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I omitted to mention earlier that a new feature has been added to the 'Recent Comments' box. Near the top there is an icon of two people. If you click on it, you will see a list of the users who have made the last twenty-five comments. If you then tick the white box to the left of the user's name, the recent comments of that particular user will be featured. You can then open them all with the 'expand all' option, or open them one by one by clicking on the plus sign.
If you want to do a search for older comments, click on the 'next' box and comments 26-50 will display. Click again and 51-75 will appear. And so on. The same search facility is available inside each twenty-five comment block.
5,000 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 5000 Newer› Newest»Devi Kalottaram - Jnanachara
Vicharam :
continues...
21. In our natural state, actions, cause and results of such action, and all the various other theories propounded in the scriptures, do not exist. In fact, even the diverse world does not exist. As such even the worldly individual
who is attached to the various attractions of the world is also non existent.
22. The entire universe is nothing but the niralamba [the reality which exists without any support].
Further, it shines being illumined by the niralamba. The yogi [with his mind turned inward] merges with this whole, becoming one with it, by making every object in this world one with it. Know this.
23. If any person does not meditate on this great all-pervading void, which is the space of consciousness [Chidakasa], he will be a samsari forever in bondage to wordly attachments, like the silkworms in itself made cocoon. Understand this.
24. All living beings, of whatever genus, undergo gross misery over and over again. Hear from me. In order to avert all this suffering and sorrow, meditate on the great void, constantly without break.
25. Good actions and good conduct have been prescribed only to guide the seeker towards the path of acquiring knowledge. Therefore, giving up even salamba yoga [salamba means support, that is any spiritual practice in which the mind clings to some object as a support, See also verses 35, 38, 40 and 41.], in which an object such as a mantra or a form of God is meditated upon in the mind, stay steadfast in your real state, [sahaja swarupam], where all the outside world is not perceived.
contd.,
Devi Kalottaram -
Jnanachara Vicharam:
continues....
26. One who can destroy all the tattvas [principles], from patalaloka [the nethermost world]
to Sakti [one of the highest tattvas], which are all inter-
dependent, by the arrow of Sunyabhava is a man of great valour. He has attained supreme wisdom which is beyond matter.
27. The mind, hankering after things of the world, is more restless than a monkey. If a one controls it from wandering after external things and holds it in the Void of non matter one will attain liberation directly.
28. The full Conciousnes {Purna Chit} is no other than the true import of the word 'I' and though being other than the erroneous conviction 'I am the body', it permeates all principles [tattvas]. It is the all-pervading Reality.
29. This complee wholeness pervades inside and outside all creations like ether, merging with them, and is itself formless. Dear, those who are submerged in this supreme bliss become sthat supreme bliss themselves. See, how wonderful!
30. The expanding mind will attain peace, becoming still of its own accord, if it is deprived of something to hold on to, just as fire gets extinguished gradually if it not fed with fuel.
contd.,
R.Subramanian,
I am aware of that statement of Sri Sankara-The point that I have made is 'How we understand words like 'Knowledge' ,Karma ,Liberation.What do we understand by words,especially 'Knowledge'and 'Karma'?
I am always sceptical of Dogmatic statements like 'This and only this would lead to Liberation'.
As for Sri Ramakrishna,he did practise all paths and exemplified the plurality of paths to the Divine,even the extreme ones.This is what Swami Vivekananda had to say on this aspect:
"he lived that great life: and I read the meaning. Never a word of condemnation for any! Once I had been attacking one of our sects of diabolists. I had been raving on for three hours, and he had listened quietly. 'Well, well!' said the old man as I finished, 'perhaps every house may have a backdoor. Who knows?'
Swamiji is referring to the 'VAmAchAra mArga'that he had denounced as a young lad (Naren).
Namaskar.
Hi Ravi, folks,
Thanks for inviting me to add my inputs.
Did Bhagavan want ALL devotees to drop their existing sadhanas and start Atma Vichara? That is a little tricky to answer. In my humble opinion, YES, but only in an ideal situation. Bhagavan was practical enough to understand how difficult Atma Vichara is for the devotee with a different temperament though he may be much advanced otherwise. And so, ONLY if the devotee was doing a sadhana that Bhagavan thought was harmful to him, like one of the Yogic ones, would Bhagavan actually tell him to drop an existing practice totally and immediately. Otherwise Atma Vichara would be built into the existing sadhana of the devotee in a subtle way, or carry on for a while alongside. And as Atma Vichara progressed, the devotee would himself find the other practices dropping away.
What about a complete novice then, one who was not doing any sadhana earlier and who was at the basic level of maturity? Did Bhagavan then recommend that he take up any of the practices as perhaps outlined in the initial verses of Upadesa Undiyar to first ripen him, and thus make him fit for Atma Vichara at a later date? NO. The instruction was unequivocally to straightaway start with, and do Atma Vichara. That was all that was needed. Atma Vichara would by itself add on the required qualities in the novice, then ripen him, and then also liberate him. Only if the novice was completely unable to carry on the practice, would something else be prescribed.
In that sense, Ravi, Bhagavan certainly kept the temperament & fitness & earnestness aspects in mind.
-----------------------------
Also, for your question 3, I agree wholeheartedly with you that Liberation is certainly possible by any of the faiths, religions and approaches that abound in the world. The path of Karma (now, we need to define “Karma” carefully here!) too can, as exemplified by the Kanchi Paramacarya. And other paths have been exemplified by the great Nyanmars and Alwars for instance, Kabirdas and so on, and of course our Sri Ramakrishna Paramhamsa too.
But, I believe, compared to any other approach for the serious seeker of Liberation, Atma Vichara is the direct path, the quickest and the shortest, and it bypasses many of the pitfalls that crop up in other approaches.
[Scripture essentially means this only when it says that “Atma Vichara is the only path for Liberation”; then, Scripture is not dogmatically saying that other paths will not lead there, but saying in Its coded and subtle style that Atma Vichara is the only path that befits the seriously serious seeker, one for whom the world is already as dust].
Also, Bhagavan would say that every other path actually comes down to essentially Atma Vichara at the final stage. So, for me personally, why not start right there, as instructed by the Great Guru, instead of pottering around and losing precious time?
Best wishes
Dear Arvind, Ravi,
Sri Bhagavan as you have correctly said insisted that Atma Vichara is the best for everyone, because firstly it was His experience and secondly all other paths have many pitfalls. Karma for example, however much one can be "nishkamya"
in mind, can bring about "pride"
in him. Like Arjuna wanted to save
9th son of a poor brahmin, through a screen of arrows. The 9th son also died and he was hopelssly ashamed. Regarding yoga, many of us already know its pitfalls. First if it does not succeed, you only ruin your health. If it succeeds, it may confer you some supernatural powers and one should be deceived by them and forget his real goal.
Bhakti, Sri Bhagavan permitted, because though it is also dual, it shall blossom into self surrender and the purpose of Atma Vichara viz., vanquishing the mind, is achieved here too.
Sri Bhagavan would often say:
Nin Ishtam En Ishtam - Your wish is my wish.
Irunthapadi Iru - be as you are are.
IRai aruL cheluthum vazhikke sel -As the god's grace directs your way, you go by that way.
As Ravi said, Vamachara is the most dangerous, because the pitfalls are razor sharp. Next comes Yoga because improper observance of rules would spoil one's health further. Supernatural powers will misdirect your goal. Karma may give you some false pride at times and you will be ensnared by it. Again Arjuna's story. After the war, he wanted to get down from the chariot. He asked Krishna to get down first. Krishna said, No, you please get down first. Reluctantly Arjuna got down first. Then Krishna came down. The chariot burned into ashes in seconds. Arjuna did not know that it was Krishna who got the power of Bhishma's arrows absorbed into the chariot, which otherwise would have killed Arjuna in quick time on the 10th day of the war itself! Who conducted the war? Was it Arjuna or Krishna who never took up arms?
****
Dear arvind,
I was trying to find out what Sri
Sadhu Om has to say about other spiritual practices vis a vis self inquiry. "The power which the MIND DERIVES from other sprititual
practices is not the power that which is required to abide in its
[i.e. mind's] source! Repetition of holy names, meditation, concentration of the six yogic centres in the body, concentration on a divine effulgence [jyoti] or sound [nada] -- in all these practices, the mind is only to attend some alient object. The strength of mind acquired by training it to catch hold of any of the aforesaid alien objects is not the genuine sterngth of mind, which is favourable for Self Knowledge. Being unfavourable, rather than calling it, "strength of mind" it would be more appropriate to call it "lack of strength of mind" - [uran inmai as Sri Bhagavan says in ULLadu Narpadu, Verse 32].
Aspirants who have developed mental strength by concentrating on second or alien ob jects [which are other than the Self] and find it difficult even to understand what Self attention - knowing one's own existence - is, and how to take the feeling of one's own existence as the target! It is often said, "Let me first gain sterngth of mind by training it in other practices, and then let me take to Self Inquiry". But it is the experience of anyone who has trained his mind in other practices over a long period of time, that such a mind is still weaker to turn Self-wards, than even an ordinary mind, untrained in any other pratice.
The example of Sri Ganapati Sastri,
who is renowned for his excellence in mnatras and who had done japa in crores, [he was called Mantreswara by his disciples] is worth considering. He often used to say, "I can even go to Indraloka and say what Indra is doing, but I cannot go within and find the source of "I". Sri Bhagavan has Himself has about this in His conversations, vide Talks. No. 362 and Day by Day entry dated 9th May 1946.
What can we infer from this? The subtle points about the results of japa will be clear only to those who actually take to practicing it with utmost earnestmess amd sincerity, and not teo those who merely say, "Japa will help one to do Self Inquiry."
Sri Bhagavan has also told in Who am I?: " manta japam, moorthi dhayanam, aahaara niyamam, pranayamam" shall help self inquiry as an aid, to deveop ekagratha i.e one pointedness and their role is over with that.
{The Path of Sri Ramana, Part I, 2008 edition, page 88-91}
Dear David,
In an interview found here you mention a book entitled Thank You God.
In regards to it, you say the following
...About twenty years ago I read a Christian book entitled Thank You God. Its basic thesis was that one should continuously thank God for the way things are right now, not petition Him for things to be different. That means thanking Him for all the terrible things that are going on in your life, not just thanking Him for the good stuff that is coming your way. And this should not just be at the verbal level. One needs to keep saying 'Thank you, God,' to oneself until one actually feels a glow of gratitude. When this happens, there are remarkable and unexpected consequences...
I'm curious if you have any more information about this book, e.g., the author's name, publisher, how you came across it, etc. Any information you may be able to provide is greatly appreciated.
Additionally, I'd like to thank you for all of your continuing work here and elsewhere which serves to further illuminate the lives and teachings of great saints.
Arvind/Subramanian/Friends,
Arvind's post is quite comprehensive in explaining the position regarding sri Bhagavan advocating Self Enquiry.Yes,Sri Kanchi Paramacharya is the Greatest exemplar of Karma Yoga in our times.Having said this,there is this passage that I wish to have a hard look-"I believe, compared to any other approach for the serious seeker of Liberation, Atma Vichara is the direct path, the quickest and the shortest".I will return to this later on after We are through with the Main theme-Maturity,Development and Effectiveness in Sadhana .
R.Subramanaian has quoted from Sri Sadhu Om's 'Path of Sri Ramana'.
" What can we infer from this? The subtle points about the results of japa will be clear only to those who actually take to practicing it with utmost earnestmess amd sincerity, and not teo those who merely say, "Japa will help one to do Self Inquiry."
I have to say that this is Wrong inference on two counts:
1.The Result of Japa for the Sadhaka is mind subsidence and not the acquiring of Siddhis(Ambition begets this).
2.Japa will lead one to Self(God) and not (necessarily) to Enquiry.
A Little Earnest Practice of Japa(Gayatri)will convince us regarding the above,beyond a shadow of doubt.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from 'Day by day with Bhagavan':
19-10-45 Morning
A barrister from Bombay asked Bhagavan, “I have read
the works of Bhagavan and others and, though I can understand
them intellectually, I have not been able to realise anything in
experience. I have tried Bhagavan’s method for about six years
and yet I have not made any progress. When I meditate, other
thoughts come. For people like me, living in cities and doing
our work and coming here only occasionally, what sadhana
27
would Bhagavan advise so that we may succeed better than I
have so far been able to do?”
Bhagavan: Your real nature is always there, your
meditation, etc., come only temporarily. Reality being your
Self, there is nothing for you to realise. All that is required
is that you should give up regarding the unreal as real,
which is what all are doing. The object of all meditation,
dhyana or japa is only that, to give up all thoughts regarding
the not-self, to give up many thoughts and to keep to the
one thought.
As for sadhana, there are many methods. You may do
vichara, asking yourself ‘Who am I?’ or, if that does not appeal
to you, you may do dhyana ‘I am Brahman’ or otherwise, or
you may concentrate on a mantra or name in japa. The object is
to make the mind one-pointed, to concentrate it on one thought
and thus exclude our many thoughts, and if we do this, eventually
even the one thought will go and the mind will get extinguished
in its source.
Visitor: In actual practice I find I am not able to succeed
in my efforts. Unless Bhagavan’s grace descends on me I
cannot succeed.
Bhagavan: Guru’s grace is always there. You imagine it
is something, somewhere high up in the sky, far away, and
has to descend. It is really inside you, in your heart, and the
moment (by any of the methods) you effect subsidence or
merger of the mind into its source, the grace rushes forth,
spouting as from a spring, from within you."
Namaskar.
Friends,
Snippet No.7 on Maturity,Development in Sadhana-
An Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Rituals prepare the way for divine love
"Without having realized God one cannot give up rituals altogether. How long should one
practise the sandhya and other forms of ritualistic worship? As long as one does not shed
tears of joy at the name of God and feel a thrill in one's body. You will know that your
ritualistic worship has come to an end when your eyes become filled with tears as you
repeat 'Om Rama'. Then you do not have to continue your sandhya or other rituals.
"When the fruit appears the blossom drops off. Love of God is the fruit, and rituals are the
blossom. When the daughter-in-law of the house becomes pregnant, she cannot do much
work. Her mother-in-law gradually lessens her duties in the house. When her time arrives
she does practically nothing. And after the child is born her only work is to play with it.
She doesn't do any household duties at all. The sandhya merges in the Gayatri, the Gayatri
in Om, and, Om in samadhi. It is like the sound of a bell: t-a-m. The yogi, by following in
the trail of the sound Om, gradually merges himself in the Supreme Brahman. His sandhya
and other ritualistic duties disappear in samadhi. Thus the duties of the jnani come to an
end."
As the Master talked of samadhi, he himself went into that state. His face radiated a
heavenly light. Bereft of outer consciousness, he could not utter another word. His gaze
was indrawn and transfixed in communion with the Self. After a long time the Master
began to recognize the world around him and said, like a child, "I shall have a drink of
water." Whenever after samadhi the Master asked for a drink of water, his devotees knew
that he was gradually becoming conscious of the outer world.
Continued....
Arvind,
You say:
In that sense, Ravi, Bhagavan certainly kept the temperament & fitness & earnestness aspects in mind.
I will remind that Bhagawan himself showed his frustration that no one was following/understanding? Atma Vichara during the incident of teaching Atma Vichara to a monkey in a temple. Even if we take the data of 100 or so regular devotees of Bhagawan on record during his life time how many do you think took up Atma Vichara as their primary sadhana?None of his Jnaani devotees took up Atma Vichara as their main sadhana.Am I right in saying you can hardly count them on two hands i.e less than 10% in that sample of stong devotees during his lifetime.Like I said before 'Effectiveness' is not being the factor in Real Life but Predilection.So I will conclude :'WHAT EVER SUITS YOU IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE ONE' and there is nor ever was really any choice of paths, it is just our ignorance about the mismatch between where you are and what's is it really on the table.
Regards,
-Z
Hello.
The following extracts are from 'Spiritual Instruction'.The method of practice is differ from the method of 'who am I?' that Bhagavan always teached.I feel it is explanation of method of ancient scripture about Advaita rather than his direct teaching.I also feel strange that in 'other methods' jnana is included.
1. What is the method of practice?
As the Self of a person who tries to attain Self-realization is not different from him and as there is
nothing other than or superior to him to be attained by him, Self-realization being only the realization of one’s own nature, the seeker of Liberation realizes, without doubts or misconceptions, his real nature by distinguishing the eternal from the transient, and never swerves from his natural state.This is known as the practice of knowledge. This is the enquiry leading to Self-realization
Shiba,
In essence all approaches have the same ingredients-Calling for Diligence(Karma),Attention(Jnana) and Devotion(Bhakti)-There is always this combination.There is no exclusivity about any approach.
The Basic Definition of Jnana or Knowledge is this simple one that Sri Ramakrishna gives:
"'I' and 'mine'-
that is ignorance. But, 'O God! Thou and Thine'-that is knowledge."
Most people would imagine that calling 'God' as 'god' is Bhakti and calling 'God' as "self' is Jnana!The difference is more a belief than actual!
Namaskar.
Friends,
Here is the concluding Snippet No.8On the Theme of 'Fitness,Development and Effectiveness'-from 'Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi'(17 th November 1938):
D.: Is a Jnani different from a yogi? What is the difference?
M.: Srimad Bhagavad Gita says that a Jnani is the true yogi and also
a true bhakta. Yoga is only a sadhana and jnana is the siddhi.
D.: Is yoga necessary?
M.: It is a sadhana. It will not be necessary after jnana is attained.
All the sadhanas are called yogas, e.g., Karma yoga; Bhakti yoga;
Jnana yoga; Ashtanga yoga. What is yoga? Yoga means ‘union’.
Yoga is possible only when there is ‘viyoga’ (separation). The
person is now under the delusion of viyoga. This delusion must
be removed. The method of removing it is called yoga.
D.: Which method is the best?
M.: It depends upon the temperament of the individual. Every person
is born with the samskaras of past lives. One of the methods will be
found easy for one person and another method for another. There
is no definiteness about it.
D.: How is one to meditate?
M.: What is meditation? It is commonly understood to be concentration
on a single thought. Other thoughts are kept out at that time. The
single thought also must vanish at the right time. Thought-free
consciousness is the goal."
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
The life of Sibelius was an interesting read. Some of these great composers, writers (Thoreau, Emerson) and poets (Ryokan, Basho, Issa) are, it seems, in direct communion with nature, and it reflects in their works.
I enjoyed listening to the performance of his 5th symphony (Karajan was the conductor)in spite of my own ignorance of the nuances in Western classical music. :)
Best,
Dear Hey Jude,
Ryokan's poetry is brilliant-the poem you posted was another example of it. It is not surprising that there is a surge in his popularity. A few more from Ryokan:
I must go there today-
Tomorrow the plum blossoms
will scatter
A nightingale's song
brings me out of a dream:
The morning glows
The plants and the flowers
I raised about my hut
I now surrender
To the will
Of the wind
O lonely pine!
I'd gladly give you
My straw hat and
Thatched coat
TO ward off the rain.
Best wishes,
Devi Kalottaram - Jnanachara vicharam:
[Tr. T. K. Jayaraman]:
31. You must realize the the four states of infatuation, delusion, swoon [due to shock] and dreaming, as also sleeping and waking are all to be dispelled.
32. If one meditates that the One is Consciousness [Chit] is different from the prana [life-force], which has subtly attached itself to the gross body, from the mind, from the intellect, and from the ego, one will become established in that Consciousness.
33. Due to sleep and due to thoughts, the mind always loses its sharpness, its foolishnessincreases, and it goes to ruin. Awakening this mind with effort, and without allowing it to wander, establish it in the state of Self. Persevere in this effort by fixing the mind again and again in its natural state.
34. When once the mind becomes steady, it should not be disturbed in any way. There is no need to think, even in the least, of anything else, entertaining any doubts. Fixing the mind firmly in that state [of Self awareness],keep it still.
35. Make the mind, which always clings to some support [attaching itself to sense objects], devoid of all such support. Making the mind, which is restless in clinging to external supports, motionless,do not disturb that tranqullityeven a little.
contd.,
Devi Kalottaram - Jnanachara vicharam:
[Tr. T. K. Jayaraman]:
31. You must realize the the four states of infatuation, delusion, swoon [due to shock] and dreaming, as also sleeping and waking are all to be dispelled.
32. If one meditates that the One is Consciousness [Chit] is different from the prana [life-force], which has subtly attached itself to the gross body, from the mind, from the intellect, and from the ego, one will become established in that Consciousness.
33. Due to sleep and due to thoughts, the mind always loses its sharpness, its foolishness increases, and it goes to ruin. Awakening this mind with effort, and without allowing it to wander, establish it in the state of Self. Persevere in this effort by fixing the mind again and again in its natural state.
34. When once the mind becomes steady, it should not be disturbed in any way. There is no need to think, even in the least, of anything else, entertaining any doubts. Fixing the mind firmly in that state [of Self awareness],keep it still.
35. Make the mind, which always clings to some support [attaching itself to sense objects], devoid of all such support. Making the mind, which is restless in clinging to external supports, motionless,do not disturb that tranqullity even a little.
contd.,
Dear Ravi, m, arvind, and others,
Just because only a few can practice
self inquiry, and attain non dual
consciousness, it does not mean, that the method is not suitable. Everyone should try. Though only 11 players can represent a national cricket team, it does not mean all young boys [and even girls] should not learn and play cricket. In India, some half a million boys must be practicing
cricket on the road side and town grounds though only 11 are making it to represent the national team. These efforts towards self inquiry, as Sri Bhagavan said, would be carried over even to next birth[s] for continuing the efforts to attain the goal. The other paths would at best take one to Kailasa or Vaikunta and stop at that. No liberation.
****
Devi Kalottaram - Jnanachara Vicharam: [Tr. T.K. Jayaraman]:
continues....
36. Meditate on the peerless Self which pervades all the various forms, yet remains without any blemish [being unaffected by them], just as ether, pervading all the creations made up of five elements, remains unsullied at the time of their dissolution.
37. When one adopts the practice [sadhana] by means of which one's mind, which is restless like the wind, is made still perpetually, then the purpose of taking birth as a human being is fulfilled. This is also the mark of a true scholar.
38. Do not practice meditation by fixing the mind on the six adhara chakras, the ones that are up or down or in the middle or anywhere else. Giving up all such meditations, make the mind always devoid of any support [either inside or outside.
39. If the mind falls asleep, awaken it. Then if it starts wandering, make it quiet. If you reach the state where there is neither sleep nor movement of mind, stay still in that, the natural [real] state.
40. The state in which the mind is bereft of any support to cling to, ever faultless and pure, and devoid of worldly attachments, is the nature of liberation attained through knowledge. Keep this firmly in mind.
contd.,
Dear Ravi, m and others,
Why Only Self Inquiry:
Once a Vaishnavite came to Sri Bhagavan and told Him: "Swami, I have been praying to Narayana and doing pujas for him. What will happen to me?
Sri Bhagavan said: It is all good.
Please pursue them vigorously.
Devotee: Then, what will happen?
Sri Bhagavan: You will go to Vaikunta, with Narayana's Grace.
Devotee: Then, what will happen?
Sri Bhagavan: You will be there in august presence of Lakshmi and Naryana, among various other devotees. You can sing his glories there.
Devotee: Then, what will happen?
Sri Bhagavan: If Narayana is so much pleased with you, one day, he will call you closer to him and whisper in your ears: Please practice Who am I?
Devotee: I can do that, even here. Why go to Vaikunta?
Sri Bhagavan: That is what I am also saying. Please do self inquiry.
The Self Inquiry, upon fruition, with God's grace of course, results in oneness, non dually. Then questions, 'then what will happen?' would not arise at all. There is no questioner, there is no question, there is no person to whom the question is addressed. All is One. Ellam OnRe.
****
R.Subramanaian,
" These efforts towards self inquiry, as Sri Bhagavan said, would be carried over even to next birth[s] for continuing the efforts to attain the goal. The other paths would at best take one to Kailasa or Vaikunta and stop at that. No liberation."
In a lighter vein,Where does one aim to go in between this birth and the next birth.May be Lord Siva or Lord Vishnu will be too happy to accommodate Transit passengers bound for the Beyond!What is the preferred transit destination?
Also wonder if the vast majority stop in Kailasa or Vaikuntawill there be any visa issue for the rest of us waiting to go there?
Jokes apart,What is the problem staying in Kailasa or Vaikunta?Any Data on this?
Namaskar.
Dear Ravi,
1. Kailasa or Vaikunta is still in duality. It does not mean merger with Siva or Narayana.
2. It is a waiting shed. Some scriptures say the inhabitants of such noble places will merge with One at the end of eons. Why all
this waiting business? Self Realization is Here and Now. Is it not?
****
Hi Z, folks,
Well, I wouldn’t say that a divine entity such as Sri Bhagavan can feel “frustrated”. I think the monkey anecdote is merely his wonderful natural sense of humour bubbling out (if true, would give anything to have watched the great Kavyakanta rolling on the ground with laughter!)
Actually, when Bhagavan was in the body, He insisted that ALL who came to Him at least tried to do Atma Vichara. He would exhort them to keep trying even when no sign of any progress was forthcoming. But then you are absolutely right in saying that few could carry on with Atma Vichara as their main sadhana for any length of time.
In my humble opinion it all boils down to FAITH in the Guru, rather than predilection or maturity levels; actually, a real Leap of Faith to follow the Guru’s instructions blindly and to the letter, with all the EARNESTNESS one can muster. And then, just leave it to Grace; it will now be His responsibility to take you across. And so, the starting point is: Do I regard Sri Bhagavan as my Guru? If so, and very genuinely so, we then do Atma Vichara, predilection or no, visible success or no.
Am reminded of the simple story which never fails to inspire me [forget now where it is, Yoga Vasista (?)] of the little Robin bird whose eggs fell into the sea. Without thinking she started picking up a drop of sea water each time, to carry it inland and drop it there, and then come back again to pick up the next drop. Her intention – to dry the vast ocean up so as to reach her treasured eggs! She did this day in and day out for days, weeks and months, without stopping or pausing. She hardly had any predilection or temperament to do this, but she did it anyway. The Great Gods watched with great love and interest from above. And then one day, in an act of Divine Grace, They dried up the vast sea for the little bird, so that she could be united with her cherished ones.
In my humble opinion, we all have to be little Robin birds when taking up Atma Vichara (and indeed, for that matter, any other sadhana as well!)
Best Wishes
PS: Z, Do I understand correctly from your posts that you do a particular sadhana earnestly for a while, and then plunge into “KKK” periodically to sort of ease the pressures of desires? If so, don’t you find coming back & starting sadhana again doubly difficult from before? Thanks in advance.
Devi Kalottaram - Jnanachara Vicharam:
continues....
[Tr. T.K. Jayaraman]
41. Dispelling all attachments completely, and fixing that mind in the Heart firmly, persist in your practice always in order to strengthen the awareness, which then shines forth with great effulgence and clartiy.
42. Know that whoever meditates on that supreme void, and become established in it by virtue of constant practice, will definitely attain the great state which is beyond birth and death.
43. Gods and goddesses, merits demerits, and their fruits which are likewise anya [other than oneself], objects of attachment and the knowledge of those objects -- all these will lead one to bondage in mighty samsara.
44. All objects of attachments are said to be pairs of opposites [happiness and misery, good and bad, profit and loss, victory and defeat, and so on]. When one rises
above those pairs of opposites, one realizes the Supreme. Such a yogi is a Jivanmukta, liberated from bondage. On discarding the body, he becomes a Videhamukta.
