the part of your clipping where Aurobindo is calling her 'Mad'.So how different are my words except that they are curt.Atleast I am being honest.Big Saints have their own ways of criticizing.
These caricatures are brought into the common human domain; everybody reads it and they all imagine it in their meditations.Different people in different cultures imagine their own caricatures.
Too many words and caricatures do not do us any good.If Aurobindo lived any longer he would have said just like Kabir,Meera Bai; sorry Folks I take it all back; it was all my wet dream(Maya).It is bad to read all these caricatures, wet dreams and experiences.It only means that much unwinding.Unwinding or release means so called ecstasy and experiences.In that is entertainment(Leela).
Did n't our elders say don't watch too much TV?
-z
We heard it already many times but it's worth it to think it over and over again:
In describing the Self or Brahman, negation is a primary means of both meditation and revelation. Because the Self can never be objectivized, that is perceived or conceived as an object, be it an object of the senses or an object of thought, it is not possible to say or think of what the Self is. Whatever is conceived to be the Self, be such conception worldly or spiritual in character, it can never be one's actual Existence.
Introduction to the Spiritual Knowledge of the Tamil Ribhu Gita
By negation in the process of inquiry into the Self this ignorance is destroyed. Therefore, rather than seek a new objective definition, which must necessarily be as false as the supplanted definitions, the spiritual aspirant is exhorted to negate every conceptual definition, every misidentification and attachment, so that one's real Being, Consciousness itself, remains as it is.
Introduction to the Spiritual Knowledge of the Tamil Ribhu Gita
z,
I do not understand what you are trying to say.Are you saying that 'Lila' is something that should be a 'light' affair and that the Mother is 'mad' and 'serious' and does not gel with the 'concept' of lila?This 'Lila' is not entertainment,not a caprice,not a farce.It is not as if one gets bored of too much 'watching' and switches off.That is not how 'lila' is to be understood.
Friend,you posted from Chalam:
"I pleaded, “Couldn’t you stop all this? Couldn’t you turn off the lights on the stage?”
His answer: “This is not the only world. There are hundreds of millions of worlds. But
suffering and hatred exist only in this world. There are worlds in which the things you had
dreamed about are manifested even better."
Sri Aurobindo says that things can be better manifested in this world.Now this is something that one may agree with or disagree with.It may be viewed as the next logical sequence to Maya and lila(as understood by the ordinary mind) or as just fanciful imaginations of a dreamer caught up in illusion of his own making.If we make a serious study of Sri Aurobindo(given his penchant for long winding sentences)one may find that this is highly unlikely that he is a 'Dreamer' in the sense that we understand.
In fact in sri Ramakrishna and VivekAnanda are the seeds of such a development and this is not surprising-they did play a role in Sri Aurobindo's unfoldment of his singular approach(in a subtle sense and after their passing away).The seeds of this are in what Sri ramakrishna says in describing the state of a vijnAni(a fuller experiencing of god).This VijnAna is called Supermind by Sri Aurobindo and the next step in evolution is the manifestation of the supermind on this terrestrial plane and there is nothing 'personal' in this.It definitely looks like a logical progression as sri Aurobindo says-"There is therefore no reason to put a limit to evolutionary possibility by taking our present organization or status of existence as final. The animal is a laboratory in which Nature has worked out man; man may very well be a laboratory in which she wills to work out superman, to disclose the soul as a divine being, to evolve a divine nature."
I do not know what is being referred to as 'criticism' and being honest in that;Sri Aurobindo never criticised Sri Bhagavan;In fact he called Sri Bhagavan as 'the Flaming Tapas of India' and 'spiritual Hercules'.
Self Realization is the fundamental Goal of Sri Aurobindo's yoga as well,but he says that there is more to it than just this.
