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Sri Ramana Maharshi
Welcome
I propose to use this blog primarily to air my occasional musings on any matters relating to the life and teachings of Ramana Maharshi. There will also be occasional contributions about Arunachala, the sacred mountain where Sri Ramana spent all of his adult life.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
871 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 871 of 871coming to Tirumular's Asai vidumin,eesanOdayinum Asai vidumin-Asai refers to desire and not Love.Tirumular is only asking to eschew craving and is not discounting Loving devotion
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Dear Ravi,
I totally agree with you. In my previous post, I have mentioned that even craving for God has to be stopped. In my humble opinion, the Supreme love towards God is possible only after the experience. Please see the quotes from my previous post.
“Tirumular has sung a verse "Arumin, Arumin, Asai Arumin, Isanodu Ayinum Asai Arumin". Severe all the craving, even the craving towards God.”
“The pure devotion happens after experiencing the Truth. Once the devotee finds the formless being is the only reality and present in all forms supreme love comes naturally. As sufi poet Rumi puts it – “Lovers don't finally meet somewhere, they're in each other all along.” We could feel the Bhakthi Rasa from Bhagavan’s “Sri Arunachala Aksharamanamalai”.
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This particular verse from Tirumular has a deep and profound meaning. Whatever path we take, as long as the “Sadhaka” remains, then experience is not possible. In the case of Bhakthi Yoga, the highest rank is complete surrender - the person shouldn’t exist.
Girish Chandra Gosh was a disciple of Ramakrishnar. Before becoming the disciple, Girish was a drunkard and seen with many women. Somehow, Girish was attracted towards Paramahamsar. Girish found He always seems to be happy with no belongings and seek advice from him.
Ramakrishnar gave advice on different methods including, but Girish categorically rejected all and requested a suitable one for his personality. Then Guru said, there is one thing you can do, give the power of attorney to me. From now on, you belong to me. Girish replied, it is so easy and agreed to it. Girish continued his usual activities. Couple of days passed, came back to Guru and complained that I still find disturbance in my mind. He questioned, “Remember you have surrendered to me, it is no longer your mind, how can you get disturbed, if there are issues I have to deal with it and not you”. Girish gradually understood the true meaning of surrender, wherein the person doesn’t exist. Later, Vivekananda himself told, “I haven’t seen another person like Girish, who has exemplified Guru Bhakthi”.
When Tirumular says “Isanodu Ayinum Asai Arumin”, the craving for God should also stop. Why? As long as the false “I” claims that “I am doing Japa”, “I am loving God”, etc., the real “I” doesn’t shine forth.
This is true with other paths as well. I heard once Bhagavan said the seeker should also GO in order to realize the Self. Ramanar has given an example. In the cremation ground, the cremator uses a stick to control the body remains that jumps out during the cremation. And after everything settles down, the cremator throws away the stick as well into the fire. Similarly, seeker should perform what he has to do based on Prarbhda. While doing so, the person should lose “I am the doer” sense.
To summarize, in Bhakthi Yoga, the seeker should completely surrender, in Karma Yoga, the person performs his actions without “I am the doer” sense, in Raja Yoga, the person performs the meditation without thinking that he is the meditator, in Jnana Yoga, the seeker questions himself until he finds an “I” that cannot be eliminated, which shines forth automatically. Then the seeker experiences the supreme love towards God. From there, the grace of God takes over him. Then another verse of Tirumular (Anbe sivam) becomes true – Anbe sivamavathu aarum arinthapin, Anbe sivamai amaranth irunthaare – the seeker after realizing the God, he becomes the supreme love itself which is God’s quality.
Matru Bhava is very much within the reach of every average seeker.If this is there then all rejection of untoward vasanas becomes automatic.No need to do any sort of Policing on who is coming next.
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Dear Ravi,
Absolutely, the supreme love is present in all the forms, which couldn't be found at this time. This statement would be similar to: Self exists across all forms at all times but we are not aware of it.
The question is: does the seeker aware whether he is practicing Bhava? If the answer comes from the intellect or mind plain then it is Bhavana. The awareness is to help to determine the obstacles in the form of vasanas and find a suitable way to reach the goal. When we sit for meditation we will come to know about the vasanas within us. If that meditation is practiced throughout the waking period it becomes awareness. Obviously, the goal is not to policing all the time. This would be waiting for the waves to stop in the ocean.
If you look at my previous response, "Based on the latent tendencies of the seeker, different avenues have to be explored with constant contemplation of Guru’s teachings, combined with awareness."
Basically, it is a combination of awareness with satvic related activities such as Guru's teachings, reading scriptures, japa, etc, whatever appropriate for the seeker. The seeker will find a specific teaching that may not be suitable in the present moment, finds appropriate at a later stage including practicing matru and madhura bhava.
Ramesh N/Friends,
The Tirumular verse-'Asai aRumin,Asai aRumin'-The Refrain makes it clear that the emphasis is on cutting asunder Desires.He adds that 'even if it be for god,Desire needs to be sundered'.This is to say that Desire is to be eschewed unqualifyingly.This is not to say -'Do not desire God'.If we put it this way,we see clearly how absurd it is to desire God.God is Love and one can only love God.Bhakti Yoga is all about Loving God.Why bother whether the Ego has to Drop away,why insist on these conditions?Simply Love.It is possible.We know it.How?Simply by this fact that Love cannot be measured;One cannot have more or less of it.One can have more or less of desire,not Love.This constancy is what differentiates Love from Desire(Not whether the Ego is present or absent).
The normal nature of Desire is like this-As long as the object that it seeks to possess is out of Reach,it gives it a magnified and totally disproportionate value.The moment that desired Object is attained,it loses all value and once again it looks for a different Object.This is the way that it perpetuates itself.Craving is its cousin brother that does the same in terms of Psychological experiences,always seeking pleasure triggered by the memory of the previous experience.
We are thus continually driven slaves-and Tirumular wants this to be cut asunder.
In Love,there is no craving,only fulfillment.This Love is Sivam.
It does not require superhuman effort to get rid of the Ego in order to experience it.
It is the thought and desires that project the Ego and not viceversa.Just take care of these desires and one need not bother about the Ego.
This preoccupation with Ego and its banishment is only a play of the mind.
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There is no need to mystify all this.Love and peace are needed by all and we all have experienced it.Sadhana is only to recover this and not let it be smothered by the smoke of desire.
Namaskar.
teachings of Ramakrishna and Ramana maharshi evidently are the same.
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from Vivekananda on Bhakti Yoga:
"Bhakti has been the one constant theme of our sages. Apart from the special writers on Bhakti, such as Shândilya or Narada, the great commentators on the Vyâsa-Sutras, evidently advocates of knowledge (Jnâna), have also something very suggestive to say about love. Even when the commentator is anxious to explain many, if not all, of the texts so as to make them import a sort of dry knowledge, the Sutras, in the chapter on worship especially, do not lend themselves to be easily manipulated in that fashion.
There is not really so much difference between knowledge (Jnana) and love (Bhakti) as people sometimes imagine. We shall see, as we go on, that in the end they converge and meet at the same point. So also is it with Râja-Yoga, which when pursued as a means to attain liberation, and not (as unfortunately it frequently becomes in the hands of charlatans and mystery-mongers as an instrument to hoodwink the unwary) leads us also to the same goal.
The one great advantage of Bhakti is that it is the easiest and the most natural way to reach the great divine end in view; its great disadvantage is that in its lower forms it oftentimes degenerates into hideous fanaticism. The fanatical crew in Hinduism, or Mohammedanism, or Christianity, have always been almost exclusively recruited from these worshippers on the lower planes of Bhakti. That singleness of attachment (Nishthâ) to a loved object, without which no genuine love can grow, is very often also the cause of the denunciation of everything else. All the weak and undeveloped minds in every religion or country have only one way of loving their own ideal, i.e. by hating every other ideal. Herein is the explanation of why the same man who is so lovingly attached to his own ideal of God, so devoted to his own ideal of religion, becomes a howling fanatic as soon as he sees or hears anything of any other ideal. This kind of love is somewhat like the canine instinct of guarding the master's property from intrusion; only, the instinct of the dog is better than the reason of man, for the dog never mistakes its master for an enemy in whatever dress he may come before it. Again, the fanatic loses all power of judgment. Personal considerations are in his case of such absorbing interest that to him it is no question at all what a man says — whether it is right or wrong; but the one thing he is always particularly careful to know is who says it. The same man who is kind, good, honest, and loving to people of his own opinion, will not hesitate to do the vilest deeds when they are directed against persons beyond the pale of his own religious brotherhood.
But this danger exists only in that stage of Bhakti which is called the preparatory (Gauni). When Bhakti has become ripe and has passed into that form which is called the supreme (Parâ), no more is there any fear of these hideous manifestations of fanaticism; that soul which is overpowered by this higher form of Bhakti is too near the God of Love to become an instrument for the diffusion of hatred.
............continued..............
Friends,
"Bhakti-Yoga is a real, genuine search after the Lord, a search beginning, continuing, and ending in love."-Vivekananda.
This puts everything in a beautiful perspective.The Beginning itself is in LOVE .
