The most recent 'Open Thread' seems to be misbehaving: comments made in the last few days are not displaying, and the number of comments is clearly wrong. The same thing happened a few months ago. I am starting a new thread. If the old 'Open Thread' continues to misbehave and not show your recent posts, feel free to add them to this newly opened thread.
Sri Ramana Maharshi
Welcome
I propose to use this blog primarily to air my occasional musings on any matters relating to the life and teachings of Ramana Maharshi. There will also be occasional contributions about Arunachala, the sacred mountain where Sri Ramana spent all of his adult life.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
Articles and interviews on these topics can also be found on my site: www.davidgodman.org.
871 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 800 of 871 Newer› Newest»No larva can know it's goal
no seed it's flower,
no aspirant the form and nature
of that for which they long."
Hello David
I happened upon Be As You Are online and was so impressed I promptly bought a copy. I showed it to a friend of mine who is an old student of the 'Kyoto School' Zen teachers Masao Abe and Richard DeMartino. (If these names are unfamiliar to you, perhaps you know of D.T. Suzuki or possibly Shin'ichi Hisamatsu.)
Anyway, this friend of mine was greatly impressed, and happening upon your blog for the first time today, I thought that perhaps you might find the same kind of fruitful agreement with a great Kyoto School Zen essay; I reproduced a short extract of it here:
http://thedailyg.wordpress.com/the-hard-kernel-of-religion-and-spirituality/
Regards
Gordon
The wonderful little book "The guiding presence of Sri Ramana" by
K.K. Nambiar.
In the last page he mentions that Ramana continues to guide him in dreams, visions etc. He mentioned that it maybe the subject matter for another booklet.
Does anyone know if anything further was written by Nambiar?
hj
Friends,
wonderful reminiscences by devotees of Sri Bhagavan here:
http://ramana-smriti.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html
Namaskar.
I got and have been reading the Power of the Presence Part II, and it is a real gem. The stuff Muruganar, and Lakshmana Swami. The other stories, how Maharshi was an arbiter for the monkey tribes. It's just unparalleled.
My two favorite stories from Power of the Presence Part II, were the fountain pen story told by C. Yogi. There is something so profound about stories like that, because in a sense, I the reader even get guidance. I was thinking yesterday, Power of the Presence, Day by Day, Maharshi's Gospel are perhaps what I see as the necessary Maharshi canon at this point. The fountain pen story, I really was entranced by the red ink, there was something about how Maharshi's upsetting the egoic whims and aspirations of the devotees, would then arouse in me the most powerful visualizations. And then, of course the story about the Monkeys who came to protest the killing of one of their own, and Maharshi saying to the monkeys, "Everyone who is born dies, the man who harmed one of you will also die. You need not grieve". And then the guy got sick, and then his family heard the rumor and told him to lift the curse, and he says, I do not curse and I do not bless, but to please them gave them vibhuti which cured the man. You really can hardly find fiction that good. It would normally strain credulity to hear that kind of story about someone, but this isn't fiction.
So odd, that when I scrolled down on the open thread, the last two comments by David Godman were from that exact part.
e.e.cummings
If we know we are dreaming a dream within a dream, are we still
dreaming? If we dream we are Awake, is the wakefulness still
nothing but dream? If we know that we dream we can enjoy the
dream even when it is a nightmare, because you see its end even
before it begins. All manner of things are well. The words that
dance upon the page are nothing but a metaphor for the dance of
the body which in nothing but a metaphor for the dance of the
soul which is nothing but a metaphor for the the dance that is
Spirit. Spirit is. The universe is nothing but a vessel for
Spirit falling out of unity, peace and boredom into
multiplicity, diversity and suffering. How much difference is
there between harmony and conflict. None. The one rests on the
other. The inordinate preference of one over the other is a
preference for duality and suffering. Enjoy the dance when it
leads into the cool waters and over the burning coals!
Oh no! - it looks like I was blowing my own trumpet there; the 'great Kyoto School essay' I was referring to is not mine; it's the one I quote from at the end. Thought I'd best clarify that. :-)
My interest is this: Advaita people use the ancient terminology of 'Brahman' and whatnot, and DeMartino's essay was addressed to an audience of psychoanalysts and uses that kind of terminology. So I wonder whether David and the regulars here have the same sense I do of an explication of Self that really nails it. I've never come across quite such a complete and clear explanation of the plight of the self - I recommend to anyone to track it down second-hand online or find it in a library.
I think that modern scientific language from the realm of psychology can be much more precise and convincing to modern people; the problem is that it avoids metaphysics and does not delve into the nature of the so-called 'ground' of the true self. It has no language for this as psychology is about the mechanics and behaviours of the mind only, not its ultimate nature or place in the universe.
I would love to visit Arunachala sometime millions of years from now, when I might be able to afford to... can one come stay for extended retreats, and who is the principal religious teacher these days?
http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Stories/Chhaganlal%20Yogi/IV/IV.htm
This contains the whole Chhanganlal Yogi account from the Power of the Prresence Part II. This particular portion, if you start above the picture of Maharshi which starts a paragraph with "In 1908...", you will find the story about the monkeys.
thedailyg,
I went through your link.I find that article on Ego too verbose.Descriptions and Definitions fall way short of the mark when it comes to understanding fundamental problems in living.
The Ego sense is immediately visceral(not verbal);it is tangibly felt as a limitation and constriction.(I find that you have mentioned this in your post)
The understanding of the limitation is essentially the experiencing of it and not a definition of it however precise.It is this experiencing(pain)that leads to the longing for Freedom and the attainment.
The ancient texts have the wonderful power of 'Suggestion' that serves wonderfully well.They totally avoided the 'Feeding of the mind' with thoughts,descriptions and definitions.
-----------------------------------
The above is not to denigrate whatever you have found useful.It is only to point out like Sir Arthur Edington said-that when it comes to defining matter,man has not done better than his arboreal ancestor who knew that matter is something which when held onto,one would not fall!Ditto for all definitions .
NM: You must look away from the mind and its contents…..….Just look away from all that happens in your mind and bring it to the feeling ‘I am’………When the mind is kept away from its preoccupations, it becomes quiet. If you do not disturb this quiet and stay in it, you find that it is permeated with a light and love you have never known; and yet you recognize it as your own nature. Once you have passed through this experience you will never be the same person again.
Ravi, the problem is that not everyone who tries to do it 'viscerally' succeeds, so there's no foolproof formula.
It is important to know 'why' and 'what' you're doing; wrong intention will lead to wrong results. The Buddha was clear on this. The prelude to the Buddha's own awakening was an intellectual process terminating in the realisation that he'd hit a wall as far as the efficacy of reason is concerned. But the prelude WAS part of the necessary process (at least in his case).
People undertaking spiritual practice without thorough intellectual understanding always have some vague idea about what they're trying to achieve and how (if they practiced uncritically, robotically, they could go utterly off-track). So the intellect is always a factor. A person may seem to be doing the right thing by blindly following the prescription to constantly think "I am", but they may get it all wrong; they may, for example, be aiming to recapture some blissed-out state of mind they experienced once, and lack the intellectual understanding to know that this is a mistake. I don't think that Ramana was any more anti-intellectual than the Buddha; both addressed different types of seekers in different ways.
I don't think that what I wrote was very difficult, but yes, the DeMartino essay is extremely challenging. Like I say at the end of the article, I recommend it to those who have the prerequisites to understand it (probably only after several readings). It was originally written for professional psychoanalysts. I would never say it's a must for everyone.
DeMartino was a Zen practitioner and knew that Awakening is a visceral process; he goes into this in detail in the full essay (which is much longer than the little extract I reproduced). I chose the extract specifically to not be too long and to reinforce my point that it is important to know 'why' one practices religion, i.e. to know exactly what the problem of ego is.
David Godman writes with considerable scholarly understanding, so I am interested to know what he makes of DeMartino's explication. DeMartino's student, like I said, agrees with Godman, so naturally I wonder whether Godman agrees with DeMartino.
thedailyg,
"Ravi, the problem is that not everyone who tries to do it 'viscerally' succeeds, so there's no foolproof formula."
I will shorten this further by saying that -Not everyone who tries(whatever the means)succeeds.The Reason being-Not everyone truly wants to be free.Other than this,there is no Formula to Freedom.
"It is important to know 'why' and 'what' you're doing; wrong intention will lead to wrong results"
This is true in a way as far as Efforts and Result of Efforts go-to achieve something.This precisely becomes the problem -to think that 'awakening' is a Result to be achieved-That this can be ensured by a 'process' and for which 'why' and 'What' are necessary.
What is the effort required to just be oneself-This is the fundamental question that needs to be asked.The objective of all spiritual Efforts is to give up this incessant striving and hankering-What the Buddha called as Tanha -and Just Be.
I do not understand what you mean by saying -" The prelude to the Buddha's own awakening was an intellectual process terminating in the realisation that he'd hit a wall as far as the efficacy of reason is concerned"
The entire sadhana or Practice of The Buddha was purely experiential-He had a clear understanding of 'Pain'(Dukkha)and he had the further experiential understanding of the futility of all forms of Striving to end this 'pain' and finally the ending of all Striving in a supreme self sacrifice and self Abnegation,when he sat under the Bodhi tree with the firm resolve to give up his Life if he does not find The Light.There is nothing that can be called 'Intellectual' in all this.
It is this thirst for Freedom that is crucial and essential.
Yes,I agree that an intellectual understanding may help to get one started on the journey into oneself.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
thedailyg,
I went through your manifesto in your blog.
"To the extent that a religion wakes people up, that is a good religion. But a mature graduate should be able to stand alone and face the world without belief or creed, never looking to a book for pre-formed answers. The Zen and Taoist masters believed that true religion was not about adding more and more to one’s knowledge, but about stripping away everything false so that one can stand naked and perceive reality as it is, unfiltered by personal views.
True spirituality has no object content so cannot be named or described, but abundant wise ethics and wise motivation comes from true spirituality – it’s analogous to the space in which matter is born. If you are robotically dull and unaware, you cannot create anything or have high ethical aims – you are pure instinct and memory. But awareness is just mental space. All that stuff about ‘overcoming the ego’ is just an exercise to get you to realise that the ego is a pseudo-I – a looping computer program – whereas aware space is absolutely real, and the mother of all possibility. If there was no aware space, it would be impossible to experience a thought – there would be ‘nowhere’ for it to happen
Think it over if this seems interesting but confusing – it’s really not difficult intellectually; it’s more an issue of wrong habits of attention than of understanding a difficult concept. It’s like making someone realise that they’ve been searching for glasses that they were looking through all along".
-----------------------------------
I find that what you have expressed is quite the essence.
The Role of the intellect is to discern and discard the nonessential.
I would also add that the way of Attention(Way of Knowledge or Jnana)is not the only one-The way of attention aims to 'awaken'.
The way of Love and devotion is all about Blooming and Flowering.
The Way of psychic control(Yoga)is about harmonizing the energy of Living.
The triune paths of Knowledge,Love and Psychic control eventually coalesce,yet in their rudimentary beginnings they do involve a temperamental preference on the part of the aspirant.
A True teaching(What you have called as 'good Religion') is one that recognizes this temperamental difference in the aspirant and leads him along his natural curve of growth towards Realizing his true potential.
Namaskar.
Ravi,
May effortlessness arise in us all ASAP. :-)
G
dailyg
I went through the extract you posted a link to a few days ago, but not the whole essay.
I agree with the writer that the starting point for religious and spiritual endeavor has to be the individual 'I', the ego that affirms its own existence, identifies with a form, the body, and sees everything else as 'not "I"'.
I didn't go to the original source from which you extracted this. I assume that some remedial action is suggested there. In a nutshell, how does the author suggest that this problem be solved or transcended?
How do you know yourself? Through subjective individuality. I am a teacher, tailor, Bee keeper, young/old etc. How do you know another? Only through the mask of I.
The mask of I is all pervading. It governs the world. Grace is needed.
hj
poem by charles bukowski
if you're going to try, go all the
way.
otherwise, don't even start.
if you're going to try, go all the
way.
this could mean losing girlfriends,
wives, relatives, jobs and
maybe your mind.
go all the way.
it could mean not eating for 3 or
4 days.
it could mean freezing on a
park bench.
it could mean jail,
it could mean derision,
mockery,
isolation.
isolation is the gift,
all the others are a test of your
endurance, of
how much you really want to
do it.
and you'll do it
despite rejection and the
worst odds
and it will be better than anything else
you can imagine.
if you're going to try,
go all the way.
there is no other feeling like
that.
you will be alone with the
gods.
and the nights will flame with
fire.
do it, do it, do it,
do it
all the way
all the way.
you will ride life straight to
perfect laughter, it's
the only good fight
there is.
------------------
Problem of suppression of desires in who am in enquiry:
Hi all, this is Krishna.
I have been practising this who am i enquiry for past 20 days. This is what I pracitsed:
i)not supressing any passions or thoughts but simply enquires it to go to the source of those passions or thoughts,
ii)catch hold of that I who expresses or thinks all this to belong to it,
iii)then to carefully avoid attaching any "having or becoming " to this notion of I.
iv)To try to remain as an awareness at the same time in the background think of Dakshina Murthy as all pervading God.
Difficulty:
Though all these four steps are not so much far away from the actual self enquiry method, what I observed is that it is only a portion of my being -- ie the reasoning faculty of the brain, that does all this practice.
What really happened was that at night times, when that part of my being which enquired carefully went asleep (to be scientific lets say that portion of the brain cells are resting), the underlying desires, passions outbursted like anything. Without releasing the same, the "I" ,the real ego felt like going mad. Finally I yielded, got defeated outright and released those passions & desires at nocturnal times.
(I dont want to explicitly mention but by this time people would have guessed what I am meaning).
So the real question is, even in this "who am i" method, it is indirectly supressing the desires or passions through a different means. When that intellect part of the brain which did this who am i enquiry goes asleep, what really happens is somewhat similar to what happens in other methods like japa, tapa etc. The problem of supression and outburst has become all the same like other methods in my case. Can anybody help how to overcome this?
Another interesting question is that somewhere I read, may be wrong , "who am i" question does not belong to the mind or memory. Its from a different part of our being, something like it is not a mere intellectual questioning.
But I dont think so somehow. And my biggest scary thing is that our modern scientist may give a fantastic explanation to prove that the state of nothingness or "I am awareness" state is merely a hallunciation which the brain is hypnotized to be believed real by its own reasoning. I am sorry but sometimes these types of linking to science or fearing an encounter with a scientist on this subject haunts me very much
No hurt feelings, but please help me to resolve my two questions as above.
David,
The essay is more descriptive than prescriptive but it does go into great detail about what happens when inquiry is taken all the way to resolution. He takes up the example of the koan technique in his essay, but I know for a fact that he did not think that was the only way. (He didn't practice or prescribe zazen either, even though his friend Masao Abe thought it the best way.)
Kyoto School thinking, it seems to me, always talks of a quest for the absolute that entails self-negation (negation of all that is relative), leading to a kind of tense impasse ('great doubt block') where the only thing left to negate is the negator. This is called 'the gateless gate'. Passing through this 'gate', one is permanently transformed. (A form of post-enlightenment practice is generally advocated, however.)
It is impossible to choose just a couple of paragraphs to sum up his description of the quest, because he proceeds very slowly and carefully. But I can safely say that it involves fully unearthing and confronting the essential contradiction of self-nature rather than running from it or ameliorating its symptoms as usual. I’ll follow with what seem like apt quotes to offer you.
"...The initial purpose of the koan – and the accompanying methodology of zazen, the sesshin, and sanzen – is to get the ego to arouse, to crystallize, to bring entirely to the fore, and then, rather than endure, to become wholly and authentically the living contradiction which, as ego, it veritably is.
In order that the ego thus be true to itself as ego, it must expend itself and actualize its ultimate limit not in terms of its external failures or impossibilities, but in terms of its inner structural antimony. As an ever object-oriented subject, for the ego to approach this actualization it is usually necessary that every possible content for its object-orientation be spent, depleted, or denied. Unable as subject to make any further effort away from itself toward the outside, it may then undergo an internal transformation, not remaining as subject and simply reversing its orientation inwardly upon itself as object in introspection, but becoming, instead, radically and consummately, its inherent root-contradiction. Only when it has become fully that contradiction does it finally come to be subjectless and objectless. For as that core-contradiction, ego-consciousness is, itself, arrested and checked. Ceasing to be a fluid, conditioned subjectivity, it is now, without subjectivity or objectivity, one total, solid, existential block."
"This is not, however, either the pre-ego-consciousness of the infant, the abortive ego-consciousness of the idiot, the retarded ego-consciousness of the ‘wolf-child’, the deteriorated ego-consciousness of the psychotic, the numbed ego-consciousness of the anesthetized, the lethargic ego-consciousness of the stupor, the quiescent ego-consciousness of dreamless sleep, the suspended ego-consciousness of the trance, or the inert ego-consciousness of the coma. This is rather ego-consciousness itself, in and as its own radical contradiction, stayed and impacted. It is nether vacant nor blank, nor does it cancel itself and dissolve. While blocked and constricted, lacking active discrimination between itself and not itself, it is not at all dull or lifeless. It is, indeed, most sensitive. Moreover, being as yet unresolved, its struggle continues, although no more by or of the ego merely as ego. Ego has at last become koan, and both have become the struggle and ‘concentration’ itself, the ‘great doubt block’ itself, the root-contradiction itself, subjectless and objectless.
This is the ego thoroughly exhausted as ego. No longer subject or object, it is unable to strive or attempt. In contradistinction to the only seeming helplessness of the pre-suicidal state, this is consummate existential helplessness itself, in which even suicide is impossible. As long as the ego as subject can undertake an act, albeit its own annihilation, it is not truly helpless."
...
"When, however, this negative root-core, bursting, uproots and turns on itself, then the ego truly dies ‘the great death’, which is at once the great birth or ‘great awakening’.
The ‘great death’ is the ego dying to itself in its radical negativity. In no sense a relative nihilistic destruction or expiration into a hollow void or nothingness, this abrupt uprooting and reversal is, rather, the break-up and dissipation of the contradiction, of the abyss, of the aporia. The annulment and negation of ultimate negativity, it is itself positive. The negative dissolution is at the same time a positive resolution. The ego negated as ego in the central contradiction of its ego-consciousness attains, through this negation, positively and affirmatively, its resolution and fulfillment. In dying to itself as ego, it is born and awakens to its Self as Self.
Again to be emphasized is that the root-contradiction in its root is not here any metaphysical or ontological postulate. It is a most urgent and burning actuality. So, its bursting and turning upon itself is also a concrete reality. Breaking up and dissolving as that root-core contradiction, the ego gains, with direct immediacy, reconciliation and completion. The constricted and obstructed ultimate limit is now the freely functioning primordial source and ultimate ground. No longer centered in the root-contradiction of initial ego-consciousness, it is, instead, centered in the ground and source of its Self. Root-limit, reversing and turning in on itself, becomes root-source and root-ground. This radical, cataclysmic uprooting, turning, and reversing by, of, and at the root-core, is called, in Zen, in Japanese, satori.
The satori break-up and dissolution of the expended and arrested ego in its root-contradiction at the root is the awakening of the ego or the root to its ground and source in its Self. This awakening to its Self is at once the awakening of its Self. From the perspective of ego-consciousness in its core-contradiction ‘great doubt block’, the total break-up, disintegration, and death is an awakening and break-through to its Self. But from the opposite perspective, the awakening and break-through to its Self is the awakening and opening up of its Self. This is, truly, Self-awakening: that which awakens is that which is awakened, that by which it is awakened, and that to which it is awakened. Act as well as fact, it is at the same time its Self the ground, root-source, and prius of act and fact."
To: Hi, all this is Krishna. Without giving room even to the doubting thought, ‘Is it possible to dissolve so many vāsanās [desires to think and experience objective phenomena] and be only as self?’, [we] should cling tenaciously to svarūpa-dhyāna [self-attentiveness]. ...
Being completely absorbed in ātma-niṣṭha [self-abidance], not giving even the slightest room to the rising of any other chintanā [thought] except ātma-chintanā [self-contemplation or self-attentiveness], alone is giving ourself to God. ...
Therefore in practice ‘tracing the ego back to its source’ means only attending vigilantly to our ego or finite sense of ‘I’ in order to make it subside back into our pristine non-dual self-conscious being, ‘I am’, which is the source or ‘birthplace’ from which it originated.
Krishna,
"The problem of supression and outburst has become all the same like other methods in my case. Can anybody help how to overcome this?"
Friend,it is not enough to nurse the idea of 'overcoming' sexual passion.
What is it that you have been attracted to in your seeking?Perchance one has chanced upon a sort of melting within,a sense of Peace and quiet triggered by Reading a Book,Visiting a Temple or a scenic Place,Listening to music,etc.This sort of a Glimpse into a deeper form of Living is what sets one on the spiritual path.
The Right approach is to intensify this diving within.This is only possible when the outer pell-mell is set aside.
So,a two pronged approach is necessary-The Intensification of the seeking as well as the rejection of those things that drag one to the superficial ways of outer Life.
The sort of company that we keep plays a great role-If we Associate with the Great ones, to that extent we are attracted in that direction.On the other hand if we associate with the Frivolous,to that extent we are pulled in that direction.
We need to take care as to how we organize our Daily Living in general-a few hours spent in Japa,meditation or Enquiry does not count for much if we live carelessly the rest of the hours.
It helps to reduce hours spent watching the Television and keeping away from Magazines and novels.This is the only way to stop fueling the flame of desire.
It may be a little trying in the beginning but once the taste for a Richer and Deeper Living is developed,the mind will find joy and satisfaction in this and will not be attracted to its wanton ways.
There may be occassions when you are on neutral territory and the old ways may show their face.One needs to Stand firm and exercise the 'Won't' Power and with each such rejection the mind gathers strength and will go after the inner seeking with renewed vigour and enthusiasm.
The Key thing to remember when one has to exercise 'Won't' Power is to not be fooled into believing that the clouded condition is going to last for eternity!Doggedness is the essence here and patience to let it wane.Just keep oneself oriented in the Right direction,however ineffective and feeble this attempt may appear to be.
Earnestness and Resolve are the Key to success.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
krishna: admire your honest queries. of course, as always, ravi answered your query beautifully. the fundamental urge to 'seek the self' is grace. and once we embark, many indeed are the obstacles & challenges one may have to contend with. what do you think will happen when one uses a pretty powerful rod to churn the tank that has been accumulating residue for untold ages? naturally, all those things that one doesn't wish to see surfaces, but then there is no other way to clean the tank :-)
yes, numerous shall be the times when we fail to live up to our own expectations. the one thing to be clear about is to not dwell on these 'failures' but simply keep trying & attempting 'vichAra' no matter how many times we get bludgeoned by these fiery tidal waves. don't know about other methods, but vichAra, which is known to treat only the disease and not the symptoms, will gradually bring about a natural revulsion & detachment to the vagaries of the mind.
this 'term 'gradually' obviously differs from person to person, and is a function of how pure one's mind is. if you feel naturally inclined to other things such as japa, satsangs etc etc., then they help. if, on the other hand, you have to force yourself for such things, then simply stick to vichAra, of course without ever being bothered with how pure your mind is! bhagavAn himself says that to those who are naturally attracted to vichAra, no other thing is necessary. everything that's essential shall come of its own accord.
as regards the other issue of so-called scientific explanations trying to explain away the seeking & realisation, it's best to think of bhagavAn then. well, if such 'hypnosis' indeed can place oneself in such an unshakeable & invincible bliss, then blessed is such 'hypnosis' :-) after all, the mind that's on the road to imminent annihilation will do everything within its power to assert itself in manifold ways. it's very nice to hear about anyone trying vichAra. it's not easy to sustain vichAra but if you can, nothing like it. all the dross has to go :-)
My fiftieth year had come and gone,
I sat, a solitary man, in a crowded London shop,
An open book and empty cup
On the marble table-top.
While on the shop and street I gazed
My body of a sudden blazed;
And twenty minutes more or less
It seemed, so great my happiness,
That I was blessed and could bless.
W.B. Yeats
NM: On your side there is so much trouble. On my side there is no trouble at all. Come to my side. You are trouble-prone. I am immune. Anything may happen – what is needed is sincere interest. Earnestness does it.
Q: Can I do it?
NM: Of course. You are quite capable of crossing over. Only be sincere.