one(perhaps most!) who finds this all too complicated and made up, and wants what we logically perceive as Plain Truth,one can limit oneself to that.Certainly this makes a lot of sense to do this.It is important that one does not get carried away by 'Big' ideas but genuinely aspire for whatever one feels convinced about,and strive to realize that.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
1. talking of 'passion' etc., was reminded of this verse from a favourite padhigam of mine (first padhigam of tiruvisaippa, the 9th tirumuRai):
{as always, request ravi/ subramanian to give a complete translation} :-)
கோலமே மேலை வானவர் கோவே குணங்குறி இறந்ததோர் குணமே
காலமே கங்கை நாயகா எங்கள் காலகாலா காமநாசா
ஆலமே அமுதுண்டு அம்பலம் செம்பொன் கோயில்கொண்டு ஆடவல் லானே
ஞாலமே தமியேன் நற்றவத் தாயைத் தொண்டனேன் நணுகுமா நணுகே
(part of the 2nd line above says "engaL kAlakAlA kAmanAsA" - our lord who is the vanquisher of death (time) and the destroyer of kAma - in fact, i'd be happy to read it as 'vanquisher of our fear of death' and 'destroyer of our vAsanAs of lust') :-)
2. hearing ravi mentioning tripurasundarI to 'Z.', this beautiful verse (the last verse of the most sweet lalitAsahasranAmam) came to me:
श्रीचक्रराजनिलया श्रीमत् त्रिपिरसुन्दरी |
श्रीशिवा शिवशक्त्यैक्य रूपिणी ललिताम्बिका ||
Ravi,
That clipping about Chalam and his Eeshwara; I did post one more at the same time which probably ended up as spam.There is yet one other page where he felt he was actually misled by Eeshwara about a prediction of a great deluge in late sixties which actually never happened.You can read all that in the last pages of his autobiography.But I did not feel the material(his discussions with his Eeshwara) in them was complete and cohesive nor anything new.So take them with your own caution.
He says he had long and serious debates with Eeshwara on many issues.Would have been nice if he could have recorded them but unfortunately there are only a couple of pages of standard questions in those 3 pages and they too have holes.
I have never read Sri Aurobindo's although I downloaded the entire book set of thousands of pages from his website.I heard about his integral yoga from yourself.Logically speaking Super heavens will have their own level of boredom and ignorance like Eeshawara running after Mohini and Vishnu and Brahma looking for the depth of Shiva or at a lower level Chandra and Indra going after others wives.
A soul looking for eternal happiness is a fool however great that soul is.Ofcourse this unlimited universe has unlimited possibilities for Lila.If one has the appetite for it he should go for it.But the bottomline is there can be no happiness without grief.If you are tired our Rishis have shown us ways to commit suicide.O.K because it is so fearful some Rishis have given it a positive spin as 'Eternal Bliss' and dying to 'Purna Jnaanam'.Others have simply said no dont fall into that trap it is just Dukkha and simply death.Some like the Abrahmamics have given out empty formulas like Heaven and Hell with riddles to the Final Death embedded here and there.
Now things like Shaktha cultures are the same thing with new caricatures and ensuing set of rituals.The need for their origin need to be understood with historical and cultural problems in those times.For eg: Vaikuntha, Kailasha, HariKatha and Jangama; Viraatth Vishnu and Mother Shakthi etc.Thakur also saw Krishna as an European in a European dress in a park.
If he knew about Kanchi Pattu he would have seen Mother Kaali in Kanchi Pattu.Similarily Aurobindo's visualisations based on his knowledge.If he was born a tribal he would have seen her as Mariamma wearing leaves or animal skin and only one; not three.Ramana did n't even know that he was Self-Realized.He thought he was possessed by a benevolent spirit.If any of us would have asked any of the questions of Vedanta he would not have understood and yet he was fully Realized.So rich literature, background,tradition,culture and ritual of religion should be limited to their use.What is the point of discussing Shakthi in one, three and their caricatures , characters down to ritual?If we have patience not three we can describe the same Shakthi as 100 or 1000 or more broad types.First it was one, then became three, then 9 and 16; chatur mukha, pancha mukha; dasa mukha and where is the limit and then the Bombay Ganesh Festival has thousands of different types of Ganesha.It slowly degenerates into superstition and then one day some prophet comes and says; Enough no idols at all or lets limit to Pancha Deva.
In this spirit I did not like the discussion on Sri Aurobindo's discussion on his visualisations of Mother.
-z
z,
You did not like Sri Aurobindo's writing on the Divine mother.This is fine with me.Your reference to mariamma and how had Sri Aurobindo been born as a villager,he would have thought of that form,etc is understandable.
It is interesting when we read his life that right from early age of 6(his mother passed away early)his father wanted to blot out the least vestige of 'indianness'.I Quote:
When Sri Aurobindo was five years old, he was sent to Loretto Convent School at Darjeeling. Two years later, in 1879, Dr. Ghose sent his sons, including Aurobindo who was then only seven, to England, with strict instructions that the young Aurobindo should have a completely Western education and should not even come into the slightest contact with anything Indian. A new chapter in his life had begun.
