salutations to all:
the prospect of getting a video recording of annamalai swami's interview made me very happy...so were the many other interesting comments expressed in the past few days...from the posts, i could also guess that most of you (subramanian, arvind, murali, ravi, jupes, a few anonymous'and many others) are very experienced. notwithstanding everything else, since nothing may be a better place than david's blog to discuss about bhagavan's most important teaching, viz., 'vichara' (at least in my humble opinion), i would like to SUGGEST & REQUEST something :
from a strict sadhaka perspective, could we all share as to how exactly we practise self-inquiry? ...by 'practice', i mean every detail that goes into the actual process (both the 'why' and the how')... this way all of us could benefit each other, may be in the best possible way...and wherever we have a doubt/lack of clarity, who better than david to correct or clarify as well as offer the much-required prescription to render our vichara more effective.
let me also add a note that, it seems, at least to me, that we can call ourselves as a devotee of bhagavan if and only if we practise vichara...some of you, or even most of you, may not agree with this last statement of mine because bhagavan also emphasized 'saranagati' or self-surrender... infact, if i am not wrong, i remember david mentioning in one of his long interviews (posted on his site) that only a few among the many who regularly visit ramanasramam actually try to practise vichara as their principal means of sadhana (for a variety of reasons)...yet, as we all know, for bhagavan, the most effective means to 'surrender' too lay through 'vichara'!
(and i really don't understand when people talk of submitting to god's will while thinking & doing their 'own' will most of the time...of course, i don't mean here that saying 'god made me think this way' or 'do this way' is not genuine but don't you think that to mean it 'honestly' requires a very high order of maturity, which is nearly not possible during the better part of this weird journey?)
Sunday, July 20, 2008
An open thread on vichara
One of the comments on the Annamalai Swami film announcement this morning suggested a forum for people to discuss how they do self-enquiry. I think this is a good idea, so I have made a separate post for this which will enable readers to keep track of the discussion.
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556 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 556 Newer› Newest»... Scott Fraundorf ...
Unfortunately I can't answer to your account so moving to read by telling my own experiences - because of my bad English.
I always find this statement in Spiritual Instruction helpful:
2. What are the marks of an earnest disciple (sadsishya)?
Answer: An intense longing for the removal of sorrow and attainment of joy and an intense aversion for all kinds of mundane pleasure.
Doing sadhana means looking into my own mind and soul. In many cases this means suffering because what I can expect to find there is not as delightful as I would like it to have. So in the beginning sadhana apparently not brings bliss but pain. This pain has to be overcome with knowledge, faith, devotion and mental power. The power to withstand comes from the absolute faith into the true meaning of the scriptures or the words of the teachers or from another source (intuition etc.).
One has definitely to know what he/she wants and why. Or: "I know nothing except that I want to be happy within myself - and I will withstand all problems till I reach this goal!"
The pain is (let me say so) as high as the goal is - that means: very high! Sri Ramana said: "No one succeeds without effort. Mind control is not one’s birthright. The successful few owe their success to their perseverance." (Talk 398.)
Scott,
wonderful to read what you have posted.you have truly captured THE PICTURE-Let me explain-I am sure we all would have seen the Advertisements by THE SLIMMING SALOONS!You will be shown a Bulky FIGURE on one side(The LEFT)and a very Attractive streamlined one on the Other side(The Right)-THE BATTLE OF THE BULGE!It is quite the same here except that THE BATTLE IS WITH THE BULGING EGO!YOU HAVE CAPTURED THE LEFT 'PICTURE'beautifully and 'THE REGIMEN' to bring out the right side picture is also there!IMPORTANTLY you have come to the RIGHT SALOON!You are well on course.you seem to have grasped all THE FUNDAMENTALS OF SLIMMING!Just be at it and allow the Grace to help you finish the work.
" but I feel like those are the most hard times to practice Enquiry, at the same time when I feel safe, and like everything is O.K, I also feel a lack of motivation to practice."
This is the LEFT PICTURE-very good measurement!
" One thing that makes me more focused on Enquiry, or desirous of Self-Realization is that my ego is so obviously non-functional in the 'world', that I totally want to be rid of it. If my ego was more functional in the world, I think I would be less motivated."
Yes,YOU ARE EATING LESS FAT and is helpful in slimming.
"Another thing is that Enquiry seems to bring out the disastrous flaws in the ego, and make them even more obvious."
This shows that you are PRACTISING SLIMMING CORRECTLY!TO BE AWARE OF THESE FLAWS COMPLETELY will help to UNDERSTAND AND ELIMINATE THE SAME.
"I am very attached to my ego, to my desires like anybody else, and it takes extraordinary will power to atleast periodically ask "Who am I?" and seek the source as opposed to the mental habits I'm accostomed. "
Goes to show the DEEP ROOTED nature of the attachments.THE NATURE of ATTACHMENT is the same irrespective OF WHAT ONE IS ATTACHED TO!IT WILL CERTAINLY HELP TO HAVE THE 'DEVOTIONAL' SUPPORT-DEVOTION TO BHAGAVAN OR SELF OR GOD-in whatever way your heart has grasped it.THIS WILL SUPPLEMENT/COMPLEMENT self -enquiry,especially in these moments BESIDES GIVING A GREATER MOTIVATION TO DO SELF ENQUIRY.THIS MOTIVATION WILL BE OF A 'POSITIVE KIND' as compared to the other motivation that you have spoken of.
" My desires do not give a sense of hope for their fulfillment. I thought this was a bad thing until I encountered Ramana Maharshi who was the first person I ever read who said that losing hope in the 'world' is good because then you are more likely to seek the source, the Self."
YOU HAVE A TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGE here!YOU NEED TO 'UNDERSTAND' THIS AND NOT SEE THIS AS A 'NEW HOPE' STATEMENT!
I am reminded about the story of a deaf and dumb person who was TRANSFORMED by The Grace of The Guru.This is a beautiful story from THE LIFE OF SRI RAMANUJACHARYA.My master is very fond of narrating this story and particularly to those who feel that they are DISABLED!
Ramanuja had a staunch disciple called KOORESAN-'K' as we will call him was a very Rich man,married with a very devoted wife.He was so inspired by RAMANUJA that he and his wife distributed all their possessions to the poor and decided to SERVE Ramanuja.They were walking to the Sri Perumbudur where Ramanuja lived.It was late evening and it was getting dark and 'K' noticed that his wife was a little nervous.He asked her 'what is it?You seem to be afraid of something!".His wife replied that it was getting late and there may be Robbers in the vicinity."So What!Let them come.We are not carrying any riches.They will examine if we have any possessions and will let us go.That is all "said 'K'.His wife said-"I am carrying your GOLD PLATE.you are so used to taking food on this plate.This is the only possession that I have not brought to your notice".
"Give me the Plate" said K and he took it and just flung it into the wayside lake."Now walk without Fear" said he .They travelled and reached the place where Ramanuja lived.The Great Saint accepted them and allowed them to SERVE him.
'K' used to be the sentry at Ramanuja's home.He will allow visitors only when Ramanuja was free and rested.One day ,a Deaf and Dumb man stood at the door and asked to see Ramanuja through 'SIGN' language.Pain and despair were writ all over his face.'K' was immensely moved and allowed that man to meet Ramanujacharya.The MAN went inside and after saluting the saint told him how miserable he was and how UNJUSTIFIED THAT GOD HAD CAPPED ON HIM this disability.The Saint patiently heard him and quietly told him that the MAN is refering to only HIS PHYSICAL assets and that THERE IS A SPIRITUAL ASSET WHICH IS LIMITLESS AND ACCESSIBLE!He further explained HOW THE SENSES ARE PERPETUALLY ROBBING man from taking possession of THIS ASSET!"GOD HAS BEEN KIND TO YOU THAT HE HAS BLOCKED 2 OF THESE ROBBERS FROM PLUNDERING THIS ASSET",said the saint as he explained what this SPIRITUAL TREASURE is.HE GAVE THIS EXPERIENCE to that miserable man,who was immediately established in TRUTH!When the man took leave and came to the door,'K' noticed THE TRANSFORMATION and was wonderstruck!He knew something has HAPPENED and rushed to Ramanuja who narrated him what happened.'K' was unconsolable-"Had I been born Deaf and Dumb ,I might have had a better chance of receiving my master's Grace!Wretched am I to be what I am!"!'K' was a tremendous scholar and had great Learning and knowledge.
My Master used to add that when 'K' relinquished his Wealth 'The Pride of Wealth' was extinguished.After this incident 'The Pride of Learning' got extinguished and HE BECAME A CELEBRITY and is worshipped today as KOORATHUALWAR!by devotees.
Scott,You are well on course!
Wishing you all the very Best!Please keep up with your postings!I am benefitting immensely by your INTEGITY and EARNESTNESS!
Salutations to you!
I have been doing vichara for about 15 months and it has been wonderfull. Right now I seem to be experiencing some small and large cycles in the vichara. It seems a little like peeling the layers of an onion. I recently have a greater 'feel' for the 'I am' and it is easier and I don't fight thought like I used to. When fighting thought I have occassionally gone into what I consider manolaya, which makes me very drowsy. It's easier now and sometimes I am totally unsure of whether thought is present or not. Sometimes thought feels condensed or has the
'feel' of a stone skipping on water. Very strange. I only know the practice of vichara is 'right' and that the sense of 'I am' seems clearer and stronger, although this also vacillates. I have also noticed an increase in my awareness of my heartbeat, in waking life as well as my sitting periods. When the 'I am' gets weak I just move to the heartbeat for awhile. Anybody had similar experiences?
Great peace,
Steve
Steve,
As the mind grows in awareness,these manifestations may be there-we become more aware of the Body(Perception of the Heart Beat,etc),you may also become more aware of the Breath-you may become aware of a Breath like Lightness enveloping you in which you cannot make out the INSPIRATION and EXPIRATION of the breath,etc.All these indicate that the mind is growing subtle.THAT IS ALL.The ATTENTION shoud not be on these but on the 'I AM' or 'I FEELING'.
When you are doing it correctly,you NEED NOT ASK OTHERS whether you are doing correctly.
Wishing you the Very Best!
Salutations!
Jupes
The only place I've ever seen this is in Sri Ramana Darsanam (by Sadhu Natanananda, ed. by David), in a footnote on p. 128. The footnote is in a section with the poem Atma Gita and the note comes at the end of verses, 88-94.
Here is what the note is in reference to:
'True greatness in the field of good conduct and behavior consists only of becoming one with grace. Everything else is merely paying lip service.'
Then, here is David's footnote:
'That is to say, it is a greater accomplishment for the mind to disappear in the Self than for it to remain separate, even if in its separate state it is highly virtuous. It should be noted that Bhagavan taught that CORRECT AND VIRTUOUS BEHAVIOR IS A CONSEQUENCE OF SELF-REALIZATION, NOT A ROUTE TO IT.' (That is my emphasis, not David's.)
David, I would be interested in knowing where this appears in Bhagavan's teachings, and also, if you could expound on it a little, in relation to what Ravi said about virtue.
* * *
Apologies for the delay in replying to this one. Here are some quotations from Bhagavan on this topic:
First, verse 705 from Guru Vachaka Kovai. The comment below it is Muruganar’s vilakkam (explanatory note):
Since the impartite, non-dual, true jnana alone abides and shines as the refuge for all dharma-observances, the jnani [alone] becomes the one who has observed all the dharmas.
Muruganar: Since non-dual jnana alone shines as the refuge for all the dharmas, the jnani who is established in that state [automatically] becomes the one who has observed all dharmas impeccably. There is no greater dharma than getting firmly established in the Self. All the actions of that jnani who possesses motionless consciousness are actions of God.
The next quote is from Padamalai, p. 134, verse 44:
Bhagavan: Living as the Self is the essence of all dharmas. All other dharmas merge there.
Now back to Guru Vachaka Kovai, verse 332:
Those who have realised the truth are alone the possessors of faultless virtues. Apart from these, everyone else is only base of nature. Hence, he who longs for the fortune of liberation must redeem himself only by resorting to those aforementioned meritorious ones who shine as reality through the knowledge of reality that is devoid of the world-delusion.
Bhagavan slightly amended Muruganar’s original verse, which read, ‘Only true jnanis are the possessors of the faultless virtue of truth’. The word translated as ‘truth’ could also mean ‘great generosity’. This is what Muruganar had to say about this verse:
Muruganar: All the rare virtues automatically seek and reach those who have realised the truth through purity of mind. Hence, in order to emphasise that only they deserve to be called virtuous who are naturally replete with all the noble traits, it has been said ‘Those who have realised the truth are alone the possessors of faultless virtues’. In those people who do not have true jnana, even though they may be extremely virtuous in the external conduct they observe, the ego that is the source of all evil traits remains in their hearts without perishing. Therefore it was said: ‘everyone else is only base of nature.’ While all other things may be obtained from [these unenlightened] people, the knowledge of reality – that which bestows the bliss of peace, the redemption that is free of the mind – can only be obtained from these meritorious ones. Those who are fit to be accepted as Gurus have [thus] been indicated.
In our forthcoming edition of Guru Vachaka Kovai I added this quote from Day by Day to Muruganar’s explanation:
Bhagavan: All good or daivic qualities are included in jnana and all bad asuric qualities are included in ajnana. When jnana comes all ajnana goes and all daivic qualities come automatically. If a man is a jnani he cannot utter a lie or do anything wrong. It is, no doubt, said in some books that one should cultivate one quality after another and thus prepare for ultimate moksha, but for those who follow the jnana or vichara marga [the path of self enquiry], their sadhana is itself quite enough for acquiring all daivic qualities; they need not do anything else.(Day by Day with Bhagavan, 18th July, 1946)
Scott
It is interesting that Bhagavan's teachings resonated with you because you felt that you had a malfunctioning ego. I know two physically-handicapped people who told me that they became devotees of Bhagavan after reading his teachings that one should transcend the 'I am the body' idea.
I have just found the answer to a question I posed myself a few days ago: when the comments pass 200, Blogger starts a new page. That should help people such as Jupes who have slow loading times.
David,
The point on 'virtues'is appreciated in the sense that 'virtue for virtue's sake' is not sufficient.
If Bhagavan did not emphasise 'VIRTUE' in 'HIS TEACHINGS',why did he prevent devotees from injuring or killing scorpions or snakes,when they had entered the Hall?Bhagavan insisted that they SHOULD BE SAFELY REMOVED and let out into the forest?
Why did Bhagavan prevent the Devotees from plucking LEMON FRUIT in the Night time-saying that they are causing HARM to the TREE!
How Bhagavan told Echammal when she came and confessed that she was unable to LAKSHA PATRA Archana(Doing pooja by offering Vilwa Leaves by chaning the name 'Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya')because the VILWA LEAVES were not available-Bhagavan said that SHE SHOULD PINCH HERSELF ONCE whenever she uttered this mantra and COMPLETE THE ARCHANA this way!"But that will BE PAINFUL BHAGAVAN",said Echammal."WELL ,WON'T IT BE THE SAME FOR THE VILWA TREE?THAT YOU SHOULD PLUCK ONE LAKH LEAVES FROM THE TREE!",said Bhagavan.When Echammal told Bhagavan why he kept quiet when she had broached the topic earlier,Bhagavan simply told her-"DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT PLUCKING LEAVES IS PAINFUL TO THE TREE!".
So,it is with the other virtues,Bhagavan simply let every individual to THINK IT OUT FOR himself.When they DID NOT,HE CERTAINLY INTERVENED.
All the Great sages know that Practising virtues is helpful-I KNOW THAT ANNAMALAI SWAMI used to emphasise this-IN ALL HIS LETTERS HE ADDS THIS LINE-LEARN TO SEE EVERYTHING AS THE SELF-BUT AVOID EVIL(THIS NEEDS TO BE PUT IN BOLD LETTERS!!!!!).In TAMIL he says-"KeTTATHAI THALLI VIDU".
We are not comparing whether we are as VIRTUOUS as the GNANIs.THE PRACTICE OF VIRTUE IS for the GNANIS only.
I do agree that PRACISING THE VICHARA correctly will automatically ensure these things.Yet,it cannot be ignored.IT CERTAINLY CANNOT BE 'DEVELOPED' but it CERTAINLY can be 'IMBIBED'.
This is one reason that I always think that one has to learn from what a Great soul LIVED.If we ignore this,we may miss some basics.
Since you have quoted MURUGANAR,please also quote some of his sayings which EMPHASISE practice of Virtue.
Salutations!
david,
Thanks for introducing the split feature for the thread on 'vichara'.It is a great helpfor all who have connectivity problem.
I truly appreciate the sensitivity with which you have been addressing such problems.
Salutations!
Ravi,
The point you have raised is very valid. The only plausible explanation I can think of is this.
Jnanis do not practise virtue. It just is part of every act of theirs.
For the rest of us, practising virtue, at least in the way Bhagavan instructed His devotees, is a way of learning to see the Self in everything.
Maybe it is as simple as us parents telling our children not to do something that they like doing, when we feel that the particular thing might not be beneficial to them. Without really offering them an explanation at that point in time.
Nandu
Scott has written: “ … But when my ego, my I thought, my sense of being an individual, has just led to humiliation, big mistakes, obvious social failure compared to others, there's not a whole lot to be attached to. And when I'm attached it's just longing. My desires do not give a sense of hope for their fulfillment. I thought this was a bad thing until I encountered Ramana Maharshi …”
Way back up this thread, a comment was made about how Vichara leads to ‘pain’. And, in the next few posts was basically discussed how Vichara can lead to ‘pain’ in the sense of withdrawing the mind from the accustomed and attractive objects of the world. In all humility I submit that this ‘pain’ is but the tip of the iceberg.
I had thought of writing the following comments then, but had refrained given the somewhat ‘harsh’ contents. But Scott’s wonderful but sombre words have brought to focus again the true ‘pain’ aspect of Vichara, and one has thought to put down some of my thoughts now, with sincere apologies if the same is hurtful to anyone.
To be a true ‘sadhaka’ is a very serious thing. True Vichara is a very serious thing. To be a devotee of Sri Bhagavan is a very very serious thing. When one 'comes' to Sri Bhagavan and starts doing Vichara in earnest, the Lord of the World will set into motion a chain of events that will destroy the sadhaka’s external and internal world. He does this in His infinite compassion, so as to make the Quest easier and faster for the serious aspirant. This is the true ‘pain’ of Vichara. This is also true Grace.
Every attachment with respect to the world that the sadhaka has will be systematically stripped away. If he has wealth, he will find that his wealth is slowly disappearing; and if not disappearing it will become meaningless to him. If he has a great job, he perhaps will be forced out in what he will consider to be humiliating circumstances. If he is proud of his health, he will find that slowly he is reduced to a state of tottering-about and just about managing. If he has a loving family, the loving family will disappear before his eyes; some members might fight and break away, some will, perhaps, go into the blue yonder.
The Grace ensures that always the ‘corkscrew’ is turned just enough so as to leave the sadhaka with enough to ‘carry on’. He will have enough money as will meet his needs; or enough health to carry on with his doings, or enough family members as is his basic need to survive; the devotee will not be totally ‘wiped-out’.
This is the ‘cooking’ of the sadhaka before he becomes fit food for the Lord to eat. It will carry on till the sadhaka is stripped clean of all attachments and vasanas and is ready for the Lord. In many cases this process will start even before the person has come to Sri Bhagavan. So by the time the aspirant comes to Sri Bhagavan, half of the ‘cooking’ job may already be done. And in some cases the process will start only after the seriousness of the sadhaka is beyond doubt, even though he may consider himself a longstanding and true devotee of Sri Bhagavan.
This is true Grace of the Lord. It is reserved for the real aspirants. And I may emphasize that the above is not just a depressing ‘gloom and doom’ picture being painted by me. It is in fact a cheerful and ‘loving’ attempt to understand and express how the Great Compassion of the Lord works to help the sincere aspirant; and for which no thanks we can give can ever be enough.
The Lord said: “He on whom I am going to bestow My Grace, I solemnly deprive him of all his wealth. When his wealth has gone all his friends, his kith and kin will desert him, making him sink into the utmost sorrow and despair. When his further efforts to gain wealth also fail, thanks to My Will, he becomes filled with dispassion and becomes associated with My devotees. On such a one I bestow My Grace.” [Srimad Bhagavatam (10,88,8-9); taken from the wonderful article “Remembering Mahalakshmi Amma” in the new issue of Mountain Path]
Sri Bhagavan: “It is good if suffering comes to devotees. The dhobi [washerman], when washing clothes, beats them hard against a rock. But he does so only to remove the dirt from the clothes. Similarly, all sufferings are given for the sole purpose of purifying the mind of the devotee. If we are patient, happiness will follow.”[from “Living by the Words of Bhagavan”, Pg 238].
Sri Bhagavan: “(…) the trouble or want of peace comes only because of Grace. You people are glad and grateful to God when things you regard as good come to you. That is right; but you should be equally grateful when things you regard as bad come to you. That is where you fail.”[From “Recollections” by Devaraja Mudaliar, Pg 114].
So when one sees even from afar a serious devotee of Sri Bhagavan one immediately offers him silent, heartfelt namaskars. One knows what he has been going through or will be going through.
Some time back Jupes posted here a piece from Lex Hixon’s writing. It exemplified the ‘pain’ of a sadhaka beautifully. To that I will add some of my favourite Sufi poetry; by Shah Latif who lived in medieval India:
Beloved! Let not Thy knife be sharp but rather blunt,
So that softly and for long Ye may go on
Striking me slowly with it.
That it may cut into twain the bones of my body,
And the delay of Thy performance may make it
Possible for me to enjoy the smart and torture
At Thy hands longer.
If the Beloved would once strike the wound of Love,
I shall not approach the physician for cure,
And shall kiss and tend the wound with love and tenderness.
Scott, you are a true sadhaka. What more can one say ?
arvind,
What you have written may be true for some-but certainly not STANDARD.
Pain is a great teacher but it does not mean that pain is THE WAY.
Circumstances may be anything,but HOW ONE APPROACHES is what matters.
There is simply no bais for what you have said in the vedas or vedanta or any of the OTHER GREAT BOOKS-like the Tirukkural,etc.
The BIBLE has some of these thoughts.
Yes,if we go through the LIVES of GREAT SAINTS,many of them go through this sort of a Life what you have delineated.
My master used to categorically say THAT THIS IS NOT AT ALL NECESSARY.(This is only to just state his view and not quoted as an AUTHORITATIVE statement).
Salutations!
Ravi
I could post pages and pages of quotes and stories from Bhagavan in which he is asking devotees to behave in considerate and socially acceptable ways. What I can't do, though, is give you quotes from Bhagavan that say good behaviour leads to realisation, because I don't know any. I think that Bhagavan taught that good and virtuous behaviour was a desirable end in itself, rather than a route to liberation.
Behaviour and conduct need a 'doer', someone who decides what to do and what not to do. Realisation requires the eradication of the doer through enquiry or surrender. It is not accomplished by choosing one course of action over another.
Meanwhile, here are some do's and don'ts from Bhagavan, taken from the Padamalai chapter on 'Right Attitude, Right Behaviour'. If you want to read more, that chapter is full of such exhortations.
Pride, honour and praise
8 Though respect and honour are esteemed in the world, realise in your heart that they are flawed, and disregard them.
9 Do not get caught up in the pride that causes you to practise deception in your heart. Shine by living an open life.
10 To take pride in boasting about oneself is the mark of an empty and insignificant person, a mere husk.
11 Even if someone praises you, to delight in it with relish is wrong. Only someone who is totally useless speaks in praise of himself.
12 Self-praise, an enemy posing as a friend, will delude one and push one into a dark pit from which it will be difficult to escape.
13 An even more disgraceful fault than feeling pride by speaking in praise of oneself is gossiping about the minor defects of others.
Behaviour towards others
56 In your behaviour keep in mind that it is proper conduct to treat oneself and others in an identical way.
57 When, in the first place, your mind has ceased to be under your control, what is the point of speaking about the inconsistent nature of others?
58 To be afraid, effervescing with frenzied anger, is the very picture of those whose base mind is filled with self-conceit.
59 To go looking for imperfections is the fault of the twisted mind since one’s real nature flourishes as the fullness of consciousness.
60 Do not analyse the objective world saying ‘This is good, this is bad,’ but seek the reality of the one Self that abides within your own Heart.
61 If you manifest love through your mind, speech and body then for your beloved soul there will never be any enmity.
62 Those who desire to become the recipients of God’s grace will not think harmful thoughts about anyone else.
63 Only those who have learned to conduct themselves with a deep respect for the sensibilities of others can be said to have learned civilised behaviour.
64 To err is human, but to forgive others’ faults with love flourishing in the heart is distinguished and godly behaviour.
Ravi said...
david,
Thanks for introducing the split feature for the thread on 'vichara'.It is a great help for all who have connectivity problem.
Not me, it's 'automatic divine activity'. When the comments passed 200, Blogger automatically started a new page. Does anyone know if this is a default number that can be adjusted? And if so, where? I think 50 or 100 comments per page would be better.
David,
Thanks for posting bhagavan's DOs and DONTs.
sorry for posting my response to this elsewhere!
Salutations!
David,
Thanks a lot for the Dos and Donts.
It could not have come at a better time. It felt as if Bhagavan was directly addressing my flaws. Just shows me that there is a long way to go.
Salutations to all!
Ram
I have this dichotomy in my mind about vichara, self-attention and samadhi. The objective is to keep the attention on the self, the "I-thought" unceasingly with one-pointedness. This throughout the day in all activities.
Probably from many years of doing "classic meditation", sitting etc. this is where I see a missing piece in vichara.
Although one is keeping his attention on the self, he doesn't "slip" in samadhi. When I am sitting, for example, self-attention brings an inner peace, calmness, slower breathing etc.
But in all activities, although having the attention on the self, I do not experience this depth.
Am I clear enough?
Nondual,
This is a standard problem with most persons.My master emphasises on the 'Getting rid of the Baggage' through viveka and vairagya ,coupled to vichara.The basic idea behind this is that one tends to be FREE to the extent that he sheds the products of 'I' and 'mine'-in their manifest form-Like anger,Envy,Greed.Each thought and action that is based on these crippling emotions leaves its mark on the mind-what he calls as 'imprint'.Through repetition they get strengthened and keeps the MIND in a state of unrest.This is the reason he lays a great emphasis in rooting out these crippling emotions-by becoming more AWARE in all day to day dealings with others.He thus advocates a TWO PRONGED approach-of ELIMINATION and ENQUIRY-both going hand in hand.This Strengthens the Mind and keeps it in state of Awareness.HE DOES NOT ADVOCATE in setting aside time to sit for any PRACTICE.
This is a sure shot method for working persons and who are leading an active life in the world.Master himself lives such a Life. THIS REQUIRES COMMITMENT and EARNESTNESS.
He lays Great emphasis on maintaining a HELPFUL attitude and EARNING THE BLESSING FROM ONE AND ALL.THIS ATTITUDE IS NEXT ONLY TO SEEING THE SELF IN ONE AND ALL.
we can clearly see that this is not a 'mental virtue' BUT A VITAL LIVING DYNAMIC UPLIFTING FORCE.
This is not at all for socially acceptable behaviour or some obscure moral conduct-BUT A VERY UPLIFTING WAY OF LIVING.
Master says -Give it a try and see if you get results or not.
"A philosophy that does not help you in your day to day living-Drop it in the dustbin"-is his simple rejoinder.
You may visit the website-www.tgnfoundation.org.
Let me just sound you that this is set up by an amateur lay devotee and does not cover the Teachings in a structured manner.Just whatever the person thought as important ,he has projected it.Coupled to it is the TRANSLATION-it is not easy to translate Master's chaste Tamil into English.Ofcourse some of the poems of master feature.It is a mixed bag out there.Yet you may get something.
Salutations!
Greetings to all!
First, I must give a big THANK YOU to Blogger's 'automatic divine activity' for creating this new venue for continuing the vichara thread. It had become a hit or miss proposition for me to get into it and now it seems to be readily accessible. I would, however, agree with David's remark about making the cut-off at 50 or 100 comments, if that's possible.
Secondly, another big thank-you to you, David, for responding to the question about 'correct and virtuous behavior' and then posting the list of Bhagavan's do's and don'ts. It seems that we are all subject to the basic nature of what it is to be an ajnani and that if we wish to aspire to a 'higher' level of conduct then that is our choice. And perhaps the best (and only?) way to do that is through self-enquiry. Since I have witnessed how self-enquiry has altered some of my own behavioral flaws (unlike anything else I've every known), this makes complete sense.
Arvind,
I was deeply touched and humbled as I read your very sobering and, to my mind, truthful comments regarding the hardships and pain that tend to befall the true sadhaka. I was not able to read Scott's comment that prompted your response, since it was (apparently) at the end of the mega-200 comment page, but there've been enough quotes from it on this page that I can get the gist of it.
You also made reference to Clemens' comment from way way back regarding pain during vichara, to which I responded (at that time) that I don't have that experience. However, the way you have put it here, Arvind, which I perceive as different from what Clemens was saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Clemens!), is right on the money, at least from my own experience. In fact, as I was reading what you wrote, each point seemed like it was written exactly for me. (Typical self-centered response, eh?!)
For myself, the screws really started turning in the middle 90s, while I was working with a spiritual teacher one-on-one. Then, around the time I joined the sufi order, in 1999, the cooking reached a new level and I began to see my outer life narrowing dramatically. And then, just before coming to Bhagavan, 3 and a half years ago, things heated up to an all-new level and the outer world seemed to be closing in on me. What you said about losing a good job and feeling humiliated is precisely what happened to me, and only a few months after Bhagavan came into my life. In addition, I have experienced, to some degree, what you said regarding health and family and at times have become so plagued by physical and emotional pain that I can barely function, or I can just do the bare minimum to get by. (In fact, this is partly why I haven't been writing on the blog this past week!)
So, I understand what you're saying, and even if, as Ravi says, this is not something that's 'across the board', I suspect that most sincere aspirants experience at least some of this. I am most appreciative that you have framed this process so clearly and articulately, Arvind, and in a way that helps me put my own life experience in perspective. Thank you, thank you, brother Arvind!
P.S. When I went to post this just now, I was taken back to the original comment page (with 200 comments) and my comment did not post! I will try again and see what happens.