Has anyone experienced love for Self enquiry? Offlate, I get bemused by the "mystery" and love Enquiry all the more. I love the fact that even though its supposed to be simple, we struggle so much; even though we know we are, we dont know who we are! Ah! falling in love with the wonderful mystery, wonderful Maya and most wonderful enquiry. This love and awe for enquiry has been a distraction in a way. I just keep wondering and keep myself amused at all the maze and hence stop enquiry. But I dont want to stop loving enquiry. Is this an impediment? Anyone experienced this anytime? What is happening with me?
I think I love inquiry, when I'm actually inquiring. I love the discoveries, and the abiding more in my actual nature, and abiding in reality, and seeing reality, because it is so huge, and supernatural and beautiful. Lately, I've again taken to listening to CD's of Nome. But if you don't believe me that he's the real deal, I could imagine listening to Papaji or Krishnamurti as well. Having the words of a sage constantly filling the ears, I think is a powerful way, to not get sucked into maya, and suffering, and forget who i am. The "I am the body" idea is still functioning in me, despite sometimes really deep peace and contentment, well it manifests as gross ignorance sometimes. But yesterday, when I was listening to Nome, I really sometimes, get it, on a much deeper level. Maybe not as an individual I, but I see clearly how to eliminate the false self, and reveal the substratum. I think it is important to use any tool, to the max that allows one to do that. So yes, when that is happening, I really love it. Fruitless attempts at pseudo-inquiry, I don't know if I love that. But real inquiry is amazing! Using anything that is a helpful tool, and using it constantly, seems important. If more beginner tools are called for, not letting pride get in the way is important I think. If I need to observe breathing, or pray, or what ever, go to church, go to a yoga class, but when I actually see how clearly how to discern, I also can leave those behind as well.
David, I tried to contact you via the email address given at http://www.davidgodman.org - can you please let me know whether I got through?
Gordon
Ramana Literature says end of the day, God too is only your imagination and so 'Unreal'. By God I mean 'Personal God'. Elsewhere the words Self and Guru are used interchangeably.Then is not Guru 'Unreal' too? that includes a living Guru.
Let me spin it this way.Guru will not show grace unless the devotee is ready/ripe. Does this not make the living Guru automatic/Jada/inert/predestined too?
In such a scenario where and how do concepts like humility, love and service to a living guru come about?
The reason I ask is I read again and again to pratise more love, humility etc and I really get stuck as if one tries to do 'MORE' than what comes naturally he ends up as fake. Love,compassion,humility etc is not something that you can practise like in a Gym; yet all books and all Gurus bang on this point all the time.
What am I missing here or is it like UG says, all emotions/relationships including that of a Guru are need based and so Jada/automatic. This also concurs with Bhagawan saying that in the end everything is pre-destined.
Please help.
Thanks,
-Follow the Rabbit...
Gordon
I received your email, along with the essay. I struggled through the first few pages and then gave up. It was much too dry and academic for me. I don't think I will go back to it or finish it. Sorry, but it just didn't resonate with me.
Follow the Rabbit,
All these sayings are still 'ideas' only.They may be a Fact for the one who articulated them.As a Fact also it may mean something totally different than is generally understood by the ordinary mind.They do not serve any useful purpose to the seeker and may only serve to confuse and confound.
Humility,Love,etc can be directly experienced as a matter of Fact.These are very much within the range of the average seeker.Certainly these are not things of the Mind-hence cannot be thought out,shaped,Practised like in a Gymnasium.
The moment we perceive the absence of these in us,that we very moment there is a possibility of these qualities to surface from within.They are intrinsic part of our Human nature(same as divine!).
Once we do this and learn to live at a deeper level,the Truth about Humility,Love,etc are directly perceived and we do not have to refer to any authority from outside for support.To say that these are not real and only the Self is Real is like saying that the Flower alone is Real and not its Fragrance.(That it depends on the state of one's sense of smell!).If this sort of a thing satisfies the Intellect,then the 'Intellect' can only carry it forward by 'Rejecting' everything else 'Known'.This is the way of Jnana Yoga.It should be in a position to Reject the Body,mind also as unreal and remain as the Self.
Next comes the position what Sri Ramakrishna Had talked about-seeing everything as the Self.You had quoted this passage already.
This is like attempting to jump across the wide mouth of a well-one has to make sure that one clears it all the way;Or else one risks falling into the well and injuring oneself(or die).
We may introspect and ask ourselves-Where do these teachings or sayings lead us?Do they only seve to Break us or do they also serve to help us cross the barrier?
Each one has to learn to stand on his own ground, however flimsy that may be and grow from there.
Namaskar.
Ravi, agreed. However, to me, the teachings of the Self, and also what you mention about humility and love. They seem sort of to me, like one movement. And one can't be without the other. Because if I start to overcome my negative tendencies, then I start seeing in a more unitary way. If I start seeing in a unitary way, I start feeling happy, and shedding attachments, desires and fears, and so love and humility grow. I think the approach I take, is knowing that I don't know, but am learning, and earnestly practicing. But for sure, I don't see Advaita as just high teachings, or the eka jiva, and drishti-shrishti that David godman is mentioning, seem very much connected to even the beginner level. It's all connected. And I can't say, that I can practice humility and love, without also to some degree giving up the objective outlook, and questioning the self, neti neti, disregarding thoughts, disidentifying from body, senses and mind. And I can't give up the obective outlook, and question the self, without humility and love, because otherwise it doesn't work, and the Self that remains is humility and love itself, not those words or ideas, but where do they come from? What is called the atman, Brahman, God. I'm not an expert, but the pure intellectualism seems to me, to just be tamas, and that does not save me from death. Because the "I am the body" idea is still seemingly real. However, I am having the glimmers of success, mainly through inquiry, but inquiry contains surrender, and I think contains devotion as well. I wasn't drawn to the devotion side, but even in a dream last night, all my friends in the dream were excitedly talking about the Rama mantra. It was weird. Surrender, I often find myself writing Nome, my Self, and that seems to be a very powerful act of surrender to the guru. So, all these things, are growing, and dissolving, destroying, removing, clearing out, the other tendency. So I guess I'm just saying, it all works together. But I'm drawn to the nondual advaita outlook, not because of intellectualism, but because it is so necessary. I don't get free of death, I don't get free of suffering, if the ego is taken to be me. So inquiry seems of the utmost importance. Whatever works, and take advantage that to the fullest. To be happy, know what my nature is, beyond doubt, to be irrevocably free of the possibility of death.
Scott,
Follow the Rabbit has expressed a difficulty and I have responded to that.I should say that I have gone through this phase myself and am familiar with this terrain.It can be paralysing.
The way of the Intellect through Neti,Neti need not lead to Humility and love.There are examples of Such Jnanis-Totapuri,Sri Ramakrishna's Guru is one such.This is why Sri Ramakrishna makes a distinction between Jnanis and vijnanis.
He says:
""According to Vedanta the waking state, too, is unreal. Once a wood-cutter lay
dreaming, when someone woke him up. Greatly annoyed, he said: 'Why have you
disturbed my sleep? I was dreaming that I was a king and the father of seven
children. The princes were becoming well versed in letters and military arts. I was
secure on my throne and ruled over my subjects. Why have you demolished my world
of joy?' 'But that was a mere dream', said the other man. 'Why should that bother
you?' 'Fool!' said the wood-cutter. 'You don't understand. My becoming a king in the
dream was just as real as is my being a wood-cutter. If being a wood-cutter is real,
then being a king in a dream is real also.' "
Prankrishna always talked about jnana. Was this why the Master described the
state of the jnani? Now he proceeded to describe the state of the vijnani.
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MASTER: "Jnana is the realization of Self through the process of 'Neti, neti', 'Not
this, not this'. One goes into samadhi through this process of elimination and
realizes the Atman.
"But vijnana means Knowledge with a greater fullness. Some have heard of milk,
some have seen milk, and some have drunk milk. He who has merely heard of it is
'ignorant'. He who has seen it is a jnani. But he who has drunk it has vijnana, that is
to say, a fuller knowledge of it. After having
the vision of God one talks to Him as if He were an intimate relative. That is
vijnana."
-----------------------------------
I should also add that Nonduality as it is often talked about is only 'thought'.If one has a glimpse of Nondual experience,he should be able to say like Sri Ramakrishna or Sri Bhagavan-'Others eating Food is the same as my eating Food.I eat through so many mouths.'
Any blissful experience where one is not overtly conscious of the 'ego' sense is not nondual.It is the Ego that is conscious of the Bliss.One then thinks he is very 'close' to Nondual experience.This is only the Beginning of spiritual living where one is learning to throw away the cloud of Stress and Strain and is becoming aware of the peace and happiness that are a natural part of one's being.This is indeed a Good sign.
As I have already stated,The woodcutter was asked to go deeper into the Forest by the Sadhu.This is what needs to be done.
Namaskar.
No problem David!
I think that the essay is valuable enough that I want to pass it around in the hope that it resonates with someone, but hey, different strokes for different folks.
G
Hi Ravi,
Thanks for your reply.I like this line :
'They may be a Fact for the one who articulated them.'
Just like there are so many vaadaas and Bhagwaan accepting all of them as true from that specific point of evolution; every being is a unique point of evolution/maturation. I also now think Love/Humility/Knowledge are the colour,smell and such like of a fruit. They are the pointers and symbols of ripening but not the fruit itself. So I think the statements such as be 'more' humble; love 'more' are just empty statements. It may not be the Guru's fault; it could be the devotee asking I am failing(for eg:falling asleep during meditation) repeatedly and what should he do. What can the Guru say in such a scenario:surely not try again:) lest should he get a reply I know that.So 'probably' Gurus come up with such empty liners.
Also another point is eligibility/ripening is not the only criteria for a Guru to accept a disciple.The famed 'M'/Mahendranath Gupta did not accept Yogananda as sishya,Vivekananda did not accept Yogananda's disciple saying his Guru will come later and many many such stories in lives of all Gurus like Sri Sarada/ Lakshmana, Bhagwaan,Aurobindo,Shirdi Sai,Ramakrishna,UG and many more I read.A lot of them also mention a previous life connection with the current devotees.
It is all just 'Automatic'/Pre-destined.Once a stone is thrown in the middle of a calm river everything after that:the number,height,lifespan,force and grouping of the waves(jivas) is all pre-determined and nothing can change it.Each frame of the wave is one life.There is really no choice to the waves about anything.The Guru gives so called grace like a machine and the devotee serves so called nishkamya karma like a machine.The just about to die wave being so close to the river feels it is all one:eka jiva.Up to that point it can worry who threw the stone(pranava naada?) but once the wave is dead who is there to tell us what.The entire Holy business is just an empty formula. I wish I hadn't come to this conclusion.I feel like the kid who knows that Christmas Santa doesn't exist.I wish I knew it when I grew up(Less vasanas).The so called Dwaitas are the smarter elders from kid's point of view.They know that Santa does not exist but they will never say it to the kids.They vehemently defend Santa.
So I decided to turn an old leaf: 'Work is Worship';the society brands some vasanas as sin and the other as virtue.The only message/advise that there is ever is 'Try Again,there is no shorcut'.
To me the addiction of work is better than the addiction of God.
My last post.This blog has been a very wonderful, warm, high quality and useful experience.I have read almost all books on Bhagawan.He is 'Perfection' in every sense;the best of the best;a mother; but it is U.G Krishnamurthi(UG) that has been the most useful to me although I do not know if he is genuine.Good luck and Thanks very much to you all:David,Ravi et al
I still HAVE to follow but it doesn't look like the Rabbit...
Such a shame! Is this what is called the dark night of the soul?
You have formulated your arguement well. Nevertheless there is a whiff of lazy thinking involved as the intelectual mind can never get the experience of enlightment.
The busy mind, no matter how clever, is the obstacle.
I do not agree with the statement "guru's come up with such empty liners."
This all smacks of being disallusioned.
hj
hj
It's unfortunate that your search hit a brick wall. The intellect can be the antithesis of spiritual vision. UG Krishnamurti was nothing more than a professional debunker with a cynisism to match. He describes his own illumination experience as a "calamity" In contrast to Ramana whose own experience of the Self was bliss.
Ravi:(Any blissful experience where one is not overtly conscious of the 'ego' sense is not nondual.It is the Ego that is conscious of the Bliss.One then thinks he is very 'close' to Nondual experience.)
Me: I've had this discussion with others on this site. What you say here, I am not certain that it tallies with the things Sri Bhagavan himself said. In the other discussion I brought up that Maharshi said repeatedly, "The Self is Bliss". In Who am I? He said,
"Happiness is the very nature of the Self; happiness and the Self are not different. There is no happiness in any object of the world. We imagine through our ignorance that we derive happiness from objects. When the mind goes out, it experiences misery. In truth, when its desires are fulfilled, it returns to its own place and enjoys the happiness that is the Self. Similarly, in the states of sleep, samadhi and fainting, and when the object desired is obtained or the object disliked is removed, the mind becomes inward-turned, and enjoys pure Self-Happiness. Thus the mind moves without rest alternately going out of the Self and returning to it. Under the tree the shade is pleasant; out in the open the heat is scorching."
So, my interpretation and understanding of what he is saying, is that the Self and happiness are one and the same. That means a blissful state, or experience is not different from the Self, is not created by the ego, is not part of maya, it is not delusion.
Bliss is not another egoic state of mind, it is the substratum itself. That really plays out in my experiences. I am unhappy because of delusions and desires. I am happy, when I start transcending, questioning, getting rid of those delusions and desires. It's very straight forward. (to the degree that I would almost go so far as to say, if someone says they are happy all the time, and there is nothing to be unhappy about, and they are not pretending, that person must be a jnani, because there is no other to have that experience)
The Self is defined in Vedanta as Being-Consciousness-Bliss. So again, the same thing. I don't feel comfortable playing jnani (others may feel more comfortable doing that) and talking about what is nondual, or not nondual. When my experience is secure in these things maybe. But the best I can come up on my own, (rooted in experience, because only experience matters), is that duality is the sense, the feeling of being an I, an entity, living in a worldly experience, with an individual life, and problems, worries, desires.
When that is not the nature of the subjective experience. Also maybe that is another aspect, is there being person, and their experience. There is dualistic seperation. Also, thinking, alot of my thinking, is rooted, in all not being well, or it seeming that way. Regardless, I know at this point, when I'm on the wrong path, and when I'm on the right path. And I can honestly say that Nome's statement, "Bliss can never be wrong". I am sure is true, in the highest most holy levels of spirituality.
I can't think of anything even morally, ethically iffy, or unkind, or cutting corners, dishonest, lacking in virtue, that involves being happy. And happiness is clear cut. This is not esoteric, or confusing. In some ways, I even know that I choose the unspiritual, and then am unhappy because of it. So this whole idea that bliss is another state of mind experienced by an ego, seems really faulty and delusive to me. But there is no point in arguing about it, people will come around, and are at their own levels, and correcting myself is correcting the world. I can't fix other people's delusions, I can only fix my own. But as an ego, I would say there is no bliss, there is only temporary dullness, and less discomfort during that, or peak experiences of physical pleasure.
But the only deep abiding happiness, I experience is when I question the forms of the ego. So I would say unequivocally there is no dualistic happiness. As Maharshi said, in that quote.
Again, it comes back to, the only people worth listening to are sages, are jnanis. Ajnanis will lead you astray, and so many of them think they know. That quote by Maharshi alone, undermines so much of the interpretations people have made about advaita.
In my own experiences, I was just laying on my bed, and feeling very happy, blissful. I may not be in samadhi, or I may, I'm not sure. And lets say I say, "I am in a blissful state".
Well, I wouldn't want to do that? Because then my bliss would be dimished, that act of thinking, and thinking about how I am happy, that I am a person that is happy, diminishes greatly the happiness. (even worse if I'm thinking I'm happy because of something that 5 minutes later could change)
Infact lately, it's the questioning of individual-ness, that has led to being happy. because the happiness does not have the ego as it's source. It doesn't have worldly experiences as a source, because if I get an object I want, I may experience a small ammount of peace, but also the anxiety, because it is temporary. And the desire for happiness (Self) so strong.
So it is absolutely imperative to keep that situation. Lets say, I did fall in love with someone, and was really happy with them. That's great, but if that was taken to be what was causing my happiness, it would be mixed with the anxiety, of the inevitable loss of these things. Them seeing someone else, losing interest in me, or inevitable death even after a long marriage.
So it wouldn't be pure happiness. Infact would lead to great grief. So I guess i'm saying Bliss, seems to me to be a good indicator of the Reality itself, Brahman itself. That where there is Bliss, so there is the Supreme Self, God, nirvana, moksha, Liberation. All virtuous behavior, compassion kindness comes from that unitary sense of happiness. Do cruel people even look happy? (laugh). Do greedy people seem happy? (laugh).
Arrogant people? It's humorous to even consider. Neti, neti, to me means to eliminate what is false, i.e. what is obscuring the natural state of peace and happiness. According to Maharshi, that is the ego, or the I-thought, or the sense of person-hood. Taking myself to be mind, body, or senses. So yes, if one is sincere in neti, neti, it would most definitely, immediately lead to one being compassionate, kind, happy, loving. Fake "neti, neti", as in fake anything, isn't really worth discussing. We're interested in the real Gold, not fools gold.
And what Ramakrishna was talking about the same thing, merging with God. I was reading his own account of his Realization in this book, and ultimately he realized the pure Atman. He was a fully Realized jnani. Maybe there are more terms for it. But it's all the same I guess i'm saying. If someone thinks they are an advaitin, and isn't happy, and is unkind, that person is not an advaitin, but still thinking illusion is real.
Anonymous(Follow the Rabbit?!)
I do understand and appreciate what you have posted about UG.Also about what you have said about 'Work'.You are blessed.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Scott,
I do not see any contradiction in what you have posted.All I have said is that the one who is happy will be free to accept the world.
Namaskar
here is a sincere practitioner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEnRF4XqIRI&feature=related
practice described at 10:10
These are poems by Nome that I found within the Reflections presented at the Society of Abidance in Truth Website: disclaimer: perhaps the context of the issue of Reflections is important, but I was personally inspired by these when I read them.
If you can love
Without attachment,
You will discover
The nonduality of Being.
If you can love
Without an object,
You will discover
Self-sufficient Bliss.
If you can love your Guru,
Asking nothing in return,
You will be free of need
And will inherit the great treasure.
If you can love the Truth
And devote yourself to it,
You will be absorbed
And attain final Liberation.
If you can love
For the sake of love itself,
The Self will be known by you,
And you will know neither fear not deficiency.
If you can love the Absolute
And care for nothing else,
The Truth will abide in your heart,
And you will outlive all else.
If you can love like this,
You, indeed, know the power of love.
If you can love like this,
You have all that you need for life, and you will not taste death.
If a thousand expressions of hatred
Meet with one drop of divine love,
The former become nonexistent,
And the latter is triumphantly serene.
Power of the Master:
He who abides
As the one Self,
Transcendent of duality,
Who sees nothing but the Self,
Who abides as pure Being,
Whose Consciousness is free of all concepts,
Whose Existence is not veiled by superimposition,
Whose Bliss is unconditional and everlasting,
Who retains not the least trace of misidentification,
Whose peace is fathomless,
Whose freedom is limitless,
Who has realized the Truth of no-creation,
Whose words are sincere,
Whose Enlightenment is genuine,
And whose Silence is inconceivable,
Is the Master true.
Appearing as the form of the Formless,
He enables the disciple
To hear the inexpressible,
To grasp the ungraspable,
To understand the inconceivable,
To discern the inscrutable,
To the see the invisible,
To discover the nonobjective,
To attain the unattainable,
To know the incomprehensible,
And to abide in the locationless,
The timeless, forever,
The bodiless, thoughtless, egoless Self.
The power of the Master
Cannot be measured.
The power of the Master
Never declines.
The power of the Master
Is always the Good (Siva).
The power of the Master
Is his genuineness.
The power of the Master
Is of wisdom and love.
The power of the Master
Is of the Absolute.
The power of the Master
Is the power of the Self.
What Do I Know?:
What do I know?
Only Being itself.
Though knowing Existence,
I do not know a world.
Though awake to the mind's Essence,
I do not know an idea.
Though immersed in infinite love,
I do not know a relationship.
Though dwelling in a solitary life,
I do not know loneliness.
Though facing death,
21
I do not know fear.
Though embracing life,
I do not know attachment.
All pervading,
I do not know possession.
Light itself,
I do not know how to obscure myself.
At home in wisdom,
I do not know how to manufacture ignorance.
Being Reality itself,
I do not know illusion.
Abiding as the Self,
I do not know where to find an ego.
Space-like,
I do not know limits.
Like wind,
I do not know clinging.
Like water,
I do not know shape,
Like fire,
I do not know how to keep straw.
Like solid rock,
I do not know how to waver.
Like a newborn child,
I do not know concepts.
Like an old man on his deathbed,
I do not know a “good reason" for foolishness,
Like a lover at the peak moment of sexual intercourse,
I do not know of other things.
Like a mirror,
I do not know a color, shape, or image of my own.
Though knowing the Truth,
I have not one concept about it.
Dwelling in absolute Freedom,
I do not know bondage.
Consciousness itself,
I do not know duality.
In the Realization of the Self,
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I do not know another.
Seeing what Is,
I do not know how to be confused.
Having realized no-creation,
I do not know a single, objective thing.
Beholding the treasure of the universe,
I do not know how to crave anything of the world.
What do I know?
Only Being itself.
Ask me any question;
I can answer.
I am the answer.
What do I know?
Only Being itself.
What do I know?
Hello,
Got back on the 30th from a beautiful trip to Tiruvannamalai and the ashram.
As with every trip, this one also was engineered by Bhagavan. My desire to go was seemingly blocked by loads of work in office. Yet, predictably, everything miraculously cleared up three days before I was to go.
I discovered that I was arriving in Tiru on Full Moon Day - had been my deite to do Giripradakshina on that day.
A day after the Giripradakshina, I sought out David and asked him about the significance of Full Moon Giripradakshina(since the Arunachala Mahatmyam is silent on the subject).
David told me with a straight face that the Full Moon Giripradakshina was a practice that started after a Tamil movie that came out around twenty years ago!
I laughed inside, but to me it just proved that as long as it is a desire for a good thing, Bhagavan does make it happen.
The pradakshina itself was beautiful - had the pleasure of being accompanied by a long-time resident of Tiru. Every step was accompanied by very casual conversations on Bhagavan, Arunachala and Papaji. Sheer bliss.
Arunachala takes on many forms. Just happens that twenty years ago, He took the form of Rajnikant (the actor in the afore-mentioned film) to draw people to Him.
Nandu Narasimhan
salutations to all:
it was nice to read nandu's comment regarding his recent visit to aruNAchalA. has anyone visited aruNAchalA on a 'newmoon' day? the experience is entirely of the other kind. in my own case, prefer visiting on days around the newmoon or the amAvAsya - typically, there will next to none going around the hill, nothing but a cover of darkness, as the night gets deeper one begins to hear just oneself. despite all the rush on certain days, on which i would never like to visit, many indeed are those dark 'inauspicious' days when one can have the hill or 'aLappari thAmvakai nindRa aNNalAr (in the words of sambandhar)' all for oneself :-)
reading nandu's comment almost instantaneously revived my discontent while soaking me with indignation :-( of course, not at all at dear nandu, but on aruNAchala & bhagavAn! am no longer satisfied with all these trifles of grace that i have to gratefully accept. what the heck? "aruNAchala: it must be rather foolish on your part to presume that am going to be satiated with some teeny-weeny bits & pieces of irritating grace & hence stop nagging you for the moment. enough of your craft & cunning, you better give me your state & make me your own. now, don't put this or that nonsensical condition or pre-requisites because to begin with, am a '0', and though i know that all i can is to put effort, i also know that all my efforts are like adding more zeros to the existing zeros! aren't you the '1'? so, please stop fooling around, erase all the 0s and consume me within your '1'. too many of them have showered unlimited praise on you; i suppose you need to get used to some of the best abuses known to humankind (tamil & english will do for now) !!!"
so my dear folks: please stop getting satisfied with aruNAchalA's diplomatic machinations. please don't get overwhelmed by the fringe benefits that actually amount to nothing, and which are as transient as the world around us. please say 'NO' to the crumbs that he keeps throwing at us. it's high time we stop saying 'it's all because of your grace' it's precisely because we feel overjoyed owing to our stupidity at those small acts of grace (such as the ones that nandu mentioned) that nothing 'really' is of consequence. aah!, this reminds me of that wonderful boy nachikEtas in the kaThOpanishad. far better is the headlong tAmasic approach than the good-for-nothing sAtvik attitude :-))) enough of aruNAchala bashing today :D
Nandu/s.,
Nandu's Full moon Arunachala and s.New moon Arunachala!we know how much these devotees love this place.
s.'s tirade against Arunachala is half hearted-You must go all out and remove Arunachala from your mind-a threat of that sort might work!Abuses not just in English and Tamil,but do try to include other languages including the undiluted aboriginal ones- will not work-will be echoed back by Arunachala and may have to be unwillingly swallowed by the originator.
s.,just be the zero.The zero cannot ask to be a 1.It needs to be a 0 and whatever Fractions are thrown at it,it can very well enjoy that as well and be the zero all the time.Does the zero has a Problem?Does the zero ever complain or Protest?It is the Fractions that aspire to be Whole.The Zero is content to be a Zero.It is the 1 that needs the zero and not the other way around!(to become the many!)
s,-Yes,I have enjoyed the New moon Arunachala-did not plan it that way-None of my visits were planned including the one's when I accompanied someone who planned these visits.I recall one such visit-the time when roads were not there and how a slithering snake friend was also going along a few feet from my feet-with only the road side small temples with their oil lamps as the only resting place.All my circumambulations were nocturnal barring one when I accompanied a Friend from the USA-There is no goal oriented walking,just keep moving and when it ends-just rest.It is best to be alone or with friends who do not talk.Also refreshing used to be the cup of tea on the way in some wayside small stall.
so that is it.