Sri Aurobindo lived at Manchester with the Rev. and Mrs. Drewett. While his brothers studied at school, he was taught at home by the Rev. Drewett. He developed, very early, a love for poetry, which was to last him throughout his life. Even at that young age of eleven he contributed a few poems to the local "Fox" Magazine.
Mastering Western Culture
In 1884 Sri Aurobindo shifted to London and was admitted to St. Paul's. The headmaster was so pleased with his mastery of Latin that he took it upon himself to teach him Greek. It is here that Sri Aurobindo plunged into the literature of the Western world and studied several languages - French, Italian, Spanish, Greek and Latin, and absorbed the best that Western culture had to offer him....
It was thus that Sri Aurobindo grew, away from his family, away from his motherland, away from his roots and his culture. He knew seven foreign languages but could not speak his own tongue, Bengali. He would not have been able to speak fluently with his own mother...
To comply with the wish of his father, Sri Aurobindo also applied for the ICS while at Cambridge. Here too he did brilliantly. But Sri Aurobindo was not meant to be an ICS officer, serving Her Majesty's Government as one more cog in a giant bureaucratic machine.
Although he had done brilliantly in the ICS - a most sought-after vocation - Sri Aurobindo now, because of his own choice, found himself in London without a job. But destiny intervened. The Gaekwad of Baroda happened to be in London and offered him a place in his service. For long after, the Gaekwad boasted to his friends that he had got an ICS man for Rs.200/- per month.
Thus Sri Aurobindo sailed back to his country in 1893, at the age of twenty-one, having spent the most important and formative fourteen years of his life, in a foreign land. He had grown up in England but did not feel any attachment to it. Now India beckoned him.
-----------------------------------
So it was after he was 21 that destiny or Providence drew him to India and how he learnt sanskrit and quickly grasped all the upanishads,The Vedas is legendary.
I quote:
"Auro Dada used to arrive with two or three trunks and we always thought it would contain costly suits and other luxury items like scents etc. When he opened them I used to look at them and wonder. What is this? A few ordinary clothes and all the rest books and nothing but books! Does Auro Dada like to read all these? We all want to chat and enjoy ourselves in vacations. Does he want to spend even this time in reading these books?
But because he liked this reading it did not mean that he did not join us in our talks and chats and our merry-making. His talk used to be full of wit and humour.
" Sri Aurobindo read the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, Kalidasa, Bhavabhuti, Bankim as well as Homer, Dante, Horace and many others. He also wrote a lot of poetry and his first collection of poems was published from Baroda. "
Continued...
z,
the conditioningof Sri Aurobindo,I mean its absence,continued...
And how did Mother India receive her son after fourteen years of exile? With her unique and price-less gift - a spiritual experience. The moment Sri Aurobindo put his foot down on Indian soil, at Apollo Bunder in (Mumbai)Bombay, a vast peace and calm descended upon him, never to leave him. Unknowingly and unasked the spiritual life had also begun, which was later to become his sole preoccupation. Sri Aurobindo humourously referred to it in one of his letters-saying Nirvana came without even a "May I come in" or "by your leave".So,here like in Sri Bhagavan's case,the experience and development were utterly unpremeditated.Atleast in Sri Bhagavan's case,he had read periyapurAnam,but in Sri Aurobindo's case,he just did not have any sort of hint of things to come before this moment.
If we study how Sri Aurobindo had to go to jail in alipore,how he pursued the sAdhana of The Bhagavad Gita and had the all pervasive experience of Krishna,all these are not possible unless one is extraordinary in some way or other.
Likewise if we study the Life of Mother Mirra,in Faroff France ,she was experiencing a certain Development wherein one Dark coloured one whom she identified as 'Krishna'(Just how!!!)guided her in her spiritual development.She later landed in India ,in pondicherry not because Sri Aurobindo was there!Destiny brought her there and she came to know about Sri Aurobindo and identified him as the 'Krishna'.
All this development,for both Sri Aurobindo and The Mother coming together,is indeed remarkable and cannot be wished away as sheer coincidence.
There is much more,and I have only touched upon some clear evidence of absence of apparent conditioning that lead to Sri Aurobindo pursuing the Integral Yoga.
If we read the lives and Teachings,with sincerity and devotion,we may learn more about these things.Not all can be expected to do this,and more correctly it is only the few who may be drawn to do so.Every Sage draws to him a section of people for whom his teachings have appeal.This is a Providential arrangement and this is how it works.