I really like those dos and don'ts of Bagavans. It makes sense to me that virtuous action if it's a resolve to take a certain course of action, is still motivated by by the ego, and a sense of self-conceit.Whereas without an ego, virtuousness will naturally flow from that. At the same time, I like adamalai swami's admonition not to do evil. I also really like Bagavan's focus on not dwelling on teh faults of others, or judging others. How can i? Seeing my own faulty ego. That is something I do alot less, judging others especially since practicing Enquiry. People I would have tended to look down upon or judge, people who I viewed as diabolical. I find myself able to do that alot less. The diabolicalness of my own individuality is so much more obvious, and the desire to transcend that ndividuality so much greater. I also notice that it's easier to even be friends with people who I thought very negatively of. One of my favorite Maharshi quotes responding about the evil people of the world, "All are gurus to us, the wicked by their evil deeds say do not come near me, the good are always good , therefore all are like gurus to us"
scott/Jupes/Friends,
" One of my favorite Maharshi quotes responding about the evil people of the world, "All are gurus to us, the wicked by their evil deeds say do not come near me, the good are always good , therefore all are like gurus to us"
Wonderful scott.You got straight to the essence.This attitude can DO WONDERS!
Jupes,
Your response is figuring in the thread.After posting it does revert back to the list of 200.You will find a link at the bottom to go over to the next set (201 onwards).
We can appreciate how EACH AND EVERY Individual has his/her particular needs/problems-God/self has made arrangements to address these individually.
May bhagavan's Grace be with us!
Salutations!
...clemens, your address is german but do you speak spanish (your name sounds so)...if so, have just begun to learn espanol (no spanish keyboard as yet)...am from india and would simply say 'gracias' to you ...
Thank you. I'm german but I took the name of my colombian wife. Mucha suerte!
...By the way, what do you actually do with the HTML tags? I can see them beneath the comment box but I don't understand how to use them. I know you explained a little but I'm still not getting it. Can you clarify?
For example you can write:
I can see them [i]beneath the comment box[/i] but I [b]don't know how to use[/b] them.
Simply replace [] with <>. You see?
I can see them beneath the comment box but I don't know how to use them.
... However, the way you have put it here, Arvind, which I perceive as different from what Clemens was saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Clemens!) ...
No, it's okay. It is different because we are talking about the same subject from different viewpoints: For some people vichara excludes pain and for me it includes it, thats all.
Vichara in my eyes means a special kind of sadhana - I never heard of people not having pain in sadhana, i.e. in the course of detaching from the ego form of consciousness. As we all know sadhana is not the goal but a vehicle.
By the way and related to "pain" in another sense: Momentarily I am translating the "Gems from Bhagavan" into German, and I found this beautiful passage:
"I used to sit on the floor and lie on the ground. No cloth spread out. That is freedom. The sofa is a bondage. It is jail for me. I am not allowed to sit where and how I please. Is it not bondage? One must be free to do as one pleases and should not be served by others. ‘No want’ is the greatest bliss. It can be realized only by experience. Even an emperor is no match for a man with no wants."
Isn't this moving? Seeing the divine soul and the human soul talking to each other? That was HIS pain. I feel what he felt.
Ramos,
"Isn't this moving? Seeing the divine soul and the human soul talking to each other? That was HIS pain. I feel what he felt."
Wonderful!Salutations to you!This indeed is one of the Best ever that I have read here!This is Bhakti.
You are doing a great job translating bhagavan's words into German.
Wishing you all the very Best.
Dear Scott,
Your post touched me in many ways. One main reason could be that you have put down in all honesty, how desires keep coming up and how sometimes they assume more power than something as patently liberating as Self Enquiry.
I have and still go through all the struggles that you have mentioned.
I was doing SE pretty okay til around five years ago, whenI suddenly thought I had mastered it!!! So I started out trying to read instead of practise.
I would use SE, like you mentioned, only in situations where I needed help - like a medicine, so to speak. And soon, I found that I had forgotten how to do it, and that it had become a mere mental exercise.
It's only in the past few months that by speaking to people and listening to advice of those farther ahead on the path that I have managed to get back into doing it right.
My advice (or two bits) is that please do not use it in specific situations.
As Bhagavan said, regular meditation (SE) sets up a current that lasts through the day.
And in case SE gets too tedious ( it does sometimes for people like me), do go through Bhagavan's advice to Kunju Swami - in one of 'The Power Of The Presence' books, where He asks Swami to alternate between various things to keep the mind one-pointed.
Love,
Nandu
Ravi
I took a woman to see Saradamma in the late 1990s
At one point Saradamma said, 'Your prarabdha is your prasad from God. How you deal with it is your sadhana.'
I like this because I have always regarded life as a gift from God, not a punishment or a school for mastering certain lessons. Part of my sadhana is to remember to say 'thank you' to God for everything that manifests in my life.
David,
"I took a woman to see Saradamma in the late 1990s
At one point Saradamma said, 'Your prarabdha is your prasad from God. How you deal with it is your sadhana.'
I like this because I have always regarded life as a gift from God, not a punishment or a school for mastering certain lessons. Part of my sadhana is to remember to say 'thank you' to God for everything that manifests in my life."
Wonderful David.I also noted your 'Talking to Bhagavan'-THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF PRACTICE!
All your ACTIVITIES LIKE PUBLISHING,THIS BLOG are also OFFERINGS!I noted how you said (when 'Anonymous'mentioned about the DVDs and his apprehension that they may not be sold)-THEY ARE MY OFFERING TO ARUNACHALA!Your Guru Bhakti and devotion to Arunachala are a source of Great inspiration to me!ABOVE ALL THE SUCCESSFUL MANNER YOU KEEP EVERYTHING WRAPPED UP is a trick that I need to learn.
My reference to this 'PRARABDA' in the SEVEN PLANES thread is only to say-THAT A LOT IS BUNDLED IN THERE!This is another way of Bhagavan AVOIDING speaking on something that He feels is unnecessary!ALL I HAVE MEANT IS THAT WE SHOULD NOT GET HOODWINKED by such innocuous statements of Bhagavan!IT(PRARABDA) JUST MEANS THAT BHAGAVAN IS PUTTING A FULL STOP!(without using his Brahmastra!)Rather than taking it as some EFFORT OR FRUIT OF SOME EFFORT in the past,it s better to just accept it as a Gift from God in the PRESENT LIFE ITSELF!This is that much simpler and more like touching the nose in a short and straight manner!
You have had the unique Privilege and Blessing in being associated with Great Devotees of Sri Bhagavan and serving them.In interacting with you,I hope a little of that will rub in.
Sri Ramakrishna used to say-'When the Malaya breeze blows,even ordinary Trees smell like sandalwood!"
Salutations to you!
May Bhagavan's Blessings inspire and continue to be with you in all your labour of LOVE!
Jupes, obviously you are an advanced sadhaka, and a very special person besides. I will be presumptuous and take it as a promise from you that you will not ‘blank’ out again like you have mentioned. Remember, sadhaka to sadhaka, a solemn promise is a solemn promise. Even if you are not posting here, we will assume all is well with you. Would love to hear, sometime, when you feel you can talk about it, why you dropped your one-on-one teacher and subsequently, the Sufi group.
--------------------------------
David, really look forward to the new GVK. Will you also put up copies for distribution in the ‘Sri Ramana Kendra’, here in New Delhi ?
Arvind
David, really look forward to the new GVK. Will you also put up copies for distribution in the ‘Sri Ramana Kendra’, here in New Delhi?
I leave it to the Ramanasramam Book Depot to distribute my Bhagavan books to the various Ramana Kendras in India. If you want to see copies there, you should make sure that whoever orders the books for the centre knows about its existence. I will be emailing everyone on my mailing list when the book is available, so the news should reach those in charge of the kendra.
I came across an interesting quote on pain, which seemed to go well with what Ramos is saying:
Bhagavan: "The mind which was hitherto operating through the nadis to sense external objects and thus maintaining a link between itself and the organs of perception is now required to withdraw from the link and this action of withdrawal naturally causes a strain, a sprain or a snap attendant with pain, which people term disease and perhaps tests by God.
All these would go, if you would but continue your meditation bestowing your thought solely on understanding your Self or on Self Realisation.
There is no greater remedy than this continuous yoga with God or Atman.
There cannot be but pain as a result of your discarding your long acquired Vasanas."
P.35 Crumbs From His Table by Ramananda Swarnagiri
Arvind,
What I do to get a book from Ramanasramam is to tell the Ramana Kendra here about the book (I live in the NCR and am a regular at the Kendra).
And rest assured, it will come.
After Padamalai, I cannot wait to get my hands on the GVK.
Ramprax, ... here cannot be but pain as a result of your discarding your long acquired Vasanas."...
Thats true, and it was meant too.
But there is another pain - the pain of love. It never vanishes.
"As a matter of fact, in the quest method — which is more correctly ‘Whence am I?’ and not merely ‘Who am I?’ — we are not simply trying to eliminate, saying ‘We are not the body, nor the senses and so on’, ..."
Gems from Bhagavan
This "Whence am I" ... this is truly the first time I notice this.. and I thought being a good knower of Bhagavans teachings...
David & Nandu,
Thanks for the heads-up. Will have a word with the Secy or someone in the Kendra here to watch out for the book.
Clemens,
Thank you for clarifying about the html tags (I think I 'get it' now!). And, more importantly, thank you for that beautiful example of how you are affected by pain. That you feel what Bhagavan felt and are so moved by Bhagavan's experience is deeply moving in itself. I especially like the way you said: Seeing the divine soul and the human soul talking to each other? What an incredible image that is. Thank you for your great sensitivity and passion. It is inspiring.
Nandu,
Your story is very interesting and I appreciate that you have told it. One more example of what works and doesn't work in doing vichara. We all can benefit from hearing this.
Arvind,
Thank you for your kind words and for wishing me to not 'blank out' (!) again. I cannot promise I will be writing as regularly as some of you, but please know that I am watching and listening even when you don't hear from me. And yes, you can assume I am well, in any event. Very kind of you to say so.
David said...
I took a woman to see Saradamma in the late 1990s.
At one point Saradamma said, 'Your prarabdha is your prasad from God. How you deal with it is your sadhana.'
I like this because I have always regarded life as a gift from God, not a punishment or a school for mastering certain lessons. Part of my sadhana is to remember to say 'thank you' to God for everything that manifests in my life.
David, in my opinion it is a blessing (if blessings there are!) to regard life as a gift from God and to have such a positive and embracing attitude towards it. I know we all come into this world with different past and current life circumstances, and yours (or perhaps something else) have somehow placed you squarely in gratitude towards everything that comes your way. It is no wonder that you do what you do and are able to give so fully as you always seem to do. And, as you regard your own life as a gift from God, so too are YOU a gift from God to all of us and to the world at large. Thank you, David, for extending yourself so warmly to everyone.
Best regards to ALL!
It has been my good fortune to suddenly (although temporarily!) have access to the first 200 comments on this thread and to read Scott's very revealing and moving comment that ends that page. Scott, thank you for that wonderful post! You say that you use vichara to cope with feelings of danger in times of panic anxiety and how you are less motivated to do vichara when things are feeling ok. You also mention that you are more desirous of Self-realization because your ego is non-functional in the world and that you want to be totally rid of it.
This makes me think of what someone said (David perhaps?) about the importance of having Self-realization as a goal if one is practicing vichara. Since I myself do not have that goal I wonder if this is a problem. ?? My own anxiety stems from PTSD related to early childhood trauma (being spanked and punished for my maverick ways). Vichara helps me be calmer, less nervous, and to have a modicum of inner peace. That is enough for me. Self-realization would be a magnificent icing on the cake, but it seems so out of reach that I don't even set it as a goal.
Sometimes when I say 'I'-'I' I go immediately into anxiety instead of feeling calmer. My heart begins to race and it feels like the movement towards vichara is running into a brick wall. Does this ever happen to anyone else?
Arvind, you asked about why I dropped my one-on-one teacher and also, later on, the Sufi group. The teacher I was with in the 90s was teaching from a 'new age' perspective and I worked with him off and on for several years. For most of that time I was very into the teachings and felt like I was moving in a positive, worthwhile way. Towards the end I began to sense that I was 'outgrowing' the teachings and it seemed best to just move on. It was an easy transition for both of us.
The sufi break was another matter. The situation that brought that to an end occurred right around the time of the 9/11 attacks on the U.S. and involved some differences between myself and the leader of our local circle. There had been a rising tension between us for a several weeks and, at a gathering where we were praying for victims of the attacks, the leader jumped all over me for speaking outloud instead of remaining quiet. In essence I was verbally 'spanked' and this triggered a PTSD response in me. She did this in front of other dervishes and I was deeply hurt and humiliated, so much so that I just couldn't go back. I did try several times, and she and I worked out some of our differences. But the bottom line was that I just couldn't do it anymore. The wind had been knocked completely out of my sails.
So, that's that. Typically, after leaving personal responses on the blog, like this one, I tend to feel ashamed and weird after I post them. More than likely that will happen with this one as well. I try my best to feel 'normal' but usually end up feeling very 'abnormal'.
Friends,
I have been wishing to share a few things I have learnt from my Master-some of this may be kindergarden variety and may not be considered a 'ROUTE TO SELF REALIZATION'.We are seeking the 'SELF';that is okay.WE ALSO WANT TO BE HAPPY AND JOYOUS IN OUR DAY TO DAY LIFE-and handling 'Thoughts' is very vital for this.In SELF ENQUIRY ,we want to get rid of them!Here we want to DEPLOY them.(Actually both are the same as MIND is ultimately nothing but the SELF!)
1.There is a Link between ACTION (in thought ,word or deed)and Result.As you sow,so you reap.BE CAREFUL IN WHAT YOU SOW!
2.The GOOD(pleasure) and BAD(pain)come not FROM the other person,but THROUGH the other person-This simple TRUTH has been doing me a lot of good in very trying situations,dealing with very 'so called unreasonable'people.Master used to give concrete examples:Imagine this scenario-You behave unreasonably with your wife or Mother.You go to office and face a 'unreasonable'charge from your boss!MANY A TIME THIS WILL HAPPEN and we never notice this.
MASTER asks us to OBSERVE this -WHAT YOU THROW OUT GETS BACK TO YOU.
3.IT FOLLOWS from above-that if we do GOOD(A kind word,A Kind Thought is all that is required),THE SAME GETS BACK TO US AMPLIFIED MANY TIMES!
4.Master thus emphasises 'THOUGHT CULTURE'-Guard your thoughts!Do not NURSE negative thoughts that will only bring in misery.Send out POSITIVE thoughts of BLESSING!Ex:1.'A child is crossing a road'-SEND OUT A BLESSING THAT IT SHOULD REACH SCHOOL SAFELY.
2.YOU SEE A YOUNG COUPLE ON A BIKE-"SEND OUT A BLESSING!MAY THEY LIVE HAPPILY TOGETHER HARMONIOUSLY!"
3.You See a Vegetable vendor carrying vegetables-SEND OUT A BLESSING-"MAY PEOPLE GET HEALTHY EATING THESE VEGETABLES"
4.AN OFFICE COLLEAGUE is tensed with work-See if you can help him or atleast say a few words to cheer him.
5.DO NOT USE OFFICE STATIONERY OR BELONGINGS for your personal use.
6.Help a neighbour's child in his/her studies if you can.
I have just taken a few samples.
BLESSINGS AND CURSES are very much CONCRETE things.They affect the sender and the receiver.
Master says-WHEN YOU STEP ONTO THE ROAD enroute to office,REMEMBER THAT "YOU" ARE THE INTRUDER not others who are already on the Road.IF THERE IS A ROAD BLOCK,do not blame others!YOU CHOSE TO TRAVEL in your car.YOU Need to be prepared;The onus is on YOU And YOU Alone.
These teachings have benefitted me more than reading the scriptues,etc.They helped to lay the foundations and I find that the rest is easy.
Thanks for putting up with this stuff!
Salutations!
Jupes,
Thank you for sharing with us your experiences with your previous teachers and PTSD. I can understand how difficult and painful this would be.
Sometimes when you toss your inner torments out into the open, they get tossed-out for good ! Hope this is how it is for you.
best wishes
PS: You have mentioned:
“Sometimes when I say 'I'-'I' I go immediately into anxiety instead of feeling calmer. My heart begins to race and it feels like the movement towards vichara is running into a brick wall. Does this ever happen to anyone else?”
Well Sri Bhagavan said something about this !
83. The disturbing agitation of mind that occurs when one attempts to get firmly established in sadhana is a normal occurrence that is prompted by the rising of vasanas.
84. If at that time you hold tightly to the power of the grace of the parashakti that has possessed you, the vasana that agitates your mind and distresses you will be completely destroyed.
[From ‘Padamalai’, Pg 247]
Arvind, thank you so much for your kind comment and for the verses from Padamalai. One quick question: Can you tell me the meaning of the word 'parashakti'? If I am able to understand that then maybe I can put this teaching to good use.
Blessings to you, Arvind!
Jupes,
Apologies, in that I forgot that some words may be new to you.
Well, let me give you a literal meaning first. Forgive me if some of the terms are already familiar to you and thus repetitive.
‘Para’ refers to the highest in any set of categories. Actually it means that category, which is beyond (and inclusive as well) of all the other categories in that set. In effect it means the ‘Source’ of all the categories, and thus the Supreme. Thus the word is used in scripture as a sort of prefix to denote that which is the Highest, Beyond all categories, the Source, and the Supreme.
‘Sakti’ literally means ‘Power’. It is a term used for the ‘active principle’ of the inactive, ripple-less, still, Brahman or the Self. So if the Brahman or the Self is represented by Siva, then in religious symbology, His ‘active principle’ or ‘Sakti’ will be His consort – Mother Parvati. But if we consider any form, including that of Siva, to be the initial movement in the still, vast expanse of the Self, then ‘Sakti’ will refer to That and Him as well.
So the term ‘Parasakti’ literally means the ‘Highest Active Power’. It means if we take the Self as the vast, still expanse of Consciousness, then Its ‘active Power’ that creates and functions in the world, is ‘Parasakti’.
Needless to say, tomes have been written on the above, which is just a brief gist of the theory behind the terms.
For our purpose, in the context of the Padamalai verse, ‘Parasakti’ would mean that non-form or form, of the Self or the Lord as you will, that you have taken as your ‘favourite’. If you believe in just the ‘Self’ then it means the ‘Self’. If you believe in Siva, or Krishna, or Mata Durga, or Jesus Christ, or Allah so be it. Or if you believe totally in Sri Bhagavan then He is the ‘Parashakti’ for you. The idea then is to fiercely hang-on to your ‘sense’ of Sri Bhagavan and His Grace and have the complete faith that He is there to help you and see you through.
This is a ‘devotees’ explanation.
David has given explanatory editorial comments on various verses in the Padamalai. For this one, he has mentioned Sri Muruganar’s uncompromising and pure ‘Jnana’ viewpoint. David has written, “‘The power of the grace of the parasakti that has possessed you’ is a reference to the inner feeling of ‘I am’ since this feeling is often referred to in Muruganar’s writings as ‘tiruvarul’, the divine grace that will lead one to the Self”.
I have mentioned the ‘devotees’ viewpoint and what I think is the practical way, because ‘holding on to the inner feeling of I-am’ is what led to the “disturbing agitation of the mind” in the first place.
best wishes
Arvind,
"I have mentioned the ‘devotees’ viewpoint and what I think is the practical way, because ‘holding on to the inner feeling of I-am’ is what led to the “disturbing agitation of the mind” in the first place."
Very valid point Arvind.As the devotion intensifies it will eventually reach the point that Muruganar had intended.IT CANNOT BE PREMATURELY ASSUMED AND INSISTED UPON.
Jupes,
Wishing you the very Best.
Salutations!
Arvind,
Your generosity and kindness have brought me to tears, a great blessing for someone who rarely cries.
Thank you for this explanation of 'parasakti'. By way of clarification, are you saying that when I'm feeling anxious during vichara, instead of holding on to the 'I am' feeling I should be holding on to a sense of Bhagavan and His Grace (or whatever my chosen parasakti is)? I think this is what you're saying and what Ravi was reiterating, but I want to make sure. Then, I assume, when my mind is feeling calmer I can revert back to the 'I am' feeling. Is this correct?
I so appreciate your taking the time to help, Arvind, and you also, Ravi. Surely Bhagavan is guiding you and smiling upon you both.
Regards to everyone.
Ravi,
Bon Jour ! Truly you are great advocate of bhakti ! And one has to be careful in the use of words like Devotion and Jnana around you lest you pounce on them ! But what I mentioned to Jupes was not about any doctrinal aspects of Devotion vs. Jnana at all. In Sri Bhagavan’s teachings there is absolutely no conflict between Jnana and Devotion. One simply flows into the other.
And so I have to clarify further:
Si Bhagavan has said in the Padamalai verse that agitations in the mind can arise during sadhana. Any sadhana. This is due to the churning of vasanas. We should then hold on to the power of the grace of the Parashakti that has possessed us, and the agitations will go away.
For those of us who practice Sri Bhagavan’s (Jnana) Vichara teachings, the sadhana would be the process of trying to abide in/as the Self, by fierce attention to the feeling of ‘I’-‘I’ within, to the exclusion of all thoughts.
Then, a way to hold on to the ‘grace of the power of Parashakti’ could be an even greater and stronger attempt to hold on to the ‘I’. Which is a tough proposition in practical terms, because this holding on to the ‘I’ itself caused the mind to get disturbed in the first place. Then an easier way is to firmly hang-on to the ‘sense’ of Sri Bhagavan and His Grace (or your own ‘favourite’ form of the Lord) and have the firm belief that He is watching over you and will see you through. He will see you through not only with respect to your present mental agitation, but will see you ‘through’ - right through your life. This devotion-filled-practice has the effect of calming the mind down.
Once the ‘disturbing agitation’ has subsided, then you resume your Vichara practice as before. Each time, one would find that the disturbing agitations are rising less and less and with reduced frequency; and over a period of time would go away completely.
That is all that there is to it.
Au Revoir
Jupes,
Oops ! My post to Ravi crossed yours. But yes, you've said exactly what I was trying to convey.
best wishes
Arvind,
Thanks for your Greetings in French!My mother tongue is Tamil.
Yes,my natural preference is the Bhakti approach.That is what connects me to a deeper 'I' as otherwise the thought holding to the superficial 'I'may give some peace.I DISCOVER MY DEPTHS IN BHAKTI.The Vichara does not take me to those depths.I AM BOT USING BHAKTI AS A METHOD,yes I am using VICHARA as a USEFUL TOOL.
I understand that for different persons this 'mix' will work differently.For people who ARE OF THE INTELLECTUAL kind,may be Bhakti will be a supporting element-LIKE PAUL BRUNTON.
THE KEY ELEMENT IS TO SOMEHOW REACH THE DEPTHS OF ONESELF-whatever be the way.
As Vivekananda says so comprehensively-"'Each soul is potentially divine . The goal is to manifest this divinity within by controlling nature , external and internal. Do this either by work , or worship or psychic control or philosophy - by one or more or all of these and be free'."
Bhagavan has said this in his upadesa saram -ABIDING IN THE SOURCE IS BHAKTI GNANA YOGA AND KARMA.THIS IS THE CULMINATIONOF ALL SPIRITUAL PRACTICE.Yet what is one to do before this.THIS IS WHERE SWAMI VIVEKANANDA's saying is positioned.THIS IS THE INTEGRAL APPROACH.NO ONE ELSE HAS SAID THIS SO COMPREHENSIVELY IN THIS SIMPLE FASHION.
You would have seen that I am not an EXCLUSIVE DEVOTEE of 'BHAGAVAN'.
This is one question that I frequently encounter-when I go to sai baba temple,I would be asked-"Oh!You are a SAI devotee?",when I go to Sri Ramakrishna Mutt,some lay devotee will ask me -"so you are a RAMAKRISHNA devotee",the same with Sri aurobindo Ashram,etc.I TELL THEM -No,I am not a SAI devotee:NO ,I am not a RAMAKRISHNA devotee,NO I am not a AUROBINDO devotee,No I am not a Ramana devotee.I tell them I am just a devotee.
IT IS THUS AS A DEVOTEE that I am participating here.Yes,I LOVE SRI RAMAKRISHNA and SRI Bhagavan.
Kindly go through the other post addressed to Ramos and Broken Yogi to get more of this.
Namaskars to you!
Arvind,
Thank you for further clarifying on this sadhana. I was able to use it today with some success, I am happy to say. I am really quite impressed with your ability to state things so clearly and articulately and to draw what you need from the vast amounts of available literature. I wonder if you are a teacher in your profession. (Not trying to be snoopy--just noting how you are!) In any case, you are a teacher on this blog, and I have great respect for you. Was thunderstruck by your piece on the Power to Enlighten thread. Quite magnificent really. Thank you for THAT clarification as well.
I am also impressed with the way people dive into these discussions. Personally, I feel that I have no authority to do anything besides ask questions and speak from my very limited experience, and that's ok. I am content to read what others have to say.
Thanks to everyone for all the energy you put into this blog !
P.S. to Clemens: So sorry you're signing off. I've very much enjoyed reading what you've had to say and will miss your presence here. Maybe you'll change your mind and come back??
Arvind,
"I AM BOT USING BHAKTI AS A METHOD,yes I am using VICHARA as a USEFUL TOOL."
sorry for this typo.Pl read this as -I am not using Bhakti as a METHOD,yes I am using VICHARA as a useful TOOL".
Namaskar!
Greetings Ravi!
Very interested in what you said about Bhakti being your natural approach to sadhana and how that takes you deeper than vichara. Also, that 'the key element is to somehow reach the depths of oneself - whatever be the way.'
I wonder if you'd be willing to say more about your Bhakti approach and what specifically takes you to the depths of yourself. Excuse me if this is too personal, and don't talk about it if you don't want to. However, I am truly interested and anything you can offer will be appreciated.
Many thanks!
Jupes,
Truly appreciate your deep thirst!Namaskar!
I will certainly give you a more detailed reply a little later-I have to USE THE PROPER WORDS as otherwise it will not give you a clear picture.
It is easier to find words to express the INTELLECT.
The simple FACT is there is no HOW and WHY in LOVE.I am sure you will understand this.in love and surrendering we are giving ourselves WHOLLY-not in parts.WE REMAIN INTEGRATED-RESTORED.you already know it.
More little later.
Wishing you the very Best!
Salutations!
David,
You mentioned that you always imagine Bhagavan beside you, talk to him, tell him everything. This is a practice which, out of sheer necessity, I started doing just a couple of days back and I am stuck that I read it today from your reply!! I have a few queries
1. I started this practice because of the constant worries which are bombarding me. I tried to "go back to the feeling of I" whenever worries come but it is so weak. Instead, I found that if I imagine Bhagavan next to me and I tell my worries to him, it relieves me abit. Currently, I know that I am trying to imagine. As I go on practicing this, how does it evolve? Will I reach a stage where I actually feel Bhagavan beside me as my succor and refuge? What is your's (or anyone else who practiced this for a few years) experience?
2. Any other practices which you recommend which will lessen worries and increase the sense of utter dependency on Bhagavan? I am finding that our attachment to things is simply overwhelming and I sometimes am totally lost and become desparate.
Regards Murali
Thank you, Ravi! Take your time and say it how you want to say it. I look forward to its arrival here, whenever that is and in whatever form.
Good night!
Jupes,
I will come to the topic of Bhakti later-I will request you to download the pdf verson of 'Letters from Sri Ramanashram'-by Suri Nagamma.
This is available from the ashram link:
http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/booksfordownlaod.html
I hope your limited connectivity will permit this.
I will request you to read this book at your pace.THIS WILL HELP ME TO EXPLAIN myself better and for you to piece together any deficiency in my delivery.
THIS BOOK WILL HELP YOU TO FEEL THE PRESENCE OF BHAGAVAN.
I know that you have not visted Sri Ramanashramam and that you are not presently in a position to visit.
I will place the following query for your kind consideration:
1.IS IT POSSIBLE TO LOVE SOMEONE WITHOUT KNOWING HIM OR HER OR IT?
2.IS IT POSSIBLE TO KNOW SOMEONE WITHOUT LOVING HIM OR HER OR IT?
Wishing you the very Best!
Salutations!
Jupes/Friends,
It will be a good idea to give you a TASTE of what to expect from THE LETTERS FROM SRI RAMANASHRAMAM-These letters were written by Suri Nagamma to her brother D S SAstri who lived in Chennai.Since Sastri could not travel to Ramanashramam frequently and was keen to know WHAT BHAGAVAN SAID AND DID,he had requested his sister to write THESE LETTERS.WHAT LETTERS THESE WERE!They are obviously blessed by Sri Bhagavan who knew that there WILL BE PERSONS who may not be able to be in his Glorious physical presence-Limitations of Space and Time.THIS WORK MEETS THIS REQUIREMENT.Here is the opening chapter:
LETTERS FROM
SRI RAMANASRAMAM
(TRANSLATED FROM TELUGU)
21st November, 1945
(1) THE SON IS BEHOLDEN
TO THE FATHER
Brother, you have asked me to write to you from time
to time whatever striking happens in Sri Bhagavan’s
presence and what Sri Bhagavan says on such occasions.
But am I capable of doing so? Anyway, I will make an
attempt and am beginning this very day. The attempt will
succeed only if Bhagavan’s Grace is on it.
The day before yesterday being full moon, the usual
Deepotsava (festival of lights) was celebrated on a grand scale.
This morning Sri Arunachaleswarar started for giri pradakshina
(going round the hill) with the usual retinue and devotees
and accompaniment of music. By the time the procession
reached the Ashram gate, Sri Niranjanananda Swami (the
Sarvadhikari) came out with Ashram devotees, offered coconuts
and camphor to Sri Arunachaleswarar, and paid homage when
the procession was stopped and the priests performed arati
(waving of the lights) to the God. Just then Sri Bhagavan
happened to be going towards the Gosala (cowshed) and seeing
the grandeur he sat down on the pial near the tap by the side
of the book depot. The arati plate offered to Arunachaleswarar
was brought to Bhagavan by Ashram devotees and Sri
Bhagavan took a little Vibhuti (holy ashes) and applied it to his
forehead, saying in an undertone “Appakku Pillai Adakkam”
(The son is beholden to the father). His voice seemed choked
with emotion as he spoke. The expression on his face proved
the ancient saying “bhakti poornathaya Jnanam” (the culmination
of devotion is knowledge). Sri Bhagavan is Lord Siva’s son.