Namaskar
I have been asked to post this question by a reader who can't access the comment section of this blog:
I have suddenly this important question. Apart from answering, can you recollect this same question asked to Maharishee himself by anybody?
Question
The prana which is the accumulation of thought force carries the ego mind out of the body after death.
For a sadhaka who adopted self enquiry method or surrender to some extent in his earthly life, when he dies, can he continue his Sadhana without the need of taking another human body?
Once the soul passes away instead of getting absorbed into Divine, can that ego mind continue its vichara?
Let us assume that this sadhaka was not convinced of any heaven or hell so he cannot take any Deva realms body.He has just now passed away, his self enquiry completed by 20%, lets say.
Why not he carry his enquiry without a body?
Why we need a faculty like brain or any other instruments to express himself first and then do enquiry?
Is it not that everything is a creation of the mind? Why not one attain mukthi after dwelling without a body for some time but still doing self enquiry? What are all the difficulties that arise when one leaves his body?
Can you kindly throw some light on this with Maharishee references?
I also request you to post this question on the open thread as somehow I could not do it in my computer.
Namaskarams,
Krishna
Bhagavan discouraged devotees from speculating about post-death states, saying that they should concentrate on the present moment instead. That was his most common response to any question that asked what would happen after the death of the body.
Here is an example from Guru Vachaka Kovai:
746 If you want to attain the eternal glory of deathlessness that is devoid of the ignominy of death and birth, the proper means is to meditate solely and wholly on the ‘now’, which is without even a trace of the motions of coming and going.
Bhagavan: The trouble with all of us is that we want to know the past, what we were, and also what we will be in the future. We know nothing about the past or the future. We do know the present and that we exist now. Both yesterday and tomorrow are only with reference to today. Yesterday was called ‘today’ in its time, and tomorrow will be called ‘today’ by us tomorrow. Today is ever present. What is ever present is pure existence. It has no past or future. Why not try and find out the real nature of the present and ever-present existence?
Question: The present is said to be due to past karma. Can we transcend the past karma by our free-will now?
Bhagavan: See what the present is, as I told you. Then you will understand what is affected by or has a past or a future and also what is ever-present and always free, unaffected by the past or future or by any past karma. (Day by Day with Bhagavan, 3rd January 1946.)
Question: Is there rebirth?
Bhagavan: Do you know what birth is?
Question: Oh yes, I know that I exist now, but I want to know if I’ll exist in the future.
Bhagavan: Past!.... Present!.... Future!....
Question: Yes, today is the result of yesterday, the past, and tomorrow, the future, will be the result of today, the present. Am I right?
Bhagavan: There is neither past nor future. There is only the present. Yesterday was the present to you when you experienced it, and tomorrow will be also the present when you experience it. Therefore experience takes place only in the present, and beyond experience nothing exists.
Question: Are then past and future mere imagination?
Bhagavan: Yes, even the present is mere imagination, for the sense of time is purely mental. Space is similarly mental; therefore birth and rebirth, which take place in time and space, cannot be other than imagination. (Guru Ramana, p. 44)
http://www.arunachala.org/newsletters/2005/?pg=nov-dec
In this link there is a mention of Bagwan's photo with plaster over wounds on His body. Has any one seen them ? Care to give links here please ?
I would like to know more about Yogi Ramaiya who apparently prods Bagwan that Annamalai Swami should be given freedom. Please share some information on Yogi Ramaiya ?
Thanks
Karthik
@Krishna-regarding suppression of desires/anger etc.
As other have pointed out here, you may have realized that you have the divine grace now because you want to pursue a spiritual path. One easy way to sidestep(suppression is only temporary) desires and anger is to completely surrender to your deity or Arunachala. Whenever the desire arises you have to attribute it to the deity saying that it has emerged in you because it is the deity's wish. You are only the patra(vessel) of that desire.
Secondly, I would like to interpret your status through yoga. However, please note that, Maharishi did not encourage yogic practices per se and considered all other practices as aids or stepping stones to self-enquiry. Whenever an individual wishes to raise above his desires and lead spiritual life, it indicates that the kundalini is somewhere near Manipuraka chakra. Now,you can aid your progress by opening the upper chakras. For example, surrendering completely to higher power will open the heart chakra. You could devote a part of your spiritual practice(of self enquiry/surrender)to slight yogic practices too if you have the liking for it.
Krishnamurti is a funny thing. I realize as I watch him, when he talks about what seem like worldly things, for instance in this video, he is talking about questioning authority. And yet, what he is really talking about is on the level of the Self, or the ego. His questioning is much deeper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpPR1Ms8E0w&feature=related
Dear s. and Ravi,
I cannot agree more with your sentiments.
I guess I also get into a different way of challenging Arunachala. In my case, it's more often a question - 'What's your problem? Why don't you finish it off once and for all?'
Bhagavan himself has questioned Arunachala on this, I feel - in one of his compositions, I forget which, He asks Arunachala to stop this 'coming and going' business.
I guess if you want Him badly, really badly, He makes sure work eases off, aifares from Delhi to Bangalore ?Chennai get cheaper, and the visit just happens!
I say this in all humility - sometimes I feel He wants to see our ugly mugs as badly as we want to see Him. Guess His love for us is purer and stronger than our love for Him.
On every trip, there are one or two little 'incidents' where He shows one, what the whole thing is about.
During our giripradakshina, we were at Adi Annamalai temple at around 7 p.m. After darshan, my friend suggested we go to the outer courtyard - it was blocked and we had to get in anti-clockwise. My friend apologised to bhagavan and we went to a spot where we could see the Hill with the glow of the full moon behind it.
There was a solitary lamp, which went off a minute before the moonrise over the Hill.
As a result, when the moon finally rose over Arunachala, we were in a non-electrified world. The sight of the moonrise with the ancient courtyard of the Adi Annamalai temple was at least for me, suspended in time. There was Arunachala, Bhagavan, the full moon and nothing else.
I really cannot describe the sensation - I was half expecting Bhagavan to come around the corner, followed by His devotees.
Will post the second lovely 'incident' in the next post.
Nandu Narasimhan
contd.
The next beautiful moment happened on the day after the pradakshina. After lunch, I wandered into the Old Hall and found a15 year old girl in deep meditation. It somehow made me happy that she had come to bhagavan so soon.
I came out and sat outside the Old Hall in the shade. Soon, there were groups of these girls of the same age wandering around.
They would be giggling and whispering as they approached the Old Hall. They would go in and come out after ten or so minutes.
What struck me was the expressions on their faces when they came out. They had beautiful half-smiles on their faces. And they were not talking to each other. It was as if Bhagavan had looked straight at them inside the Old Hall.
I don't know why - it just gave me so much happiness that these people were coming to Bhagavan at such a tender age.
Surely they will be in His care from now on.
Nandu Narasimhan
Years ago I was in Tiruvannamalai with a small group of people. It was a dark night, leaning on a ha-ha wall, probably sharing the wall with a scorpion or two. Out of no where a lone, shadowy figure started singing a heartfelt devotional song to the lord. The voice was steeped in emotion; the atmosphere was timeless. I could have stood there forever but the group had moved on, so reluctantly I stirred and followed them, caught up with them before they disappeared in the darkness. Magic!
hj
Nandu/hj,
Nandu's narration of moonrise over Arunachala and hj's recalling the devotional fervour of that anonymous devotee is highly evocative and wistful.Like chopin's Nocturnes.
Thanks very much for sharing.
Namaskar.
Regarding Krishna's question about practicing self-enquiry after death or in future births, we can't say with any certainty what the afterlife or future will be, but we can notice that identification with the ego always results in identification with a body or object of some kind. So until this identification with ego is ended, there is always going to be identification with some kind of body, object, or life, whether gross or subtle.
If one is freed of identification with the gross body, one may not incarnate in the human realm any more, but one will still be identified with a subtle form. The question may still arise as to which form is best to practice self-enquiry in, and that's a bridge we will cross at the appropriate time for ourselves. It's not entirely clear that human incarnation is necessary for the practice of self-enquiry, but I do think it has advantages in helping concentrate the mind and keeping out a lot of extraneous subtle experience that might be overly confusing or distracting from self-enquiry. For some advanced souls human birth might be unnecessary, but for others it might actually be a help.
Krishna/Friends,
The pursuing of Sadhana in the Life Beyond-I have posted what the sage of Kanchi had said-in my post to the devotee who described his experience in a Tora-Tora Roller coaster.
How we live our life in the waking state determines our experiences in the Dream and sleep state-This in a way answers the question posed by Krishna.
As Broken Yogi has said,the advanced devotees(whose heart is purified of dross)may not have to come back to the physical world to continue from where they left off.
The most practical thing is what Sri Bhagavan said-Focus on the now.Tomorrow never comes.
The other perspective about the question is not the 'what' of it but the 'why' of it.'Why' this question?Perhaps it is prompted by the feeling of inadequacy or insecurity.The most practical approach is to do what one can,however little and inadequate it may appear to be,and continue the Sadhana with earnestness.(Like the sparrow trying to empty the ocean as David had mentioned Papaji's saying).
When we get into this mode of Sadhana with earnestness,even Hell will be the same as Heaven and we leave all these fears and hopes behind.What one is matters more than where one is-whether one is in the physical world,in the nether world or whatever.
Namaskar.
For me Tiruvannamalai, Arunachela is a place of spiritual longing.
Years ago the outskirts used to be a place of rustic simplicity, of freshness and quietness.
Now the congestion has really increased and any small temple or place of worship is renovated, if there is any wear on the patina it is repainted; always with tastless disregard. Sometimes wear and tear on a spiritual object can be fascinating . So maybe they should step back and not tamper with what is beautiful.
hj
salutations to all:
ravi/nandu:
ravi said 'It is the 1 that needs the zero and not the other way around!(to become the many!)' - so, it's aruNAchalA, the one, who needs me and not me, the zero, is it? :-))
true, i can never 'become' the '1', and thus did i demand (am not of the type who pleads or prays) for erasing the '0' and being absorbed in the '1', i am bored of being this s. or that s.; want to be aruNAchala...hahahaha
ravi also said 'Abuses will not work-will be echoed back by Arunachala and may have to be unwillingly swallowed by the originator' - yes, for all you folks, thats what will happen... hahahaha :-))) but with me, it's different, as ravi knows it too well, it all depends on the attitude & the relationship that one has with aruNAchalA... infact, the more i 'abuse', things happen! you folks are very sAtvic but i prefer the tAmasic attitude... nothing much, just that with the useless sAtvic approach, it will take some useless re-births, so on and so forth for a long long time before you taste freedom; with the highly productive tAmasic approach, you will be free in this very birth... who says so? i say so, and he who believes he will be free in this very birth will very well be... in any case, even if you take it literally, hiraNyAksha and shishupAla got liberation pretty easily :-)))
s./Friends,
What s. has said about tamasic Bhakti is indeed true-it is the intensity that matters.This is the tamasic aspect of Satva and by channelising this energy and attention towards the object of worship,one grows into its likeness.
Namaskar
Hi David, I was just on Papaji's site. I came across the delightful Brindhavan farm. All the food grown there is farm fresh and organic. Who owns it? Where does the money from sale of the fresh produce go?
Friends,
To add to the comments on the tamasic Bhakti-this is tinged with insistence on some of form of response from the object of worship.The downside of this approach is a form of recoil and depression at not getting the desired response.
A better way is to open oneself quietly,with Trust and confidence that the divine is there and knows one's needs more than a mother.This attitude is a form of prayer and is one of the simplest and most effective form of Sadhana.
As Sri Aurobindo says superbly:
'The ideal attitude of the Sadhaka towards Time is to have an endless patience as if he had all eternity for his fulfillment and yet to develop the energy that shall realise now and with an ever-increasing mastery and pressure of rapidity till it reaches the miraculous instantaneousness of the supreme divine Transformation.'
Namaskar.
S., Nandu, Ravi,
Your posts are wonderful. Tamasic or otherwise, your devotion for Arunachala is simply thrilling. Just reading your your posts can one make out how He makes people yearn for Him. If the posts themselves are so wonderful, I wonder about the thrill, the joy that you feel in your hearts for Him! Blessed indeed is Arunachala to have such highly evolved devotees whose Heart are stirred with emotions just at mere mention of His name!
Wishing you guys to have all the more of it, so much that your Heart cannot bear it!
I don't know about this whole pro-tamasic movement going on. I don't think tamas is helpful or beneficial, or even fun.
Scott/Friends,
Here is the Excerpt from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,Chapter 6,October 28,1882:
Three kinds of bhakti
Master:"Similarly, bhakti, devotion, has its sattva. A devotee who possesses it meditates on God in
absolute secret, perhaps inside his mosquito net. Others think he is asleep. Since he is late
in getting up, they think perhaps he has not slept well during the night. His love for the
body goes only as far as appeasing his hunger, and that only by means of rice and simple
greens. There is no elaborate arrangement about his meals, no luxury in clothes, and no
display of furniture. Besides, such a devotee never flatters anybody for money.
"An aspirant possessed of rajasic bhakti puts a tilak on his forehead and a necklace of holy
rudraksha beads, interspersed with gold ones, around his neck. (All laugh.) At worship he
wears a silk cloth.
"A man endowed with tamasic bhakti has burning faith. Such a devotee literally extorts
boons from God, even as a robber falls upon a man and plunders his money. 'Bind! Beat!
Kill!'-that is his way, the way of the dacoits."
Utilizing tamas for spiritual welfare
Saying this, the Master began to sing in a voice sweet with rapturous love, his eyes turned
upward:
Why should I go to Ganga or Gaya, to Kasi, Kanchi, or Prabhas,
So long as I can breathe my last with Kali's name upon my lips?
What need of rituals has a man, what need of devotions any more,
If he repeats the Mother's name at the three holy hours?
Rituals may pursue him close, but never can they overtake him.
Charity, vows, and giving of gifts do not appeal to Madan's mind;
The Blissful Mother's Lotus Feet are his whole prayer and sacrifice.
Who could ever have conceived the power Her name possesses?
Siva Himself, the God of Gods, sings Her praise with His five mouths!
The Master was beside himself with love for the Divine Mother. He sang with fiery
enthusiasm:
If only I can pass away repeating Durga's name,
How canst Thou then, O Blessed One,
Withhold from me deliverance,
Wretched though I may be? . . .
Then he said, "One must take the firm attitude: 'What? I have chanted the Mother's name.
How can I be a sinner any more? I am Her child, heir to Her powers and glories.'
"If you can give a spiritual turn to your tamas, you can realize God with its help. Force your
demands on God. He is by no means a stranger to you. He is indeed your very own."
-----------------------------------
One of the unique and wonderful aspect about Sri Ramakrishna is this versatility-How he had this gift of converting Liabilities of Devotees into assets and seemingly disadvantageous situations into Opportunities.
Once when one of his devotees complained about a loud siren in the neighbourhood going off during his Meditation hours and disturbing his concentration-Sri Ramakrishna asked him to concentrate his mind on that Noise! The devotee did as he was advised and surprisingly found that he could enter into a deep meditative state and subsequently the siren noise did not disturb him.
This sort of approach is the way of the Tantra-The Vedantic approach is to stand apart from the play of Gunas,whereas the Tantric approach is to take advantage of the Gunas.
Namaskar.
Life exists because it wants to.
Life wants to because it exists.
The camera is always rolling.
No one got the reference in "Dramatic ain't it?"
Like the cartoon characters who are chasing each other about, stop,
turn to the 'camera', shrug thier shoulders, and then resume the
chase - life goes on!
Michael
salutations to all:
anonymous: your wish 'Wishing you guys to have all the more of it, so much that your Heart cannot bear it!' is one wish i would indeed die for :-)))
laughed out loud at scott's(LMM) reference to the "pro-tamasic movement going on"... hahahahaha
let's just take bhagavAn's aksharamaNamAlai, and that too let me limit it to the first 10 verses:
(the capitals are vowel extensions or consonant aspirates)
v3: agam puguntIrthhun agakuka siRaiyAi amarvittha thenkol aruNAchalA
v4: Aruk kAyenai Andanai agaRRidil akilam pazhitthidum aruNAchalA
v5: ippazhi thappunai yEnninaip pitthAi iniyAr viduvAr aruNAchalA
v6:InRidum annayinn peritharuL purivOy iduvO unatharuL aruNAchalA
v9: yanaiazhitthipOdhu yenaikala vAvidil iduvO ANmai aruNAchalA
v10: yEninda uRakkam yenaippiRar izhukka iduvunakku azhagO aruNAchalA
in the very first ten verses, there are at least 6, which can easily be accommodated within the tAmasic way (especially, if one says all these with a raised demanding voice!) :-) this tAmasic is not at all to be confused with the tamoguNa described in the gIta and elsewhere by bhagavAn etc. for example, when the world hurts you, what do you do? it's one thing to get angry and manifest it and it's an entirely a different thing altogether to not get angry at all, isn't it? so, when i fall prey to ill-temper, i either resort to self-enquiry or, if the urge is too strong, then direct it all at AruNAchalA (e.g: 'when you are aware of my incompetence & immaturity, what the heck do you drive at by placing me in a vulnerable situation where you very well know i will fail?') now folks, some of you may say, 'that's the way you are being tested' etc. that's not the point, for when one is actually invaded by anger, then all this ratiocination doesn't work!!! what matters is that 'instant' not the 'aftermath'.
ravi also spoke about the 'depression at not getting the desired response' that might result. desperation may result regardless of the path chosen! it's precisely when i get desperate, that i switch over to self-enquiry :-) vichAra is a panacea against many ills. on the other hand, with intense desire shall also come desperation. what matters is what one does with that desperation. none has attained the truth without being desperate for truth, and it is this desperate desire of an intense magnitude that makes one a mumukshU. the same desperation to end it once and for all can also be seen in sri rAmakrishNa's seeing the Mother or in the case of bhagavAn on that 'mid-july afternoon' at madurai in 1896. :-)
let me also add that there's nothing called detached action for an ajnAnI. the 'nishkAma karma' of the gIta is only possible for one who is realised because such action is only possible for one in or for whom the ego no longer exists. but for the one seeking the truth, it's desire that drives the way, and i believe, it's this very fundamental pure desire that is extinguished in the end akin to the 'rod used to stir the funeral pyre being cast finally into the pyre itself' (bhagavAn's analogy)
s./Friends,
To say that Nishkama karma is possible only for Jnanis-carrying this forward,Whether Karma can be attributed to the jnanis ?Nishkama Karma is certainly possible and within the range of the average seeker-Any service done with Love is Nishkama only and it is certainly possible to do this without any expectation whatsoever.The Joy that one derives from such acts does not disqualify it from being called 'Nishkama'.Nishkama means not tinged with desire.
Desire has a different quality of 'vibration' to it than Love.The former dissipates Vital energy whereas the later conserves it.Desire is opposed to status Quo,whereas Love revels in status quo.Desire can be fanned and fueled but Love cannot increase or diminish,cannot be stimulated.
Certainly this does call for a deeper mode of living.The prelude to this is to do all activities with a sense of Equanimity-to take ups and downs in the stride.Karma is for ordinary mortals a necessity and Nishkama Karma is recommended for all earnest aspirants.This works in a cyclic fashion.Nishkama Karma purifies the mind and a Purified mind enables the aspirant to do Nishkama Karma.
Namaskar
Papaji on the gunas:
Q. Do we have a choice between [the path of] Atma Kripa (Grace of the Self) and Guru Kripa (Grace of the Guru)?
Papaji: Your temperament will choose for you. If you try to make a choice that is opposed to your temperament, it will not work. It's in your bones. The path you choose and follow will be a consequence of your temperament. There are three gunas - call them qualities of mind - that govern character and personality: satvva [purity, harmony], rajas [activity] and tamas [dullness, sloth]. These gunas will drive your behavior; they will direct you along the path that is most suited to your temperament. If you are dominated by rajas, you will be attracted by activity. You will be drawn to activities such as yoga or tantra, things that will keep you busy. Such people are always thinking, "I can do it. I have to do it." People with this guna end up doing therapy and yoga, things that will keep them busy and occupied. This is not so bad because 95% of the people in the world are in tamas. They don't do anything at all. They live and die without coming to this spiritual line at all.
If you are in sattva, you are a focused person. You will have a sharp discrimination and you will be able to find the Self by being still, without thought, rather than by rushing around, looking for it.
You cannot choose your guna anymore than you can choose your genes. Your genes are the result of thousands of generations o physical reproduction. Your guna is likewise the result of thousands of lifetimes of experiences. Your genes decide the way you look, you don't have any choice in the matter. Your guna determines the quality of your mind, and this is just as determined as your genes.
Arjuna, the warrior, tried to deny his nature on the battlefield when he said that he was not doing to fight, but Krishna told him that he had no choice in the matter. That is how it is.
'It is said by the great ones that the divine trait of sattva is the enduring quality of the mind, whereas the traits of rajas and tamas are unnatural and therefore can be changed. it is also said that association with the wise is the means for effecting this transformation'
hj
s/Ravi/friends, Could you possibly give some more material on tamasic bhakti. This is the first time I am learning of this type of bhakti.
When there's no where to go,
the concept of arrival has
no function.
People everywhere scurry about,
supporting this or that view,
forming pretty pictures,
striving to get ahead.
I alone live contentedly in
disappointment.
With no illusions to call home,
peace is beginningless and endless.