45. A wise man should not give up the body out of aversion to it. Know that when once the prarabdha karma [result of accumulated actions] which was responsible for the creation of the body ceases, the bodily burden will automatically fall off.
46. The Consciousness which shines as "I" in the Heart-lotus is pure [flawless] and perfectly steady [without a trace of movement]. By destroying the ego, which rises [from that Consciousness], that Consciousness itself bestows the supreme joy of liberation. Be sure about it.
47. With great devotion meditating constantly that "I am that Siva the form of the One Consciousness that is always unsullied by any adjunct", dispel all your attachments.
48. Giving up all notions about country, caste, blemishless community, asrama, and associated matters, hold on to and practice always meditation upon the Self, your own natural state.
49. I alone am. No one belongs to me; nor do I belong to anyone else. I can see no one who can call me his; neither can I see anyone who is mine. I am all alone.
50. Know that the person who experiences the firm conviction, "I am the Supreme Brahman" I am the Master and Lord of the Universe!" is the real mukta [one who has attained liberation], and that the one following conflicting paths is in bondage.
contd.,
Dear shiba,
Yes. What you say is correct. The Spiritual Instruction or Upadesa Manjari has been told to Sadhu Natananda and there Sri Bhagavan explains various methods. But He clearly says that "all practices are followed only with the object of CONCENTRATING THE MIND. And all the mental activities like remembering, forgetting, desiring, hating, attracting, discarding etc., are modifications of the mind, they cannot be one's true state. Simple changeless being is one's true nature. Therefore to know the truth of one's being and to be it, is known as release from bondage and the destruction of the knot -granthi nasam. Until this state of tranquility of mind is firmly attained, the practice of unswerving abidance in the Self and keeping the mind unsoiled by various thoughts is essential for an aspirant."
In the end Sri Bhagavan gives importance only dhyanam and atma vicharam in Upadesa Manjari - Spiritual Instruction.
Dear shiba,
Similarly, under Vichara Sangraham,
Self Inquiry, Sri Bhagavan describes other methods [like yoga] also. "Why did He include the mention of less direct and more elaborate methods in this first exposition? [spoken to in 1901 around the same time as Who am I? to Pillai]. The obvious contingent reason is that the disciple for whom it was spoken to [and in turn written by Gambhiram Sesha Iyer], has been reading books about these various methods and asked questions about them. Perhaps also, in a wider sense, it is appropriate that there should first be a general exposition of various methods before the lifelong instruction in that which He prescribed. Certainly, the other methods, although described, are scarcely recommended [by Him.]"
Who am I? to M. Sivaprakasam Pillai IS THE METHOD PRESCRIBED BY SRI BHAGAVAN, FOR PRACTICE.
Dear Arvind,
I agree with you totally. Though
Sri Bhagavan knew that SELF INQUIRY was difficult for many many, He still recommended it because it was a sure way of liberation. Some could achieve good progress and some could achieve less progress but it is His Grace which filled up the gap. His special gaze smothered the mind for whom the mind was not to be easily vanquished. Muruganar
can be mentioned as a known case for such special gaze and grace by Sri Bhagavan. There could be many more which are not recorded. He also confirmed attainment of mukti for a few like Mother Azhagamma, Echammal, Mudaliar Patti, Sivaprakasam Pillai, Cow Lakshmi, Girl Indra daughter of GVS, either by a stray statement or through an elaborate conversation.
****
Arvind
I don't know what the locus classicus is of the bird-and-egg story, but it appeared in the Telegu and Tamil versions of 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam'. I added it to a verse from Guru Vachaka Kovai as an appropriate comment:
694 Even in worldly endeavours your efforts will not be crowned with success without intense sraddha [faith and earnestness of purpose]. You should know that sraddha in your spiritual practice should never decline until you merge with the boundless supreme.
Muruganar: In worldly endeavours, whatever they may be, success is not attained without sraddha and tapas. This tapas can be that which has either been performed in the present or past lives. This truth can be seen in every subject and in every field. Similarly, the sadhaka should not allow his sraddha in sadhana to slip away until he merges with the supreme that remains beyond his effort.
[Supplementary quote:] I once sought Bhagavan’s blessings on the ground that all my efforts to abide at the source of the mind had proved futile.
When Bhagavan asked, ‘What is the obstruction?’ I answered, ‘It is my deep-rooted tendencies. I need your grace.’
His reply was, ‘Your repeated effort is bound to erase them. All sadhana is meant for this purpose only.’
He further observed, ‘Keep up your practice. There is no need to remind God about his business which is to keep an eye always on our welfare. The mistake one is prone to make is to abandon effort under the mistaken impression that God’s grace is absent. But one should not slacken, for God’s grace is bound to operate at the ripe time.’(Face to Face with Sri Ramana Maharshi, p. 312)
[Second supplementary quote:]
Bhagavan: When a sparrow was flying, holding its egg in its beak, the egg slipped and fell into the ocean. The sparrow, anxious to retrieve it, repeatedly dipped itself in the ocean, sucked some water through its beak, came to the shore, released the water and fanned its wings [in an attempt to empty the ocean]. The sage Narada who was passing that way saw this action of the sparrow, enquired, and came to know the reason.
‘You stupid sparrow! Is this something you can accomplish?’ said Narada.
The sparrow replied, ‘I don’t care whether it is possible or not. If I persevere tenaciously, beyond that it is in God’s hands.’
Narada, delighted with its faith, went to Garuda and told him everything.
Then he said, ‘A creature belonging to your bird tribe is exerting itself with so much faith. Is it proper for you to keep quiet? Can you not help?’
After hearing this story Garuda flew quickly to the sparrow. As soon as he flapped his wings there, all the waters of the ocean separated into two, leaving the egg of the sparrow visible. The sparrow immediately picked it up in its beak and flew away.
Similarly, those who meditate on the Self and do good deeds, if they labour hard without feeling, ‘This is a mammoth task! There is no one to help! Is this possible for me?’ then the help of God will come automatically. Will the waters of the ocean get diminished by the sparrow sucking water through its beak and by its releasing it on the shore? The sparrow performed its task with faith [sraddha] and perseverance. Similarly, if anyone makes an effort, it will not fail to bear fruit at some time or other. For all things faith alone is important. For those who engage in good deeds, if they work with faith, the help of God will come, just as it did through Garuda. Until it comes one should work on the job without any faltering of faith, and with utmost exertion.
[Letters from Sri Ramanasramam. This story should have appeared at the end of the letter dated 27th July 1948, but it was omitted from the English edition. It appears in both the Tamil and Telugu editions of the book.]
R.Subramanian,
"1. Kailasa or Vaikunta is still in duality. It does not mean merger with Siva or Narayana.
2. It is a waiting shed. Some scriptures say the inhabitants of such noble places will merge with One at the end of eons. Why all
this waiting business? Self Realization is Here and Now. Is it not? "
What is the Problem with Duality?How does it matter to the devotee in Kailasa whether he stays near Lord Siva or Merge with him after Aeons?
Coming back to Ground Level,Do we know what is happening now or going to happen the very next moment?Is that going to change whether we aim for this or that Goal?If that be so,why bother whether we land in Kailasa or Vaikuntam(Most would consider themselves extremely Blessed to have done so!)?
One needs to only recall Appar Swamigal's wonderful Hymn:
kuniththa puruvamum kovvaich chevvAyil kumiN chirippum paniththa chaDaiyum pavaLam pOl mEniyiR pAlveNNIRuminiththamuDaiya eDuththa poRpAdhamum kANappeRRAlmaniththap piRaviyum vENDuvadhE in^dha mAn^ilaththE-
Where he describes the beauty of Siva's form(Lord Nataraja) and categorically states that if one can get to see this,Even Human Birth is desirable"(What to speak of Kailasa!)
1.Self Realization is not a Goal or Destination that has to be secured by a careful choice of Means.
2.If Self Realization is Here and Now,we will be in a position to validate all paths as leading to the same Goal.We will be in a position to fully appreciate the wonderful Hymn of appar.
The 'Nonduality' of our imagination is far removed from the actual.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
very nice to see ravi, arvind, z., shiba etc. in the blog (seems like the good old days!) :-)
subramanian: sir - ever thought of creating your own blog? did you see murali's 'answer' (june 11) to your 'question' on 'suffocating' out the blog? it's not my blog and hence am in no position to prescribe or proscribe; all i would like to say is that your unceasing random diary-like jottings, which tend to change gears too often from one topic to another sort-of smokes out any meaningful discussion happening in the 'open thread'! sorry to be saying but i humbly surmise that a better place for one to give vent to whatever one thinks or wishes to write randomly & continually is perhaps either one's own blog or simply a handwritten/ typed notebook, which if kept only for sAdhanA purposes need not even be published!
sorry sir, never intended to offend you but since you asked a 'question', therefore giving my view...
salutations to all:
ravi/ arvind/ subramanian/ z./ others:
pardon me if my views regarding 'vichAra' sound extreme - there is no "can't" in vichAra :-)
i know nothing about the 'self' to talk anything about it; but my understanding of bhagavAn's advice of vichAra as a means has got little to do with anybody's predilections, dispositions, tendencies, inclinations etc. etc., for if that had been true, bhagavAn would have first of all enquired, in all cases, what one has been doing currently and only then prescribed self-enquiry, if relevant! bhagavAn suggested vichAra to one & all irrespective of their present state of so-called perceived progress or regress :-) it's only if somebody doesn't wish to 'listen' what bhagavAn has to say and hence wants to have their own way, or may have approached bhagavAn just for some kind of an assurance on something they have already made up their mind, bhagavAn would have said 'ok' to it...
may be, in karma or bhakti or yoga, abilities and/or tendencies matter, not so, i would say, for vichAra. if one has a desire to be free or be in the state in which bhagavAn was (for me, 'is'!), and also happens to have a little trust in bhagavAn, one would do vichAra, vichAra, vichAra alone. as much as one can take a horse to water but not make it drink, it's solely one's unwillingness that results in one taking refuge within meaningless shelters of tendencies or inclinations etc. to say it simply, if one has faith in bhagavAn (as most of you claim to possess), then one would take up vichAra as a fish would to water! in my view, both the contrapositive as well as the converse of the above hold in equal measure :-). it's way too easier to try vichAra instead of figuring out one's predisposition from the morass of the chaos inside (a.k.a thoughts) :-). also, what pApAji or lakshmaNa svAmi did or didn't do is quite irrelevant to me; when it comes to bhagavAn's 'teachings' & 'practice', bhagavAn & bhagavAn's writings only matter (for me)
by the way, interesting to know that some of you appear to be quite familiar with the 'kailAsa' & 'vaikunTa' residences along with their alleged owners mr.siva & mr.nArAyaNa!!! at least, the language used in talking about them betrays an intimate aquaintance! the only kailAsa & vaikunTa am aware of are the many apartments bearing some version of these names in the city where i live :-)))
Subramanian,
Over the past months I liked some of your posts and some were average.This is the case with anybody and any book.I dont mind your writings.When they are good I enjoy otherwise I pass it on.I do not think anybody here writes anything always interesting.Many of Mr.David's blogs are very interesting and some are average.Many times I am just emptying out, rarely there is genuine doubt that I like clarified, or what I share will be helpful to others, many times I write to seek attention.When I throw up here it feels so good.I sincerely believe all including Mr.David are writing here only to empty out.Haaaah it feels so good when we throw up.Rarely people happen to benefit when we throw up so that they can throw up more.I see Everyone here without exception emptying out their what we can call 'itch'; just like the lady who wanted to hug swamis, Bhagawan let her continue and the story of an old guy in Chadwick's book who wanted to control and Bhagawan when complained said that that is his nature let him empty out.
So Subramanian I am fine with your writings unless I expect every post to be very interesting.Some are good some are average.That is fine.Generally bland statements are boring like GVK and stories are interesting.Like Bhagawan allowed people to throw up Thanks David for allowing us throw up here and we feel relieved.It is good sadhana to throw up.Guys pls dont think I am talking against u and supporting our Subbu. We are all few here and good friends.When I come to India I want to meet u all personally.I already met David and I gained a lot thru Mr.David's books and this blog and all your contributions here.Thanks.
Regards,
-Z
Dear S.,
On the same evening when arvind
wrote about my plethora of comments,
I have replied that it is Sri Bhagavan's will to reduce them drastically and from 11th June onwards, I am only giving three original comments and the rest are only responses. This you can check by counting my comments/responses from 11th June. I have created enough fresh air for others.
Dear Anon.,
For that matter, all core philosophical writings are bland only. Philosophy is not a purana where Kamsa wants to kill Krishna.
If you start reading Who am I? or ULLadu Narpadu, it will only be boring at the beginning. But if one contemplates deep each line of truth, then it becomes interesting and sustaining. Stories again are not independent; they are the offshoots of basic teaching. The stories about sadhaka, their experiences, etc.,
Take for example the story David posted about a bird losing its egg in the mid ocean. Continuous efforts by the bird, though an impossible task, brought about the grace through a powerful eagle, with large wings and it spread the ocean and found the egg for helping out the bird. No the story conveys: One should have persistent efforts in Sadhana to bring about the grace. If Sahdana is grossly inadequate, then the Grace of Guru or God descends, to make up the deficit. The story is quite interesting. But the mother of the story is GVK Verse 694, if read separately, it may appear boring and you will leave a big yawn.
Bland philosophical writings like Devi Kalottaram verses are bound to boring unless you are interested in looking into the truth in each line. That is why I am giving 5 or 10 verses only per day. I am sure members- most of them at least, are only reading it or skipping it and hardly a few are going to the truth content of it. In fact Devi Kalottaram is the basic text, to highlight our ping-pong comments on Self Inquiry and other paths.
Nan Yar is one such great work. "M. Pillai asked Sri Bhagavan to give the upadesam on Truth as He had experienced." But for a casual reading, it may appear uninteresting. Only daily constant reading, will reveal the facets of truth in all its glory. Because each word is experiential and for a non sadhak or a sadhak not very mature or progressed, it may be boring.
Once I wrote to David, that Who am I? alone is more than adequate for a sincere sadhaka in Atma Vichara. Even UU and UN are only elaborations of that basic theme.
And David agreed to my view.
****
m,
I have not heard Karajan's Sibelius but I hear that he is one of the finest conductors of Sibelus Symphonies(Tchaikovsky as well).I have the set of Sir John Barbirolli and it is quite Good.
I quite agree that some of these poets,artists,Philosophers have this gift of sensitivity-and when they express themselves,it helps us to discover the Beauty they percieve.
Here is an Excerpt from Ralph Waldo Emerson's Self Reliance:
"I suppose no man can violate his nature. All the sallies of his will are rounded in by the law of his being, as the inequalities of Andes and Himmaleh are insignificant in the curve of the sphere. Nor does it matter how you gauge and try him. A character is like an acrostic or Alexandrian stanza; � read it forward, backward, or across, it still spells the same thing. In this pleasing, contrite wood-life which God allows me, let me record day by day my honest thought without prospect or retrospect, and, I cannot doubt, it will be found symmetrical, though I mean it not, and see it not. My book should smell of pines and resound with the hum of insects. The swallow over my window should interweave that thread or straw he carries in his bill into my web also. We pass for what we are. Character teaches above our wills. Men imagine that they communicate their virtue or vice only by overt actions, and do not see that virtue or vice emit a breath every moment. "
Namaskar.
Arvind/s/Subramanian/Friends,
"it's way too easier to try vichAra instead of figuring out one's predisposition from the morass of the chaos inside (a.k.a thoughts) :-). "
Good to see s's post on Vichara-The following question comes to my mind:
Is VichAra as impersonal as s has said?
The Reason that I am asking this question is that when the first open thread on VichAra was thrown open,many were the responses from the Practitioners of Self Enquiry-and all quite different,so much so ,if I remember Right David also observed this and had some comment to this effect.
I think it is almost 3 Years since and I wish to know whether the Practice has undergone any refinement or evolution for those who still figure in this Blog.Just what is this change and if it is as independent of the 'Chaos' as s has said,Why is it not coming to an end?
Namaskar.
z/R.Subramanian/Friends,
z's post was quite amusing and at the same time not without substance-I had a hearty laugh.
R.Subramanian said this:
" The story is quite interesting. But the mother of the story is GVK Verse 694, if read separately, it may appear boring and you will leave a big yawn."
This is an interesting topic-Just what makes the story interesting(for me ,inspiring)is that the story lets us identify with the characters.For that moment,we become the tiny sparrow trying to empty the ocean of karma(See how powerful is the symbolism)-Not just that,the sparrow is trying to retrieve the egg in exactly the same place where it dropped it!Just this earnest effort is noticed by Narada and help comes from unexpectedquarter without the sparrow having to pray for it.
A prosaic statement of the same Truth definitely falls flat.This is the power of tales and parables that the Great ones have used to Great effect-it allows everyone to take home whatever he could assimilate.
The power of the parable lies in its attention catching suggestion.It sows a seed in the mind of the listener and kindles understanding.It engages the listener in a more personal way.
The factual statement of the same Truth lacks this power of Suggestion.It has something of a 'Take it or Leave it' type of an impersonal slant.
In any field ,it is the mark of a Great teacher that he engages the attention of the pupil, expresses in a manner that makes assimilation easy.
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
"I have replied that it is Sri Bhagavan's will to reduce them drastically and from 11th June onwards"
How do you say that it is Bhagavan's will?This is acceptable only when Sri Bhagavan also asks murali or arvind or s or any other to 'read' what you are posting!This reminds me of the following amusing story by TKS in 'At the Feet of Bhagavan'
INITIATION FOR SRI BHAGAVAN
EVEN during the days Bhagavan lived on the Hill,
His fame as a perfect Jnani had spread far and wide,
and people of several religions were visiting him in large
numbers. One of these visitors was a Sri Vaishnava hailing
from either Srirangam or Kanchipuram — I do not
remember which.
Although this man was orthodox, he showed
profound regard and admiration for Bhagavan as one who
had attained the highest stage in Yoga. Much to our
surprise, and contrary to usual Vaishnava custom, he used
to prostrate morning and evening to Bhagavan. He stayed
with Him for three days, during which he spoke about
the state of a Jivanmukta. He was all praise for Bhagavan,
but had the one doubt as to how a Jivanmukta could
attain the Abode of Vishnu without formal initiation; his
own teacher was much troubled also on this point and
had sent him with the offer to come in person to confer
initiation on Bhagavan with mantra and sealing of the
Vaishnavite emblems on His shoulders — if He consented
to receive it at his hands. He added that his teacher was
greatly concerned about the welfare of such a rare soul as
Sri Maharshi, and he had been commissioned by God in
a dream to give Him this initiation.
All there were eager to know how Bhagavan would
react to this extraordinary proposal. But Sri Maharshi kept
22 At the Feet of Bhagavan
his usual silence. Perhaps He hoped the emissary would go
away quietly when found that his mission was a failure; if so,
He was disappointed, for the Vaishnava remained. But when
he spoke to Bhagavan about his teacher’s dream, Bhagavan
had no difficulty in solving the problem and quietly remarked:
“Let the same Lord appear in my dream also and order me to
accept the initiation, and I shall accept it.”
It is perfectly okay with me that you are posting with a great deal of enthusiasm.I do enjoy reading some of the Reminiscences that you have posted.Yet,to claim this as Bhagavan's will(He did not have any Sankalpa when he was present on Terra Firma)is worth pondering over.
Namaskar.
Hi David,
Many thanks for posting the full “Sparrow” story. Cant tell you how deeply it moved me to learn that Bhagavan had used this story for instruction, and had related it in such loving detail. Will also try and dig up the original Scriptural / Puranic story if possible.
Wonder why on earth the original editor of the English version of the “Letters” edited out such a lovely little anecdote, and deprived the non-Tamil/Telugu readers of a real gem.
Best wishes
Good Carnatic song by Aruna Sairam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcUuzT5-_IA
-Z
Though I posted my comment and it appeared in this thread as No.431, it seems it disappeared. So I will post my comments again.
Thank you very much for your replies, Ravi and Subramanian. R.
To Subramanian. R
Then 'this path of enquiry' in the following extracts may be different from the enquiry 'Who am I?'. It may refers to the traditonal methods in the ancient scriptures. The characters in the scriptures who recieve instructions from their Guru are very mature, so I can understand why Bhagavan limited those who can follow 'this path of enquiry' to only 'ripe souls'.
Extracts from Spiritual Instruction
2. Can this path of enquiry be followed by all aspirants?
This is suitable only for ripe souls. The rest should follow
different methods according to the state of their minds.
Talk 194.
Mr. Subba Rao, a visitor from Amalapuram, asked: How to control the mind?
M.: Get hold of the mind.
D.: How?
M.: Mind is intangible. In fact, it does not exist. The surest way of control is to seek it. Then its activities cease.
Dear m and friends,
Sugambabu writes short zen like poems, translated by Shulman.
'Even then,
whenever
I speak of my troubles
in Telugu
life speaks
Tamil.
A recent Publishers Weekly feature noted that while workaday stress may be hell on the rank and file, it is something akin to heaven for America's publishing industry. Tens of thousands of books marrying spirituality and business have been sold in recent years.
Reading the above just makes you shudder!
glow
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Navadvip introduced his son to the Master. The young man was a student of the scriptures.
He saluted Sri Ramakrishna.
NAVADVIP: "He studies the scriptures at home. Previously one hardly saw a copy of the
Vedas in this country. Max Muller has translated them; so people can now read these
books."
Essence of the scriptures
MASTER: "Too much study of the scriptures does more harm than good. The important
thing is to know the essence of the scriptures. After that, what is the need of books? One
should learn the essence and then dive deep in order to realize God.
Ideal of the Gita
"The Divine Mother has revealed to me the essence of the Vedanta. It is that Brahman
alone is real and the world illusory. The essence of the Gita is what you get by repeating the
word ten times. The word becomes reversed. It is then 'tagi', which refers to renunciation.
The essence of the Gita is: 'O man, renounce everything and practise spiritual discipline for
the realization of God.' "
NAVADVIP: "But how can we persuade our minds to renounce?"
MASTER: "You are a goswami. It is your duty to officiate as priest in the temple. You
cannot renounce the world; otherwise, who would look after the temple and its services?
You have to renounce mentally.
"It is God Himself who has kept you in the world to set an example to men. You may
resolve in your mind a thousand times to renounce the world, but you will not succeed. God
has given you such a nature that you must perform your worldly duties.
"Krishna said to Arjuna: 'What do you mean, you will not fight? By your mere will you
cannot desist from fighting. Your very nature will make you fight.' "
Namaskar.
Arvind
Wonder why on earth the original editor of the English version of the “Letters” edited out such a lovely little anecdote, and deprived the non-Tamil/Telugu readers of a real gem.
Ashram politics, I suspect. Suri Nagamma had apparently been getting complaints from Chinnaswami about her publishing activities. At the end of the original letter Suri Nagamma wrote that the bird story would inspire her in her continuing battles with Chinnaswami.
If the English editor had wanted to avoid controversy, it would have been much better to leave the bird story in and omit the paragraph about her dispute with Chinnaswami.
Hi David, folks,
Thanks for the info on the “Sparrow” story.
Well, some digging into the story both within my books and on the Net reveals a bit of a curious tale. Amazingly, there are absolutely NO scriptural or Puranic sources for it as far as I could ascertain; not even within the “story-collections”, the Pancatantra, Hitopadesa or the Katha Sagar. Though there are superficially similar stories (the “Tittibha” or the small Indian partridge stories) in the latter works, most of the key elements of Bhagavan’s version are missing.
Still, the broad story as related by Bhagavan, somehow, seems to be astonishingly well known. Even one scholarly paper, from as far back as 1919 [Journal of American Oriental Society 1919], mentions an almost identical story. It concludes that the story seems to come separately from remote folklore, from remote oral sources, or possibly from an unknown and lost version of the Pancatantra. It seems to be some sort of Granny’s tale and has been around in different versions from remote antiquity.
Best wishes
Friends,
I wish to share this wonderful poem from Rabindranath Tagore's Gitanjali:
"Early in the day it was whispered that we should sail in a boat,
only thou and I, and never a soul in the world would know of this our
pilgrimage to no country and to no end.
In that shoreless ocean,
at thy silently listening smile my songs would swell in melodies,
free as waves, free from all bondage of words.
Is the time not come yet?
Are there works still to do?
Lo, the evening has come down upon the shore
and in the fading light the seabirds come flying to their nests.
Who knows when the chains will be off,
and the boat, like the last glimmer of sunset,
vanish into the night?"
Namaskar.
Arvind...."It seems to be some sort of Granny’s tale and has been around in different versions from remote antiquity."
it is so apt that our beloved Bhagavan "Ramana Thatha" narrates it :-)
R p
wanted to write this yesterday but somehow did not.
was Anusham, janma nakshatra of another GOD incarnate, the most holy and divine Mahaswami of Kanchi
R p
salutations to all:
ravi & others:
ravi said - ["...Is VichAra as impersonal as s has said?...many were the responses from the Practitioners of Self Enquiry-and all quite different...whether the Practice has undergone any refinement or evolution for those who still figure in this Blog...if it is as independent of the 'Chaos' as s has said,Why is it not coming to an end?..."]
as a good friend told me today, there can be nothing more 'personal' than the 'i' :-). hope one is not confusing the prescription with the application! if a teacher has five students, say in college, all from varying backgrounds & from different schools in different cities/ towns, obviously the teaching is the same for all the five students with no discrimination on the content of the teaching, does it imply that scope & depth of the instruction has been absorbed & assimilated by all the five identically ? of course, not! the prescription is identical, the assimilation is personal, isn't it? bhagavAn recommended vichAra for all but different people would have had different encounters in their respective journeys subject to their individual traits & samskArAs...
hope by asking "Why is it not coming to an end?", you hadn't meant - why haven't all those who do vichAra not got liberated? :-) sorry, for obvious reasons which all of you only understand too well, it's a question which isn't even worth answering! :-))) perhaps, those whose primary method is vichAra are better equipped in avoiding & shielding themselves from the delusional trappings that accompany karma & bhakti :-)
here is a nice excerpt from suri nAgammA's "Letters" where bhagavAn beautifully explains what self-surrender is (page 227 of the PDF): ["“Arjuna had to do the fighting. So Krishna said, ‘Place all the burden on Me, do your duty; you are merely an instrument. I will see to everything. Nothing will bother you.’ But then, before one surrenders to God, one should know who it is that surrenders. Unless all thoughts are given up there can’t be surrender. When there are no thoughts at all, what remains is only the Self. So surrender will only be to one’s Self. If surrender is in terms of bhakti, the burden should be thrown on God, and if it is in terms of karma, karma should be performed until one knows one’s own Self. The result is the same in either case. Surrender means to enquire and know about one’s own Self and then remain in the Self. What is there apart from the Self?”"]
hence, in bhagavAn's method, to 'surrender' is to 'enquire' :-)))
s/Friends,
As far as I understand,Self Enquiry involves setting aside all thoughts and centre the atention on the core 'I' Thought-This involves setting aside all personal associations,habits,predelictions that the average Human mind is used to.There is nothing personal at all about this approach.
Infact the whole reason why jnana Yoga is considered fit only for the mature Sadhaka is on account of this basic Requirement-whereas all the other Yogas admit the Human mind and Personality with its average sense and sensibility as a starting point and intensifies it to a point where it leads to eventual transcendence-the Jnana Yoga approach tackles this frontally,by questioning this very apparent 'Personality' and setting aside the whole thing lock stock and barrel-striking it at its very root.