Vivekananda also adds superbly:
"Apart from the special writers on Bhakti, such as Shândilya or Narada, the great commentators on the Vyâsa-Sutras(Sri Sankara is included-Ravi), evidently advocates of knowledge (Jnâna), have also something very suggestive to say about love. Even when the commentator is anxious to explain many, if not all, of the texts so as to make them import a sort of dry knowledge, the Sutras, in the chapter on worship especially, do not lend themselves to be easily manipulated in that fashion."
He further says-and this is the crux of it:
"There is a little difference in opinion between the teachers of knowledge and those of love, though both admit the power of Bhakti. The Jnanis hold Bhakti to be an instrument of liberation, the Bhaktas look upon it both as the instrument and the thing to be attained. To my mind this is a distinction without much difference. In fact, Bhakti, when used as an instrument, really means a lower form of worship, and the higher form becomes inseparable from the lower form of realisation at a later stage. Each seems to lay a great stress upon his own peculiar method of worship, forgetting that with perfect love true knowledge is bound to come even unsought, and that from perfect knowledge true love is inseparable."
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Even sages have this penchant to intrapolate and interpret and Bhakti does not admit any such mental accretions.It cannot be defined or qualified.The statement that Love is only when the Lover is not is one such 'construction' by the mind.
Namaskar.
Hi anonymous, I agree that mother Teresa was wonderful.Years ago I saw a splendid documentary about her. She seemed to be full of 'bava' reaching out to the poorest of the poor. The local Indians seemed indifferent and callous for not doing more.
A book called 'The missionary position' was published years ago showing a different perspective.
Apparently large amounts of money came in from dubious sources, like ruthless dictators. Instead of useing it in aid of the poor she seemed to prefer to spend it on more church building. Mother Teresa seemed happy to leave the poor she was tending in primitive conditions almost like she was glorifying poverty. There were rumours that a fair amount of Christian proselyetising went on in the last hours of these destitute Indians. I think it's a good idea to view mother Teresa from all angles.
hj
namaskaram,
kindly share your thoughts on tears welling up and crying while thinking of GOD, more so of Bhagavan or looking at his picture or reading about Him.
sincerely - Ramana paitiyam :-)
While critical perspectives about someone have the potential to be helpful. I'm also cautious, about writing that is meant to discredit or character assassinate someone. Specifically referring to the comment about Mother Theresa. Alot of information about people out there, is just plain defamation. So I think it's important to be critical. Ramana Maharshi was targeted in such a way. Of course he was transcendently indifferent. But for instance, on one of my first Google searches of Ramana Maharshi, there was a link saying that he was a Nazi (rooted in aryanism) because of the comment about Hitler. (I was already in love with Ramana, so it didn't effect me) I think that person really was stating their own opinion as opposed to being purposely dishonest, but a highly ill-informed opinion. Some of the stuff I'm most cautious, or skeptical about, is where it really seems like the author has it in for that person, has a beef, instead of just dispassionately discussing the issues. I would say usually most of that stuff is skewed and lacking in clarity, but it is also more appealing to the sensationalist mind. Words like "ruthless" being associated with Mother Theresa, arouses skepticism.
More personally. The more I question my own identity as this ego-I, person, and abide in a more happy natural state, the harder it is to objectify others. If what I believe about myself is not true, if I'm not this person who did this and that, and went here and there. It's harder for me to view others as a collection of facts about them, that I can learn from a book I pick up off the shelves about their lives. The author may judge aspects of their lives, but totally have it wrong. Maybe what they view as a failure was from a higher perspective a great success, or the opposite. More and more it's the true Self, that is who I am, so how can I reduce others to only viewing them as their ego-selves, that I can then hold an opinion of, judge, blame. Why do I need to have an opinion about anyone else? And sometimes, as I've questioned this way, and seen more clearly, I've found that my previous opinions, the things I believed were quite incorrect. If I want to truly understand what someone else is about, what better way to do that, then realize who they are, by realizing who I am. Then I really know what they are about, because their ego-self, assuming they have one. I don't know what the case is with Mother Theresa. But if they have an ego-self, it's not them, right? That's the crux of Maharshi's teachings. Who am I? I am not the false, mirage like ego, soul, jiva, etc. So they can't be either. So in that way, being stuck in the ego forming an opinion of another ego, seems like problematic in the quest to know the Self.
Ramana paithiyam(Ramana Nutcase)
"kindly share your thoughts on tears welling up and crying while thinking of GOD, more so of Bhagavan or looking at his picture or reading about Him."
I have taken the liberty of translating your chosen Tamil name that indicates your love for Sri Bhagavan.
This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
Longing and yearning
M: "Under what conditions does one see God?"
MASTER: "Cry to the Lord with an intensely yearning heart and you will certainly
see Him. People shed a whole jug of tears for wife and children. They swim in tears
for money. But who weeps for God? Cry to Him with a real cry."
The Master sang:
Cry to your Mother Syama , with a real cry, O mind!
And how can She hold Herself from you?
How can Syama stay away?
How can your Mother Kali hold Herself away?
O mind, if you are in earnest, bring Her an offering
Of bel-leaves and hibiscus flowers;
Lay at Her feet your offering
And with it mingle the fragrant sandal-paste of Love.
Continuing, he said: "Longing is like the rosy dawn. After the dawn out comes the
sun. Longing is followed by the vision of God."
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One needs to take care to nurture this aspiration-Bhakti,vairagya and viveka.Sentimentality is to be avoided-Like what Sri Ramakrishna used to say-The Bhakti of the worldly minded is like a couple of drops on a hot pan.It sizles and evaporates and is gone!
Yet,it is useful not to dismiss this yearning but to give it the free play to deepen.Just do not let others know.
Wish you the very Best.
Namaskar.
namaskaram,
kindly share your thoughts on tears welling up and crying while thinking of GOD, more so of Bhagavan or looking at his picture or reading about Him.
sincerely - Ramana paitiyam :-)
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Dear Anonymous,
When the love towards God or Guru becomes unconditional tears show up automatically. Showing up of tears is not a planned event.
Typically, people cry due to untoward events in life. So there is a trigger for these emotions which can be attributed to the ego.
When a devotee matures (left Kamya Bhakthi stage) in his sadhana, the devotee surrenders himself to God or Guru which transforms into unconditional love. At this stage, the grace of the God or Guru is felt, which is inexplicable, which shows in the form of tears.
Once we experience the truth, we will find the tears come up naturally. At that time, we can't relate the crying to the events related to material world or forms. The jeevan exalts in the grace of higher intelligence and couldn't express the joy, which shows up in the form of tears. The seeker forgets himself at that moment as the source is from the heart and not based on ego or personal identity.
Time and again, we have seen so many sages, saints and rishis have written so many songs on God (Self) after the experience.
I heard that once one of the devotees asked Bhagavan about Saint Thyagaraja. Bhagavan said, Thyagaraja was able to wrote those songs because of Jnaana (after experiencing the truth). In Thyagaraja songs we will find those expressions of unconditional love (Example: Nithi chala Sugama")
The devotees have noticed Bhagavan's tears while he was narrating spiritual stories. We could find the following quote from "Spiritual stories as told by Ramana Maharishi" under the preface section. "Bhagavan joined in a circle round the vacant air in front of him, while his eyes shone with devotional fervour and his voice shook with stifled sobs which did not escape our notice." We could also see the Bhagavan’s devotional love in “Arunachala Aksharamanamalai”.
The devotees who express tears may very well be in different levels in terms of spiritual maturity. Nevertheless, at any level, the devotee is in the right step towards the spiritual goal.
Ravi said,
As Sri Ramakrishna used to say-"Suppose a thief comes to know that a Great treasure …… will not rest content until he lays his hands on the Treasure."
What is the Nature of Desire?What is Desire for Self Realization?
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Dear Ravi,
Your quote by Sri Ramakrishna and the questions are inter-related.
What is the nature of desire? I guess, it is tough to define the nature of desire. Because life is desire, and desire is life. They are inseparable. In fact, the rishis say, we took life because of the desires (sankalpa). More importantly, the desire can be countless and can vary from time to time. So, defining the nature of desire is meaningless which belongs to the mind.
However, we can define the basis of desire. Nature of desire is based on the acceptance of duality. The desire can arise only when the person observes the duality. If none exists besides me, there is no question of desire.
Having said that, we cannot simply negate the presence of innumerable objects present before us by intellectual understanding. Generally, the desires are towards achieving something in the material world, such as being the CEO of the largest corporation in the world, etc., Unfortunately, there is no end in sight for such longings. Even after being the CEO, the person have to maintain that position or strive to be ahead of the competition which depends on so many external conditions. Moreover, we cannot dependent on the forms (both physical and mental) which has two characteristics: ever changing and destined to perish one day. So there should be something that doesn't undergo any changes, which can bring us the permanent peace and happiness.
We have seen from our scriptures and some of the lives of Jnaanis in the recent times, such as Ramana Maharishi, Sri Ramakrishna that there can be an end to these desires (longings.) through Self Realization. So, that is where the desire for Self Realization arises. All other desires are meaningless.