Sri Ganapati Muni’s saying that he is Skanda incarnate, was
confirmed. It struck us that Bhagavan was teaching us that
since all creatures are the children of Ishwara, even a Jnani
should be beholden to Ishwara.
We can never tell how pregnant with meaning are the
words of Mahatmas. You ask me to write somehow, but how
can I convey the exquisite beauty of his utterances? How
can I describe adequately? I wrote in a recent poem that
every word that falls from his lips is scripture. Why talk of
his words alone? If one has the ability to understand, his
very gaze and gait, his action and inaction, inhaling and
exhaling — everything about him is full of meaning. Have I
the capacity to understand and interpret all this? With full
faith in Sri Bhagavan’s grace, I shall write to you whatever
occurs to me, serving Sri Bhagavan with the devotion of the
squirrel to Sri Rama.
SISTER
-----------------------------------
Please note the lines-“Appakku Pillai Adakkam”
(The son is beholden to the father). WHO IS SAYING THIS?IS IT BHAGAVAN?Does it sound Sri Ramakrishna TALKING ABOUT 'MOTHER'.
Ramos,
Here is what you said!
Salutations!
Murali
As Bhagavan has remarked, you have to begin with partial surrender. No one can surrender everything all at once. If you surrender one small problem to Bhagavan and subsequently discover he has resolved it satisfactorily, you will then have the courage and the belief to hand over a bigger one. That's how it worked for me. Nowadays, I have no problem handing over my problems to Bhagavan because I know from experience that he is far better at resolving them than I am. Nothing is too big and nothing is too small to mention.
A few years ago Venkatasubramanian and I translated Sri Ramana Darsanam and gave it to Sri Ramanasramam for publication. A week or so later I happened to be in the ashram office, checking on my mail, when I saw a copy of the proofs lying on someone's desk. I went through it and discovered that our version, which we had spent months preparing, had been massively and badly edited. We had not been consulted about any of the changes. Translations of quotations had been changed, footnotes had been changed, sentences edited to the point where they no longer made any sense, and so on. I borrowed the print out and showed it to Venkatasubramanian. I then asked him to come with me to the president to tell him that he couldn't publish the book in this condition because too many mistakes had been incorporated at the editing and page-making stage.
He said he didn't want to come with me.
'We have given it to the ashram to publish. It's not our job to complain now,' he said.
That was real surrender because I knew from experience what an obsessive perfectionist he is. We have many times spent a whole afternoon discussing one word or the placement of a comma.
Several people had been involved in the changes, and the problem was they hadn't communicated with each other or done a thorough job. One person, for example, had decided that 'jiva' should be spelled 'jeeva', but he had only made changes on half a dozen pages. The rest remained with the original spellings. Other people had made other stylistic changes to a few pages of the book and the left the rest as it was.
I decided to go alone to the president to ask him not to print the book in that condition, but first I decided to tell Bhagavan about it.
As I was walking to the samadhi hall, I saw Nannagaru walking the other way. Nowadays, if he is anywhere outside in the vicinity of the ashram, he is surrounded by about a hundred people. On that day he was alone. He saw me, ran up to me, gave me a big hug and called out my name several times. He had never done that before, and he has never done it since. I took that to be a good sign.
I walked around the samadhi, told Bhagavan what had happened and informed him that I was going to talk to the president about all the errors that had been introduced into the book.
Before I went to the office I sat quietly for a few minutes with my eyes closed near the front of the samadhi hall. When I opened them, there was a plate of chocolate chip cookies in front of me, and no one else in sight. That had definitely not happened to me before. I took that as a sign that Bhagavan had accepted responsibility for the project.
I went to the office and showed Sundaram our original version and how it differed from the version the ashram had been planning to send to the press. I deliberately picked out the most egregious mistakes since I knew he wouldn't have the time or the patience to check them all. After about five minutes he was convinced, but he had a problem.
'I am going to the US in three weeks and I want to take the first copies of this book to devotees there. How long will it take you to make the corrections?'
'I don't need to make corrections,' I replied. 'There's nothing wrong with the version I gave you three weeks ago. Venkatasubramanian and I have both checked it and we know there is nothing wrong with it. If you use our original Word file, you can send it to the printers as soon as you have done the page-making.'
He jumped out of his chair, went upstairs to the computer room where all the ashram publications were prepared, and made a very dramatic entrance.
'Everyone stop work!' he said as he burst in. 'No one is to do anything else until this book is sent to the press. Use Godman's original file and do whatever he tells you. I want it done...' He paused while he searched for a word that indicated how urgent the job was: 'I want it done... yesterday!'
Then he walked out of the room. It was like a scene from a movie. I sat down with Siva, the ashram's most proficient and fastest page maker, and in about eight hours we completed the page making. We then spent about an hour working on a cover design. We worked late into the night. The next morning, at about 10 a.m., which is when the president arrives for work, I showed him everything and said we were done. The files went off to the ashram's Chennai printer an hour later by courier. The whole process had taken less than twenty-four hours.
When things like this happen, the first reaction is gratitude. Then the thought arises, 'Well, Bhagavan did a good job on that one. I feel confident in entrusting him with any other problems that come up.'
The more you trust, the more you hand over problems, the easier life gets, because Bhagavan always resolves them in a simple and unobtrusive way. You just have to take the first step.
David,
Your illustration on surrender is very inspiring.
1. Venkatasubramanian decided that he should leave the matter there since you have submitted it to the Ashramam. That is his way of surrender. Whereas, in your case, you decided to inform the president and went to Bhagavan's samadhi to invoke the blessings. So, here are two courses of actions. My problem is that in life, I too face situations where I can keep quiet leaving it to Bhagavan or do something about it and then leave it to Bhagavan. How do we decide which one is right? This is what confuses me.
2. Another thing which bothers me very much is our normal day to day moral transgressions we (rather I) make. Somebody wrote before that small things like using office stationary for personal purpose is a moral transgression. I am full of such transgressions and also things like greed etc., With such load, when I try to invoke Bhagavan, these things first come to my mind and tell me that how can I go to Bhagavan when those things are not first resolved. The problem is that I am somewhere in between...neither lost in outright materialism nor in the ethereal heights of dedicated spiritual life. When I remember your case while surrendering, the mind tells me that you have left everything and dedicated yourself to Bhagavan and therefore, you have every reason to rely on Bhagavan. In my case, I am unable to leave everything (creature comforts etc.,) for Bhagavan and this pulls me back in offering myself in surrender to Bhagavan. I hope I am able to convey the kind of helplessness of an average mortal.
Regards Murali
David,
Many thanks for your post on surrender.
All I can say is it was beautiful to read, and recharging to those of us whose faith may sometimes need a little boost.
Thank you again.
Nandu
Hi Nandu,
That is very true. Amidst our overtly intellectual efforts to understand, comprehend, analyse and interpret, we forget the sweetness and heart-melting nature of faith. I was literally in tears while reading the account of David.
Truly, the 'I' goes back to the source effortlessly if one can melt in surrender and devotion.
Regards Murali
Friends,
It is inspiring to see David's trust in Bhagavan.This is something that has been testified over the ages by all true devotees.
What is apparent is the the OUTCOME.We should think about these things-That David and Venkat have put in Quality HARDWORK ,meticulousness,dedication-They have given their all.IT IS JUST THAT THE ASHRAM have to turn out the Finished product.THE DIFFICULTY was totally EXTRANEOUS.
GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES.Before we leave it to god WE SHOULD GIVE OUR ONE HUNDRED PERCENT-Beyond this is not in our hands.Even then we cannot expect things to HAPPEN IN OUR FAVOUR.
Spiritual pursuit is all about TAKING GAIN AND LOSS with Equipoise.
AS A STUDENT,IF I DO NOT STUDY and IF I EXPECT BHAGAVAN TO BAIL ME OUT,IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
The law of Karma will take its course-Bhagavan or anyone else is not there to alter this.
Our problem is NOT TO ENSURE THAT WHAT WE EXPECT should happen.OUR PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO NOT HAVE THE STRENGTH TO FACE SITUATIONS.Surrender will help to FACE LIFE.
DO THE RIGHT THINGS AND THE RIGHT THINGS WILL HAPPEN-THIS HAPPENING MAY BE PLEASANT OR UNPLEASANT.
My Master used to say-DON'T SWALLOW THE PESTLE AND LOOKOUT FOR THE MAGIC POTION THAT WILL HELP DISSOLVE THE PESTLE!TAKE CARE NOT TO SWALLOW THE PESTLE!
If we are facing problem with our office work-It will help to improve the skills required,attend some course,etc.If we have interpersonal problems do some introspection and correct any shoertcoming.If we are in debt,see if we can control our expenses.
""Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's"....JESUS,THE CHRIST.
My Master used to clearly emphasise THAT EVERY PROBLEM has to be faced.WE CAN ONLY DO WHAT WE CAN(THIS MUST BE 100%).The REST is not in our hands-surrender or no surrender.HE GIVES THIS approach-When in trouble-ask 'WHAT NEXT?' and see what is to be done and GO ABOUT DOING IT.DO NOT LET THE OUTCOME Paralyse your effort.
If We FIND THAT WE HAVE NOT DONE THINGS PROPERLY,WE CAN CORRECT THE SAME-NO NEED TO FEEL DIFFIDENT ABOUT THE PAST.START DOING THINGS THE RIGHT WAY AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS!
WISHING YOU THE VERY BEST.
MAY SRI BHAGAVAN'S GRACE GUIDE US IN DOING THE RIGHT THINGS AND GIVE US THE STRENGTH TO FACE LIFE FEARLESSLY!
Ravi,
Thanks for your suggestion to read Letters from Sri Ramanasramam. I have downloaded the pdf and am looking forward to it. Also, am pondering the two queries you posted, all this in way of preparing to receive your pending response!
David and Murali,
Have very much enjoyed your exchange on surrendering one's worries to Bhagavan. It gets right to the heart of things... very useful indeed. I look forward to the next round from you, David!
Best wishes to all.
My humble opinion is that if we accept Bhagavan or any Jnani as our pole star and revolve our entire outlook around them, our future is not exactly fixed.
I remember David mentioning in a thread here about a dialogue he had with Mathru Saradamma where she tells him that in the case of people who are on the spiritual path, the future is not fixed. He quoted an incidence where a major accident has been converted to a fall from a wall.
How do we explain these except with the hypothesis that if we are under the protection of a Jnani, things are not fixed.
My humble opinion is that surrender to a Jnani should have a value more than just giving mental strength.
Regards Murali
Murali,
"I remember David mentioning in a thread here about a dialogue he had with Mathru Saradamma where she tells him that in the case of people who are on the spiritual path, the future is not fixed. He quoted an incidence where a major accident has been converted to a fall from a wall.
How do we explain these except with the hypothesis that if we are under the protection of a Jnani, things are not fixed.
My humble opinion is that surrender to a Jnani should have a value more than just giving mental strength."
Kindly try to go behind the 'WORDS' and learn to feel what is conveyed.
I Have PUT things in an UNADULTERATED UNCOMPROMISING Fashion-THIS IS DELIBERATE.Do not see my message as putting Limits on what GRACE can do-The Emphasis is on WHAT WE CAN DO AND DO NOT DO!
This is what My Master emphasises repeatedly-"WHY DO LESS NUMBER OF PEOPLE COME HERE?WHY DO THEY FLOCK ELSEWHERE?"
He gives the Answer-"Here WE ASK PERSONS TO ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY!FOR MOST PERSONS,THIS TASTES LIKE 'BITTER'FRUIT.THEY WOULD RATHER LIKE TO HEAR some 'EASY OPTION'-Say ,just keep chanting this Hymn-everything will be okay,or visit this place-everything will turn out right,Or put your Faith in X,Y or Z and Leave the Rest-YES ALL THIS IS SWEET TO THE ears and ONE IS FREE TO CONTINUE IN HIS OLD WAYS and becomes 'peaceful'.YET NATURE CANNOT BE FOOLED.IT WILL SHOW THE HOLLOWNESS of this'peace' BY POSING THE PROBLEM OVER AND OVER AGAIN until the person awakens to see that HE HAS TO ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS ACTION AND LEAVE THE RESULTS IN THE HANDS OF NATURE(BHAGAVAN)"
Sir,This is TRUTH.I have offered what IS TRULY HELPFUL.I understand that we will be in a turmoil initially to accept this.LET THAT NOT prevent us from examining this.
You talked about the incident regarding Saradamma and the wall breaking up.All I wish to state is that MY MASTER 'SPECIALISES' in the law of Karma.I have not highlighted this aspect for VALID reasons which I will not go into.
I will just give you an example of how this works:
It was in 2004 or so when Master was asked to address a gathering of about 300 persons(quite a LARGE number!Most of them were invitees as well,other than the usual few who never fail to avail the opportunity).The Person who HAD ARRANGED THE MEET gave an introductory Talk-He is a BURMA refugee(of Indian origin)who has three sons.His Last son was in COMA and he was frantically looking for help.Someone had told him that there is a Talk by ONE TG Narayanaswamy and it will be useful if he attends the same.That evening G attended the Talk by Master.Somehow it occured to him that IF HE SUCCEEDS in Taking Master to the Hospital ,his son would recover.After the Talk ended,G approached Master with this request.Master simply told him-'Yes,I will go with you.BUT BEFORE THIS WE NEED TO GO OVER TO ANOTHER PLACE where yOU NEED TO RENDER YOUR APOLOGIES TO THAT PERSON AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS FROM HER!".G wondered how Master knew all this!
What had happened actually was that G used to entertain Buddhist Monks who travel from Burma.One of these monks had a row with a Lady.G thought that the 'monk' being a 'MONK' was right and the Lady was wrong and had initiated some proceedings against her(He did not reveal this part of the story!).SHE WAS PUT TO GREAT DIFFICULTY.
The Next day,Master accompanied G to the house of this lady and G asked for forgiveness.After this they proceeded to the Hospital.G's son recovered in a few days time and IS NOW HEALTHY.He was in that hospital for nearly 45 Days.
What Master used to say is that AS ONE ATONES FOR ONE's WRONG DOINGS,one OPENS THE DOOR FOR GRACE TO STEP IN.
I can cite any number of these cases!Do I have TO?
THE LAW OF KARMA IS INEXHORABLE.so What is one to do?BY DOING THE RIGHT THINGS NOW,WE CAN ANNUL MOST OF THE IMPACT.MOST IMPORTANTLY WE WILL PASS ON THE BENEFIT TO OUR CHILDREN BESIDES OURSELVES AND THEIR LIVES WILL BE FILLED WITH PURPOSE AND NOBILITY(No moral sense here!).Murali,I do not know if you understand Tamil-Master has cited this KURAL-kooRRam GuthiTHTHAlum Koodum NoRRalin AARal MiKKavarku(EVEN DEATH CAN BE JUMPED OVER BY THE PERSON WHO PRACTICES'COURSE CORRECTION'.
Please take my EMPHASIS as coming from a TRUE FRIEND.This is something that we may not get elsewhere.Let us not hanker after 'Hita Shatru'-A COMFORT that is truly a Foe only.
Salutations!
P.S:As i am trying to post GOOGLE VERIFICATION is expecting me to key in SLOUCH!
Friends,
"P.S:As i am trying to post GOOGLE VERIFICATION is expecting me to key in SLOUCH!"
This bit was intended for me!
Salutations!
SCOTT,
Trust you are doing fine!How was your sunday?
Wishing you the very Best!
Salutations to You!
Jupes,
Thanks for the kind remarks. No, I am not a teacher. I work as a (occasional / part-time) consultant in Finance-Investments. Get just about enough work to keep the home fires alight, if not burning brightly exactly.
I am definitely not a teacher on the blog, but just another sadhaka, more a beginner than most, and am really grateful for all that I am learning here from all you wonderful people.
.
.
... you need to render your apologies to that person and ask for forgiveness ...
Yes, that's really true. It gives me the opportunity to talk again about the pain issue. Personally I know three categories of pain:
a) The pain of sheer avidya, i.e. complete dullness of mind and soul: endless fear, endless arrogance, endless presumption, endless groping in the dark.
b) The pain of becoming aware of avidya, i.e. endless shame, endless regret, endless apologies
c) The pain of love
... what master used to say is that as one atones for one's wrong doings,one opens the door for grace to step in. ...
Yes, I feel this to be really true. I like to comment on this:
"To atone for one's doing" means to say: "I am a shame - there is nothing that I can do for me any longer because I am a complete idiot. The best would be to kill myself to let others get rid of my existence!" It is in this period that the individual sinks in true desperateness. But this desperateness is different from the desperateness of avidya:
In the desperateness of avidya I don't really and truly feel what a complete idiot I am. That means: I don't really know who I am as an individual. Therefore the desperateness of such an individual is not really TRUE. Because the next day it will CONTINUE with its evil deeds.
But in the desperateness of awakening from avidya I now have exactly this missed true knowledge about me as an individual: That I really am a complete idiot! And that I am FOR EVER this idiot. This desperateness is true hopelessness - there are no hopes at all. All hopes to become or to get what I tried to become or to get are lost - for ever! This is really a dark night (and therefore is called the dark night of the soul).
And I am stating that someone who is in this dark night of the soul really don't expect God to come and help him. Why should God come to help a complete fool to get out of the mires of his own errors? Isn't He occupied to help the good ones trying to help the world? In addition: This soul now knows that God tried to help many times in the past, but because of the foolness of this soul it was unable to take the stretched hand. So the situation for this soul is really hopelessness.
Such a soul does not (or does no longer) believe in this: If you apologize then God will come and save you!
Because then any apology of this soul would be true. Otherwise the soul tries to make business.
And therefore in my eyes it is justified to say: There is no causal relationship between surrender and grace. Because true surrender expects nothing - not even from God. Both are complet different things - like a mango and a rock. The only "link" between them is that God knows the situation of this soul. And that possibly He decides to do something.
In the interpretation of "I reveal Myself to him whom I choose" it is interesting that the need to reveal something to someone depends on two things: The "revelaer" is the active part. The individual is the passive part. Why the need to reveal? Because the individual know nothing about Me. And to know nothing about something is the same as to say: I can not choose something that I don't know of! That means in the very end that the individudal not has the least choice at all to get out of avidya without the help and the activity of Him. And knowledge of God (because of reading books or hearing something about his existence) is useless because then I am PROJECTING something out of my mind. I produce pictures of God being completely wrong. When this happens then I am lost anew - because I am producing sheer pictures of the Unknowable.
This all summarized means: God is the doer of all - of grace, of avidya, of vidya, of salvation. No chance for anyone to know what happens next according to His will. Only surrender (giving up the "I-thought") makes sense. And "makes sense" doesn't mean "you can expect results". "Makes sense" means: The individual understands thoroughly that there is no sense any longer to CONTINUE with evil deeds. Point. Total hopelessness - total ignorance of "what to do next". This in my eyes is the beginning of true knowledge.
Perhaps I put it a little bit drastically. I'm german as you know - the german society sometimes gives complicated experiences.
.
.
Ramos,
Interesting to read your views ,especially the last couple of lines!...UNDERSTOOD!
What you have given is a traditional Christian perspective,where YOU ARE EXPECTED TO FEEL THE PAIN FOR UNDERSTANDING.
What My Master has emphasised is THE UNDERSTANDING AND COURSE CORRECTION PART,the Pain may or may not be there-IF THE UNDERSTANDING dawns,Pain ends!
Yes,what you have traced is the sequence it happens to most.ONE MAY DO TWO THINGS-1.AVOID PAIN and prolong in AVidya as you call it.
2.END Pain through UNDERSTANDING.This UNDERSTANDING will ensure that the person does not return to his OLD ways.Habits will still try to drag one back,so Master asks one to Stay Awake and be in Satsangh.
MASTER's SIMPLE LOGIC:
He narrates the Story of The Buddha-Buddha shows a square piece of white cloth to his disciples.It is Fluttering Freely in the Wind.He then ties a knot at one corner of this cloth and holds it aloft for all to see.
'Now What?'-He asks his Disciples.
'It is Fluttering with lesser degree of Freedom'-reply the Disciples.
Buddha puts one more knot and holds it aloft.
'Sir,It is fluttering with lesser degree of Freedom',say the Disciples.
Buddha asks the disciples-'What is to be done to get back to the original Freedom'.
'Sir,We have to untie the Knots'-say the Disciples.
Buddha thn tells the disciples-'The Teacher will help you to SEE THIS TRUTH.YOU NEED TO WORK DILIGENTLY TO UNTIE THE KNOTS'.
Master further adds that the Guru can loosen the Tight Knot,yet each one has to go about this business of untieing the Knots.THE GURU IS NOT GOING TO DO THIS.
He further would say-'Imagine the Engine of your car switching off in the middle of the Road;Someone comes to give a push to your car while you try to get the Engine switched on by turning on the Ignition Key and,Releasing the Clutch,etc.The CAR IS LIKELY TO START and will take you where you want to go.If Instead of this,if your Car had a probem and you did not care to do anything about it and IF YOU EXPECT THAT PERSON TO PUSH YOU ALL THE WAY TO WHERE YOU WANT TO GO-THAT MAN(THE GURU)WILL EXCUSE HIMSELF AND ASK YOU TO FIRST GET YOUR CAR SERVICED!
KEEP YOUR CAR IN A SERVICED CONDITION!-This is his advice.
Thanks very much for your pespectives.Your English is quite good.
Salutations!
.
.
... What you have given is a traditional Christian perspective,where YOU ARE EXPECTED TO FEEL THE PAIN FOR UNDERSTANDING. What My Master has emphasised is ... IF THE UNDERSTANDING dawns,Pain ends!...
Therefore I wrote: "This in my eyes is the BEGINNING of true knowledge."
What afterwards starts is the pain of love. It never hurts - it is ecstatic, completely different from human pain. It is divine pain. This divine pain is the result of the mysterious situation of the parallel existence and none existence of the pairs of opposites. It means the parallel existence of duality and none duality - unknowable to the mind.
-----------------
The pain of christianity is different because it means real duality for ever. The understanding is completely different in that the individual never really gets salvation. This is how I feel about theology and practice of daily christianity.
But the true mystics of christianity like Saint John from the Cross didn't feel it this way. They burned in love. Look at Ramakrishna: Didn't he burned in love for the Mother? And Kabir, Rumi and others? What about Ramana? Didn't he burned in love? It is Brahman Himself burning in love for Himself (sat-chit-ananda). And this burning feeled by a human soul is PAIN. Remember Ramana trembling because Brahman came into "this hut of the body". Wasn't it pain? Or regretting to have loose the freedom to choose where to live ("sofa as a jail"). Wasn't it pain?
Human life means pain. It is useless to SAY: "I don't feel pain because I became Brahman; I'm not this body. You see this body trembling but I'm not this body." You can FEEL or BE so in the core of your being. But to say so you need to be a human - and humans have normal feelings.
People being merged in the Infinite don't talk - they taste. They no longer exist as persons. People being emerged from the Infinite and talking are people feeling human feelings. It is God himself deciding to become a human - why should there be no pain to feel the feelings of a human life? He created them - why ignoring them? He LIKES it to feel them. Duality this is definitely not - it is a deliberate decision of the Infinite to "become" the finite. And to resolve this afterwards.
Duality not really exists - the Finite not really exist - the Infinite not really exist. What does this mean? Mystic Reality. None of our ideas can project this. Only being this is possible. To express it means to produce a picture. There are a lot of pictures. Many of them are really true. Ramana was one of this pictures. But nevertheless this was a personal picture. Brahman is personal - it is a personal experience. Ramana Himself told it to be a personal experience. Therefore he could not Himself make people become enlightened.
Brahman is personal and impersonal at the same time - this is the mystery of Divine Reality. To say: "He is impersonal and nothing else" is a way of thinking - nothing else.
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Ramos,
"But the true mystics of christianity like Saint John from the Cross didn't feel it this way. They burned in love. Look at Ramakrishna: Didn't he burned in love for the Mother? And Kabir, Rumi and others? What about Ramana? Didn't he burned in love? It is Brahman Himself burning in love for Himself (sat-chit-ananda). And this burning feeled by a human soul is PAIN. Remember Ramana trembling because Brahman came into "this hut of the body". Wasn't it pain? Or regretting to have loose the freedom to choose where to live ("sofa as a jail"). Wasn't it pain?"
Very True Ramos!This is why The Buddha called existence as DUKKHA-PAIN!
Our Language is different,That is all.
Coming to this!
"Ramana Himself told it to be a personal experience. Therefore he could not Himself make people become enlightened.".....!!!?
HERE IT IS YOUR INTELLECT COMING INTO PLAY!I UNDERSTAND THIS TO MEAN THAT RAMANA,THE PERSON DID NOT COME INTO PLAY.YES,SRI BHAGAVAN IS THE SELF-Like Sri Ramakrishna said-Here there are two-The Devotee and The Mother.
I WILL PREFER TO USE THE LANGUAGE OF THE HEART -SRI BHAGAVAN IS THE GURU!NO MENTAL JUDGEMENTS HERE!
This is the danger in going into semantics and analysis and hair splitting.One tends to keep DRIVING WITH THE FOOT ON THE ACCELERATOR AND FORGETTING THE BRAKE IN TOTO!
In whatever manner you want to accept the Guru,you may do so.
I wish to recall a witty incident from the life of Paramahansa Yogananda.It looks like Yogananda and his friend were in the company of a Building Contractor-That contractor was WARY OF YOGIS AND THEIR ways-He started passing snide Remarks saying -Yogis are cheats!They are parasites living on the charity of others,etc,etc.Yogananda was reading a newspaper which had reported a BUILDING THAT HAD COLLAPSED.He pointed this news item and just quipped-"Building contractors are without compunction.They use inferior material and this is the result!".Immediately the Contractor Shot back-'Do not Generalise.Not all are like that'.
Yogananda punched in his point-'Yes,DITTO for the Yogis!'
THUMB RULE RAMOS is -DO NOT JUDGE!use reason and experience for UNDERSTANDING.
Salutations!
Ramos,
"Brahman is personal and impersonal at the same time - this is the mystery of Divine Reality. To say: "He is impersonal and nothing else" is a way of thinking - nothing else."
Yes,This is what Sri Ramakrishna has said-Human Mind is unable to comprehend this and in its Eagerness to arrive at QUICK CONCLUSIONS misses this point.
Thi groping of the Mind is what Sri Ramakrishna explain by his wonderful parable of THE ELEPHANT AND THE 4 BLIND MEN.The tricky thing about this wonderful parable is that it is so simple-ONE TENDS TO SEE THE FOLLY OF THE BLIND MEN,yet one never gets the point that THIS IS MEANT FOR ONESELF!one tends to believe It is meant for others!THIS IS HOW ONE FEELS!ONE IS AS BLIND AS A BAT,yet one thinks one can comprehend everything!What Brahman is and what it is not,what it will do and what it cannot do,etc,etc.
Salutations!
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..."Ramana Himself told it to be a personal experience. Therefore he could not Himself make people become enlightened.".....!!!?...
HERE IT IS YOUR INTELLECT COMING INTO PLAY!I UNDERSTAND THIS TO MEAN THAT RAMANA,THE PERSON DID NOT COME INTO PLAY.YES,SRI BHAGAVAN IS THE SELF-Like Sri Ramakrishna said-Here there are two-The Devotee and The Mother.
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Excuse me, Ravi, but now it is you interpreting me. I said exactly this: As a human guru (a human being) Ramana could not bestow enlightenment. But as the Self yes. And therefore it is the Self bestowing enlightenment - not Ramana.
Now the question is: What do you mean with RAMANA? It is obvious that you have to change the perspective to describe your PICTURE of Ramana, isn't it? And the same is it when you describe your picture of the Self. Beware of PICTURES in the mind. Absolute Reality is not a picture.
For me RAMANA means the SELF = Indescribable Reality.
Here you agree: "YES,SRI BHAGAVAN IS THE SELF"
But as a human guru he could not bestow enlightendment. Therefore he said: "The Guru stretches the hand to help you out of water. Can he hand over enlightenment to you?"
Here you agree too: "Like Sri Ramakrishna said-Here there are two-The Devotee and The Mother." Would Ramakrishna have said: "I am Mother?"
So what was going on when enlightenment happend in His presence? Answer: Mystic Self was doing the work. How? No one knows it exactly.
All my posts say nothing else then this.
Obviously this problem orrurs because of confusing NAMES und FORMS with absolute reality - the classical problem treated in vedanta.
When you say in your following post: "ONE IS AS BLIND AS A BAT,yet one thinks one can comprehend everything! What Brahman is and what it is not,what it will do and what it cannot do", then you admit that that what RAMANA is, is truly indescribable.
You can not talk about Ramana or the Self without talking of pairs of opposites, and the truth, as you know, lies not in "eating words" but in diving into the spirit of an explanation.
Related to the elephant parabel I said this in a former post:
Some blind men tried to know an elefant. Some touched this part of the elephant, some that part. Then they said: "The elephant is this or this..", depending on which part they touched. All are wrong and right AT THE SAME TIME = MAYA. It is not true to say: "the elephant is the leg" because the leg is only a part of the elephant. It is not true to say: "the leg is NOT the elephant", because it belongs to the elephant.
So what is the reality of the elephant? The answer: Indescribable, inexpressible, completely unknowable Mystic Reality; One Being, Self, Brahman, God. Only mystic love can realize it because this Reality Itself is being + mystery + love = sat-chit-ananda. This was the reason for Seshadri Swami to bow and to declare: "This donkey is Brahman Himself!"
Sounds this as a misunderstanding to you?
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Ramos,
WONDERFUL POST!You have beautifiully clarified the position on The GURU!I found this link missing in your earlier post.
"Excuse me, Ravi, but now it is you interpreting me. I said exactly this: As a human guru (a human being) Ramana could not bestow enlightenment. But as the Self yes. And therefore it is the Self bestowing enlightenment - not Ramana."
I have stated my understanding of what you were trying to say-"HERE IT IS YOUR INTELLECT COMING INTO PLAY!I UNDERSTAND THIS TO MEAN THAT RAMANA,THE PERSON DID NOT COME INTO PLAY.YES,SRI BHAGAVAN IS THE SELF-Like Sri Ramakrishna said-Here there are two-The Devotee and The Mother."