As long as one is struggling with Thoughts and attachments,Prejudices and preferences,one is far far away from even beginning Self Enquiry.A Certain Quietude is a definite prerequisite-this is equally so for other forms of Yoga as well.This Quietude is not a result of any 'technique'-It is simply the state of Purified mind divested of attachments to sense Objects-through Viveka,vairgaya,Devotion,selfless work(Selfless work is certainly within the realm of Human Sensibility;Yet we are now living in a fast paced world,and are sceptical and wonder whether this is at all possible!!!).
It is only the prepared mind that becomes fit for sadhana,and even more so for Self Enquiry.
Coming to Prescriptions-Prescriptions are always freely available,yet how many care to apply.All spiritual books are full of prescriptions.Even the simplest of prescriptions require discipline and earnestness to actualise.It is here that the application falters.
One of the Gross misconceptions that I have frequently encountered is the Trite disregard of 'karma Yoga',as if one has a choice in doing so and what is more important, one is better off by not falling into the snare of 'Pride' that Karma Yoga would entail!!!(as if it is not there otherwise!).Right from the first breath that we drew on earth,it is only karma,Karma and Karma all the way,whether we are conscious of it or not!Is it not important that an aspirant should pay attention to understanding and mastering what he cannot dispense with?The Choice is between Karma and Karma Yoga -If we care not about karma Yoga ,we just add to our karmic Baggage of Load.Just banking on 'Self Enquiry'(which as s has said is a personal affair-atleast in application)to do course correction,is theoretically okay but does it work in Practice?Quite often,I have found ordinary persons better off than so called Sadhakas in selfless work.
We only need to recall that this Terrestrial sphere is called Karma Bhoomi-it is on this anvil that our rough edges are beaten to smoothness and made pliable,and fit receptacle for the elixir of Bhakti or Jnana.
Namaskar.
Talk 180.
M.: Who is that ‘I’ again? You are identifying yourself with the ego and say ‘I’.
"One of the Gross misconceptions that I have frequently encountered is the Trite disregard of 'karma Yoga' "
Ravi, personally, all the yoga's blend into one......where is the distinction, but in the mind of the person. This is not said flippantly!!
also,
Talk 191.
M.: Patanjali’s first sutra is applicable to all systems of yoga. The aim is the cessation of mental activities. The methods differ. So long as there is effort made towards that goal it is called
yoga. The effort is the yoga. The cessation can be brought about in so many ways.
(1) By examining the mind itself. When the mind is examined, its activities cease automatically. This is the method of jnana. The pure mind is the Self.
(2) Looking for the source of the mind is another method. The source may be said to be God or Self or consciousness.
(3) Concentrating upon one thought make all other thoughts disappear. Finally that thought also disappears; and
(4) Hatha Yoga.
All methods are one and the same inasmuch as they all tend to the same goal.
"Peter,
"Ravi, personally, all the yoga's blend into one......where is the distinction, but in the mind of the person. This is not said flippantly!!"
Yes,Thanks very much!I Have posted this earlier.Yet,in the actual Practice,each approach does have key characteristics.
Just like 'Hunger' is a 'Feeling' or 'Thought' and yet it has to be appeased only by taking Food(Physical activity)and cannot be annuled by another 'Thought'-In like manner,Physical activity is called for in other cases as well.
It is only those who are totally above Body Consciousness,they alone can dispense with most of the externals,and are in a position to pursue the Path of Jnana Exclusively.
This is why Sri Ramakrishna says:
"But in the Kaliyuga, man, being totally dependent on food for life, cannot altogether shake
off the idea that he is the body. In this state of mind it is not proper for him to say, 'I am
He.' When a man does all sorts of worldly things, he should not say, 'I am Brahman.' Those
who cannot give up attachment to worldly things, and who find no means to shake off the
feeling of 'I', should rather cherish the idea 'I am God's servant; I am His devotee.' One can
also realize God by following the path of devotion."
I am not saying that 'Self Enquiry' will not work or should be given up(Human mind is good at jumping to conclusions!)-Only saying that one needs to be watchful to include the whole of Life-Every moment counts-and has to be handled appropriately;Not reduce it to a Formula.
Namaskar.
Ravi said:
"As long as one is struggling with Thoughts and attachments,Prejudices and preferences,one is far far away from even beginning Self Enquiry"
One of the effects of Self Enquiry is that attachments, prejudices etc., fall off on the way. I dont think these have to be warded off before starting Self Enquiry. Bhagavan also endorsed this view and He told that Moral perfection etc., come as a result of Self Enquiry.
I think if anyone has a conviction (in whatever degree) that one is separate from the emotions, thoughts etc., that is an indication of his readiness to take up Self-Enquiry. He may not be able to control them but he knows that irrespective of their severity, they are separate from him, I think he is ready.
I don't think having this conviction/idea is a small thing. In my own life, I have seen only a very few people till now who has this view. So, I think this view will come as a result of Good Karma of past lives etc., and this means that the person can take up Self-Enquiry. Ofcourse, there is another element of his past samskaras and the type of sadhana he has done previously.
My observation is that once a person has this view that he is separate from his thoughts/emotions, it will not leave him.
Regards Murali
Murali,
"I think if anyone has a conviction (in whatever degree) that one is separate from the emotions, thoughts etc., that is an indication of his readiness to take up Self-Enquiry. He may not be able to control them but he knows that irrespective of their severity, they are separate from him, I think he is ready."
Yes,Murali-It is part of Viveka, vairagya-a certain ability to detach from the flux of thoughts and emotions is indeed helpful-Yet,this is a sort of uneasy truce.Any moment one can be sucked into the Vortex.
A more positive state is Quietude where the Flux of Habitual Thoughts and Emotions is quelled.
Ultimately if Earnestness and Diligence are there,be it any path,Success is assured irrespective whatever apparent Difficulties one may face.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
ravi/murali/others:
page 276 (PDF) of 'day by day with bhagavAn':
["K.M. Jivrajani: It is said in books that one should cultivate all the good or daivic qualities in order to prepare oneself for Self-realisation.
Bhagavan: All good or daivic qualities are included in jnana and all bad asuric qualities are included in ajnana. When jnana comes all ajnana goes and all daivic qualities come automatically. If a man is a jnani he cannot utter a lie or do anything wrong. It is, no doubt, said in some books that one should cultivate one quality after another and thus prepare for ultimate moksha, but for those who follow the jnana or vichara marga their sadhana is itself quite enough for acquiring all daivic qualities; they need not do anything else."]
am no expert in self-enquiry (that's obvious, i guess) :-))), but save & except the inclination to do so, vichAra has no other pre-requisites; one need not bother at all about one's preparedness in terms of viveka & vairAgya to commence vichAra! neither is there any need to give up all associations/ habits/ predilections etc. etc. and then do enquiry; on the contrary, as murali indicated, to the one who "does" vichAra the hold of all 'baggages' begins to decline & drop away by themselves :-))) on a 'personal' note, nothing is 'impersonal' (hahahaha) - everything is of the 'i', for the 'i', by the 'i'; the self may be impersonal but the search is/can be nothing but personal :-)))
Ravi Said:
"Yes,Murali-It is part of Viveka, vairagya-a certain ability to detach from the flux of thoughts and emotions is indeed helpful"
I think it is deeper. Viveka and Vairagya are pre-requisites for even entering the spiritual path (which ever path it might be). This does not mean that the path is Self-enquiry.
My view is that having an inkling that your "identity" has nothing to do with whatever happens in the mind (thoughts, emotions etc.,) and world (events, situations) is something which cannot come without maturity (i.e., good past karma, life times of experiences etc.,). Once this inkling is there, the person should simply jump into Self-Enquiry. If this is not there, anyway, the person will not take up Self Enquiry since he may not even understand what he is trying to achieve.
I am no authority in this but this is what I think.
Regards Murali
Murali,
Please go along with your understanding.
Wish You the very Best.
Namaskar.
R.Subramanian,
Looking forward to your posts.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
subramanian:
sir, hope you didn't get offended :-( no offence was ever meant or intended. forget bhagavAn's will - "bhagavAn's will" is like a classic; a 'classic' is one that everyone talks about but no one reads! likewise, most of us utter "bhagavAn's will" with little or no clue as to what it could possibly mean :-))) - i neither know nor wish to know bhagavAn's will, if any, but it is surely our 'wish' (& 'will'!) that you may please continue to exercise your 'will' and contribute with your pertinent comments :-)
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
MASTER: "In a certain village there lived a weaver. He was a very pious,soul. Everyone
trusted him and loved him. He used to sell his goods in the market-place. When a customer
asked him the price of a piece of cloth, the weaver would say: 'By the will of Rama the
price of the yarn is one rupee and the labour four annas ; by the will of Rama the profit is
two annas . The price of the cloth, by the will of Rama, is one rupee and six annas .' Such
was the people's faith in the weaver that the customer would at once pay the price and take
the cloth. The weaver was a real devotee of God. After finishing his supper in the evening,
he would spend long hours' in the worship hall meditating on God and chanting His name
and glories. Now, late one night the weaver couldn't get to sleep. He was sitting in the
worship hall, smoking now and then, when a band of robbers happened to pass that way.
They wanted a man to carry their goods and said to the weaver, 'Come with us.' So saying,
they led him off by the hand. After committing a robbery in a house, they put a load of
things on the weaver's head, commanding him to carry them. Suddenly the police arrived
and the robbers ran away. But the weaver, with his load, was arrested. He was kept in the
lock-up for the night. Next day he was brought before the magistrate for trial. The villagers
learnt what had happened and came to court. They said to the magistrate, 'Your Honour,
this man could never commit a robbery.' Thereupon the magistrate asked the weaver to
make his statement.
'The weaver said: 'Your Honour, by the will of Rama I finished my meal at night. Then by
the will of Rama I was sitting in the worship hall. It was quite late at night by the will of
Rama. By the will of Rama I had been thinking of God and chanting His name and glories,
when by the will of Rama a band of robbers passed that way. By the will of Rama they
dragged me with them; by the will of Rama they committed a robbery in a house; and by
the will of Rama they put a load on my head. Just then, by the will of Rama the police
arrived, and by the will of Rama I was arrested. Then by the will of Rama the police kept
me in the lock-up for the night, and this morning by the will of Rama I have been brought
before Your Honour.' The magistrate realized that the weaver was a pious man and ordered
his release. On his way home the weaver said to his friends, 'By the will of Rama I have
been released.'
Namaskar.
Hi folks,
Great to read so many posts on whether Atma Vichara is suitable for all or some and so on.
In this context, for a change, I thought to put up some quotes from another self-realized being, one who started from scratch with Atma Vichara. He didn’t fit the stereotypes for a sadhaka on the so called “Jnana Marg”, not being particularly learned or bright or being an intellectual. His Self-realization did not come spontaneously as it did for our Bhagavan, but as a result of hard sadhana. This is what he, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, has to say:
(prob from “I am That” – sorry, I neglected to write the source when the extracts were copied by me some time ago).
“Trust the teacher. Take my case. My Guru ordered me to attend to the sense ‘I am’ and to give attention to nothing else. I just obeyed. I did not follow any particular course of breathing or meditation, or study of scriptures. Whatever happened I would turn away my attention from it and remain with the sense ‘I am’. It may look too simple, even crude. My only reason for doing it was that my Guru told me so. Yet it worked! Obedience is a powerful solvent of all desires and fears.”
“To begin with, trust me, trust the teacher. It enables you to make the first step - and then your trust is justified by your own experience.”
“No way to self-realization is short or long, but some people are more in earnest and some are less. I can tell you about myself. I was a simple man, but I trusted my Guru. What he told me to do, I did. He told me to concentrate on ‘I am’ – I did. He told me that I am beyond all perceivables and conceivables – I believed. I gave my heart and soul, my entire attention and the whole of my spare time (I had to work to keep family alive). As a result of faith and earnest application, I realized my self (‘swarupa’) within three years.”
---------------------------------
We don’t need any pre-requisites in starting and doing Atma Vichara. Only a solid, unshakeable faith in Sri Bhagavan, and a bull-headed, obstinate determination to carry it through.
Best wishes
Talk 101.
D.: I understand but I cannot feel it so.
M.: Whose is the ignorance? Find it out.
D.: All this is so difficult.
M.: The idea of difficulty is itself wrong. It will not help you to gain what you want.
Again I ask: “Who finds it difficult?”
D.: I see that I am coming round to ‘I’.
M.: Because you are always that and never away from that. There is nothing so simple as being the Self. It requires no effort, no aid. One has to leave off the wrong identity and be in his eternal, natural, inherent state.
any one who takes up Self-inquiry is ready, any one who doesnt, isnt
that said,
what is Self-inquiry but self surrender. surrendering the 'I's objects, returning to subject and staying there
self-surrender takes many forms, selfless service for example, surrendering the notion of 'doer'
.
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"What is knowledge? And what is the nature of this ego? 'God alone is the Doer, and none
else' - that is knowledge. I am not the doer; I am a mere instrument in His hand. Therefore I
say: 'O Mother, Thou art the Operator and I am the machine. Thou art the Indweller and I
am the house. Thou art the Driver and I am the carriage. I move as Thou movest me. I do as
Thou makest me do. I speak as Thou makest me speak. Not I, not I, but Thou, but Thou.' "
Namaskar.
Folks,
Proof of the pudding is in the eating.The best way is to waste no time in discussing what is or is not suitable to ALL.There is no such thing as One solution to All in any field at any time in this world.The best way is to practise and see it for urself.If you believe it strongly you would practise it bars no discussion here.What is useful discussion here is not to hide behind the Great souls and talk or use play of words or skill full articulation of Statements by taking them out of CONTEXT.What I like to hear is what is your personal practical experience on it?What tips can you give us?I have already told you my personal take.Atma Vichara is really for those who truly(inner) desires 'Suicide of the Ego'.It is not for one with external or outward dispassion while the core is full of desires.For such people the non-AtmaVichara methods work with our Desires.WHEN IT IS NOT SUITABLE TO ME HOW CAN IT BE A CHOICE?For eg:non-ritual Karma Yoga might gradually grind our ego while also fulfilling one's desire for Self-attention, winning etc.Bhakthi might engage our Fear and wish fulfilling while also emptying our Ego into the God.The other methods may or may not give us Moksha but they will make us fit for AV.You will have to find this out for yourself and not argue why Bhagawan was not explicit on the pre-requisites for AV.The incident of a devotee suggesting he be explicit in the Malayalam translation about Vedic Chanting by non-brahmins during the translation of book into Malayalam is a superb and most important example while interpreting the 'Word'.Great Souls have to balance their pithy words taking into question myriad conditions of age, culture, practicality, interpretation, future, balance between timelessness and usefullness and many many such.
It is also wrong to say not doing Atma Vichara is lack of Faith.Mathru Sri Sarada surely had greatest levels of faith in the Guru.AV is also not about 'Ripeness'.All the advanced devotees of Bhagawan like Murugunar who did not take up AV cannot be graded as unripe devotees.So it is not *just/only* about:
A)Ripeness
B)Lack of Faith
C)Lack of knowledge of AV or difficulty of AV
D)Lack of Sraddha and Saburi(Faith and one pointedness)
[contd]
-Z
[contd]
It is mostly about Predilection.It might be more healthy/effective to eat tinned food packed with all vitamins and minerals like our Pets or chapaatis instead of Rice but would you?Then how does the question of 'Effectiveness' arise every single time.The question of 'Order of Effectiveness' does not arise in a vast majority of the cases.
I feel Bhagawan was also political in a positive way about his statements purely for the benefit of the devotees.There is no other way.AV and Advaita was his niche.He remembered all the time why he came here for even when asked about condition of women in India or the Independence of India or the poverty or the wars.AV was his Tag line.He cannot be everything to everyone but something to most and everything to some.If Bhagawan thought that 'Effectiveness' is the *only* criteria then why did he prescirbe different methods to different people which includes both Ripe and Unripe devotees?
EFFECTIVENESS IS A FACTOR TO CONSIDER ONLY WHEN THERE IS REAL CHOICE NOT AN IDEAL WORLD SITUATION OF EVERY SAADHAKA HAVING A CHOICE OF A FEW METHODS.AMONG THE CRITERIA, PREDILECTION CARRIES A VERY HIGH WEIGHTAGE IF NOT ALL.The idea of choice arises due to ignorance.The best way is to practise all for brief periods.In the high flying Banking and Consulting jobs trainess are assigned brief periods in many departments and at the end of the training period one has to make a choice into which department he will specialize his career.
The problem arises for us to understand Bhagawan becuase when writing Great scriptures greatest care need to be taken to make it timeless.The job of making it fit for an age/condition goes to the many Bhaashya and Vaartika.That is the reason I guess there are different commentaries by Lakshmana Sharma and Ganapathi Muni.Do you think Vyaasa was foolish to write very pithy Brahma Sutras instead of fully explaining them?
Regards,
-Z
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"The pundit and Mani Mallick became engaged in conversation. Mani was a member of the
Brahmo Samaj. The pundit argued vehemently about the good and bad sides of the Samaj.
Sri Ramakrishna was seated on the small couch and looked on, smiling. Presently he
remarked: "This is the tamasic aspect of sattva, the attitude of a hero. This is necessary.
One should not hold one's tongue at the sight of injustice and untruth. Suppose a bad
woman wants to drag you from the path of righteousness. You must then assume the heroic
attitude and say: 'What? You witch! You dare injure my spiritual life? I shall cut your body
in two right now.' "
With a smile Sri Ramakrishna said to the pundit: "Mani Mallick has been following the
tenets of the Brahmo Samaj a long time. You can't convert him to your views. Is it an easy
thing to destroy old tendencies? Once there lived a very pious Hindu who always
worshipped the Divine Mother and chanted Her name. When the Mussalmans conquered
the country, they forced him embrace Islam. They said to him: 'You are now a Mussalman.
Say "Allah". From now on you must repeat only the name of Allah.' With great difficulty
he repeated the word 'Allah', but every now and then blurted out 'Jagadamba'. At that the
Mussalmans were about to beat him. Thereupon he said to them: 'I beseech you! Please do
not kill me. I have been trying my utmost to repeat the name of Allah, but our Jagadamba
has filled me up to the throat. She pushes out your Allah.' (All laugh.)
Different paths to suit different tastes
(To the pundit) "Please don't say anything to Mani Mallick. You must know that there are
different tastes. There are also different powers of digestion. God has made different
religions and creeds to suit different aspirants. By no means all are fit for the Knowledge of
Brahman. Therefore the worship of God with form has been provided.
"The mother brings home a fish for her children. She curries part of the fish, part she fries,
and with another part she makes pilau. By no means all can digest the pilau. So she makes
fish soup for those who have weak stomachs. Further, some want pickled or fried fish.
There are different temperaments. There are differences in the capacity to comprehend."
All sat in silence. Sri Ramakrishna said to the pundit, "Go and visit the temples and take a
stroll in the garden." It was about half past five in the afternoon. The pundit left the room
with his friends and several of the devotees."
Namaskar.
Visiting the Hill of Fire:
At the outset, I am thankful to Ravi and Anon., who remembered me and told about my absence. I had been to Arunachala with my wife for three days from 15th June to 17th afternoon. Due to repairs in Morvi Guest House, accommodation is restricted by the Asramam and it needs three months' notice to obtain approval. My request sent out in April was approved for three days from 15th June. We travelled in the car and reached the Asramam by 10.30 AM on Wednesday. It was a lunar eclipse day and so the people had been thronging the girivalam road right from 3 pm to finish the girivalam by at least 7 pm. In the Asramam too, routine work has been slightly disclocated without book reading in the afternoon and there was no Tamizh parayana as well. The Tamizh parayana was going on when we entered the Samadhi Hall. It was Devi Kalottaram! We listened to it completely, went back immediately to the post office guesthouse room to dump our things and came back again by 3.30 PM. to Samadhi Hall. It was half empty and we could have darshan of Ramaneswara Maha Lingam quite nicely. In the evening, but before the preponed dinner time of 6.30 PM. there was Sri Chakra Puja in Mother's Temple, being the first day of the month. After seeing the Sri Chakra Puja, we went for dinner at 6.30 PM. and came back amidst the milling crowd on the road going for girivalam. We had no time to go to the bookshop that day. We came back to the room and were only chanting Arunachala Akshramana Maalai and Sri Ramana Ashottaram. And went to sleep, since we were travel weary even by 9.00 pm.
contd.,
Visiting the Hill of Fire:
continues....
On Thursday morning, we took an early bath [eclipse had ended by
3.05 am. So the bath could be taken by 4.30 am. And went to Samadhi Hall by 5.00 am. The milk puja was started for Sri Ramaneswara Maha Lingam by 6. am. I decided to do 12 pradakshinas for Samadhi before the puja started. After the milk puja, the breakfast was taken. The priest on enquiry told us that there will be an elaborate morning puja for Sri Ramaneswara Maha Lingam, in the morning itself, which would start at 10.15 a.m. So we went to Giri Pradakshina in car {!} since at no time, with my knee pain, I could do full giripradakshina on foot. {Like Vajrangatha Pandyan story, the car will attain moksha and not us!] We came back around 9.30 am. As usual, I went inside the shrines of Adi Annamalai, Ner Annamalai and Manikkavachagar temple and Isanya Math. Is Isanya Math, the priest informed us that though the advaita serial books have not been published beyond 4 volumes, they have brought out Bhagavad Gita Venba, by Pattanar. Pattanar has composed the entire BG in Venba verses and it is a rarity. Anna Subramanya Iyer of SRK Math, Chennai has spoken highly of this Pattanar Gita Venba. I bought this book - Rs 200/- written in 545 verses with prose commentary by one Ponnambalam Swamigal of Koivlur Math. After finishing the giri valam, we remembered our commitment to meet Swami Shantananada Shivapuri Swamigal, who is in Tiruvannamalai since 6 moths. He is staying in A1 - Korangu Thottam. We went to him with some fruits around 9.30 a.m. he was speaking kindly to us on various matters like - whether Jnana alone would confer liberation; what about karma and yoga margas? Whether there is fruit of Karma to be suffered in next births etc., He also talked about Osho's brilliant intellect but how he became a fallen angel later in his life., etc.,etc.,
While taking leave, he said - please go to the samadhis of Cohen,Chadwick, Lucy Ma [Hunting the 'I' and H.R. Khanna. He added a namaskaram to their samadhis is worth going to temples 10 times.
We went to these four samadhis and offered our prayer to bless us.
We rushed back to Samadhi Hall and had darshan of full fledged puja for Sri Ramaneswara Maha Lingam, At the end, before Arti, one Telugu lady had sung a beautiful Telugu song on Sri Bhagavan. After the puja, I did 12 pradakshinas for Samadhi and then we quickly moved to bookshop and bought: a. Spiritual Stories as told by Maharshi. b. The Cow Lakshmi's full story with colourful drawings. c. My life at Sri Ramanasramam, Suri Nagamma d. Direct Teaching of Sri Bhagavan, V. Ganesan., first printed only in 2003 and reprinted in 2011.
That morning Swami Shantananda Sivapuri had told my wife: If you find Sri Bhagavan's philosophy first, then read the reminiscences of devotees. There are 18 of them, in different names. All are worth in gold. This will show you a route to do self inquiry. So my wife was busy picking up reminiscences.
We took our dinner at 7.30 PM. and returned to our room. I did not
this time, went to Old Hall at all for meditation, since sitting in Samadhi Hall itself was quietening my mind.
In the afternoon, we went to Samadhi Hall by 3.00 p.m. and sat there in meditation. After tea at 4.00 pm., the book reading session [which was restored om that evening] started. The Tamizh reading was Suri Nagamma's Letters and English reading was her own Recollections. It was nice to read them in the group with some Western devotees either reading or simply listening to them.
The evening puja started at 5.00 pm., It was a comparatively shorter puja for Mother's Temple and Sri Ramaneswara Mahalingam. Arti was shown at 5.55 p.m. Then the Tamizh parayana started at 6.20 pm.
contd.,
Visiting the Hill of Fire:
Thursday continues...
Since it was Thursday evening, the
Tamizh parayana was consisting of Atma Sakshat Prakaranam and Bhagavad Gita Saram. In the morning, Swami Shanatananda Puri had told us that he has written a book recently on 42 verse - Bhagavad Gits Saram of Sri Bhagavan, with anecdotes interleaved, as taken from Talks and other conversations of Sri Bhagavan. My wife purchased it this morning.
After food, we had been Seshadri Swami Asramam and after having darshan of Sri Dakshinamurty on the way on the road [it was Thursday and was very crowded]. After having darshan of Seshadri Swami's Samadhi, we sat in front of Sri Dakshinamurty on the back yard of the Ashram and meditated for a while. We could see the dark Arunachala at the backdrop. It was a nice experience with breeze flowing.
In Seshadri Ashram, the bookshop was still open. It is open till 9 pm. He had kept ready Tirupugazh with all 1321 verses, a rare publications from Indus Publications, Chennai. This is almost the entire collection of Arunagiri Natha's songs under Tiruppugazh.
We returned to the guest room and after reading Suri Nagamma's Recollections and Sri Ganesan's book and one or two spiritual stories as told by Sri Bhagavan, we went to sleep.
A good crowd from Andhra Pradesh had come that late night and almost occupied all the guest rooms of Post Office Guest House that night.
David Godman, I believe last year, you posted quotes of Sri Bhagavan, in which sexuality was not considered an obstacle.
I was reading Guru Vachaka Kovai, and longing for sense pleasures is greatly decried. I guess if sexuality is something that occurs during prarabdha, it is fine, but to long, or lust for sex, and pursue it, would seem based on my readings to be greatly incorrect?
R.Subramanian,
Good to see your detailed account on the visit to Sri Ramanasramam.It confirmed my hunch that you have gone there!Interesting to note that Sri Bhagavan made you listen to Devi Kalottaram!
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Ego separates one from Brahman
MASTER: "Now let me tell you something that will agree with your mood. According to
the Vedanta one has to know the real nature of one's own Self. But such knowledge is
impossible without the renunciation of ego. The ego is like a stick that seems to divide the
water in two. It makes you feel that you are one and I am another. When the ego disappears
in samadhi, then one knows Brahman to be one's own inner consciousness.
"One must renounce the 'I' that makes one feel, 'I am Mahima Chakravarty', 'I am a learned
man', and so on. But the 'ego of Knowledge' does not injure one. Sankaracharya retained
the 'ego of Knowledge' in order to teach mankind.
Warning about lust
"One cannot obtain the Knowledge of Brahman unless one is extremely cautious about
women. Therefore it is very difficult for those who live in the world to get such
Knowledge. However clever you may be, you will stain your body if you live in a sooty
room. The company of a young woman evokes lust even in a lustless man.
"But it is not so harmful for a householder who follows the path of knowledge to enjoy
conjugal happiness with his own wife now and then. He may satisfy his sexual impulse like
any other natural impulse. Yes, you may enjoy a sweetmeat once in a while.
(Mahimacharan laughs.) It is not so harmful for a householder.
Hard discipline for sannyasi
"But it is extremely harmful for a sannyasi. He must not look even at the portrait of a
woman. A monk enjoying a woman is like a man swallowing the spittle he has already spat
out. A sannyasi must not sit near a woman and talk to her, even if she is intensely pious.
No, he must not talk to a woman even though he may have controlled his passion.
"A sannyasi must renounce both 'woman' and 'gold'. As he must not look even at the
portrait of a woman, so also he must not touch gold, that is to say, money. It is bad for him
even to keep money near him, for it brings in its train calculation, worry, insolence, anger,
and such evils. There is an instance in the sun: it shines brightly; suddenly a cloud appears
and hides it.