Namaskar.
Once Sri Aurobindo visited a Kali Temple on the bank of the Narmada. He said:
"With my Europeanised mind I had no faith in image-worship and I hardly believed in the presence of God."
But he was compelled to do so when he looked at the image and saw a living Divine Presence. As he wrote afterwards:
"You stand before a temple of Kali beside a sacred river and see what? - a sculpture, a gracious piece of architecture, but in a moment mysteriously, unexpectedly there is instead a Presence, a Power, a Face that looks into yours, an inner sight in you has regarded the World-Mother."
Ravi,
My friend got back to me about the story of Anandamayi Ma's meeting with the Mother. Apparently I had assumed Aurobindo was there also, but it occurred in 1952, two years after Aurobindo's death.
The basic facts seem to be correct, however. There was a negative incident, and Sri Ma left early, leaving the general impression on both sides of a critical attitude. The details of the negative incident are not made entirely clear in the description on the website you referred to. My friend emailed me the sources of that story which are all pretty similar, but the explanation he got from Sri Ma's devotees is more interesting.
All those awkward exchanges of stares and looking away was all rather odd to me and I couldn't understand what it meant. My friend explained that basically the Mother had this odd habit of engaging in “staring contests” with people, in which she would stare into a person's eyes and see who would break eye-contact first. The idea I gather was that the Mother had this really imposing stare that others “couldn't handle”, and she was in the habit of demonstrating this to people. So when Anandamayi Ma arrived there was at first a rather cordial greeting, exchanging of gifts, etc., and then at some point the Mother launched into her “stare”. Sri Ma apparently found this rather odd and disturbing, and didn't much like the idea of making a contest of some kind out of their meeting. So she looked away. The Mother and her devotees took this as a sign that the Mother had “won” the staring competition. And this created a strange and chilling kind of atmosphere.
The visit was apparently very awkward and rather cold, made all the worse by this staring contest nonsense. Sri Ma left early the next morning, though she'd been scheduled to stay for several days. This was interpreted as an affront by the people at Pondicherry, which it probably was. And apparently this led to a very chilly and resentful relationship between the two ashrams. When my friend arrived on the scene in the early 1970s, there was clearly some bad blood still going on. He never heard anyone at Sri Ma's ashram say anything positive about Aurobindo or the Mother or the Auroville scene. In fact, he recalls people referring to the Mother as “asuric”. And likewise, when he had contact with the Aurobindo people over the years, when someone found out he was a devotee of Anandamayi Ma, it put a real damper on things.
As for Sri Ma, she just laughed off the whole incident. But she never returned to Pondicherry either. Interestingly, on that same trip she had also visited Ramanashram, and had a truly joyous and celebratory time there, even though Ramana had died two years before. My friend said that Sri Ma never commented on people directly, only on practices and teachings, but whenever anyone who ask her about self-enquiry, she would always very enthusiastically approve, and she clearly thought very, very highly of Ramana and his teachings. She never seemed to mention Aurobindo or his teachings, however. Make of that what you will.
Broken Yogi, Could you please differentiate a yogi from the term broken yogi?
Broken Yogi,
I already knew what you are going to say.Please do not ask me how.
Let me say what I had observed when I visited swami chidbahavananda-The Eyes were alwys upturned as if gazing at the point between the Eyebrows,and were rarely blinking.Some sages have this sort of a Fixed Gaze interpreted by the ordinary people as a stare and this cannot be interpreted as a show of force a Street fighter!I have seen such photogrpahs of The Mother with just this Gaze(not stare).If you have seen the Photograph of mahavatar babaji,you will be able to recognize this Gaze.
There are also Great ones like Sri Kapali Sastri who had composed 'Flame of White Light' as a devotional offering to The Mother.
As for the Disciples,not all are enlightened,a majority of them are just that-work in progress-and these carry tales.In many of his letters on Yoga,Sri Aurobindo clearly refers to it in a very explicit manner.Just like Sri Bhagavan said,"Not a crow can fly over the ashram ,etc",in a similiar manner all these limitations were accepted by the Master without condoning it;He always pointed out how these are part of the 'Lower nature' that needs to be transformed by progressively growing in Light.
I have absolutely no problem with your interpretation and if you are happy with that well and good.
Namaskar.
Ravi,
I am very happy and well and good.
Anon,
A yogi would be a genuine spiritual practitioner of some path or other.