What is the desire for Self Realization? The desire for self-realization is to become free from all other desires. And this is where Ramakrishna Paramahamsar quote fits in. There is no question the thief would hesitate to carry home the loot. Similarly when we come to know about the outcome of Self Realization. So we have to desire on one entity (Guru, God, etc.,) that takes us to self-realizaton (eka tattva abhyasah - Patanjali) This would be similar to the example where Bhagavan had mentioned that the cremator uses one stick to control the remains of the dead body during cremation. As the concentration for that one entity becomes stronger, dispassion towards other objects become possible. It only takes to that level.
At this point, the stick has successfully controlled the body remains that jumps out during the cremation. i.e, concentration on a single entity has successfully developed dispassion towards other objects. Now, another advice from Bhagavan will be useful - “Irunthapadikkay iru, Iraiavan Arul Selluthum Vazhikay Sel”. “Be as you are and perform your duties under the guidance of higher intelligence.” In the case of Bhakthi yoga, when the concentration is totally on a single entity, the desire of the devotee turns into an unconditional love – complete surrender where the devotee forgets himself (the same stick used in the cremation is thrown into the fire). The duality ceases, resulting in the experience.
Thus, desire for Self Realization is required to concentrate on a single pointed entity and to develop and sustain dispassion towards other objects. Finally that desire has to drop (Easanodu Ayinum Asai Arumin) by transforming that desire into surrender through unconditional love to realize the God. Then unconditional love becomes supreme love - "Anbe sivamavathu aarum arinthapin, Anbe sivamai amaranth irunthaare".
Ramesh N,
"The desire for self-realization is to become free from all other desires."
Yes.I have nothing more to add to what I have posted.
Namaskar.
LMM, Heaven forbid that anyone should offend. Denial is the best defense against insight; I think transparency should be encouraged.
There is no need to close our eyes and "dumb down."
Let's all keep an open mind.
namaskaram,
kindly share your thoughts on tears welling up and crying while thinking of GOD, more so of Bhagavan or looking at his picture or reading about Him.
sincerely - Ramana paitiyam :-)
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Dear Ramana paitiyam,
Initially, I was hesitant to share my own experience. But since the topic is about the grace of Bhagavan, I would like to submit the following comments with great humility. The main intention about this comment is to present the undeniable grace of Bhagavan.
During my high school days, I have heard about meditation and all, but didn’t know much about it. I came to my paternal uncle house (Chittappa) in Tiruvannamalai. My chittappa took me to Ramanasramam and I read “Naan Yaar”. I was fascinated by the article, couldn’t fathom anything but sounded mystical to me. Time passed, the normal challenges in life turned my attention towards spirituality. Then I started reading articles by Bhagavan and the teachings of Him. At this time, the understanding was much better, but still above my grasp. I have started following his teachings to some extent. In fact I have tried to mimic the behavior and trying to force the concepts by suppression. It wasn’t too late before I could find the suppression bursts out into uncontrollable thoughts and actions. Then slowly understood the spiritual path is neither mimicking the behavior of the saints and sages nor can be controlled by suppression. I continued the spiritual reading.
About 6 years back I visited Thiruvannamalai again and happened to go to Ramanashramam again. As I stepped into the Samadhi hall around noon, I heard the bells and Camphor Aarathi was offered to Bhagavan. Suddenly, I had uncontrollable tears. I felt a strong force. I couldn’t explain why this was happening and somehow managed not to cry. I have been to Ramanashramam several times, but this time it was unique. It was my first spiritual experience. Obviously, this wasn’t related to the real experience one would long for, but it paved as a stepping stone for the supreme bliss experience.
I bought books from the library and headed back to my work place in USA. My spiritual practice became steady after that. But still, I couldn’t practice Bhagavan’s teachings completely, as I hadn’t reached that level of spiritual maturity. I didn’t want to force the practice by suppression, so I had started reading the Upanishads and Gita and teachings from other spiritual masters. Now and then, I would relate to Bhagavan’s teachings and his life. Slowly and steadily, I could see the progress but nothing is meaningful until I experience the truth.
About 8 months ago, one of my friends recommended “Power of Now” book by “Echkart Tolle”. I read the preview of this book in google book review website. I contemplated about what I read, suddenly everything disappeared and the real “I” shined forth – the formless being. There was more to it, but I can’t explain the experience in words. It was the supreme bliss experience where I came to know “who am I”. I had cried for no reason and experienced the true peace for the very first time. The experience helped me to understand the pure devotion and supreme love towards God. Later I noticed that I was indeed doing Bhagavan’s Self-Enquiry method by questioning the mind.
CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST ON BHAGAVAN’S GRACE
I would like to say, I felt Bhagavan’s grace when I most needed right after the experience. The experience had really transformed me across all realms: Physical, Mental and Intellectual. I felt that an important piece of a complex puzzle was placed correctly, a big burden was let go. However, at the same time, I felt a void in me. I wasn’t sure about the next steps. Later, I came to know Bhagavan’s had indicated to some of the devotees who got their first experience of the truth, in his presence. He had said this situation would be similar to “A Thief bit by a scorpion”. Thief couldn’t scream at the same time he had to. The void was felt because of sudden shift in consciousness. As I come to know the true enemy is my ego dominated mind (my thoughts) which was controlling me all this time, I couldn’t concentrate on anything. I was in a indifferent state. Basically, I got struck. And the worst case, I wasn’t able to regain the experience in spite of several tries.
So I started praying to Bhagavan, to find a way out and guide me to perform the necessary next steps. Until that time I didn’t believe in miracles. I was surprised again and again how the answers came to me in many different ways. There were so many questions related to the experience and the subsequent steps as well. The answers were delivered to me in many ways: casual conversion with one of my friends, Bhagavan guiding me during the meditation, a friend would suggest me to read something where I could find the exact answer I was looking for, out of the blue I had decided to read a specific book, etc., I started writing down all the miracles and one point of time I stopped as there were many. In spite of all the answers, I wasn’t convinced and finally something prompted me to read “Talks with Ramana Maharishi” again where Bhagavan had clearly indicated the answer I was looking for in his own words. The answer was in “Talk 95”, page 91 of this book. I cried out of his grace. The first month after the experience was really fearsome because of the void and without subsequent experiences. By Bhagavan’s grace, I got the second experience as well. With Bhagavan’s guidance, I clearly come to know the next steps I need to take. I started writing blog – http://abideinthetruth.blogspot.com/
I have been able to experience the true and peace most of the times. However, I could see that sometimes I slip out of this state. As Bhagavan indicated, it is not complete yet, until the experience becomes permanent.
I am sure as Bhagavan took through the steps from the beginning to the experience and after it, by many different ways, HE will guide the rest of the journey towards the liberation.
I prostrate before Bhagavan for all the grace bestowed towards me. HIS grace is always present, may it guide all of us towards the goal of life.
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST ON BHAGAVAN’S GRACE
I would like to say, I felt Bhagavan’s grace when I most needed right after the experience. The experience had really transformed me across all realms: Physical, Mental and Intellectual. I felt that an important piece of a complex puzzle was placed correctly, a big burden was let go. However, at the same time, I felt a void in me. I wasn’t sure about the next steps. Later, I came to know Bhagavan’s had indicated to some of the devotees who got their first experience of the truth, in his presence. He had said this situation would be similar to “A Thief bit by a scorpion”. Thief couldn’t scream at the same time he had to. The void was felt because of sudden shift in consciousness. As I come to know the true enemy is my ego dominated mind (my thoughts) which was controlling me all this time, I couldn’t concentrate on anything. I was in a indifferent state. Basically, I got struck. And the worst case, I wasn’t able to regain the experience in spite of several tries.
So I started praying to Bhagavan, to find a way out and guide me to perform the necessary next steps. Until that time I didn’t believe in miracles. I was surprised again and again how the answers came to me in many different ways. There were so many questions related to the experience and the subsequent steps as well. The answers were delivered to me in many ways: casual conversion with one of my friends, Bhagavan guiding me during the meditation, a friend would suggest me to read something where I could find the exact answer I was looking for, out of the blue I had decided to read a specific book, etc., I started writing down all the miracles and one point of time I stopped as there were many. In spite of all the answers, I wasn’t convinced and finally something prompted me to read “Talks with Ramana Maharishi” again where Bhagavan had clearly indicated the answer I was looking for in his own words. The answer was in “Talk 95”, page 91 of this book. I cried out of his grace. The first month after the experience was really fearsome because of the void and without subsequent experiences. By Bhagavan’s grace, I got the second experience as well. With Bhagavan’s guidance, I clearly come to know the next steps I need to take. I started writing blog – http://abideinthetruth.blogspot.com/
I have been able to experience the true and peace most of the times. However, I could see that sometimes I slip out of this state. As Bhagavan indicated, it is not complete yet, until the experience becomes permanent.
I am sure as Bhagavan took through the steps from the beginning to the experience and after it, by many different ways, HE will guide the rest of the journey towards the liberation.
I prostrate Bhagavan for all the grace bestowed towards me. HIS grace is always present, may it guide all of us.