"That is why I didn't agree to the Marwari's depositing money for me with Hriday. I said:
'No, I won't allow even that. If I keep money near me, it will certainly raise clouds.'
"Why all these strict rules for a sannyasi? It is for the welfare of mankind as well as for his
own good. A sannyasi may himself lead an unattached life and may have controlled his
passion, but he must renounce 'woman and gold' to set an example to the world.
"A man will have the courage to practise renunciation if he sees one hundred percent
renunciation in a sannyasi. Then only will he try to give up 'woman and gold'. If a sannyasi
does not set this example, then who will?
"One may lead a householder's life after realizing God. It is like churning butter from milk
and then keeping the butter in water. Janaka led the life of a householder after attaining
Brahmajnana.
"Janaka fenced with two swords, the one of jnana and the other of karma. The sannyasi
renounces action; therefore he fences with one sword only, that of knowledge. A
householder, endowed with knowledge like Janaka's, can enjoy fruit both from the tree and
from the ground. He can serve holy men, entertain guests, and do other things like that. I
said to the Divine Mother, 'O Mother, I don't want to be a dry sadhu.'
Namaskar.
Talk 139
M.: "It" can be gained only by keeping the ‘I-I’ always in view. So the need for the investigation of the ‘I’ thought.
Visiting the Hill of Fire:
On Friday, the 17th, we had planned to go very early in the morning, say around 6.30 am to Big Temple, since it was a Friday and the crowd would be more. We took bath, skipped our Asramam breakfast and rushed to the Big Temple. It was less crowded since it was early morning hours
and we first had the darshan of Kambattu Ilayanar. I was remembering Muruga coming to Arunagiri Natha and others when the saint poet sang the famous Tiruppugazh, athala sedanaar aada...
We then quickly went to see TiRai KoNda Vinayakar, who came when Guhai Namasivaya called for Siva's help. The Tiru AruNai Thani Venba, Soolam karathirukka, jothi mahzu maan irukka... had been written at the entrance of the shrine and it is a pleasure to read it every time I visit Big Temple. From there, after seeing other shrines, we went to have darshan of Annamalaiyar. It was around 7.00 am., and the crowd was surprisingly less. The Cute Little Father was being given morning abhishekam and we had His darshan and spent some 10 minutes there. Since they would put the screen for alankaram, we had to leave and go to Unnamulai Amma. She had finished her bath earlier than her husband and was nicely dressed in bright red sari. We had a good and leisurely darsan of Unnamualai Amma also and then came out of the temple around 8 am. We had our breakfast in a nearby hotel and then came back to the Asramam.
Being a Friday, puja in Mother's Temple was more elaborate and then it was followed by puja, abhishekam and arti for Ramaneswara Maha Lingam. The pujas at the both the temple had been over by about 10.45 am. We then went to bookstall and then to office to pay our respects to people there. On that third morning, Venkatesh in the bookstall suggested to me to buy the new Aruna of the Golden Fire - Sri Ramana's Lingam of Wisdom and Light, a photographic contribution by Michael Highburger. The book like the earlier two ones of the same type, is a wonderful concept and design with many photographs of Sri Bhagavan and Arunachala, with quotes from Talks etc.,
Both Mr. Ramanan and Mr. Mani were out of station and so we took leave of Dr. Srinivasamurty and Mr. Kannan, saying that we would be vacating the guest house room by 2.00 pm.
We had our lunch at 11.30 am. as usual and spent some more time in Samadhi Hall and returned to the room by 12.45 pm. On the way back we could see Ilayaraja, the Tamizh music director had come there, for attending the Friday evening Sri Chakra Puja and also to pay respects to Sri Bhagavan and Mother.
We left T'malai around 1.30 pm and reached Bangalore around in about five and a half hours.
In all it was a satisfying trip and I have to thank only Sri Bhagavan for making that possible.,
Concluded.
Visiting the Hill of Fire:
Swami Shantananda Shivapuri whom we met in Korangu Thottam guest room on Thursday morning, made the following observations during his conversations with us. These are all his view and not necessarily mine.
1. Sri Bhagavan took avatara only to teach about Jnana Vichara Marga. His main ideas are that only Jnana can confer liberation and one need not adopt any other methods like karma, bhakti, yoga. He has also said that only ripe souls are fit for Jnana Vichara Marga. He approved bhakti which
should blossom into self surrender. He definitely did not recommend karma and yoga margas.
2. Now how can one find that one is a ripe soul. The very fact that you love Sri Bhagavan and come to see Him or be in the Presence, itself is an indication. There are lakhs of people in T'malai itself and not all of them come to the Asramam. But people from foreign countries and even from far off places in India come to Sri Ramanasramam, spend some days or weeks or months and attain peace. They are encouraged in a very subtle manner to do Jnana Vichara. Many people [like Suri Nagamma] started their life only with bhakti and reading bhakti literature like Srimad Bhagavatam but they were attracted
to Him in some mysterious ways.
3. How does Jnana Vichara differ from others. There was a man who suddenly had an obsessive thought that he is a horse. He started braying and asked for horsegram to eat. He was taken to 100 temples. In all temples he was only braying and was asked to get out. He then was recommended to walk and do some work. But he said that he wants a cart to be tied behind him for walking. So bhakti and karma margas did not "liberate" him from his obsession that he was a horse. He was then asked to do breathing exercises and yoga. For each inhaling and exhaling breaths, he was thinking I am a horse, I am a horse and was braying. Finally he was sent to a psychiatrist - [Jnana Guru]. He tapped his head and told him: O fellow, you are a man, you are a man and not a horse. Say "I am a man and not a horse", "I am a man and not a horse". Over a period of time, he started getting the conviction that he is a man and not a horse. He stopped asking for horse gram. He started behaving like a real man. Like this story, only a Jnana Guru can tell that You are the Self and all that is required is to remove the obsession that you are not a non-Self.
****
Visiting the Hill of Fire:
Swami Shantananda Shivapuri continued:
Once when Druva did penance for 6 months and Maha Vishnu appeared before him, the sages of Naimisaranya got annoyed, 'how come Druva gets Narayana darsanam within 6 months and we are languishing here for years without any such boon'. Suddenly there appeared a very old Sage who said to them, 'I shall clarify your doubts, come along with me'. He took all of them in a boat and after a long journey, he showed a white heap of mountain like skeletons. 'See these are the skeletons left behind by Druva in his innumerable previous births where he died while doing tapas and his skins were eaten away by vultures and these bones have only remained this long. So only after various births in tapas, he could see Narayana in 6 months.' Druva is already a ripe soul when born. So he got Narayana darsanam in 6 months in this birth. But, poor thing, he wanted to rule the kingdom and also to sit on the lap of his father. So he had to spend some more years as a king and then attain moksha. 'Have you been ripe souls like him?' The rishis kept quiet then.
2. About Osho. Osho was a brilliant intellectual right from young age and he did sadhana too. But as prarabdha would have it, he was lured by rich Americans, their wealth and the women there and he lost his sadhana benefits in no time, and he fell down like a rubber ball down the staircase, very fast. When he returned to Pune, he had only his intellect, left behind and no balance of sadhana. He had 364 Rolls Royces but no spiritual wealth to take him further to attainment. But otherwise, he was a ripe soul trapped by kamini kanchanam due to prarabdha. [Swami had spent one year with Osho during his pre-America years.].
About Karma : The karma business is also false. Where is karmic effect? When every birth of yours is a dream like thing, how can the happenings of your yesterday's dream have any effect on your today's dream? All are dreams only. Do not have any anxiety about all these dreams and live your life striving for liberation either through surrender or through enquiry.
concluded.
Dear S.,
Yes. I agree that many many people say it is all God's will or Sri Bhagavan's will, but will not act as per the will of God or Sri Bhagavan.
In my humble way, I have been trying to act in this life as per Sri Bhagavan's will, in a honest way.
Many of my T'malai trips, I ask Him whether I can make it and if so whether I can write to Asramam for accommodation. Many times, He has given me an indication.
Once in one of my visits to Asramam, I was talking to J. Jayaraman of Centenary Library. He is scholar extraordinary in Tamizh and Sanskrit. He was casually mentioning about Ozhivil Odukkam and also about Kovilur Math, which he said would be publishing advaita texts in Tamizh. Mostly Tamizh Nadu maths are Saiva Siddhanta Maths and Kovilur is an exception. They have selected about 16 books on advaita in Tamizh and have kept them as syllabus for their Tamizh Vedapatasala boys. JJ further said that Kovilur Math is managing Isanya Math in the eastern side of girivalam route and I should enquire further to them. I said yes and came back. Next day, I had to go for girivalam and in the Isanya Math, I met one old gentleman who was a priest and after arti and contribution, broached to him about these books. He said three volumes had since come and I can buy if I want. I was horipilated. Only before starting for girivalam, I had prayed to Sri Bhagavan that if He wished I might get hold of these books and if I get, I would present one set to Centenary Library through J. Jayaraman. I bought two sets and after finishing girivalam I gave one set to J. Jayaraman. He was equally astonished.
Another incident happened about 4 years back. My son at that time, was working for Dauetshe Bank, Singapore and due to global recession in 2006-07, he was to be served a pink slip soon. He said he will stay in Singapore and try for an alternate job, say in one or two months time. I remember, it was Feb 2007 and I told him that he should try everything and he is getting a new job on 4th April. This date was just coming within me as if Sri Bhagavan was telling me.
My son tried for some jobs in the two months and ultimately joined Goldman Sachs in Hong Kong on 4th April 2007!
Nin ishtam en ishtam
Irunthapadiye iru
guru aruL cheluthum vazhikke sel.
*****
Dear Sri Subramanian,
"Nin ishtam en ishtam
Irunthapadiye iru
guru aruL cheluthum vazhikke sel. "
Can you kindly provide the translation of the above?
Regards Murali
Dear Murali,
Sri Bhagavan used to say these three sentences often. Each one is a Maha Vakya like Tat Tvam Asi, I would say.
Nin ishtam En ishtam:
Your wish is my wish. {I will not operate my free will and act accordingly.} It denotes total surrender. "Your" here means God. Saint Tirunavukkarasar also has said: Nin kadan adiyenaium thaanguthal, en kadan paNi seithu
kidappathe. Your duty is to take care of me. My duty is to serve you and be quiet, [without any hankering of my own].
Iruntha padiye Iru - Be as you are. Be in the real state of yours, with out any adjuncts. Sri Bhagavan told this to Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni. Why waste time on mantra japa and other such sadhanas? Be as you are. Be still and find out where the sound of mantras get quiescent.
GuruvaruL cheluthum vazhikke sel: Go as directed by the grace of Guru. [Do not try to use your free will, and try to make your own way. Go by the directions of guru. This is saranagati. In total surrender, it is the guru's grace which should guide you and not your ego. This Sri Bhagavan said to Mother Azagamma. He told Her, be in total surrender to god. Do not ask me to come to Tiruchuzhi and other places. Leave everything to god and surrender.
****
"Each one is a Maha Vakya like Tat Tvam Asi, I would say."
Indeed they are. Thanks for writing these.
Regards Murali
salutations to all:
subramanian:
nice to see your comments :-) also appreciate your sentiments about bhagavAn's will, my way of thinking is a bit different though. i do agree that perhaps we all tend to especially associate any unusually favourable occurrence(s) to bhagavAn's will! a recent incident in my case too reminded me of bhagavAn's will, but at the same time, something in me also refuses to allow me to dwell in such attributions (surely, i don't have the courage to attribute the unusually 'adverse' incidents as well to bhagavAn, which at least for now, haven't grown up to do so!). in a way, what in life isn't a blessing? yet, in another, am reluctant to be influenced by the trifles bhagavAn may allegedly throw at me (oh, aruNAchalA can keep such plantains & pumpkins with himself :-))). will be happy to not have all of life's 'favourable' stuff for a single good spell of vichAra :-))) one such 'lethal shot' will do, wouldn't it? :D
if a day comes, when i don't question, don't recommend, don't rationalise, don't analyse anything of this world ('me' included obviously), not even think to say 'bhagavAn's will' (why say the obvious after all?), then indeed would have scratched the surface of 'bhagavAn's will'. it's perhaps true that most of us would strongly prefer to say 'bhagavAn's will', as & when a situation warrants it, instead of an 'i don't know', but the simple 'i don't know' (both to so-called good/bad events) appears to me as a more honest statement than the beaten phrase of 'god's will' :-) am certainly not grown up to claim this, but yet i would indeed love to cling to aruNAchalA with all love & not with a need for any kind of security (will get there, after all what else is life for?) :-)))
Hi Subramanian,
“Sri Bhagavan used to say these three sentences often”.
Is this, and the three sentences themselves, taken from a Tamil compilation? Grateful if you would tell the source from where you obtained this information.
Best wishes
Dear S and Subramanyam,
For a start Bhagawan many times warned that Bhagawan has no Sankalpa(Jnaana) [or] All is his Sankalpa(Surrender).This is The Riddle of Life.Like Robert Adams put it (not exact words):That's the game.Dont try to crack it becuase you will never be able to; just play along. What I undertand is: Suit yourself:)
Regards,
-Z
R.Subramanaian/s/friends,
There is substance in all these points of view.The Problem with Intellect and Logic is that it can tear things apart but has no clue how to put things in perspective,especially in matters related to faith.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Hazra entered the room and sat with the devotees on the floor. Hazra repeated now and
then, "Soham! Soham!" "I am He! I am He!"
To Latu and other devotees he often said: "What does one gain by worshipping God with
offerings? That is merely giving Him things that are His already." He had said this once to
Narendra.
The Master spoke to him.
MASTER: "I explained to Latu who the object of the devotee's worship is."
HAZRA: "The devotee really prays to his own Self."
MASTER: "What you say is a very lofty thought. The aim of spiritual discipline, of
chanting God's name and glories, is to realize just that. A man attains everything when he
discovers his true Self in himself. The object of sādhanāis to realize that. That also is the
purpose of assuming a human body. One needs the clay mould as long as the gold image
has not been cast; but when the image is made, the mould is thrown away. The body may
be given up after the realization of God.
"God is not only inside us; He is both inside and outside. The Divine Mother showed me in
the Kali temple that everything is Chinmaya, the Embodiment of Spirit; that it is She who
has become all this―the image, myself, the utensils of worship, the door-sill, the marble
floor. Everything is indeed Chinmaya.
"The aim of prayer, of spiritual discipline, of chanting the name and glories of God, is to
realize just that. For that alone a devotee loves God. These youngsters are on a lower level;
they haven't yet reached a high spiritual state. They are following the path of bhakti. Please
don't tell them such things as 'I am He'."
Like the mother bird brooding over her chicks, Sri Ramakrishna was alert to protect his
devotees."
R.Subramanaian's devotion to Sri Bhagavan is absolutely wonderful-irrespective of however Naive it may appear for the Intellect.I do not think it is selective in picking out moments of favours.Appreciation of certain Moments ,when Events that are beyond comprehension happen does not mean that Devotion is absent during the other periods.
This sort of Devotion is not 'Desire' Based.
In general,it is preferable not to say these things in public.
Namaskar.
Ravi Said:
"R.Subramanaian's devotion to Sri Bhagavan is absolutely wonderful-irrespective of however Naive it may appear for the Intellect."
This is very true. Intellect is again in the domain of ego and ego never likes surrender.
I think the day to day practice of surrender is very down-to-earth. How else can anyone practice surrender except to start showing the attitude in small events? For example, if in the morning the coffee has a little excess sugar, surrender practice should start with accepting that it is due to God's Will that the sugar is in excess. This might look naive to the intellect but then, how do you practice surrender unless we start with these small things? It is not possible to attain the level of a Draupadi or a Ganjendra unless it is backed up by hundreds of instances practice in small events.
Any views?
Regards Murali
Dear S.,
Your point of view is also one way of looking at things. Sri Bhagavan
is the embodiment of love, and He
cannot but love us, whether we are sincere to Him or otherwise. However, my love to Him has made me experience His Will within me, on many occasions, though not always with 'good' results. But I continue to keep up my love towards Him. I strongly believe that without Him, our prarabdha will torture us much more.
Sri Bhagavan Himself says in AAMM 35:
Chy enath thaLLil sei vinai chudum alaal uyi vahai ethu urai Arunachala!
If spurned by Thee, alas! What rests for me but the torment of my prarabdha? What hope is left for me? Oh, Arunachala!
****
Dear arvind,
These three sentences were told by
Sri Bhagavan on more than one occasion to the devotees. These, I think, are not from any poem. The sentence, "Irunthapadiye Iru" -
Be as You are, comes slightly in a modified form in Invocation to Sri Dakshinamurty, in TiruviLaiyadal Puranam written by Sage Paramjyoti.
The meaning of the verse is somewhat as under:
He sits under the banyan tree of stone. The four [Sanaka and others] come to him and they are experts in four Vedas and six upa-Vedas. But He [Sri Dakshinamurty] tells them in full and in silence, beyond Vedas and words, the real purport.
He is as He is [be as you are] - irunthathanai irunthapadi irunthu kaatti - and shows That as That by staying as That, without telling but telling [sollamal sonnavarai].
Let us, contemplate Him for ever without break and conquer the chain of births.
****
Dear Anon., (z)
Sri Bhagavan had no sankalpa [thought or determination] and consequently does not perform actions. Now, the question is, how
can I say, "He wills it this way for me, It is His will etc.,"
I think GVK Verse 1139 gives the answer. "If it is asked, 'We actually see the Jnani performing actions. How can actions be performed in the absence of the sense of doership?' you should be convinced that because his inner attachment [the ego] is dead, he has God himself residing in his Heart and performing those actions."
****
Hi Subramanian,
“These three sentences were told by Sri Bhagavan on more than one occasion to the devotees”
But how do you know that Bhagavan used to frequently say these sentences as you say? Surely you must have read the fact somewhere, or you spoke to somebody who was blessed to be in His august presence?
Best wishes
Devi Kalottaram - Jnana Vichara Patalam:
continues...
51. The day one is able to see oneself with his inner eye as not the body, all his desires vanish, and he experiences perfect peace.
52. He who is described in the scriptures as the unborn and Lord, I am He, the Atman [Self], who is forever without form or qualities. There is absolutely no doubt about it.
53. I am pure Awareness, immaculate, perfectly liberated and forever present everywhere. I am indeterminable. No one can grasp me or leave me. I am free from sorrow. I am always brhamamayam [of the nature of Brahman].
54. I am the Self which is Consciousness, absolute completeness, deathless and self established, and which is other than this insentient body, limited between the top of the head and the sole of the foot, and which, beginning with the antakharanas [the inner instruments such as mind and intellect] is bounded by the covering of the skin.
55. Thinking, "I am the Lord of all creation, moving or stationary, I remain as father, mother and father's father for the universe", aspirants for mukti contemplate with concentration and ardour only upon Me, who am that great turiya [the substratum of the waking, dream and sleep states].
56. I am the one who is worshipped through sacrifices and penances by all celestial beings beginning with Brahma, the Creator, the heavenly damsels who are themselves sought after, humans, yakshas, gandharvas, nagas and other groups of superhuman beings, and also by many others. Know that everyone worships only Me.
57. By many kinds of rare austerities and charities, everyone worships only Me. Know that this vast creation, moving and stationary, and all objects, are nothing but Me, the Infinite One.
58. I am not the gross body, nor am I the subtle body, I am also not the causal body. I am the kinsman of the universe. I am the One who is of the nature of transcendent knowledge. I am moreover the eternal One, the Lord, the taintless One, the One who is devoid of the states [of waking, dream and sleep], the One who is devoid of the universe.
59. The beginningless Consciousness is unborn, whole and, residing forever in its natural home of the Heart-Cave, is without form, world or impurity. It is beyond comparison and completely unattached. It cannot be comprehended by the mind nor can it be seen or felt by the senses.
60. Repeatedly see thus: "I am He, the eternal, omnipresent Reality which is Brahman". Meditating thus for a long time, whoever abides imperturbably will become the Supreme Brahman, thereby attaining immortality.
contd.,
Devi Kalottaram - Jnana Vichara Patalam: [Tr. T.K. Jayaraman]:
continues...
61. Having thus explained the nature of knowledge to enable everyone to attain liberation, which is always available, I shall now proceed to describe the ways of conduct to be adopted by seekers. Noble Lady, listen to them carefully.
62. O Queen among women! Know that bathing in holy waters, repeating holy names or words [mantras], performing daily homa [sacred offering in specially prepared fire], worship, other oblations in lustrous fire, or any other means [sadhana] to be followed after great study, are never required for him [the earnest aspirant seeking liberation].
63. Niyamas [strict rules of conduct such as what to eat, when to eat, how to eat, what to wear, where to sit and so on], worship of deities in sacred places, nama archanas [worship of deities by reciting sacred names], pitru karmas [obalations, etc., carried for the sake of forefathers to help them reach a high state], pilgrimage to holy places, which have come forth on earth, and observance of great vows, are all not for him [the earnest aspirant], if considered deeply.
64. He does not reap the fruit of actions, good or bad. Important dates and special observances zealously followed by the world are not for him. Give up all actions and all kinds of worldly codes of conduct.
65. Renounce completely all religious edicts and disciplines. Since all kinds of actions result in bondage, give up all action plans, mental conflicts, and attachment to one's caste duties.
66. Even if the aspirant acquires many kinds of supernatural powers and magical powers, such as visualizing what is buried underneath the earth, and can demonstrate them before the world, he should give up mental attachment to them.
67. All these [powers] are only bondages to the individual soul. Further they drag one to follow a low path. The supreme joy of liberation does not lie in any of them, but only in the Infinite Consciousness.
68. One must engage unfailingly in yoga [the practice of Self abidance] in all conditions, without allowing any special event to affect one adversely. If, due to doubts, delusion arises in the form of attraction to worship in holy places and temples, [on account of past practices and vasanas], reject it immediately.
69. Listen to me, Lady! Know that only the wise man who never does anything which leads to the destruction of any form of life, such as insects, worms, birds or plants, is a person who is seeking true knowledge.
70. He [the true aspirant] should not pull out tender roots [of fragrant plants, which is often done for worship]; he should not even pluck the leaves; he should not harm any living thing out of anger; he should not heartlessly pluck even flowers.
Dear arvind,
1. Regarding the three sentences, Nin Ishtam En Ishtam [in Tamizh it is said Nin Ittam En Ittam since 'sh'
is not there in Tamizh], is mentioned by Sri Bhagavan in Arunachala Padigam, Verse 2.
2. Irunthapadiye Iru - It is mentioned by Sri Bhagavan in March, 13, 1936 entry in Talks. Sri
Bhagavan has elaborated this with the TiruviLaiyadal Puranam verse on
Sri Dakshinamurty given in my previous comment.
3. GuruvaruL cheluthum vazhikke sel... I am trying to locate the reference. I think this has been mentioned by Muruganar somewhere.
Let me see it in detail.
****
Devi Kalottaram - Jnana Vichara Patalam: [Tr. T.K. Jayaraman]
71-72: He should worship Lord Siva using only flowers that have fallen naturally [from trees and plants]. He should not indulge in vile practices such as "marana" [Causing destruction through use of certain mantras], "uchadana" [driving one out with the force of mantras], "vidveshana" [causing mutual hatred between friends or wife/husband], the well known "Sthambana" [freezing one's capabilities], causing fever, putting into action evil spirits, causing agitation, wrongly taking control of others, attracting and infatuating others, and so on. Abandon the worship of stones, wooden objects and similar articles.
73. Having relinquished the great mudras which are adopted in order to fix the mind on the devatas [deities] residing in holy places and temples, and the associated sacrifices, get rid of the vasanas also which may have accumulated on account of such practices in the past, and cling only to the Self, the all-pervading real Consciousness.
74. Maintain a neutral attitude towards all things; do not get infatuated with anything; maintain equanimity whether in happiness or suffering; be the same to friends and enemies; treat alike a broken piece of mud pot and a piece of gold.
75. Know that a flawless yogi is one who does not ever allow himself to be swayed by desire for pleasures of the senses, who frees himself at heart from mamakara [treating things as 'mine'], who has a steadfast mind, who is free from desires and fear, and who always revels in the Self.
76. Being unaffected by either praise or slander, treating alike all creatures, he should always unfailingly maintain an equality of vision [sama drishti], considering all living beings in the world as himself.
77. Avoid unnecessary arguments and worldly associations. Do not create misunderstanding among others. Do not join religious bodies well versed in many scriptures [sastras]. Give up both the words of abuse and words of praise.
78. Gradually and completely get rid of jealousy, slander, pomp, passion, consequent hatred, desire, anger, fear and sorrow.
79. If a man is free from all pairs of opposites and always lives in solitude [established in himself alone], he gains perfect wisdom even while in the present body and shines forth with great effulgence.
80. Liberation is attained only by knowledge [jnana]. By other powers [siddhis] such a fruit is unattainable. However, aspirants become enchanted with blemishful worldly enjoyments and thaumaturgic powers [siddhis] and go after them with desire.
contd.,
Dear arvind,
The third sentence, "GuruvaruL chelutthum vazhikke sel " gave me
a lot work for about 2 hours. I went through Padamalai, GVK and Pillai's Anugraha Ahaval, Sri Ramana Dhyanam and Sri Ramana Ucchishtam. No chance. Then I looked into Guru Ramana Prasadam, Tamizh and then its English rendering by Robert Butler.
Here, in this work, in Verse 528, Muruganar says:
Why should I, dwelling upon the adverse conditions that arise in the world through this bodily existence, lose patience and become displeased with the Lord? "Let life proceed in the way the Lord dictates." With this attitude, I live with no anxieties in my heart.
****
Murali,
What I understand is your question requires the Greatest Wisdom to answer.Madhwa when asked what is the Greatest Wisdom he answered to know the difference between action and inaction.Yes where do we draw the line between Effort and God's will? Can I be Tamas and call it God's will or do I take responsibility and put effort?Where to draw the line is I guess a matter of experience, ability and circumstances.Hence Madhwa calls it the Greatest Wisdom.Two entire chapters are dedicated to this topic in Bhagawatgita.
That is why I said yesterday : Suit Yourself i.e suit yourself according to your experience, ability and circumstances.This is also the inner meaning of Robert Adams on why we cant crack the Game of Effort and God's will but just have to play along as we mature.Robert Adam says there is nothing we can do about it(All is his will or automatic) but we have to do something about it(effort).That is the Game. Don't try to crack it becuase you cant.
Regards,
-Z
Talk 201.
M.: The fact is, there ‘is’ Reality. It is not affected by any discussions. Let us abide as Reality and not engage in futile discussions as to its nature.
Talk 202.
M.: Hold it (I-thought), it will disappear as a phantom.
What remains over is the real ‘I’. That is the Self.
.
Devi Kalottaram - Jnana Vichara Patalam - [Tr. T.K. Jayaraman.]
continues....
81. Know that the pure flawless person will experience that blemishless Lord [the Supreme Brahman] and positively attain liberation, whether attended by the supernatural powers or not.
82. The body is a form constituted
of the five elements. The one all-
pervading Siva is also nicely seated there. Hence the entire universe, right from the indivisible, all pervading Sivam [the highest and most abstract tattva] to this world, is the form of Sankara.
83-84: My dearest, earnest seekers who see the enlightened one and worship him with all the three instruments [mind, speech and body] in unison, offering him, with heart-melting love, sweet smelling sandal paste, fruits, flowers, incense, good water to bathe in, clothes and food, will thus attain liberation. Know that those who worship that Jnani reap the fruit of his righteous deeds and those who slander him reap the result of his sins.