YES,THE LANGUAGE PART OF IT I GOT IT WRONG!SORRY!
I WILL SUMMARISE MY UNDERSTANDING TO SAY:
1.SATCHIDANANDA ALONE IS THE GURU.
2.THE HUMAN FORM OF THE GURU IS LIKE THE UDDER OF THE COW.
3.WHAT BRAHMAN OR SATCHIDNANDA CANNOT BE COMPREHENDED BY THE MIND.
4.ALL STATEMENTS THAT BRAHMAN IS PERSONAL IMPERSONAL OR BOTH OR NONE OF THESE OR BEYOND THESE,ETC ARE JUST 'IDEAS'.
5.ONLY IN SELF REALIZATION,ONE MAY KNOW THE TRUTH.
Yes,The beautiful bit about SESHADRI SWAMI that you have pointed ut is a beauty!
Thanks very much Ramos!
This has been a very good Learning experience!You have put everything beautifully .
Salutations!
Ramos,
Just missed this IMPORTANT THING THAT I FELT YOU WERE TRYING TO SAY-DO NOT BELIEVE IN HUMAN GURUS WHO ARE IGNORANT AND ARE TRYING TO "GIVE" ENLIGHTENMENT!
VERY,VERY TRUE!I UNDERSTAND AND APPRECIATE YOUR PASSION BEHIND ALL THIS MERRY GO AROUND!
This is a message sorely needed in this age!
This is what YOGI SHUDDANANDA BHARATI told me-'DO NOT ATTACH YOURSELF TO X OR Y OR Z;DO NOT ATTACH YOURSELF TO THIS OR THAT ASHRAM.SEEK TRUTH AND BE ITS VOTARY.
Salutations!
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... DO NOT BELIEVE IN HUMAN GURUS WHO ARE IGNORANT AND ARE TRYING TO "GIVE" ENLIGHTENMENT ...
Yes, but the things go even further: There are human Gurus not trying to "give" enlightenment at all. But they cause a lot of unintended chaos. Because they can not tell people the truth - the truth about this spiritual path which has to be experienced in inner solitude and retreat. The "sin" of this type of guru is that they are trying to support the natural, human tendency to create family-like "nests" where people try to feel well with each other. No one can become totally free in a nest - he needs to learn flying.
"The Guru stretches the hand to help you out of the water" - let us analyze this sentence. There is someone being in difficulties in the water, and the other person gives the opportunity to grap a halt. Obviously the "water man" could not get on his own out of the water. But it is obviously also true that the helper neither is of any real help. Why? Because it is the "water man" who has to step out of the water. "We can't make the horse drink".
In "spiritual terms" this means: The Guru helps to dispel the hindrances of true knowledge - the strong belief of the seeker that something is wrong with his own being. How he is doing this work? Not by imparting him, the seeker, his own wisdom. But by "dividing the water of the soul" - so that the ground becomes visible. And then the seekers OWN wisdom can emerge from the ground. And it is this wisdom that is doing the work. And of course it is the Self doing all this.
Avidya, maya should never to be underestimated. There are milliards of dead-end-streets in the universe of mind and soul. Someone believes to have grasp "it" - dead-end-street. Someone believes the opposite - dead-end-street. Someone believes to be beyond the opposites - dead-end-street. What could be helpful for true understanding? Not to believe beliefs, not to hold onto mental pictures. Huang Po, the ancient zen patriarch, said: "Pure and dispassionate knowledge means to put an end to the endless streams of mental pictures."
There exist a moving account from Swami Krishnananda vom Divine Life Society, Rishikesh. He said, and this in my eyes is a true spiritual path:
"I was a cynosure of all eyes wherever I went, for reasons I cannot understand. One of the visitors to the Ashram told me, "When I see you, I get strength." Another told me, "When I see you, I feel happy." Maybe so, but now I have discontinued seeing people, because I thought later that people who sit around me for the purpose of meditation go on looking at me but do not do any meditation. This obsession on the part of people has cost me enough, and instead of my spiritual energy going to people around, it appeared that their illness, their obsessed nature, interfered with me and I decided not to have a common meditation. I have closed it forthright. Let me be with God alone and not with people. The same is the case with Darshan, which also I have closed. Now I am alone and feel happy with God."
Swami Krishnananda
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RAMOS,
Very True.Very poignant to read about swami Krishnananda.I remember visiting Divine Life Society Rishikesh in 1989 or so.The ashram had organised a MAHA MRITYUNJAYA MANTRA JAPA -NONSTOP for the well being of Swami Krishnananda who I believe had CONTRACTED LEPROSY!(If I remember correct!)
RAMOS-NOW I INTEND STARTING THE WHEEL ALL OVER AGAIN!I AM NOW GOING TO ASK THE QUESTION OF WORSHIPPING THE GURU FROM THE BHAKTI PERSPECTIVE!
We know that Sri Ramakrishna WORSHIPPED The IDOL of MOTHER KALI.Sri Ramakrishna through his intense devotion and sadhana could see kali and speak to the Mother of the Universe.
NOW HOW ABOUT WORSHIPPING THE GURU AS THE MANIFEST FORM OF THE DIVINE-Purely the Bhakti perspective in the context of Sri Ramakrishna's approach?
I would like to have your views on this-THE HEART KNOWS ONLY THE GURU AS GOD-IT HAS NO OTHER KNOWLEDGE.IT DOES NOT KNOW ANYTHING ELSE!IT DOES NOT KNOW WHAT IS THE GOAL OR WHAT IS BRAHMAN.IT DOES NOT KNOW WHO OR WHAT IS GOD.
Please give your views from this perspective.
Salutations!
Jupes,
I have not forgotten what i have told you!I will get back to you on the Bhakti approach.Sorry to keep you guessing.I cannot help it.
Hope you found letters from Sri Ramanashramam interesting.Wishing you the Very Best.
Salutations to you!
...NOW HOW ABOUT WORSHIPPING THE GURU AS THE MANIFEST FORM OF THE DIVINE-Purely the Bhakti perspective in the context of Sri Ramakrishna's approach? ...
Yes, but the problem is what do you mean with "manifest form of the divine"? You know - the pictures...
To begin with discussion: My feeling is that Ramakrishna not (only) worshipped something physical - he was worshipping something within himself which was the manifestation of the divine power, a sort of an incredibly intense energy emanating endless and boundless joy and bliss. You know that he frequently dived into deep samadhi in the sense of a complete absence of sensual perceptions. There is no difference between Ramakrishna and Ramana, no difference between bhakti and jnana - one leads to the other. Once someone said (i don't remember the name): A true seeker of truth knows both ways - because both depend on each other. I believe this to be absolutely true. We both agreed about this somewhere else: they are different tastes of Absolute Reality. Vivekananda said: "I know every inch of the path."
It is my personal experience that we need two things: knowledge and love. Knowledge without love is dry, dead. Love without (divine) knowledge is worthless. Think of jnana and bhakti as COMBINED into one thing - that is like a fire, like a fire God puts the seeker into. Fire in my eyes is the best metapher to describe this - it means heat and light. And this truly is a form (THE form?) of God, isn't it? Because it feels like that. Everyone likes it to feel the heat of true joy, and everyone likes it to feel the light of an edifying thought (knowledge). Think of jnana and bhakti as incredibly increased heat and light.
I believe this two to be true all over the whole universe: knowledge = idea, and love = energy. Because energy without an idea has no sense of direction, and knowledge without energy has no reason to MOVE. But all over the universe we notice not chaos but divine order. So there must be a form of an intelligent combination of both powers.
In the material and sensual world this two categories take the form of dense objects. And in the divine world this two take the form of pure energy - this was the energy Ramana and Ramakrishna were driven by. Both were pure energy - all the people in the near of them could feel this. And this energy emanated all over the world. Divine energy is able to impart true joy, true happiness, true love, true knowledge. Wordly energy as the second form of divine energy has incredible power too, but this form of power creates only dense objects pointing DOWNWARDS, not upwards.
It is possible to take this two powers, thought (knowledge) and love (energy) laying down in the material world, and transform them into divine knowledge (jnana) and divine love (instead of sensual love). This process is what we call sadhana. It is like a pot with water cooking - the cold water is the old ego personality with its vasanas (its past memories and attachments). In the course of the process the water heats and evaporates. At the end the dense form of water is evaporated and takes the form of pure energy. The water is still there - but now it is in another state and takes a new form of energy.
I know that two things happened to me: As I met Ramana I had the feeling that suddenly my head was struck by intense lightning. And as I met Ramakrishna I was unspeakably delighted because I had the sweet feeling to meet myself. Knowledge = Love. Truly we need both - isn't it? In Ramana I tasted pure divine knowledge and in Ramakrishna I tasted pure childlike love. Until these days I'm still strongly impressed by the extremly precise and exhaustive but clear teaching of Ramana. But Ramakrishna is what I myself like to be: an innocent child chatting with friends about God and the world.
I once told a teacher that sometimes I have the feeling to be Ramakrishna himself. He replied rather wry: "Oh yes, i myself had my bhakti path in the seventies!" I had the feeling of a complete misunderstanding between us. That was no temporary feeling I had - I have it today too. Perhaps this teacher followed a path of worshipping which included a pure physical approach? And was disappointed later? I don't know. It was the same person telling: "I was in danger forgetting the world." (I posted this somewhere)
I love ALL my teachers I had and have all over the world. I hate the idea not having them any longer. In my eyes it is not only possible but necessary to DETACH from the physical teacher. But it is never possible to detach from that the true teacher stands for. When a teacher not able to transmit for what he stands is forgotten then this is natural and nothing else.
Ravi,
Thanks for the update on the forthcoming writings on your Bhakti approach. Yes, I am enjoying the Letters very much. And, as I said before, there's no hurry on your response, and please don't feel in any way rushed or pushed. In fact, if it turns out you can't do it for some reason, I will of course understand. But know that I'm still interested!
O Arvind, Great Clarifier that you are!
Thank you for clearing the murky waters over on the Power to Enlighten page! My head was spinning as well, and your musings were a great relief, especially for one as unlearned and ill-read as myself. Sometimes 'back to basics' is the best way to get clear on things. And, thanks to Ravi, Broken Yogi, and Clemens for pouring their hearts into it and generating such a rousing discussion (and anyone else I may have missed!).
(I am writing here on the Vichara thread, because I'm having trouble loading completely on the Power to Enlighten thread now. Oy vey!)
Greetings to ALL.
As I was reading from Letters from Sri Ramanasramam just now I ran across the following story that seems somehow apt in light of the blogging we are all doing and the many voices that are speaking here.
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31st December,1945
(17) HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING?
During the first week of last month, on one morning, an ignorant traveller came to the Ashram and, after staying here for two or three days, and in accordance with the saying “satra bhojanam matha nidra” (eating in choultries, sleeping in mutts) went away to eat and stay elsewhere, but was all the same coming here for some days enjoying the bliss of staying near and having the darshan of Bhagavan. Before leaving this town he approached Bhagavan one day with great hesitation and said, in humble tones, “Swami, the people sitting here always ask you something and you give them some replies. When I see that, I also feel tempted to enquire, but I do not know what to ask you. How then can I get mukti?”
Bhagavan, looking at him endearingly and, smiling, said, “How do you know that you do not know anything?” He said, “After I came here and heard the questions asked by all these people and the replies Bhagavan is pleased to give them, the feeling that I do not know anything has come upon me.” “Then it is all right. You have found out that you do not know anything; that itself is enough. What more is required?” said Bhagavan. “How to attain mukti by that much alone, Swami?” said the questioner. “Why not? There is someone to know that he does not know anything. It is sufficient if you could enquire and find out who that someone is. Ego will develop if one thinks that one knows everything. Instead of that, isn’t it much better to be conscious of the fact that you do not know anything and then enquire how you could gain moksha?”
He felt happy at that and went his way. That questioner might or might not have understood the essence of that Bhagawathvani (the voice of the Lord) but, for us people here, those words were echoing in our heart of hearts like mantraksharas (letters of the gospel).
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Best wishes!
Jupes,
Thanks for posting the wonderful incident from Letters!You get more practical tips here.MORE THAN TIPS,There is something else.I would like you to discover this.
Salutations to you!
Ramos,
WONDERFUL COMMENTS!TOTALLY SATISFIED AND 100% concur with you.
"I know that two things happened to me: As I met Ramana I had the feeling that suddenly my head was struck by intense lightning. And as I met Ramakrishna I was unspeakably delighted because I had the sweet feeling to meet myself. Knowledge = Love. Truly we need both - isn't it? In Ramana I tasted pure divine knowledge and in Ramakrishna I tasted pure childlike love. Until these days I'm still strongly impressed by the extremly precise and exhaustive but clear teaching of Ramana. But Ramakrishna is what I myself like to be: an innocent child chatting with friends about God and the world. "
THIS IS EXACTLY how I FEEL!I ALSO SEE HOW CLOSE it is to what our PRETENTIOUS 'S' has said so BEAUTIFULLY!'S' -WHERE ARE YOU?Pl SURFACE EVERY NOW AND THEN!
THIS IS THE GURU speaking through you.salutations to the GURU!
Just this small difference in expression-THE PICTURES IN THE MIND create confusion but if seized by the Heart,they may be helpful-WHY?Because the HUMAN CAN ONLY conceive of GOD as a HUMAN BEING only.THIS IS THE GREAT MESSAGE OF SRI RAMAKRISHNA-NO matter how humble the beginning or seed feeling,however obscure or kiddish it may appear TO THE INTELLECT,if seized by the unsophisticated heart,with a genuine longing is all that is necessary.ALSO THIS,that I LIKE the UNSOPHISTICATED WAY of SRI RAMAKRISHNA's GNANA!He has completely eliminated OVERUSED TERMINOLOGY,and IMPORTANTLY puts it in a PRACTICAL(for the Ignorant limited mind)PERSPECTIVE.
Sri Bhagavan also PUTS IT ALONG THE SAME LINES-in that wonderful post by Jupes from The Letters from Sri Ramashramam.
Now I wish to express my thought on the GURU-"When we realise that all the LEARNING,EXPERIENCE are infant gropings,there is humility and aspiration.The GURU then comes to one's aid and says-This is it!Do not struggle.We now realise that the Guru is ALL-mother,father,Teacher and GOD as well;as it is said EVEN IF WE EXPERIENCE GOD,it is the GURU WHO has to CONFIRM that EXPERIENCE.THE GURU is that EXPERIENCE.As Kabir said if both God and The Guru were to appear before me,The First salutation will be to the GURU.IMAGINE IF THE INTELLECT(mind) JUMPS IN HERE !"
NOW ONE LAST POINT-THE PICTURE OF THE GURU is the REALITY!IT IS NOT DIFFERENT FROM IT-depends on WHO sees the picture.
Salutations!
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Seeds of meditation:
Gems from Bhagavan:
"It is like an actor. He dresses, acts and even feels the part he is playing, but he knows that he is really not that character but someone else in real life. In the same way, why should the body-consciousness or the feeling ‘I am the body’ disturb you once you know for certain that you are not the body but the Self. Nothing that the body does should shake you from abidance in the Self. Such abidance will never interfere with the proper and effective discharge of whatever duties the body has, any more than the actor’s being aware of his real status in life interferes with his acting a part on the stage.
Take hold of that State which alone is the Supreme and True One and engage yourself in action in the world, regarding your life there as mere sport. You have discovered That which is the Reality inside your Heart behind all the appearances of this world. So, without ever letting That out of your sight, disport yourself as you like in the world. Seeming to have enthusiasm and gratification, anxieties and aversions (but really having none of them), seeming to begin and persevere in endeavours (but really having no attachment to such efforts), engage yourself in the affairs of the world without any detriment to yourself.
Freeing yourself from all sorts of bonds, maintaining the same equanimity and doing work externally in conformity with the environment in which you find yourself, disport yourself as you like in the world. He whose mind is not attached to any desires, does no action in reality, though his body may act. He is like one who hears a story with his mind elsewhere. Similarly, the man whose mind is full of desires is really acting though his body may be actionless. A man may be sleeping here with his body inert, and yet he may be climbing hills and falling from them in dream at the same time. It is all the same to one who is fast asleep in a cart, whether the cart moves or stops, with the bulls left yoked or unyoked.
Similarly for the Jnani who has gone to sleep in the cart of His physical body, it does not matter whether He works or is in deep meditation (samadhi), or is asleep."
Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi:
A visitor: The saints Sri Chaitanya and Sri Ramakrishna wept before God and achieved success. Is that not the path to follow?
M.: Yes. There was a powerful force (sakti) drawing them on through all those experiences. Trust in that huge power to take you on to your goal. Tears are often considered a sign of weakness. These great persons were certainly not weak. These manifestations are only passing signs of the great current carrying them on. We must look to the end achieved.
D.: Sri Ramakrishna prepared Vivekananda. What is the power behind?
M.: The power is only one in all.
D.: What is the nature of that force?
M.: Just like iron filings drawn towards a magnet, the force is inside and not outside. Ramakrishna was in Vivekananda. If you think Vivekananda to be a body, Ramakrishna also is a body. But they are not bodies. Vivekananda could not go into Samadhi had not Ramakrishna been within him.
D.: Sri Ramakrishna touched Vivekananda and the latter realised Bliss. Is it possible?
M.: Sri Ramakrishna did not touch all for that purpose. He did not create Atma. He did not create Realisation. Vivekananda was ripe. He was anxious to realise. He must have completed the preliminary course in his past births. Such is possible for ripe persons only.
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Comment: "anxious to realise": Complete willingness not to seek pleasures in the world but to dive within in quest for the source of death (and birth) = in Quest for the source of eternal life. Searching for death means searching for that what hinders me to be happy: my fears. Fear arises because of expectation, of hopes. Therefore fear is my deadly enemy. He becomes my wonderful friend, the Self, if i dare to dive deep into it.
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Suggestion to all: I always found it to be a great help in doing sadhana to COMMENT by myself on the possibly meaning of the wisdom words. It helps clarify the mind.
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RAMOS,
Thanks very much!The latest post oy yours-Gems from Sri Bhagavan-just puts GNANA in the correct perspective as EMBRACING THE WHOLE OF LIFE and not as some ASCETIC PREOCCUPATION!
THIS IS WHAT MY MASTER TEACHES-He says DO NOT HOLD ONTO ANYTHING,NOT EVEN THE 'I'!Gnana is to REALISE that the 'I' is not.Bhakti arrives at the same Truth.The initial approach route is different AND THIS IS IMPORTANT TO RECOGNISE THIS.Accordingly the GURU guides one along the NATURAL path.THE CULMINATION is the place where the apparently different paths meet and coalesce.
It is important that we understand this difference and bear this in mind when we say SO AND SO ADVOCATED THIS PATH-To WHICH person is important as well.Also that LIFE cannot be confined to a STRAIGHT JACKET and cannot be made to Strictly follow a BLUEPRINT!
Variety is the spice of Life and any appproach necessarily has to accommodate this necessity.
Thanks very much.
Salutations!
Ramos,
Wonderful to read about what Sri Bhagavan had spoken about the other great saints.Shiva Patil had asked for this detail.
"Suggestion to all: I always found it to be a great help in doing sadhana to COMMENT by myself on the possibly meaning of the wisdom words. It helps clarify the mind."
Wonderful approach!THIS IS WHAT MY MASTER RECOMMENDS-This is called MANANA!In the path of Gnana Yoga the three important facet are -SRAVANA(Listening from the Great Ones),Manana(is Deep Reflection on the Truths Heard )and Nidhithyasana(Deep Contemplation of the Truths).
Along with this CONTENTMENT,SERENITY,ENQUIRY and SATSANGHA(HOLY ASSOCIATION)are recommended.
You have a deep interest and tremendous thirst for this quest.
I have enjoyed and benefitted by your valuable posts.
Wishing you The Very Best!Salutations!
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Gems from Bhagavan:
The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad says ‘Aham’ is the first name of God. The first letter in Sanskrit is ‘A’ and the last letter ‘Ha’ and ‘Aha’ thus includes everything from the beginning to the end. The word Ayam means That which exists, self-shining and self-evident. Ayam, Atma, Aham all refer to the same thing. In the Bible also, ‘I AM’ is given as the first name of God.
If we concentrate on any thought and go to sleep in that state, immediately on waking up the same thought will continue in our minds. People who are given chloroform are asked to count one, two, etc. A man who goes under after saying six, for instance, will, when he comes round again, start saying seven, eight, etc.
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Comment on this: So if we can manage not to go to sleep with the idea "i am the body" but with "god" then the first thought the next morning would be "god". Hold on to that the whole day. Great!
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Ramos,
The Last Thought before sleep is the First one to pop out when one wakes up!Yes,This is what My Master recommends after we listen to his talk in the evening-He recommends-Go Home,Have your meal and chew the cud of whatever was said here-Then with this,retire to bed.In the morning you will find that the Mind is clear and serene-Take care not to disturb this n the course of your day to day activity.Again after you return from office stay with this calm.Gradually his will become your Natural state.
I used to find that after lstening to his Talk,when I return home by 21:30 hrs and have my food,Peace like a subtle breath like presence will envelop me-and this seeps in and stays with me through Sleep.
Master used to advise strictly against any other form of socialising after listening to the Talk.
Last Sunday,Master had asked us to listen to a recording of his talk given a few years ago-He said that He also is interested in this Talk-There were many points that had COME OUT and in listening to this,he listens as if for the first time!As if someone else had delivered the talk!
HE SAID-LISTENING TO THE VERBAL PART IS ONLY PART OF THE EXPERIENCE-WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT IS THE NON VERBAL PART-SUBTLE ENERGY ThAT emanates and permeates the listeners;depending on their RECEPTIVITY it does its work.
Salutations!
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...LISTENING TO THE VERBAL PART IS ONLY PART OF THE EXPERIENCE-WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT IS THE NON VERBAL PART-SUBTLE ENERGY ThAT emanates and permeates the listeners;depending on their RECEPTIVITY it does its work....
Oh yes, it is not the words counting - it is the energy arising afterwards -when the mind is satisfied with what it read or heareds.
That is the reason why some words don't sound interesting whereas other words (like the holy ones) may fascinate us: They satisfy the mind or not. "Satisfied" means: To be desireless in the depths of mind = no mind.
This moment I ended the translation of Gems of Bhagavan into German and I feel really satisfied too.
The whole week I was completely merged into this translation and it is difficult to emerge from this.
I cannot think of something else.
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I translated more then one book (for example the marvelous treatment Advaita Bodha Deepika) from Ramanasramam into German but I have no money to buy licenses for it. Hopefully I'm not doing anything wrong when offering this translations for free on my personal website to friends or to whom it may interest. Maybe David Godman could say anything about this issue.
If he object against that then I have to remove this translations. I know this question to be "dangerous" for me but "sometimes I see no other choice as to be honest".
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Ramos,
You are doing a great job.Yes,the copyright and other related issues are always a pain!(Pain!!!)
I totally appreciate your downright honesty.Sri Bhagavan will find a way for this.
Yes,David is the person who can competently advise you regarding this matter.
I understand how SOAKED you must be with bhagavan's Gems!
Also Advaita Bodha Deepika!
I remember a beautiful incident from the Life of Swami Ramakrishnanda,a Direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna.He used to conduct Gita,upanishads classes in Chennai(in 1900 or so)Very few people used to attend these classes.Once,one of this Swami's Disciples waited outside when the class was going on in the room.He did not want to Disturb the Class.Ramakrishnanada was giving a Talk on the Gita.After the talk was over,his disciple tiptoed into the Room only to find that there was not a single person in the Audience!
He was amazed and asked Ramakrishnanada as to how He was giving the Talk when no one was there!Ramakrishnanada Told the Flabbergasted Disciple-"Why?I am Here.This Talk was for me!"
So,in any case th effort never goes waste.If it is the will of Providence that others should also benefit by your efforts,it is BHAGAVAN's Problem,not yours!
Wishing you the Very Best.
Wishing you The Very Best!
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...the Flabbergasted Disciple-"Why?I am Here.This Talk was for me!" ...
Beautiful story!
...So,in any case th effort never goes waste.If it is the will of Providence that others should also benefit by your efforts,it is BHAGAVAN's Problem,not yours!...
Yes, you are completely right, my friend. The future will never bring any harm - whatever it may be.
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Dear Ramos and Ravi,
Have been quietly absorbing your exchange of posts. Both illuminating and inspiring.
Ramos, your translation sadhana is truly inspiring, in the light of a project that Bhagavan may want me to execute.
Right now, the worry (if I can use that word) is both logistics and finances. I have been reading 'Living By The Words Of Bhagavan' for inspiration in starting off this project.
And your post just confirms everything. I must start without worrying about things like finances.
Many thanks.
Ramos,
Here is more of Ramakrishnanda-When he was deputed to Madras,in South India,by Swami Vivekananda,R stayed in a small dilapidated house.Here He had installed the Picture of Sri Ramakishna,his Guru.He used to perform his prayers,prepare food and offer to his Master and sleep nearby.In the Night when it rained,The Roof used to Leak.Ramakrishananda will hold an umbrella over the Master's picture and stay awake through the Night holding that umbrella.For him it was not Picture.THE MASTER was very present and R did not want to disturb him in the Night!Hence he just held the umbrella!
This is ONE example of how the picure can be VIEWED!
Salutations!
Nandu,
May Bhagavan's blessing be with you!
Wishing you the Very Best in your project.
Salutations!
Thank you Ravi. I take your post as Bhagavan's words.
... Right now, the worry (if I can use that word) is both logistics and finances. I have been reading 'Living By The Words Of Bhagavan' for inspiration in starting off this project. ...
Dear Nandu, I remember in "talks" that Sri Ramana gave book translation as sadhana to one of his devotees being professor in Madras.
Every sadhana needs to be suitable to the personality of the seeker. It is NEVER the other way round: The seeker has to make his personality suitable for a special kind of sadhana.
"Brahman is a personal experience."
God truly knows your likes and dislikes. And he tries to give you that kind of occupation you like most. Many people believe this statement to be "selfishness". But in my personal experience this is a complete misunderstanding. God is holy in the eyes of the seeker, and the seeker is holy in the eyes of God. Why should He give him something which tastes bitter?
Therefore I once wrote into my diary:
"True understanding implies to do what you always loved to do in your life."
The process of seeking reveals this: In true sadhana there is a complete absence of force and constraint and unwillingness. Therefore in the sadhana the seeker is doing has to be found something what in his whole life always was present but hidden. And what now is "lived" by the seeker.
For myself this appears to be a kind of total inner retreat to contemplate the words of wisdom. And this corresponds beautiful with my occupation during the whole of my childhood: Reading.
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Ramos,
So true!
Actually, I have had no choice in the matter. Was writing a mail to a friend about another book project when Bhagavan literally forced this thought into my head.
And that was that. I am sure He will guide all of us involved in this, every step of the way.
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I remember a question related to "unknowable to the mind" saying: If He is unknowable how can we know Him?"
There is a beautiful passage in ELLAM ONDRE in chapter GOD as an answer to this. This is a part of it:
"2. Can God then not be made known to us? Not quite so. In a way, He is known to us. This
much of His Grace is enough for us. We have no need for all His Greatness. He has made
known so much of His Greatness as will suffice to eradicate our misery. There is no reason for
Him to reveal a jot more of His Power than is necessary to remedy our defects in the present
state. Thus He is known according to our needs. Nay, He is in our grasp. However limitless,
He is within reach of our knowledge to some extent.
3. What is it which brings Him within reach of our knowledge? That He is known as
Being-Consciousness-Bliss."
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Apparently this book is no longer available on download page of Ramanashraman. On sister web sites in New York and at other places neither. I don't know why. I found it here:
Ellam Ondre
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David/Friends,
just picked up this passage from the OTHER THREAD -Glory of The Guru.
"Question: Is a Master necessary for realisation?
Bhagavan: The realisation is the result of the Master’s grace more than teachings, lectures, meditation, etc. They are only secondary aids, whereas the former is the primary and the essential cause. (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, talk no. 13)
Muruganar: As it is difficult for ordinary jivas to get redeemed by directly knowing the limitation-free swarupa of the Supreme that shines unceasingly as ‘I-I’ in everyone’s Heart as their own Self, they should first worship the Guru’s form, destroy their delusion and attain redemption. This is the implication. Though the Guru appears to be like a human being in the perspective of ordinary people, through his experience he is indeed the supreme swarupa. Therefore, to imagine differences between him and swarupa is ignorance."
Sri Muruganar's verdict is the same as what we have arrived towards the end of our discussion in the this thread.(See my post dated 11/08-The Pictre of the Guru,etc).
I have always seen it BENEFICIAL TO CHECKOUT HOW TRUE DEVOTEES have understood the teachings of the masters.SOMETIMES THIS IS MORE ILLUMINATING AND GRASPABLE THAN THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT OF MASTERS.This is something like a mother bird processing the prey and then feeding the little ones.
Easier to consume.
Salutations!
Dear David,
I thank you for your lifetime of selfless effort in spreading the most intimate wisdom of the Jnanis to the ones as me who have received it at the most opportune of times.
I have been practising inquiry for about 3 yrs now after a couple of yrs of other sporadic forms of meditation, and my experiences have been quite physical/psychological in nature accompanied with heavy activity in the chakra centers. This began prior to my visit to Arunachala, but has intensified to quite an extent since. There have been an increase in synchronicities and other external signs as well. During meditation, while the inquiry is on by pulling on the "I"ness, it immediately engages the chakras along the spine into variable bursts of energy and such which lasts almost consistently throughout the period of an hour or so of meditation.
It has been a tremendously intense experience which fits the analogy of "boiling a donut in water" as given by Nisargadatta Maharaj. I was wondering if you have come across any such accounts of physical chakra sensations in inquiry.
Thanks a lot.
Jupes,
this is my first instalment on Bhakti way-as I have understood,in my own language.With a prayer to the Guru for guiding me in sharing what is deeply personal-Not all can be expressed in words.Yet, I will try my best.
Before I begin, let me just explain why I am not a Saibaba devotee, or a Ramakrishna Devotee, or Ramana devotee or Aurobindo Devotee! This means that I do not subscribe to tags or Bandwagons-The Herd instinct that seeks an identity and feels secure in belonging to the herd.This sort of instinct mistakes emotion for devotion, bigotry for Faithfulness and insulation for steadfastness-leaving very little room for openness, development and exploration.