Dan
Somehow, I can't demand anything from Him. I had heard about devotees fighting and all, but first of i dint know its called tamasic bhakti, secondly, I dont get it howmuch ever I try. When I try following it, I do start fighting and after a couple of sentences/charges against Him, I find myself down on kness, begging for His Grace etc. It somehow is not my cuppa tea.
salutations to all:
kandhan: am not of the 'surrender' type and i don't know enough to explain someone what tAmasic bhaktI is :-) the only thing i sort-of understand, a little bit, is vichAra and mathematics. ravi, i hope, would post a beautiful explanation on the same. nonetheless, let me ask you (& everybody else here): have you ever wanted desperately to be free? have you ever longed for god so deeply that you felt your heart may burst? then you also would have felt hopeless & helpless; you would have then got irritated or frustrated enough to doubt all this talk about self &/or god; you would have wanted to dismiss the whole thing as yet another sophisticated piece of human imagination etc etc etc...
if you have, then the desperation that ensues, the longing for one glimpse of the beloved, just once, the unfathomable desire for a single timeless moment of abidance in the self, then that what engulfs you then is what i consider as tAmasic bhaktI. have a re-look at what sri rAmakrishNa (thakur) did before that blessed vision, what bhagavAn did when he resolved to solve it once and for all. for me, that's tAmasic bhaktI.
salutations to all:
ravi & others: a jnAnI has no karma because karma can only belong to the ego, isn't it? but the way a jnAnI conducts himself, that alone, in my humble opinion, is nishkAma karma. as long as there is the least vestige of the ego, the 'I', one can only make efforts to 'try doing' nishkAma karma. to try doing is not the same as truly doing. all of you must have seen the graph of exp(-x) or e^(-x) on the cartesian x-y plane. as x increases, the function comes closer & closer to the horizontal axis but ever remaining an asymptote, i.e., never really touching the x-axis. likewise, as long as there is the 'e' of ego, one can only try coming closer to the ideal but never really being the ideal :-)
take vichAra - when we say we are doing vichAra, it always means we are "trying" to do vichAra, not "doing" vichAra per se! for, if someone actually does vichAra, like the way bhagavAn did, the work will be over, period. likewise, when someone says 'my path is that of surrender', he/she only implies, he/she is "trying" to surrender and not actually 'surrendered', for if one has indeed surrendered, there's nothing whatsoever to be done anymore! the same is for nishkAma karma. there are gradations in 'trying to do vichAra', none in 'doing it'. there are gradations in the ego 'trying to love', or being less attached, none in love. the ego, by definition, can't love!
moreover, when most of us try doing nishkAma karma, it's almost always because of the conditioning of what we have read, and it isn't natural or spontaneous. on the other hand, if an illiterate man, totally guileless, unknown to the viles of the world does something spontaneously, then there am atleast willing to concede that he/she is nearest to doing detached action, for the rest of us, it's just a smart way of abnegating a penny today in order to posses a pound later!! and that can be generalised to all sAdhana. the purpose of sAdhana, i surmise, is to realise through sAdhana that all sAdhana is useless. when this crystal clear awareness, i repeat, through sAdhana, arises, then shall emerge the enquiry or surrender that sets one free :-) (this is neither an intellectual nor an emotional process)
i believe, it's for this very reason that bhagavAn almost never preferred anyone to overdo any exclusive service to him because the devotee can easily be in the illusion of 'selflessly serving the master' but the master very well knows that the devotee/disciple does whatever he does because he wishes to be in the same 'state' in which his master abides. is there anything wrong with that? not at all, but it's important to not delude oneself. thus did bhagavAn say, perhaps more than once, that the best service that one can offer one's gurU is by realising the self :-) detached action or true love or perfect wisdom are mere incidental effects of that freedom
s.,
I have to disagree on this take on nishkama Karma-there is no 'trying' in all this.When Love is there (not attachment,which is mistaken for Love)Whatever is done is smply done without any expectation whatsoever.This is a matter of simple experience and I have to say that this is possble for the average seeker.It is not as if that one has to try hard to do Nishkama Karma.Love is a state of being,and cannot be selective,cannot be directed at a particular person.Whatever one does from this state is Nishkama Karma only.
To say 'Sarve Janaha Sukhino Bhavanthu'(May All be happy) is also Nishkama Karma only,not that one should be involved in Physical activity.Whatever thought,Action Proceeds out of this state of being is Nishkama.
Just like the act of Praying is a spontaneous act-just like it is vastly different than 'trying' to pray(this is a mental exercise),same way Nishkama Karma is vastly different than 'trying' to act without desire(a mere mental definition!).
Namaskar.
S. everything you said made sense to me, but then I think you said, which struck me perhaps not correct, that the purpose of all sadhana is to realize all sadhana is useless. Given my recent experiences, I don't think that's the case. Alot of my sadhana is not the most fruit bearing. But sometimes when I do the discrimination correctly, or in terms of gradations, more correctly, I find myself in an ocean of bliss. And I don't think
when i discriminate that my senses, and mind do not present to me myself, it's not useless. There are instant results.
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from the gospel of Sri Ramakrishna where the master makes a distinction between what he calls 'wicked I' and the 'Ego of the Devotee'.
"The "wicked I"
"The 'I' that makes one a worldly person and attaches one to 'woman and gold' is
the 'wicked I'. The intervention of this ego creates the difference between jiva
and Atman. Water appears to be divided into two parts if one puts a stick across it.
But in reality there is only one water. It appears as two on account of the stick.
This 'I' is the stick. Remove the stick and there remains only one water as before.
"Now, what is this 'wicked I'? It is the ego that says: 'What? Don't they know
me? I have so much money! Who is wealthier than I?' If a thief robs such a man of
only ten rupees, first of all he wrings the money out of the thief, then he gives him
a good beating. But the matter doesn't end there: the thief is handed over to the
police and is eventually sent to jail. The 'wicked I' says: 'What? Doesn't the rogue
know whom he has robbed? To steal my ten rupees! How dare he?' "
VIJAY: "If without destroying the 'I' a man cannot get rid of attachment to the
world and consequently cannot experience samadhi, then it would be wise for him to
follow the path of Brahmajnana to attain samadhi. If the 'I' persists in the path of
devotion, then one should rather choose the path of knowledge."
The "servant I"
MASTER: "It is true that one or two can get rid of the 'I' through samadhi; but
these cases are very rare. You may indulge in thousands of reasonings, but still the
'I' comes back. You may cut the peepal-tree to the very root today, but you will
notice a sprout springing up tomorrow. Therefore if the 'I' must remain, let the
rascal remain as the 'servant I'. As long as you live, you should say, 'O God, Thou
art the Master and I am Thy servant.' The 'I' that feels, 'I am the servant of God,
231
I am His devotee' does not injure one. Sweet things cause acidity of the stomach,
no doubt, but sugar candy is an exception."
-----------------------------------
What the master says in the above passage is not pious talk.He is clearly distinguishing between the vital being(the seat of desire) and the psychic being or soul(the seat of love).The psychic being(Sri Aurobindo's terminlogy!)is the seat of Love and Bhakti,felt deep behind the Heart centre(not the heart in Sri Bhagavan's terminlogy).The psychic being often makes its presence felt in the form of a longing and sweet sadness(these are the colourations of the 'Vital' being influenced by the psychic).The longing and sadness are the initial intimations and as it deepens,they give way to a quiet confidence and love and trust that is the very nature of the psychic being which puts one into direct relationship with the divine within.
This may appear mystifying but it is quite natural and simple enough.
The psychic being (or the soul)is free from desire and is spontaneously capable of Nishkama Karma.
All the 'desperations' and 'revolts' are still part of the 'Vital'being .These are like the smoke that surround the Flame.The Flame by itself can burn without the smoke if allowed to.
More later.
Namaskar.
When one does not understand death, life can be very confusing. If our
body really belonged to us, it would obey our commands. If we say
"Don't get old," or "I forbid you to get sick," does it obey us? No, it
takes no notice. We only rent this house, not own it. If we thing it
belongs to us, we will suffer when we have to leave it. But in reality,
there is no such thing as a permanent self, nothing solid or unchanging
that we can hold on to.
Buddha made a distinction between ultimate truth and conventional
truth. The idea of a self is merely a concept - a convention -
American, Thai, teacher, student, all are conventions. Ultimately no
one exists, only earth, fire, water, and air - elements that have
combined temporarily. We call the body a person, my self, but
ultimately there is no me, there is only anatta, not-self. To
understand not-self, you have to meditate. If you only intellectualize,
your head will explode. Once you understand not-self in your heart, the
burden of life will be lifted. Your family life, your work, everything
will be much easier. When you see beyond self, you no longer cling to
happiness, you can begin to be truly happy.
Ajaan Chah
kandhan,
The tamasic Bhakti is just another terminology for what is called 'nindha stuti' or abusive prayer.
Why Sri Ramakrishna calls it 'tamasic' whereas the whole thing smacks of 'Rajasic' activity.The reason is that when the seeker is almost completely cutoff from the divine-it is utmost darkness of the soul-this is not the same as tamas per se-but what sri Ramakrishna calls as the tamasic tinge on satva.(We need to remember that all gunas are 'degrees' only-there is always a mixture.The preponderance of the guna is what determines the characteristic of the individual at that particular moment).
There are two ways of tackling this-one is the quiet way of remembrance;the other is (depending on the individual)to channelise the 'frustration' or 'desperation' towards the divine-through a Ninda's Stuti,etc.
It has to be said that this is only a passing phase and one soon outgrows this sort of a manifestation.When the 'Faith' element grows,one knows that despite the dense darkness,Mother is around and the child does not create a 'scene'.
Namaskar.
s, i see from your last post (which is very insightful) that your self-awareness is advanced and subtle. Since we are on nishkaama karma, let me add something: AFAIK i heard of nishkaama karma from gita in which Krishna asks arjun to attribute the outcome of all actions to him. Now, i believe thats possible through total surrender. Or as s has put it, 'trying to total surrender'. if u consider it in this context, nishkaama karma is an oxymoron. Maharishi has time and again emphasisised that all the happenings around Him are automatic. i would just like to add that even the desire for action has to be attributed to Arunachala.
s.,
I agree with you on nishkama karma. As Kandhan said, its probably prpbably an oxymoron as such :-)
But I disagree with this:
"take vichAra - when we say we are doing vichAra, it always means we are "trying" to do vichAra, not "doing" vichAra per se! for, if someone actually does vichAra, like the way bhagavAn did, the work will be over, period. likewise, when someone says 'my path is that of surrender', he/she only implies, he/she is "trying" to surrender and not actually 'surrendered', for if one has indeed surrendered, there's nothing whatsoever to be done anymore!"
IMO, there is no "trying" in anything. Its a switch you either enquire or u dont. Or in other words, if we are "trying" self-enquiry, i wud term it as not doing self enquiry or as not doing enquiry the right way.
All said and done, its all game of words!
salutations to all:
maneesha/seekers: so long as there is effort, there can only be trying. though all worldly analogies fall short, and thus can serve to be mere indicators, yet let me say this: when one is learning to play an instrument, there is a lot of effort and one is then only trying to learn the instrument. but persistent, tenacious, dedicated efforts will lead such a novice to a day (it can't be measured) when the music flows out effortlessly, and at that instant the musician is no longer trying to play :-) so is the case with vichAra. bhagavAn recommended self-enquiry to be done at all times, but when can such a thing happen? only when the initial efforts, or 'trying', have purified the mind enough for it to naturally & 'effortlessly' turn to vichAra the moment it isn't occupied with any work. if one has reached such a state when vichAra just happens then i will concede that one is doing vichAra.
you also believe in 'partial surrender', don't you? if sAdhana is akin to an 'on-off switch', then partial surrender, which i don't accept, is meaningless :-) vichAra is 'done' and not 'tried' only when the mind, though not yet annihilated, has begun to rest in the source. our attempts at enquiry where the question can't even be sustained for even a few minutes with undivided attention, can only be 'trying'! hahahahaha
Friends,
An excerpt from Sri Aurobindo's 'Synthesis of Yoga':
It is a common error to suppose that action is impossible
or at least meaningless without desire. If desire ceases, we are
told, action also must cease. But this, like other too simply comprehensive
generalisations, is more attractive to the cutting and
defining mind than true. The major part of the work done in
the universe is accomplished without any interference of desire;
it proceeds by the calm necessity and spontaneous law of
Nature. Even man constantly does work of various kinds by a
spontaneous impulse, intuition, instinct or acts in obedience to
a natural necessity and law of forces without either mental planning
or the urge of a conscious vital volition or emotional desire.
Often enough his act is contrary to his intention or his desire; it
proceeds out of him in subjection to a need or compulsion, in
submission to an impulse, in obedience to a force in him that
pushes for self-expression or in conscious pursuance of a higher
principle. Desire is an additional lure to which Nature has given
a great part in the life of animated beings in order to produce a
certain kind of rajasic action necessary for her intermediate ends;
but it is not her sole or even her chief engine. It has its great use
while it endures: it helps us to rise out of inertia, it contradicts
many tamasic forces which would otherwise inhibit action. But
the seeker who has advanced far on the way of works has passed
beyond this intermediate stage in which desire is a helpful engine.
Its push is no longer indispensable for his action, but is rather
a terrible hindrance and source of stumbling, inefficiency and
failure. Others are obliged to obey a personal choice or motive,
but he has to learn to act with an impersonal or a universal
mind or as a part or an instrument of an infinite Person. A
calm indifference, a joyful impartiality or a blissful response to
a divine Force, whatever its dictate, is the condition of his doing
any effective work or undertaking any worth-while action. Not
desire, not attachment must drive him, but a Will that stirs in
a divine peace, a Knowledge that moves from the transcendent
Light, a glad Impulse that is a force from the supreme Ananda."
...to be continued....
Friends,
....Sri Aurobindo continued...
"Often, we see this desire of personal salvation overcome by
another attraction which also belongs to the higher turn of our
nature and which indicates the essential character of the action
the liberated soul must pursue. It is that which is implied in the
great legend of the Amitabha Buddha who turned away when
his spirit was on the threshold of Nirvana and took the vow
never to cross it while a single being remained in the sorrow
(page-270 The Yoga of Divine Works in Synthesis of Yoga)
and the Ignorance. It is that which underlies the sublime verse
of the Bhagavata Purana, “I desire not the supreme state with
all its eight siddhis nor the cessation of rebirth; may I assume
the sorrow of all creatures who suffer and enter into them so
that they may be made free from grief.” It is that which inspires
a remarkable passage in a letter of Swami Vivekananda. “I have
lost all wish for my salvation,” wrote the great Vedantin, “may I
be born again and again and suffer thousands of miseries so that
I may worship the only God that exists, the only God I believe in,
the sum-total of all souls,—and above all, my God the wicked,
my God the miserable, my God the poor of all races, of all species
is the special object of my worship. He who is the high and low,
the saint and the sinner, the god and the worm, Him worship,
the visible, the knowable, the real, the omnipresent; In whom there is neither past life nor future birth,
nor death nor going nor coming, in whom we always have been
and always will be one, Him worship; break all other idols.”
....continued......
Friends,
....Sri Aurobindo continued....
"The last two sentences contain indeed the whole gist of the
matter. The true salvation or the true freedom from the chain of
rebirth is not the rejection of terrestrial life or the individual’s
escape by a spiritual self-annihilation, even as the true renunciation
is not the mere physical abandonment of family and society;
it is the inner identification with the Divine in whom there is no
limitation of past life and future birth but instead the eternal
existence of the unborn Soul. He who is free inwardly, even
doing actions, does nothing at all, says the Gita; for it is Nature
that works in him under the control of the Lord of Nature.
Equally, even if he assumes a hundred times the body, he is free
from any chain of birth or mechanical wheel of existence since
he lives in the unborn and undying spirit and not in the life of
the body. Therefore attachment to the escape from rebirth is one
of the idols which, whoever keeps, the sadhaka of the integral
Yoga must break and cast away from him. For his Yoga is not
limited to the realisation of the Transcendent beyond all world
by the individual soul; it embraces also the realisation of the
Universal, “the sum-total of all souls”, and cannot therefore be
confined to the movement of a personal salvation and escape.
Even in his transcendence of cosmic limitations he is still one
with all in God; a divine work remains for him in the universe.
-----------------------------------
The above is a clear statement that rebirth on the physical plane is quite possible for a Jnani and that such a blessed one may also have action to perform.
This is what Sri Ramakrishna has also affirmed by saying that the iswara kotis can grace this world to help other souls-that they return over and over again for this purpose.
This is what Sri Krishna has also said in the Bhagavad Gita.
This is not the same as the rebirth of a jiva koti who is caught in the wheel of Karma and is under compulsion to be reborn.
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
s./maneesha,
" if someone actually does vichAra, like the way bhagavAn did, the work will be over"
The fallacy here is to consider self enquiry as a 'Process' and Self Realization as a 'Result'.
That this is an act,repeatable by others and if they do not get the 'Result' they are not 'doing it properly'.
Nisarga dutta Maharaj took 3 years,and x might have taken y years,etc,etc.
None of the Masters claimed that it was a result of anything they did.
Thank God that he did not design this form of a drudgery;He did not reduce life to a simple formula which when cracked ,the 'puzzle' is over.
-----------------------------------
Sri Ramakrishna used to tell the story -A few folks had gathered in a country pub.one man was served a peg and he became tipsy with that single peg.Others wondered how this man managed this with a single peg.As they were chatting and discussing the man ,the shop keeper said-'Well you all came just now.That man has been here since yesterday night.This is not his first peg!"
Now just because it is not our 'last peg' does not mean that we are not 'Drinking' or that it is not 'wine'.we all may have different capacities and pace of drinking.
Namaskar.
Only the words of jnanis have I found helpful. Only those fully established in the Self, have I found able to guide beyond the ego. No one else really Knows.
David,
on pg 56 of “Be As You Are”, you state that the question “Who am I?” is merely an “aid” to shift attention towards the ‘I’.
At the top of pg 58 you say that Ramana says, “question (the ‘I’) to find out what it is”.
This directive gives me the impression self-enquiry is potent in at least 2 ways, 1] as you state, a tool for shifting attention and 2], the act of enquiry and investigation into the ‘I’ somehow dismantles or dissolves the ‘I’ and the attachments sustaining it.
Is point 2] a reasonable assertion or am I over-thinking?
Thank you.
s,
"if one has reached such a state when vichAra just happens then i will concede that one is doing vichAra."
I understand what you are 'trying' to say!so 'trying' is also 'doing' if there is no split in 'thought' and 'action'.
Carrying forward the music anology,mastering the 'mechanics' of the instrument is onething-here one proceeds from a conscious incompetence,to conscious competence and onto unconscious competence(where the mind need not be careful in thinking over micro details).All this is part of 'technique' only-one may say that one has mastered the instrument(in our case and context,it is the 'mind').The 'Music' was never in the instrument,it is within us;unless one hears the music within,there is no possibility of playing 'music' however efficient one may be technically.
This is what Sri Aurobindo expresses so beautifully.
"The lotus of the eternal knowledge and the eternal perfection is a bud closed and folded up within us. It opens swiftly or gradually, petal by petal, through successive realisations, once the mind of man begins to turn towards the Eternal, once his heart, no longer compressed and confined by attachment to finite appearances, becomes enamoured, in whatever degree, of the Infinite. All life, all thought, all energising of the faculties, all experiences passive or active, become thenceforward so many shocks which disintegrate the teguments of the soul and remove the obstacles to the inevitable efflorescence. He who chooses the Infinite has been chosen by the Infinite. He has received the divine touch without which there is no awakening, no opening of the spirit; but once it is received, attainment is sure, whether conquered swiftly in the course of one human life or pursued patiently through many stadia of the cycle of existence in the manifested universe.
Nothing can be taught to the mind which is not already concealed as potential knowledge in the unfolding soul of the creature. So also all perfection of which the outer man is capable, is only a realising of the eternal perfection of the Spirit within him. We know the Divine and become the Divine, because we are That already in our secret nature. All teaching is a revealing, all becoming is an unfolding. Self-attainment is the secret; self-knowledge and an increasing consciousness are the means and the process."
......continued.........
s./Friends,
....Sri Aurobindo continued....
" Always indeed it is the higher Power that acts. Our sense of personal effort and aspiration comes from the attempt of the egoistic mind to identify itself in a wrong and imperfect way with the workings of the divine Force. It persists in applying to experience on a supernormal plane the ordinary terms of mentality which it applies to its normal experiences in the world. In the world we act with the sense of egoism; we claim the universal forces that work in us as our own; we claim as the effect of our personal will, wisdom, force, virtue the selective, formative, progressive action of the Transcendent in this frame of mind, life and body. Enlightenment brings to us the knowledge that the ego is only an instrument; we begin to perceive and feel that these things are our own in the sense that they belong to our supreme and integral Self, one with the Transcendent, not to the instrumental ego. Our limitations and distortions are our contribution to the working; the true power in it is the Divine's. When the human ego realises that its will is a tool, its wisdom ignorance and childishness, its power an infant's groping, its virtue a pretentious impurity, and learns to trust itself to that which transcends it, that is its salvation. The apparent freedom and self-assertion of our personal being to which we are so profoundly attached, conceal a most pitiable subjection to a thousand suggestions, impulsions, forces which we have made extraneous to our little person. Our ego, boasting of freedom, is at every moment the slave, toy and puppet of countless beings, powers, forces, influences in universal Nature. The self-abnegation of the ego in the Divine is its self-fulfillment; its surrender to that which transcends it is its liberation from bonds and limits and its perfect freedom. "
.......continued......
s./Friends,
....Sri Aurobindo continued....
" But still, in the practical development, each of the three stages has its necessity and utility and must be given its time or its place. It will not do, it cannot be safe or effective to begin with the last and highest alone. It would not be the right course, either, to leap prematurely from one to another. For even if from the beginning we recognise in mind and heart the Supreme, there are elements of the nature which long prevent the recognition from becoming realisation. But without realisation our mental belief cannot become a dynamic reality; it is still only a figure of knowledge, not a living truth, an idea, not yet a power. And even if realisation has begun, it may be dangerous to imagine or to assume too soon that we are altogether in the hands of the Supreme or are acting as his instrument. That assumption may introduce a calamitous falsity; it may produce a helpless inertia or, magnifying the movements of the ego with the Divine Name, it may disastrously distort and ruin the whole course of the Yoga. There is a period, more or less prolonged, of internal effort and struggle in which the individual will has to reject the darkness and distortions of the lower nature and to put itself resolutely or vehemently on the side of the divine Light. The mental energies, the heart's emotions, the vital desires, the very physical being have to be compelled into the right attitude or trained to admit and answer to the right influences. It is only then, only when this has been truly done, that the surrender of the lower to the higher can be effected, because the sacrifice has become acceptable.
The personal will of the Sadhaka has first to seize on the egoistic energies and turn them towards the light and the right; once turned, he has still to train them to recognise that always, always to accept, always to follow that. Progressing, he learns, still using the personal will, personal effort, personal energies, to employ them as representatives of the higher Power and in conscious obedience to the higher Influence. Progressing yet farther, his will, effort, energy become no longer personal and separate, but activities of that higher Power and Influence at work in the individual. But there is still a sort of gulf of distance which necessitates an obscure process of transit, not always accurate, sometimes even very distorting, between the divine Origin and the emerging human current. At the end of the progress, with the progressive disappearance of egoism and impurity and ignorance, this last separation is removed; all in the individual becomes the divine working. "
-----------------------------------
The above passage gives a rough road map(indicative)of the progression of sadhana.In this sense all 'trying' is also doing-
Kandhan had added a last line in his post:
"i would just like to add that even the desire for action has to be attributed to Arunachala. "
s.,I do not think that there is any fundamental difference in what we are 'trying' to express;it is only the 'shift' in emphasis.
The 'Nishkama karma' is a very effective way for purification for those persoanlity types in whom there is no split between thought and action.They are the 'doers';others may be 'thinkers','lovers',etc.To the extent one is in a position to take advantage of one's swadharma(inherent trait and potential)it is all sadhana only.
Thanks very much.
Namaskar.
Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Volume I
26th January, 1936
Talk 146. (concluded)
Devotee: The difficulty is to be in the thought-free state.
Maharshi: Leave the thought-free state to itself. Do not think of it as pertaining to you. Just as when you walk, you involuntarily take steps, so too in your actions; but the thought-free state is not affected by your actions.
D.: What is it that is discriminative in action?
M.: Discrimination will be automatic, intuitive.
D.: So Intuition alone matters; Intuition develops also.
M.: Those who have discovered great Truths have done so in the still
depths of the Self.
The ego is like one's shadow thrown on the ground. If one attempts
to bury it, it will be foolish. The Self is only one. If limited it is the
ego. If unlimited it is Infinite and is the Reality.
The bubbles are different from one another and numerous, but the
ocean is only one. Similarly the egos are many, whereas the Self
is one and only one.
When told that you are not the ego, realise the Reality. Why do you
still identify yourself with the ego? It is like saying, "Don't think
of the monkey while taking medicine" - it is impossible. Similarly
it happens with common folk. When the Reality is mentioned why
do you continue to meditate Sivoham or Aham Brahmasmi? The
significance must be traced and understood. It is not enough to
repeat the bare words or think of them.
Reality is simply the loss of the ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its
identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish
and Reality will shine forth by itself. This is the direct method.
Whereas all other methods are done, only retaining the ego. In those
paths there arise so many doubts and the eternal question remains
to be tackled finally. But in this method the final question is the
only one and it is raised from the very beginning. No sadhanas are
necessary for engaging in this quest.
There is no greater mystery than this - viz., ourselves being the
Reality we seek to gain Reality. We think that there is something
hiding our Reality and that it must be destroyed before the Reality
is gained. It is ridiculous. A day will dawn when you will yourself
laugh at your past efforts. That which will be on the day you laugh
is also here and now.
D.: So it is a great game of pretending?
M.: Yes.
In Yoga Vasishtha it is said, "What is Real is hidden from us, but what
is false, is revealed as true." We are actually experiencing the Reality
only; still, we do not know it. Is it not a wonder of wonders?
The quest "Who am I?" is the axe with which to cut off the ego.
S.,
Well, I dont know if I beleive in partial surrender because I dont know that path. Logically(because i dont have experience in this), partial surrender can be beleived; as u give thoughts about something; you give up one branch of thoughts - but i dont beleive in "trying" to surrender.