85. I have revealed the truth about knowledge and the condcut pertaining thereto, as you have askedf. This entire path is indeed Kalottara Jnana [the Knowledge that is to be revealed at the final stage of maturity]. Tell me, O Lady, if you want to ask anything more.
concluded.
Hi Subramanian,
Many thanks for the references. Well, sorry too, to have put you to so many hours of search. Don’t you think that if the sentences were actually repeated again and again by Sri Bhagavan as “Mahavakyas”, they would have appeared many times in the various compilations of anecdotes, much like “Summa Iru”, and would be easily found? They needed so much search by even someone as knowledgeable as you and that too to produce an obscure line from just one of the many verses of Guru Ramana Prasadam, or a line from one of the Hymns.
I regard every sentence uttered by Bhagavan to be a Mahavakya actually. But I do not get the sense that the 3 sentences identified by you, as such, were particularly repeated by Him again and again as Mahavakyas. From the literature, if there is any one phrase Bhagavan seems to have made His Mahavakya, it can only be “Summa Iru”.
[Also, re the “Talks”, 13th March 1936 entry. It does not mention “Irunthapadiye Iru” or Tiruvilaiyadal Puranam anywhere. If you are referring to Talk No.183 which has the line “Be what you are”, who knows now what was the exact Tamil phrase used by Bhagavan? There is not enough information given to infer that Bhagavan picked up the exact sentence from Tiruvilaiyadal Puranam. Or if you refer to Talk 185 which gives sacred literature as having the phrase “said without uttering” etc, it probably refers to “Maun-vyakhya” etc from the original Sri Dakshinamurty Stotram in Sanskrit, rather than from Tiruvilaiyadal Puranam.
Still, to qualify the foregoing, I am not sure what the Tamil “Talks” contains. Maybe it mentions further details which show that Bhagavan was indeed referring to Tiruvilaiyadal Puranam in Talks 183 & 185. But then, most of Talks was written in English to start with, and tho’ I am not absolutely certain, I believe the Tamil Talks is mostly a translation of the English version. And then again, whatever phrase appears in Tamil for “be what you are” would be a usage by the translator, rather than Bhagavan’s original and exact words].
Best wishes
My(Krishna) trip to Arunachala
This time my mother asked me to go to Thiruvanammalai on weekend. I readily told yes.
Though my mind already started getting annoyed of the strain full bus journey that is going to follow.
I started from Bangalore at 6 Am on June 18th and planned to return the same day to Bangalore in the night. Needless to say, it is going to be tedious.
I reached Thiruvannamalai around 10:45 AM, straight away headed to the arunachaleswarar temple and went straight to my Supreme Father, paid a bribe of extra Rs 20, sat inside the main sannidhi of my father.
I had darshan of Divine Mother also and came out.
An interesting person I met in way out from the temple.
I have seen this sadhu in ramanasramam two times before -- every time he used to come, sing a song from Thirupugazh, prostrate in samadhi and then will go away. He interested me, but I regretted both times I did not strike a conversation with him.
So this time when I saw him I was happy to have had got a chance to meet him again. I went ahead and greeted him. He greeted me in return. But in a few moments to follow, he proved to be a fake sadhu, probably out of poverty he assumed this role for himself.
He asked me to give new clothes, I gave him Rs 10/- and told him I dont have time to buy clothes for him. He looked at me angrily, because he felt Rs 10/- is very meager. I said to him with my eyes "your eyes cannot do anything to me". I started walking. He called me again, telling "give something". I gave this Rs 10/- away and added this sadhu to one more in my big list of bogus saints. He told sarcastically "happy journey". It did not scare me.
Then I went to my living Guru's house -- Mathru Sri Sarada buying some mango fruits. As it is not meditation time, I had only 10 minutes to sit before the house . I gave the fruits to the Israeli devotee Meera and had few words with her. I told her " i have so much lust and anger". She kidded me jokingly -- " then amma will never give you darshan"
She is a serious mumukshu -- day and night she is with the Living Gurus. So I had few words on my sadhana and she replied to pray to Arunachala. I wished her good day and returned back, yet one more time without seeing Saradamma. I never mind, to be ignored by Saradamma itself is a boon. In fact Saradaa never ignored me -- but only keeping the final moment of physical meet in a suspense.
Then I went to Ramansramam around 2 PM after having a sumptuous one time meal of the day in Auro restaurant.
I went to old meditation hall and sat there.
In my first few visits, Ramana few times gave a glimpse by a fits of laughter that lasted for 2 seconds, but afterwards Ramana never gave me any experience in subsequent visits.
continued....
Trip to Arunachala continued...
This time I was very tired bodily , so could not do self enquiry. I told Rmana " i am not able to do self enquiry, because I am very tired and I feel sleepy".
I slept in the old hall for some 25 minutes. When I woke up, Raman's photo was gently smiling me and tellling "it does not matter my child". I started getting the message of the day slowly . Raman was inclining towards "do nothing " advise. Few moments passed by, I got his message "chumaa iru".
Enough, I sat with eyes wide open, doing nothing, thinking nothing, worrying nothing, surrendering nothing, just looking around the people around me with no interes whastover.
Well, I was not in 100% "chummaa iru" state. But even 1% of that state was enough to give me peace.
I did not move for another 1.5 hours, sat there with no aim, with no remarkable thoughts capturing my attention.
So many desirs, so many fears of future, so many doubts passed by me. I did not react. I was "chumaa iru".
I did not bother to control the thoughts, I was just sitting there as "sivanenu".
At 4 PM, my mind started to come back, I slowly moved out of the hall. I know I cannot be in that "chumaa iru" state forever, but I wish I should be.
"chumaa iru" is not self enquiry, but it is Papaji's favourite. I was attracted to this "chumaa iru" only for past one month.
What to do ? I have to take turns -between surrender and self enquiry -- otherwise my mind will get choked with one method alone.
Back to Bangalore after a very very hectic 6 hours bus journey -- I took all the bus jounry experiences as some sensations, feeligns, vibrations recorded in my mind.
Happy searching,
Regards,
Krishna
Friends,
I have posted the writeup of Krishna as Requsted by him.
Namaskar.
Arvind
You are right about the paucity of Bhagavan's words recorded in Tamil. Talks in Tamil is a translation of the English text.
Viswanatha Swami, who translated and edited the Tamil book, was probably the right person to make the text sound as if Bhagavan was speaking, but the fact remains that it is a translation, not an original text.
In places it is actually more of a 'transcreation' since Viswanatha Swami occasionally changed some of the dialogues himself when he felt that they were not accurate records of what had taken place. I remember Sadhu Om taking him to task for this in the 70s, saying that he shouldn't arbitrarily change the text just because he felt it didn't sound like the Bhagavan he remembered. I think K. Natesan also raised some objections at the time, but they were overruled. Viswanatha Swami's response was that he was there for many of the conversations, and that he remembered them differently.
I remember talking with Kunju Swami in the 80s about what Tamil terms Bhagavan originally used in his conversations. I remember specifically asking about 'Self-realisation' since in English it may refer either to the state or the moment when the state is first known. He paused and then said he wasn't sure since there wasn't an exact Tamil equivalent. I have a feeling that the Tamil words that Bhagavan used in conversation have, in many cases, been irretrievably lost.
Some of the conversations in Talks were written down in Tamil by Munagala Venkataramaiah, but translated in English for the English edition. When the Tamil edition came out, rather than use the original Tamil from the manuscript, Viswanatha Swami just translated the published English translation back into Tamil. To be fair, I don't think he knew that parts of the original Talks manuscript still existed.
Dear Anon.,
Your experiences in Sri Ramanasramam, [as reported by Ravi]
is quite wonderful. Each one has got a different experience. And I would say, it is all for the good. We think sometimes of our evil tendencies, but Sri Bhagavan is there to set them right. Once Sri
Bhagavan quoted a Tamizh song: The washerman hits the clothes again and again on the rock. Is it for tearing it off? No. it is only to remove the dirt in it.
The statement of Sri Bhagavan holds true for all of us.
****
Amritanubhava - Ambrosial Experience:
Sant Jnaneswara:
Ajnana Kandanam - Disproving Ignorance:
20. If the fuel is not burnt in contact with the wild fire, then its power of burning is vain.
32. Were the firewood to drop its dry state, and assume the role of a fire, then that fuel would a once turn into fire.
33. As soon as the stream of water drops its separate existence on reaching Ganga, it becomes the very Ganga.
34. That which is otherwise ignorance does not remain ignorance, as soon as it comes in contact with the Omnipresent Atman and becomes one with it.
35. Since it is averse to Atman, it [ignorance] on its contact. Its separate existence can also not be proved.
37. The Atman exists only when there is no ignorance. No heed to be paid to an idle talk about ignorance.
43. Like a creeper growing straight from the sprout looks beautiful but it is not the seed but the outgrowth of the seed only.
63. Like the intellect assuming that the cream is in milk while in udder attempting to separate it.
64. In that way, how can the Atman
which is not even aware of itself will have anything else in it resembling ignorance?
*****
Dear Anon.,
Once a devotee said:
When I came to Tiruvannamlai for the third time, my egoistic feelings had increased and meditation became impossible. Should I ignore this
feeling? Or should I avoid such place itself?
Maharshi: This is mere imagination. No place or anything else is not outside you. All these imaginations only should be overcome. The places outside have nothing to do with your mind.
****
Spiritual Stories as told by Sri
Bhagavan:
Brahma's Pride:
A family came from a distant place to seek solace from the grief of losing six sons. The last child had recently died. As though Bhagavan had inspired the question, a devotee asked about using Pranayma and other practices to prolong life to enable them to become realized souls, Jnanis.
Bhagavan gently replied: "Yes, people do live long, if they do these practices, but does a person become a Jnani, a realized soul, by living long years? A realized soul has really no love for his body. For one who is the embodiment of bliss, the body itself is a disease. He will await the time to be rid of the body."
A devotee said, "Some people say we have lived for fifty years, what more is needed? As though living long were a great thing!"
"Yes", said Bhagavan with a laugh, 'that is so. It is a sort of pride and there is a story about it.'
It seems that in the olden days, Brahma once felt proud of the fact that he was long-lived. He went to Vishnu and said, "Do you see how great a person I am! I am the oldest living person [chiranjeevi]." Vishnu told him that was not so and that there were people who had lived much longer than he. When Brahma said that could not be, since he was the creator of all living beings. Vishnu took him with him to show him people older than him.
They went along until, at a certain place, they found Romasa Mahamuni. Vishnu asked him his age and how long he expected to live. "Oho!" said Romasa. 'You want to know my age? All right, listen then, and I will tell you. This yuga [aeon] consists of so many thousands of years. All these years put together make one day and one night for Brahma. It is according to these calculations that Brahma's life is limited to one hundred years. When one such Brahma dies, one of the hairs of my body falls out. Corresponding to such deaths, as already have occurred, several of my hairs have fallen out. But many more remain. When all my hairs fall out, my life will be over and I shall die.'
Very much surprised at that, they went to see Ashtavakra Maha Muni, an ascetic with eight distortions in his body. When they told him about all the above calculations, he said that when one such Romasa Mahamuni dies, one of his distortions would straighten, and when all the distortions had gone, he would die. On hearing this, Brahma was crestfallen. Similarly there are many stories.
If true realization is attained, who wants to keep this body? For a Realized Soul, who enjoys limitless bliss through realization of the Self, why this burden of the body?
****
salutations to all:
Subramanian:
the exchanges between you & arvind reminded me of the famous "Elementary, my dear Watson" (a phrase which is never actually uttered by holmes in any of the stories written by doyle!!) :-)))
a serious request to you (& others): when it comes to bhagavAn's words, to the extent we know them, please please please either give the original references or make it very very clear that what you are writing "in your own words" is from your memory and hence 'unreliable'.
i.e., kindly avoid things as 'once bhagavAn said this', or 'bhagavAn often used to say' etc. etc. to twist bhagavAn's words, despite the good intention of it, is yet more of a disservice :-(. i like the way ravi always makes it a point to quote the actual words of thAkur as given in the kathAmrta. why can't everybody do the same???
Dear S.,
First thing first.
The sentences - Irunthapadiye Iru;
Guruvarul chelutthum vazhikke chel:
was quoted by Brahmasri Nochur Venkataraman in his discourse on
ULLadu Narpadu. Since, you may all say that Nochur's statement might be 'secondary', I tried to find the original source. Only one out of the two is available in Talks Tamizh version. The other one is indirectly cited in Guru Ramana Prasadam. There should, I
believe a direct statement of Sri Bhagavan on both the sentences. If
Sri Bhagavan wills, I shall be able to find them and pass it on to you.
Second thing: I am always quoting the source, be it Sri Bhagavan's statement or from any spiritual books. So this blame cannot be on me.
*****
salutations to all:
Subramanian: sir, please don't mistake me. i may be curt anow & then but surely don't have any intention to offend anyone.
coming to what you said, let me give 2 instances from just today's comments:
(your comment on june 20, 4.22 pm)
[(i) Once Sri Bhagavan quoted a Tamizh song: The washerman hits the clothes again and again on the rock. Is it for tearing it off? No. it is only to remove the dirt in it.]
(your comment on june 20, 4.51 pm)
(ii) Once a devotee said: When I came to Tiruvannamlai for the third time....should I avoid such place itself?
Maharshi: This is mere imagination. No place or anything else is not outside you. All these imaginations only should be overcome. The places outside have nothing to do with your mind.]
don't remember you saying when & where did bhagavAn say the above? more simply, what's the source? if giving the 'sources' seem difficult, then simply don't quote bhagavAn. simple.
coming to nochur's comments, with all respects to him, it isn't that his comments, as you indicated, "might be secondary", it is indeed much less than secondary! :-) bhagavAn's compositions alone are 'primary', the narrations/ reminiscences by bhagavAn's devotees, i.e., those who lived with bhagavAn, are 'secondary'; the words of the rest, whoever they be, is either tertiary or less! :-)
Dear S.,
Yes. I agree. In the two comments
that I mentioned today, the first one [regarding washerman hitting the clothes on the rock] comes in Devaraja Mudaliar's Thaayum Neeye,
Thanthaiyum Neeye [Tamzih.]. The English version is My Recollections of Bhagavan Ramana. I am not sure whether the song about washerman is appearing in English version.
As regards the second one, it appears in Maharshi Voi Mozhi -
Maharshi's Gospel in English.
I shall invariably cite the references in future.
*****
Hi David,
Thanks for elaborating on the background to the Tamil “Talks”. And since hope springs eternal, perhaps a future edition of the “Talks” may be published by SRA incorporating the original Tamil words from Mungala Venkataramiah’s manuscript as it survives.
I wonder if anyone ever attempted to put together a collection of the exact Tamil phrases as were often spoken by Bhagavan, and as attested by the devotees from that time (too few now!) or as available in Literature (esp. the Archives). It could perhaps come with an enlightened English translation as well. That should be indeed a precious compilation if made.
Best wishes
....."The early 1930s Lakshmana Sarma used the knowledge he had gained from these lessons with Bhagavan to write a Tamil commentary on Ulladu Narpadu. This commentary was serialised in a Tamil magazine. Bhagavan cut them all out of the magazine and pasted them in a scrapbook that was kept near his sofa. If people approached him and asked him for the meaning of any particular verse, he would often hand over the scrapbook and ask them to read the relevant entry. Chinnaswami, the manager of Ramanasramam, refused to publish this work as an ashram book because he had had some other dispute with Lakshmana Sarma, so Lakshmana Sarma published it himself. Bhagavan was not happy with this arrangement. Usually, he never interfered with the administration of the ashram, but in this case he decided to make an exception. He went to the ashram office and told Chinnaswami, ‘Everyone is saying that this is the best book on Ulladu Narpadu. Why don’t you print it?"
glow
Subramnanian and S
The story about the washerman beating the cloth can be found in Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, talk no 447:
Sri Bhagavan said that a saint [Guhai] Namah Sivaya who was formerly living in Arunachala must have undergone considerable difficulties. For he has sung a song saying: ‘God proves the devotee by means of severe ordeals. A washerman beats the cloth on a slab, not to tear it, but only to remove the dirt.’
The original verse, composed by Guhai Namasivaya, says:
Heart of mine!
Is it to ruin us that the good Lord of Arunai
punishes us? No!
It is only to drive out our evil propensities.
Does the washerman beat the cloth on the stone [slab] to tear it?
No! It is only to remove the dirt on it.
This particular verse is also mentioned in Moments Remembered, p. 116 and on page 238 of Living by the Words of Bhagavan.
Dear David,
Thanks very much. I searched in
Devaraja Mudaliar's Recollections,
[both Tamizh and English], late last night and understood my blunder once again. It then occurred to me to see Tamizh Vachanamrutam [Talks] and I found it in entry of Jan. 25, 1938. But it appears as the entry of Jan.24, 1938 in Talks! Only meaning has been given and not Guhai Namasivaya's song.
This Venba is a wonderful piece of Guhai Namasivaya, and it occurs as Verse 21 of Arunagiri Maalai:
NallaruNai naathar namai oRutthal nenjame,
Kolluhaikko pollak kuNam pokkak -
kallin
Mazhukkuvan kooRaikku maaRupatto
vaNNan
Azhukkovangaikke avan.
The good Arunagiri Nathar punishing us, O mind, is it to kill us? No, only to remove our sinful character. Like the washerman hitting the cloth on the stone, only to remove the dirt [and not for tearing it off.]
Delightful piece of poetry!
Thanks once again, for correction.
****
Dear S.,
There is a verse of similar sentiments in Tiruvachakam, Tiru
Chadakam, Anandatitam, Verse 6. There the saint poet says: ...you have also made this treacherous lowly outcaste, stand at the gates of your temple and made me, be loved and owned by great devotees of you! Will any gardener cut off a mango tree [among many good trees] just because it is [yielding] poisonous [fruits]? O Lord, I am also like that.
VichathinRiye viLaivu seiguvaai,
ViNNum maNNgam muzhuthum yaavaium.....
****
Spiritual Stories as told by Ramana Maharshi: [Sri Ramanasramam, 2010 ed.]
DAKSHINAMURTI:
The Self alone, the Sole Reality,
Exists for ever.
If of yore the First of Teachers
Revealed it through unbroken silence
Say, who can reveal it in spoken words?
- Ekatma Panchakam
Sri Bhagavan once told the story that follows, to Muruganar. This brings out the profound significance of the Supreme Silence in which the First Master, Sri Dakshinamurti is established.
Sri Bhagavan said:
"When the four elderly Sanakadi rishis first beheld the sixteen year old Sri Dakshinamurti, sitting under the banyan tree, they were at once attracted by Him, and understood that He was the real Sadguru. They approached Him, did three pradakshinas around Him, prostrated before Him, sat at His Feet and began to ask shrewd and pertinent questions about the nature of reality and the means of attaining it. Because of the great compassion and fatherly love [vatsalya] which He felt for His aged disciples, the young Sri Dakshinamurti was overjoyed to see their earnestness, wisdom and maturity, and gave apt replies eto each of their questions. But as He answered each consecutive question, further doubts arose in their minds and they asked further questions. Thus they continued to question Sri Ddakshinamurti for a whole year, and He continued to clear their doubts through His compassionate answers. Finally, however, Sri Dakshinamurti understood that if He continued answering their questions, more doubts would arise in their minds and their ignorance [ajnana] would never end. Therefore suppressing even the feeling of compassion and fatherly love, which was welling up within Him, He merged Himself into the Supreme Silence. Because of their maturity, [which had ripened to perfection through their year long association with the Sadguru], as soon as Sri Dakshinamurti assumed Silence, they too automatically merged into Supreme Silence, the true state of the Self."
Wonderstruck on hearing Sri Bhagavan narrating the story in this manner, Sri Muruganar remarked that in no book was it mentioned that Sri Dakshinamurti ever spoke anything.
"But this is what actually happened," replied Sri Bhagavan curtly.
From the authoritative way, in which Sri Bhagavan replied and from the clear and descriptive way in which He told the story, Sri Muruganar understood that Sri Bhagavan was none other than Sri Dakshinamurti Himself!
****
Amritanubhava - AMBORSIAL EXPERIENCE:
Sant Jnaneswara - Samata Books, Chennai:
Ajnana Kandanam - Disproving Ignorance:
41. Now, let us do some research. What is the real nature of ignorance? Can it be inferred from its doings [by cause-effect relationship] or can it be directly comprehended?
42. Whatever we deduce as the established doctrine from the evidence such as apprehension by senses, etc., is all the accomplishment of the ignorance. It is no ignorance itself.
44. Whatever good or evil is alleged in a dream, it is not the sleep but the child of sleep.
51. The cause and effect being indistinct, the effect of ignorance will also be ignorance. Then who is there to deal with it?
54. So, when it [ignorance] has not allowed any proof to exist and there is no one to take its brief, from this discussion, realize that ignorance is false.
56. That which is incapable of producing any results, that which is no causation of anything and that which is shy of calling itself ignorance, how can it be recognized as true?
60. When the Atman cannot even suffer his own revelation by being called Atman, will ignorance entertain hopes to remain there!
80. With all this, my dear friend, have you come across any device to trace the path leading to ignorance?
81. It would be like illuminating a ceremonial hall, erected with the pillars of a hare's horns, with the rays of the moon on the
new moon day.
82. Or like enjoying the festivity in which the children of a barren lady are garlanded with sky flowers!
83. Or should the measure of sky cavity be filled with ghee of tortoise then only such fancies [about the existence of ignorance] would come true.
84. By all means we really tried to bring out ignorance. But it does not exist. How long we should go on saying this!
contd.,
Tiruchuzhial Padigam:
It is also necessary to refer to Sri Bhagavan's teaching regarding invocation of the name of the God. Sri Bhagavan is generally regarded as a strict Jnani, recommending the path of Jnana as the best and as that to which all, whatever, path they pursue, must eventually come...
Once talking about Namadev, Sri Bhagavan clearly said: "God and God's name are not different." I have often heard visitors asking anxiously whether they could continue practice of invoking the name of Lord Rama, Krishna, Siva, Muruga or some other divine name. And always Sri Bhagavan reassured them and said that they could.
I myself have developed the habit of uttering the name of Ramana, frequently when I sit down or stand up or lie down or when I start for anywhere, when I go to bed or get up in the morning and so on. One day, I was singing before Sri Bhagavan, Muruganar's Tiruchuzhial Padigam each of which ends, ..."unai nan maRakkinum nachollum undhan namame." [Even if I forget you, my tongue will keep on repeating your name], I stopped in the middle of my singing and told Sri Bhagavan: "Now, this is really true about me also. I also frequently utter Sri Bhagavan's name though my mind is not usually not fixed on Sri Bhagavan, when I do so. Now I have no doub that when I utter Sri Bhagavan's name with my mind on it or derive any benefit when I do so more or less automatically?" And I added, laughingly, "Personally I think I ought to. I may not be given many marks, but I should get one or two. Is it not so Bhagavan?"
Sri Bhagavan also laughed and replied: "Yes, yes, you will get marks for it."
I continue to say, 'Ramana, Ramana' and have full faith that as He told me, He will give me marks for doing so in the final examination which all of us have to enter.
Once I said to Sri Bhagavan: "What do I know about liberation and all that? Really, Bhagavan, I do not care for liberation or anything else. I only want to be happy."
Frivolous as it might seem, this really was my attitude at heart. Sri Bhagavan replied: You are only asking for liberation or mukti, though you are not using that word. The uninterrupted and unmixed happiness, which you want is possible only through salvation or mukti, that is through freedom from ajnana, ignorance."
[My Recollections of Bhagavan Sri Ramana. Devaraja Mudaliar. 1992 edition].
Veda nanmudi mel viLanguRu
vithahaunai meyathaal
EedhalaliNai eillathr inbam
yeithinen Ramanesane
PaithalaRRa manathavar thozhum
Pandi vaNchuzhiyal pathi
Nadhane unai naan maRakkinum
Naacholluum undhan naamame.
- Verse 1.
*****
Dear David,
Sri Ramana Sannidhi MuRai:
Guru Vachaka Kovai is quite popular among Ramana devotees and its name and fame have increased with your English rendering. But Sri Ramana Sannidhi MuRai, which is full of heart melting devotion is not that popular, excepting the fact that one song is sung musically after morning or evening puja in Samadhi Hall. You have, of course, given English rendering for two or more long verses like Ramana Puranam and Upadesa Thiruavahal, but Sri Ramana Sannidhi MuRai has not taken its prime position still amongst Muruganar's works. Tiruchuzhial Padigam is one such excellent decad, where every song is brimming with love. So also VaNNamuraithal and Desika Padigam. Perhaps some CDs might have come out for these songs. Still I personally feel Ramana devotees should popularize Sri Ramana Sannidhi MuRai, to a greater extent. I do not know why it is yet to be done.
****
Subramanian
There is a CD of Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai available in the ashram bookstore. I met Ravi a couple of days ago in the ashram and he had just bought a copy.
Dear David,
Thanks for the information. I had been at the Asramam on 15th to 17th June 2011, but it did not occur to me to check up for the CD on Sri
Ramana Sannidhi MuRai.
Ravi,
Talk 31.
D.: Is there a difference between prapatti (self-surrender) and the
Path of Yoga of the Seers?
M.: Jnana Marga and Bhakti Marga (prapatti) are one and the same.
Self-surrender leads to realisation just as enquiry does.
R.Subramanaian/Friends,
Yes,there is a Bonanza for Bhagavan's devotees-the first part of Sri Ramana Sannidhi muRai is issued as a mp3 Album ,consisting of 63 of the 124 Chapters.A Book of the songs with notations accompanies this album-all for literally a song(Rs 150/-).Similiarly Sadhu Om's compositions Vol 1,is available in mp3 Format with accompanying Book of songs with Notations for a mere Rs150/-.
Both are rendered wonderfully by the devoted Ramanajalai group.Additionally,Siva PrakAsam pillai's Ramana pAda pancharatnam(composed along the lines of Saint thyagaraja's pancharatnam)sund by the Ramananjali group is available for Rs 100/-
I also bought Thiruvannamalai thevara poonkoththu/ Thiruvarunai Thiruppugazh-a 2 CD Album by Ramanajalai Group,SOnagiri appane-a 2 CD album of the compositions of Guru and Guha NamasivAya,
and most wonderful Ramana sannidhi siRappu-a collection of Sri Muruganar's songs rendered in traditional OdhuvAr style by Sri Sadgurunatha Odhuvar.The Person at the counter was full of praise for this young man,sadgurunatha OdhuvAr and I could immediately relate to it since I have heard his wonderful rendering of tevArams.
For those of you in Bangalore,you may obtain it from Ramana Maharshi Centre For Learning.It should be available there,for it is produced and marketed by this centre.
The Ramananjali group lead by Srimathi sulocahana NatarAjan has been doing a wonderful job in bringing these works set to pleasing music to the common man.All this is being done in a selfless way and making it at a very affordable Price(Highly Subsidized).
Namaskar.
Peter,
Thanks very much.
Namaskar.
Ravi Visited Tiruvannamalai recently. Subramanian visited Tiruvannamalai last week.David lives there.I am planning to visit next week.
We have been "mentally" together since last few years due to this blog. I am sure that we open this blog atleast 3 times a day and this must be happening since last 3years.
Is it a good idea that we all plan and visit Ashram togther at a pre-planned date? That would be lovely to have a satsangh.