What is Bhakti or the path of devotion? Why is it so natural? Why does it take one deeper? What is depth? I will try to cover some of these aspects. As humans we are creatures of feeling than thought. Feeling is the actual, thought is the ideal. Feeling is immediate than thought which is peripheral to us. We live in our feelings and use thought to steer, sort, understand, judge. Feelings can be expressed very effectively in a nonverbal way –a smile, a handshake, a hug can immediately connect people. Thought has to use words and often this may not convey effectively what was originally intended.
What are the Feelings that we are familiar with?-Joy, compassion, Love, Fear, anger, sorrow, Greed, jealousy. In Joy, love and compassion we find ourselves and also expand ourselves. We discover ourselves and also reach out to others. In Fear, Anger, sorrow, greed and Jealousy, we lose ourselves and also isolate ourselves. This is something we all have experienced and know very well. Yet in actual living do we reflect this understanding?
To gain ourselves in Joy, compassion and love is the very purpose of Living. This is what is defined by the mind-know thyself. What is to be done to regain this lost innocence?
We need to let go of Anger, Jealousy, Greed, Fear-To become aware of the negative impact of these emotions and to learn to stand apart is the Way of Gnana.
To dwell in Joy, compassion and Love is the way of Bhakti.
What is love? We all feel this-
There is this sense of attraction. Yet attraction alone is not love if it grabs hold of what it is attracted to-becomes possessive-for this leads to a contraction and Jealousy springs from this. This sort of love is destructive. It follows that instead of Grabbing, if there is giving then there is expansion. In this Expansion there is Compassion. In compassion there is joy.
This love is our true nature; yet because of our contracted way of living by pursuing self centred activity we have shrunk ourselves; love is covered with a thick smokescreen of negative emotions. We still have the spark of the old flame and this still peeps out at certain moments in our lives. How to fan the dying embers into a huge conflagration that consumes everything and leaves us in our state of innocence!
How to recognize the peeping out of compassion?I will pause here and continue later.
Salutations!
Greetings Ravi,
It is good to read your first installment on the Bhakti way. I very much appreciate your taking the time to write it down and post it here. I know it will be helpful to others besides myself and I look forward to what comes next.
Best wishes!
Kathamrita:
“A childlike faith is needed! Such as the yearning of a child to see its mother. Such longing heralds the dawn. It is followed by sunrise. One sees the Lord after such intense longing.
“Listen to the story of the boy Jatila. To get to school, he had to go on horseback through a forest. On the way, he would feel frightened. When he told his mother about it, she said: Why fear? You should call out, ‘Madhusudana.’ The boy asked, ‘Who is Madhusudana?’ The mother replied, ‘Madhusudana is your elder brother.’ After that, when he felt afraid going through the forest alone, he cried out, ‘Brother Madhusudana.’ When there was no reply, he called out, ‘Where are you, brother Madhusudana? Please come, I am so afraid!’ Bhagavan then could not hold Himself back. He came and said, ‘Here I am. What is there to fear?’ And he accompanied the boy to the passage leading to the school and said to Jatila, ‘I will come whenever you call Me. Don’t be afraid.’ Such childlike faith! Such yearning!
“A brahmin used to worship Bhagavan daily in his house. One day he had to go out on business. Before going he said to his young son, ‘Offer food to Bhagavan today. The deity must be fed.’ The boy did so. But Bhagavan sat still – He would neither talk nor eat. Having waited for some time, the boy saw that Bhagavan did not move. He was very sure that He would come, take his seat on his asana, and eat his meal. The boy said again and again, ‘Bhagavan, please come and eat. It is already very late. I cannot be here much longer.’ Bhagavan, however, did not say anything. The boy began to cry, saying, ‘Lord, my father asked me to feed you. Why don’t you come? Why don’t you eat here?’ He cried yearningly for some time. Then he saw Bhagavan come smiling to take His asana (seat) and eat the meal. After serving Him, the boy went out of the shrine. The members of his family said, ‘You have fed the Lord. Bring the offered food downstairs.’ The boy said, ‘Yes, yes. I have fed Him and Bhagavan has eaten everything.’ They said, ‘What are you saying?’ The boy said simply, ‘Why, Bhagavan has eaten the food!’ They all went to the shrine and were speechless with wonder!”
Ramos,
Thanks very much for your post from Kathamrita.This is the very essence of the path of Bhakti.Each time we go through these simple sayings,they always remain fresh like a daisy and go straight to the Heart.It is truly a rare privilege to appreciate ths childlike innocence and trust.This is all that is required.
How I wish to be like cow Lakshmi in Sri Bhagavan's Presence-mute but loving.She had this good sense to approach the Right Person and to just let go.
Thanks very much.
You are a Blessed soul.You have deep thirst.
Salutations!
...How I wish to be like cow Lakshmi in Sri Bhagavan's Presence-mute but loving. ..
I like this story of Lakshmi running to Bhagavan as soon as she saw him, not noticing people in the way at all.
Knocking everything down being in my way and rushing to God - thats it.
Jupes,
Sorry for keeping you guessing.Hope to post The rest of the Bhakti approach tommorow.Just thought of adding a few personal details also.I thought it may be of interest to you to know a little bit of my personal background.
The Letters from Ramanashramam has some aspects that will aid in the Bhakti approach.I wanted to have your feedback to see how I can tailor my writeup.
May Bhagavan's Blessings be with you!
Ravi,
It's good to find your comment here today and I look forward to tomorrow's post. You said you wanted feedback so that you could 'tailor your writeup.' I like the idea that you will include some info on your personal background.
In your first installment you wrote about feelings, how feelings are more immediate than thoughts and how humans can often communicate more effectively through feelings than through thoughts. Then you talked about different types of feelings and how some are perceived as more positive and others as more negative. If my understanding is correct, the Bhakti approach, as you are presenting it, comes through dwelling in compassion, joy and love--those feelings in which we can 'discover ourselves,' as you put it.
It would be useful to hear more about how to discover oneself through dwelling in compassion, joy, and love.
I would also like to say that some of the other emotions you mentioned, such as fear, anger, and sorrow, have been extremely useful for me in discovering my own self and in forging pathways into deeper places inside of me. I consider those feelings to be friends, and if indeed I do 'lose myself' in those feelings, it is only temporarily. It is those feelings that eventually lead me to love, to joy and to compassion, and it is this interfacing of different types of feelings that somehow keeps me in motion and feeling alive.
So, if you could respond to what I just said, from a Bhakti perspective, that would be useful as well.
Best wishes, Ravi!
Jupes,
Thanks for your Kind Feedback.I truly appreciate your fine sensitivity and deep insight.I am sharing the detail on my life;I will follow it up with the one on the Bhakti Approach.You already know it.it is more by way of exchanging notes.Here is my story:
" With a prayer to the Guru to guide me in putting across what I want to share, I am beginning this write-up.
I am born in a Brahmin family; my paternal grandfather was a pious soul-My earliest recollections of him was when he used to sprinkle water on our face in the morning whenever we were late in getting up. Early mornings would find him sitting in his place on the terrace-doing the sandhya and the Gayathri japa.I have never seen him sitting idle-all his time would be spent in pooja, reading scriptural books in their original Sanskrit, visiting the temple-remember one incident where he was seated in meditation in a corner in temple; when he opened his eyes, he found quite a few coins strewn around! They were offerings from visitors who thought that he was a poor Brahmin. Grandpa dropped them in the collection box in the temple .Nights were a special time for us brothers, sisters and cousins. Grandpa will regale us with Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhagavatham; He had the knack of closing the sessions at just the right point!
I was invested with the sacred thread ceremony when I was seven-This is the formal initiation into the first stage called Brahmachari ashrama-where one is considered as reborn and prepared for the study of scriptures-This involved regular performance of The Sandhya at auspicious times of the day-Before dawn, midday and before sunset. Besides Grandpa was very particular that we learn chanting the Vedas-He arranged for a Pundit to teach us the Purusha Sukta, Rudram, chamakam and the Taitriya Upanishad-I remember this pandit (sastri) with gratitude-He used to turn up whenever he had free time and this used to eat into our playtime in the evenings! Often we used to go into hiding but it was no use. Grandpa ferreted us out and we ended up sitting for these sessions after extracting a concession from our teacher that he will keep it short!
I used to stick to these daily routines till late into secondary school. When I moved away to study in college many of these got jettisoned. Grandpa left us to decide for ourselves. One unforgettable moment was when I took leave of my Grandpa after a semester holiday to return to my college-Grandpa quietly showed a neat bundle of books and said –you may be reading these when you grow older; They are here-He did not come out to see me off as he usually did. A couple of Months later I was attending his funeral. On my way back to college, in the Train I was reading a small book-Light, power and wisdom by Swami Sivananda of The Divine Life Society. This was my way of saying good-Bye to Grandpa. Something from this book seeped in! Back In the college, I hunted out for more books-The life of Swami Vivekananda had a deep impression on me-Then followed Sri Ramakrishna and The Holy Mother-and a whole procession of Saints-with whom I felt a sort of kinship-A feeling that I belonged to them. Next to follow was Paul Brunton’s A search in Secret India which made a deep impression –I was tremendously impressed by Brunton’s open, penetrative and deeply earnest quest-His meeting the sage of Kanchi, The Maharishi, Master Mahasaya, Yogi Ramiah were fascinating chapters that were read and reread.
Vacations will find us cousins sitting late into the Nights discussing these various stories and teachings. These were passionate discussions, hotly contested, yet suddenly giving way to deep appreciation-a truly kaleidoscopic picture.
Sometime round about this time, I used to seek out the Yogis and Masters-visiting Ashrams-Sri Aurobindo ashram, Sri Ramana Ashram, Ramakrishna Mutt, Swami Ramdas ‘s Anand Ashram.I remember with Gratitude the Guidance given by Yogi Shuddhananda Bharati-I have read his Autobiography in college Library and had started correspondence with him-I met him in his Yoga samaj-I had ascetic leanings and I wanted the Yogi to write a few lines in my autograph Notebook to the Effect that He should Bless that I lead a monk’s life-He neatly sidestepped and wrote out a few inspirational lines-Later when I had joined a job, He stayed for a night in our home-He asked me to meditate along with him-later he told me-Do Not Fight with Nature; you can marry and lead a spiritual life-There is no problem in this. Round about this time, I had the good fortune of meeting Beloved Annamalai swami-I had read about him in a series of article that had appeared in a local Tamil Magazine-Actually the First time when I reached his Ashram wading through thick bushes, I did not expect to see him live-Somehow I had this impression that I am visiting his Samadhi! It was a pleasant surprise for me when Swami opened the wicket and asked me to come in! This is a treasured association that I kept up with Swami that I kept up till his Mahasamadhi.I have Swami’s Letters Treasured ,also the one that he wrote after receiving my Marriage invitation. My daughter was a child of 2 when we visited Swami and I cannot forget Swami asking me not to restrain her when she was trying to climb onto something. My son although born in 1990, never got to see Swami.
One of my unforgettable places of pilgrimage was my Stay in Jayarambati for a Night –this is the Place of The Holy Mother Sarada Devi and also to Kamarpukur, The Birth Place of Sri Ramakrishna. This was in 1979. I was initiated by one of the Swamis of This wonderful order. I carry this in my blood! Yet this does not close me from exploring and accepting all the Great Masters. In 1996, I met My Master, who put my Sadhana on a more Level Ground-as otherwise it was leaning towards a Life Shunning type. Master added the Robustness to include all aspects of Life as a Fit Training ground as well as a Field for Expressing and a affirming an all inclusive spiritual Living. Many of the Fundamentals got cleared, Thanks to Master’s comprehensive approach. I am deeply indebted to him. There is a long way to go; yet I am quietly confident-As Sri Ramakrishna says-make, make and it is done!"
Salutations To you!
... I would also like to say that some of the other emotions you mentioned, such as fear, anger, and sorrow, have been extremely useful for me in discovering my own self and in forging pathways into deeper places inside of me. I consider those feelings to be friends ...
"To be friends": Yes, this is what I tried to say with: At the end the extremes are touching each other. What means for example: Where there is a real deep feeling of angry and sorrow, there this feelings are going to be transformed into their **opposites**. But at first we need to hold onto this unpleasant feelings. The "pain".
The problem is not the fear - the problem is the fear to fear - to avoid it.
To be aware of bad feelings in my eyes is the same as to say: Looking for the hindrances to the revealing of the self.
... Here is my story: ...
Thank you for sharing this, Ravi. For me as an european it is moving to hear this story of your life in your indian religious culture. I don't know of any comparable vita here. Very interesting, very moving.
... My earliest recollections of him was when he used to sprinkle water on our face in the morning whenever we were late in getting up. ...
I remember many of my own awakening experiences as a child as not as being that soft.
Brothers,
I have found a moving exhortion on surrender by Swami Ramadas.
"
God Is Behind Everything
The only way to be always happy is to submit to God’s will and leaving everything to Him, to be contented tin the condition in which He places us. Surrender means inner contentment and peace. It means giving up of the ego-sense. Until the ego-sense is completely eliminated, we cannot realize God.
Self Surrender means that we throw the whole burden of life, our anxieties and sorrows on the Supreme Lord who is the Master of all and keep our mind filled with calmness and peace that comes from His constant remembrance.
Cling to the Lord in all situations. Do not worry about anything. Have complete trust in God. Give up all superstitious notions. Do not mind the opinions of the world around you. Court only the society of the pure and noble souls. Whenever changes come in your life, take them that they come by God’s Will alone. Take to the changes naturally and cheerfully.
We are ever under God’s care and protection. We are never forsaken. God is all Love. We have doubts about this because we are not conscious of His Love. Let us know once for all that He is our sole refuge. We are ever watched over, guided and lovingly taken care by Him. So let us surrender ourselves to Him, keeping up His remembrance always.
Surrender to God as you are. It is not that we must purify ourselves first and then go to Him. He must purify us. We must go to Him as a child goes to its mother. If the child goes to her in a dirty condition, the mother does not turn it away nor ask it to come clean. She herself takes the child and bathes it clean. God is more loving than the earthly mother.
When we surrender to God and allow ourselves to be guided by Him, all obstacles that come on the way are found to be helpful and beneficial to our progress. Life is a battle for all. There is joy in winning as well as losing the battle. Let your heart be ever in tune with God. Then winning and losing are seen as the play of the Divine.
Some persons say that surrender is a sign of weakness. Ramdas says it is the path of the strong. Surrender is not so easy as people seem to think. It is very hard to eradicate the ego-sense. Surrender is only way to root out the ego. It is the straight path which leads to God.
Really, man has no will of his own. There is only one Divine Will at work everywhere and in all. It is a mistake to think that we, as individuals, have got any power to do anything. God is behind everything. His power does all things. If we know His power alone active in us and submit to Him, we shall be free from the ego-sense and realize that we are the infinite, universal spirit.
Know once and for all that, as an individual actor, you do not exist. It is the one Divine shakthi or power that controls and guides all movements and changes in the world. You are the instrument actuated by God’s Power; you are the very expression of God – nay, you are God himself!"
Thank you for this text, Murali.
"Surrender means inner contentment and peace." = Fight anger and restlessness.
"We have doubts about this because we are not conscious of His Love." = Avidya. Seeing the world and ourselves as something being separated from Him.
"Do not mind the opinions of the world around you." = Overcome the world, the self-doubts.
"Surrender to God as you are. It is not that we must purify ourselves first and then go to Him. He must purify us. We must go to Him as a child goes to its mother. If the child goes to her in a dirty condition, the mother does not turn it away nor ask it to come clean. She herself takes the child and bathes it clean." = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"When we surrender to God and allow ourselves to be guided by Him, all obstacles that come on the way are found to be helpful and beneficial to our progress." = Divine knowledge - nothing is separated at all; "Already the first step on this path is pure joy"
"Some persons say that surrender is a sign of weakness. Ramdas says it is the path of the strong. Surrender is not so easy as people seem to think. It is very hard to eradicate the ego-sense." = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They who have started with that truly know the meaning of this.
Ramos,
"Thank you for sharing this, Ravi. For me as an european it is moving to hear this story of your life in your indian religious culture. I don't know of any comparable vita here. Very interesting, very moving. "
Thanks Ramos!
Murali,
Thanks very much for your gems from PAPA!Just to think of papa is to bask in his toothless childlike innocence and Love!Great soul!What a Life!His Autobiography is without Parallel-In Quest of God-available as a download from anandashram site:http://www.anandashram.org/html/text.html.
A must read is papa's -In The Vision of God-a followup to the 'In quest of God'-A Glorious story of a carefree Abandon,adventure filled life in Total Surrender!Simply Moving!Truly a Classic!There has not been a better exemplar of Surrender than Papa!Entertaining,Adventurous,moving and intensely Human.
Thanks very much Murali for stirring these deep symphonic strains!
Ramos,
Your !!!!!! said it all!Just download this ebook and you may not be able to keep your eyes of it.Also download Video Clips of papa.Wondeful.Do download the Ram Mantra that papa used to chant!This is also available in the download section.
Salutations to you!
Jupes/Ramos/Friends,
I am listing the Books that have deeply benefitted me:
I am listing the Books that are truly inspirational for all devotees.You may add to the List.
1.The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
2."Arivuk Kanale Arutpunale"-The Life of Sri Ramakrishna and Vivekananda-By Sri Ra Ganapathy.(Tamil-One of the Very Best.Ganapathy is a wonderful writer and a great sadhaka)
3.AMMA-The Life of Sri Sarada Devi-by Sri Ra Ganapathy-one of the Most Inspirational Ever!In the whole Spiritual Firmament ,Sri Sarada Ma is Rarest of Rare Flowers.(TAMIL)
4.The Eternal Companion-The Life Of Swami Brahmananda and is Teachings.(Rakhal was regarded as Sri Ramakrishna's Spiritual son)
5.Self-Realization by Sri BV Narasimhaswamy-The Life and Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi
6.Day By Day with Bhagavan-by Devaraja Mudaliar(similiar to The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna)
7.Letters from Sri Ramanashramam-by Suri Nagamma(One of the Very Best and intimate account on Bhagavan)
8.A Search in Secret India-by Paul Brunton(A work that brought the greatness of Sri Ramana to the World at large)
9.At The Feet of Bhagavan-By T K Sundaresa Iyer(A Beautiful Gem )
10.A Sadhu's Reminiscences-By Sadhu Arunachala (Major Chadwick)-A clear view of Sri Ramana's wonderful Life and Teaching.
11.Living By The Words of Bhagavan-The Wonderful Biography of Sri Annamalai Swamigal-One of the Greatest Exemplar of Guru Bhakti.
12.The Autobiography Of A Yogi-Sri Yogananda-One of the All time Classics!
13.In Quest OF God-Papa Ramdas(Autobiography of Papa Ramdas,one of the mot Lovable of all Saints)
14.In The Vision Of God (Vols I & II)by Papa Ramdas(One of the Most Inspirational Ever)
15.Daivathin Kural-8 or 9 Volumes of the Sage Of Kanchi.(His recounting of the Lives of Other Saints is a Classic.)
16.Light,Power and Wisdom-By Swami Sivananda(A handy Little Gem of a Book that Teaches the basics and essentials of spiritual Living in a Clear,Forthright manner).
17.The Biography of Sri Amritanadamayi Ma.(Wonderful Life!A Saint quite similiar to Sri Ramakrishna/
18.Iswara Darshan-Auto biography of Tapovan Maharaj-Guru of the Swami Chinmayananda.
19.Wanderings in The Himalayas-By swami Tapovan Maharaj-A wonderful book that speaks about how a Realised soul sports in the world.
I had prepared this List about a year back.Just found it and here it is!
Salutations to you!
... !His Autobiography is without Parallel-In Quest of God-available as a download from anandashram site:http://www.anandashram.org/html/text.html.
A must read is papa's -In The Vision of God-a followup to the 'In quest of God'-A Glorious story of a carefree Abandon,adventure filled life in Total Surrender! ...
This book I own even in German, Ravi. It contains "In quest.. " and "Vision...". There was a time when I read it over and over again. Time to refresh this! I will download the english version and will have a look at it.
Dear brothers, is here somebody who could translate this mantra from Vasistha's Yoga (Swami Venkatesananda) into English?
"himadrer uttare parsve karkati nama rakaasi
viaucikabhidhana sanamna ′py anyayabadhika
om hram hrim srim ram viaiusakttaye namo bhagavati
viaiusaktti ehi enam hara hara daha daha hana hana paca paca
matha matha utsadaya utsadaya dure kuru kuru svaha viaucike
tvam himavantam gaccha gaccha jivasara candramaidalam gato
′si svaha"
Jupes,
I am hesitantly launching into this intimate aspect of Bhakti-I invoke the guidance of the Guru to help me express myself simply and clearly.
Thanks for expressing yourself clearly-“It would be useful to hear more about how to discover oneself through dwelling in compassion, joy, and love”. Just want to state Jupes that Love, Compassion and Joy is you! There is no ‘oneself’to be discovered!
We are using words to describe this; it will be helpful to understand to understand the words in relation to Emotion, Feeling and awareness.
Emotion---leads to---------------->Feeling----leads to------------>Awareness.
We start at the emotional level, go to the Feeling Level and then land in pure Awareness; Using words is not helpful-so we may take to nonverbal cues to explore this-what better way than music to do this. I am sure you will be familiar with Western Classical music. We will take the cues from a few familiar pieces so that we communicate better.
We take for instance a Symphony no.6 of Tchaikovsky(or any other symphony of his)or a Mahler Symphony and compare it say with Schubert’s Eighth-The theme after the question mark theme-played by the woodwinds-an ethereal one ,wistful,floating,vulnerable!What is the difference ?Tchaikovsky drains ones energy, is extroverted, exhibitionistic-is at an emotional Level-whether joyous, pathetic, whatever be the emotion represented .The Schubert one is at the Feeling Level-takes one inward, does not drain energy.
Similarly we may identify the feelings of Yearning by say Beethoven’s Minuet in G-(This cue was given by Paul Brunton in his excellent book-In quest of the overself)-a gentle nostalgic dreamy theme full of longing-that constitute a search for something not known!
We may take Schubert’s Ave Maria-we know what love, compassion means! We are able to understand the compelling power of this theme that unifies us and makes us whole. We are freed from the tyranny of thoughts and are more in touch with ourselves. When the piece ends do we find ourselves just limpid and surrendered! This is the state of awareness.
I will finish here and I will request you to do one exercise(If you want to)-you expressed this-“I would also like to say that some of the other emotions you mentioned, such as fear, anger, and sorrow, have been extremely useful for me in discovering my own self and in forging pathways into deeper places inside of me. I consider those feelings to be friends, and if indeed I do 'lose myself' in those feelings, it is only temporarily. It is those feelings that eventually lead me to love, to joy and to compassion, and it is this interfacing of different types of feelings that somehow keeps me in motion and feeling alive.”
Jupes, I would request you to examine at what level would you place the above statement –at the Emotional level, at the Feeling Level or at the Awareness Level. I will move to the Final part after I receive your feedback. Please feel free to decide whether you want to do this or otherwise. I am only exploring this with you.
In my final instalment, I wish to share my understanding of the ‘Arunachala’attraction that Sri Bhagavan felt even much before the death experience; also I will share my way of invocation that leads one inwards.
Thanks very much.
Salutations to You!
Very dear Ravi,
Your three long posts have been received and read and I thank you most sincerely for all. It is truly moving and interesting to read of your background, all the various influences, especially your grandfather, and at such an early age. What a difference between your own religious culture and what I grew up with!!! You have been surrounded by opportunities and experiences that I have only dreamt of or seen in movies. It is truly wonderful to read all this.
Thank you also for the list of books. I will keep this and use it.
Now, moving to your post on the 'intimate aspect of Bhakti'... I like your music analogy very much and it's something we can all relate to. It gives me a definite sense of what you mean when you speak of the Bhakti approach. About being aware of what one feels and following those feelings inward. About not indulging so much in letting one's emotions run rampant and wild, as with Mahler or Tchaikovsky, but instead, taking the emotions inside, as with Schubert, and feeling them, letting them guide one to deeper insight and awareness. This is similar to what Clemens was saying about holding on to the unpleasant feelings and allowing pain to be transformed so that it is no longer a hindrance to revealing the Self.
Regarding your proposed, optional exercise, I would like to respond to that, although it is not an easy one to answer. Here is what you said, to refresh people's memories: I will request you to do one exercise (If you want to)- you expressed this- “I would also like to say that some of the other emotions you mentioned, such as fear, anger, and sorrow, have been extremely useful for me in discovering my own self and in forging pathways into deeper places inside of me. I consider those feelings to be friends, and if indeed I do 'lose myself' in those feelings, it is only temporarily. It is those feelings that eventually lead me to love, to joy and to compassion, and it is this interfacing of different types of feelings that somehow keeps me in motion and feeling alive.”
Jupes, I would request you to examine at what level would you place the above statement – at the Emotional Level, at the Feeling Level or at the Awareness Level. I will move to the Final part after I receive your feedback. Please feel free to decide whether you want to do this or otherwise. I am only exploring this with you.
At different times I could probably place this statement at any one of those levels, depending on my state at the time. Sometimes my emotions lash out, and then I am definitely at the Emotional Level. More often, I take the emotions inside and feel them (Feeling Level), and occasionally that takes me to a state of greater awareness, and maybe even to the Awareness Level itself. So, if I had to place that statement at ONE LEVEL ONLY, I guess it would be the Feeling Level.
Ok, I will post this now and await your last installment. Very much looking forward to that. By the way, it's getting harder for my computer to load this page 2 of the Vichara thread, and the posting is becoming more cumbersome now that the thread has grown long again. Hopefully this will go through alright.
Thank you so very much, Ravi.
All the BEST to you!!
Before I post this I want to mention something I noticed while reading comments this morning. Two of them started out addressed to 'Brothers' and, although I'm sure no one intended to exclude women by using this greeting, I couldn't help but notice that 'Sisters' were not mentioned as well.
I have not been following this thread very well, but I noticed some discussion about whether the Guru "gives" the devotee enlightenment, focusing on whether this is a dualistic illusion. Well, of course it is, in that all language is made of subject, verbs, and predicates, so to say "Guru gives enlightenment to devotee" makes Guru a subject, enlightment a "thing" to be given, and "devotee" the object of the action of giving. If we treat all these things literally, of course this ensnares us in dualisms. But that only means we have to recognize the dualism of language and yet not be trapped in their literalisms.
The problem with this kind of statement is not the language of dualism per se, but the false concept that enlightenment is something that is lacking, which is separate from the devotee, and that the Guru supplies the devotee with this missing "enlightenment". This is of course not Ramana's teaching. He taught very clearly that the only thing the Guru does is eliminate illusions. He does not "give" enlightenment, he merely helps destroy the mind, the illusions by which we imagine that enlightenment was ever missing in the first place. So the Guru does not actually "give" enlightenment, he "takes away" the illusions of unenlightenment. He dispels darkness. He does not "give light". He does not give people a rope, he removes the illusion of a snake.
In effect, however, the taking away of an illusion amounts to very much the same thing as "giving" enlightenment. So it is fine in language to speak this way, as long as we understand that the process is a negative one of removal of illusions, rather than a positive one of the gaining of some "state".
Broken Yogi,
"In effect, however, the taking away of an illusion amounts to very much the same thing as "giving" enlightenment."
Words and expressions are always insufficient.As long as the aspiration is sincere,even if the concepts are not clear,it does not matter-every child has to learn to stand,totter before walking steadily.
Salutations!
Ramos/jupes,
Ramos wrote:
"At the end the extremes are touching each other. What means for example: Where there is a real deep feeling of angry and sorrow, there this feelings are going to be transformed into their **opposites**. But at first we need to hold onto this unpleasant feelings. The "pain". "
Jupes wrote:
"This is similar to what Clemens was saying about holding on to the unpleasant feelings and allowing pain to be transformed so that it is no longer a hindrance to revealing the Self."
What an understanding!Very Very True.I am truly amazed at your deep understanding and appreciation of these aspects.Ramos,Jupes-you are truly blessed.I am fortunate to be sharing these things with you and learning in the process.
There is a beautiful poem by The Great poet Subrahmania Bharati-(one of the Greatest poets of all times in my opinion-The sheer range of his poems is something like Beethoven-You have the 'Fur Elise' and you have the 'Fifth Symphony')!
It goes something like this(excuse my aplogy of a translation):
"How sour when unripe
How sweet when ripe(Mango)
How laid low in disease
How rejuvenated in redemption!"(course correction)!
My master recited this poem and recounted how when the poet recited it for his friends,there was just 'Silence'when it ended!Nobody could stir!
Thanks very much!
Namaskars!
... Before I post this I want to mention something I noticed while reading comments this morning. Two of them started out addressed to 'Brothers' and, although I'm sure no one intended to exclude women by using this greeting, I couldn't help but notice that 'Sisters' were not mentioned as well. ...
Thank you for this reminder!
... So we come back to our “deep sleep” illustration. Madhava specifically says the above holds good even in deep sleep. He says, that after deep sleep we say “I slept long and happily”. This shows that we who slept had awareness of the duration of time and the experience of happiness. And thus “subject-object” relationship existed even in deep sleep. ..
This is extemely interesting (whether “subject-object” relationship exist even in deep sleep) There is a statement of Sri Ramana in "Talks":
"But with regard to similar consciousness in the deep sleep, every person is known to say “I was not aware of anything; I slept soundly and happily”.
Two facts emerge from the statement (unawareness of anything and the happiness of sound sleep).
Unless these existed and were experienced in sleep they could not find expression by the same person in the waking state. Inference also leads to the same conclusion.
Just as the eye sees the darkness which remains enveloping all objects, so also the Self sees the darkness of nescience which remained covering the phenomenal world. This darkness was experienced when it (the Self) emerged in dots of supreme bliss, shone a trice and fleeted away in such fine subtlety as the rays of the moon which peer through the waving foliage.
*****The experience was however not through any media (such as the senses of the mind), but bears out the fact that consciousness does exist in deep sleep.*****
The unawareness is owing to the absence of relative knowledge, and the happiness to the absence of (seething) thoughts."