A broken yogi is one whose path has fallen apart.
It's kind of like being one of those Humpty-Dumpties of the spiritual world.
Broken Yogi, Remember "all the kings horses and all the Kings men could not put Humpty together again" Just joking, thanks for the explanation.
Friends,
I am posting this letter from Sri Aurobindo for those readers who may be interested in Knowing about the Truth behind these tidbits that unfortunately float around in any place where more than two are gathered!Here is that letter written by Sri Aurobindo to a SAdhak:
"Certainly, I cannot say that the ideas you put forward in this
letter are true. They are errors of the physical mind which seldom gets hold of the real truth of things. It is not a fact that the Mother got displeased and frowned on you every time you wrote about A. That is the kind of thing the Sadhaks are always thinking and saying about the Mother, that she is frowning on them in displeasure for this reason or smiling on them for that, and the reasons they assign are those suggested by their own physical minds, but have nothing to do with anything in the consciousness of the Mother which is not in a constant bubbling of human pleasure and displeasure. I have tried to explain that to the Sadhaks again and again but they prefer to believe that their own minds are infallible and that what I say is untrue. So I will only say that your idea is mistaken.
It is also not a fact that you cannot do Sadhana, for you were doing it for a time and doing it very well. But your physical mind came across and took you outside and is trying to keep you outside instead of allowing you to go and remain within. That is why I have been trying to persuade you to go within and not live in these outside ideas and reactions of the physical being which prevent Sadhana and only give trouble.
It is not a fact that the Mother wants you to be a puppet of A. As regards the work it is not at all clear that all you think is right and all A does is wrong. You speak of your personality and what you seem to say is that A is in the work trying to impose his personality and that you want to affirm yours against it and the Mother ought to have supported you, but she does not regard your personality at all but insists on your subordinating it to A's. But the Mother does not at all look at it from that standpoint or regard anybody's personality. In her view people's personalities which means their ego ought to have no place in the work. It is not your work or A's work, but the Divine work, the Mother's work and it is not to be governed by your ideas or feelings or A's ideas or feelings or B's or C's or D's or anybody else's, but by the vision, perception and will of the Mother which does not express any human personality (if it did there would be no justification for the existence of this Ashram) but proceeds from a deeper consciousness. It has been the great obstacle to the full success and harmony of the work that everybody almost has had this idea of his own personality, ideas, feelings etc. and more or less tried to insist on them — this has been the cause of most of the difficulties and of all the disharmony and quarrel. We want all this to stop; for when it stops altogether then there will be some possibility of the differences and turmoil ceasing and the work will better serve the purpose for which the Mother created it. That is why I have been trying to explain to you about the necessity of subordinating the personality and doing the work for the Divine, not insisting on one's own personality, ego, ideas, feelings as the important thing. There remains the question what is to be the relation between A and yourself in the work — this, as there is no more time today, I will write in another letter."
I have also observed these things in most ashrams in some form or other,and I understand that Human nature is not obliterated by people getting into an ashram and getting initiated by a Guru.It is upto the seeker,us,not to fall a prey to such things and keep our focus on what we came for.
"Attend to what you came for"-Sri Bhagavan.
Namaskar.
Mother or Suddha Maya can come in any form and her sports are not
discernible to human comprehension.
Jada Sakti Jadatmika,
Chaitanya kusumapriya...
Once Kunju Swami brought some persons {he himself did not who they were], to Sri Bhagavan. They were directed by office. The visitors had some hidden agenda of getting support of Sri Bhagavan for their mission.
When they arrived at the Hall, Sri
Bhagavan looked at Kunju Swami and shouted at him for about 15 minutes in Malayalam. The visitors seeing Sri Bhagavan's mood simply left. There was
an eerie silence for some time.
Then Sri Bhagavan told Kunju Swami, in all kindness: Do you think Maya would come only in the form of a woman? Why did you bring them without yourself checking out the purpose? What will you do? You did not know to verify? Sari Sari...alright. Be careful.
Once Annamalai Swami asked Sri Bhagavan: Even though they were
Vaikunta dwara balakas, guards, how come they became demons? Hiranyakshaka and Hiranyakasipu?
Sri Bhagavan said: Like some people,
who are ever here with me, but go into bad practices and ruin themselves.
[SRI RAMANA NINAIVUGAL - ANNAMALAI
SWAMI]
Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni who was affectionately called Nayana used to say that dogs cannot survive long, if they have contact with a person like Sri Bhagavan who is a Jnani.