Regards Murali
Dear Ravi,
Thanks for many useful information about Sri Ramana Sanndihi MuRai CDs
and other albums. I have heard Sri
Ramana Pada Pancharatnam of Ramananjali Group, when it was sung live by sisters of Ramananjali Group in Tiruvannamalai itself as a maiden programme. Dr. Sarada and Smt. Ambika along with their mother Smt.
Sulochana Natarajan and other artists rendered this in Samadhi Hall, I think, one day after the Jayanti Day in 2010.
I shall procure the CDs soon.
Thanks once again.
Dear Murali,
It is a wonderful idea. We may plan it out. The present restricted accommodation of guest house rooms [due to Morvi Guest House repair and reconstruction] may be a challenge.
If Sri Bhagavan wills that way, it will happen. If we stay outside in hotels, we miss the Asramam food [Guru Ramana Prasadam] and normally I would like to have it without fail, whenever I visit Asramam.
salutations to all:
Murali:
you'd said: ["...Ravi Visited Tiruvannamalai recently. Subramanian visited Tiruvannamalai last week.David lives there.I am planning to visit next week. We have been "mentally" together since last few years due to this blog. Is it a good idea that we all plan and visit Ashram togther at a pre-planned date?..."]
is this 'invitation' for others too, or only for ravi & subramanian? :-))) ram (ramprax) visits tiruvaNNAmalai atleast 5 to 6 times a year though he doesn't write about his visits (he is a man of few words); aruNAchalA pulls me too at least twice a year (aruNAchala is blessed, isn't it? hahahahaha); arvind also generally makes it a point to come at least once every year etc... a satsangh with only AstikAs as ravi, subramanian, murali, ram etc. etc. may be a bit 'dry'; might be ok to have a nAstikA like me as well in your midst (would surely add some variety to your proposed meeting) :-)))
Spiritual Stories as told by
Ramana Maharshi: Sri Ramanasramam,
2010 ed.]
PEACE IS THE SOLE CRITERION:
When asked about the characteristics of a Jnani, Sri Bhagavan said: "They are described in books, such as the Bhagavad Gita, but we must bear in mind that the Jnani' state is one which transcends the mind. It cannot be described by the mind. Only Silence can correctly describe this state and its characteristics. Silence is more effective than speech. From Silence came the ego, from the ego came thought, and from thought came speech. So if speech is effective, how much more effective must be its original source!" Then, in this connection Sri Bhagavan related the following story.
Tattvaraya composed a bharani [a kind of composition in Tamizh] in honour of his Guru Swarupananda and convened an assembly of learned pandits to hear the work and assess its value. The pandits raised the objection that a bharani was only composed in honour of great heroes capable of killing a thousand elephants, and that it was not in order to compose such a work in honour of an ascetic. Thereupon, the author said, "Let us all go to my guru and we shall have this matter settled there." They went to the guru and, after all had taken their seats, the author told the guru the purpose of their coming there. The guru sat silent and all the others also remained in silence. The whole day passed, night came, and some more days and nights, and yet all sat there silently, no thought at al occurring to any of them and nobody asked why they had come there.
After three or four days like this, the guru moved his mind a bit, and thereupon the assembly regained their thought activity. They then declared, "Conquering a thousand elephants is nothing compared to the guru's power to conquer the rutting elephants of all our egos put together. So certainly he deserves the bharani in his honour!"
****
Dear S.,
All are welcome to Sri Ramanasramam.
Even atheists. Because what do we do there? We speak about our Guru. Even atheist has got someone who had told him there is no god. That "someone" is his guru. So even if God is not there for an atheist, he must definitely be having a guru. Like Ingersoll, Nietzhe, Karunanidhi etc., You can speak about such a guru of your own and share your experience with us.
Incidentally when Karunanidhi was in opposition, about 10 years back, he was arrested by Jayalalitha in his house late at night. When policemen came and pushed him to the ground floor, he cried "Muruga, Muruga, Kappathu, ennai kolla vanthirukkaanga... Save me. They have come to kill me." And the live video clipping was shown in some Tamizh TV channel. When there was distress, he called Muruga, Muruga. So, even the so called atheists have got some god or guru to cry about and call for his help in times of great distress.
Muruga, Muruga!
*****
Gita Saram:
Shantananda Shivapuri's comments on
Sri Bhagavan's 42 select verses, with interleaving quotations from Talks and other books:
X.20:
Ahamaatmaa Gudaakesa sarva bhootaasya sthitah |
Ahaadischa madhyam cha bhootanaamnata eva cha ||
O Arjuna, I am the Self indwelling in the hearts of all beings. I am thus the beginning, the middle, as also the end of all beings.
According to Sri Bhagavan Ramana, this verse is the most important in the entire Bhagavad Gita.
In a dream, I may see several people and all of them are not only my creations [creations of mind] but I constitute the material cause out of which all these people have been created [just as the mud is the material cause for a mudpot]. In other words, all the dream figures are my mental imaginations - mere thoughts.
It is I who appear as having been born as the various people in the dream. I only run their lives in the dream as the Self in all those bodies and I also appear as having died one day. In the same way, it is the one Absolute Consciousness which appears as several beings in the world of the waking state [the beginning], runs the lives as individuals [the middle] and appear as subject to death [the end] one day. In reality there is nothing but that One Consciousness which is the absolute truth. There is no world apart from that One Consciousness, the Self.
"The Pure Being is the Reality --
The others are mere associations. The Pure Being cannot be otherwise than Consciousness. Otherwise you cannot say that you exist. Therefore, Consciousness is the Reality. When that consciousness is associated with upadhis, you speak of Self consciousness, unconsciousness, sub consciousness, super consciousness, human consciousness, dog consciousness, tree consciousness and so on. The unfaltering common factor in all of them is Consciousness" - Talks No. 591.
Consciousness means to be aware that "I exist". This awareness of our existence is Consciousness.
*****
My Life at Sri Ramanasramam: Suri Nagasmma:
SERVICE BY MONKEYS:
It is natural for devotees to sing the praise of the Guru after receiving his Grace. The tendency to write poems, which had been dorman in me, began to awaken. In November of that year, at the time of Karitkai Deepam festival, I wrote five poems and placed them before Sri Bhagavan. Subsequently Gurram Subbaramayya sent a copy of Amukta Malyada to the Master. The covers of the born were torn and stitches were coming out. Sri Bhagavan had it bound properly and, after writing the title in His beautiful pearl like script, passed the book on to me with instructions to read it. At that time also, I wrote some poems on Sri Bhagavan. In 1943, I composed some songs describing Sri Bhagavan's life and Chandrammma, a Telugu devotee, sang them before Sri Bhagavan in her sweet voice.
After hearing them patiently, Sri Bhagavan said to those sitting near Him, "This is like the song, 'Vazhga, Vazhga, Vazhga, Ramana Padam Vazhgave" written by in Tamizh by Sivaprakasam Pillai." While going on the Hill that afternoon, it seems He said to His attendant, Rangaswami: "Look, people write saying that I am this avatar and that. Do you know what Nagamma has written? 'He is omnipresent, omnipotent Self. He is born to show us the path for realization of the Self.' Where is Vijayawada and where is Arunachalam? She came from there and has been staying here all alone and she has written like this. What can we say about it? The nature of people reveals itself according to their samskara. Her samskara is like that."
A few days later, I wrote four verses under the title Prarthana and placed them before Sri Bhagavan. Seeing them Sri Bhagavan began to laugh. Noticing this, Rajagopala Iyer asked Sri Bhagavan what exactly had been written. Then, with a smile, He said as follows:
"These are four verses written as a prayer. The second verse is amusing. It seems after I left the Hill and settled down here, I have no monkeys to serve me. So 'why not accept my mind which is a monkey for service? This monkey is for material things. Tie it down or chastise it; but see that it serves you." That is the idea. Sankara in Sivananda Lahari wrote a similar sloka. "Oh, Sankara, you are a bhikshu [a beggar]. Why don't you tie my mind known as a monkey to your stick and go about begging? You will get then alms in abundance."
******
Hi folks,
Let us try and visit too, sometimes, the real Sri Ramanasramam, the HEART, wherein we can always meet our beloved Bhagavan Ramana in person. That is where He still lovingly and anxiously awaits us, day in and day out. All are welcome here and there is never any shortage of accommodation. No bookings are required to be made in advance nor any travel arrangements. The food, I believe, is fabulous too, the Real Prasadam! And as the way is sometimes not very clear to us, He has even chalked out the Path in great detail for us. All we need to do is to try to walk it.
:-)
Best wishes
Friends,
S,Murali,Ravi,Subramanyam,Arivnd,hey jude, and ALL dont leave me out.Yes it will be nice to have a bonding session.I am based in London and come once a year.More Friends please join in.Hopefully we dont discuss any philosophy there.Just Be ourselves.
-Z
Arvind
It's a great place for darshan as well, as Bhagavan pointed out in the 'Bhagavan's Promises and Declarations' chapter of Padamalai:
36 If you would only fix your gaze upon me, you would know that, established in the Heart, my gaze is ever fixed upon you.
37 Looking at you from within the Self, I never leave you. How can this fact be known to your externalised vision?
Ramana Gita : Chapter Two :Verse Two:English Translation by Swaminathan
=====================
The name of the chapter itself is The Three Paths.
***
In the interior of the heart cave Bhrahman alone shines in the form of the Atman with direct immediacy as I,I.Enter into the Heart withquesting mind or by diving deep within or through control of breath, and abide in the Atman
***
I guess 'enter the heart by questing mind' is Self-enquiry.What is this second path : diving deep within??
In the same book Chapter one: verse-15, I have also come across one of the most standard questions that is put to jnanis.This was also put to Matru Sri Saradamma in the book No mind I am the Self.The question being :
How does a Sthithaprajna recognize himself as such?Is it by knowing the fullness of his enlightenment or is it by cessation of objective awareness?
Answer by Bhagawan: In the firm natural state through the supremem silence free from all vasanas, the jnani knows himself as such without any doubt.
The above answer seems to be slightly different given by Bhagawan in the Eight Stanzas to Arunachala:
***
2. ‘Who is the seer?’ When I sought within, I watched
the disappearance of the seer and what survived him. No
thought of ‘I saw’ arose; how then could the thought ‘I did
not see’ arise? Who has the power to convey this in word
when even Thou (appearing as Dakshinamurti) couldst do so
in ancient days by silence only? Only to convey by silence
Thy (transcendent) state Thou standest as a hill, shining from
heaven to earth.
***
Seems to me,an after analysis which relies on memory and logic.
Here is also the answer to the recent topic of Preparedness for Self-Enquiry.
***
Chapter Seven Verse 8:
Question by Karshini:
Who is considered fit by this enquiry?Can anyone by oneself know one's own fitness?
Ans:He whose mind has been purified by Upaasana and other means or by merit acquired in past lives, who perceives imperfections of the body and sense objects and feels utter distaste whenever his body has to function amond sense objects and who realises that the body is impermanent he is said to be fit for Self-enquiry.By these two signs i.e by a sense of the transitoriness of the body and by non-attachment to sense objects, one's own fitness for Self-enquiry can be known.
Regards,
-Z
Arvind adn Mr.David,
Unfortunately we need to travel there to get there, there is no such thing as appearing there.
Regards,
-Z
Dear arvind, Anon., and others,
I agree with you. But the point is
to reach the Heart and ever be in
His loving fold, we also need to show our love towards His Presence in Samadhi Hall or His Old Hall, where He conducted the court for more than 20 years. Stalwarts like Kavyakanta, Muruganar, Chadwick, Kunju Swami, S.S. Cohen, Osborne and others had bathed in His glory in that Hall or in Samadhi Hall.
Of course, there are people who came to Him even after His Maha Nirvana and found the Samadhi Hill to be a 'high voltage' area where His power is transmitted fast. David is a glorious example. There are many others also, who had not visited Him at all but understood the significance of the Heart and practiced self inquiry and successfully reached the goal which was also the way.
But all said and done, even for advanced practitioners of self inquiry, Samadhi Hall helps as a powerful catalyst. No one can deny that.
For people who stumble on their way, not knowing how to proceed further, it acts as a re-charger. That is why when people who had left bag and baggage Tiruvannamalai, came back after a year or two, because the Presence helped them to sustain their inquiry and attain the result.
*****
Dear arvind, Anon., and others,
In this context, I remember the story of Saint Tirunavukkarasar.
Sri Bhagavan has said that all the four main saints of Saivam [Tiru Navukkarasar, Tiru Jnana Sambandhar, Sundaramurty and Manikkavachagar] have realized the Self as is revealed from their very first song. Still they wanted to visit various places of Siva Temples.
Saint Tirunavukkarasar spent many many years with Jain monks in a monastery. He developed acute colic pain [as per Siva's will] and he came back rushing to her sister's place in Tiruvadigai. By this time, he must have been past 60. This old saint poet then visited Tiruvadigai Veerattanam as per his sister's wish who applied Vibhuti on his forehead and bade him to go. He sang a melodious decad and got cured from colic pain once for all.
Now he did not stop with Tiruvadigai. He went to many places either with Jnana Sambandhar or alone, places like Sirkazhi, Thingaloor, TirumaRaikkadu, Tirukandiur, Tirvaiyaru, Tiruvidai Maruthur, Thillai, and Tirukovalur and many such places and sang in praise of Siva.
Then this old guy developed a love to visit Kailas. Imagine, he is already self realized, and he has seen enough Siva temples, why Kailas? Still he proceeded. He would not walk beyond a distance. Then he walked on all fours. He had paining bruises and wounds and burns and became tiresome beyond words and not even one further step could he make. Siva appeared before him and then told him: "Go and take bath in a tank nearby. And see." He obeyed and then got drowned in a tank. Lo and behold, he found himself coming out from Tiruvaiyaru tank [my native village!], without any bodily wounds, bruises and burns and tiresomeness. And then an added bonus, he saw Kailas, with Siva, Parvati, Ganesa, Skanda and Nandi seated in front of him.
Madhar piRaik kaNNi yanai malaiyan magalodum paadip
Podhodu neer sumanthu enthip puuhvar avar pin puhuven
Yadhum suvadu padaamal Aiyaru adaihinrapothu
Kadhal madap pidiyodu kaLiRu varuvana kaNden
KaNden avan thiruppadam kandaRiyathana kaNden.
*
Yadhum suvadu padaamal - without any trace of illness.
*
So, arvind, even those who practice self inquiry and realized the Self in Heart, can visit Sri Bhagavan's Presence in Tiruvannamalai.
*****
salutations to all:
Z./Subramanian/Ravi/Murali & others:
on the preparedness for vichAra, i suppose those who do 'not' wish to try owing to whatever reason will attempt to do everything they can for obtaining a justification as to why they don't want to try vichAra! :-) obviously, such people would have been in good numbers during bhagavAn's time as well, who wouldn't have been content unless they got to hear from bhagavAn himself as to why they "can't" do 'vichAra'! if one refuses to listen what bhagavAn has to say and also considers oneself to be unfit for vichAra (not much different from treating onseself as unfit for living!), then even aruNAchalA might not be of any help! :-)
bhagavAn's canonical works, which weren't addressed to fulfill the needs of only a specific questioner & are applicable to everyone can safely be said to be 'nAn yAr', 'upadEsa undiyAr', 'uLLadu nArpadu' - does bhagavAn say in any of these texts that only some are fit for enquiry and the rest not? i doubt it very much!
as an example, let's take verse 17 of 'upadEsa undiyAr':
மனத்தி னுருவை மறவா துசாவ
மனமென வொன்றிலை யுந்தீபற
மார்க்கநே ரார்க்குமி துந்தீபற
[manatthin uruvai maRavAthu usAva
manam ena ondru ilai undIpaRa
mArga nEr Arkum undIpaRa]
{if one were to investigate/ enquire attentively the 'form' of one's mind (without losing focus), then one will come to know that there is no such thing as mind; this is the direct path for all}
further, in nAn yAr (quoting tmp mahAdEvan's translation for Q18 (the first half)):
Q:Of the devotees, who is the greatest?
A: He who gives himself up to the Self that is God is the most excellent devotee. Giving one’s self up to God means remaining constantly in the Self without giving room for the rise of any thoughts other than that of the Self.
as one may see, bhagavAn doesn't simply stop by saying 'give oneself' but goes on to say very clearly what 'giving oneself' really means; i.e.,bhagavAn's way of defining "surrender" is identical to that of "enquiry" :-))) it's indeed much easier to try 'vichAra' than all the (unnecessary) efforts one does (infact waste of time) to convince onself of one's ineligibility to do self-enquiry!! :-)))
thus it appears, self-surrender either happens by inexplicable 'grace' or through 'vichAra' (practise of kriya also shall transform one into a receptacle of grace) but 'imagining' oneself to have surrendered simply because one recites the tEvaram/ visits tiruvaNNAmalai is a fine way of deceiving oneself! (btw, i recite the tEvaram & i do visit tiruvaNNAmalai a few times every year but i will be royally fooling myself to equate these things to be even remotely close to 'saraNAgati') :-)))
Dear S.,
It may be a visit out of curiosity
first. It does not matter. This curiosity will become partial surrender and it will bloom as a total surrender in due course. NRK
had been with Sri Bhagavan in his early years. Later, after reading Western philosophy and also seeing many millions jumping into freedom movement, he developed an aversion to see Sri Bhagavan. Once he had to be there in T'malai during deepam days. The crowd was overwhelming. He told his friend
T.K. Sundaresa Iyer that it would be difficult to stay in any of the houses, since there were no good places to stay due to deepam crowd. Then TKS said; We shall go to Asramam at least for a more spacious accommodation. NRK said: I shall come, but don't expect me to do namaskaram to your Bhagavan.
TKS said: Our Bhagavan does not expect any such things. NRK said:
I shall not even prostrate before Him. TKS said: It does not matter. Our Bhagavan does not expect any namaskaram from you. NRK continued: I shall ask difficult and embarassing questions to your Bhagavan. TKS said: You can ask anything to Him.
As soon as they entered, they saw Sri Bhagavan seated on a wooden chair near Iluppai Tree [this 130 year old Iluppai tree is still there!}. Before TKS could do namaskaram to Bhagavan, NRK fell like a stick and did namaskaram to him.
He became somewhat shy. Recouping himself, he asked Bhagavan: What is your stithi? -state? Sri Bhagavan gazed at him for a few minutes and then asked: Let anything be my stithi. What is your stithi? NRK felt as if a bomb had exploded underneath.
What answer he can give. He could have said; I may attain moksha or heaven? Then Bhagavan would have asked him, What is moksha or heaven? He might have said: I may die and get a rebirth. Sri Bhagavan would have asked him back, What is death? What is rebirth? Who is dying, who is being born? He found no answer and kept still. The mind which had prepared a hundred questions got quelled and went back swiftly to its Source. He had the glimpse of the Self albeit temporarily.
He thus became an ardent devotee and later started reading Ribhu Gita in detail and had even made a summary of important verses from Ribhu Gita.
Pullarivu ethurai nallarivu ethurai pullidave arul Arunachala!
****
salutations to all:
Subramanian:
sorry to point out - in the story you narrated i don't think it was NRK (NR krishNamurti iyer) and TKS (TK sundaresa iyer) but nArayaNa iyer (sub-resitrar) who had reluctantly accompanied rAmakrishNa iyer (son of bhagavAn's childhood friend), isn't it? :-)
also sir, quite impartially, i don't understand this partial surrender, as it sounds as meaningless to me as partial jnAna or partial vichAra! oh, didn't bhagavAn say so? yes, of course, those who can't notice the hundreds of times he recommends vichAra do need some such assurance of 'partial surrender'! (little realising that this is as "easy" as giving up the 'power of attorney' that thAkur suggested girish to do!!!) :-) coming to this 'partial surrender', besides making one complacent, it also has in it a deleterious capacity to make one think/ feel of having 'achieved' something or 'progressed' forward :-( to be endowed with goodness is indeed admirable, but as far as realisation itself is concerned, one is either self-realised or not, period. the 'in between' is of little consequence... :-)
salutations to all:
Subramanian:
sorry to point out - in the story you narrated i don't think it was NRK (NR krishNamurti iyer) and TKS (TK sundarEsa iyer) but nArAyaNa iyer (sub-registrar) who had reluctantly accompanied rAmakrishNa iyer (son of bhagavAn's childhood friend), isn't it? :-)
also sir, quite impartially, i don't understand this partial surrender, as it sounds as meaningless to me as partial jnAna or partial vichAra! oh, didn't bhagavAn say so? yes, of course, those who can't notice the hundreds of times he recommends vichAra do need some such assurance of 'partial surrender'! (little realising that this is as "easy" as giving up the 'power of attorney' that thAkur suggested girIsh to do!!!) :-) coming to this 'partial surrender', besides making one complacent, it also has in it a deleterious capacity to make one think/ feel of having 'achieved' something or 'progressed' forward :-( to be endowed with goodness is indeed admirable, but as far as realisation itself is concerned, one is either self-realised or not, period, isn't it? the 'in between' is of little consequence...
Dear S.,
The story had happened only between
Sri Bhagavan, NRK and TKS as narrated by Prof. N.R. Krishnamurti Iyer in Fragrant Petals [Asramam edition 2005. Only thing is that this "encounter" had happened in June 1922 and not during Deepam festival. Perhaps it might be a full moon day.
As regards Partial surrender and Total surrender, the explanations have been given by Sri Bhagavan Himself in one of His conversations. [Talks No.244].
****
Subramanian,
It seems you have put up a bit of an imaginative and hybrid version of the story.
The first half wherein you mention about NRK being pro Western philosophy and having an aversion to Bhagavan and not finding accommodation in Tiruvannamalai during Deepam time, and thus agreeing to visit Sri Ramanasramam for more spacious lodgings etc, is completely wrong. That, as S. correctly points out, does indeed come from the story of R. Narayana Iyer who accompanied Ramakrishna Iyer, Bhagavan’s childhood friend.
Whereas the latter part of your story about Bhagavan asking – “You said state, what do you mean by state?” and the bomb exploding underneath, concerns Prof. NR Krishnamurti Iyer and TKS Iyer.
Had me confused too for a bit there ole chap!
Best wishes
Sorry, errata:
.... Ramakrishna Iyer, son of Bhagavan's childhood friend.
Greetings to you all. I wish you all the very best in your spiritual search, and the best happiness.
I was wondering : is it said, in Hinduism, that in the end, everybody will attain moksha ? That it is the destiny of everybody, whether right now or after ten thousands millions lifetimes, to get enlightenment ? That this is the destiny we are sure to get oneday ?
I think this is an important point to know, and I am not sure about it. I would be happy if everybody would get enlightenment. It would mean that everything is going to end well for everybody : that would be quite a good news.
Would you be kind enough to tell me how it really is in Hinduism ? Is there any passage in the Ramana literature that tells about this ?
Thank you,
That god may always be with you all,
Mana
Mana,
I do not know whether Bhagavan has said anything about everyone being destined for enlightenment.
According to Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, everyone is destined for Enlightenment-eventually. An excerpt from 'I AM THAT':
/*
Q: Then why are so few liberated people in the world?
M: In a forest only some of the trees are in full bloom at a given moment, yet every one will have its turn.
*/
Best wishes,
mana/m/Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
PASUPATI (smiling): "Well, things will go on as long as She keeps them going."
MASTER: "That is true. But one should think of God. It is not good to forget Him."
NANDA: "But how little we think of God!"
MASTER: "One thinks of God through His grace."
NANDA: "But how can we obtain God's grace? Has He really the power to bestow grace?"
Master's prayer
MASTER (smiling): "I see. You think as the intellectuals do: one reaps the results of one's
actions. Give up these ideas. The effect of karma wears away if one takes refuge in God. I
prayed to the Divine Mother with flowers in my hand: 'Here, Mother, take Thy sin; here,
take Thy virtue. I don't want either of these; give me only real bhakti. Here, Mother, take
Thy good; here, take Thy bad. I don't want any of Thy good or bad; give me only real
bhakti. Here, Mother, take Thy dharma; here, take Thy adharma. I don't want any of Thy
dharma or adharma; give me only real bhakti. Here, Mother, take Thy knowledge; here,
take Thy ignorance. I don't want any of Thy knowledge or ignorance; give me only real
bhakti. Here, Mother, take Thy purity; here, take Thy impurity. Give me only real bhakti.' "
NANDA "Can God violate law?"
MASTER: "What do you mean? He is the Lord of all. He can do everything. He who has
made the law can also change it.
Nature of worldly enjoyment
"But you may very well talk that way. Perhaps you want to enjoy the world, and that is why
you talk that way. There is a view that a man's inner spirit is not awakened unless he is
through with enjoyment. But what is there to enjoy? The pleasures of 'woman and gold'?
This moment they exist and the next moment they disappear. It is all momentary. And what
is there in 'woman and gold'? It is like the hog plum-all stone and skin. If one eats it, one
suffers from colic. Or like a sweetmeat. Once you swallow it, it is gone."
Is God partial?
Nanda remained silent a few minutes. Then he said: "Oh, yes. People no doubt talk that
way. But is God partial? If things happen through God's grace, then I must say God is
partial."
MASTER: "But God Himself has become everything-the universe and its living beings.
You will realize it when you have Perfect Knowledge. God Himself has become the
twenty-four cosmic principles: the mind, intellect, body, and so forth. Is there anyone but
Himself to whom He can show partiality?"
......
continued
mana/m/Friends,
The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued....
NANDA : "Why has He assumed all these different forms? Why are some wise and some
ignorant?"
MASTER: "It is His sweet will."
ATUL: "Kedar Babu puts it nicely. Once a man asked him, 'Why has God created the
world?' He replied, 'I was not present at the conference where God made the plans of His
creation.'"
MASTER: "Oh! It is His sweet will"
So saying, the Master sang:
O Mother, all is done after Thine own sweet will:
Thou art in truth self-willed, Redeemer of mankind!
Thou workest Thine own work; men only call it theirs.
Thou it is that holdest the elephant in the mire;
Thou, that helpest the lame man scale the loftiest hill.
On some Thou dost bestow the bliss of Brahmanhood;
Yet others Thou dost hurl into this world below.
Thou art the Moving Force, and I the mere machine;
The house am I, and Thou the Spirit dwelling there;
I am the chariot, and Thou the Charioteer:
I move alone as Thou, O Mother, movest me.
Liberation for all
He continued: "The Divine Mother is full of bliss. Creation, preservation, and destruction
are the waves of Her sportive pleasure. Innumerable are the living beings. Only one or two
among them obtain liberation. And that makes Her happy.
Out of a hundred thousand kites, at best but one or two break free;
And Thou dost laugh and clap Thy hands, O Mother, watching them!
Some are being entangled in the world and some are being liberated from it.
How many are the boats, O mind,
That float on the ocean of this world!
How many are those that sink!"
NANDA: "It may be Her sweet will; but it is death to us."
MASTER: "But who are you? It is the Divine Mother who has become all this. It is only as
long as you do not know Her that you say, 'I', 'I'.
"All will surely realize God. All will be liberated. It may be that some get their meal in the
morning, some at noon, and some in the evening: but none will go without food. All,
without any exception, will certainly know their real Self."
The Master's Prayer is immensely accessible to one and all-surrender (Partial or otherwise!)is not done,is not 'willed'.As devotion intensifies in a natural way,whatever needs to be done gets done.
Namaskar.