Ramos,
'Consciousness' is the term that Nisargadutta Maharaj uses to talk about subject object relationship and cognition.The Term 'Awareness' is used by him to mean the dissociation of the subject-object relationship -Like say in deep sleep we are not conscious of the objects-yet there is awareness-only it lies covered.In a Gnani,the awareness is present as in all the three states.
The Self Enquiry is to lead us into experiencing this 'Awareness'
Namaskar!
... Ramos,
'Consciousness' is the term that Nisargadutta Maharaj uses to talk about subject object relationship and cognition.The Term 'Awareness' is used by him to mean the dissociation of the subject-object relationship ...
Oh yes, I know this fundamental distinction very well.
"M: Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience."
I knew someone who said: "After 20 years of pondering on what consciousness is I found this simple distinction, and immediately it answeres all my questions."
... "Then to whom are you talking, dear Swamiji," asked Papa, ...
This stories are in my german edition too. I love them! They are so easy to understand: "He" and "I" = indescribable, mysterious Reality, transcending all opposites, containing all opposites. Unknown to the mind, known to transcendental intelligence (buddhi).
Ramos,
""M: Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience."
Thanks very much.You are a Ready Reckoner!You seem to produce all these things in a jiffy and in the RIGHT context.
Namaskars!
... .You are a Ready Reckoner! ...
... well, I don't know anything about this. I'm only doing "what mother nature ordains me to do" ...
Jupes/Ramos,
You can download The Gospel Of Sri Ramakrishna (Ramos will have it,this is for Jupes)as well as other great works of Vivekananda from this site.Look out for Swami Paramananda 's works-Path of devotion,etc.Also Sister Nivedita's books are a good introduction of Indian culture to western readers-Check out her CRADLE TALES FROM HINDUISM.
Please check this site:
http://www.vivekananda.net/Library.html
Namaskar!
.
Thank you, Ravi.
"Kathamrita" I found here:
http://www.kathamrita.org/
Ramos,
The Kathamrita in the site kathamrita.org is not Swami Nikhilananda's Translation with Alduos Huxley Foreword.Please check the site I have referred to ,The vivekananda one.This version is superior (English).
Namaskars!
... The Kathamrita in the site kathamrita.org is not Swami Nikhilananda's Translation with Alduos Huxley Foreword.P ...
Ah ok, thank you, Ravi!
Jupes,
Coming to our discussion on "bhakti" approach,I have left a post in the thread-The Greatness of the Guru!Time to return to that!
Please check it out!I hope that you will be able to reach there fast!
Namaskar!
Ramos,
The Nikhilananda's Version of Kathamrita is in HTML format.May be you can download and then convert it to pdf.
Namaskar!
.
Dear friends, there is an interesting article in mountain path, issue march 2008 - "Vichara's Double Bind", p.16.
It seems that this article reveals further interesting aspects related to vichara.
Unfortunately the print function of the shockwave applet embedding the mountain path issues didn't work. Perhaps this information is of interest for David? (I use Firefox and Safari under Vista - neither of them is printing).
.
Dear David,
How do you understand effortless self-enquiry with Bhagavan who stated that self-enquiry should be performed with the same intensity as that of a drowning man struggling for air. And with having the intense desire for liberation.
Dear nonduel,
It is true that Bhagavan used to call Self Enquiry, the easiest and the simplest method.
It is also true that He used to describe it as 'not a mere mental exercise, but an intense activity to keep the mind at its source'!
Arthur Osbourne, in his book, 'My Life And Quest' describes in brief, the technique.
I am at the moment in office, but if I remember right, it is on Page 154 or so.
Also, do refer to David's 'Be As You Are'.
What one could possibly infer about 'effortless' (I am sticking my neck out here) is the absence of any preparation. According to Bhagavan, one justs turns the mind to look at the source.
And once turned it, one needs to be vigilant. As Osbourne says, once the mind is trying to find the source, one uses 'the technique to ward off further thoughts that may intrude.
Can someone else elaborate please?
Dear Nandu Narasimhan,
Yes your memory is very good.
It is with the "intense desire of a drowing man" that I am asking. because intensity, implies an effort...see?
Sometime I am more "intense" after the enquiry Who Am I? A more intense desire for the answer.
I am trying to reconcile both in a way.
The dichotomy is with "intensity" and just "Being".
Nonduel/Friends,
My experience through the Bhakti approach is that the sadhana proceeds through three phases in a cycle-Inertia(here reading about the Life and Teachings of Great Saints,Satsangha,etc are the Practices),Aspiration(Intense but without insistence for any result)and Surrender(in a state of Awareness and relatively effortless).
From what I can make out ,it looks like this corresponds to the 'Intense activity' and 'Effortlessness'that you have referred to in your 'Vichara' approach.
As one moves his centre of Being to the Awareness level,it tends to become more and more effortless.
Namaskar!
nonduel said...
Dear David,
How do you understand effortless self-enquiry with Bhagavan who stated that self-enquiry should be performed with the same intensity as that of a drowning man struggling for air. And with having the intense desire for liberation.
* * *
Effort is needed to wrench attention away from objects and on to the subject. If this has been successful to the point where the 'I'-thought has begun to subside, then effort becomes redundant and possible even counter-productive. If the Self is pulling your mind inwards, go with the flow. Allow it to be pulled without interfering. If it chooses instead to wander around in sense objects and sense perceptions, then grab hold of it and point it in the right direction.
If you are with the Guru, mentally or physically, then the best thing to do is to remain quiet. If the restless mind has tricked you into leaving that presence, then make some effort to come home again.
Dear Nonduel,
My apologies. I went home and checked and Arthur Osbourne's description of Self-Enquiry is on Page 107.
On Page 154 is his description of another technique, a better description of which is found in the book on Annamalai Swami by David Godman - Living By The Words Of Bhagavan.
Interestingly, Arthur Osbourne's view is that the technique he describes on Page 154 of 'My Life And Quest' is that it is a mere beginner;s tool, to be followed in due course by Self-Enquiry.
But if I remember right, Annamalai Swami gives the 'I-I' technique far greater importance.
Bhagavan Himself said that utimately Self-Enquiry was the way.
David, it would be nice if you could clarify.
Nandu
Scott Fraundorf: I've had kind of a 'breakthrough' in my Enquiry, that I thought I'd post, and if it's good enough David Godman can put it up for viewing, or not depending on his discretion. There was a long period where little progress seemed to being made. Enquiry was always a struggle, and I tried many things to make it less of a struggle. I believe I made a misinterpretation of some of Maharshi's words. I was struggling against the outgoing tendency of mind to try to stay silent. But for this struggling, there needed to be two me's, one that was struggling to bring things back inward, and a me that had an outgoing tendency. So it was a neverending conflict that was never going to go anywhere. I think reading some of these different books edited by David Godman, No Mind I am the Self, and Nothing Ever happened. While Papaji, Lakshmana Swami, Saradamma all have the same ideology essentially as Maharshi, there are some differences in the way they approach the 'problem'. And I think hearing these different approaches helped. When i read the line "Search for the mind, to find out that there is no mind, this is the way to control thoughts" which is something Maharshi said in Talks, something clicked. As thoughts arise, instead of asking Who Am I? which I did initially, searching out the location in space that these thoughts are arising, in the head, in the chest, outside the body, where ever it seems they are. Literally where am I? Literally, seeking out the mind, this one that considers itself to be me. In that location there seems to be quietness, and I remain alert and present, and the outgoing tendency seems to disappear happily. The only big obstacle is the tendencies to feel the need when 1) I'm worrying or 2) I'm desiring that this outgoing tendency of the intellect is necessary and helpful, when infact it isn't. And as Annamalai swami said, when abiding in the Self, when things need to get done, the intellect will take care of those things on it's own. The only reason I felt the pull to post this, wasn't to prove that I'm so close to Enlightenment (well maybe there was a little of that egotistical motivation), when I probably have many more epiphanies left, before that state of happiness. I don't care if this gets posted. But I was excited, because for the last week, staying silent has felt more of a choice then a struggle, then it did previously, so I thought i'd share that. Regardless, I do feel that I have a deeper understanding of this philosophy then I did previouslly after alot of effort. I do have a tenuous understanding now, of how this tendency to desire for there to be a me that wants, and something that is wanted, whatever that thing is, seems to be the basis of duality. Also suddenly, this false I, or the mind, which is kind of funny to express like this, because the false I is not an object, it is what is considered to be me when I'm telling the story to myself or to others. As far as I'm concerned, the false I is me. That is why I'm afraid of death, or insanity, or not getting what I want, or losing what I have is because this I that possesses all these things is me. If it's reputation is ruined, or it accidentally drinks poison (which I won't, knock on wood), it's the one saying, "I'm afraid". It is what is even telling this story. When the mind, or the false I, or what I consider to be me, is redirected from going outward toward trying to figure out how to get what I want, or how to prevent what I fear from happening toward searching out the location of itself, it seems to merge and just be there at that place, kind of like turning a car around driving back down the street to the garage, where before it was like having a foot on the gas pedal and the break at the same time which is exhausting. Some of my novice thoughts on the matter.
Scott fraundorf:
Another thing that has become apparent to me, is the need to turn away from objects of fear, desire when they are acute, which is the hardest, most difficult time to do it.
It's hard not because it is technically hard but because of the lack of conviction that abiding in the Self is more rewarding.
I'm also noticing it is best not to repress the actual desire or fear infact it is best to feel the feelings fully, but to turn away from the objects the mind has latched onto.
During a panic attack, there is the belief that keeping the object of fear in view is some how being vigilant and protecting myself. I want to wait until there is the relief of certainty of knowing "things are alright" before I relax and turn inward.
Often things turn out to be alright, but then that vasana is still present, it is reliant on an external knowledge of things being alright, it is conditional peace. That vasana is waiting for a new catastrophe to latch onto and worry about, and will for the next million years I guess, according to Papaji.
In that acute state of panic, turning away from the object of fear, the thing I think is scarey, the thing i think could go wrong, or the agent of that fear, leads to I believe a much deeper awareness of the Self.
In my case, a good example would be a few months ago when I thoughtlessly tasted a substance in a friend's fridge that turned out to be a lye paste. it wasn't enough to cause lasting harm, but my throat burned through the night. The severity of my panic attack was tremendous, and I didn't keep any kind of composure.
My enquiry suffered because I was sure that 'worrying' being vigilant, figuring out what I should do to 'survive' in my mind was better then forgetting the whole mental mess and abiding in the Self, letting come what may to the body. But if I'm serious about Realizing the Self, crisis' like that, there is probably no better time, because deep attachments that may be hidden and subconscious, and not easily accessible come into clear view in moments like that, to be done away with then and there.
Scott Fraundorf:
I had an interesting experience again, apologies if I'm hogging this thread, but no one else seems to be adding to it.
I was reading Maharshi on the phone to my mom. I have a tendency to read things I'm excited about to her, it was a beautiful passage from Talks about Surrendering and Trusting God, so what is the need to pray.
I mentioned the previous revelation about turning away from objects of fear when they are acute. I was doing that. But I also have noticed that merging with thought helps also. Because there is the tendency for me to be observing thought, which makes two mes. But if I abide where the thought is happening, that illusion goes away.
That passage put me in such a peaceful state, that I kind of fell into where effort was only needed sporadically to return there, and it was a thoughtless, blissful state. It came about when I stopped trying to repress thought, I just stopped striving.
I fell into it so deeply and started walking around Portland, and it felt like I was floating. I had no idea where I was going, nor care. What was left of the false I, commented that Self-Realization is well worth the price of not functioning in the world, and I'm willing to go there to see what will happen.
Big surprise, the way I came out of it, was that about 15 minutes later, my ego, but really the I that calls itself me started reasserting itself by claiming victory "I'm so close to Self-realization, ha, I'm almost a jnani", instead of repressing it I just let it. Although I was subdued, the ego had clearly reasserted itself, but with added awareness of it's tactics.
Why did that occur? Because I'm attached to the idea of 'accomplishing' something that others respect. Notice I said, "I'm so close to self-realization" That implies distance from the Self, how can that be? Obviously false thinking. This desire for accomplishing something that others respect is another vasana, another attachment to gently turn away from when it arises. The Self doesn't need my help or effort in revealing itself, it will do that, when I stop running away from it for something better, including my illusions of what it means to be a jnani and the respect and glory that comes along with that.
I've really put attention into getting out of the habit of Enquiry being repression of thought, or repressive at all, but the key word for me is a "turning away from" the objects of thoughts.
It seems that the thoughts can untangle themselves if they are not given obstacles of strong attachments, so "my" job as the mind is to turn away from strong attachments, not to find the Self. The Self isn't something to find since it is all there is, I'm starting to get that on a deeper then intellectual level.
Thought can take care of itself, it doesn't need me repressing it. But when attachments are strong, whatever they are, even if its the safety of the organism, turning away, maybe even just being the mind where the mind is. I'm finding that this is a very easy technique because when attachments which for me manifest as either desire or fear are acute, they are obvious. The only difficulty is conviction.
It is physically hard to repress thought, which I have done at times and called that Enquiry, and then seen over a long time that it is a neverending process although maybe one that occupies the mind from it's normal attachments, so not totally without value.
But turning away is a decision to not give attention to something, which is more akin to doing something else then smoking a cigarrette.
Duality and the ego seem to really rest on attachments, and are sustained by intense striving. The Self perhaps in contrast is a state of rest, and nonduality, merging will occur, not by effort, Herculean as what i call 'Enquiry' has been at times, it's more of a subtle shift. What occured yesterday was a subtle shift
Scott Fraundorf:
Deeply honest about motives:
Today, I've struggled with the depression end of the spectrum. I cannot understand why anyone would take up such a practice as enquiry other then being forced to it, maybe being extremely ripe, or just being born into a family where spiritual practice is part of the culture, or just wanting better relationships.
for me Inquiry, does not feel like a choice. Again to bring up that experience when i was 22 again. Why did I have it at all? Because it was the only way I could think to function, was to give up thinking so I could be perfectly natural (jnana drishti). In the process i awakened a storm i was not prepared for. i definitely was catching on to some of the things Maharshi describes at that time, but I denied them after I freaked out. I did see thought as being the source of alienation, neurosis, un-naturalness. I was trying to manually silence my mind, like I am now.
Now, I just know that it goes with the territory, that self-realization is a Huge Thing.
My motives for practicing Inquiry, or wanting Self-Realization are more intense then any I've been exposed to. It sounds like Lakshmana Swami, and Annamalai Swami were ripe, and had no interest in worldly things. My reason: Socially throughout my twenties I could not figure out what my problem was socially, especially romantically. I to some degree because of my life with my issues could see through people's egos, so my love of others was deep.
But courtship, and romance require being able to read signals of invitation, interest. I haven't been able to, but they are absolutely a requisite for having romantic affairs, or in the West even becoming a householder
Ex: Girl in my apartment building wanted to hang out, but quickly lost interest. Nothing could happen.
The frustrating thing, is that I can read signals just enough to know that people I was attracted to were potentially flirting with me, but not well enough to respond in a way that they would know I was interested back. I could lay it all out "honestly", but in the romance of egos, that has not worked, it is a sign of weakness in the world of interacting egos, to use honesty as a tool. It may be virtuous even widely inspiring, but for social success, um, not, even in progressive circles.
I should add, friendship can be less of a problem. Friendships can be intellectual, there isn't the fear of commitment especially with someone who is disabled in some way, people can think I'm charming even though I'm oblivious to the interactions going on, I certainly can join in on interesting subjects. So friendship is less of a problem.
So I did not have an unworldy bone in my body. I wanted to live a 'normal life'. I'm not like any of those people in that regard. Wanting a normal life, but being denied it. I can only guess that this is my prarabdha, that destiny, Isvara thought this was the best for me to progress spiritually, or for some other reason, or maybe just Evolution and biochemistry, and I'm not in the "fit" part of the Bell Curve.
I have no idea whats true, maybe I did some very unvirtuous things in my last life. I doubt that, because i've always been pretty naturally virtuous and caring. And I've never been the slightest bit materialistic.
This does explain why I would have had a glimpse of hte self at 22, and why I'm practicing Inquiry so intensely now. If I can continually turn away from the outward going mind, there is no reason with a little help from the grace that is present, why I shouldn't Realize Self Awareness, become a jnani, what have you. I just have to give up wanting things, namely deep, commited, intimate relationships that aren't available to me anyway. Annamalai Swami and Maharshi both said, that anything will be forthcoming to a person who has no wants. I'm really intensely working on that. 9an oxymoron) If my desires could be fulfilled, if like everybody I know I had been in various relationships short term and long term as far back as high school, would I be working on realizing a desireless state, doubt it.
I just wonder what Maharshi would have had to say, I feel he would have had something to say. If I lived in the 30s, I would have moved to Ramana Asram, did chores, whatever it took, until I was firmly established.
My ego is so unstable, so on the edge, I think it wouldn't take very long in the presence of a jnani to finish the task of destroying my mind. I think my experiences have been destabilizing enough to any kind of certainty my ego would have in the world. I'm not bragging when i say, I'm possessed of alot of humility, but it's because life experiences have cultivated this in me. My ego can't take any certain steps in the world, because it can't really grasp the situations going on around it. It invents delusional reasons lacking evidence. My ego is struggling, looking for hope in relationships with other egos. But not finding any.
I'm the only Asperger's diagnosee I know that so intensely wants to be Enlightened, wants to be selfless, wants to be without an ego, because I don't want anything in the way of pure connection with the moment. So there must be some purpose in this, I'd like to think that maybe something is driving me to Self-Realization, and that that isn't just another egoic delusion, that there is hope. If feeling like I'm drowning, or on fire, coming up for air, or running for the nearest lake are what it takes, I near have that motivation.
Egoic life, from the outside, actually looks really good for most people. And that is probably why even though there are alot of un-earnest people who profess interest in things spiritual, it's just another accessory to add to their sense of being an individual. Hence the people in Ramana Ashram who immediately involved themselves in politics. There egos were doign well, why would the let Ramana kill their egos.
Scott,
Friend,
"My ego is so unstable, so on the edge, I think it wouldn't take very long in the presence of a jnani to finish the task of destroying my mind. I think my experiences have been destabilizing enough to any kind of certainty my ego would have in the world. I'm not bragging when i say, I'm possessed of alot of humility, but it's because life experiences have cultivated this in me. My ego can't take any certain steps in the world, because it can't really grasp the situations going on around it. It invents delusional reasons lacking evidence. My ego is struggling, looking for hope in relationships with other egos. But not finding any."
Suppression of feelings never works.It requires great courage to even recognise this for oneself-more so to see that this persists.
No Master can give Realisation to an unprepared mind.The soil of one's mind has to be tilled,the weeds of wasteful thoughts have to be pulled out,the seed of aspiration has to be sown,watered by one's devotion,to which the Fertliser of Holy Company(Satsangh with other like minded souls,Reading the lives and teachings of Great souls-Parayana)has to be added,and with all this one should stand guard and await the development patiently.
The surest signs of progress will be that one does not recall the past,is quite content and happy in the present;No regrets for the past,no worries about the Future-It is no sign of progress to labour after glimpses of the Self or aim for it.If one want such glimpses of the Self,every one has had such glimpses-may be awakening to a quiet morning to the sounds of birds chirping,a moment of quiet contentment when one wants nothing,and as Baxista has said in the quiet interval between two successive thoughts,etc.Most of us would have experienced this,yet we may be thinking about THE EXPERIENCE!The one which others have not!
Self Enquiry can be productive only if the necessary preparation is there.From Emotional instability,one must graduate to emotional stability.Yes,there are exceptions but they are fewer.No need to feel that one has fewer opportunities in the world to forge human relationships.Nothing is more productive than to Forge relationships with all the Great Masters through their Books.
Friend,Please take this as coming from another traveller on his way-with a lot of learning to do .
Today is Mahatma Gandhi's Jayanthi Day(Birth day).
Wishing you all the very Best.
Since today is Mahatma Gandhi's birthday, may I ask a question?
Does anyone know of a Mahatma Gandhi archive, or a person, who could provide me with information on Maurice Frydman's relationship with Gandhi? I have collected all the mentions from Gandhi's Collected Works, and I have also gone through Apa Pant's account of the Aundh village-democracy experiment, a political project on which Frydman, Pant and Gandhi were actively involved. Any additional information would be very helpful.
Scott Fraundorf:
In response to Ravi, I don't know whether I'm ripe or not. Agreed, also that emotional stability is probably a stage and better then emotional instability. Definitely through enquiry the times of emotional stability increase, and then I fall out of it.
At the same time, the hard lesson I've went thorugh, like any disability, have freed me from the notion of certainty, and after the experience when I was 22, I have never had the same certainty that the "external world" was not an illusion. I also learned that what was true for me, is not true for anyone else. If the way I perceive, and function, and think could be changed so drastically.
Yesterday, I had a moment of emotional instability, and it does seem to be either toward objects of desire or fear. One or the other.
the thing I notice, or seem to notice, is that for alot of other people there is the being caught up in things obstacle to knowing themselves. I'm a lot more comfortable being myself, and looking inward, because I never got pulled into the game as intensely. I had to find my own answers. Similar to having some of the crutches knocked out from under me. The collective game that people seem to be sucked up in, rewards it's own version of "sane" emotional instability. And I had my own version of emotional instability that I'm getting out of the habit of.
That is true for spirituality also. There is spirituality, as in earnest effort to know oneself, whether or not it succeeds, it is atleast sincere.
There is spirituality, the role, from reading some of these books, sadhus can be sometimes acting out a role as opposed to being genuinely earnest sometimes. I don't view that as wrong, or that they should do something different, but it's not a departure from the normal ways egos interact. And certainly the tendency for people to get caught up in Ashram politics in Living by the Words of Bhagavan. And priests in many religions can sometimes be playing out a role, as supposed to deeply searching for what is true.
In that sense, I was trying to articulate that it seems to me, the ego functions through "knowing" what is true, "knowing" what it perceives. While the emotional instability created by my learning to cope with autism is no way in itself a pre-requisite for spiritual progress. I think the uncertainty that it created in me definitely is. Because I don't trust what my ego knows, and I don't trust myself to "understand" the world. So my illusory personality is walking on ice. And my experience when I was 22, where I fell down the Rabbit hole so to speak, unasked. For a brief moment I saw without the lense of my illusions, and then freaked out about it a week later. Now, a week later, when my perceptions were so magically grandiose and supernatural, and I would hear harmonics from birds wings, or see different aspects of people's faces, or be terrified by ugly intentions, that was my ego struggling to regain control, because it had slipped. So no, that glimpse wasn't just an appreciation of birds chirping, although in the months that followed, I had a much deeper appreciation, because it certainly opened me up in a way that could never really close down again.
When people talk with "certainty", I almost want to laugh and make fun. Because usually what they are saying is just a string of logic. that is why it was such a revelation to me that jnana means knowledge. Because people always say, "I know" when they mean "I think" or "I have an opinion". Often what they know isn't even remotely true even within maya. I'm grateful that my certaint has been shaken up, and I can look out on the world without trusting thoughts, and imagination, or even what I see. And I certainly laugh at intellectual knowledge, or quoting this or that saint to win an argument about some trivial aspect of spirituality. Why? Because I used to be obssessed with that kind of stuff myself.
When Annamalai swami was bathing Maharshi, and Maharshi was talking about ganja and hugged A.S., that moment there, how A.S. described it, that seemed very much what happened when I was 22.
I obviously wasn't ready for it, or ripe, the freaking out was just as inevitable as the experience itself.
the reason that experience happened for me, without knowing anything except a few misc. facts about buddhism was because my ego was on such shaky ground, it would try to do something in the world, some agenda, and it would end badly, I would become aware of how out of touch I was. People with more adapted brains, whose agendas were fruitful to them, didn't have that advantage, and I've talked to many people who are absolutely certain that what they think is true, and have very set notions of what the world is, when they gossip about others, what they say about those people is fact not fancy.
A friend of mine said that before that experience I always talked about the books I had read and philosophers i was obsessed with, and that she found it kind of annoying. After that I couldn't abide in that kind of intellectualism anymore, I had been touched by something too graceful for that.
I don't know if I will realize the Self, but it is proving day in and day out, that my uncertainties in functioning in the world, understanding nonverbal communication, and politics, are an asset in this endeavor. Whether it's my alienation from social politics, school politics, counterculture politics, or spiritual politics. It is an advantage.
Scott fraundorf:
Continuing in that vain, on that experience when I was 22, I have all these memories from that time, and it is an unusual experience, that I still haven't heard described anywhere else.
It certainly seems to bear on or be related to the subject of self-realization. And again, I do believe it was somehow related to me struggling very hard to function socially like everyone else and coming up short. Not in a "I just have some social insecurities", but more in I was figuring out the dynamics of how to have a conversation.
And because i was influenced by the Anarchist movement "kill the cop in your head". I was taking a two prong approach. On one hand trying to cease thinking and get peaceful, on the other take drastic efforts to function socially, and have grand adventures with others. "this time I would get a girlfriend". i think in a sense it may have been the commitment to the second approach tht led to the freak out afterwards.
That is the difference now, I'm just taking the first approach, realizing that the other approach, overcoming alienation is contained in seeing myself first, I will see the whole world as the self, there are not two people.
But i was thinking about one interesting anecdote about this experience that is in response again to Ravi. Ravi I believe suggested, although I may be wrong, that when I get up in the morning and savour bird song, or am happy just being, that those are glimpses as well. I don't need to have this grand notion of an experience only I had, he said i believe.
There is definitely enjoyment of bird song, of mountain views, of rivers and streams that is the ego, when "I" am enjoying. Who is this I? is an obvious response. Definitely there is the deep enjoyment in just being, that is always present, but it is masked by "I" claiming I am enjoying these "experiences". I'm saying this because the thought has distracted from these things, for me. And also there is the desire to hold on, to what is just a memory, Remember it was so peaceful when I was just sitting by that stream enjoying things.
When I had that phenomena, I mentioned, for a long while, I would start to get peaceful. the problem was that as I started to get peaceful, really, truly, everything would become completely unreal, but most of all I would see that I am unreal. That is when I would panic, I would run to my friends at the time, rambling in the upmost panic, that I was losing my mind. I thought I was schizophrenic, although some of my better friends assured me that I should be grateful for these experiences. This all because as soon as I got peaceful, I would start to cease to exist, I would start to sink into a peaceful nothingness, and the world would start to disappear, not that I wouldn't see things, but this experience has shown me in a way,t aht clearly many others have not had, that what I see is so inextricably woven with this concept of me, and this vast concept of world. That was what was dissoluting to me.
I could not convey how grand the perceptions were, once the I would rise up in panic again. Clearly, again, it showed me that the world is an illusion. Maybe it was the I trying so hard to prove it's existance, that it created sights, sounds so much greater then normal sights and sounds. Colors were vivid like heaven, birds flew by like oragami, as if I was painting the world. There was a Robin Williams movie about heaven, it was something like that.
I remember one example where I was in a bathtub, and I was so happy, a brief intermission from my panic. And I thought problem solved, suddenly this tangible feeling that I was disappearing, it was like everything was going dark, or free fall, only I could still see the room, only that once I started to panic, the distance to the top of the shower might loom above me, the death metal music later that night, might cause everyones faces to have a sinister evil appearance. Everything was so magically grand, in a way, that if I could show it to others, most people would not believe. and I do think many people's concept of spirituality, is something far safer, where they somehow survive, but just become wiser without themselves or the concept of I having to disappear.
I think my resistance to this was being softened up. Because now I welcome such experiences when the I starts to fade. It's not as often as it was then, ironically. why? Probably because I'm chasing it. when I didn't want it, I was having glimpses of what some people maybe call the "Self" all the time, or atleast experience the "falling in". Only for me it was like climbing up out of a well, over and over again. So far, I only know of people who, became Enlightened (maharshi, papaji), became Enlightened after alot of effort (annamalai swami), had a glimpse (Broken Yogi), or is absolutely certain the world is real, and everythign they think about everything is true.
I know of no one else, that the Self has tried to pull them in repeatedly, and they succesfully fought for their life over and again, I believe something like that was the case. I might very easily wonder if I'm one of the only people this has ever happened to.
I've talked to several "spiritual" people through e-mail, who take this condescending tone when I talk about these experiences. Saying, "Well, it's not like when someone's enlightened they aren't a part of the world and interacting with people". Trying to minimize Self-Realization
From these experiences, I can say that I have alot of confidence that it is true. self-realization is not of the world of interacting individuals,it is not a mundane experience of happiness, it is not a little joy. But it's hard to explain, because I couldn't explain why I felt like I was ceasing to exist at those times, because I was still lucid, I was still talking to people, to them, I still seemed real, tangible. But for me, myself, and the whole world was becoming like the rainbows when gasoline mixes with water, including bird song. But trees, and bird song, suddenly became prominent, where before urban environments were prominent, the city, Olympia where I was became a forest, all I noticed were birds, and trees, looming over buildings.
Of course the i was still present, and was very not O.K, with this sense of dissolution, however peaceful it might be, I would rather exist in great panic and fear, and know that I'm real, that the world is real, that my friends are real. to a jnani none of these are real, and neither is birdsong.
Scott Fraundorf:
Actually on the subject of Inquiry, right now and in neurophysiology (one of my classes) on brains and neurons, I feel this subtle euphoria, and I can't stop grinning. It doesn't have a purpose, but it's less like joy on getting something, and more like having a laugh at a really good joke. But I couldn't help but think of Maharshi, or Papaji's smile.
This happiness, that even writing about doesn't detract from, makes it so the urge to "go out and do something" is way reduced. Normally I'm on some subtle level thinking, "how do I get myself a social life?", or many other thoughts.
The need to think is alot less when there is this spring of happiness and contentment, here and now. I imagine jnanis always feel like this, and it might be part of why there is no question of the mind arising and going out to an imagined "external world". The source of contentment is inside.
When I don't feel this happiness, Inquiry is somewhat and maybe neccessarily a repressive action of the urge to say these thoughts "are me". It probably would be ideal if it wasn't repressive, but when I can only see that thought, it's best to reel in the fishing line by any means. Best of all, it seems to not identify with the thought. The mind is not me, as A.S. pointed out. Even though I'm attempting Enquiry as I write, my attempt at advaita is internal, if I feel the urge to post a comment, I post a comment. The universe or David Godman can sort them out. Maybe tomorrow I'll be a luddite
Again, and like always I'm not stopping there. Since the urge to go out isn't completely gone, and there is still a necessity of maintanence. But I also don't want to hold on. Just be, if the euphoria leaves, I'll let it go.