As reagards to enquiry, all i know is we either enquire or we dont. We the mind is conducive, u can. Else, u can't. Trying for me, is trying to make mind conducive to enquiry. If the enquiry is done the right way, we hit the bull's eye. Most of times we do not do it the right way because of objectifying the Self. Only when we can "Be", is when the enquiry is right. Till then, its all the wrong way.
To put it in physical terms, say I am asked try to drop a pencil. I either drop it or i dont. There is no in between state. There is no trying.
Of course, this is what is my opinion, my point of view. As said before, its all the game of words. The principal is same, the words used or the name given is different.
This band that I like, an old British punk band with very inspiring political lyrics. I get that it's unimportant who is and who isn't enlightened. (at an earlier time in life, he had a similar impact on me to Ramana Maharshi) But I didn't know how someone could write lyrics like that, unless they were enlightened, and they had such a profound impact on me. They played in Portland, and I went with friends, and everything transpired very perfectly. They wouldn't let me in with my backpack, and immediately another friend showed up (biking down the road, and not going to the show, just happened to be there) and offered to take it. I listen to Nome alot, and try to be in the most blissful transcendent state. And Dick (the lead singer) is someone that I've thought that he could be a jnani. I'm not saying he is, much less then it is important. But I wondered if something interesting might happened if my inquiry was deep and I was there. Like he might notice me in some way. Non-essential things to this story happened, but they were going to play, so we went downstairs from the bar, there were maybe 500 people in this concert space. Dick suddenly appeared about 15 feet in front of me, hugging people, looking the other way, and I tried to point him out to my friends, but they were immersed in eachother, and didn't pay attention. Immediately he made a B-line to me, stood in front of me for about 5 seconds, like expecting me to say something, but didn't give me a chance to formulate the words, walked straight out a door with purpose, and next thing I knew he was on stage. It effected me deeply. It reminded me a little of some of the stories of sages. Because it really hit me deep in the heart, that he did that. But he also didn't give me what my ego wanted, which was a conversation with him.
Friends,
I wish to dwell on some of the objections that I keep encountering
on pursuing activities -what are called 'Social service'or 'Helping another'.
The Principal objections are:
1.It is plain Ignorance to think that one can help another.
2.The life of each and every individual is preordained and cannot be altered by the 'help' of another.If it is altered ,that also is preordained!
3.The law of Karma is inexorable and a person cannot do much to alter his fate.How can 'another' attempt to alter that?
4.Rather than focussing on helping
'Others',one should first help oneself.Otherwise one is bound to be caught up in the net of 'Ignorant' activity that will neither help the 'other' nor oneself.
5.It is plain vanity that drives one to 'help' others.A sadhaka should eschew this and focus on Self Realization.
6.There are no 'others'.It is plain ignorance to think of 'others',when what exists is the Self.Just be the Self and the problem of 'others' will not be there.It is just that one imagines all this.The entire universe ,with all its beings is a Dream existence.Why think of 'helping'?
7.Leave it all to God.It is upto him to take care of the creatures.
As may be seen,some of the above statements refer to the one who needs 'help' and the others refer to the one who is willing to render that 'help'.
In the Tirukkural,the Sage Valluvar defines true friendship:
Like the hand that rushes to hold the loose towel in place,such is Friendship that relieves the pain(of a friend).
He also uses the word 'friendship'(Natpu) in the widest sense,as a sort of 'kinship.
Against this backdrop,I wish to recall an incident from the Life of Swami Vivekananda.
.....Continued.....
Friends,
......Vivekananda continued...
The preacher was a little abashed and said: "Yes, what you say is true, but the Shâstras say that the cow is our mother."
Swamiji smilingly said, "Yes, that the cow is our mother, I understand: who else could give birth to such accomplished children?"
The up-country preacher did not speak further on the subject; perhaps he could not understand the point of Swamiji's poignant ridicule. He told Swamiji that he was begging something of him for the objects of the society.
Swamiji: I am a Sannyasin, a fakir. Where shall I find money enough to help you? But if ever I get money in my possession, I shall first spend that in the service of man. Man is first to be saved; he must be given food, education, and spirituality. If any money is left after doing all these, then only something would be given to your society.
At these words, the preacher went away after saluting Swamiji. Then Swamiji began to speak to us: "What words, these, forsooth! Says he that men are dying by reason of their Karma, so what avails doing any kindness to them! This is decisive proof that the country has gone to rack and ruin! Do you see how much abused the Karma theory of your Hinduism has been? Those who are men and yet have no feeling in the heart for man, well, are such to be counted as men at all?" While speaking these words, Swamiji's whole body seemed to shiver in anguish and grief. "
We have seen how Sri Bhagavan always insisted on feeding the poor,how this continues to this day.
We do know that we cannot 'help' others.Does it mean that we have to be indifferent to others' sufferings?
Namaskar.
Friends,
.....Vivekananda Story....
"When Narendra Babu had departed, an enthusiastic preacher belonging to the society for the protection of cows came for an interview with Swamiji. He was dressed almost like a Sannyasin, if not fully so — with a Geruâ turban on the head; he was evidently an up-country Indian. At the announcement of this preacher of cow-protection Swamiji came out to the parlour room. The preacher saluted Swamiji and presented him with a picture of the mother-cow. Swamiji took that in his hand and, making it over to one standing by, commenced the following conversation with the preacher:
Swamiji: What is the object of your society?
Preacher: We protect the mother-cows of our country from the hands of the butcher. Cow-infirmaries have been founded in some places where the diseased, decrepit mother-cows or those bought from the butchers are provided for.
Swamiji: That is very good indeed. What is the source of your income?
Preacher: The work of the society is carried on only by gifts kindly made by great men like you.
Swamiji: What amount of money have you now laid by?
Preacher: The Marwari traders' community are the special supporters of this work. They have given a big amount for this good cause.
Swamiji: A terrible famine has now broken out in Central India. The Indian Government has published a death-roll of nine lakhs of starved people. Has your society done anything to render help in this time of famine?
Preacher: We do not help during famine or other distresses. This society has been established only for the protection of mother-cows.
Swamiji: During a famine when lakhs of people, your own brothers and sisters, have fallen into the jaws of death, you have not thought it your duty, though having the means, to help them in that terrible calamity with food!
Preacher: No. This famine broke out as a result of men's Karma, their sins. It is a case of "like Karma, like fruit".
Hearing the words of the preacher, sparks of fire, as it were, scintillated in Swamiji's large eyes; his face became flushed. But he suppressed his feeling and said: "Those associations which do not feel sympathy for men and, even seeing their own brothers dying from starvation, do not give them a handful of rice to save their lives, while giving away piles of food to save birds and beasts, I have not the least sympathy for, and I do not believe that society derives any good from them. If you make a plea of Karma by saying that men die through their Karma, then it becomes a settled fact that it is useless to try or struggle for anything in this world; and your work for the protection of animals is no exception. With regard to your cause also, it can be said — the mother-cows through their own Karma fall into the hands of the butchers and die, and we need not do anything in the matter."
......continued........
Friends,
It is said that the Jnani,by his very presence helps the world.Now how does this presence help a Hungry man?As Swami Vivekananda used to say-"A Hungry man would like to see God in the form of a Roti(Indian Bread)".
Going by Sri Bhagavan's personal example,we do see how he has inspired receptive souls and how till date all such activities are sustained in Sri Ramanasramam and elsewhere.
Having discussed Nishkama Karma,does it matter whether the feeding of the poor is Nishkama or otherwise.As long as their hunger is appeased for that 'moment',it is alright.Now,some may think that this is a negative act that encourages 'inactivity and idleness'.I have thought about it-Why Link the 'Hunger' along with 'Idleness'?
Man is perhaps the only creature that has to 'Earn' his Food!All other creatures do not have to earn;Ofcourse they fight for it but that is another matter.
Man is responsible for creating this paradigm of 'having to earn' for Food,and linking this fundamental need with 'special Effort' and attaching 'value' to this sort of 'hardwork'.
Sanatana Dharma nicely balances the position-It says'Wretched is the man who has to beg for Food.Unfortunate is the man who cannot provide it.'.It further adds that Blessed is the man who offers food to the needy without being asked.
How Sri Bhagavan used to insist that the Food should reach the last person in the queue!
It is also useful to examine whether we have substituted a glorious form of self centredness and calling it Sadhana.It will be useful to see if we have progressed on the path by considering other's needs as our own.This is a surer yardstick to measure the extent we are free from egocentric activity.
This is what Nishkama Karma is all about-why bother whether the 'Ego' is there are not?In any case,if one has a strong conviction that it is unreal,why bother about it?
Namaskar.
salutations to all:
it's funny &don't know how to say it, but let me try - "i was walking down a long road till i saw at a distance a few people caught up in severe winds, nearly a storm. it sort-of appeared am not far from where the winds were blowing at such high speeds & i was surprised indeed to see that it was totally calm and still where i stood despite being at such a seemingly short distance from those fierce winds! was curious and started walking towards the storm. it was some kind of a fence a part of which was now visible to me. the curiousity kept increasing and my pace began to hasten towards the source of this storm. as i got nearer, saw many circles of light encircling the source, but the source itself was almost invisible. guessed that perhaps this source with its 'light' circles was spinning, or some such thing, at a great velocity that perhaps was the cause of the raging & lashing winds, so i surmised. no one was in sight. then i saw a small hut kind of a thing a little away. was glad to see a man sitting there near a window. while resting my eyes on the mysterious object of my attention, approached the man beside the window and asked him what this is, and he replied 'oh, don't you know, it's aruNAchalA'."!!!
was startled and woke up. it was around 6.30 am in the morning. the whole sight was extremely vivid and also realised that it was a dream from which i had woken on hearing 'aruNAchalA'! :-) just thought of sharing this weird incident with all of you.
Ravi
The Tirukkural verse you quoted a few days ago (verse 788)was also used by Guhai Namasivaya as an image to demonstrate that God responds instantly and automatically to devotees in distress:
See, my heart, when troubles come,
Arunai’s Lord, the skilled One,
will instantly protect His devotees.
He will respond rapidly,
just as the hand will instinctively grasp
a garment that is about to become untied.
You need have no doubt about this.
Arunagiri Malai, verse 69
David,s,Friends,
Thanks very much David for that wonderful verse.
s.,Such dreams are quite symbolic and are meaningful-How the calm is there with you and the storm is nearby and yet does not touch you.How Arunachala is the centre of all that moves and yet itself is immovable.s.,you are blessed indeed.
Here is an example of how sometimes dreams are significant,from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,from the chapter 4-Advice to Householders:
'A devotee's dream'
When the song was over, the Master walked up and down the northeast verandah, where
Hazra was seated with M. The Master sat down there. He asked a devotee, "Do you ever
have dreams?"
DEVOTEE: "Yes, sir. The other day I dreamt a strange dream. I saw the whole world
enveloped in water. There was water on all sides. A few boats were visible, but suddenly
huge waves appeared and sank them. I was about to board a ship with a few others, when
we saw a brahmin walking over that expanse of water. I asked him, 'How can you walk
over the deep?' The brahmin said with a smile: 'Oh, there is no difficulty about that. There
is a bridge under the water.' I said to him, 'Where are you going?' 'To Bhawanipur, the city
of the Divine Mother', he replied. 'Wait a little', I cried. 'I shall accompany you.' "
MASTER: "Oh. I am thrilled to hear the story!"
DEVOTEE: "The brahmin said: 'I am in a hurry. It will take you some time to get out of the
boat. Good-bye. Remember this path and come after me.
MASTER: "Oh, my hair is standing on end! Please be initiated by a guru as soon as
possible."
-----------------------------------
How the Master specifically asked about the Dream,How he tells the Devotee -"Please be initiated by a Guru",as if he is not the Guru!!!
It is easy to guess who the devotee is-"M" himself and he is quite the equal of his Guru in totally effacing himself( in the Gospel.)
Sri Ramakrishna always used to say-"Satchidananda alone is the Guru".
Namaskar.
@anonymous
"To
understand not-self, you have to meditate. If you only intellectualize,
your head will explode." Could you differentiate between these two processes?
@Ravi Thanks for you comments on nindhastuti. Although, you say when the soul is cut off from the divine. What state are you referring to? Is is something similar manolaya? Could you elaborate?
S.,
I can totally associate with what you said. I dreamt of Arunachala when I was in distress in my dreams. They were scray dreams till He appered. I would be so very panicking and then, right then, Arunachala "appears" and the very next moment I woke up. This happened twice, and it does feel great. Both the times, it reminded me of "Guru Kataksha". Once His eyes are set on someone, he will dream no more! How literally so, even here!
That was really awesome verse! What a divinely inspired nectar! Many bows to you David! And of course, to Guhai Namshivaya!
S.,
M wondering who that old man was! :)
Apart from this, I have not yet understood the significance of below two verses. I somehow did not understand what they signify/ what they mean. It would be great if someone could resolves it:
Verse 6 from Arunachala Padikam:
"Lord of my Life!
I have always been at Thy Feet like a frog (which clings) to the
stem of the lotus; make me instead a honey bee which (from the
blossom of the Heart) sucks sweet honey of Pure Consciousness;
then shall I have deliverance. If I lose my life while clinging to
Thy Lotus Feet it will be for Thee a standing column of ignominy,
O Blazing Mountain of Light spreading red rays, O (wide)
Expanse of Grace, more subtle than the ether!"
What is the significance of Honey bee and frgo here? I am not getting it. Also this:
Verse 6 of "Necklet of nine gems:
"‘Killer of Kama’, Thou art always called by Thy votaries. Yes,
that is true. But Lord of Arunachala, I doubt whether this
(name) fits Thee. If it is fitting, how can the mighty Invisible
One (Kama), brave and valiant though he be, dare to creep
into a mind sheltering under Thy Feet, who art his killer?"
I did not get the attitude of Bhagwan here when He doubts the fitness of the name to Arunachala. Is it the "tamasic Bhakti" that He challenges Arunachala?
maneesha/Kandhan/Friends,
The 'Frog' and the 'Bee' metaphor appears in the song of Sri Guru Nanak Dev:
•"Bas jal nit na vasat alee-al maer *cha-chaa* gun rae ||
(O foolish frog) you dwell ever in the water (where the lily blooms), but the bumble bee who dwells not there *hungers - intoxicated* with the fragrance (of the lily) from afar." Guru Nanak SGGS||990
Sri Bhagavan also refers to it when some of the local devotees grumbled that Sri Bhagavan was partial to the Westerners and paying attention and showering his Grace upon them!
One can be very near Physically(External Mind)and yet be unaware;on the other hand one may be faroff physically and yet be drawn by the Fragrance of the Flower in Bloom(Through aspiration).The Pond is full of scum,yet the Lily(The Great one) Blooms rejoicing in the sun(God).The Frogs(Worldly people)neither care for the Fragrance of the Flower ,nor for Sunlight and are satisfied with eating the scum and other insects that grow in the pond(Worldly Pleasures).
The Other verse is a Nindhastuthi -The Key thing about this is that God Being our own,One may take Liberties with God without being misunderstood!The 'Intimacy' grows thus by this attitude-"If I praise,I will Praise you;If I Blame,I will Blame you"-for Praise and Blame are same to God-only in the process of doing all this,the devotee establishes a strong bonding with God and discovers that this relationship is not something that can be done away with-As Andal in Tiruppavai says-"Uraviyal inge Ozhikka Ozhiyadu"-meaning,the relationship in this cannot be destroyed even if attempted!
In Arunachala Akshara Maalai ,sri Bhagavan says the same thing so beautifully:
"When the Sense Robbers Five Enter my Heart,are thou not there Oh!Arunachala"
and he follows it up by this utterly charming verse that shifts the complete responsibility on Arunachala:
"One(without a second),Who can steal in(without your knowing)It is all your Plot,Oh Arunachala"
This is a charming way of saying-Lord,you are all in all-Whatever happens ,happens with your knowledge and consent.Thanks to all this,I will cling to you all the more.
Kandhan- when I say that the devotee is SEEMINGLY cutoff-I am referring to a temporary phase where the devotees heart is running dry-No aspiration,Life appears tasteless,etc.
I suppose you know Tamil-Please refer to Mahakavi Bharatiyar's -"Asai Mugam Marandhu pOchche"(Loving Face Forgotten;To whom shall I disclose this.Love,the Heart has not Obliterated.'.If you lose something of the world,you can approach someone or seek redressal.If you feel cutoff from this treasure,You cannot even express it-for who will understand what you are missing;and what redressal there is in the world for this loss?
This is a temporary phase and one learns to go through this 'dry period' for one will soon discover that nothing is lost and The divine is always there whether one feels the presence or not.
More later.
Namaskar.
"‘Killer of Kama’, Thou art always called by Thy votaries. Yes,
that is true. But Lord of Arunachala, I doubt whether this
(name) fits Thee. If it is fitting, how can the mighty Invisible
One (Kama), brave and valiant though he be, dare to creep
into a mind sheltering under Thy Feet, who art his killer?"
Kama is the god of lust. Kaamaari, the title given to Lord Arunachala in the verse, means 'the killer of lust'. Anangan, another epithet or title for Kama, means 'the bodiless one'. In your translation it is rendered as 'the mighty Invisible One'
What Bhagavan is saying here, in my opinion, is that since a mind which has truly taken refuge at the feet of Arunachala provides no opportunity for Kama to enter, the title 'Killer of Kama' is not quite right. Kama is not 'killed' by Arunachaleswara; he is simply denied any access.
I think this is a little clearer in Prof. Swaminathan's translation of the verse:
'Killer of Kama' is the name by which your lovers always call you. But a doubt arises if this title truly fits you, O Lord of Arunachala. If the title does fit you, how then can this mighty and invisible Kama, though brave and valiant, creep into the mind of one talking shelter at your feet, You, the Killer of Kama.
I have just got back from a family vacation, in the course of which I realized that whether you are thinking of Bhagavan / Arunachala or not, He is constantly 'thinking' of you.
One night on holiday, out of the blue, I had a clear and vivid dream of Arunachala. It was brief, but left me in no doubt.
People say that dreams like these occur when one has been thinking about a particular subject. In this case, I can confidently (and a bit sheepishly)say that I had not been reading or seeing any pictures of Arunachala.
Needless to say, I woke up with a 'sense' of Arunachala - no mental recall of the place or Bhagavan, but a definite sense of It. And it was not fleeting. It stayed with me for the best part of two to three hours.
@Maneesha,
Frog vs Bee:
**********************
A visitor while taking leave of Bhagavan expressed a wish that Bhagavan should keep him in mind as he was going very far away and would probably not come back to the Ashram.
Bhagavan replied:
A jnani has no mind. How can one without a mind remember or even think? This man goes somewhere and I have to go there and look after him? Can I keep on remembering all these prayers? Well, I shall transmit your prayer to the Lord of the Universe. He will look after you. It is his business.
After the devotee departed, Bhagavan turned towards us and said:
People imagine that the devotees crowding around a jnani get special favours from him. If a Guru shows partiality, how can he be a jnani? Is he so foolish as to be flattered by people's attendance on him and the service they do? Does distance matter? The Guru is pleased with him only who gives himself up entirely, who abandons his ego forever. Such a man is taken care of wherever he may be. He need not pray. God looks after him unasked. The frog lives by the side of the fragrant lotus, but it is the bee that gets the honey.
*****************************
Ravi, David, Ramprax,
Thanks a lot for your explanations! I guess I did not get the frog v/s bee because the implicit meaning that the bee gets the bee from the same lotus as to which the frog is merely clinging than enjoying was missed. While the bee gets the "essence" of the lotus, frog is wasting its the valuable flower just to cling. Great! Thanks a lot!
For the kamari verse, it makes more sense now, to me. Firstly, he is denied the access, so the name might not really fit Arunachala. Even if taken that He is kamari, kama will himself not creep into minds of those who have taken refuge in Him as he is scared of the killer. So, obviously, when Bhagavan talks about those who have taken refuge refers to not those who have surrendered partially but completely.
Please correct me if my understanding is wrong. Thanks a lot again, all.
Ramprax,
That was a wonderful account. Can you let us know the source of the account?
David,
I read thru the "Nothing ever happened" series on papaji. Its very inspiring to say the least. I have a question. In the third volume, you have menitoned about bringing forth the fourth volume of the series. Was it written? If yes, where can we get the 4th volume?
The fourth volume of Nothing Ever Happened never happened.
The quote is from this book:
RAMANA SMRTI
Sri Ramana Maharshi
Birth Centenary Offering
1980
Published by Sri Ramanasramam
I don't know if it is in print now.
It is available online at the following links:
http://ramana-smriti.blogspot.com/
http://benegal.org/ramana_maharshi/books/bc/toc.html
That conversation occurs in Chapter 41 - ETERNAL BHAGAVAN by Shantamma.
The links to the chapter:
http://benegal.org/ramana_maharshi/books/bc/bc041.html
http://ramana-smriti.blogspot.com/2007/07/eternal-bhagavan-shantammal.html
"The fourth volume of Nothing Ever Happened never happened." I don't know the reason why it hasn't happened so far, but if the problem is monetary, then I'm sure many of us can pitch in and help out. Actually, we'd only be helping ourselves. Reading 'Nothing Ever Happened' has entertained and educated many of us. Thanks.
After I posted the last comment, I thought "Why only 'Nothing Ever Happened?'". I've enjoyed all the books I've read. Please let us know if we can help in any way (I suppose we failed you with respect to info on Guhai Namasivaya), monetary or otherwise, for a fourth volume of Nothing Ever Happened, or any other book you might be working on, or any other purpose. Thanks.
Maneesha & Ramprax,
That account (frog vs bee) is in 'The Power of the Presence' also, part three, pg. 249/250. It was told by Shantammal, who were a kitchen worker. In the same pg.250 she refers to another story.
One day, when I was still new in the kitchen, I served Bhagavan with a few extra pieces of potato. Bhagavan noticed it and got very angry with me. He turned his face away and would not look at those who were serving him food. Not knowing the rules at that time, I could not make out the cause of his anger and wondered who it was who had offended him.
Each night, after the day's work was over, the women who worked in the kitchen would colletc around him and ask him permission to leave. Usually, he would exchange a few words with us, enquire who was accompanying us, whether we had a lantern, and so on. That evening he gave me a sign to come near.
'What did you do tonight?'
'I don't know, Swami. Have I done something wrong?'
'You served me more curry than the others.'
'What does it matter? I did it with love and devotion.'
'I felt ashamed to eat more than the others. Have you come all this way to stuff me with food? You should always serve me less than other people.'
'But Bhagavan, how can I treat you worse than others?'
'Is this the way to please me? Do you hope to earn grace through a potato curry?
'Out of my love for you I commited a blunder. Forgive me, Bhagavan, I shall respect your wishes.'
'The more you love my people, the more you love me,' said Bhagavan, and the matter was closed. A good lesson was learned and never forgotten.
Anonymous
Thanks for your offer and your concern. The problem was never financial. I just never got inspired to write about the final years of Papaji's life once I left Lucknow.
David,
Can you please let us know about the projects (books etc.) you are working on now?
Ramana Smriti is available for download on Ramanasramam site
on this page under 'Souvenirs' section:
http://sriramanamaharshi.org/bookstall/downloadbooks.html
Link to the file:
http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/downloads/ramana_smrti.zip
Gautham
I am putting most of my energy into completing a book on Guhai Namasivaya. This will contain all his known poems on Arunachala, along with a biography and explanatory notes. I am doing this in collaboration with Venkatasubramanian and Robert Butler. All the verses have been translated and revised a little. The main remaining work is more revisions and annotations. I hope this will be finished before the end of the year.
I am simultaneously collecting material (and doing research on) Maurice Frydman with the aim of bringing out a book on him. There is a long way to go on this. I am still interviewing people who knew him and getting translations of letters and interviews that originally were in Polish.
Once in a while I try to find some time for projects that I started a long time ago and never got round to finishing. Along with Venkatasubramanian and Robert I am working on a long presentation of all the Tevaram poems that Bhagavan quoted. We will tell the stories that Bhagavan told about each of the three Tevaram poet-saints, and then add new translations of all the verses that Bhagavan referred to.
I am also writing a commentary on Tirukannokkam, one of the poems in Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai. It is a poem that exhorts devotees to look at Bhagavan's eyes. I am bringing together all the stories by devotees of what happened when they had powerful eye contact with Bhagavan. I will also include Bhagavan's own comments on the power of the Guru's glance and allied topics such as the 'infinite eye'.
There are other projects even further behind in the queue for my time and attention, but I don't want to get distracted by them until some of the projects mentioned here have been completed.