Anonymous, my point was I think misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting that one be uncritical, "dumb down" or close one's eye. I think I was more approaching it from the opposite. If I read something negative about someone. An 'expose' piece. First off, is what they are saying true? Are there other interpretations of the facts? And is their interpretation necessarily correct? What are their motivations? Were they writing this to warn people, as an attempt at an objective, unbiased piece, were they writing it to bring down a respected icon? Were they writing it to make themselves feel more important? Were they writing, because it excited them the idea of scandle about someone who is saintly? Were they spurned in some way by the person, and this is in their minds their attempt to get even? I could even ask what are your motivations for caring, for valueing these negative assessments of people considered by others as saints. Then I guess, none of this even deals with, what relevance does it have to me, and what I'm trying to do with my life? I will say, that in my own experience, most negative op-ed, expose pieces I have seen as of late, tend to be stuff that on further investigation turn out to be pretty far off. And stuff that is positive, and pro-active, tends to be more dead on. Within Ramana's teachings, if someone were a jnani, a true saint in terms of the Self, such as Ramana and Ramakrishna, and others, I would guess their lives, and their enlightenment would be pretty elusive to an empirical assessment, and that many of the things a jnani does will be bewildering to someone who expects a jnani to behave this way or that way.
hello Ravi,
thank you for the insight.
you have rounded off by saying "Yet,it is useful not to dismiss this yearning but to give it the free play to deepen.Just do not let others know."
kindly elaborate on the "free play" and "do not let others know" parts.
sincerely - R p
hello Ramesh,
thank you for the thoughts and sharing your experience.
you have mentioned "The devotees who express tears may very well be in different levels in terms of spiritual maturity. Nevertheless, at any level, the devotee is in the right step towards the spiritual goal."
grateful to hear about being on the right path but miles to go and reach Bhagavan :-)
Ramesh, it really shows!
an incident this morning about Bhagavan's unsurpassable, unending, unlimited grace.
being amavasya, was doing tarpanam for my father. the priest has been coming for the past year or so but only today did i feel like engaging him in small talk, asking him where he studied for which he replied Vizhupuram.
probably he was waiting for me to open up and moot the talk and without waiting for a second he asked me if i was a regular to Ramanasramam. replying in the affirmative i immediately fed my idiotic ego and asked him if he had seen me there which he negated and said he made the connection after seeing the many Bhagavan pictures in the house. then he added that his father is the chief priest doing poojai at Bhagavan's shrine. again upon asking he said father's name is Balu and his name is Venkata.
it is like Bhagavan saying "I am taking care by sending the son of the person who does poojai for Me". feel so blessed and humbled. how can can i not cry?
I have started a new 'Open Thread'. Can you all continue your discussions there since I have found in the past that these threads start malfunctioning once the posts get close to a thousand?
It wouldn't work. It didn't work, even when I kind of new the people, let alone just some stranger. So... yes, i don't look forward to being an older man, that has never been with anyone. But it's not my fault that I'm mildly autistic. I can't help it. Do you have any actual advice? Like what action to take? Ones that would work? How did you end up in relationships? How did that occur for you?
On the issue of becoming a spiritual teacher. I think, honestly, from all I've been exposed to within these teachings. (laugh). Here is what I think is the best approach of when it is a good idea to take up spiritual teaching. (laugh). Never, if there is still one who can decide to do something like that. My favorite band had a great lyric on this... "It's best to just do things and see how it goes, for no-one can tell you what nobody knows".
I don't think it's a good idea, to attempt, or practice Self-inquiry, with the aim of one day being a spiritual teacher a guru. If one is doing it for that reason, I would guess they are doing it for the wrong reason. The reason to practice Self-inquiry is to know one's self, to find the true source of happiness and abide in it. More generally, I think it's unhealthy to want to be in a position of power over others in anyway. If someone is seeking to become a spiritual teacher, they are seeking power over others, and that is unhealthy.
As far as letting desires fester...Yeah, it's probably a good idea not to, maybe. But also, setting out with selfish aims in regards to others, is maybe always a bad idea. I already covered that, in my conclusions in how to approach the issues I've dealt with, which were related to asperger's autism. As I already specified, I wasn't purposely letting desire fester. I think it would be dangerous, to take up a more aggressive, manipulative strategy. and better, to follow the advice of Annamalai Swami as quoted by Jupes and that the difficulties were given to me by Bhgavan to turn my mind inward toward the Self. Since it has served that purpose of making me earnestly try to understand and practice Self-inquiry, I think it is serving that purpose. And I experience sometimes a bliss transcending the need for sex. Which is different then letting it fester. But again, as I said, anonymous' point of view reminds me of people I've known who sexually assaulted people, who did not understand consent, who viewed sexuality as a mere going to the store to buy cherries. And I think it probably doesn't need too much more of a response then that.
The conclusion I've drawn, from what Ramana Maharshi and other realized sages have said about sexuality. Is that, one doesn't repress teh sexual need, or abstain. And doing those things would not be helpful. But at the same time, from everything I know from there teachings. They would not be into taking up a manipulative strategy to have sexual experiences, or to be disrespectfully aggressive in pursuit. So I think the ultimate strategy in terms of the teachings of Maharshi, in relation to the issues I have with Asperger's, is much of what i've already been doing. To inquire, to be in bliss, be in harmony. If an opportunity arises, ask that person to hang out. If I'm hanging out with some cool, hot person, tell them I like them, or want to kiss them, whatever. The earnest, honest approach! It may not work for end results because of being on the autism spectrum, but it is the best, most honest strategy, I think.
Anonymous/hj/Friends,
Interesting discussion-Essentially this is related to what is called Swadharma-That the Dharma of one however lofty is no good for another.Each individual is unique and has to develop along his own path.
The other theme is that of the age old discussion on Destiny and Freewill.hj has taken up the position that everything is predestined and try what one may,things will take their course(Predestined).Anonymous has contested this and rightly so.
This is what Swami Vivekananda has said:
"We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. If what we are now has been the result of our own past actions, it certainly follows that whatever we wish to be in future can be produced by our present actions; so we have to know how to act."
This is it.Essentially if we can bind ourselves in knots ,we can free ourselves as well by untying them.This is where Predestination and Freewill come into play.Say,if there are 10 Knots to be untied,the act of untying would follow an EXACT sequence in the reverse order-so this is so to say,predestined.This does come about by exercising the Freewill in that direction.
On the other hand if one exercises the Freewill in adding to the knots,and calls it Destiny ,it is pure Fatalism.
We may thus say that at every point in time man is free to exercise his choice to whatever results that he wants-not that the results would materialise immediately.The element of time has to be factored in.Looked at from another perspective,we may say that the previous choices that he made limits his present choice.
Yet it is not at all that straight jacketed as all that.It is not at all uncommon for a Debaucher to become a Great Saint while a virtuos person may continue to be a virtuous seeker and an also ran!
-----------------------------------
considering all this,I would say,Vivekananda's advise says it all-is the most rational and energising.
Namaskar.
Anonymous, I guess you were giving yourself advice, though it applies to all of us!
I was thinking about how Ramana had the death experience, and how throughout my life, death has loomed. I've never felt free of death, that somehow death has to be dealt with in a certain way. And alot of the most adharmic people, who are obsessed with what can be gotten here, and power and doing whatever they can, no matter how dishonest to succeed in this world, seem, even if they would pretend to be somehow religious, unconcerned, or unaware of death. In my teens, I was really terrified of death, it seemed to like disprove everything that everybody says. How can anything be true, if we die? If it doesn't last? And that sense, that feeling, seems to lend itself to surrender to death even while alive, and that seems to lend itself very strongly to falling into being interested in Maharshi's tesachings. I mean, that is how Ramana became Realized. That almost seems to be the gate that seperates the unrealized from the realized. The realized have surrendered everything, because of the fact that it doesn't endure. Even while wanting these things like romance, I'm all the while aware, that it's not worth if, if it isn't sustainable, if I have to somehow promote, perpetuate or engage in an ego, that won't last. If I have to lie, and manipulate to survive. There is kind of a part of me, that I only want to engage in what is compatable with total surrender, Bliss, because I'm not attached to what cannot last, which just causes worry, and suffering. That's why for happiness, it seems like this kind of diving into, or total facing of death seems necessary. and inquiry is that. You disregard until there is only what cannot die, because it wasn't born. And be that, always. Makes total sense, and a clarity grows as to what is attuned to that and not attuned to that. Because it's not inactivity, but there are certainly actions that require engaging myself as an ego, becoming an ego, believing in my ego. And in that sense, i think it can be trickier, O.K, how to survive. Now, look at Papaji's life, I mean he was highly successful, but in a state of total surrender, he was doing what came to him to be done, he wasn't engaging himself as an ego, he wasn't engaging himself in something insincere in in-authentic, he was in pure Being always. If the natural thing, was rescuing his family from teh Punjab, it happened. If it was working at that mining company, it happened. But he didn't engage himself as or with something false. He didn't pretend to be something he's not. It's really instructive.
Ravi,
One of my favorite quotes on the subject of choosing comes from Living By the Words of Bhagavan. I've posted this here before but will do so again:
Annamalai Swami: Before we came into this life all the incidents of our life were predestined: where we have to live, what acts we have to perform, etc. If we desire anything other than our prarabdha, that which was already destined for us, we cannot attain it.