Another thing, functioning in the work-a-day school world is far from reduced, infact without all the distractions, and exhaustion, I can be completely present and joyfully pay attention to what is being talked about, and I don't prize one subject over the other, so all subjects become a treat. I also don't prize one activity over another, so I'm not thinking about being out drinking with friends while doing physics/calculus homework, or vice versa.
The teacher was one that I disliked in the past, but I felt I only saw what was good in him, naturally. And the mood in the room was more jovial in all my classes then previously. The distinction between me and the class, is a hard distinction to make. Is my successes at finding happiness within, causing others to be happy, whole classes even. Or am I just noticing happiness more. It transcends such divisions. Or maybe, the class is me, and I am the class, and all is Brahman.
Scott,
I think youre expereince of fear in the face of the Self is fairly common, though maybe not usually so drawn out. Here's a good quote from Saradamma that might apply:
"When devotee say, "I surrender", or "I want Self-Realization", they may think that this is what they want, but deep down, at an unconscious level, their ego wants to continue indefinitely. When they sit with [Lakshmana] Swamy in darshan and their minds start to sink into the Heart, they panic, and their minds are gripped with a fear of their own extinction. I can see this fear in devotee's eyes and I sometimes notice that they have problems with their breathing as well. The breath comes in short spasmodic gasps, and only when the mind rises again does the breathing resume its normal rhythm. Devotees may think they want realization, but their minds are not ready enough or pure enough to withstand the shock. People ask for grace to realize the Self, but the grace of the Guru is given in measured quantities, and the quantity never exceeds the devotee's capacity to assimilate it."
I had an experience of this fear once long ago in my first real "spiritual" encounter with Ramana. One night I called upon Ramana, and was overwhelmed as His overhwelming Presence suddenly entered the room, entered my body, and seemed to be swooning me to death. At a certain point, I became very afraid, I felt I was actually going to die, and I( said to him, "Wait, I'm not ready for that yet", and His Presence gently eased off, and rather than pressing me down into death, He just stayed with me in silence for the next two hours. I didn't go neurotically crazy after that as you may have, but perhaps that's because I was already neurotically crazy, and who would have been able to tell the difference?
BTW, are you a student at UC Santa Cruz? My son is a sophomore there, and I occasionally travel down there to visit him. Perhaps some day we could meet up and talk, if you are interested.
Scott Fraundorf:
Thank you for your wonderful response, Broken Yogi. When I also read that quote in No Mind, I related with it deeply, saw myself in it, even the breathing difficulties. I think I may have been softened up a little since then, and a little less resistant.
Even more interesting, was that your experience, sounds exactly to the letter like an experience I had about 2 or 3 weeks ago. And I attributed it to writing Nome and getting a response, but maybe it was Bhagavan, the Self.
But that feeling of swooning bliss, I was lying down going to bed, and it felt really amazing and peaceful, but it felt like it was going to kill me, probably more accurately my ego, but perhaps it could have taken my body with it. I had the exact same response, I uttered, "Wait, too much, not ready", and it eased off. It's eerie how similar those experiences are.
I have had some other 'experiences' of swooning bliss like yesterday, always following a response from Nome, because my mind gets silenced. And each time I'm more receptive to it. I've decided anytime I hit a major stumbling block in my attempts at Inquiry, I'll write him.
Anyway now, I know someone else has had that happen, it's a thing. On the experiences I had in my early twenties, while definitely the Saradamma quote makes alot of sense in light of them, and I made that connection to, it could be that my experience is common.
But I still haven't heard it described, and as I was saying I think it may have to do with, or atleast I'm attributing it to an ego that is somewhat fragile from not getting on so well in the 'dog-eat-dog' world.
What I haven't heard descibred, was particularly the intensity of the visions, the worldly perceptions taking on such a grand element, people who've maybe had glimpses in the presence of jnanis, such as yourself, it may have been more stable. Since this was an unstable, and spontaneous glimpse, of someone who was really struggling, unhappy, it caused the world to become so much more vivid when the I awoke again, and wanted to get it's affairs in order, but couldn't.
That maybe is a difference, Saradamma, and Lakshmana, they don't give people more grace then they can handle, they ease people into deeper awareness, from what i gather. I fell down the rabbit hole so to speak far further then I was prepared for, and had to deal with the implications of that for years after.
Nonetheless, I think it was undoubtedly a good thing, and I wouldn't be so interested in Maharshi, Inquiry, etc. without that preparation of dealing with the illusoriness of the world, and myself. Infact it seems like it was perfectly timed for my maturity (note: I mean immaturity), almost as if Isvara really has written the script.
Thank you very much for your response.
Broken Yogi, I actually go to Portland State University.
Scott Fraundorf:
The ego is such a persistant problem with spiritual practice, but then i have to ask who is having that problem?
If someone asked who has a "subtle ego" associated with their practice, I'd ahve to immediately raise their (I meant my, but it's funny that I put their) hand.
Glorifying pitiful glimpses, wanting approval showered upon me, wanting to brag about some egotistical spiritual experience, hand out Pharisee advice, I'd have to say it was me, guilty as charged.
But I also have to let it go, that that vasana exists, it arises, and I see it, I don't repress it, I simply see it for it's ridiculousness. And alot of my Inquiry has taken on that character lately. I get really repressive still, intense in my (notion of) Inquiry, "I will get Enlightened!!!" My brow furrows, I create a peaceful, yet effortful stupor. Anyone else have that experience? In a way it helps because it does redirect me away from my "previous" and terrible habits.
But then I simply stop that nonsense, and let myself see without that lense that I'm creating. I have a feeling that although jnanis don't see, the way to become a jnani isn't to repress sight, repress thought ultimately. The urge to notice, to become inmeshed in those subtle/associations patterns of noticing, and being pulled in different directions, is fundamentally repressive of my Natural State.
Also a big problem, is the ability to use spiritual words that come straight from teh fishes mouth, the ego. Like on Desire For the Self, my own, and maybe others, words came clearly from the ego, and I realized my error. Our arguments were sound, logical, but that doesn't make them true.
The most huge breakthroughs I have in my Inquiry, are when I am truly threatened. When my whole notion of who I am is truly threatened, not when it's safe, but when it fears for it's life, when I fear for my life because of my association with false notions of WHO AM I! Or when I'm embarressed because I made an error, or guilty because I did something wrong.
Those are the best times, to see that this entity that keeps saying "me, me, me", is "not me"
And see that it is an irrelevent offshoot, an evil spirit that I conjured but with no magical powers lest I pretend that it has.
Some thoughts!
Scott Fraundorf:
Haramurthy's comments are still lingering. For some reason it drew me to the Society For Abidnace in Truth Website.
The doubt and conflict in me over the renunciation aspect of Inquiry has been heightened since reading his/her posts. I want to forget the world dive deep within, but I don't see much room for outward functioning in doing this.
But the pull of doing that is very, very strong. I have not functioned well externally, whether just because of autism or some other reason as well. My attachments are weak, my attachments have rejected me, rather then the other way around.
I just know as difficult as it is and as much external effort as it takes for me to do my school work, and how much that pulls me otuside of an inward inquiry, to my rational logical mind, I don't see how I could be taken care of.
We, here in America do not live in a sadhu culture, where would I go?
I would love to make school, and Inquiry work together, difficult.
When people speak of the difficulties of Inquiry, I imagine this is one of the biggest. Giving up everything, completley going within, forgetting the world, is not technically difficult. Technically, realizing the Self, is not difficult (in my ajnani, ignorant opinion), it's the outward commitments whatever they are that prevent it. Inquiry ultimately challenges those outward commitments. It is a bridge that I'm coming to. Why? Am I going to school. because I like food, I like shelter, I like being taken care of. Am I doing it for anyone else, is it coming from a natural egoless behavior? Definitely not. Is serious, earnest, intentional Inquiry (or attempts at it) in harmony with this outward goal? It's a forced alliance.
And it is exactly what Inquiry entails, a complete, and utter forgetting of the world, and our notions of it, it has to be complete. Would anyone disagree with that? Ramana rejected the vanities of this world. My functioning in this world is selfish, it's all about me. It's all about striving for pleasure, and comfort. It's built on slavery, and murder, and animal torture, it is at it's heart sinful, potentially evil. This is not a neutral society, it's a warmachine of murderers and rapists. (sorry for the intensity) One of my teachers kills animals for neuroscience. I don't judge, I'm a sinner, as an individual, which is why I no longer want to be an individual.
I have not functioned, i have been rejected again and again. There is nothing I have to hang onto. I want to let it all go. Stil undoubtedly I'm afraid.
So Haramurthy is right, for Self-Realization at some point that bridge has to be crossed, but it also can't be contrived. Many of the people who came to Maharshi, wanted to give up their lives for the outward apperance of giving up their lives, they wanted to make a display of being renunciates, for them, in my opinion, it seems he told them to continue with what they were doing, "If it was your destiny, the question would have never arisen?" (interjecting: It's obvious as I read this, of course not, because if the inner Inquiry, the diving within, had compelled them to give up their lives, no question would have arisen, there wouldn't ahve been a choice) because they weren't ready to make the inner jump that the outer jump is a mere symptom of. None of these jnani renunciates made any decision, they were compelled to do what they did. It wasn't a lifestyle choice, now I'm spiritual, now I want to get enlightened. It was an intense, undeniable calling.
This conflict in me, personally, has been heightened by 1) Haramurthy's responses, which were huge for me, and am pretty sure, taht there was something to that, that affected ajnani me so strongly. But I'm not going to speculate on the stature, maturity, egolessness of that person, non-person., it is irrelevent to my Inquiry.
2) This steady feeling, of what I believe is what is called grace. It's an extremely intoxicating overwhelming feeling that has lately been non-stop, and I feel like I'm being forced down a certain avenue, one that I definitely wasn't looking for, or interested in. I'm not an inherently spiritual person, I just want to be happy, and that is all I want. but this is the only way to be happy? Well, then that is a difficult dilemna with only one solution. The "grace", or whatever it is, all I can describe is that it is extremely intoxicating, at times a radiant bliss that makes me want to forget the world, it pretty much started when I e-mailed Nome, but I don't want to actually say Nome is the source, because the source is probably the Self. For the record, I have no interest in Enlightenment, I'm for the most part not bragging, and I find it an interesting phenomena, but it is also terrifying. Everything said about Guru's grace, Power to Enlighten, all the talk of jnanis is suddenly, very real to me. I set a ball rolling. Initiating sincere contact with a jnani, is a big deal, because they stay in contact, they find you, they gently guide you toward Self-Realization, and will make no concessions for your egos desire to survive. It is a gauntlet.
Haramurthy, or David Godman for that matter, I welcome, but do not expect your advise. Also David Godman, please correct me, if you see any glaring errors, arrogance in my point of view that needs pointing out. I want to be humbled, I think. ---In Over my Head! But pleased, that something, some force, the Self is showing signs of some kind of relationship with me. Is a very good thing.
Scott Fraundorf:
Yesterday I arrogantly said, "I'll realize the Self within the year". I can just imagine the sarcastic condescending comments that would get, or worse words of advise especially from Ravi (just kidding), or the embarressment of saying that on a David Godman blog whose spent enough time around them to know I'm not one of them, or near that "state"
Truth, is I'm not stupid, and I know that is not within my power to know, and for the most part I'm O.K with whatever happens within that arena.
My Inquiry seemed deep, thoughtless, and nondual at points yesterday. But who was saying that? It's very hard to tell. And because like Sphere I'm still within the 3-D projection of my own "meta-narrative", Enlightenment itself is part of the treadmill.
But this is the thing I notice, and that is that deep, seemingly nondual states are created when feelings of distress arise acutely, and the mind is brought back from the external cause of distress to the Heart, inward. It is hard for me to believe that it would take the decades to realize the SElf with earnest Inquiry, but that's from my own ignorant standpoint.
I also notice that when my ego arises, it often does things that are stupid, and I think it is a very not functional ego in alot of ways, delusional largely because of the variant of autism. So Inquiry is kind of this Imperative Ultimatum, that isn't really like a choice, but more like a gun to the head. Sure I could disobey the armed gunman telling me to look within, but I choose not to. And more over, the life my ego leads when it imagines an individual leading a life, is so unappealing, meagre, taht I'm really drawn to look inward and outward at that Life like a dream. Nome, who I don't know anything about did write me and agreed with David Godman, with the train, luggage quote. It is noteable that in some visceral, psychosomatic way, when Nome writes something I immediately realize it in a tangible way. So the feeling of the train carrying all luggage became very acute.
Oh yeah, the stupid thing I did yesterday was that I was in this Anarchist, Leftist student run cafe on campus, dressed hip because an Autism Specialist told me to, and I looked at the rack of zines. And quickly wrote out this terrible, and after the fact, 20/20 hindsight, way too negative thing on the fanatical fascist aspects of the Anarchist scene from an Asperger's point of view. I started to regret it, turned within, disidentified with the doer and the action, and looked inward. Because maybe, since it was honest it will serve some unknown purpose, and maybe I imbued it with some special significance by immediately turning within and attempting to abide in the Heart, in a way some of those actions feel like they become actions of the Self when I disidentify with them, and for sure there was something inspired about what I wrote, as terrible as it looked to me after I had realized what I had done.
I talked to a person yesterday about how since for some reason probably related to autism I have not been able to have romantic relationships, or anything in that domain of life, that I'm learning to find happiness within, and if anything happens because that happiness draws people in, that's fine, but whether it overcomes my social deficits is again out of my control, part of the script, that I'm attempting to Surrender and let play out. He seemed inspired.
My terrible writing at the anarchist cafe, that i regretted and disidentified with.
I have a Mental Illness called truth!
I am afflicted with some variant of Asperger’s Autism. It’s hard to know how to talk about these experiences in such a way that my words aren’t just reducing it to something less vibrant, less real then what it is.
It is a traumatic experience, to not fit in, that no matter how nice and earnest I behave, I will be rejected. It is truly humbling experience.
Because of it, I see things deeper then I would have otherwise. I don’t understand people’s behavior, but people’s character, I see deeply into.
I’m disappointed with the Anarchist Political, Music Scenes, and all the variants within. I wanted to find my people. There were no people that such a label could be attached to. There was no “my people”.
Instead what did I find, a largely fascist self-congratulatory movement, of people intent on not investigating into themselves what is true. Big words, big caring words, not a whole lot of actual caring, a lot of memory, a lot of ideology, a lot of words, a lot of grand narratives, a lot of interesting styles. A lot of social maneuvering, as much at a death metal punk show, as cocktail party with big wig businessmen, a lot of gossip, a lot who’s who in the Fortune 500 World of the Anarchist scene, who is a real activist? And why this person is stupid? And who’s that aloof person over there who doesn’t fit in, there must be something wrong with them. The Anarchist scene is fascist, because that is the tendency of humans to be fascist, and to react in a fascist manner, and take Words to be Reality and associate them with whole groups of people while missing what is going on in front of their own nose. Lower case compassion, with grand dramatic acts, whole new organizations with more well spoken facilitators name dropping their activist careers. but not Upper Case Compassion, finding out that the true self below words Is That. That it takes no effort to love, did it in Kindergarten? That was the only time my peer group were actually humans and not murderous arrogant, fanatics, whether Republican or Anarchist, we hate eachother now.
But will people become nicer, less abusive through this? No, because it is abusive in itself. The divisions people draw, I can see are clearly not true, are egotistical, self-aggrandizement. Do I judge the people? No. I could just as easily be judged. I’m not a better human being.
Will animal testing stop through these grand fascist narratives? Clearly not. Rape? Clearly not. The individuals have to change deeply, investigate deeply into their own motives, and not rest at the superficial Word Level. If one anarchist truly cared, the Military Industrial Complex would collapse. If one Gender-Queer Identified person really cleared away their self-concepts of gender, gender based abuse would stop. If one forest defender, was more then playing a role, wearing Carharts, Old Growth Forests would repopulate the entire continent, and loggers would be employed tree lovers. I really believe these naieve sentiments I just spouted, because I’ve seen deep enough to know that the Word Level, that most of us exist at is, is extremely superficial, and below that and one glance could send a mass murder crying with remorse. I believe this Power exists, I believe I’ve seen it.
And I’m not going to enter the either/or debate politics of Pascism/Violence, ProLife/ProChoice, Gay Marriage/No Gay Marriage. Pascifism/Violence is the Anarchist Version of the Mainstream Media’s tendency to package bad questions and bad answers that create unnecessary divisions. Either/Or, pretty soon we see people as Either/Or. Jewish/Gentile, and it becomes O.K to kill over our Straitedge/Drinker petty divisions. And when I say kill, I mean kill. So I’m not going to enter into the clearly definable debates that make us feel safe in taking a safe, clearly defined position.
But I wanted to call attention to the superficiality I see, from my Asperger’s Autism, fitting into the Anarchist Subculture,as much as I did with my middle school peers. Laughed at, ridiculed, rejected. Anarchist Subculture, could be so much more, could be Real Change, but it isn’t. It’s a subculture of friends, it’s dating gossip, it’s a lot of things someone with any degree of autism is going to have trouble with, be excluded from. It’s not Real Change, I wish it were. I wish these were my people. I wish the sexually assaulting Gender Queer person were not the one all the Feminist Dykes accepted, excluding me because I didn’t play by the rules of the Binary in dress, and acted kind aloof, different. Makes me realize that Anarchists in all their shades are just as much Nazi Party Members as Republicans. And I mean that nicely. But when the Revolution comes, and the Anarchists win, there are going to be a lot of innocent people with their backs against the wall, tortured. Because that is the reality of taking our ideas to be reality, our politics to be reality, our tendency to be what we are? Chimpanzees with complicated social politics to beat eachother with our words, to win elections, to turn everybody against the other guy with our better oratory, our haranguing from public platforms, our Nostalgia Society For Creative Anachronistic Wobbly Uniforms.
I’m fed up with my own Self-Image, my own pretense, my own ego, but the more fed up with the lies I tell myself about who I am, and about what the world is, the more clearly I see that that is what everybody is doing. I am trying to drop my own Self-Image, these words I said, are not going to change anything, but they are more deeply inspired then most of what I might write.
What is true, inside. When I go deep inside, and drop everything I know, everything I’ve learned, I see that everything I think or see about other people and myself is not true. I’m only writing this, so I don’t get completely forgotten in this effort. There is a point where everything can be dropped to the point that There is No World, And There is No Me, from that place immense Power is unleashed, but without wanting to impose anything on anybody else. And that’s the place I want to be in, the place where my Self-Image what I’ve learned throughout all my traumas, all the abuse and rejection is dropped, and as I said the Mass Murderer goes crying with remorse, the Mass Murderer that is in me, that is in all of us, so clearly visible with it’s Self-Congratulatory Rage, Megalomania, Violence, Prison Violence. Shades of Prison Violence in the Vast Prison of the Collective Super-Ego oppressing everybody, strait jacketing all the millions of Schizophrenics who call themselves Sane! Who think they are Normal, who think they are righteous with their different shades of opinions, anarchist, republican, that allow them to define themselves in relation to others, and create the exact problems they want to stop, with their words, with the books they’ve read, their warped, intellectual minds. Yes, Foucault can be either liberating, or Nazi Propaganda depending on how one uses it. Same with Kate Bornstein, Leslie Feinberg, and Bell Hooks.
Ethical Slut, used by both the Unethical, the Sexually Violating, and those who are finding out how to let themselves be naturally affectionate. For my naturally affectionate Autistic nature may never be what people call “romantic”, I’ve never had a girlfriend, or boyfriend, sex, or very, very, rarely making out. But for most people that means I’ve never loved or lost, with their limited definitions of love.
A friend sent me this beautiful writing of his/hers/hirs “As love is far more fulfilling then any amount of approval, and as true knowledge is infinitely deeper then any amount of thinking, so your true self is far more substantial and expansive then the ego notion and it’s attendant tendencies that make up the illusory personality”
Contained in this phrase was everything I needed to know, and it was both Atheist, and Christian, and New Age at the same time. How can that be? What would Richard Dawkins think? Or for that matter, the Late Jerry Falwell, who have such clear, definable opinions that seem in stark contrast, because they’ve defined this stark contrast. And when we look at wars, isn’t that what they are based on. When we look at Sexual Abuse isn’t that what it is based on, my superiority my entitlement to take what I want from this person, who is my inferior, who has no right to stand up for themselves.
SCott Fraundorf:
For me, human relationships I've been very unsuccessful, and it's enormous stress trying to figure others out. Lately, when there seems any possibility of friendship, or romantic interest with people, or just I'm getting noticed. I treat it as a matter that is none of my business. The five elements can take care of themselves. If this set of atoms wants to associate with that set of atoms that is fine with me. But anytime I've tried to take responsibility for these worldly matters, instead of giving them up to providence, I haven't succeeded much. I still am very much effected when a girl I'm interested in, attracted to, gives me the eye and blushes. But it's on the universe if anything happens, so far in my life, no such luck, so I'm done being involved mentally in the process, developing crushes, caring about this stuff. I trust, the five elements, Iswara, the cosmos can take care of itself. In one of the books, Maharshi told that story about the Saint, jnani who had all those things to say about lust for a woman being a sure way to perish, and other great advise. On a metaphorical sense, I can see that as true. I've never bought into traditional religious notions about sexuality, but anytime mentally I want something, someone will get hurt, even if I wasn't autistic, it would be some conflictual relationships when I want things to stay the same. I still enjoy when I assume I'm being desired by someone I desire. It's a pleasent movie. But you give me "sweets", they give me "blows' so better to just stay abiding in the inward place of bliss of peace, where I'm untouched. Surly though, if I stop pretending duality is true, as is the life-long Heroin addiction, these apparitions will be drawn in, surly.
Scott Fraundorf:
Following Broken Yogi's advise, without any guarantee that I'm always going to follow it. Here is a strictly personal anecdote. I already mentioned somewhere else that I left my Escrima (filipino martial arts sticks) in the auditorium with Molecular Biology Class, and that sitting in a totally different part of the auditorium they rolled to my feet. I've also been noticing alot of other strange auspicious events that are not comprehensible in my opinion in a rational, logical way. And it happens, the more blissful, at peace, and sunk in I become regardless of what happens. The more I surrender my problems to Bhagavan. Even my dispute with Broken Yogi, I surrendered, and forgot about, it appears to have largely cleared up.
But also there were a couple people I was really interested in, that in various ways I alienated, and no, contrary to what B.Y. may think, I'm very nice and good about not alienating many people, but sometimes because of my mind and ego, I have alienated people based on my delusions, like I'm sure most of us have. Those people have been out of the blue, getting in contact with me, as if nothing happened. It's as if they can sense my energy over in some cases thousands of miles. This spurns me on, because I realize all achievement, connection likes(I meant lies) in turning inward. That is also why I disagree with the assertion that Advaita Vedanta can't heal relationships, or help one connect with others. If anything Maharshi, and Co. were paragons of connection, and that is why I'm so deeply inspired by them, the mind invents non-connection, they called attention to all love, all pleasure, all good luck lie not in reaching outward but completely surrendering all effort. Counter-intuitive to what I learned in school. Even if I don't Realize (although I suspect I will at some point), or not everyone who practices does. Advaita Vedanta is not for an elite, it is for everyone, in whatever form it may appeal to different folks.
Scott Fraundorf:
Since this is personal, and obnoxious. I don't want to become a jnani, or even Realize the Self, necessarily. The idea of duality being banished to be quite honest, doesn't appeal to me all that much. But that's because I'm ignorant and in the "I am the body" notion.
However, I also want to be in Truth, and be in tune, not deluding myself, and having a mind interfering with the smooth flow of the script. That is why I practice Inquiry. To get me out of the way, so auspiciousness can flow without me, constantly breaking it into discrete events, and drama.
Maharshi, Papaji, any of these people, who are not people, were not happy because they had attained a great state, but because they were in their innate happiness. That does appeal to me, to always be in bliss, because that is my natural state.
To end this, I think I should add a passage from the Ribhu Gita,
"That in which there is nothing bad or good, in which there is neither sorrow nor pleasure, in which there is neither silence nor speech, in which there are no pair of opposites, in which there is no distinction of "I or body", in which there is no notion the body is myslef, and in which there is not the least thing to perceive. Ever abide in bliss, without a trace of a concept, in that itself as that itself"
Scott Fraundorf:
I was reading Broken Yogi's descriptions of his Inquiry, and I thought it was cool, because it really made sense, what with the intense argumetns that were occuring. B.Y. likes to attack. And it sounds like his inner workings are also attack, defend, attack defend, and so on.....
There are alot of similarities between me and his practice. I thought it was interesting that he shared 20 e-mails with David Godman, and sounded like he argued with him. So I guess shouldn't take it too personally. B.Y. likes to get down and dirty, and argue and hash things out.
I really hope Broken Yogi continues attempting Inquiry (attempting, because unless we're fully realized, only the pure I, how could we be practicing Inquiry)
One thing it seemed to me, is taht conspicuously Broken Yogi was really dueling with himself and paying attention to the mind. I can't remember now if that's how it started out for me. More and more, it's calling attention to that the mind isn't me. Before I think it was an intense effort to stop thinking, at first it was just asking Who am I? over and over again. Now I realize it's just being quiet, and doing nothing, and being the Pure I with nothing attached, constantly reminding myself, that that is all there is. There are no others, there are no situations, it's all in my mind, and what do you know, reality as I formerly considered it acts very strange indeed.
It is also noteable that the huge discussions, and debates started around the Open Threads on Vichara. Before that I seldom commented. And then, couldn't be shut up. Broken yogi also started around that time. Evidently Ravi, and Arvind though are old school, tehy've been commenting volumonously since the very beginning.
It seems to me that Broken Yogi needs validation, in a way that I don't, or is more averse to criticism, in a way that I'm not. I'm so used to rejection that it hardly matters to me, I quickly forget about it, oh another person to let go of. For instance, I could care less if I'm missed, yet B.Y was leaving it appears precisely because no one would miss him. He wanted his comments to be meaningful to others. I could really care less if people can make beans of my comments, to B.Y's obvious chagrin.
My prediction though, is that why woudl B.Y. leave, he enjoys this too much, commenting reacting. I think deep down he even enjoyed the exchange between me and him (should I assume gender, is taht presumptuous), but was worried taht it looked bad to be in such a personal dispute, was embarressed. Throughout his comments, it kept coming up, look at what everybody else is doing, you are not behaving like them. Of course not. I'm not them.
An observation, people seem not to be drawn to those who play the game well, it's interesting how people are drawn to those who don't need them. The more I don't need friends, the mroe friends I have. The less I need romance, the more women show interest. I know that's obscenely personal. But oh well.
Atleast it's safely tucked away in OTOV
Scott
The below is only my personal opinion of course:
Robert Adams and His words and Teaching are most truly expresed at this website: http://www.itisnotreal.com/subpage38.html
The only G)Nome that I like is the one with a fishng rod beside a pond
in a neighbours garden.
Scott Fraundorf:
Bookworm, I'm more of an ork person myself.
Nonetheless, the Ribhu Gita is pretty cool, and Gnome's translation flows pretty well. But hey maybe n.Krishnamurti Ayer's appeals more.
Nonetheless, it seems like the ribhu Gita is like a Prayer that is very similar to Maharshi's teachings. And Maharshi, supposedly said it accorded with his Realization. But I would also like to get my hands on more of Maharshi's own poetic writing.
Scott Fraundorf:
That is beautiful, and wholly relevent to recent events on this blog. hmm! I should mind my own business.
Scott Fraundorf:
Bookworm, thank you for the reminder. It's amazing how refreshing it is to be reminded that everything is predetermined, and my only purpose in life is to turn inward, toward Consciousness.I can get caught up in so many disputes, drama, stress, fear, desires, and forget that purpose. How refreshing it must be to have no mind?
Clemens
You say:
'The realization of That is a never ending journey. It is Gods own joy to explore Himself'
'That' is just and only a word... used to represent the Spiritual Heart located on the right...or of the Self or Truth which is All and of which there is no 'place' 'It' is not located.
It is the ego/mind which goes on journeys.
Scott Fraundorf:
So this is partly in response to the person who asked about Self-Inquiry. It seems important, lately to ask Who am I? deeply, not just at the surface level as in a verbal question, but literally inquiring, who is this looking out at the world? Who is this awareness? When I start wrestling with thoughts too much, and end up in a fight with my own mind which is probably better in some ways then going out to "external" attachments, I ask whose effort is this, so that I drop that effort, and the one making that effort. Forbearance seems key, Maharshi mentioned it in his translation of Sankara. When I'm worried abotu something, what is the worsed that can happen, don't fight it, be at peace with the worsed thing that could happen as much as possible. All of this to drop the resistance. As far as functioning externally. Maharshi made it clear that someone could Inquire or Realize while engaged in "worldly" activities. I do find this difficult having Asperger's, and being engaged in heavy, difficult science classes. I think the key is to continue doing the hard school work, and attempting to be at peace while doing it, while at the same time, not worrying insofar as possible about teh result, i.e. grades, again forbearance, being at peace with the worsed possible outcomes such as failure despite my efforts. All of these help with the Surrender aspect, which is falling into a subjectless/objectless/timeless awareness.
Scott Fraundorf:
Overtime, I find myself less attached to thinking that happeinss is to be found outside, and so my surrender becomes deeper, and I become more peaceful. So even if progress is not apparent it is assuredly happening.
Scott Fraundorf:
It also seems important to believe you can succeed, not at a given time, because there is no time, but that the efforts will pay off with egolessness. Any constant effort attention put to that will eventually pay off, because the tendencies will atrophy.
Sometimes the inner guru rewards such efforts with profound grace, and peace, and I've sometimes felt the current blasting through me, it's important as much as possible in those times to surrender as completely as possible. When I've reacted with fear, the unwillingness of my mind to surrender, that has seemed out of my control. I just put attention on breaking the old habits, the outward going mind, and making attention to see that the Self is happiness and I don't need to attain something to become happy. Which is hard because for so long I've been practicing precisely the opposite.