David/friends,
I am looking for a good map of Tiruvannamalai for my visit there soon. Especially, from Western Gopuram to Guhai Namasivaya. I saw the map in Ashram website. But its resolution is low. I have also tried wikimapia and google earth. Any help will be much appreciated.
Dear Kandhan,
You don't really need a map. All you have to do is to take the narrow lane that starts from opposite the Western tower up Arunachala. This is the one bounded by a profusion of houses - you cannot miss it.
As you go up, and once you are clear of the houses, you will come upon a clearing of sorts with a huge, old tree which has a sort of platform built around its base.
Take a left from there - there is a path that you can see when you look left, with the tree at your 11 o clock.. There are a few hand-lettered signages which will lead you to the Guhai Namasivaya Temple.
Hope this is of some help.
Nandu Narasimhan
Nandu
Your 'huge old tree' is actually a bodhi tree that was planted by Kanda Swami, the man who built Skandashram. I found a note to this effect in one of Sivaprakasam Pillai's journals. That makes it about 100 years old.
David,
That's a truly amazing fact. Thanks for another nugget. On the next visit, I shall not pass that tree without a mini pradakshina around it.
No records exist of Kanda Swami in any published account, post his departure from Arunachala.
Anything in your archives on that?
Nandu Narasimhan
I was thinking about how, the circumstances one finds oneself in, an ego is not meant to be able to handle, and can't handle. Only the Lord, the real Self, can deal with the circumstances that creatures find themselves in. I was just thinking about how, being overwhelmed by circumstances, feeling the burden is too big, or that one's resources to deal with them is too feeble, is not that surprising.
When I listen to CD's or audio of sages as I walk around. Mainly these days Sri Nome, and Robert Adams. When I listen to them, I get some of the effect of being in satsang. In the sense, that I can practice a little bit without the illusion of doership, or that an individual is practicing. Mainly it's being absorbed in the message. Letting Robert and Nome inquire for me. So there is kind of the intellectual aspect in that, maybe I'll notice listening to them, the ways in which I'm sliding into taking myself to be this self-important person with problems, and dissolving it as imagination. Or other things that they say. But even when I'm not listening to the words, I find it's hard to get as trapped in the sorrows of samsara, objectifying my 'pathetic' life. I don't really know how that's working. Part of it, is I find myself enthralled, and fascinated as I listen to them, unconsciously, and effortlessly. So it acts on me in a way, that isn't on the conscious level. That effortless fascination, takes me off the ego level. I'm finding this aid, needs to be practically constant. So at home, I have them playing on my lab top, and when I'm walking around, I carry a CD walkman. Sometimes because of that, I discriminate down to pure stillness Bliss, all-prevasiveness. That is where I really am seeing success. Of course 10 minutes later, I can be agitated to the point of depraved sadness or anger. So the persistence is very important. Another thing is, unlike reading a book, or concentrating on inquiry. By doing this, I can just go about my life, and things they say will trigger discernment. And that stillness Bliss will take over. I'm finding this to be a necessary aid. Because inquiry I don't think is a method really, in the typical sense. Inquiry is absorption in the guru, the Bliss of the guru, and the discernment that the Guru, the Self, which is also the Lord, is the answer to the question Who am I? That there is only That, and I am That!
Dear Scott,
I too listen to talks on Bhagavan and Arunachala (unfortunately, most of these are in Tamil or in heavily-accented English - might be tough for you to follow), or to the Tamil Parayana.
It does much more than slow down my head. It takes me right to Arunachala, the ashram and Bhagavan.
Nandu Narasimhan
Dear Nandhu,
thanks for the directions.
Nandu/Friends,
"I too listen to talks on Bhagavan and Arunachala (unfortunately, most of these are in Tamil or in heavily-accented English - might be tough for you to follow), or to the Tamil Parayana.
It does much more than slow down my head. It takes me right to Arunachala, the ashram and Bhagavan."
This is one of the very best and sweetest way of Sadhana-the way of smarana or Divine Remembrance.The letters from Sri Ramanasramam serves this purpose beautifully in capturing the settings ,people and Sri Bhagavan.It is quite like The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna-The objective was almost the same-M,kept the diary so that he does not miss the Master during the week days;Suri Nagamma wrote the letters to her brother who was away in Madras so that he could have the benefit of Being in Sri Bhagavan's Presence although he was far away in Madras.
I will share this note on How Sri M came to write The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna and more importantly what M has said regarding the attitude that are helpful to devotees visiting these places associated with the Great Masters.
-----------------------------------
On his fourth visit to Sri Ramakrishna, M., the author of this book, found Sri Ramakrishna in his room surrounded by a group of young men. As soon as M. came in the room, the Master laughed and said to them, 'There! He has come again'. Then he explained the cause of his laughter: 'A man once fed a peacock a pill of opium at four o'clock in the afternoon. The next day, exactly at that time, the peacock came back. It had felt the intoxication of the drug and returned just in time to have another dose.' For the remaining five years of the Master's lifetime, M. returned for dose after dose of this divine intoxicant -- direct association with God Incarnate -- and then shared it freely with other seekers of God in the form of this most beautiful book. At the beginning of each volume of the Bengali Gospel, he has quoted a verse from the Gopika Geetam of the Srimad Bhagavatam:
tava kataamrutam, taptajeevanam
kavibhireeditam kalmashaapaham
shravanamangalam shreemadaatatam
bhuvi grunanti te bhooridaa janaa
O Lord, your words, like sweet nectar, refresh the afflicted. Your words, which poets have sung in verses, vanquish the sins of the worldly. Blessed are they who hear of you, and blessed indeed are they who speak of you. How great is their reward!'
....Continued......
Friends,
.......M and The Gospel continued....
" Sri Ramakrishna commissioned M. to carry his message, just as he commissioned Swami Vivekananda. At the Cossipore garden house, the Master wrote on a piece of paper, 'Naren [Vivekananda]
will teach people'. When the young man objected, the Master told him, 'Your very bones will do it.' Regarding M., Sri Ramakrishna once said in an ecstatic mood, addressing the Divine Mother: 'Mother, why have you given him only kala [a small part] of power? Oh, I see. That will be sufficient for your work.'
Indeed, after he had been visiting the Master for some time, M. felt the urge to renounce family life and become a monk. But Sri Ramakrishna had set out a different path for him and discouraged him from this idea, saying: 'You are well established in God already. Is it good to give up all?' Another day he said: 'God binds the Bhagavata pundit to the world with one tie; otherwise, who would remain to explain the sacred book? He keeps the pundit bound for the good of men. That is why the Divine Mother has kept you in the world.'
When one of Sri Ramakrishna's devotees asked M. to show him his diary, M. refused, saying, 'I am writing it for myself, not for others'. Whenever he would get a little extra time during his work as a teacher, he would retire to a solitary room on the roof to read his diary and reflect and meditate on the words of the Master. Once, speaking of the origin of the Gospel, M. said: 'I was involved in worldly activities, bound to my work, and could not visit the Master whenever I wished. Therefore I used to note down his words in order to think about them in the intervals before I met him again, so that the impressions made on my mind might not be overlaid by the stress of worldly work and responsibilities. It was thus for my own benefit that I first made the notes, so that I might realize his teachings more perfectly'.
..........continued...........
Friends,
.......M and The Gospel continued.....
M. was gifted with artistic ability and an accurate memory, which enabled him to faithfully recreate in writing what he had seen and heard. The scenes in the Gospel are so vividly depicted, that it is as if the reader is being transported to the very time and place and is watching and listening to the Master and his devotees. M. had been influenced by the writing of medieval Sanskrit poets such as Kalidasa and Bhavabhuti and had imbibed the contemplative spirit and serene atmosphere of the hermitages of ancient India through them. His own poetic nature can be seen in the descriptive passes in the Gospel, such as the following:
"Sri Ramakrishna was going to the pine-grove. A beautiful, dark rain-cloud was to be seen in the northwest... After a few minutes M. and Latu, standing the Panchavati, saw the Master coming back towards them. Behind him the sky was black with the rain-cloud. Its reflection in the Ganga made the water darker. The disciples felt that the Master was God Incarnate, a Divine Child five years old, radiant with the smile of innocence and purity. Around him were the sacred trees of the Panchavati under which he had practiced spiritual disciplines and had beheld visions of God. At his feet flowed the sacred river Ganga, the destroyer of man's sins. The presence of this God-man charged the trees, shrubs, flowers, plants, and temples with spiritual fervor and divine joy."
His conversations are meticulously documented according to place, persons, time, day, month, and year, and have come directly from M.'s diary. He himself said: 'My account is not a collection from other sources. I recorded, whatever I heard with my own ears from the Master's lips and whatever I saw of his life with my own eyes'. He wrote at the beginning of each volume of the Bengali edition that there are three kinds of information about Sri Ramakrishna: The first is recorded by the person who observed it on the same day as it happened; the second is recorded by the observer but at a later time; and the third is also recorded at a later time, but by someone who heard it from someone else. The Gospel belongs to the first category. M. would struggle to make his account accurate, for he once said: 'Sometimes I meditated on one scene over a thousand times. Sometimes I had to wait for a word of the Master to come to mind as a chataka bird waits for a drop of rainwater to fall'.
..............Continued..........
Friends,
In the eye of the lover, every detail of his beloved's life and activities is important. So it is with the devotee of God. He has intense interest in all things, places, and persons associated with God's manifestation on earth. He takes great pleasure in visiting or hearing about such places, because they make the Lord more real to him. To the devotees of Sri Ramakrishna, every spot at Dakshineswar is sacred. M. would sometimes accompany the devotees to the temple garden and would point out places where special conversations, meetings, or incidents had taken place. He was never tired of narrating those stories. In the first volume of the Bengal Gospel and in the first English edition, The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, volume I (published by Ramakrishna Math, Madras), M. has left a short description of the Dakshineswar temple garden for future pilgrims, pointing out the places they should see: the bel tala, where the Master practiced Tantra; the pine grove; the Panchavati, a sacred grove of five trees (banyan, peepul, neem, amalaki, and bel); the madhavi-lata plant, which was planted by the Master; the meditation room, where the Master practiced Vedantic sadhana; the goose tank; the bakultala ghat; the nahabat, where Sri Sarada Devi lived; the chandni-ghat, where the Master used to bathe; the flower garden; the Kali temple; the nat-mandir, or theatre hall; the office rooms and guest rooms; the twelve Shiva temples; the Radha-Krishna temple; the new image of Krishna and also the old one with the broken leg, which was repaired by the Master; the southern, northern, and semi-circular western verandahs around the Master's room; the room itself, where he lived for sixteen years; the gazi pond; the gazitala, where the Master practiced Islam; the main gate, the back gate; and the orchard.
......continued.......
Friends,
.....M,on 'Pilgrimage'to Dakshineswar
"Once a devotee told M. that he planned to visit Dakshineswar. M. told him to prepare himself for the visit. Then, suddenly in an inspired mood, M. said: 'When you see Dakshineswar, you will have an idea of what Sri Ramakrishna's surroundings were like. The temple garden was the backdrop for divine scenes. At Dakshineswar you will see the bel tree under which the Master practiced great Tantric sadhanas. There is the Panchavati, where he went through many spiritual exercises. You will also see the Master's room. When you enter his room, visualize the Master seated with his disciples and talking to them on divine subjects. We always found the Master absorbed in spiritual moods. Sometimes he would be in samadhi. Sometimes he would be singing and dancing. At other times he would be talking to the Divine Mother. We were fortunate enough to see a man who actually talked to the Divine Mother. We were fortunate enough to see a man whose experiences form, as it were, a living Veda. It is the revelations of such people that we have to rely upon, not our "ounce of reason". For the intellect cannot go far in spiritual matters; it has been weighed and found wanting. Christ said to his disciples, "I speak of things which I have seen with my own eyes; and yet you believe me not". One has to put one's faith in the words of a man of realization. When you go to the temple, you must purify yourself and strip yourself of all sensuality. Only the pure in heart can see God. You must also open yourself to the Master's presence and influence. This pilgrimage to Dakshineswar will help you a good deal in progression towards God-realization'.
On another occasion M. advised: 'One should see everything connected with the Master in detail. For example, in the Master's room there are cots, a jar containing Ganga water, pictures of gods and goddesses - Kali, Krishna, Rama, Chaitanya and his kirtan party, Dhruva, Prahlad, Christ extending his hand to the drowning Peter, and a white marble image of Buddha, which was given to him by Queen Katyayani, the wife of Lalababu. There was a picture of the goddess of learning on the western wall. Whenever a new person would come, the Master would look at the picture and pray, "Mother, I am an unlettered person. Please sit on my tongue", and then he would speak to him. If a person can imprint these divine sights on his mind, he will have deep meditations, and even sitting at home he can live at Dakshineswar with the Master'.
M. made a wonderful comment about Dakshineswar: 'The spiritual fire is blazing intensely there, and whoever goes there will be purified. The body does not burn, but mental impurities are consumed in no time. Then a man can attain immortality. God himself, in a physical form, lived there for thirty years! One can tangibly feel the spirituality at Dakshineswar'
-----------------------------------
How Nandu acknowledged the Tree Planted by Kandasamy-to the Devotee all these details adds fuel to the aspiration.
Namaskar.
In my case it's Sri Nome's discourse and response to questioners, and at the end the recitation of verses from different books like Katha Upanishad and others, sung in sanskrit I believe. Often, there are things Nome says, that capture my attention, and dissolve the current vasana, in the Bliss and Being. And, when the recitations are going on it the end, or the Om at the beginning, or the om Shanti at the end, I become totally absorbed. Doing it on my own, I couldn't do it on my own. While listening to this, certain things will catch my attention, and be a source of concern or worry, but these satsang CD's bring me back to Being, in a way that I haven't really been able to replicate on my own. Robert Adams is the same. I'd probably listen to Papaji, if I could find mp3s or CD's of him, and maybe I would at some point. Though Nome, I think answers from the pure position of being only the Self, so is really the same as those other teachers.
Friends,
The Great yogi Tirumular in his Tirumanthiram says:
theLivu guruvin thirumEni kANDal
theLivu guruvin thirun^Amam ceppal
theLivu guruvin thiruvArththai kETTal
theLivu guruvuru cin^thiththal thAnE.
Meaning:
Clarity is seeing the holy Body of guru;
Clarity is saying the holy Name of guru;
Clarity is listening to the holy Words of guru;
Clarity is contemplating on the holy Form of guru.
-----------------------------------
In his introduction to "Day by day with Bhagavan" Sri Devaraja Mudaliar writes:
It was my great good fortune to live for more than four
years, from August 1942 till the end of 1946, at Sri
Ramanasramam and to have the inestimable benefit of daily
contact with our Bhagavan. After I had been there for some
months various people who visited the Asramam began to
suggest that it would be a good thing if I recorded Bhagavan’s
utterances on spiritual topics, either in answer to questions
from visitors or in any other context. For a long time, however,
I was too lazy to make the effort. Nevertheless, whenever I
read the ‘Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa’, as I used
to now and then, I felt how desirable it was that a similar
book should be compiled in the case of our Bhagavan."
I should say that although Mudaliar captures the words of Sri Bhagavan,it is more of a 'Question' and 'answer' type.
It is Suri Nagamma who through her wonderful 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam' captures Sri Bhagavan's everyday life and the happenings in the Old Meditation Hall,Picnic with Sri Bhagavan,etc.
This is the most intimate account that puts one straight inside the Old Hall,with Sri Bhagavan reclining in his couch.To see that is enough for the devotee and thanks to Suri Nagamma,we have the wonderful stories of Great saints narrated by Sri Bhagavan in his inimitable Dramatic style.
To have a look at Sri Bhagavan reclining on the sofa is to know the meaning of 'effortless ease of the Self'.This is what Tirumular says in that tirumanthiram.
Namaskar.
I really have to say, be careful to judge who you think is enlightened, and who is a fraud, if you haven't met them, or been in their presence.
Let grace, and the sense of peace, be the guide, not the mind, or the senses. It's judgement of appearances, or tendency to believe hearsay. I would say the latter are not reliable, only the former is. If you go with the sense of peace, and grace, and happiness felt in someone's presence, only good people radiate that. Lots of the 'facts' and 'reputations' are potentially falsehoods. And I want to stress, that for me, peace and bliss are the only thing I trust as a guide in regards to anything anymore, especially my own spiritual inquiry and realization. So, I do not discount bliss is unimportant, or just another unreal feeling. The peace and bliss, is the guide I use to find the Self. If I'm feeling any level of dullness or unhappiness, I think that is the sign to go in the other direction.
The experience that "really matters" here is Silence - it is
communicable because it is 'common' already, it is what is referred to
as "saved" but not recognized because of the ongoing mental frenzy in
the "seeker". Exposure to one for whom Silence has become "default"
will uncover the experience in "others" without effort - just a matter
of time, for some 5 minutes but for others a matter of years. That is
why exposure to Ramana is invaluable and there is no
substitute for it.
L
Dear Losing my Mind,
I agree with you word by word. As you had mentioned we could sense peace and grace in the presence of a Master.
The observers of Jnaani may or may not know if so called Jnaani is performing actions while abiding in the self. Each of the observers might come with their own interpretations based
on their characteristics of mental apparatus (mental impressions cause by accumulations). Only that Jnaani can clearly say whether he did perform the actions while abiding in the self. The awareness (abiding in the truth) allows the person to see that gunas belong to prakrithi as it manifests in himself and perform actions. Please note that unless Jnaani is in a state of Samadhi (where he is not aware anything but one reality) he sees and
interacts with all objects as an Ajaani would do. The only difference is, Jnaani maintains the state of abiding in the truth and his actions sprout out from his inner being (self). In that sense, only Jnaani would come to know whether the scriptures come out of his mental and intellectual plain or from the self itself. Jnaani would be perfectly at peace when abiding in the self, even while engaged in activities related to sad situations.
There is one situation in Ramayana, where Rama is inconsolably sad as he misses his wife Sita. Valmiki says, Rama is sitting on a small rock and crying while thinking about Sita.
Sugreeva notices Rama's situation and comes towards Rama to console him. But as Sugreeva approached Rama, he experiences a peace that cannot be expressed in words. Sugreeva, who came to console Rama, was taken aback by the peace and his thoughts on consoling Rama vanished.
In another instance Yoga Vashista teaches Jnaana to Rama and tells him to play as you like in this world. What does that mean? Yoga Vashista says, while abiding in the self, perform the actions. The people observe the actions of Rama would simply praise, condemn or show indifference to his actions.
It is tough to say why the Jnaani was reacting in a such a way based on certain actions. So, it is tough to describe a Jnaani just based on the actions he performs, as it is left to the interpretation of others. There are stories in scriptures (I think it is Bhagavatham, not sure) that a house hold-wife and a butcher has attained Jnaam. The butcher continued to perform his actions while abiding the self, where a Brahmin comes to learn Atma jnana from him. So performing actions is nothing to do with Jnaam status.
But there is a clue to identify a Jnaani. In Jnaani's presence people would experience such a peace. Basically, a Jnaani who abides in the self, his actions sprouts from the source itself (self.) We simply don't know whether Jnaani performs his actions while abiding in the self or by his own sangalpa. There are many Jnaanis who lead the samsara life and even ruled the country (King Janaga) However, Jnani can immediately see a disturbance in himself if his action comes out of sangalpa as he could observe his peace is disturbed. He could see that his awareness is lost. Only that person would know. If we would try to interpret the actions behind it, it would be similar to finding the reason for natural calamities.
New post please, David! Nearly two months since one!
Dear Ramesh Nagarajan,
what you say sounds very, very correct to me.
@ anonymous,
I believe Ramana said "Silence is that state in which no 'I' arises". And that Silence, as I understand it in Maharshi's teachings is equivalent to Bliss, peace, and happiness. They are all equivalent.
Friends,
An excerpt from 'The Letters from 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam':
22nd November, 1945
(2) AHAM SPHURANA
Yesterday a Bengali Swami in ochre robes by name
Hrishikesanand came here. This morning from 8-30 to
11-00 Bhagavan continuously discussed spiritual matters with
him. That voice flowed full of nectar and uninterruptedly
like the waters of the Ganges. How can my pen keep pace
with that great flow? That amrit (nectar) can only be drunk
deep with the hand of devotion: how can it be gathered and
conveyed on paper? When Sri Bhagavan was relating his
experiences in Madurai of the vision of death, these eyes
were incapable of taking in the radiance of his personality,
these ears of grasping the full wisdom of his words. It is
natural for the enthusiasm of one who relates an incident to
reflect the level of intelligence of him who listens.
I should have given you a more detailed account of the
questions asked by the Swami and the replies given by
Bhagavan; only at present the place reserved for ladies in
the hall is rather far from Bhagavan and, as I happened to
be sitting at the back, I could not hear properly all that was
being discussed. I did however hear one thing clearly.
Bhagavan said, “In the vision of death, though all the senses
were benumbed, the aham sphurana (Self-awareness) was
clearly evident, and so I realised that it was that awareness
that we call ‘I’, and not the body. This Self-awareness never
decays. It is unrelated to anything. It is Self-luminous. Even
if this body is burnt, it will not be affected. Hence, I realised
on that very day so clearly that that was ‘I’.”
Many more such things were said but I could not follow
or remember them, and so I am not able to write any more
about them. There have been several discussions as this
before. I am only sorry I have let slip such innumerable
gems. Please excuse my laziness and indifference in not
writing to you even though you have been asking me all
these days to write.
-----------------------------------
This is a typical instance of going beyond 'ideas' and just be in the presence of Sri Bhagavan.In this presence is the essence and it is not surprising that only this 'essence' was heard by suri Nagamma ,what Sri Bhagavan said about 'Aham Sphurana'.
There were times when I was around Nome, that I got the sense that different people might even see different things. For instance, this one time I dialogued with him in satsang, at the end of talking to him, he smiled at me, and looked at me, and then kind of pulled away from eye contact, and I remembered him saying indifferently, "alright". As he turned away. When I watched the video, this didn't happen. he just smiled very affectionately at me. There were things he did that even seemed supernatural, such as when he with eyes closed, suddenly opened his eyes, so that I looked at him, because I was looking at the portrait of Maharshi behind him. It was like he knew I was looking at Maharshi and not him. And when he did that, earlier had been mentioned darshan of a sage. I can't really explain very well, what happened when he looked at me, but it was so amazingly powerful, I don't have words for it. Really it was grace, and I was in a profound state of peace, which is of course my own real nature. The thing I want to describe is that when he made eye contact with me, even briefly, it was like I slid from one perspective, into another perspective gracefully and instantly. It wasn't subtle. It was immediate and perfect. And when he looked away, I was left in the other perspective, where my entire being was perfectly stilled in a perfect contentment. There were other aspects, and the way my mind and senses may have interpreted it, but that was the important thing about it. I can say the whole room glowed a brilliant light, but those are all I won't say tricks of the mind, but they are still the senses and mind making something of it, that is perhaps not it, but also are maybe integral to it. In one his e-mails where I asked him about it, he did say his wife (Sasvati) who recites in English the sanskrit verses from various Hindu scriptures at the end of satsang, I won't quote it exactly, but did say that she was, in my own words fully realized in the truth in which there are no individuals. With both of them, there were times, where I could be in their presence, and it was not obvious that anything different or special was going on with them. It being very subtle. Infact, I would say, from this experience, is that if you want to tell a jnani as a jnani, it is impossible or difficult to tell from their behavior, appearance, mood, anything like that, but that in their presence, is the presence of Brahman, the Self, and so one is very intimate with that real, perfect, blissful awareness. And so the signs of a jnani are more that one is very in touch, and very inexplainably with that Consciousness, which is what the jnani really is. The apparent creature that presents as the jnani, may behave very uninterestingly different from any other human being. But I can't say it was the same. Both Nome and Sasvati, when they made eye contact with me, they did it without any of the nervous fear that would cause them to avert their eyes, so their eye contact was very noticeably long, and affectionate. And from everything I've read in The Power of Presence, and these experiences, it would be very hard for me to say that jnanis behave the same as other people. Infact, it's pretty clear that they express a maturity and dispassion (lack of careless drama) far above and beyond human egos. So if there is anything in action, it is more noteable for them not doing the wrong things most people consistently do.
Dear LMM, "Silence is the state where no I arises".
Actually what I remember most vividly is that Ramana said it is not a blank!
hj
I second Maneesha. New post please!
No matter how effective a mystical teaching Advaita might have been in India’s ancient past, its newborn Western child, Neo-Advaita, seemed to be missing something significant. Isolated from its Eastern religious and historical context and taught as a quick-fix, no-frills contemporary path to spiritual enlightenment, they noticed its tendency to ignore traditional values like ethics and the cultivation of personal integrity.