Questioner: So there is no point in planning future projects. It is better to live with what comes, day by day.
AS: According to one's prarabdha, the efforts which are necessary and which have to happen will arise in one's mind.
Q: So we only think that we have choices. The sense of choice is not real.
AS: Correct! All the difficulties that we experience in life have been given to us by Bhagavan in order to turn the mind toward the Self.
~~~~~
Yes, I think we are conditioned to believe we have choices, and I would agree that there is a sense of freedom in not having to choose, as in the case of your responding to your wife's question about what to cook.
Tolle talks a bit differently about choice from what I've said here, but in some ways it is similar. He does say that there is no choice when one is run by the mind and that without consciousness you have no choice.
Annamalai Swami also said that "in every moment you only have one real choice: to be aware of the Self or to identify with the body and the mind."
To even be at a point where one can make the choice between awareness of the Self and identification with the body and mind requires a high degree of consciousness. The connection between what Tolle and A.S. are saying is 'consciousness'. Consciousness is the key.
Self-inquiry is the most helpful tool, ironically, that I've found socially, I probably wouldn't do it, if it was just to become enlightened. But that is kind of similar to becoming a martial arts master at life. Some here, may think Self-inquiry is a rote mental method, who is doing this? But I know from success at it, sometimes, that is not the case. Who is this who is...? question, is as I've said, pointing to that the thinker, the person, is unreal. That person, is almsot like a parasite, that i'm putting my energy into, when it could be used more efficiently. It really goes back to that martial arts metaphor. I use Self-inquiry for the effortlessness, and fluidity. I may still have to jump off the diving board so to speak, take the risk at various points. But I want it to be informed risks. Lets say I see a woman that I think is beautiful. Yes, lets face it sexuality and romance have an element of shallowness to it. But I see that she has an annoyed look on her face, or she's deep into studying. I could sit next to her and talk to her, but that could be really annoying, and she doesn't know me, that could even make her feel unsafe. So what do I do? I wait until there is a sign of interest. Waiting to see how a situation escalates. Most of the interaction requires that sensitivity, that psychicness. That is what Self-inquiry helps with, so I'm clear and undistracted. i don't know when an opportunity is going to arise, so thinking about it, when it isn't happening, makes it so I'm not open when it does happen. But if I abide in egoless bliss, receptiveness, then when something happens I'm ready for it. And I'm present with it. Not to mention, the Self is where love is. Why did those thousands of people flock to be around Maharshi, because he abided as the Self, he was love itself, he was happiness and contentment itself. It shows that, people like that. they like people who are self-sufficiently happy. The least successful thing I've done is taken risks out of desperation. I think the chances are so low of success. Because it so unattractive to be in a state of desperation. But when someone is glowing in their own happiness. So I try to stay there, glowing in my own happiness. Even though I may be frustrated at 31 never having a girlfriend. I try to forget that, I try to forget the past. Now, another aspect is, there is something supernatural about Self-inquiry. I mean, Papaji and Maharshi both have said that God is in the absence of I. And Maharshi said, "God never forsakes one who has surrendered". In my experience, like that woman I told I had a crush on her via e-mail. Recently, a few weeks ago, I was in a much more egoless state, and she called my name, and started talking to me, and then said that she wanted to go to coffee with me again. The odds seemed slightly unlikely for me being in teh right place and the right time, to run into her. So I guess what I'm saying, is, literally, the world isn't real like we think it is, and so abiding as the Self, inquiring so that I am in a state of bliss, that is natural, there is some element that real magical things can happen I guess. Ego, it becomes clear, really has nothing going for it, even in terms of worldly success. yes, anonymous, I do think the people who are the most successful, the genius' people remember for centuries, the power of their creativity, came from the Self. So...I don't know if i'll ever be successful in the romantic sphere, but I do know that Self-inquiry, abiding in Bliss itself, as that itself, is the best thing I could be doing for myself even in terms of success in this endeavor. Maybe, my failures have been a blessing in that regard, realizing how much more power is in egolessness, then ego.
To anonymous, several thing. First thing, you had said that grace, like things in the world is something that comes to us when it wants, it's not something we can choose. I have to say in my own experience, if what I think is grace is grace, that is not true. Grace is a choice. Because I'm the one whose seperating myself from grace. I'm the one creating the non-grace. So it is within my power to stop doing that. I understand grace as effulgent happiness, which is natural. I cause my own sorrow, by putting my happiness on the world. That's why I keep saying inquiry is not escapist. The closest I have come to romance, has been since practicing inquiry, I've had alot more flirtatious interactions since. So it isn't escapist. Inquiry to me, and abiding as the Self, as clearing away the causes of sorrow, that is what inquiry is. It's not a rote method. Who is thinking this? who is feeling this? No, I don't think so. I was going to mentnion, people are more drawn in to those who don't want something from them. Some of my problems in the past were from being in a state of depression, or desperation, or craving, and people, women, whoever pick up on that and are not interested. It's almost psychic.
LMM; One of the biggest struggles of all is in giving up this
notion of 'having a Christian heart' ....of being a helper
or healer....of being my brothers' keeper. And yet, my
observations (of my self and others) show me that this
'compassionate' intent can not only create considerable
sorrow and suffering and above all delusion.
Who am I to be helping others (the lost ones?) I'm doing it cause I'm on a mission, I'm special, I'm chosen for bigger things etc etc!
I've had that response too! I think when I was young and first read Rumi I thought that. I remember someone telling me that Rumi was a love poet from Afghanistan (laugh). I actually bought a Rumi book right after I started Self-inquiry, and just after I was becoming obsessed with Ramana Maharshi's teachings. And it was clear to me at that point, that much of what he was saying was the same thing. When he says Beloved, i.e. the Self, or God! It's kind of lifting one's vision above the relative. He actually in some of the poems, seems to me to kind of play down, or deride, human romance, and sexuality in comparison to the divine. There are things, some of his analogies are similar to Maharshi's analogy. The river/ocean analogy. That the Beloved, or the divine, or Allah, is like an ocean, and one dives into the ocean, instead of going after sense objects. There is one poem where he says burn down the house to get the buried treasure, and with the buried treasure one can buy a thousand houses. I thought that was an analogy, that burning down one's own ego, the treasure there is so much more vast and worthwhile then the puny things one can get as an ego. Surrender is a big theme throughout Rumi's poetry as well. There was one about not fearing whether you will eat, that the bread runs away from you, only because it can sense your lack of self-denial. So there's alot of good stuff. Maybe Rumi was a jnani!
Here is a beautiful excerpt from Practicing the Power of Now, by Eckhart Tolle:
The Power to Choose
Choice implies consciousness--a high degree of consciousness. Without it, you have no choice. Choice begins the moment you disidentify from the mind and its conditioned patterns, the moment you become present.
Until you reach that point, you are unconscious, spiritually speaking. This means that you are compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways according to the conditioning of your mind.
Nobody chooses dysfunction, conflict, pain. Nobody chooses insanity. They happen because there is not enough presence in you to dissolve the past, not enough light to dispel the darkness. You are not fully here. You have not quite woken up yet. In the meantime, the conditioned mind is running your life.
Similarly, if you are one of the many people who have an issue with their parents, if you still harbor resentment about something they did or did not do, then you still believe that they had a choice--that they could have acted differently. It always looks as if people had a choice, but that is an illusion. As long as your mind, with its conditioned patterns, runs your life, as long as you are your mind, what choice do you have? None. You are not even there. The mind-identified state is severely dysfunctional. It is a form of insanity.
Almost everyone is suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment you realize this, there can be no more resentment. How can you resent someone's illness? The only appropriate response is compassion.
If you are run by your mind, although you have no choice you will still suffer the consequences of your unconsciousness, and you will create further suffering. You will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The suffering thus created will eventually force you out of your unconscious state.
You cannot truly forgive yourself or others as long as you derive your sense of self from the past. Only through accessing the power of the Now, which is your own power, can there be true forgiveness. This renders the past powerless, and you realize deeply that nothing you ever did or that was ever done to you could touch even in the slightest the radiant essence of who you are.
When you surrender to what is and so become fully present, the past ceases to have any power. You do not need it anymore. Presence is the key. The Now is the key.
Since resistance is inseparable from the mind, relinquishment of resistence - surrender - is the end of the mind as your master, the imposter pretending to be "you," the false god. All judgment and all negativity dissolve.
The realm of Being, which has been obscured by the mind, then opens up.
Suddenly, a great stillness arises within you, an unfathomable sense of peace.
And within that peace there is great joy.
And within that joy there is love.
And at the innermost core there is the sacred, the immeasurable. That which cannot be named.
Anonymous,
You have asked about the benefits of listening to classical music.Glad to know that you enjoy listening to Baroque period music.I will try to put some thoughts on what you have asked for.
Meantime ,I will refer you to the Following link in this BLOG where I have posted Regarding the Bhakti Approach and Classical Music.Pl visit:
http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2008/07/open-thread-on-vichara.html?commentPage=2
Please look for my post addressing Jupes dated August 13,2008 10:55 PM and the subsequent posts.
More Later.
Namaskar.