Therefore, he used to drive away the dogs if they came near Sri Bhagavan. In this connection, Sri Bhagavan said: Yes, he used to drive the dogs away. But there was an exception. A dog called Neela [daughter of Kamala], used to come and always sit on my lap. But she would not allow any other dog, even her own mother, sisters and brothers, to pass beyond the gate of Skandasramam. Nayana used to say - This one has been born as a dog by mistake.
[ BHAGAVAN RAMANA - THE FRIEND OF ALL]
When Sri Bhagavan was living on the Hill, a male pup came to Skandasramam. They named him Segappan because he was red in color. He was a very quiet, peaceful and loving dog. He would never go and fight with any other dog. "He is a Jnani', Sri Bhagavan used to say. He always used to be near Sri Bhagavan during daytime. After evening, he would go back to his house in the town. Sri Bhagavan would sometimes ask him to take the new devotees round the Arunachala Hill and he would take them showing them the important places round the Hill and bring them back to the Asramam.
He used to take his food only twice a day, never eating between the meals. If anybody gave him food he would not touch it. In the evening exactly at 5 O clock, he would come to Sri Bhagavan and touch His feet. Then, Sri Bhagavan would tell the Asramites, "It is 5 O clock. Segappan has to go back to his home. Will you give him his food?" The Asramites would give Segappan his meal. After eating, Segappan would go back to the town to his house, spend the night there, and again would be present in the Asramam, early next morning to be with Sri Bhagavan!
NaayiR kadaiyai iruntha adiyenukku,
ThaayiR chirantha dhayavana tattuvane!
[BHAGAVAN RAMANA - THE FRIEND OF ALL]
When Mother saw the shooting star
on the evening of 14th May 1950, she immediately prostrated towards the direction.+
Please say how shall I realize the
"I". Am I to make the Japa 'Who am I?'
Sri Bhagavan: No japa of the kind is meant.
D: Am I to think 'Who am I?'
Sri B: 'Hold the 'I' thought and find its source.
Inquiry 'Who am I?' means finding the source of the 'I'. When that is found, that which you seek is accomplished.
The above two texts shou8ld leave
no doubt in the mind of the practicant about Sri Bhagavan's use of the inquiry 'Who am I?' It is neither a slogan nor a mantra
but an intense inquiry into one's own nature. That is why this method is called Vichara, Inquiry. Although sometimes He uses the epithet Japa for it, He does not mean it to be a mechanical incantation, but an actual investigation in the real nature of 'I'.
[REFLECTIONS ON TALKS - S.S. COHEN]
"Experience [of the Reality] is temporary or permanent. The first experience is temporary and by concentration it can become permanent. In the former the bondage is not completely destroyed.
It remains and asserts itself in due course. But in the latter it is destroyed root and branch."
This is of considerable significance to those who had an experience of the Self. In the first instance, it distinguishes between the temporary and the permanent experience.
Secondly, it warns them that a bondage will remain round their necks and will cause their rebirth if they discontinue the practice. Bondage asserts itself in due course, if one is not careful to consolidate it into Sahaja. There must be no room for complacency.
[Reflections on Talks - S.S. Cohen]
The highest pradakshina:
“I remain fixed, whereas innumerable universes becoming concepts within my mind, rotate within me.”
Ribhu Gita
A Sadhu who found fault with the conduct of the Asramam manager once lost his patience and was getting ready to indulge in violence. When Sri Bhagavan saw this, He immediately intervened and stopped, with His gracious hands, the Sadhu from pursuing this demonic act. He then pointed out his ignorance with kind advice. He concluded by saying, 'My aim is not to interfere with your freedom. As it appeared that your act was about to exceed all limits of propriety, for the sake of protecting the sannyasa dharma, if not for your own sake, I had to intervene, although such interference is not my nature. I am not giving you any advice. As you are residing here, I am saying all this affectionately. If there is anything good in these words, accept them. Elders have said that even the words of a child should be accepted if there is merit in them.'
In this way, Sri Bhagavan kindly explained Sadhu Dharma through His sweet words and calmed the sadhu. From that day, onwards, the sadhu was totally transformed and became lucky enough to worship Sri Bhagavan as God Himself. Even when Sri Bhagavan was performing the unavoidable duty of stopping the improper act of a sadhu who had taken refuge in Him, the humility he took upon Himself is indeed the very apogee of humility!
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