Huston
Dear Losing my mind,
Beautiful explanation!
How this is possible for Jnaanis? They live in the present all the time. There is no past and future. They are fully aware what they are doing at the present moment. Typically, our ego dominated mind lives mostly in the past and future in the form of thoughts, constantly chattering and preventing us to live in the awareness (present). For example, every activity that we do on a daily basis, such as taking the shower, eating food, etc., there is no complete awareness. This is because we are identified and associated with other (body and mind) than who we really are. While taking bath, there is a mental rush to complete and move on to the next activity. The moment we take the soap in our hands, our thought is about where to apply it, rather than feeling the presence of soap in our hands as it is and feeling the touch of the soap at the time of applying. So, our thoughts invariably takes us into the future event, which doesn't exist yet, there by losing our awareness of the present moment.
Since we are observed in thoughts of the future, there is a mental disturbance which robs away our peace which can exist only at the present moment.
Now, bringing awareness to the present moment will reduce the mental chattering (basically disassociating ourselves with body and mind) but not necessarily means that we have realized the truth. It helps as a stepping stone to consciously bring awareness in what we are doing and progress in the spiritual path.
As for as the Jnaani is concerned, he has not only realized the truth that there is only one reality and there are no individuals but also able to abide in the truth all the time. He would see only one single consciousness flowing everywhere and taking different forms, which aren't different from one another at the substratum level. Jnaanis abide in the consciousness all the time, where they simply exist and do the activity with full awareness. As a result, there is no means to end for the activities they perform, but means itself is the end. In other words, each and every step they take is complete end in itself, fully present in the present moment. This is possible because they perform the activities using body and mind as their instruments, rather than other way around.
Since there are no mental (thought) disturbances in Jnaani, the grace and peace automatically flows from them naturally and permeates to other people who are in their presence. Of course, the receiving person should also be in a matured state to feel them. The grace and peace would be similar to a nice gentle breeze (which cannot be explained) that sweeps through without any ingredients left to create a storm or tornado.
Jnaani could also express some anger at times. But the difference is, they just express emotion and don't become emotional. Emotional here denotes the lingering in emotion. When we linger in emotion we hold on to the thoughts related to the emotion for a long time. As a result that emotion gains a better handle of us, thereby losing our peace. In the case of Jnaani, he is completely aware that he has to express anger, however once he expresses it, the next moment will be completely different as what is necessary for that moment. Even Jnaani would be in peace while expressing anger as it doesn't affect him. Vivekananda was seen very sad, when he couldn't help people who were suffering some chronic disease. When someone asked him about why he is expressing sadness, he replied back that there is an ecstasy even while expressing sadness.
So whatever emotions that Jnaani expresses, it could be easily mistaken by the masses, only he would know. The grace and peace reveals a Jnaani.
'Bhagavan felt that sadhus should have no desires. By living a life of spartan simplicity,Bhagavan demonstrated to devotees that it was necessary for them to reduce their consumption of inessential items and to give up ostentatious behaviour'
The devotees adored Ramana but he never took advantage of this position to interfere with their individual freedom. Instead of lecturing people on virtuous behaviour, he demonstrated it by his own impeccable conduct.
Friends,
An excerpt from 'The Letters from Sri Ramanasramam':
A devotee asked, “Why does Bhagavan call Ganapati
Sastri ‘Nayana’ (Nayana means father)?” “There is a reason
for it,” he replied, “it is my custom to address all people with
respect. Moreover, he was older than me. I therefore always
used to call him Ganapati Sastri Garu. That was very distressing
to him and so he begged me times out of number not to do
so, saying, ‘Am I not your disciple? You should call me by a
familiar name. This is very unfair.’ I did not pay any heed to
his protests. At last one day he insisted on my giving up the
formal way of addressing him and adopting a familiar one.
All his disciples call him ‘Nayana’, you see. So I made it an
excuse and said I too would call him ‘Nayana’ like the others.
He agreed to it because ‘Nayana’ means a child and a disciple
could be addressed as one’s own child. I agreed because
‘Nayana’ also means ‘father’ and hence it would not matter
so far as I was concerned. I was still addressing him in
respectful terms. Whenever I asked him to come here or go
there(In English it may be translated as 'come sir' or 'go sir'-Ravi) he was still uncomfortable because after all that he
had done, I continued to talk to him with the respect due to
elders,” said Bhagavan.
-----------------------------------
I am wondering whether anything like this is ever found in 'Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi' or any other book.The author might have felt that it is not relevant to 'Self Realization'.How easy it is to overlook all these wonderful aspects that are part and parcel of culture and wisdom-How easy and convenient to ignore all this , dismiss it as incidental and not essential part of wisdom.
This is the aspect that a devotee can soak in and imbibe-something that cannot be conveyed in words.
Namaskar.
'Who AM I '
Months went by asking this question - 'Who Am I'
Mind provided so many answers, conditoned, borrowed, bookish, dead
answers.
The answers brought no transformation - more importantly no bliss.
Answers
were peripheral.
So many answers were there :
Mind said - You are so and so
Mind said - You are body
Mind said - You are consciousness
Mind said - You are soul
Mind said- You are Brahma, the Truth
Mind said - You are Immortal
Mind said - You are Light
So many answers, but seemed I was untouched. Borrowed, dead answers -
bringing no significant transformation.
..then one day
I saw, question was on the periphery, answer was in the centre.
Question was borrowed. Answer was personal.
Question was deep insides, and answers that came were from deep
outside
Question was mine, answers were all borrowed.
J
It's pretty clear that people's own ability to see well, is based on their own sincerity. And in that, no one can help anyone else. That is why, most disputations seem pointless. A big part of these teachings is humility. My own self, and it's understanding is less important. It's not me, my self that is going to realize the Self, and become enlightened. As Robert Adams said, "The enlightenment is already here, it doesn't need you". If someone else is less sincere, it seems to me, then they are physically prevented from seeing correctly, so there own perceptions will reinforce their own flawed understanding. The same goes for me, unless I am sincere, and humble enough that I don't believe I already know. True intelligence, really does seem like when you know you don't know, and are flexible, fluid, learning. In terms of guru/devotee. It's hard to find a guru, if one thinks they already understand, it seems. Feeling like one can't do it on one's own, I think, is perhaps a necessary pre-requisite. I think I was greatly helped by approaching Self-inquiry and Maharshi's teachings, from the standpoint of not knowing, but practicing what made sense, and seeking a deeper understanding from sages, recognizing their sage-hood, by the fact that age-old problems (maybe 35 million year old problems, to quote Papaji) started to clear up in their wisdom. I guess what I'm getting at, is that to a large extent, it seems like people's ignorance is largely their own responsibility. The only thing I can do, the only thing I can do at all, that is greatly beneficial is complete my own Realization, which is not my own Realization. But just basking in the wisdom of these gurus, until my own individuality, and my own understanding completely dissolve in their wisdom, and then there is no others, no world, no one who needs help.
Ravi
This is an interesting subject, one that needs to be considered when one is translating writings on Bhagavan into languages that, like Tamil, distinguish between familiar and formal forms of address. In many languages one can address children and God in a familiar way, but adults are normally addressed more formally.
I have spoken to some old devotees about this and they told me that Bhagavan spoke to a few devotees (such as G. V. Subbaramayya) in a familiar way, but others were addressed more formally. This may have been a reflection of a devotee’s attitude to Bhagavan: those lucky ones who naturally felt able to deal with Bhagavan in a friendly and familiar way would find that Bhagavan reciprocated this relationship in his verbal addresses.
Sometimes, Bhagavan addressed devotees in a way that was more respectful than tradition demanded. The young male sadhus in the ashram were addressed by Bhagavan as ‘sami’ (‘swami’, a very formal and respectful title) even though they were not officially swamis. Annamalai spoke about this in Living by the Words of Bhagavan:
“Strictly speaking, the title ‘Swami’ should only be used by those who have been formally initiated into one of the traditional orders of sannyasa. None of the ‘Swamis’ in the ashram had been formally initiated. Most of them acquired their titles merely because Bhagavan began to address them in this way. Bhagavan always spoke to people in a very respectful manner. When he wanted to call one of the sadhus in the ashram, he would often say their name and then add the suffix ‘Swami’ as a mark of respect. He did this so often that the ashram sadhus eventually incorporated the word ‘Swami’ in their names. Normally, when one becomes a sannyasin, one is given a new name which is prefixed by the title of ‘Swami’ Most of the sadhus in the ashram kept their original name and merely added the word ‘Swami’ as a suffix.”
David/Friends,
Here is another excerpt from 'The Letters from Sriramanasramam':
12th December, 1945
(14) CONVENTIONAL RESPECT
One morning, during the usual conversations the topic
turned on Bhagavan’s mother coming away to live with him
and on her manner of life, and Bhagavan spoke to us as
follows:
“Mother began coming here frequently and staying with
me for long periods. You know I always address even beasts
and birds in a respectful manner. In the same way, I used to
address Mother also with the respectful form of speech. It
then occurred to me that I was doing something hurtful. So
I gave up the practice and began addressing her in the
familiar way. If a practice is natural and has become habitual
you feel uncomfortable at changing it. But anyway what do
these bodily things matter?” He spoke with deep feeling and
my eyes filled with tears.
Before the dawn of youth appeared on his face he
had relinquished all worldly desires, and with Divine
desire he hastened to the holy Arunachala where he reigns
in the Kingdom of Eternal Bliss. How can one speak of
the enormous fortune of that mother, in having had the
privilege of being called ‘Amma’ (mother) by such a son?
In the Vedas, the mother holds the first claim for worship:
“Mathru devo bhava” (Let mother be your God). Even so,
the beauty of it is that Bhagavan felt it unnatural for him
to address her in the respectful form. If he addressed her
so, would she not feel hurt? She felt satisfied only if he
addressed her as “Mother.” Perhaps Bhagavan felt that
he ought not to wound her feelings in so small a matter.
-----------------------------------
Endearment and respectful form of addressing others are two aspects of Intimacy.These are far removed from standoffish indifference.
The word 'Swami' means one who posseses himself-the word 'Asaami' in Tamil means person as against 'saami' or 'Udaiyavar'(Tamil word for the Sanskrit Swami).
Sri Annamalai Swami imbibed and exuded this aspect-He always addressed and referred others in respectful form only.Whenever I turned up at his asramam,he used to welcome saying 'Raviya'(Oh!Ravi?)and 'Vaanga' and 'Utkarunga'('come' and 'sit'in Respectful form of speech-as he used to spread the mat).Did he not just live by the words of Sri Bhagavan,but also imbibed everything that he saw his peerless Guru did?
One of the moving story is when Sri Bhagavan turns up at Pallakkottu and tells Sri Annamalai Swami-'I came for your Darshan'-How Swami taken aback by this statement asks Sri Bhagavan whether he had committed anything unbecoming-How Sri Bhagavan mentions that his Guru Bhakti is truly praiseworthy and that he had come to have Darshan of such a Guru Bhakta!I do not think that any other devotee of Sri Bhagavan received such a Praise from Sri Bhagavan.
-----------------------------------
Addressing everyone as 'sami' is indeed charming and has a basic Truth about it-for who does not possess himself(whether one is aware of it or not).
Namaskar.
Friends,
....Letters from Sri Ramanasramam continued....
Next afternoon, as soon as Bhagavan went out for
his walk at about 4-45, his attendant Krishnaswami
removed Bhagavan’s things from the Jubilee Hall back
into the old hall and arranged for the Veda Parayana to be
held there. Seeing this, on his return, Bhagavan said, “This
is what I don’t like, keeping the peacock a prisoner in its
cage and leaving it there outside, while we are all here
inside. Not only that, it was because this hall was found to
be insufficiently small for the Veda Parayana that we shifted
outside to the Jubilee Hall. Has this hall then grown any
bigger? Are we again to allow some people into this hall
while others are forced to be outside? Why is all this? If
everything is done there in the Jubilee Hall, the peacock
will not feel lonely and we shall have ample space. From
tomorrow arrangements should be made accordingly. If
you shift my seat here, I will not sit here, so take care!”
Having spoken thus, Bhagavan had his bed transferred
after food to the Jubilee Hall and slept there keeping the
peacock company.
The next day, Bhagavan went back to sit in the old
hall but on going out in the afternoon, Bhagavan looked at
the peacock’s cage and again said, “It is all right if, by the
time I return, you have arranged for the Veda Parayana to
be held in the Jubilee Hall; otherwise I will spread my towel
Letters from Sri Ramanasramam 344
and sit here alone. If you find it difficult to change my seat
from one hall to the other, I will stay all day long in this
Jubilee Hall only. It is just as you please. After all, what do
I need? This towel is enough for me.”
By the time Bhagavan returned from his walk, his seat
was shifted into the Jubilee Hall. It was after this incident that
the old hall was extended and that Bhagavan continued to
stay there all the time. Treating all living beings that come
into his presence as near and dear relatives is possible for
Bhagavan alone. Is it possible for us?
-----------------------------------
The sweetest thing about Great Masters is that they are Great Human Beings-This is the most attractive thing about them.The Gnana that does not blossom into Love and consideration for the well being of Others-is only Mysticism at its Best.
Namaskar.
P.s. I am not getting the confirmation regarding the posts and sorry for the repetetive Posts.
Dear All,
In Hinduism, many Male saints as well as Female saints have worshiped the Male aspect of God as their lover. There are devotional scriptures written by them pertaining to this form of worship.
Is worship of Female aspect of God as their lover by Male saints or Sadhakas considered immoral or forbidden in Hinduism? Were there any Male saints who had undertook such worship? Are there any devotional scriptures pertaining to this form of worship?
Thanks in advance for your replies.
K.
I have heard similar information from Nochur Venkataraman in one of his pravachanams. Bhagavan called only few fortunate devotees by their names. Nochur had also mentioned, that Bhagavan had jovial and casual conversations
with only some of his devotees such as Muruganar and discussed serious topics in the presence of the others.
As David Godman said, "This may have been a reflection of a devotee’s attitude to Bhagavan".
K,
To worship God as Lover-This is a Profound question that you have asked and I do not know where to begin and how to structure my response.I will give it a try.
Let me begin by asking a question-Who is Male and who is Female?Is it only biological distinction or does it go beyond this.
The Great Sages have gone into this aspect and came to the conclusion that the Male is one who is completely free from Fear-The rest are Females only.All conventional 'males' and 'Females' are part of the female family only.
Hence the worship of God as a Male(Purusha' or 'Purushottama'and the Bhakta as his Bridesmaid.No sexuality is implied in this-and as long as the least vestige of 'sex' idea is there,one does not have the prequalification for this form of woprship.One may say that this is parabhakti,one that goes beyond Gnana.
The other way of looking at the question that you have posed is through the way of 'tantra'.The Tantric approach accepts sexuality and instead of standing off from it,tries to sublimate this primeval energy and attraction.Here it does admit the adoration of a Female as a Lover-Here again a 'man' is required to be a 'Man' and should not 'Yield' but should hold back his urge.He is Required to be the Purusha-This is called the 'heroic' attitude.In its ultimate form,this turns asexual.
The worship of Sri Sarada Devi by Sri Ramakrishna is the culmination of this Practice.Sri Ramakrishna viewed his consort Sri Sarada Devi as The Divine Mother ;in turn the Holy Mother ,Sri Sarada Devi looked upon Sri Ramakrishna as The Divine Mother!
One of the Devotees asked our Holy Mother,Sri Sarada Devi-"How come that you who are so bashful accept the worship of Sri Ramakrishna?".The Holy Mother replied so simply-'Oh!I was not myself then!'.The worship of the Holy Mother by Sri Ramakrishna is unique in Hagiography.Sri Ramakrishna indeed is a spiritual Encyclopaedia-there is no path that he did not explore in one lifetime!
-----------------------------------
In any case,the Physical sexuality has to be Transcended to even have a glimpse of this approach.
More Later.
Namaskar.
K/Friends,
Mirabai is one of the Great women saints of India.There is hardly any devotee in India who would not have heard her beautiful songs of Love.
There is a fascinating story connected with Mira's life in Brindavan. There were many
saints in Brindavan. Jeeva Goswami was prominent among them.He followed a very strict vow. He would not allow even the shadow of a woman to touch him. So women could never go and see him. Having joined Chaitanya Dev's Bhakti Movement he was spreading the cult of Bhakti.
Having a high regard for saints and sages Mira went to see this great man. At the very entrance of the hermitage she was stopped by a disciple of Goswami. He said, "The Swamiji will not see anywoman."
Mira only laughed at this and said,"Ithought the only man in Brindavan is Sri Krishna.
Now, I see there is a rival to Him." These words pierced the heart of Goswami like a sharp pointed lance. He came out of his
cottage and walked up barefooted and conducted Mira into the hermitage with all honor.
Here is one of Mira's typical soul enthralling songs:
"Mere tho Giridhar Gopal
doosaro na koyi II
Mata chodi, pita chode,
Chode saga soyi I
Sadha sang baith baith
Lok laj khoyi II
Santh dekh dowdi aayi,'
Jagat dekh royi I
Prem aasu dar dar
Amar bel boyi I
Marag me taran mile
santh nam doyi I
Santh sada sees par
Nam hridou hoyi II
Ab tho bath phail gayi,
Janou sab koyi I
Dasi Mira Lal Giridhar
Honi so hoyi II
"I have no one but Giridhar Gopal. I gave up my mother. I gave up my father, and gave up all my kith and kin. I gave up my shyness in the company of sages. I ran eagerly seeking the saints but the ways and manners of the world came in the way. Then I shed tears. Those tears have kept the creeper of love alive. Saints and the holy name of Sri Krishna were the guiding lights I found along my path. Sri Krishna from within and the saints from without have illumined my path. My Lord, this slave Mira is yours. And you are the goal she wishes to reach. Let people gossip as they please. What does it matter?"
----------------------------------
Mira's Songs sung by MS Subhalakshmi are without parallel.MS Learnt these songs from Sri Dilip Kumar Roy,the Great Devotee.You may also like to explore the lives of Dada(Sri Dilip Kumar Roy)and Didi Indira Devi through their Books-Pilgrims of the Stars and The Flute calls Still.
Namaskar.
Of the texts by Shankara i've read, I have to say, that I hardly notice a difference between Ramana and Shankara in the way they express their realization. I'm sure they looked different, had different mannerisms, but the wordings are I would say maybe even identical. And agreeing with David in that post, it doesn't strike me that Ramana was copying Shankara, but that they were putting into words the same realization of the real Self. One really striking example of this, is Ramana's translation of Crest Jewel of Discrimination by Shankara. It begs the question, why did he translate Shankara, if Shankara wasn't fully realized? But not only that, it is noteable the lack of difference in expression between Ramana's Crest Jewel, and his other writings in Collected Works edited by Arthur Osborne. The cheap translation of Crest Jewel I picked up from my local bookstore, translated by someone more recently, is not hardly different from the Maharshi translation. I mean, I get the same essence. Nome, who has been my qualified spiritual teacher, with Dr. Ramamoorthy translated several Shankara works, including Svatmanirupinam, The True definition of Oneself. And there too I notice a very clear similarity.
Dear K,
There are couple of examples regarding female worships.
Ramakrishna Paramahamsar worshipped Kali. In the south, Subramanya Iyer (Abirami Pattar) worshipped Abirami (Sakthi). He has written "Abirami Anthadhi".
Antha means "end" and aathi means "beginning." Anthaathi is a particular type of work wherein the last word or phrase of the previous verse forms the beginning of the next verse — the "antha" (end) of a verse is the "aathi" (beginning) of the following verse.
There is a famous story behind where Abirami came rescued him from trouble.
Dear Ravi,
Thanks for really clarifying on the subject of - God as Lover - devotion.
I could see from your explanation that it is possible only for mature devotees who have overcome sexual/sensual and materialistic desires and not for a beginner who will be struggling with such desires.
Dear Ramesh Nagarajan,
Also, thanks for your information on saints.
I believe, Poet Subramania Bharathi also worshiped Sakthi and also there is Soundarya Lahari, a great master piece on Sakthi worship by Sri Adi Sankaracharya.
K.
Dear David, I just chanced upon an article about you in Arunachela Grace. It was a posting I truely enjoyed.
Ramana was a strict determinist, saying that all the actions that one performs in one's life is determined prior to one's birth.
As your story unfolded it most definately pointed to the above.
Great reading.
hj
Regarding Competency for Self-Enquiry:
Source: http://www.arunachala.org/newsletters/2010/?pg=jul-aug#article.1
K.V. next questioned Maharshi:
Who is the Adhikari, i.e., the person competent to launch on this Atma Vichara, the Self-quest? Can anyone judge for himself if he has the necessary competency?
Maharshi: This is an important preliminary question. Before Atma Vichara is started some antecedent experience, some achievement in the moral field is essential.
People having varied experiences in the world, at one stage develop a disgust or repulsion (vairagya) towards sense attractions or, at any rate, an indifference to such attractions, and feel forcibly the miserable transient nature of this body through which these attractions and enjoyments are had. This may be the result of the practice of devotion or some other upasana in this life, or of such devotion or other good works performed in previous lives. People with minds thus purified and strengthened are the adhikaris, the ones competent to launch on Atma Vichara or enquiry into the Self; and these are the qualifications or signs by which one can determine such competency.
K.V.: As for these good works mentioned just now, such as snana, sandhya, japa, homa, swadhyaya, Deva puja, sankirtana, tirtha yatra, yagna, dana and vritas (i.e. ablution, sandhya vandana, or matin and vespers, repetition of mantras, fire-offering, study of holy script, worship of God, singing his praise or name, pilgrimages to holy places, the five Yagnas, charitable gifts, and holy vows), if these are needed merely to give a man competency for starting on Atma Vichara, and if a man has had sufficient viveka (discrimination between the Real and the unreal) and vairagya, dispassion, is there any use in such an adhikari carrying on the above, or are they merely a waste of his time and energy?
Maharshi: When an adhikari's raga (attachments) are fading away, these good works (sat karma) tend to chitta sudhita, further purify his mind. The positive good work done by body, mind or speech destroys the corresponding evil deeds (dush karma) he may have done through these – the body, mind or speech. But if the adhikari has no more stain left to work out in this way, his good works endure for the benefit of the world at large. The wise and perfect go on doing sat karma, good works.
More regarding Competency for Self-enquiry:
K.V.: As for these good works mentioned just now, such as snana, sandhya, japa, homa, swadhyaya, Deva puja, sankirtana, tirtha yatra, yagna, dana and vritas (i.e. ablution, sandhya vandana, or matin and vespers, repetition of mantras, fire-offering, study of holy script, worship of God, singing his praise or name, pilgrimages to holy places, the five Yagnas, charitable gifts, and holy vows), if these are needed merely to give a man competency for starting on Atma Vichara, and if a man has had sufficient viveka (discrimination between the Real and the unreal) and vairagya, dispassion, is there any use in such an adhikari carrying on the above, or are they merely a waste of his time and energy?
Maharshi: When an adhikari's raga (attachments) are fading away, these good works (sat karma) tend to chitta sudhita, further purify his mind. The positive good work done by body, mind or speech destroys the corresponding evil deeds (dush karma) he may have done through these – the body, mind or speech. But if the adhikari has no more stain left to work out in this way, his good works endure for the benefit of the world at large. The wise and perfect go on doing sat karma, good works.
Regarding Competency for Self-Enquiry:
[Source: http://www.arunachala.org/newsletters/2010/?pg=jul-aug#article.1]
K.V. next questioned Maharshi:
Who is the Adhikari, i.e., the person competent to launch on this Atma Vichara, the Self-quest? Can anyone judge for himself if he has the necessary competency?
Maharshi: This is an important preliminary question. Before Atma Vichara is started some antecedent experience, some achievement in the moral field is essential.
People having varied experiences in the world, at one stage develop a disgust or repulsion (vairagya) towards sense attractions or, at any rate, an indifference to such attractions, and feel forcibly the miserable transient nature of this body through which these attractions and enjoyments are had. This may be the result of the practice of devotion or some other upasana in this life, or of such devotion or other good works performed in previous lives. People with minds thus purified and strengthened are the adhikaris, the ones competent to launch on Atma Vichara or enquiry into the Self; and these are the qualifications or signs by which one can determine such competency.
Dear David,
Can you please share more material if any, on Competency for Self-Enquiry? Maharshi's answer to K.V (above) shows the importance of having the Q of competency answered. Never bothered to fetch a concrete answer, though I had hit this Q sometime back.