I remember an interesting exchange between Papaji and a woman in Lucknow. Papaji was talking about the beloved (god) and the woman responded
by talking about her husband. They were speaking at cross purposes. The woman couldn't understand where Papaji was coming from. He started to gently tease her but she still didn't grasp the divine input. Some of the devotees laughed but others looked a little embarrassed.
It shows you have to be ripe to even understand a verbal discussion with a guru.
As Ramana says "as you are so is the world."
hj
there are things Ravi, you say, that strike me incorrect about inquiry. I'm not saying you are wrong. But I don't think inquiry is escapism. Because in my experience it is the I that alienates. And that is the thing, with my dating problems, never having a girlfriend, all that stuff, which I've never figured out. In my twenties my approach, was well, I'll just do whatever it takes externally. and that didn't work, it didn't have the sensitivity. As far as responsibility. I don't feel like that is the issue, of wanting to shirk responsibility. All I know, is that my peers date, and I don't. I have no idea why. I have no idea why I spend alot of my time alone. It's not by choice. Inquiry, which I don't think is exactly escapism, has been the one thing I've found that has worked. When I say bliss, I mean stability and equilibrium. That's what I'm looking for. I think they are connected. When I'm in bliss, I'm also in stability and equilibrium. I'm open, and truly heart to heart speech is going on. That is why for instance, taking a situation, this woman who works at the cafe, who gives me a glowing look even when she isn't working. And seemed really excited when I asked her a question. Inquiry, gives me the sensitivity to be truly intimate with someone, and I don't mean in a romantic or sexual way. I may want that. But the sensitivity seems so important. And that's why either gross courage, like asking them out, telling them I have a crush on them. Or purely being sensitive don't seem to work. And
It seems like most people really, do not have those kinds of relationships start except through circles of friends. And then...I don't know I've really struggled with it for a long time, with no success. I've taken some courageous actions, but nothing has come of it.
I believe proselytising has been banned in Tamil Nadu. I don't know about other parts of India.
What is Quo Vadis doing in Tiruvannamalai? It's run by the Lutheran church and has an outreach program of interfaith dialogue. Is that just a cover for Christian proselytising?
Do they have a hidden agenda and if so, what is it?
I have had great loving moments with people I've had crushes on, or was interested in. I mainly haven't had relationships, kissing, sex, marriage any of it. Partly because of difficulties. What you guys Ravi and the previous person who posted makes alot of sense. It isn't about end results. And it is about accepting one's prarabdha karma. For me, that would be, inquiring abiding in Bliss(in that itself, as that itself) as much as possible, let interactions happen naturally. If there is an obvious opportunity for a cool experience take it, or do something about it. I've never really understood the religious thing about why sex is an issue for people. For me, sex (and relationship) has been an issue, because of not having it, and wanting it. (which maybe is a more rare issue, surprisingly to me) Having people seem interested, and it not turning into anything. So the issue, is longing, regret, not knowing how to approach interactions, not being able to figure it out. That still bothers me. So then I have no choice, it's like my happiness, the only happiness I could find is through inquiry. Maharshi said one should not say "should I do this, or should I do that?" But leave it all up to that power. That is often the approach, but sometimes, maybe i get flirted with, and then I'm like maybe I should do something about it, what? Then confusion, being trapped in the past, all the things that seemed like they could have become something that didn't. Because of that one, one might think someone who lived a healthy, boisterous life would be closest to Realization. I'm not sure, because sometimes people who have been most successful at fulfilling their desires, and definitely sexual desires, can be the most arrogant, and the least introspective, it seems like. Not to mention, because they projected the desire, the objectification, it keeps them in their own imagination, and arrogant about other people. And my path, has led me to things like Maharshi and inquiry. So I guess, I'm saying, it's not so straight forward. People who have alot more ease at success in thsi world. It's a violent world, so they learn it's violent ways, and then are not humble. They are competative, aggressive, dishonest, it seems sometimes. Most people I know, are not judging them, considerably more that way then me. I of course have fallen into sub-cultures that are more kind. But most of the people, have not been humbled, as much as I have, and so you know have all sorts of opinions about the world, about people, gossip. And those are things, I don't really do so much. Because I've been really reduced down, and forced to give up my arrogance to a large extent. And so in some ways, I unintentionally live a more renounced life, and am I can honestly say, without hesitation, closer to enlightenment then anyone I know in my circle of friends. (laugh). No doubt about this, because I'm the only one whose trying to dissolve my ego. The only people I know are myself, people on this website, and enlightened sages, I've either maybe met or read about.
While that makes sense. What about for people with social difficulties, that make forming amorous relationships much more difficult. Like, personal detail, I've never had, and may never have an intimate, physical relationship with another, because autism spectrum issues. I haven't ruled it out, and I still make an attempt, still have asked people out. I wouldn't think Bhagavan would have advised indulging in depression, or despair, or negative thoughts, or obssessively wanting what isn't available, or lamenting disabilities and conditions. And inquiring, and not being the doer, and just seems more tricky. Part of the reason I kept deepening in spirituality, was to help perhaps eventually form relationships with people, be more open, non-verbally. To be quite honest, hopefully not inappropriately, yeah, dating and sex, are a natural part of being a living organism. And I don't think inquiry is about going against nature in that way. But if your brain, doesn't work as well in some way... Desire, and then depression, they are so connected. So it's tricky. The only thing I can come up with is inquire, disidentify completely, negate thinking about what isn't happening now, and if in the moment, something is able to happen, go with it. Today at a cafe, I can tell when people are interested in me, maybe, and inquiry seems to heighten that, it seemed like there was some interest from this woman that worked there. I just kept the inquiry up, tried to stay in as blissful, of samadhi, not thinking as possible. I don't know. Why didn't Maharshi and some of his devotees have sex, why did maharshi try to keep annamalai swami from thinking about sex? So maybe the question is about thinking about it. Just like food shouldn't be obssessed about or thought about. It's trick though. I have to willfully eat, if I don't desire food. I have no idea in practice. I of course, probably like every other human would like to have fall in love, be romantic, all that. I have no idea how to approach it. But for sure, lamenting, or being depressed, is something to be prevented, I think. Maybe not repressed, but not indulged in.
I think inquiry, and earnest spirituality makes it harder to reject people and what they say, with a walled-off closed mind. But then when something is investigated, it may not resonate with a deeper, happier integrity. And that's the thing Ramana and his real Truth, has awakened to me a sense of bliss, happiness that I carry with me wherever I go. And I'm learning that things that make you feel worse, are usually not true. Truth makes one happier.
thank you Sengtsan and Huang Po for bringing us back to the path
do not hestitate to remind us another 10 000x, we will surely need it
This may not make sense to most of the people here, it may not even be true. I have no idea. So this Christian preacher. I corresponded with him as mentioned. He is someone, I viewed as a total nut, even more recently, when I would see him, I felt so much wiser for my Self-inquiry, thought I understood spirituality so much deeper than his dogmatic, bigoted, ideas. Now, i am not so sure. Today, he sent me two e-mails, I can't say they were vitrolic in hindsight, but they seemed that way, threatening. And I so vehemently disagreed, abhored what he was saying, and I felt pretty blissful that it just goes to show that what he is saying is wrong. The thing is, and I can't explain this to people who have not had this experience. I think it is related to the Self, but I don't know how. The best I can describe it, is it is like a psychoactive, psychadelic experience, tripping. It is what I experienced throughout my early twenties. My experiences with Nome were like that, where e-mail, or in person, it was like there was this feeling in my chest, I can't explain it. But then I would be totally psychologically opened up, and things would be trippy again. No matter what Nome said, he opened up my psyche just by contact with him. Blissful, but potentially a little frightening, and perceptually overwhelming. Well, I get that from these responses from this teacher. No Christian proselytizer has ever had this effect on me. That is why I took his letters seriously, and wanted to see if I could agree with him, if there was someway to compromise with his view. Though I can't accept that all other religions including advaita are essentially satanic. I'm sure it's not true. I normally would never even entertain that any of what this guy is saying, except that to some degree interactions with him, fit with the description of tiger's jaws, or the lion appearing in the dream. I find him intensely frightening. I don't find most dogmatic Christians intimidating. Or worry when they tell me Yah is going to shake up your world. Earlier today, I was assuming again, that well maybe there is some truth there, but it's also contaminated with fascism, dogmatism, and untruth, essentially what Anonymous was saying. I was blissful, even though he told me Yah would rebuke me for my wickedness. When he e-mailed me that, my world was so opened up in that way I described with Nome that, I was really worried some supernatural punishment was about to befall me, but then started to feel just radiantly blissful when none did. I've talked to proselytizing Christians, and in the last few years, and normally I've felt like I could run mental laps around them. Anyway, I wrote him about how he's wrong, his attitude is fascist, and Yah does not rebuke me! But just now, as I was walking through campus I saw him laughing kindly and talking to all these foreign students, and I peered at him curiously, and tried to sneak on past, and laughing with these new friends, or devotees he's behind me, oblivious to me, he doesn't know I'm the one I corresponded with. And there was that feeling of intimidation, lion in the dream again, that feeling in my chest, the waking-dream world opening up in that 'trippy' way, and immense peace. When I asked if he was enlightened, he said that he was mere dust, but he also says that he only says what Yahweh gives him to say. So again, for that reason, I'm wondering, well maybe he is a jnani, but does that mean what he is saying is true? Does that mean Christ is the only way? I just don't know. Anonymous don't respond, laugh, you are too close minded on this topic.