And I should add, taht it also becomes clear taht everything good in life, comes from an egoless state, and there is nothing good from an ego/dualistic standpoint, this conviction continues to grow, and while intellectually I may believe in advaita, the nondualistic standdpoint, it takes time for that conviction to take root. All of these practices catalyze this.
Scott Fraundorf:
In my case but I reckon it applies more generally, I've watched hopes, and aspects of life fall apart, I think whatever happens externally, it is important not to lose sight of the goal, and that is Realization of the Self, extinction of the ego. And where I (see there you go), or anyone else is not convinced, putting effort into convincing myself. I've found that slowly and meditatively reading the English translation of the Tamil song of Ribhu which Maharshi felt accorded with his realization is helpful for the convincing myself of the glory of egolessness.
Scott Fraundorf:
I was reading Four Requisites of REalization and Inquiry by Nome. The thing it clarified for me about Inquiry that wasn't clear before was that it can seem like an endless struggle with the mind, which doesn't seem to be utterly futile, because you are turning it away from attachments and being in the present moment much much more. So far what I got from Four Requisites which has some of Sankara, and some of Maharshi and maybe some of Nome's own insights in it. Is that discrimination is the process of discerning the real from the unreal, the permanent from the impermanent, and seeing that the Source of Happiness is inward. When I have worries or desires, rather then my previous take on Inquiry where I struggle, or wrench the mind back (to quote David Godman), asking is this real? Is this eternal? The answer would be an obvious no, because nothing phenomenal is. Not even the Cosmos for all I know. Big Bang Big Crunch, etc. This process of discrimination, Where is the source of happiness? Is this real? What is Eternal? And instead of just turning back from the senses, seeing the senses and what they yield as impermanent, and therefor unimportant, can make Inquiry much smoother. The actions go on, because why shouldn't they? I've disassociated from the senses, from my attachments, from my worries, from all the distractions, it's no problem taking care of the body, or the others, which are not me, or mine. I guess the difference is before, I still took myself as a body in the world, and so even though I may ask Who am I? I'm still taking those things, even if subconsciously as real, and worthy of attention, and attachment. Who is this I, doing all this, making all these decisions, etc? Seems to work alot better if you start with the presumption that everything experienced through the senses, everything experienced through the mind, everything thought, everything "external" none of that is me, and none of that is real. What is real, is that indescribable awareness when I'm not identified with those things.
Scott Fraundorf:
I haven't explored Adi Da, but one of the immediate problems I see is that he dives into dualistic thinking, and is then proclaiming himself this Great Teacher, stoic expression and all. It is noteable to take Maharshi as an example, that Maharshi never claimed to be a great teacher, because he didn't need to, he was that blissful awareness when not identified with the senses, other people said he a a great teacher, he was like "Who says that? Look within" His greatness wasn't a title, it was simply that he was the Self (i'm not speaking as an expert, but these are just my current understandings). That's also my understanding of the guru-devotee relationship, is that it isn't like going to high school, "Mr. so and so", but a natural association with the SElf embodied. It just seems like you can't go wrong with that, or end up in cul de sacs.
Scott Fraundorf:
But I've ended up in many metaphorical cul de sacs when I've put people above me, on a pedestal. None of these real gurus, real sages, real jnanis ever asked that of people. Maharshi didn't, Papaji didn't, and I think in some ways that is what is so alluring about them. I may respect a statesman because he is scarey, and charismatic. But what I respect about the Sage, the Jnani, is that they never treat me as anything but an equal, which I can't say about anyone else. There are power dynamics in most relationships between people, but the Sage-Devotee relationship does not strike me as a power dynamic, like boss, employee. Certainly many, many people tried to do that with Maharhsi, and they expected it of others, "you had better stand" when maharshi enters a room. And if someone like me had a problem with that, and brought it to Maharshi, which I might have, he wouldn't have sided with me, because I should have been completely oblivious and orthogonal to such goings on, where did I receive that information, through the senses, is that real, is that eternal, who is it who is seeing that?
Hello SCott...me agan.
You say:
'Certainly many, many people tried to do that with Maharhsi, and they expected it of others, "you had better stand" when maharshi enters a room. And if someone like me had a problem with that, and brought it to Maharshi, which I might have, he wouldn't have sided with me, because I should have been completely oblivious and orthogonal to such goings on..etc
Ramana would, I feel, only have sided with Truth. If your problem was eanest, true and genuine he would hve sided with you no matter what protest, babble and noise others might have made.
If your problem was born out of 'you just being an egostical pain in the arse'..well of course He would have sided with the protesters.
Scott
This whole comment is only my opinion.
I am only tellng you my opinion
on Nome because I wouldn't like to see you get entangled any further
than you are now...with the odd email and reading some book he has published.
To me he is not Truth, He is not Guru.
He is a buisness man and probably has a good standard of living..what with his retreats at 300 dollars a pop and his online store and his temple...whatever.
No doubt he has 'talked the talk' to you and many others in his emails. This is how some of his trade comes.. for his store and retreats etc.
He cannot 'talk the talk' and 'walk the walk'
and is no good for someone who is only interested in Truth.
If you are looking to buy gold from somebody..do not buy it from him as he only sells fools gold..
In my opinion of course.
I
Scott Fraundorf:
There is an external component it seems to Inquiry and that is realizing that nothing in the phenomenal experiences is anything but transient. And then turning within and asking what is real? where is the source of happiness? Who am I? Then turning within, cleared of associations, and attachments to the external world. A few times, I don't know what this would be called, and why does it need a name, I've felt like I've been falling, free of any attachment.
Bookworm:
Those are very good points you raise, and well considered. I can understand with what you went through and all, and I'm honored that you are looking out for me. Thank you for that. Realize though, taht I'm someone who went to Lyndon Larouche meetings (a political cult leader) with friends, to pretended to join as a joke and had to try to stop laughing. I'm not a total dupe. And also I don't think there is any worry of me getting used and abused by someone regardless. You are right, he talks the talk, and he talks it well (I'm unqualified to say whether he walks the walk). So far I think he talks the talk a little too well to be a fraud, unless he's plagiarizing ancient texts I've hitherto been unexposed. (There's too much of a modern adaptation for that)
There's also some stories that are potentially iffy out there about him. And most of those things, the $300 retreats, to be quite honest, I don't know what to make of it. My normal response would be, all of that is bullshit, maybe it is. Honestly, I think the wise thing to do is not make a hasty decision, and continue with what i'm doing since I derive great benefit from teh correspondence and books. There's no boogy man in them that will make me go on teh retreats, listen to creepy flirtatious crap. So far none of that has been directed toward me. (female e-mail name). Reading, and re-reading (guru ratings) the iffy stuff that was said, I couldn't make out if any of it was serious let alone if it was true. One cool thing about the correspondence, he's written scores of them, they are free, he's getting no money out of them, I'm showing no plans of moving to Santa Cruz, if he thinks I'm a women, and is hoping to get laid, or has a crush on the thoughtful woman. Regardless, all of this is speculation, or on the other hand perhaps as I've suspected at times, he's a realized Jivan Mukta, a rare one in the West that I'm lucky to have found, and have a relationship with, I think there is no need for a hasty decision. But I want to add, that I haven't seen even a smudge, of something oppressive or unwholesome in his responses to me.
I'm a punk rocker, I like to do things on the cheap, I don't go on expensive retreats, I've usually have found the best stuff is free or cheap. The best beaches in Hawaii for instance. Ramana Maharshi, is free for all. Inquiry is free for all. So far my correspondences with Nome have been free, his books are books, and I've bought two.
It has occured to me as an alternative interpretation (equally valid or invalid, I have no idea what's true in this case). If he is Realized, if he is a Jnani, in that he's always Selfward and no mind, which would account for my blissful no mind experiences in his presence, and correspondence. An alterny explanation could be that these were wealthy patrons who are extremely spoiled, and the fact that he wasn't at the beck and call, this is the U.S. after all, they exaggerated every way in which they were slighted, or he was trying to coax them toward egolessness, and they were reacting with extreme defensiveness to it.
Or he's a slimy money making cult leader, it seemed there were two sides, the other group said he lived modestly. None of this is really any business, or true either way because it's just concepts, and it's best off if I turn inward and ignore it unless I see something really horrible that in blissful, Self-directed actions I can do something about. Truth is, I can't know others, and anything I think about anybody is just gossip I've made up in my head. Even if he is a slimy cult leader, in that case maybe he coudl derive a little benefit from my sincerity and earnestness, maybe I'm his guru.
Scott Fraundorf:
The creepy swamis Papaji talked about put him off to discuss pushing a poor man off his land. If in the U.S. maybe a Jnani would charge $300 for those who could afford it, who knows? (this is an extremely spoiled, arrogant country) You'd think they would turn around and give it to those who truly need it. One of the people in the group, his devotee said that he was the one who organized it sounded like the donations, because he wanted to preserve nondual teachings, and give people access to Nome. And rich patrons built the Society of Abidance in Truth temple (something like that, this is filtered through 3 people, far removed from Truth). One of my friends said when I told her about Maharshi and Inquiry, and mentioned the correspondence with Nome, she joked wryly that if someone like Maharshi realized in the U.S. they'd have different things to contend with, like women wanting to suck him off. Maharshi lived in a context where that would never happen. But even when i'm happier, and more thoughtless, and formless, I have women flirting with me all over the place. Even Maharshi, was sheltered by his devotees from alot of the corrupt realities of a Western Country. He had no ideas for or against sexuality really. He was always fhte formless present. woudl he have always put off advances, in a country with lots of unserious devotees with no religious morals? All this to say i really have no idea.
Scott Fraundorf:
the person who brought me to SAT, was my filipino martial arts teacher. Eskabo Daan is the most real art I have ever seen. Rob Castro who founded it, could very well also be a jnani, he's brilliant, equaniminous. He's getting famous in the martiala arts world, but when I went to a seminar, deep in Inquiry, I guess eh could tell because he ran at me and yelled "Scooooooot!" and gave me a big hug. Micheal my teacher in this art, and best friends with Rob took me first to hang out with Rob in San Fransisco, and then to Society of Abidance in Truth. I hated the atmosphere, but Micheal laughed at everything Nome said. I hated it violently. And then about half way through my mind just vanished, and I was left in a no mind state that left me looking for solid ground, and when I looked at Nome, completely, utterly still, there was a blur around him, smiling. Afterwards, thinking it was a cult, but feeling so extremely at peace, a peace I had never, ever felt before, I knew "there is Truth here!" Then micheal told me about Maharshi, and we argued about nonduality, I was still liking that names and forms existed, women I could fall in love with unrequited. I should add when I was leaving, ahead of Micheal, me and Nome shared another look, and giggled at each other. I have to say those eyes when he looked at me, remind very much of the same eyes Muruganar described, "Be still! Stay as you are!" So I don't know....Bookworm, there could be more then meets the eye, read those quotes.
Scott:
You can only go your own way Scott.
I stand on everything I have said.
As far as Ravi goes..I think his advice is bad advice.
But we all must walk our on path.
The end of all paths is Ramana Scott.
Scott
P.S.
I hope you are nt giving the geezer money Scott.
Scott Fraundorf:
I love your sarcasm. I don't take any of this seriously. It doesn't matter. The moment it starts to seem like it matters, that's when it needs to be Inquired into so that I can return to, 'all this isn't real'. as to did I give the geezer money? Only for the books. And that the Tamil Song of Ribhu is extremely helpful, I stand on that, and highly recommend it, highly, highly, it returns me to Self-ward clarity like no other, and makes Inquiry much more smooth, much less of a fight.
SCott Fraundorf:
Bookworm, you are like the repo man, or Johnny Rotten of Inquiry. Wait, no I'm the Johnny Rotten of Inquiry. Now, Johnny Rotten, was a Jnani, I'm sure you are familiar living in the U.K and all. How else did the Sex pistols wreak such havoc?
Scott Fraundorf:
I definitely may not comment as much...I actually in hindsight think Ravi's advise was very good...When you recognize helpful instruction, and see that it's not letting you stay with your same rationalizations, and Self-denials, I think I immediately recognize that. My talking about Nome, was less about Nome the person, and less an advertisement for Nome, as in that the Self (or God or Ramana) takes very strong forms, and will immediately tell you how in danger, how in denial you are of it, which is not the safe-road. In that sense I've been immensely helped by a pretty obviously Self-ward form, and maybe that form isn't so Self-ward to others, but I have obvious denials of the Truth, and deep down I know those denials exist, and are keeping me from teh Truth, that I have alot of denial and bondage, when someone calls you on it, even in the nicest language, you feel that nice language as Tiger's jaws, because it's too on the mark. For instance the debates with several people, deep down I know that the Self (or God or Ramana) is untouched by these discussions, and many of them are so badly irrelevent to Inquiry. I'm speaking of my own discussions, not criticizing others. I think Bookworm, it's less important whose a jnani, and whose a fraud, but what and who are directing you to face the deepest Truths, and ultimately guiding you to abiding only as yourself, and not the self-concept, or the concept of others, or the concept of world, or any of the pointless intellectualization. This life is too precious and too short, to waste any moment not facing the Absolute Truth.
Scott Fraundorf:
I'm very happy that the end of all paths is Ramana Bookworm. Maybe it will make the journey a little less arduous
Scott Fraundorf:
One last thing, I know it's obnoxious, oh well, sorry, about Nome. I was reading Nome's Timeless Presence, which is where people were supposed to talk about their stories in relation to Ramana and Inquiry for some kind of work that the president of Ramana Ashram asked him (and others) to compose. That's all I know about it. Again, I'm not advertising a spiritual teacher, but although he never explicitly in this work said that he was realized, evidently it was severe lifethreatening asthma in his early adulthood that spurned him on in Inquiry, and he describes the process so well in a devotional work to Maharshi. It reminded me of some of the other stories. That life threatening experiences drove many people on to Realization. Lakshmana Swami with Malaria, Maharshi with his death experience, and some others.I know in my own hypochondriacal worried madness when I imagine "life threatening situations", I'm spurned on incredibly to Realize the Self, because I see it as my only refuge. Of course Realization of course is not an event, it's giving up the notion that the individual ever existed, that I ever existed, and merging. That's the tuff part, is that the mind feels safe. I think it takes some kind of urgency, need for refuge in a way to put the attention on egoless consciousness where you no longer have the burdens, intense fears, and desires of samsara. That seems to be people's main lifeline to samsara is that there is no urgency in matters of the death of the body. Who, if you had 3 weeks to live, would not put heroic effort into realizing the Self, if exposed to this way out? Nome does describe it well, and again, it talked about things like temporary samadhi is not related to realization, and when "he" experienced this, he noticed what it was that happened when he left that "state". One of the reasons I explore all the teachers, Western and Eastern, in addition to Ramana Maharshi, is only to enhance, approach from different angles, although it is kind of like when I was learning Eskabo Daan, and I told Micheal I was learning another art on the side, he glibly remarked, "really you don't need anything else". Same with Ramana! Nonetheless, that's always been my style, not limited to one approach. Really it all comes down to though that the body dies. Do you want to be the body? I personally don't want to go down with the sinking ship, or be identified with it.
Scott Fraundorf:
I was watching Twin Peaks, I had never actually watched the series through. There is a beautiful depth that runs through all of David Lynch's film and TV productions. A large part of the story involved an evil spirit named Bob that invaded this man and made him kill women including his daughter and her cousin. When he is caught, and the spirit leaves him, and he realizes what he has done, asking for god to have mercy on him, the protagonist FBI agent Cooper tells him in a long speech and in almost exactly Maharshi's words, "Leland, first know yourself, and abide as that itself" Lynch's productions for me very artistically portray the darkness of Samsara. This is an exacmple that goes along with the quotes David Godman picked out that I found very helpful, about how the Truth can be found in a lot of different places because it's the same Truth, there's only one Sage.
Hello.
i have just read some of your fascinating posts about vichara, 'Self-enquiry' having watched a video on youtube of Ramana Maharshi's life.
His life is such an inpiration and yet, having read several books on Him and His teachings I have to admit I was a bit put off, since this 'self enquiry' seemed elusive. Every definition seemed to be denied as not being correct.
Watching the video had again reminded me what a Great Saint He was, and so I looked for blogs that might help.
The best bit of the video was where He was quoted as saying "Happiness is your real nature. You identify with your body and mind, feel its limitations and suffer" That is so true, that really sums up the problem.
I then think another sentence of his is key, "The obstacle is the mind."
i felt so inspired I did post a bit about this on my blog this morning. i hope to learn more here, thank you.
If you are interested in my thoughts on vichara I have put more here:
http://eternalyoga.blogspot.com
i posted my thoughts on my own blog this morning
Scott Fraundorf:
A review of a book by David Lynch about his creative methods. Notice that "diving within" is mentioned several times. I have to say Lynch is the most creative famous person in modern times that I'm aware of.
"In this rare work of public disclosure, filmmaker David Lynch describes his personal methods of capturing and working with ideas, and the immense creative benefits he has experienced from the practice of meditation
Over the last four decades, David Lynch has created some of the best-known and widely discussed screen works of our time. This distinctive writer-director's art bears not only the mark of box-office success but also criticalacclaim and cultural posterity.
Yet Lynch generally reveals little of himself, or the ideas behind his work. Now he provides a rare window into his methods as an artist and his personal working style. In Catching the Big Fish, Lynch writes candidly about the tremendous creative benefits he has gained from his thirty-two-year commitment to practicing Transcendental Meditation.
In brief chapters, Lynch describes the experience of "diving within" and "catching" ideas like fish-and then preparing them for television or movie screens, and other mediums in which Lynch works, such as photography and painting.
In the book's first section, Lynch discusses the development of his ideas-where they come from, how he grasps them, and which ones appeal to him the most. He then shares his passion for "the doing"-whether moviemaking, painting, or other creative expressions. Lynch talks specifically about how he puts his thoughts into action and how he engages with others around him. Finally, he discusses the self and the surrounding world -and how the process of "diving within" that has so deeply affected his own work can directly benefit others.
Catching the Big Fish provides unprecedented insight into Lynch's methods, as it also offers a set of practical ideas that speak to matters of personal fulfillment, increased creativity, and greater harmony with one's surroundings.
The book comes as a revelation to the legion of fans who have longed to better understand Lynch's deeply personal vision. And it is equally intriguing to anyone who grapples with questions such as: "Where do ideas come from?" and "How can I nurture creativity?"""
Scott Fraundorf:
There are moments of deep meditative almost falling in, then suddenly, things can become so extremely tamasic, paranoia, insanity, or rabid desire. But the feelings of peacefulness are deeper, more extensive. I've been really obsessed lately with David Lynch, and the connections of creativity and meditation. I have noticed that it seems the deeper people are in their inquiry or meditation, the more asthetically pleasing everything they do becomes. I don't know if there is a hard fast rule about that. But for instance, the pictures of Lakshmana Swami and Saradamma on the website, are beautiful. This website is beautiful. David Lynch's films deal with twisted material, some of the hardest to watch, but people are so deeply effected by his movies and television. His willingness to go into the darkest aspects of people's psychic illnesses, to convey it through film in a way that is tangible and horrifying, as if you are seeing through the eyes of dark madness, is purifying. And if you watch interviews with him, he is clearly the sweetest, most innocent seeming soul. Where does that darkness come from? And I think it is because he is so free and uncorrupt, and so the corruption, the delusions, are so clear, and he is unafraid of portraying what he sees in the world. He described Philadelphia as a city that was diseased, and filled with fear.
Scott Fraundorf:
Sorry, I'm obnoxious, question and answer with David Lynch....Point being, people always look and see all these spiritual teachers in the west, who maybe are not qualified, but it occurs to me, that it also depends on where you look, what about film makers? I'll stop now, so I don't hog, the thread of posts too much...
question: First of all, when you were young, did you find that you’d second-guess yourself a lot more? Now that you’re older, do you find that you don’t second-guess yourself as much on artistic ideas? Like I totally understand when you do this, that there’s an idea floating off there.
And I also what to ask: I don’t think that there’s a lot of people in Hollywood who understand what you do. And I think Sam Shepard is the only other person right now who’s able to do what you do in a form that is out in the open for people to discover on that level. Have you ever thought of working with him, and are you a fan of him?
David Lynch: I’ve met Sam Shepard, respect him, but I’ve never worked with him. And there’s a lot of people that I respect and would like to work with, but you’ve got to get the person who’s right for the part. And that’s part of the common sense of making films.
And the other question was: Do we ever second guess ourselves? Sort of all the time. You know, this is one of the reasons that I’m out talking about this is to let you know about this business of consciousness and what it is and how it’s affected my life.
And if I could say just a hair about consciousness: it’s kind of easy to see, if we didn’t have consciousness, we wouldn’t know we existed. We wouldn’t know—even if we existed, we wouldn’t know. It’s the “I am”-ness, the Self of us—Being—and also our ability to understand. It’s our awareness; it’s our wakefulness. And it’s our inner happiness. Consciousness is a beautiful, beautiful thing. And we hardly ever hear about it. We don’t learn about it.
Transcendental Meditation, as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, is a mental technique. And this mental technique is easy to do. It’s effortless. And it’s so beautiful, because it allows any human being to dive within, experience subtler levels of mind and intellect, and to transcend and experience an ocean of pure consciousness within, at the source of thought. Transcendental Meditation is a vehicle that takes you to this pure field of consciousness, bliss, intelligence, creativity, love—the whole enchilada. And it’s the experience of this, the experiencing of it, that does everything. Once you dive in, touch it, get wet with it, experience it, you start to unfold it, and you grow in consciousness. That means you grow in bliss.
So all this business of filmmaking and all the anxieties and fears and pressures and all this stuff: the side effect of expanding consciousness, expanding bliss, expanding intelligence and creativity—the side effect of that—is: negative things begin to recede. And when I first began meditating, I had—among many other negative problems—I had an anger. And it was a real anger—an anger that just sat with me. And I would take this out on my first wife. So two weeks after I started meditating, she comes to me and she says, “What’s going on?” And I was quiet for a moment, because it could have been any number of things she might have been referring to . But I finally said, “What are you talking about?” And she said, “This anger: Where did it go?”
It’s magical. I didn’t even realize it was lifting—so naturally it lifts away. She realized it. Negativity begins to recede as this light of consciousness is ramped up.
So this second guessing: a lot of this comes out of fear. And that kind of, you know, just lets up, lets up, lets up. And I call this negative thing the “suffocating rubber clown suit.” And it starts to dissolve; it starts to dissolve. And it’s so much freedom for the filmmaker, for the human being. It’s so beautiful.
Scott Fraundorf:
I'm realizing taht Inquiry goes continually back to what is most basic and fundamental. My own existence. I was to some degree inquiring before I heard of Maharshi because I couldn't figure out how I came to be. There were countless explanations, religious, scientific, but all of them seemed conceptual. I could remember perceiving when I was 3, and then there were images, and I became more and more entrenched in being a person. Maharshi's prescription involved being more thorough in that Inquiry, and more resolute that nothing conceptual, nothing imagined is real. So Inquire pretty much to me involves the basic questions. Is this world I see around me infact real? Am I real? Who am I? In a sense maybe to remind myself, that I'm taking for granted that I know incorrect answers for these questions. Yes, the world is real, and who I take myself to be is a real person, with a personality, with a life. The reason the question doesn't need a verbal answer, is because it's a reminder, that no intellectual answer, no concept, no imagination can satisfy these questions. Also, I suffer because I take the world to be real, myself to be real, and have imagined problems. So I ask are they real? Is the world real? Am I real? Who am I? Where is happiness? Is it where I've been attributing it, to relationships with others, comfort, good food, lack of pain. Or is it innate, and always there even before and after death, or in deep sleep. It's important for me to also conceptualize in my own way, understand in my own way, rephrase the teachings in my own way to get a deeper understanding.
David,
Man cannot be without desires or aspirations. What is more important is to moralization d desires according to vethathiri Maharishi. Check out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1230309306276923761&ei=wuhmSa_9EIWKwgOB0MDSBg&q=vethathiri+maharishi&hl=en
I do pratcise vichara and run into road blocks created by myself.
Many thanks to your wonderul blog so that beginners like me can benefit ...
Regards
Raghu
Pranam to all Devotees,
Bhagwan teachings always very straight and this being understood by only stilling the mind whenever that was happening automatically in a thoughtless state. That state may be a beginner's vichara or a noble path towards self realization or the ultimate bliss which every body wants to hold always.
When will the mind go blank ?
May be during a happiest occasion in your daily life or worst things occurred in your vicinity .
If you observe why the mind becomes blank you will come to know that it is very natural that any substance dissolved , submerged or vanished because it has find out the SOURCE and merged in that .
So Bhagwan's teachings always insists that one should go to the Source by fixing the mind to the Self or Source .
The method is Be Still and every body knows this method which is happening every moment in our life.
as per their daily happenings.
Observe that and with Bhagwan's Grace everybody can continue to be in that Still state amidst this all chaos and confusions they come across in this world.
Be Still
Be Pure
Be Conscious
Be Aware and finally
Become the awareness
Be the Known ( Self)which is Unknown to so many .
Scott Fraundorf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxEm1wcMKZY&feature=related
This youtube here is of Don Miguel Ruiz. His book the four agreements I think led down the path to being exposed to Maharshi. I've even hypothesized that Don Miguel Ruiz is like the beginner's tool, leading to Inquiry. I was doing physical energy work for my horrible anxieties, and then I would read Four agreements for what then was the Inquiry aspect. Because of this...if there were ajnani's and jnani's, I have very little doubt that D.M.G. has no ego. Reading Maharshi's writings, and Ribhu Gita is meditation in itself, and Four Agreements I read so that I could soak in the wisdom. The presentation of this youtube video is very cheesy and new age, as are alot of hte presentations D.M.G. is involved in, but somehow I don't think he's touched by that, and doesn't judge it, or approve of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzCBWbME29A
Here miguel ruiz so echoes Maharshi and ends with Clemens Vargos Ramos' sentiments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMbvcp480Y4
I really like playing this music with sages (so 2 youtube windows), such as Papaji, and same with Don Miguel Ruiz, there is something so musical with the way they talk.
Scott Fraundorf:
I wonder if Who Am I? inquiry it's purpose is just to grab the attention of us cerebral ones, because ultimately the state of REalization would not admit of our pretense of intellectual knowledge. But us cerebral ones, go that is so brilliant, and immediately start practicing.
Scott Fraundorf:
In states where i'm aware of grace, it becomes clear, that I'm incapable of bringing it on. For instance, when I watch an entire satsang of the spiritual teacher who has been helping me, my mind is very active initially, and I try to practice but it's almost as futile as it is when I'm doing other things and attempting to Inquire. But I find myself in a state where the mind is not very active, where there is a feeling of happiness, and peace, that it doesn't matter what happens, and I want to stay there, because it's so much better. But I'm powerless to stay there, I'm powerless to bring it on. Any effort of the mind is of the mind, so my attempts at Inquiry don't really necessarily get past the mind. However I still think the effort is very, very important and continue to do it.
It's kind of fascinating. Since I experience that grace, that inward pull I continue to watch those satsang videos, knowing that my mind cannot judge a teacher based on what they say, do, look like, move, but I know that when there is that strong inward pull that is individual obliterating, where I get a taste of being free of the bondage that seemed impossible to free myself of, I recognize that, and I associate myself with it, because everything including functioning, happiness is greatly increased in the absence of my ideas.
You kind of realize there is nothing I can do in respect to Realization, and feeling that powerlessness, a reverence grows in the heart, I give up the egoically motivated reason for doing spiritual practice, my own self-aggrandizement, how I imagine it will make me a better person, and I associate with that that causes happiness, devotion, courage, fearlessness to grow, and continue to try on my own futilly to eliminate the self-conjured egoic tendencies.
Scott Fraundorf:
I wrote this other teacher, who presents less traditional, as a counselor of sorts, Burt Harding. Their take on Inquiry, asking Who am I? but not expecting an answer, put me in such a deep state of spaceless, thoughtlessness, and now when I ask Who am I? I return to a thoughtless, blissful, spacious space. So asking Who am I? But not only not looking for an answer, it's a question to undermine even thinking of myself as an individual, as someone I know anything about, to utterly destroy the person I think I am. I maybe can't judge Gnanis, but anyone whose responses do this to me, are more advanced then I. (just kidding)
I was also reading D.G.'s interview about Nisargadatta, and how N.M. said that earnestness was what was important, and it was a strong desire for Self-Realization, and a preoccupation with it at every available opportunity. That seemed like really sound advise. It seems like desire for liberation, wherever it comes from, is the most important pre-req.
Scott Fraundorf:
I'm noticing a deeper level of Inquiry. Before Inquiry was a method, a rote method, that I do for a while, hoping to progress closer to something. Or it was keeping away thought, equating the thoguht with the ego.
I'm noticing, that if I really look into the question Who Am I? not just go "to whom did this thought concern?" "me" "Who am I?" Who am I? maybe as less of a question, but more an investigation. There is this identity, at the core of thought, even at writing this, and it has motives. Who is that? But not the question? It helps I'm noticing to think, is it possible to exist without that identity? Is that identity, that pesonality real, as in indisoluble. So far in practice, the core identity, me has survived my practice, still has motives and experiences, worries, desires, a story, progress. Maybe it even kept away thought with Who am I? to stay more peaceful, because it wanted to peace, and a reduction of suffering.
If Inquiry is true, if what Maharshi was saying was not just cocktail talk, then it is possible to dissolve that identity, and live without that identity, infact perhaps it's preferable. So how to do it? What is the practice? What is Self-Inquiry. I've started really looking into the question. Yes, alot of thoughts have I as their basis, but maybe the I-thought wasn't talking about gross-thought. The I-thought, is the sense of this identity, this personality, this core at the core of all experiences, this tangible, taken for granted entity, me. It keeps re-forming itself, even if it temporarily abates, and beating it into submission does not work, but maybe doing that until realized that it doesnt' work. So I have to go, but I've beeen looking into figuring out, is it real, is it possible to dissolve it, and live without it? More sincere questions then rote method.
Vichara
It us started by the unreal in you asking the question 'Who am I'
Sometime later or maybe some lives
later..the Heart is noticed.
It is obnvous that It is all...the Self, Truth.
The Heart Is ...and is the source of ' I am' ness... or Beingness..the TRUE SELF.
The more times you notice the Heart it is obvious that It is You and All
and is the most beautiful and True part of you and That It is who you really are.
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