Thanks!
The moderation function seems to be malfunctioning on many Google blogs right now. When moderators try to approve comments from email in boxes or from the 'comments moderation' page, an error message headed bX-o3qgph appears. I have googled this code and it seems that many people all over the word are experiencing the same problems and the same error messages. I think we will have to wait for Google to sort this one out.
Meanwhile, apologies to those of you whose comments have not yet appeared. I may not be able to post them until this problem is fixed.
salutations to all:
ravi, as usual, gave a nice description of the mAdhura bhAva. just thought of saying this:
i think 'K.' was asking about 'Female aspect of God as their lover by Male saints or Sadhakas', isn't it? thAkur's (rAmakrishNA) worship of kAlI or abirAmi bhattar's worship of abirAmi or subramaNya bhAratiyAr's adoration of saktI etc. have got nothing to do with K.'s question, for these are illustrations of worshiping god as the 'divine mother' or in the attitude of a little helpless child's dependence or surrender to its mother. K. also added 'I could see from your explanation that it is possible only for mature devotees who have overcome sexual/sensual and materialistic desires and not for a beginner who will be struggling with such desires.'
in my little opinion, this is a huge understatement!! for those who are interested, please read through the story of prajApatI and "DA" in the brhadAraNyaka upanishad. kAma, in the sense of lust, can be viewed as the last weapon of mAyA or say the final barrier, whose complete conquest is possible only with brahmajnAna. the rest such as krodha or lobha are relatively easier to overcome :-) it's for this very reason mahAtmAs recommend strongly for an aspirant to look upon all women as embodiments of the divine mother. it's also worth noticing that the greatest forms of bhaktI, both the mAtru bhAva and the mAdhura bhAva, are typically & primarily open only to women (men just can't do either, and those men who did have that as their principal bhAva are more rarer than a brahmajnAnI!!). even in tantra too, about which i know next to nothing, it's only & only in the presence of an adept preceptor that a male can assume such a relationship, but for which disaster is imminent and guaranteed. :-)
the more i see, the more am convinced that vichAra is, as bhagavAn says again & again, indeed the 'easiest' path to break the knot & realise the self. and though many among you are likely to disagree, i believe unless one is of a very high order, all talk of cultivating bhaktI is nonsense. bhaktI, for a common man bereft of an all-consuming longing for the divine, is possible only through vichAra. :-)))
I would be glad to see the comment moderation completely disabled because I can't see any real danger by bad comments.
An inspiring account from Bhagavan's life dealing with physical renunciation.
Link:
http://www.arunachala.org/newsletters/1994/?pg=may-jun#article.2
Thanks. Sankar Ganesh.
Another inspiring incident on the same page.
Link:
http://www.arunachala.org/newsletters/1994/?pg=may-jun#article.3
Thanks. Sankar Ganesh.
Friends,
Good to see Ramos back.Great posts from s and Srikantha.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,July 22 1883:
Black complexion of the Divine Mother
GOVINDA: "Revered sir, why does the Divine Mother have a black complexion?"8
MASTER: "You see Her as black because you are far away from Her. Go near and
you will find Her devoid of all colour. The water of a lake appears black from a
distance. Go near and take the water in your hand, and you will see that it has no
colour at all. Similarly, the sky looks blue from a distance. But look at the
atmosphere near you; it has no colour. The nearer you come to God, the more you
will realize that He has neither name nor form. If you move away from the Divine
Mother, you will find Her blue, like the grass-flower. Is Syama male or female? A
man once saw the image of the Divine Mother wearing a sacred thread. He said to
the worshipper: 'What? You have put the sacred thread on the Mother's neck!' The
worshipper said: 'Brother, I see that you have truly known the Mother. But I have
not yet been able to find out whether She is male or female; that is why I have put
the sacred thread on Her image.'
"That which is Syama is also Brahman. That which has form, again, is without
form. That which has attributes, again, has no attributes. Brahman is Sakti; Sakti is
Brahman. They are not two. These are only two aspects, male and female, of the
same Reality, Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute."
-----------------------------------
Namaskar.
S has provided very good explanation on pitfalls of worshipping female God by a male. Bhagavan often says "Sunga Chavadi Thappathu" - "No one could escape the Toll Gate". Here Bhagavan refers "Toll Gate" to “Vichara”. Whatever path one takes finally every one goes through “Self Enquiry” to experience the Truth.
Bhagavan has advocated that there are only two paths: “Self-Enquiry” and “Surrender”. He had also mentioned even though it seems there are two, there is only one, which is the destruction of ego.
Devotion is a Bhava expressed by devotee towards a single-pointed entity. In my humble opinion, devotion has to fulfil both the two important characteristics:
1. The devotee should choose an single entity or idol (God or Guru) and fully convinced that only that entity is the supreme entity which can help him / her for liberation.
2. Total surrender of identification (body & mind) and accumulations (attachments and aversion towards external objects in the form of lust, greed, etc.,) to the chosen entity.
Even then as a final step, the attachment towards that single entity should go away to realize the formless being (Self, Atma, God, Higher Intelligence etc.,) which abides in all the forms. Tirumular has sung a verse "Arumin, Arumin, Asai Arumin, Isanodu Ayinum Asai Arumin". Severe all the craving, even the craving towards God. The devotee holds on to a single entity to cut down all other attachments and as a final step he cuts down the attachment towards the single entity to gain liberation. It was said that, Totapuri asked his disciple Ramakrishna Paramahamsar to kill the mental formation of Kali with the sword to realize God.
Thus even in the case of devotion, finally something exists which needs to be enquired upon. As Bhagavan repeatedly provides the similar answers, “Enquire to whom the question arise”, “Who is that thinker”, “Who is that affected”, etc., In the case of Ramakrishna Paramahamsar, the self-enquiry is “To whom Kali appears before him?”.
The pure devotion happens after experiencing the Truth. Once the devotee finds the formless being is the only reality and present in all forms supreme love comes naturally. As sufi poet Rumi puts it – “Lovers don't finally meet somewhere, they're in each other all along.” We could feel the Bhakthi Rasa from Bhagavan’s “Sri Arunachala Aksharamanamalai”.
Bhagavan also had indicated “Japa” is one of the ways to experience the truth. The following are taken from Sri Murugunar’s “Guru Vachaka Kovai”. Please refer to “49 Chapter Concerning Japa verse B12 and 706”.
Sadhu Om: In the above two verses, Sri Bhagavan has explained the secret behind the second of the two instructions which he gave to Kavyakantha Ganapati Sastri on 18th November 1907.
When Ganapati Sastri approached Sri Bhagavan and prayed for instructions concerning the nature of true tapas, Sri 206 Sri Muruganar Bhagavan at first remained silent and quietly gazed at him for about fifteen minutes. Then Ganapati Sastri again prayed, “I have read about such mouna-upadesa in sastras, but I am unable to understand it. Graciously instruct me through speech also”. The first instruction then given by Sri Bhagavan was His basic teaching [yathartha upadesa] ‘Who am I?’, that is, to attend to the source from which ‘I’ rises. But being bewildered by the novelty of this upadesa, Ganapati Sastri again asked, “Can that same state be achieved through japa also?” Therefore, seeing that the devotee had a great liking for japa, Sri Bhagavan gave His second instruction, namely “If one repeats a mantra and if one watches wherefrom the sound of that mantra starts, there the mind will subside; that is tapas.”
Here “watching” indirectly refers to “Self Enquiry”. We could see that Bhagavans words “Sunga chavadi thappathu” is so profound in Devotion as well. Thus, Bhagavan suggests “Self – Enquiry” is the most direct method to follow, if that is not suitable to practice then one can practice devotion which ultimately ends in “Self-Enquiry”.
I believe the worship of Divine-Universal Mother (i.e. Sakthi aspect of SELF/Brahman) by males as a "Mother-Son" relationship came into practice primarily to get over the grip of Kama.
But the actual distinction of sex (i.e. male/female) for both the sexes will disappear only with the extinction of Ego through Brahma-Jnana.
If the worship of Female Deity by males as Divine-Universal Mother is not possible means then No Temple Priest can do the worship/puja of Divine Mother in Temples.
According to Bhagavan Ramana, each one's path to SELF-Realization is Unique. God/SELF will provide the needed guidance according to each individual's spiritual requirement.
Thanks. Sankar Ganesh.
Clemens Vargas Ramos said...
'I would be glad to see the comment moderation completely disabled because I can't see any real danger by bad comments.'
I agree it would make for better discussions, with a quicker turnaround of comments and responses, but I am going to keep it for now because:
(a) spammers occasionally try their luck with links to all sorts of inappropriate material;
(b) multiple postings of the same comment. Some of you send up to five copies of the same comment;
(c) some contributors (very few I am glad to say) make highly derogatory comments about other posters and some spiritual teachers.
The query about the qualifications for self-enquiry stirred my interest. I collected some material on this today and will turn it into a new post sometime in the next few days.
"The query about the qualifications for self-enquiry stirred my interest. I collected some material on this today and will turn it into a new post sometime in the next few days." Great! Thank you.
Ramesh Nagarajan,
"S has provided very good explanation on pitfalls of worshipping female God by a male."
Please go through that post where s has said that Mahatmas recommend that women be looked upon as embodiments of Divine Mother-This is one of the simplest and sweetest ways of conquering Lust.
To worship God as Mother is perhaps the sweetest and most potent of sadhanas.
-----------------------------------
Coming to self enquiry-What is the nature of 'Enquiry'?Is it self attention?What motivates one to self attention?Is this a natural process or something pursued for 'gaining' an advantage or some Goal?Is this pursued because we learnt it is the ultimate thing to do?
As I understand,Self Enquiry is just another aspect of 'Neti' ,'Neti'-Just discard the nonself by dropping all attachment.As the gross attachments are dropped,the pull of the self manifests as Love and implodes into The self.The Self need not be enquired into.It simply knows itself.This is the very nature of the self.
-----------------------------------
To Drop attachments is the key and each one has to approach it according to his predisposition,and in the most natural way.
This is what Sri Adi Sankara says in Bhaja Govindam:
sathsangathvE nissangathvam nissangathvE nirmOhathvam nirmOhathvE nishchalathathvam nishchalathathvE jIvanmukthihi
Association with the wise leads to disassociation(From sense objects);
Disassociation leads to Dispassion
Dispassion leads to Steady Mind
Steady mind is Jivan Mukthi.
This is the natural progression of sadhana.In Tirukkural,the Sage vaLLuvar says-'PaRRuga PaRRaRRan paRRinai appaRRaip
paRRuga paRRu viDarku-meaning
Hold on to the attachment of the nonattached,Hold to This attachment to get rid of attachment.
coming to Tirumular's Asai vidumin,eesanOdayinum Asai vidumin-Asai refers to desire and not Love.Tirumular is only asking to eschew craving and is not discounting Loving devotion.
Namaskar.
Experientially to me, proof to me that the world could not exist without the Self, is entirely dependent on the Self, is Providence. Which I think explains things like the doors to the temple opening for Ramana. It's not magic, it's not a spell that Ramana cast. It's that the Self that was perfectly directing Ramana's body, Ramana's 'actions' were totally in accord, were the Self's actions. The Self, or Brahman that moved his body, also opened the door, because that's the way Brahman was moving the apparent world, and Ramana's 'body' was totally in accord with that Providence. I was thinking, that perhaps the miraculousness around a jnani, is because Brahman, really is all there is. And the jnani, is Brahman itself. When I take myself, when I assert myself deludedly as an ego, all of it's still Brahman, but my apparent body is acting out of accord with the Providence aspect of Brahman, which is the movement of all the objects in the world. The door opening for Ramana. Sometimes, perhaps I've posted comments more then once, but only because the computer was acting up, and telling me it didn't post, so I posted it again. Oh one more thing, this topic interested me, because I've been interested in emperor-sages. And some of the historical rulers that I think may have been enlightened, worldly events seemed to conspire so beautifully to fulfill their agenda. I also theorize that emperor sages manifest, when ignorance and adharma has exhausted it's potential to act out of accord with Providence, so that the only thing that can direct the movement of the world, is Providence. Suddenly a jnani is elected.
I think what Lincoln called Providence, is what Ramana Maharshi calls Ishvara!
Dear Ravi, This resonated with me.
It shows you're very insightful but still it's only an intellectual understanding. 'I understand,Self Enquiry is just another aspect of 'Neti' ,'Neti'-Just discard the nonself by dropping all attachment.As the gross attachments are dropped,the pull of the self manifests as Love and implodes into The self.The Self need not be enquired into.It simply knows itself.This is the very nature of the self.'
hj
Dear Mr. Ravi
Although you are semantically accurate, in the overall context of his post, the interpretation of Mr.Ramesh need not be off the mark?
Infact, this reminds me of an exchange(source:Talks) between Ramana Maharishi and a devotee which goes something like this:
"D: Why do I not have self-realisation?
M: Why do you desire self-realisation? Be as you are."
I dont have a copy of Talks on me right now. Will reproduce the exact words if possible.
The import of His answer is that the sadhaka must renounce his desire for self-realisation too in order to be the desireless state. Maharishi has equated God itself to a product of aham.
hj/kandhan/Friends,
"but still it's only an intellectual understanding."
Perhaps it is more like the river feeling like it is going to empty into the ocean.
Kandhan has referred to the Talk of Sri Bhagavan-
""D: Why do I not have self-realisation?
M: Why do you desire self-realisation? Be as you are."
I dont have a copy of Talks on me right now. Will reproduce the exact words if possible.
The import of His answer is that the sadhaka must renounce his desire for self-realisation too in order to be the desireless state. Maharishi has equated God itself to a product of aham."
As I see this,it is more out of curiosity that the question is put to Sri Bhagavan.Had it been a need,he might perhaps have received a different response.
As Sri Ramakrishna used to say-"Suppose a thief comes to know that a Great treasure is locked up in a Room;Will he rest content just imagining that he is going to open up the Room,lay his hands on the Treasure and carry home the Looty.Will he not just go about doing it somehow and will not rest content until he lays his hands on the Treasure."
What is the Nature of Desire?What is Desire for Self Realization?
More Later.
Namaskar.
For mature, advanced devotees who are on the verge of Self-Realization, just a look/silence of a Jnani is itself sufficient to establish them in SELF.
According to Bhagavan Ramana itself, his secondary teaching of Self-Enquiry is for the rest who cannot grasp/understand his primary teaching of Absolute Silence/Stillness.
It is a fact that without love for God/SELF/Peace/Bliss, one cannot start Self-Enquiry or any other spiritual practice.
As long as the Ego (illusory I-thought) exists, it is impossible to prevent Mind from generating thoughts.
That is why Bhagavan Ramana (in many places of his recorded talks) has advised, "Let the mind go in one direction only".
Making the Mind to Go in one direction could be achieved through Self Enquiry and Other spiritual practices.
The important thing is that whatever may be the spiritual practice unless "discrimination between Real/unreal and consequent detachment to worldly things" is cultivated, it impossible to obtain result from any spiritual practice. Anyone can know this by experience when they undertake spiritual practices.
Thanks. Sankar Ganesh.
What is the difference between samskaras and vasanas ? Are both based on past karmas ?
Thank you,
shiv
Shiv,
The prefix 'sam' means 'auspicious' or Good.Samskaras refer to those karmas that are deliberately and consciously recommended and performed to affect the Body and mind in a purposeful manner.They are performed to leave Positive Imprints or to overcome adverse Imprints.
Vasanas refer to the residual imprints as a result of action(Including Thought,Sight,Hearing,etc).The imprinting happens unconsciously and this has a Negative connotation.There is no purposefulness in this process and hence it is chaotic.
If some fortunate soul is attracted towards the spiritual Path,it can be said that this is a result of Good Samskaras.
We may say that vasanas are like an unmagnetised Needle-with all the tiny magnetic cells oriented at random directions.
Samskaras are more like a Needle that has been rubbed against a Magnet and has its tiny magnetic cells somewhat Oriented in an orderly fashion.In this way it is easier to convert it into a permanent Magnet.
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Namaskar.
I have been reading "I am - The First Name of God" on David Godman's site and have been much enriched by it. The blind man in Chapter 9 of St John's Gospel is mentioned but I believe it is important to add that once he returns seeing there is this almost pantomine discussion as to whether he is the same person or not. This is all leading to the previously blind man saying himself "ego eimi" (v9).
I do see the theology of St John's Gospel all about the incarnation of the manifestation/presence/word of God whose name is "I am". Previously the presence of God was believed to reside in the Temple - God's shekinah in the Holy of Holies. The great incarnational verse Ch 1 verse 14 has this rare Greek word (" made his tent among us") alluding to the Septuagint Old Testament.Many have noted the different ordering of the cleansing of the Temple in this Gospel but could it be that this is to emphasise that after Jesus's declaration of "Before Abraham was I am" in Chapter 8 v 58 "I am" leaves the Temple never to return ?
And what is the first thing that happens once "I am" is set "loose" on the world. Jesus is asked why a blind man is born blind and turns over a great deal of Jewish (and Christian) sin theology in his reply and then having shown this man how to regain his sight - and a mere ten verses after Jesus's "I am" - this man is saying the same.
"S has provided very good explanation on pitfalls of worshipping female God by a male."
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Please go through that post where s has said that Mahatmas recommend that women be looked upon as embodiments of Divine Mother-This is one of the simplest and sweetest ways of conquering Lust.
To worship God as Mother is perhaps the sweetest and most potent of sadhanas.
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Dear Ravi,
I was referring to the following quote posted by S, "it's also worth noticing that the greatest forms of bhaktI, both the mAtru bhAva and the mAdhura bhAva, are typically & primarily open only to women (men just can't do either, and those men who did have that as their principal bhAva are more rarer than a brahmajnAnI!!).".
As indicated by S, practicing the matru and madhura bhava to the core, purely depends on the sadhaka’s level. Sadhaka's level is somewhat linked to the predominent latent tendencies formed by mental impressions. As we interact in the world, consciously or unconsciously we accumulate information through our five senses. The information that we get attached to or we would like to possess gets recorded in the form of mental impressions (vasanas) within us.
Amalgamations of all these impressions decide the future flow of thoughts. We cling on to those thoughts dictated by the mental impressions. The thoughts eventually propels to perform actions (destiny). Apparently, the mental impressions and associated thoughts are stored in the form of latent tendencies. Even though the intent is to exhibit the actions as soon as possible, but it waits for the right moment(latent) Why? Besides, the necessary objects and situation to be present, our inetllect controls the temptation to exhibit the action.
For example, if a person wants to express anger towards his boss (whatever may be the reason), his intellect discriminates and commands not to exhibit the latent tendency at this point of time and accept whatever the boss says. Possibly, the same person could express the anger to his family when he is back at home, apparently for no reason (exhibition of latent tendency.)
How they are related to practicing matru bhava and madhura bhavan?
Depending on the level of spiritual maturity, the person may or may not have enough awareness to witness the inherent latent tendencies deep inside its womb. Lust is one of the common latent tendencies (there are exceptions.) The spiritual seeker may be in a state of denial of this type of latent tendency. Moreover, as mentioned earlier, the x factor is the intellect. The intellect might suppress the tendency for that moment, justifying that the act will affect his existing life situations. The person might think he has overcome the situation successfully using the intellect. But the impressions are not destroyed but waiting for the right moment to sprout. With those impressions it is tough to truly practice matru or madhura bhava.
DUE TO LIMITED SPACE THE COMMENT IS CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS COMMENTED POSTED ON RAVI’S REPLY ON FEMALE WORKSHIP BY MALE
We are in a catch 22 situation. On the one hand we must not encourage or express the latent tendencies, on the other we have to somehow figure out a way. First of all, we have to know our predominant latent tendencies as much as possible. The predominant latent tendencies are expressed in the form of compulsive actions (including thoughts). Bringing awareness will help us to identify the compulsive actions. The awareness acts as a witness and observes the thoughts and actions that we do on a daily basis. As we increase the duration of awareness, we will come to know more about our compulsive actions. Awareness also helps us to understand the impact of these forced actions in our daily life. As we start to acknowledge and understand the born defects of these actions, these actions slowly loose their significance.
Now, at this point of time, we cannot start controlling those compulsive actions by suppression. The moment we say “Don’t think of monkey”, nothing but monkey exists in our mind. Obviously, if the seeker’s one of the predominent latent tendency is lust or desire related to sex, he cannot practice matru or madhura bhava. He may continue to perform those actions and mitigate the impact by sublimation as much as possible. He has to explore other satvic avenues.
If the seeker is truly determined to take the spiritual path seriously, through awareness he will also find the other tendencies that are conducive to support the efforts toward this goal. This may include satsang, reading spiritual scriptures, japa, yama & niyama and other related Satvic activities. Encouraging and clinging on to those satvic thoughts will also help us to reduce those compulsive thoughts and actions. Even then, the latent tendencies persist but with less impact. The seeker slowly could become indifferent even while performing those actions triggered by vasanas. As the effort continues, the higher intelligence will automatically takes that person to a Guru (need not be alive, as they ever exist.) For example, contemplating on the teachings of Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi, combined with the practice of awareness will take us towards the goal. And by the grace of Guru, the seeker experiences the truth.
Now, after the experience, the shift in consciousness takes place. The seeker finds the thoughts do not belong to him, but to prakrithi (as defined in Gita). As a result, compulsive actions drop away. The effect of vasanas get destroyed in the abidance of Jnaana. Now, the person understands the concept of pure devotion and can practice matru and madhura bhava. Even then, there is a possibility the seeker gets tested with vasanas. As the experience by itself cannot be considered as a liberation, until it becomes permanent. This is very well explained by Bhagavan in “Talks with Ramana Maharishi”. But the first-hand experience helps him to handle the vasanas to a greater extent, as long as the person continues and strives to abide in the truth.
To summarize, it is tough to say that matru and madhur bhava is primarily suitable for all the seekers. We cannot practice the spiritual path by supression, rather by sublimation. Based on the latent tendencies of the seeker different avenues have to be explored with constant contemplation of Guru’s teachings, combined with awareness. The seeker will find a specific teaching that may not be suitable in the present moment, finds appropriate at a later stage including practicing matru and madhura bhava.
As I understand,Self Enquiry is just another aspect of 'Neti' ,'Neti'-Just discard the nonself by dropping all attachment.As the gross attachments are dropped,the pull of the self manifests as Love and implodes into The self.The Self need not be enquired into.It simply knows itself.This is the very nature of the self.
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Dear Ravi,
As you have mentioned, we are not enquiring the Self here, we are enquiring the false self (body, mind and intellect).
Basically, self-enquiry process peals the false “I” layers, until it reaches a stage where the real "I" shines forth.
What Ramesh says, makes so much sense. Sublimation instead of suppression. Everything else said, seems very profound as well. Seems to understand very deeply.
Ramesh Nagarajan,
Thanks very much for your wonderful exposition of the way of awareness and dropping of vasanas.
The Matru Bhava is something built into the firmware of all newborns,not just Humans but also animals,birds and other living beings.Only as we grow up we tend to look after 'ourself' and forget the basic instinct-Love.This spark can be rediscovered;only one needs to be simple and vulnerable.Become a child at heart and let this fundamental emotion,feeling, guide us back to the source in a natural way.
The company of Great ones helps us to regain this spring within.
There is a Difference between Bhava and Bhavana-Matru Bhava is to feel this basic Love;Bhavana is imagining that it is there!The way of Bhavana is the way of thought.It does not help.
Matru Bhava is very much within the reach of every average seeker.If this is there then all rejection of untoward vasanas becomes automatic.No need to do any sort of Policing on who is coming next.
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I enjoyed reading Sankar Ganesh's post as well.
Namaskar.
Dear All,
Thanks for your kind inputs.
I never had any doubts about "God (Sakthi) as Mother" worship. Mother feeling is the natural and universal feeling-experience of everyone right from the birth for all species. Only we have hidden it with lot of rubbish in our mind as we grow along with the growth of the Ego.
It is through "Mathru (Mother) Bhava" that Mother Teresa served millions of poor, destitute and other suffering masses through out the Globe. And the suffering masses in turn looked upon Mother Teresa as their very own Mother who took care of them with such love and tenderness when their own blood relatives/countrymen neglected them out of pure selfishness.
My earlier question regarding "God (Sakthi) as Lover" devotion was to find out your views so that I could advise a friend of mine who wanted to pursue that tricky path.
Now I shall advise him that "God as Mother" is the safest and natural one, if he wants to worship Sakthi.
Once again thank you all for your kind inputs especially Mr.Ravi.
K.
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