tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post8304338741186514647..comments2024-03-19T10:52:32.528+05:30Comments on Arunachala and Ramana Maharshi: Open ThreadDavid Godmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comBlogger590125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-49201031320228075492010-12-14T23:17:21.371+05:302010-12-14T23:17:21.371+05:30Things have been going good here at SAT. I'm j...Things have been going good here at SAT. I'm just commenting, because I accidentally entered the comment section. I talk to Nome, frequently. It takes me very deep. But I also have many of the same issues come up. But slowly, getting better. It's great!!!! Satsang is the greatest thing in the world!!!! Highly recommend!!!!Losing M. Mindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08593870441560584967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-1364185169629710722010-11-17T08:03:38.776+05:302010-11-17T08:03:38.776+05:30I was surprised how much C. S. Lewis, this being h...I was surprised how much C. S. Lewis, this being his only surviving audio, sounds so much like a Vedantist. Even a bit of a jnani-like wisdom.<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHxs3gdtV8A<br /><br />I don't see how to post as my Google/Blogger ID in Disqus.Losing M. Mindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08593870441560584967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-6769654485197547222010-11-17T07:07:20.419+05:302010-11-17T07:07:20.419+05:30David,
There is also a sync facility betwee...David,<br /> There is also a sync facility between disqus and blogger.If you go to Tools section of Disqus admin page then click Import/Export and select Blogger symbol that should take you to a page which gives you an option to Enable sync between both sites. As I tried blogger puts all synced comments into spam folder.<br /><br />If you want to use Disqus it is best to use the 'Recent Comments' utility provided by Disqus and remove Clemens' widget for now.<br />Have a look at my trial site:<br /><br />http://vijnanamaya.blogspot.com/<br /><br />-zAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-85567180908314937232010-11-17T01:38:46.424+05:302010-11-17T01:38:46.424+05:30David,
The Reactions info I posted earlier i...David,<br /> The Reactions info I posted earlier is meant for Posts and not comments.<br /><br />Initial comments on your problems.Once you use Disqus all comment data is stored on Disqus servers. So on your posts if I use Clemens' 'Recent Comments' widget to post a comment that data is stored on blogger.com website and if I use the Disqus links to make a comment that comment will be stored on disqus servers. <br />Unless a change is made to 'Recent Comments' script to pickup data from your disqus web location they will not be in sync. <br /><br />I installed Clemens' 'Recent Comments' script on a trial blog and it works fine for me.I also installed disqus and then imported the old comments.I am exactly in the same position as you.On top of it I have also installed a Recent Comments widget authored by Disqus.Go to the Tools section on Disqus site and you will find it.My trial blog is :<br /><br />vijnanamaya.blogspot.com<br /><br />One solution is, there is a 'Recent Comments' script that disqus gives you in the 'Tools' section. This only takes a couple of minutes to install.Although it is not as good as Clemens' script it does the job.<br /><br />I see on Disqus help blogs that Clemens has already gone throuh this problem.If you are keen to use Clemens' widget your best bet is to contact Clemens.Temporary solution is to use the Disqus widget and disable Clemens' untill he can fix it.Before you do this you will have to see if you can import back all comments from disqus on to blogger incase you decide to abandon disqus.Your best bet is to work with trial sites untill you are sure.Please send me an email if you want the login information for my trial site which I created today.My email : fame1390@gmail.com<br /><br />-zAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-42098772924116694372010-11-16T21:27:16.835+05:302010-11-16T21:27:16.835+05:30David,
You were mentioning about rating com...David,<br /> You were mentioning about rating comments. Have you considered using 'Reactions':Following is a tutorial:<br />http://buzz.blogger.com/2008/11/reactions-easily-engage-your-readers.html<br /><br />-ZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-14610215933546995362010-11-16T15:33:17.639+05:302010-11-16T15:33:17.639+05:30Rodeger Rodger 2Rodeger Rodger 2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-39029278036083388662010-11-16T15:03:39.536+05:302010-11-16T15:03:39.536+05:30Rodger RodgerRodger RodgerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-59054410768617147092010-11-16T04:32:24.098+05:302010-11-16T04:32:24.098+05:30Cont.