Peter/Murali,
"what do you mean Ravi? Ramana often used these types of directives."
Please read my comment in that context.Why did not Sri Bhagavan suggest that question to Paul Brunton at that moment?Why should he hold before him the Goal so Glorious?
A Weak mind will only try to flee,to 'escape' and sometimes self denial('I' is 'unreal'and hence all that happens to the 'I' is unreal,All the Unhappiness around is unreal etc) is a convenient escape.A Weak mind cannot Pray;it can only petition.It may take recourse to 'social work',trying to solve other's woes,etc.Thus the escape can be through any of the professed paths-Jnana,Bhakti or Karma Yoga.
It is only a Strong mind that is fit for Sadhana and a cheerful mind(Satvic)is a basic Requirement.
Murali,What you have expressed is also the same.With Faith ,the mind becomes strong and is able to better weather the storm.
Self Enquiry does require a Satvic Mind.In the company of Great souls this is more easily accomplished.More than anything that one does,it is the receptivity to this Presence that does the job.
Namaskar.
"A ignorant person would have come out with a cliched-'Find out who is dejected'.This sort of a stupid stance...."
It's very easy to imitate the kinds of things Ramana said. It's very, very difficult to equal his Realization. That's why I don't waste my time trying to imitate the things he said. I pursue as ardently as possible the actual Realization, that his words point to. You can't fake it. Do I just have to go "who is dejected?", and then Realization happens? Or worse fill my sentences with Knowing and Beingness-lol It's obviously deeper, subtler, and way more profound then that. I would never have been exposed to Ramana Maharshi, let alone inquiry, let alone attempted it ardently, if I had a mentality, where i so easily was convinced I already knew. Even still...I don't assume I know. I'm burdened with worries. If what I'm doing doesn't get free of the grossest forms of mental suffering, and worrying, (selfishness) no matter what rote method I may be pursuing, I know I'm not doing what Ramana talked about. So I adjust, I adapt, I question, I look to sources of wisdom, and as much as possible am open minded. If when I was at Society of Abidance in Truth, I had of believed my initial impression, went with that, if I didn't at all have a listening (though critical) spirit, I would never have been exposed to Maharshi. Fortunately I did. So then I read Who am I? and recognized that this was like the key to it all, this was such a powerful thing I had stumbled upon. I knew that the wisdom I was drinking, as I was reading Talks, was not something I could just imitate by repeating the words, pretending I understand. And anyone who does that, doesn't grasp the brilliance, the glory of his teachings. They think it's just another stale philosophy on the bookshelves, pretentious knowledge. And i can understand how many people (who have never had their illusions shaken), may be able to do that. Go, oh, "who am I?" "whose dejected?" repeat corny phrases like that to people, and consider themselves an advaita expert, maybe impress women or something. Advaita, in my experience, opinion is the full Realization, and the attempt, and the grace leading to it. It has no life apart from that. Seriously if you want a philosophy to be pretentious about, don't waste your time with advaita, read Nietzsche and Sartre, become an existentialist, go to your local coffee shop. Those who do not yet, in this lifetime, have any earnestness, are doing it for those reasons, do not know what they are missing? I may not have dissolved my egoity completley, but I can tell you, that even the earnest attempt to Realize this teaching is so much more glorious then the most glorious experience in this world, and infact contains every sought after, meaningful thing one could experience. Once I read that Who am I? I was like this is the key to it all. The key to it all.
Vernon Howard
“If I don’t have a compulsive need to appear successful, what do I care if you make more money than I? If I have no unhealthy attraction to shallow social functions, does it bother me if I get no invitations? If I have freedom from fearful dependency upon persons and objects, will I be pained if you no longer wish to be my friend? If my artificial needs fall away through self-insight, do I need to think about these things at all?
No. If my false sense of “I” has dissolved, who is there to suffer or complain?”
We humans exhibit all kinds of
behaviours. They range from hate filled facism to love filled
compassion. From scripture thumping fundamentalists to
incomprehensible mystics.
Michael
Anonymous/Friends,
With regard to 'lie' and 'Truth'-An Excerpt from 'My Master':
This is the tremendous thirst that seizes the human heart. Later on, this very man said to me, "My child, suppose there is a bag of gold in one room, and a robber in the next room; do you think that the robber can sleep? He cannot. His mind will be always thinking how to get into that room and obtain possession of that gold. Do you think then that a man, firmly persuaded that there is a Reality behind all these appearances, that there is a God, that there is One who never dies, One who is infinite bliss, a bliss compared with which these pleasures of the senses are simply playthings, can rest contented without struggling to attain It? Can he cease his efforts for a moment? He will become mad with longing." This divine madness seized the boy. At that time he had no teacher, nobody to tell him anything, and everyone thought that he was out of his mind. This is the ordinary condition of things. If a man throws aside the vanities of the world, we hear him called mad. But such men are the salt of the earth. Out of such madness have come the powers that have moved this world of ours, and out of such madness alone will come the powers of the future that are going to move the world.'
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
Anonymous/Friends,
"Prayers would be unnecessary --
every utterance and thought would be a prayer.
Meditation would be redundant --
every step and gesture -- every movement
and stillness
would be meditation."
Friend,seeking is necessary as long one as one feels the seperation.What you are referring to is where seeking has ended.
Sadhana is needed until then.
An Excerpt from 'My Master':
That is what my Master found, and he then set about to learn humility, because he had found that the one idea in all religions is, "not me, but Thou", and he who says, "not me", the Lord fills his heart. The less of this little "I" the more of God there is in him. That he found to be the truth in every religion in the world, and he set himself to accomplish this. As I have told you, whenever he wanted to do anything he never confined himself to fine theories, but would enter into the practice immediately. We see many persons talking the most wonderfully fine things about charity and about equality and the rights of other people and all that, but it is only in theory. I was so fortunate as to find one who was able to carry theory into practice. He had the most wonderful faculty of carrying everything into practice which he thought was right.
Now, there was a family of Pariahs living near the place. The Pariahs number several millions in the whole of India and are a sect of people so low that some of our books say that if a Brahmin coming out from his home sees the face of a Pariah, he has to fast that day and recite certain prayers before he becomes holy again. In some Hindu cities when a Pariah enters, he has to put a crow's feather on his head as a sign that he is a Pariah, and he has to cry aloud, "Save yourselves, the Pariah is passing through the street", and you will find people flying off from him as if by magic, because if they touch him by change, they will have to change their clothes, bathe, and do other things. And the Pariah for thousands of years has believed that it is perfectly right; that his touch will make everybody unholy. Now my Master would go to a Pariah and ask to be allowed to clean his house. The business of the Pariah is to clean the streets of the cities and to keep houses clean. He cannot enter the house by the front door; by the back door he enters; and as soon as he has gone, the whole place over which he has passed is sprinkled with and made holy by a little Ganga water. By birth the Brahman stands for holiness, and the Pariah for the very reverse. And this Brahmin asked to be allowed to do the menial services in the house of the Pariah. The Pariah of course could not allow that, for they all think that if they allow a Brahmin to do such menial work it will be an awful sin, and they will become extinct. The Pariah would not permit it; so in the dead of night, when all were sleeping, Ramakrishna would enter the house. He had long hair, and with his hair he would wipe the place, saying, "Oh, my Mother, make me the servant of the Pariah, make me feel that I am even lower than the Pariah." "They worship Me best who worship My worshippers. These are all My children and your privilege is to serve them"--is the teaching of Hindu scriptures.'
-----------------------------------
To think 'I am nothing' is not the same thing as to truly feel 'I am nothing'.This is the difference between a 'lie' and 'Truth'.
Namaskar.
Losing M Mind says:
"I've felt weak - pathetic really, pretty much my entire life."
Well, as long as we have the ego we will feel like above very often. However, the following is what I always keep in mind when I am assailed by such thoughts. They are by Paul Brunton.
---------------------------
On another visit he finds me in a pessimistic mood. He tells
me of the glorious goal which waits for the man who takes to
the way he has shown.
“But, Maharshi, this path is full of difficulties and I am so
conscious of my own weakness,” I plead.
“That is the surest way to handicap oneself,” he answers
unmoved, “this burdening of one’s mind with the fear of failure
and the thought of one’s failings.”
“Yet if it is true — ?” I persist.
“It is not true. The greatest error of a man is to think that he
is weak by nature, evil by nature. Every man is divine and strong in his real nature. What are weak and evil are his habits, his
desires and thoughts, but not himself.”
His words come as an invigorating tonic. They refresh and
inspire me. From another man’s lips, from some lesser and feebler
soul, I would refuse to accept them at such worth and would
persist in refuting them. But an inward monitor assures me that
the Sage speaks out of the depth of a great and authentic spiritual
experience, and not as some theorising philosopher mounted
on the thin stilts of speculation.
---------------------------------
Ravi and friends: I am weak -- pathetic really.