Friends,
An excerpt from that wonderful Chapter 'The Four Aids' in Sri Aurobindo's "The Synthesis of Yoga":
"The supreme Shastra of the integral Yoga is the eternal Veda secret in the heart of every thinking and living being. The lotus of the eternal knowledge and the eternal perfection is a bud closed and folded up within us. It opens swiftly or gradually, petal by petal, through successive realisations, once the mind of man begins to turn towards the Eternal, once his heart, no longer compressed and confined by attachment to finite appearances, becomes enamoured, in whatever degree, of the Infinite. All life, all thought, all energising of the faculties, all experiences passive or active, become thenceforward so many shocks which disintegrate the teguments of the soul and remove the obstacles to the inevitable efflorescence. He who chooses the Infinite has been chosen by the Infinite. He has received the divine touch without which there is no awakening, no opening of the spirit; but once it is received, attainment is sure, whether conquered swiftly in the course of one human life or pursued patiently through many stadia of the cycle of existence in the manifested universe.
Nothing can be taught to the mind which is not already concealed as potential knowledge in the unfolding soul of the creature. So also all perfection of which the outer man is capable, is only a realising of the eternal perfection of the Spirit within him. We know the Divine and become the Divine, because we are That already in our secret nature. All teaching is a revealing, all becoming is an unfolding. Self-attainment is the secret; self-knowledge and an increasing consciousness are the means and the process."
Namaskar.
Mana
In Arunachala Ashtakam, verse eight, Bhagavan wrote:
The raindrops showered down by the clouds, risen from the sea, cannot rest until they reach, despite all hindrance, once again their ocean home. The embodied soul from You [Arunachala] proceeding through various ways self-chosen, wanders aimless for a while but cannot rest till it joins You, the source. A bird may hover here and there and cannot in mid-heaven stay. It must come back the way it went to find at last on earth alone its resting place. Even so, the soul must turn to you O Aruna Hill, and merge again in You alone, Ocean of Bliss.
Translation by K Swaminathan.
This is Krishnamurti Iyer's account of his first meeting with Bhagavan, taken from The Power of th4 Presence, part one:
At that time I was very sympathetic towards people like Ganapati Muni who were working towards the political uplift of India. I also felt anger towards people like Bhagavan who were not lifting a finger for the country’s liberation. Before I met Bhagavan that year I had made it my business to pick a fight with anyone who neglected the practicalities of life in favour of mere discussions on the existence of God.
Because of this attitude I had told my companions that I would not prostrate before the Maharshi, but when I saw him a strange thing happened: the instant we reached his presence I fell flat on my face in the traditional mode of prostration. This spontaneous gesture embarrassed me a little since I knew that my companions were aware of my attitude.
In a belated attempt to regain my composure I gazed steadily at the Maharshi and tried to engage him in a philosophical discussion.
‘You are now sitting like this,’ I asked, ‘but what is your next state?’
I wanted to know what he thought about life after death. My idea was to elicit from him the reply that there is a soul that survives the dissolution of the body, that later gets unified with the oversoul or God. I wanted to have a verbal fight with him so that I could prove that this was not so. Minutes passed but no reply was forthcoming. There was absolute silence as two pairs of eyes were interlocked in a mutual, steady gaze.
A thought arose within me, ‘Is this man taking shelter in silence to avoid answering an inconvenient question?’
Just then Sri Bhagavan’s ringing voice exploded, ‘You said state. What do you mean by state?’
If a bombshell had exploded under my seat, it could not have been as shattering as this sudden counter question, most unexpectedly delivered. I felt I had to answer him.
I began to think: ‘Well, I did not ask him about the body that will be buried or burnt. There is something inside the body, the thinking apparatus, the so-called mind. It is about this that I asked. Now, if I say that the question is about the state of mind, he will naturally ask me to define mind, so I must have the answer ready for such a question.’
So, within myself, I raised the enquiry ‘What is mind?’ But no answer was forthcoming. My mind was paralysed, its thought power dead. I was like a helpless mute.
There was a fierce glow in Sri Bhagavan’s eyes that held my own eyes in a tight grip. Then a radiant smile of victory spread over his divine face. I lost awareness of both the body and the world as the insignificant ‘I’ was swallowed up in the pure Awareness-Being in which all names, forms, time, space and action are utterly lost. It was a state of utter silence without beginning or end, aglow with the self-effulgent ‘I am’. When I recovered consciousness of my body and its surroundings, with the inner glow still effulgent, there were no more questions to be asked or answered. Revelling in the joy of that thrilling defeat, I quickly prostrated and made a headlong flight.
Dear David and friends, "If you would only fix your gaze upon me, you would know that, established in the Heart, my gaze is ever fixed upon you"
This reminds me of the story of Ramana and Mudaliar Patti. The old lady came to the ashram to visit the Maharshi. Her eyesight was poor and she accidently stood on a leaf plate. Chinna Swami was annoyed and asked her 'Why she was coming if she couldn't even see Ramana? Without missing a beat she replied 'even though I cannot see him, he can see me!' Ramana was very pleased with Mudaliar Patti's reply.
SPIRITUAL STORES AS TOLD BY RAMANA
MAHARSHI:[Sri Ramanasramam, 2010 ed.]
A devotee asked, "Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables
[mantras] picked up casually?"
Sri Bhagavan replied, "No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras." To illustrate this, He told the following story:
A King visited his minister in his residence. There, he was told that the minister was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables [japa]. The king waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the japa was. The minister said that it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The king desired to be initiated by the minister but the minister confessed his inability to initiate him. Therefore the king learned from someone else, and meeting the minister later, he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right. The minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper for him to say it. When pressed for an explanation, the minister called to a page close by and ordered him to take hold of the king. The order was not obeyed. The order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The king flew into a rage and ordered the same man to hold the minister, and it was immediately done. The minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation required by the king. "How"? asked the king. The minister replied: "The order was the same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I ordered, the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate effect. Similarly with mantras."
****
Bhagavad Gits Saram: Sri Bhagavan's select 42 verses: Commentary by Shantananda Shivapuri Swami with interleaving of comments from Talks etc.,
BG. IV.37:
Yathaidhaamsi samiddhognir
bhasmasaat kuruterjuna |
Jnanagnih sarva karmaani
bhasmasaat kurute tathaa ||
The past latent tendencies incite desires in our mind. It results in action in order to fulfill the desire. The action may be good or bad as one may resort to crooked and immoral means in order to realize his desire. Good actions like charity result in punya or merit and in order to enjoy he results of merit one has to take birth again with all its attendant miseries and sufferings. Same is the case of papa or sin, resulting from bad deeds. Thus all actions
result in future births and consequent sufferings. The root case viz., desires are due to the 'I am the body' idea, ego. When once a person realizes the Self and dispels once for all his false identification with the body, it is called the absolute knowledge. Thus on attaining the Knowledge, all the actions are rendered sterile, so that they will be be unable to result in future births.
As per Sri Bhagavan Ramana, "Karma is posited as past karma etc., prarabdha, agami and sanchita. There must be kartrtva [doership]
and karta [doer] for it. Karma
cannot be for the body because it is insentient. It is only so long as the dehatma buddhi [I am the body idea] lasts. After transcending dehatma buddhi one becomes a Jnani - So a Jnani has no karma. That is his experience..."
The scriptures say that Jnana is the fire which burns away all the karma [sarvakarmani]. "Sarva" can be interpreted in two ways: 1. to include prarabdha and 2. to exclude it. In the first way, if a man with three wives dies, it is asked, 'can two of them be called widows and and the third not?' All are widows. So it is with prarabdha, agami and sanchita. When there is no karma - none of them can hold out any longer....
"From the Jnani's point of view, thee is only the Self which manifests in such variety. There is no body or karma apart from the Self, so that the actions do not affect him." [Talks. No. 383]
****
Suri Nagamma: My life at Sri Ramanasramam:
Na Karmana:
Whenever any puja or other religious function was performed in the Asramam, it is a practice, for the people concerned to bring a plate containing fruits, flowers camphor and incense to Sri Bhagavan and, aftering reciting the mantra "Na Karmana", seek His blessings. Sri Bhagavn would touch them and only then would rituals begin. Noticing this a devotee asked Sri Bhagavan,"I find that whenever puja and the like is to be done, people bring all required articles to Sri Bhagavan for His blessings and Sri Bhagavan blesses by touching them. Puja is a karma. Almost simultaneously the mantra "Na Karmana" is repeated whose meaning is that liberation is attaining not by doing karma or by raising a family or by wealth buy only by thyaga i.e. renunciation. Is it not self contradictory? Sri Bhagavan smiled and said, "Yes. Yes. If they understand the real meaning of what they repeat they would no do all this. How often is this mantra repeated here. Were people to find out the meaning and put it into practice, it would be good. But who will do it? Some rituals are performed for worshipping God. It is after all a good thing. There is nothing lost in my touching the puja articles and so I do it. That is all."
Another devotee requested Sri Bhagavan to tell Him the meaning of that mantra.
"All right", said the Master. "Sometime back, a devotee made a similar request and I showed him the commentary written by Vidyaranya. He said he could not understand it properly, and so I had to tell him the meaning. To avoid any such requests in future, I wrote the meaning in Tamizh. That was sometime in 1938. Later, the people here put in a frame and hung it in the dining hall. See it and you will get the meaning."
When one of the devotees brought that framed paper for people to read, I enquired whether it had been written in Telugu also.
"I do not know if anyone has written it in Telugu," said Sri Bhagavan.
"Has Sri Bhagavan written it?" I asked.
"No. Why should I worry about it? If you want to, you can see it and translate it into Telugu," He said.
As I felt it was no use pressing Him further, I translated the piece into Telugu myself.
*****
Dear arvind,
I thought further about the mix up of stories after you had pointed out.
There are three ways in which the stories of saints and avataras are learnt. One is direct srvanam of their teachings. The second is recorded account by those who have listened to their teachings. The third is giving accounts, discourses, upanyasas etc., based on these recorded accounts. The third become some what of pauranika types. The pauraanikas add a lot of rouge, Setwet and Old Spice to the stories for adornment.
One old example is about Ananathrama Diskhitar. This gentleman was a scholar and was doing kalakshpam - discourses on Ramayana. Once he was speaking in National College High school Grounds in Tiruchiarapalli in 1970s and my father had attended that. On that evening, actress Padmini had come to the centre to see A.Dikshitar and offer a purse with fruits and flowers. This old man suddenly beamed with smile and said - Those of you, who have not seen Sita need not worry. Sita would have been like Padmini only! What a shame to Sita and her divinity! My father got annoyed and came out of the discourse. What to do? Even Homer nods.
Like that, I mentioned NRK - TKS encounter with Sri Bhagavan as narrated by Nochur Venkataraman and NOT from the book. If my memory is correct, Nochur had described the same way as I had posted. This morning I again listened to that CD. May be a genuine mix up on his part and ditto from me. Kartikai Deepam, overcroweded T'malai, NRK's "scientific temper" to the point of arrogance etc., etc., When
you first questioned it, then only I referred to the book Fragrant Petals and found that rouge, Old Spice and Setwet were not there. But the basic story is correct. May be somewhat a similar incident must have been there with Narayna Iyer also.
The moral is: Always refer to the true recorded statements about saints and avatars. The secondary and tertiary sources add colors to them. For that matter even Kamba Ramayanam of Kambar [Tamizh saint poet] is quite different from original Valmiki - the prime source book.
David also mentioned that even Talks and Tamizh Bhagavad Vachanamrutam have inter se differences in some places.
*****
Dear arvind,
I shall give the story of R. Narayana Iyer [of Chetput] as appearing in Fragrant Petals, 2005 edition.
It was in the year 1928 or may be 1929, I was employed at Chetput, a township 30 miles from Tiruvannamalai. My only friend and constant companion there was Dr. V. Ramakrishna Iyer, a versatile man of many parts, rather religious but not of the orthodox type, very genial and entertaining, one who I now deem a Purushottama - best of men, a friend, philosopher and guide as he subsequently proved to be. I was just the opposite in my make-up, an out and out sceptic with not religion in me, scoffing in my references to sadhus, sannyasis and swamis, whom I considered impostors and parasites on the society, who exploited credulous folk for personal ends, and accepted homage and hero worship as though they were superior to ordinary men.
Dr. Ramakrishna Iyer is the son of late Lakshmi Ammal, a friend and playmate of Sri Bhagavan in his boyhood days at Tiruchuzhi, to which place, she also belonged. He was therefore well acquainted with Bhagavan and was an occasional visitor to Sri Ramanasramam. He once invited me to go to Tiruvannamalai with him during the festival of Kartigai Deepam. Although I disliked the crowds and insanitary condition of the town, and although the pomp and pageantry of the temple festival had no attraction for me, I agreed, not wishing to hurt his feelings, but requested to be left with my parents who had gone for the festival and were staying in the town, while he went on to the Asramam, in search of his favourite pursuits. He agreed and took me to the place where they were staying, but on seeing the number of families huddled in a small house, I told my friend, "Doctor, I cannot stay here. There is not even breathing space. Your asramam will have plenty of open air and sunshine and the shade of trees. I would rather go there and stay outside, while you go in and have your way." He said, "Yes" and took me to the Asramam a mile or so from the town. On the way, I repeated my opinion of the so called holy men and said to him: "I will not come in or join in any of your 'tomfoolery'. If by chance I meet your 'Swami' I will not prostrate before Him. I mean no insult, but I cannot do what is against my convictions. I don't believe that any man, however great, has the right to accept the homage of others, just because, he has learned to memorize and quote scriptures or sacred lore."
contd.,
R. Narayana Iyer and Dr. V. Ramakrishna Iyer; contd.,
With this warning to my friend, we came to the Asramam. It was then comprised of just three thatched sheds, a little away from the road, which one reached by a narrow foot path through thorn bushes.
We walked in. A man in a white loin cloth, a towel on His shoulder, a kamandalu in one hand and a walking stick in another, stopped in His walk, in the opposite direction, on seeing us. The doctor hastened his steps and I slowly followed. The doctor was greeted very kindly and was asked about the welfare of his mother and brother. It must be the Maharshi, I thought, but I didn't look up as He was a complete stranger to me. Then I heard my friend saying, "This is the Sub Registrar of Chetput." Out of courtesy I looked at Him. What a a wonderful face and what a welcoming smile! Bewitching, fascinating and a powerful look too!
In a moment I was at His feet on the gravel ground! I soon regained
my self possession and felt ashamed. "I should not have been so hasty in expressing my views to the doctor," I thought. Two persons whom I had seen before had impressed me with their powerful personality - Mahatma Gandhi and Rabindranath Tagore. "This person surpasses them both," I said to myself, "he is not bogus, He looks genuine. Yet I must find out from Him how He is entitled to the homage of others and how He accepts it. Has He solved the mystery of life, the universe that we see around us? If not I withdraw my homage and go my way."
With a pleasing smile, He said: "You have a couple of days' leave is it not so? You can stay in the Asramam. I will be there in a few minutes. I dared not say antying. I was dazed. I soon recovered and tried to find out if He had written any book. I got a copy of Reality in Forty Verses in Tamizh, just published. I tried to read the first stanza. I could not follow it. The word 'ulladu' seemed too closely packed and somehow jumbled together. "What", I thought, "can He not say what He has to say in intelligible language?" Someone nearby said that it had been arranged that the Maharshi Himself would explain to us the Forty Verses that night. I prevailed upon my friend to prolong our visit. This time, it was his turn to be amazed.
contd.,
Dear arvind,
R. Narayana Iyer and Dr. V. Ramakrishna Iyer - continues...
In anxious and eager suspense, I waited for the night. The Maharshi sat on a raised pial or dais inside a shed containing His Mother's Samadhi. Apparently, He used to remain there most of the time. Night came. About half a dozen of us were seated on the ground before Him. A solemn stillness pervaded the air. There was absolute silence, except for the occasional chirping of a bird or the hooting of an owl. The Maharshi read the first stanza. The mere reading of the stanza made the meaning as clear as clarity itself! Stanza by stanza He read and explained in a voice so sweet and melodious that seemed to come from a transcendent 'somewhere'. The climax came. Explaining the verse, He said, "God cannot be seen with our eyes or known by our sense perceptions. This is what is meant by saying:
To See God is To Be God."
One man from the small audience, a stalwart person with a severe expression, named Dandapani Swami, interposed: "Is Bhagavan saying this out of personal experience?"
The question asked bluntly with such naivete, was answered with equal candour. "Else would I dare to say so?" The Maharshi replied. Enough. It set me thinking furiously. It flashed upon me in a moment. "To see God is to become God. God cannot be known by our sense faculties. The only way is to be God. If He whom all religions acclaim to be God were to appear, before me, in flesh and blood, here He is." My body thrilled from somewhere deep down in me. Again and again, thrill after thrill set me quivering and shook my frame. I went out to compose myself.
I came, He saw, He conquered.
closed.
{The idea for writing this is only to make the members who have been seeing the back and forth comments on this, to know the full story by themselves. David of course has
given a brief write up on NRK-TKS story, between two of which there was some mix up by me.
*****
Hi Subramanian,
“The moral is: Always refer to the true recorded statements about saints and avatars. The secondary and tertiary sources add colors to them.”
How true! And I think this particularly applies in the context of our Bhagavan. We all know that He Himself set a very high standard of accuracy and precision in every bit of text that He copied or worked upon. Even when it came to the spoken word He would endlessly keep correcting devotees, telling them the proper pronunciation etc. I feel that it therefore becomes beholden on us, His devotees, to at least try and follow His example.
I guess “Brahmrshi” Nochur Venkataraman needs to brush up on some basics first, that’s twice he has been found kinda fast and loose with the recorded literature concerning Bhagavan. :-)
Appreciate your posting the Narayana Iyer & Ramakrishna Iyer story from “Fragrant Petals”.
Best wishes
Ravi,
You quote Thakur:
***
There is a view that a man's inner spirit is not awakened unless he is
through with enjoyment.
***
The entire two posts are very good and deal with alomost all the final questions i.e all questions, all deliberations and all philosophy boil down to the few questions in those two posts.
But the above quote negates all the other statements in those two posts said by the Paramahamsa.The above statement means everything is predestined/automatic.Then whence is Mother Kaali, her Grace and her will??
This is what Robert Adams means by 'It wouldn't be Truth Teaching if it were not paradoxical'. Following is the extract from his book which I already quoted in the past:
[Extract starts...]
---------------------------------
Q)You just have n't suffered enough. Is that true? People really
think...
A)Because they read the books of certain saints, and they
think certain saints have gone through certain experiences, so
everybody has to go through those experiences. That's why I
don't talk about myself too much. The truth is, of course, if
you really want to know about this body and about the Self in
me, know your Self. Find out first who you are. Then you'll
know all about me. Otherwise, you'll see me as you see
yourself. Do you see what I'm saying?
If you meet a con-man, the con-man's going to look at you
and think you're a con-man too. A con-man believes every
body's a con-man. If you meet a person who's filled with love,
they will see you as love also. So that's why I say, whatever you
are, I am a mirror for you, and you're only seeing yourself.
Q)That's so for everything, though. Not just for you.
A)For everything, of course.
Q)So what you're saying is, you create your own reality.
A)Where you are right now, the world that you're seeing is the
world that you're creating.
Q)But how does that tie in with everything being predestined?
A)Everything is predestined.
Q)So you're predestined to create your reality as it is.
A)That's the way it goes.
Q)That seems paradoxical.
A)Of course it does. It wouldn't be a truth teaching if it weren't paradoxical.Everything is pre-ordained if you go to work on yourself to lift yourself up and become free.
Q)There's nothing you can do about it, and yet you have to try
to do something about it.
A)Exactly.
Q)Why is that?
A)That's the game. And if you try to figure it out, you can't. So
don't try.
Q)And that means that when one becomes realized, everything
that's preordained doesn't exist anymore, right?
A)Right. When one becomes realized, the whole game is over.
There's nobody to become realized. There's nobody that's not
realized. There's no universe, there's no God. There are no
others. All is well.
Or, nothing is well, as the case may be.
Touche.
[Extract ends]
-----------------------------
Dear Anon, Re your reply to Ravi.
You quote Robert Adams: A con man sees a con man in others etc.
This is an over simplification as I think a con man sees others as a pontential victim, seeking and looking for a weakness in another person so he can fleece and exploit them.
Z,
How can a statement from one teacher negate the teachings of another? Also, you posted 'There is a view that a man's inner spirit is not awakened unless he is through with enjoyment'. Whose view is this, btw? Is it osho's view?
Sometimes, we cherry-pick a particular teaching that corresponds with our own views. We have to guard against this 'confirmation bias', imho.
This extract is taken from the collected works of Robert Adams:
/*Once Bhagwan told a devotee to wake up, look at the mirror, it shows the growth to be got
rid of. Instead of waiting time, start shaving. Similarly, heaven knows when the allotted time
would end. Hence not to seek the truth by vigilant self-inquiry is truly suicidal. Many would like
to blame their circumstances for their indolence and laziness and failure to pursue self-inquiry.
Ramana would ask, ‘Why depend on that which is not in your hands. Go ahead with the business
which is in your hands, under your control, leaving aside what you cannot do anything about.’
*/
Murali posted this statement in a post called 'God the scriptwriter'. I find this helpful.
'I think this "as if" is what seems to be the way out. In all the efforts we put, the transformations we try to bring about, we should put effort "as if" everything is in our control but inwardly knowing that whatever we are going to do, think, etc., are pre-scripted. This means not allowing this "pre-scripted" concept change any of our efforts and the efforts/thoughts go "as if" we do not know anything about "pre-scripting" concept'.
Best wishes
Anonymous,
"But the above quote negates all the other statements in those two posts said by the Paramahamsa.The above statement means everything is predestined/automatic.Then whence is Mother Kaali, her Grace and her will??"
There is no contradiction here-Thakur is speaking about the generally accepted view:
There is a view that a man's inner spirit is not awakened unless he is
through with enjoyment. But what is there to enjoy?"
It is not as if he is making a statement but questioning it.If we examine ourselves,We may be latching on to the 'Statement' for exactly the same Reason as what The Master told Nanda:
"Perhaps you want to enjoy the world, and that is why
you talk that way.".
The conversation continues in a very instructive fashion ,subsequently.I will post it seperately,as I do not want our deliberations to clour it in any way.
Namaskar.
Anonymous/friends,
The continuation of the conversation in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
NANDA: "It may be Her sweet will; but it is death to us."
MASTER: "But who are you? It is the Divine Mother who has become all this. It is only as
long as you do not know Her that you say, 'I', 'I'.
"All will surely realize God. All will be liberated. It may be that some get their meal in the
morning, some at noon, and some in the evening: but none will go without food. All,
without any exception, will certainly know their real Self."
PASUPATI: "True, sir. It seems that it is God alone who has become everything."
Nature of "I"
MASTER: "Try to find out what this 'I' is. Is this 'I' the bones or flesh or blood or
intestines? Seeking the 'I', you discover 'Thou'. In other words, nothing exists inside you but
the power of God. There is no 'I', but only 'He'. (To Pasupati) You have so much wealth,
but you have no egotism. It is not possible to rid oneself altogether of the ego; so, as long as
it is there, let the rascal remain as the servant of God. (All laugh.) The ego that makes a
man feel he is a devotee of God or a son of God or a servant of God is good. But the ego
that makes a man attached to 'woman and gold' is the 'unripe ego'. That ego is to be
renounced."
The head of the household and the others were very much pleased to hear this interpretation
of the ego.
MASTER (to Pasupati): "There are two signs of knowledge: first, absence of pride, and
second, a peaceful nature. You have both. Therefore you must have received the grace of
God.
"Too much wealth makes one forget God. That is the very nature of wealth. Jadu Mallick
has become very rich. Nowadays he doesn't talk of God. Formerly he used to enjoy
spiritual talk a great deal.
"'Woman and gold' is a kind of wine. If a man drinks too much wine, he does not show his
father and uncle the respect that is due to them. Very often he abuses them. A drunkard
cannot distinguish between his superior and his inferior."
NANDA: "That is true, sir."
Continued....
Anonymous/Friends,
The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...
"PASUPATI: "Sir, what do you think of Theosophy and Spiritualism? Are these true? What
do you think of the solar plane, the lunar plane, the stellar plane?"
MASTER: "My dear sir, I don't know about these things. Why bother about them so much?
You have come to the orchard to eat mangoes. Enjoy them. What is the use of your
calculating how many mango-trees there are, how many millions of branches, how many
billions of leaves? I have come to the orchard to eat mangoes. Let me enjoy them.
"Once a man's inner spirit is awakened, once he succeeds in knowing God, he doesn't feel
the desire even to know about all this rubbish. How incoherently a delirious patient talks: 'I
shall eat five seers of rice! I shall drink a whole tank of water!' 'Will you?' says the
physician. 'All right! You will have them.' Saying this, the physician goes on with his
smoke. But he pays attention to what the patient says when the patient is no longer
delirious."
PASUPATI: "Will our delirium last for ever?"
MASTER: "Why should you think so? Fix your mind on God, and spiritual consciousness
will be awakened in you."
PASUPATI (smiling): "Our union with God is only momentary. It doesn't last any longer
than a pipeful of tobacco." (All Laugh.)
MASTER: "What if that is so? Union with God even for one moment surely gives a man
liberation.
"Ahalya said to Rama, 'O Rama, it doesn't matter if I am born as a pig or any other being;
only bless me that my mind may dwell on Thy Lotus Feet and be filled with real devotion
to Thee.'
"Narada said to Rama: 'O Rama, I want from Thee no other favour. Please give me real
love for Thee; and please bless me, that I may not come under the spell of Thy worldbewitching
maya.'
"When a man sincerely prays to God, he is able to fix his mind on God and develop real
love for His Lotus Feet.
"Give up all such notions as: 'Shall we be cured of our delirium?', 'What will happen to us?',
'We are sinners!' (To Nanda) One must have this kind of faith: 'What? Once I have uttered
the name of Rama, can I be a sinner any more?' "
These are excerpted from Chapter 43
VISIT TO NANDA BOSE’S HOUSE
Tuesday, July 28, 1885.Nandalal Bose was a famous painter.Narayan and certain other devotees had remarked to the Master that Nanda Bose, an
aristocrat of Baghbazar, had many pictures of gods and goddesses in his house. Hence Sri
Ramakrishna paid a visit to Nanda's house in the afternoon.
Namaskar.
Reading “Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi”, I notice the theme of “sleep” is repeatedly used in order to point at “something” that practitioner, and no doubt most people, generally overlook.
Searching the term “sleep”, it is mentioned 748 times throughout the “Talks”.
Two extracts:
Talk 13.
………the consciousness when asleep is the same as that when awake. If you know what this waking consciousness is, you will know the consciousness which witnesses all the three states. Such consciousness could be found by seeking the consciousness as it was in sleep.
Talk 131.
What remains all through deep sleep and waking is the same. But in waking there is unhappiness and the effort to remove it. Asked who wakes up from sleep you say ‘I’. Now you are told to hold fast to this ‘I’. If it is done the eternal Being will reveal Itself.
In the first instance, I have found Maharshi’s exposition using deep sleep and waking, to provide a terrific conceptual model for understanding the relationship between, 1] waking from deep sleep, 2] the arising ‘I-thought’, and 3] the underlying Consciousness continuing throughout the 3 states (deep sleep, dream, wakefulness).
Secondly, and more importantly, the exposition is a “place” of contemplation.
For example:
Noticing the residue of peace, the undercurrent, which can filter into the waking state from the sleep state. And the contrasting heaviness of ‘I’, which is as if “added” within a second or two, on waking. Is what is “added” me?
Others could no doubt articulate much better what I am trying to describe, sorry, I don’t have the brain power.