If I were not:
I would always speak the truth from my heart.
I would speak to the wise essence of others
and not to the them that they know.
I would speak with an intonation
that shared the fullness of my being
instead of protecting and hoarding
what wealth made there lie.
Prayers would be unnecessary --
every utterance and thought would be a prayer.
Meditation would be redundant --
every step and gesture -- every movement
and stillness
would be meditation.
If I could be myself
which is not myself
but of whose wholeness I am a part
-- whose allness breathes me --
I would gather friends around me
and delight but not be lost
in their company.
Look! A bunch of personalities, a bunch of preferences, dislikes and
allegiances. we get personally involved, we mark around our bush and get territorial.
If you take 'it' seriously (yes in a light way, but seriously), then you get
indignant when somebody disagrees
or points out, or makes it difficult.We all want peace or bliss( are we bliss junkies?) because it is a precious thing.
You have felt its value.
Thinking all and sundry are Jnanis,
is enthusiastic but discrimination is needed. If you are in a fragile state you become prey to predators.
hj
I remember specifically in Talks that Maharshi did say that all great revelations, come from awareness of the Self. It struck me a true statement.
This is in response to another post (from another "Anonymous")--which post I cannot now locate: has it been removed?--suggesting that wo/men of great virtue, talent or genius are, no doubt, frequently jnanis as well (not that I take "jnanihood" to be some quality or substance that exists in addition to any manifest qualities of the apparent individual...).
Why this almost reckless urge to toss the label "jnani" like confetti onto those who, through natural gifts and/or apparent effort, earn places of distinction in the pantheon of those who have made great contributions to civilization? Throughout my acquaintanceship with the non-dual teachings of India, China, Japan, and elsewhere, the sages have consistently affirmed that realization or awakening has essentially nothing to do with manifestations of brilliance, ingenuity, power, healing or psychic abilities, etc., though of course these may manifest in the case of one who is no longer identified with or as the bodymind as they would in the case of one who is so identified.
There are obviously those among us who want their temporal heroes--the great and the mighty of this world--to be worshipped as great sages as well, but to me it smacks of idolatry, and in way accords with anything I have heard from those who have seen into their own nature. I welcome any quotes from authentic sages which assert that great human achievements can in any way be taken as reflective of liberation or awakening having "occurred" in the case of the achiever.
That's the thing about Nome and this Christian preacher (and I haven't made up my mind about him-lol). Both of them. Neither came in forms I would have wanted in a spiritual teacher. And it makes sense. That judge who went to Papaji, and asked how do I become enlightened like Janaka did? He said prostrate full length to the traffic cop at a nearby intersection. That was something that judge was unwilling to do, so he didn't, and he didn't become enlightened. With Papaji's vision, he probably saw exactly what someone could do and become enlightened, or realize their non-existence, surrender completely. Same with that other interaction. My point being, it seems that Self-Realization requires total sacrifice, and I think the reason most of us here are not Realized, is because we are still attached and unwilling to totally sacrifice ourselves. When we encounter a jnani, a sage who has totally surrendered themselves, it's not surprising that it would be in a form that challenges our notions. In a sense, maybe that's why Nome stopped responding, I don't know why, but one thing was I totally accepted everything he said, but wasn't really doing it, fully. This christian preacher, I really felt that feeling of a vice closing around my ego, that to some degree I am still unwilling to surrender to. If, anyone of us, decided, that we would totally surrender, the Lord would put us where he wants us, and we wouldnt' question it, we would no longer want things, we would no longer desire, we would no longer act on desire. That's a choice we could make, and we would be Self-Realized like that. The only thing holding us back, in some ways seems like a choice. We choose our attachments (what is called sin), over surrender.
. . .Yet my troubles are not ended
just find out WHO cares
I'm Nobody! Who are you?
Are you - Nobody - Too?
Then there's a pair of us!
Don't tell! they'd advertise - you know!
~ Emily Dickinson
.
... who is praying? and to whom? ...
If you are able to see it clearly this way then there is no other practise needed as to constantly dismiss all negative thoughts, feeling and doubts as products of the mind. This is the only practise, and someone who knows this knows the way - he needs no other practise and advise.
Yet experience shows that for most people doubts and ego thoughts are not that easy to overcome. In the meantime (until the rise of the forementioned understanding and practise) all valid means (prayer, self enquiry, devotion etc.) are allowed to subdue the enemy (I prefer to say: ...to bring the mind back home).
I recommend to all people in need of a clear description of this path the study of Advaita Bodha Deepika.
.
Anonymous, I would appreciate if in the future you would talk to me in a kinder way then your last couple messages, which I did find disrespectful and condescending. Regardless of your opinion on those matters. This forum benefits when we do treat eachother as equals and with kindness, I think.
I am closing the discussion on the spiritual status of American politicians. No more comments on this topic please.
Nandu, you wrote....."the result that one is 'missing' being in that wonderful space."
Is this what practice is about, being in a wonderful space? Dont get me wrong, like everyone, pleasant is my preference to. But being in a "wonderful space" is merely an occassional by-product of practice.
From what I have read, instead of trying to restore the "wonderful space", Ramana tends to respond to such concerns, "ask, who is it that has lost the 'wonderful space'?"
Once that is resolved, the former question is redundant.
........but not an easy practice i know!
this may not be the mood you refer to, but your post reminded me of the metaphor "dark night of the soul", perhaps a cousin of "dryness"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul
I need some clarification on this - if you have experienced this personally and are willing to share, it would be perfect.
Has anyone experienced a 'barren period' where one is still engaged in daily prayers and reflection, but somehow, the 'magic' seems to be missing?
To put it another way, thoughts of Bhagavan and Arunachala are still there strongly, but the 'feeling' is fighting with a lot of work-related matters. With the result that one is 'missing' being in that wonderful space.
If anyone has been through this, it would be helpful to know how one should 'handle' or 'not handle' it.
Thank you David for your "Remembering Nisargadatta Maharaj" interview. After studying Nisargadatta Maharaj for some time now, your insight makes him so much more "real"...
Anonymous, I think sadhana is hard enough without worrying about all the wrong things other people are doing. As Maharshi said, "Correcting oneself is correcting the world".
Nandu, that's an interesting Bhagavan story; I don't recall hearing it before. Do you remember where you read it? For myself, when I'm angry, I'm usually too overwhelmed by emotion to even think to hold onto the I-thought. I find it easier to do that when my mind is clear and unobstructed. It would be nice to learn more about how to use emotion as an aid in Self-enquiry. Emotion has certainly been a useful tool for me in other ways.
wonderfully, I'm starting to realize what robert adams is talking about. i recognize that experience lately as being my self-inquiry experiecne. There have been all sorts of things in my experiences over the last several yaers that have seemed extremely harrowing. But I realize lately, if I look at I, if I look into that I-notion, that is where my happiness is. Those who are really free, and standing above, and really free-spirited above great adversity. They are turned within. then all adversity is no adversity. Someone rejected me on facebook, maybe I was being annoying. I apologized if i had been annoying. But I looks for I, like a mirror, then all worries are no worries. Will I have a job? Will I get into grad school? Will I end up being homeless. Merged in the blissful Self will I as a jnani be anything but unhappy? No. There will only be bliss and empowerment like King Janaka with his palace burning down. but it will be found of course, that the responses to any situation are perefect, and harrowing situations will be revealed to be less then as harrowing as they woudl have been otherwise. I turn toward I, the sense of self to realize it is the effulgent Brahman Self. two youtube links. A band that I feel radiates with jnana, and wisdom. (loud and punk rock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW3ZsKNiDjE
A clip of Barack Obama visiting a resturant in a state where he is not popular today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITgFb6L1DDg
Mr Godman,
Do ou have any idea whether the last 4 missing chapters of "Advaita Bodha Deepika" have ever been found and published by anyone?
Swami Vivekananda, known in his pre-monastic life as Narendranath Datta, was born in an affluent family in Kolkata on 12 January 1863. His father, Vishwanath Datta, was a successful attorney with interests in a wide range of subjects, and his mother, Bhuvaneshwari Devi, was endowed with deep devotion, strong character and other qualities. A precocious boy, Narendra excelled in music, gymnastics and studies. By the time he graduated from Calcutta University, he had acquired a vast knowledge of different subjects, especially Western philosophy and history. Born with a yogic temperament, he used to practise meditation even from his boyhood, and was associated with Brahmo Movement for some time.
In America VivekanandaVivekananda’s mission was the interpretation of India’s spiritual culture, especially in its Vedantic setting. He also tried to enrich the religious consciousness of the Americans through the rational and humanistic teachings of the Vedanta philosophy. In America he became India’s spiritual ambassador and pleaded eloquently for better understanding between India and the New World in order to create a healthy synthesis of East and West, of religion and science.
In his own motherland Vivekananda is regarded as the patriot saint of modern India and an inspirer of her dormant national consciousness, To the Hindus he preached the ideal of a strength-giving and man-making religion. Service to man as the visible manifestation of the Godhead was the special form of worship he advocated for the Indians, devoted as they were to the rituals and myths of their ancient faith. Many political leaders of India have publicly acknowledged their indebtedness to Swami Vivekananda.
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