Regards
Dear Peter,
Investigating "the state of deep sleep", as to what happens to one's
mind/ego during that state, has always been the characteristic teachings of non-dualists. It is only through deep sleep state, a person can find out what are the horrors the mind and ego, that are done while keeping awake. Gaudapada Karika [and also the Maandukya Upanishad] have been investigating the three states very thoroughly to understand the nature of mind/ego and to transcend it to attain the egoless state of the Self. Sri Bhagavan has also repeatedly talked about this to highlight, 'Where is your sorrow during sleep? Where is your happiness during sleep? Where is your pain during your sleep? Where is your pleasure during sleep?'
When there is no 'I' there is Sukam, which is not happiness but which is bliss. In fact, Who am I? of Sri Bhagavan starts with this statement about deep sleep.
*****
Dear Peter,
In fact, as you may be aware, even
the psychiatry which started in Germany and England started investigating only the 'dream state' to find out the causes of a man's mental depression, anxiety, dissociative behavior etc., If they do not succeed what do they do? They give sleeping tablets and make the patient sleep, where the mind does not wag its tail. But they do not investigate the state of deep sleep and be done with making a man go into sleep.
Advaita goes beyond this and found out that once a man realizes the Self, he reaches a state beyond deep sleep, called turiya.
*****
Cherished Memories - T.R. Kanakammal: Sri Ramanasramam, 2010 ed.
*
Sri Bhagavan often went on giripradakshina with His devotees. On one such occasion, Tiruchuzhi Lakshmi Ammal was in the group. In Tiruchuzhi, Sri Bhagavan's house was close to Lakshmi Ammal's house, and the children of the two families had grown up together, as close friends. Even in later years, after Sri Bhagavan had settled at Sri Ramanasramam, Lakshmi Ammal happened to visit the Asramam. Sri Bhagavan continued to treat her with affection and informality of an old friend. Lakshmi Ammal felt overjoyed every time Sri Bhagavan called her by name, and addressed some remark to her.
On this particular day, Sri Bhagavan and His party had reached the Sona Tirtham, and decided to rest there for some time. As the rest of the party settled down, Lakshmi Ammal, having spotted a flowering tree nearby, started plucking flowers. After resting for a short while, Sri Bhagavan and others resumed the giripradakshina. When Sri Bhagavan saw Lakshmi Ammal plucking the flowers, He approached her and asked, "What are you doing, Lakhsmi?" Lakshmi Ammal replied, "I am just plucking flowers for puja, Bhagavan." She had spread a towel on the ground and collected the flowers in it. Pointing to the towel, Sri Bhagavan said, "You already have much flowers. Why pluck more?" To this, Lakshmi Ammal artlessly replied, "There are so many flowers on this tree! I thought it would be better to gather them for the puja, rather than let them all go waste!"
Sri Bhagavan said, "So, I suppose you cannot perform puja without a large number of flowers. You have already seen and enjoyed the sight of the tree laden with beautiful flowers. Now you do not care whether anybody else gets a chance to enjoy the same heart-warming sight. Or may be you have some exclusive rights over this tree. Did you plant it and nurture it yourself, thus making it your own personal property?"
Lakshmi Ammal was stunned by Sri Bhagavan's words. She was full of remorse on her mind that, from that moment onwards, she never plucked flowers from plants and trees. Every time she saw a beautiful flower on a bush or a tree, she would mentally dedicate it to God saying, "O Lord! This is Yours. Accept this flower as my humble offering to You!" Lakshmi Ammal has told us that, ever since the incident, she was reminded of Sri Bhagavan's words every time she saw a flowering bush!
There are verses [No. 70 & 71] in Devi Kalottaram that say, "It is not advisable to pluck even a flower, without good reason." Our Bhagavan's life was an illustration of this all encompassing compassion which would not tolerate even the pain inflicted upon a single flower!
****
Spiritual Stories as told by Ramana Maharshi - Sri Ramanasramam, 2010 ed.
Sweet of Speech:
Sati Devi, the wife of Siva and the daughter of Daksha gave up her life, as she was insulted by her father, during the yajna performed by him. She was subsequently born to Himavan and Menaka as Parvati. She wanted only Lord Siva as her husband, and to achieve that purpose, she set out for doing tapas. Menaka, while trying to prevent her from doing so said, "U [no] Ma [give up]." That is how she got her name Uma. Finding Menaka's dissuasion of no use, Himavan took her to the tapovana [hermitage] where Siva was staying in the form of Sri Dakshinamurti, and said: "This little child of mine wants to do tapas. Please allow her to be under your care." Seeing Parvati, Siva said, "Why tapas at this tender age? Why not go home with father?" Parvati replied, "No, I won't go." Parameswara tried to dissuade her skilfully by saying, "I have conquered prakriti [nature] and so could concentrate on this tapas. If you are to be here, you will be exposed to the ravage of prakriti. So please go back."
Parvati was equally skilful. So she said, "Oh Lord! You say you have conquered prakriti. Without some relationship with prakriti, how could you do tapas? You have just spoken. How could you do that without prakriti? How could you walk? Without your knowing it, prakriti is occupying your heart. If it is not for the sake of argument, if you are really above the influence of prakriti, why are you afraid of my staying here?"
Siva was pleased with this and said, "Ingithagna!" [You who are skilled in thought reading], Madhuravachani! {You, who are sweet of speech] stay on!" and sent Himavan home.
****
Teacher is the Teaching:
Direct Teaching of Bhagavan Ramana - Sri V. Ganesan., Sri Ramanasramam,
2011 edn.]
I have had the great opportunity and proud privilege of spending thirty five years with forty to fifty old devotees of Sri Ramana Maharshi and also with so many sages and saints. The one thing that they all taught me, as if in one voice, was that the 'teacher' is the 'teaching.' And that the 'teaching' is all important. Paying attention to the 'teaching' is not the same as paying attention to the person, the 'teacher'. Therefore, seekers attention should be on the 'teaching' and putting into practice alone. For, the 'teaching' is the 'teacher'.
Out of ignorance, one takes the 'teacher' to be merely the body. The idea of 'different' or 'many' teachers comes up only because of this basic ignorance in one's right understanding. These old devotees ever lived the 'teaching' of Sri Ramana, and thereby were always living in Sadguru Bhagavan Ramana. Thus, they were ever happy and they always made every listener happy. When one lives teaching oneself, the aroma of the 'teaching' will help all the listeners. The highest and greatest gratitude one can pay to a 'teacher' is to put into one's life the practice of his 'teaching'!
.......
.......
It is, perhaps, easier to understand the above, in the light of the following revealing anecdote:
Mrs. Roda McIver was a devout Parsee devotee of Sri Bhagavan, residing in the vicinity of Sri Ramanasramam all her life. For years, she was nurturing within herself the none-too improbable prayer of putting her head on the sacred feet of her Sadguru, Bhagavan Ramana. The rules of the Asramam, however, strictly prohibited anyone touching the Maharshi's feet! Thus, she wanted to accomplish her cherished wish when the Maharshi was all alone. Fortunately for her, one day, after breakfast, the Maharshi was walking alone through a small room and Roda rushed to Him and was about to fall at His feet. The Maharshi gesticulated enquiring what she wanted. She said: "Bhagavan! My life's one prayerful ambition is to put my head at the sacred feet of my Sadguru Sri Ramana. Please permit me and thus bless me, Bhagavan!"
The Maharshi, coming closer to her and pointing to His feet, said: "Roda! Are these feet of the Sadguru? The Sadguru's feet are ever here [pointing to her Heart}! Merge your mind in the Heart; and, truly that is putting your head at the feet of your Sadguru!"
The central teaching of the Maharshi is that one's divisive mind has to be merged at its Source, the Self. And that the Self resides at one's Heart. He also said that God, Guru and the Self are synonymous. Thus, the Guru, as the Self ever shines as one's Heart. And therefore, Guru's holy feet are none other than one's own Heart! This clearly brings out the truth: The Teaching is the Teacher!
*****
Hello Subramanian
No I didn’t know that sleep is “the characteristic teachings of non-dualists”.
I find it a very useful model for understanding and contemplating the ‘I’ that is “added” on waking, to that that continues in all 3 states.
.
Ravi,
I know you would say that it is mentioned as a ‘view’.But I thought there were many posts in the past including the one by you about a conversation between Brahma and some other about how even God’s help was Predestined.In my previous post Robert Adams very clearly talks about complete 'Predestiny'.Here is a quote(not view) by Bhagawan.
***:
Q: I can understand that the outstanding events in a man’s life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or
profession, marriage, death, etc., are all predestined by his karma, but can it be that all the details of his life, down to
the minutest, have already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor
here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, at such and such an hour, I should move the
fan like this and put it down here?
A: Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when it came into existence.
***
The point I am making is Predestiny and Kaali/Eeshwara/Father/Grace/God's will/Sentient God etc are contradictory.Ofcourse we have no other choice but to make an effort.
Hi S,
That statement is taken from the same post.Read that post again.
Rgrds,
-Z
z,
"The point I am making is Predestiny and Kaali/Eeshwara/Father/Grace/God's will/Sentient God etc are contradictory.Ofcourse we have no other choice but to make an effort."
Forget What Sri Bhagavan or Robert Adams is saying?What is your experience?Are you aware of Predestination?Is it only a belief?
Ofcourse,Faith is important and we need to trust the words of the Great ones to start with;but sooner or later,we need to translate it into something experiential and meaningful.
The Question to be asked is whether this Faith in Predestination is enabling us or crippling us-What is our position.Are we using it to explain away our failures?
Having said this ,this is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
"God's ways are inscrutable
"The ways of God are inscrutable indeed. Bhishma lay on his bed of arrows. The Pandava
brothers visited him in Krishna's company. Presently Bhishma burst into tears. The
Pandavas said to Krishna: 'Krishna, how amazing this is! Our grandsire Bhishma is one of
the eight Vasus. Another man as wise as he is not to be found. Yet even he is bewildered by
maya and weeps at death.' 'But', said Krishna, 'Bhishma isn't weeping on that account. You
may ask him about it.' When asked, Bhishma said: 'O Krishna, I am unable to understand
anything of the ways of God; God Himself is the constant companion of the Pandavas, and
still they have no end of trouble. That is why I weep. When I reflect on this, I realize that
one cannot understand anything of God's ways.'
"God has revealed to me that only the Paramatman, whom the Vedas describe as the Pure
Soul, is as immutable as Mount Sumeru, unattached, and beyond pain and pleasure. There
is much confusion in this world of His maya. One can by no means say that 'this' will come
after 'that' or 'this' will produce 'that'."
Everyone of us can testify to the above statement.
If we understand this position,it will be clear that 'God is the only certainty' and everything else is unsubstantial 'indeterminate' and in the realm of prabability.One then develops the understanding and learns to accept everything as the Grace of God.
Namaskar.
Z,
My apologies for that error. I re-read that initial post and the statement is, as you pointed out, from the same post.
best wishes,
Hi Z, folks,
“The above statement means everything is predestined/automatic.Then whence is Mother Kaali, her Grace and her will??”
First, let us see how Divine Grace can have a role to play in Liberation when everything is predetermined.
We all know how Sri Bhagavan would sometimes use the analogy of a cine-film/screen to explain the nature of the world. The story as told in the film, the characters, what happens to them, the emotions they display (rather than the emotions they let themselves feel inside) are all chalked out and frozen in the length of film.
And when the film plays out, it will play out in exactly the manner as its frozen contents. But the Camera/Projector Operator can stop playing the film itself at any time can He not, as per His own inclination or will? And that constitutes the Act of Divine Grace. The contents do not change, but that fact is meaningless, as the film itself has stopped running; the world then is not, and only the Self Is.
Else, if we talk of Divine Grace in the context of day to day situations, then the act of Grace is in the picking-up of events which will play out in this life, pre-set at the moment the life came into being. The Lord lovingly picks out the “frames” in the film if you will, the slides to be put in the slide projector for this present life, in such a manner that it will benefit the devotee the most (picked out from the devotee’s accumulated Karma). So, some events may be heart-breaking for the devotee, but the Lord has put them there for his overall advancement.
So, in my humble opinion Z, there is really no contradiction. And, of course we have no choice but to make “effort”. But, my friend, “effort” is not really sitting down for 2 hours of meditation or even 18 hours. Because the fact of sitting down at meditation is already pre-written for you by the Lord out of Grace. Of course, if you use that time to do real meditation, instead of thinking of this & that, then you have used the opportunity that Grace offered you well, and have certainly made “effort”. But the real “effort” comes in, in how you react mentally and deal with the situations that crop up every minute of the day during the normal activities of life. How do you deal with the cards of life that are dealt to you every second? Do you howl and cry and bemoan your fate or do you thank the Lord and still focus on the Self all the time, the “I” within? Do you do every act as the doer, or as a non-doer - an instrument of the Lord ? If you try and do the latter in each instance, then, really, are you making “effort”. One that is eligible for the sweeping flow of Divine Grace that just shuts the “film” down from playing.
Best wishes
Dear Anon.,
The ideas of destiny [vidhi] and free will [madhi] have been dealt with clearly by Sri Bhagavan in His ULLadu Narpadu, Verse 19.
The war of words on whether fate [destiny] will prevail over free will or free will over fate, are only to those ignorant ones who know not the truth of the ego, the source of the twain. Those who have known the truth of the source of the ego -- the Atman, the very form of Knowledge, -- have transcended both. Will they ever resort to them thereafter? Tell me.
Once Devaraja Mudaliar asked Sri Bhagavan, whether even simple acts like taking a glass of water or lifting a hand fan from ground for fanning, are pre destined. Sri Bhagavan said: Yes. Everything is predestined.
So only when ego operates, the destiny also wags its tail. So also the free will. When the ego is vanquished and those who have realized the Truth upon ego becoming quiescent in Atman such things will not bother him any more.
Muruganar says in his further explanation to Verse 1146 of GVK:
Apart from the Jivanmukta, no one can escape prarabdha [destiny]. As long as there is consciousness of the body, the destiny that produces the fruit of the twin karmas will arise and be exhausted.
In Day by Day, entry dated 19th November 2011, it is stated:
Bhagavan: It is sometimes said, 'The body of the Jnani will continue till the force of prarabdha works itself out, and after the prarabdha is exhausted it will drop off.' An illustration made use of in this connection is that of an arrow already discharged which will continue to advance and strike its target. But the truth is the Jnani has transcended all karmas, including the prarabdha karma, and he is not bound by the body or its karmas.
IN Upadesa Manjari, Ch. III and Q & A 9 also it is said:
Q: Is it possible to overcome, even while the body exists, the karma [prarabdha] which is said to last till the end of the body?
Sri B: Yes. If the agent [doer] upon whom the karma depends, namely the ego, which has come into existence between the body and the Self, merges in its Source, and loses its form, will the karma which depends upon it alone survive? Therefore, when there is no 'I' there is no karma.
*****
Hi Arvind,
You wrote:
'Do you do every act as the doer, or as a non-doer - an instrument of the Lord ? If you try and do the latter in each instance, then, really, are you making “effort”.
Could you please elaborate on trying to do every act as a 'non-doer'? A friend once told me that the way to go about it is to mentally affirm that only the lord is the doer and we are just his instruments.Is it one of the ways of doing every act as a non-doer?
Thanks.
Ravi,
I am not approving or condemining anything and if I try to I cannot.I am only pointing out that you cannot put both of those conflicitng statetments of the Parmahamsa next to each other.Each are right when considered alone but if you try to reconcile them both then they will become the paradox that Robert Adams is pointing out.The same paradox people expressed in their own language.BhishmaCharya failed to understand, the Parahamsa said inscrutable,Robert Adams called it Paradox,Sankara called it Maaya,Lord Buddha called it the complex of 'Dependent Origination',Thyagaraja said : 'samayāniki tagu maatalaadenae', UG advised not to link his disjoint statements, Murugunar mentioned the seed, plant and the tree in GVK,and now Scientists are vainly trying to formulate String Theory,Theory of Everything(TOE).This is also what I tried to point out in the example of Swami Vivekananda that you quoted a while ago: the example of taking photos of the Sun as we go towards it.
It is also the same with Grace.There is Grace when we discover it.Bhagawan always pointed out in a subtle manner that his Grace is always flowing, ever.What we consider as his Sankalpa he many times said things happened automatically around him.
So I have no place to stand, no view where I can stand; I find it doesn't hold long.This is also why I said the kids should enjoy the fun of the fake Christmas Santa as it will help them grow up.Hence Koran and Bible talk about THAT in only riddles.But how long can they hold it off?Bhagawat Gita tried to be clever about it like both the Self-Enquiry and the Temple in the Ramanashram.What is suitable depends on the Audience.Right or wrong depends on Time/age.Hence I said 'Suit Yourself'.
Regards,
-Z
Dear m.,
If one has got total faith and surrender to god or guru and genuinely considers himself, as his
instrument for ALL ACTIVITIES in life, then it only indicates that the ego is lost. When the ego is lost where is the question of doership and nondoership? Still a Jnani or a self surrendered bhakta does karmas with the bhavana [firm conviction that he is doing them as God's. So in such cases doings are there but no doership. So also the case with Jnanis. Their doing is there but no doership.
Saint Tirunavukkarasar says in one of his Tevaram songs: It is your duty to take care of me and it is my duty to do service to you. So "doing service" without any doership but as instrument of god.
Nangadan adiyenaiym thaanguthal,
Enkadan paNi seithu kitappthe.
Sri Bhagavan also says in ULLadu Narpadu, Verse 38: Once a person realizes the Self, the sense of agency is lost and the three karmas slip away....
****
Dear Anon.,
Yes. Suit yourself. And that is the sum and substance. In Sri Ramanasramam, some people always sit in Samadhi Hall or Mother's Temple and watch the pujas with ardent devotion. They touch the camphor and apply it on their eyes, then apply vibhuti and kumkum. It suits them to follow this practice to obtain
Grace of Sri Bhagavan.
Some other are interested in morning Sanskrit Veda gosha and evening Tamizh parayanas. They listen to it with a lot of sraddha. I have seen Westerners and non-Tamizhians keeping an anglicized version of the songs and singing and listening to the group simultaneously.
There are some more, who faithfully sit for book reading. They listen to book reading both Tamizh and English for about one hour without any distraction whatsoever.
There a few more who go straight to the Old Hall and meditate for one or two hours, closing their eyes.
I have seen David coming on some days in a week, and without taking part in any activity, even Old Hall meditation, but simply do pradakshina for innumerable times to Sri Bhagavan's Samadhi.
Now for whom Grace is bestowed? For all the types that I mentioned above. But for others, other than the meditators in the Old Hall, Sri Bhagavan awaits for them to move to the Old Hall and do such meditation, so that the Grace will continue to flow and make them attain self realization. Because Sri Bhagavan's method is only this. But He permits other methods because direct entry into Old Hall for meditation is only for ripe souls.
Every where, faith is the key. Sri Bhagavan said to Dilip Kumar Roy, who was a very good singer, that his heart melting singing itself would confer him liberation. When Devaraja Mudaliar later asked, whether he can also sing Sri Ramana Sannidhi MuRai and Tiruvachakam, and attain liberation, Sri Bhagavan clearly said: That path is not for you!
They also serve who stand and wait, as Bible said.
*****
z,
"Each are right when considered alone but if you try to reconcile them both then they will become the paradox that Robert Adams is pointing out.The same paradox people expressed in their own language."
I do not find the contradiction in that specific post.However,I do understand what you are trying to say-and I agree.
This is what Sri Aurobindo says in 'Thoughts and Aphorisms':
"Aphorism no 45. Only those thoughts are true the opposite of which is also true in its own time and application; indisputable dogmas are the most dangerous kind of falsehoods."
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
Z/m/Arvind/Ravi/Subramanian & others:
oh my! the age old conundrum of 'freewill' and 'fate'! guess everybody at some point or the other will have puzzled over this undecidable hypothesis :-) thanks to arvind for the excellent analogy of the 'cinema projector'... the time when one tends to get adrift with the conflict of freewill & destiny is also precisely the moment which is wonderfully suited for 'vichAra' :-)
encounters with unsolvability and inconsistency act as speed-breakers to the onslaught of continual outward movement & perforce compel one to pause & reflect, question & enquire... in essence, everytime one gets bothered by freewill & fate, or anything else, then the gong of vichAra should ring, the rising surge of thoughts chopped, attention drawn to the 'i', and investigate whence 'it' arises :-) again & again & again...
'm.' asked - 'how to do every act as a 'non-doer'? - non-doership means to realise the non-existence of a 'doer', and not 'to do' and somehow presume one to have 'not done' it by imposing 'god's will' or some such thing !!! can there be a better way to beget this 'awareness than through vichAra? somehow, i have never understood what is meant by 'doing an act without sense of doership'! for an 'i', i would say no such thing exists. so long as there is an 'individual', every act, whether one accepts or not, likes it or not, is prompted & motivated by the desire for the fruits of performing such an action. this is also applicable to those who claim to 'love' bhagavAn, for why do we love bhagavAn? come on, let's not fool ourselves; we love bhagavAn for 'security', and if such a 'security' is not forthcoming here, then one imagines it to be coming in the hereafter!
likewise, why does one do 'vichAra'? isn't it motivated by the desire to be free or know the truth or simply the urge to also taste the Anandam that bhagavAn was in all through? of course, yes. hence, there is nothing like 'doing the act sans doership' for one entrenched in the primal 'i-am-the-body' identification. hence, it appears, that it's only for the one abiding in the self (such as our beloved bhagavAn) that one can even speak of actions done (automatically) without a doer :-) self-enquiry enables us to 'break' this inexplicable slavery of ignorance by helping us realise that no such ignorance was present at any time to begin with! (not by intellection but by experience) :-)
Friends,
Just to put the topic under focus-The discussion was about Predestination and Divine Grace-and this somehow got metamorphosed into Destiny and Freewill!
Our Friend s is a thorough votary of vichara-but one needs to remember that what is valid for one need not be valid for another.
There are a couple of statements in his latest post that are a bit of sweeping generalization:
1. we love bhagavAn for 'security', and if such a 'security' is not forthcoming here, then one imagines it to be coming in the hereafter! -I have to say that this is not true.This is clear even from an everyday standpoint-How is it that one loves a 'Baby'(even if it be an utter stranger)-The Baby cannot extend any 'security' or 'protection',yet one is simply captivated by the very charm and utter innocense of the baby.
2." i have never understood what is meant by 'doing an act without sense of doership'!"
This is also negated in the everyday world,when any activity is done with full attention.The 'Doership' is not in the action per se but in thinking about the 'act' and associating with it.The issue here is one of Spontaneity versus contrived.Are all our actions 'contrived'?or is it possible to be 'spontaneous'?
Even in such a routine task of 'walking'-one can experience a spontaneity when the 'Walking' just takes over and the 'Walker' is not there-People who might have done Giripradakshina of arunachala might have experienced this.
What is true for a moment is true for Eternity-Sadhana is just for this alone.
Namaskar.
Hi m, folks,
Thanks m. for the query. So, how to “do” as a “non-doer”? Though I have come across innumerable instances in sacred texts and in talks of various saints saying that we should do acts as a “non-doer” or as an instrument of God, the only clear and practical instructions on the same that I have EVER come across, come from Sri Bhagavan.
These instructions and teachings come under the sub-heading “Work” in “Conscious Immortality”, Pg 25. Well worth a read folks ….
Here is the particularly relevant passage from the above (Pg 27):
Bhagavan: “You can stay where you are and go on with work. What is the undercurrent which gives life to the mind and enables it to do all this work? Why, the Self! So, that is the real source of your activity. Simply become aware of it during your work and do not forget it. Contemplate it in the background of your mind even when you are working. To do that, do NOT hurry! Take your time, keep the remembrance of your real nature alive, even while working, and avoid haste which causes you to forget. Be deliberate. Practice vichara to still the mind and cause it to become aware of its true relationship to the Self, which supports it. Do not imagine it is you who are doing the work. Think that it is the underlying current which is doing it. Identify yourself with this current. If you work unhurriedly, recollectedly, your work or service need not be a hindrance.” [Italics mine]
Best wishes
So sorry folks, errata:
The text actually has “meditation” in place of “vichara” as typed out by me in the fourth last line. Guess have vichara on the mind folks!
[“Vichara” is probably what is actually meant by “meditation” in the recorder/translator’s usage anyway].
Best wishes
Dear all,
Non doing is doing without raga dvesaha [likes and dislikes]. Sri
Bhagavan has given the example of a
cashier who handles lakhs of rupees in a bank or a treasury, as if he has
nothing to do with it. He does not own the money and he so does without raga and dvesha. The sense of ownership or desire to own makes all the difference.
If one thinks that he has got free will, then it means God has destined him to have this 'free will' for sometime. If one thinks that everything is pre-destined, then he acts as per God's free will.
Dear all,
Non doing is doing without raga dvesaha [likes and dislikes]. Sri
Bhagavan has given the example of a
cashier who handles lakhs of rupees in a bank or a treasury, as if he has
nothing to do with it. He does not own the money and he so does without raga and dvesha. The sense of ownership or desire to own makes all the difference.
If one thinks that he has got free will, then it means God has destined him to have this 'free will' for sometime. If one thinks that everything is pre-destined, then he acts as per God's free will.
Dear Friends, Last time I was in the ashram, devotion took many forms:
One diminutive sadhu would suddenly burst into song in front of Mother's shrine.
A Czech man would sit in front of Mother's samadhi in between people's legs and in a seemingly blissful state, with a beatific smile on his face and seemed unaware that people may very well trample him.
Still others walked around and around Ramana's Samadhi. Some with quick steps others used mindfulness techniques walking extremely slowly.
One elderly Indian man was very bossy and decided he was a self appointed sarvadakari.
The whole scene was a kaleidoscope of colour, frangrance, ritual. All threaded together by devotion and each to their own inclinations.
All were blessed.
SUNYATA : James Johnson :
[Mountain Path, Jan-Mar. 2011]:
SUNYATA was born Alfred Julius Immanuel Sorensen on a small farm near Arhus, Denmark, 27 October 1890.
He left the body in Marin County, California, in 1984, at the age of 94. Between these two bookends of his life, he worked as a gardener, lived for nearly 50 years in India, received his initiation and name from Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, and was revered as a saint by many in Northern India.
About seven years before he exited the stage of this life, representatives of the Alan Watts Foundation brought Sunyata to California from his Indian home in the Himalayas near Almora, Uttarakhand. The foundation would take care of all his needs as he aged. When he asked them what he was expected to do in America as he had nothing to teach, they replied that all he had to was to 'teach silence'. Once there, he held well attended satsanghs once a week mostly in silence, on Alan Watt's house boat, the Vallejo, berthed on the San Francisco Bay. This is where I met him.
Emmanuel, meaning 'God with us', as he thought of himself and was called in his youth, passed an uneventful and happy rural childhood often silent and blissfully alone in nature. In his writings, he describes how he largely escaped 'headeducation' and 'churchianity', and successfully fought off the tumultous rising of an 'egoji' in his early teens. These and other novel terms he later invented characterized his playful and joyous use of English in his speech and writing. For example, instead of 'egoless', 'thoughtless or deathless', he would always use 'ego-free', 'thought-free or death free' as closer to the true sentiments he felt.
Moreover, he never spoke of being free 'of' or 'from' ego, thought or death, but rather 'in' them, implying a 'joyous ease' in conditioned existence. For Sunyata it had lost its substance, its absolute seriousness, and was now a place of leela, not maya. 'Understanding' was always 'innerstanding' for him. For he thought that this transliteration would one day become part of the English language.
contd.,
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