So I think with Ravi and myself we see a co...Cont.<br /><br />So I think with Ravi and myself we see a conflict here between two different approaches, and two different kinds of faith. Traditional faith is not inferior to the kind of faith that self-enquiry engenders, but they are very different paths, and they are not always compatible with one another. The attitude of questioning everything can seem threatening to the traditional approach, and the traditional ways of faith may seem to be obstructions to the practice of self-enquiry. <br /><br />The problem for the traditional path of faith is that the modern world, while certainly not devoted to self-enquiry, is yet very much growing in the inclination to question everything, including traditional religious paths. And yet there is also a reaction to this among traditional believers, that leads them increasingly towards fundamentalist viewpoints as protection against this questioning and doubt. And that is why I think that Ramana's approach of self-enquiry has increasing relevance to the modern religious debates taking place, since it offers not a compromise, but an alternative path that those who are inclined to question and doubt may engage that does not require them to adopt traditional beliefs and practices. Likewise, some who are trying to defend the traditional path but finding themselves undermined by some of the very sensible doubts and questions raised by the critics of religion, can find a new kind of faith through self-enquiry, one that is rooted in the origins of all religions, including sanatana dharma, but which does not require blanket belief and acceptance of traditional faith. <br /><br />So there is no genuine need for conflict here. I do not wish to undermine Ravi's faith in the traditional path. As an aside, I do have the Sankaracharya of Kanchi's book “Introduction to Hindu Dharma” and it has been a valuable reference book for me on the traditional precepts of sanatana dharma. But I am invariably inclined towards Sri Ramana's path of self-enquiry, and this simply does not allow me to accept such precepts or traverse the traditional path. I have already questioned and parted from many of my own culture's religious and even secular assumptions, and I see no need to affirm those of other cultures, when they would only be undermined by self-enquiry in any case. But for Ravi it is a different story. I would only hope that in spite of his faith in caste and varna, that he still relate to all others as his very Self, and act towards them as he would wish they would act towards him.Broken Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257804418740860542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-76118168002224017472010-11-16T04:28:54.941+05:302010-11-16T04:28:54.941+05:30cont.
The second important matter that must be me...cont.<br /><br />The second important matter that must be mentioned is that the practice of self-enquiry also naturally leads one to question everything in one's life. Self-enquiry is of course a question that points to the very heart of one's own being, and thus, as one begins to question this assumption of separate self and ego, the asana of questioning naturally begins to take over one's approach to everything. If the core of one's being is subject to question, so is everything else, and this cannot really be avoided. One no longer takes for granted the assumptions we have made about ourselves and one another, and even ordinary social conventions are questioned as well. Those that don't seem to have a real basis in our experience are naturally discarded, and those that seem to be founded on basic realities become useful for ordinary living.<br /><br />Thus, it is simply natural for those practicing self-enquiry in the manner Sri Ramana prescribed to begin to question such matters as caste and varna. It is not that one necessarily rejects everything about them, but the attitude of questioning naturally reveals that much of what they purport to describe or prescribe simply is not there. They are seen to be as weak and ephemeral as the ego itself, and are even understood to derive from egoity, and not from something fixed by God or even our natural human qualities. So in those who practice self-enquiry, the sense of caste is weakened and the practices related to it often appear to be unnecessary and even counter-productive to a life of self-realizing practice and faith. <br /><br />However, it must also be mentioned that Sri Ramana was wary of criticizing any aspect of anyone religious life, lest people lose faith in it. Sri Ramana did not wish to force people to question their religious beliefs or faith, since faith to him was more important even than intellectually correct understanding, and the path of self-enquiry should only be taken up by those willing to “risk all” on the process of undermining the ego and all its attendant beliefs and assumptions. For those not so inclined, it is important for them to preserve their faith, even if that means continuing to believe in things and practices that Ramana felt were in error, or unsubstantiated by a deeper inspection. So Ramana did not try to correct people's belief in caste or jati or any number of traditional beliefs and practices, unless of course they were fully devoted to his path of self-enquiry and were capable of withstanding the nakedness that is brought on by its practice. <br /><br />Most people of faith simply do not question their faith, they affirm it and all its aspects, and they do not practice self-enquiry because it would tend to undermine their unquestioning faith in their traditional approach. And this is simply as it is for many people, and those who practice self-enquiry must accept this and not go to war with those who adhere to the traditional approach to faith. In self-enquiry, one cultivates a different kind of faith, a faith in the process of questioning itself, in which one has faith even as the ground is taken out from under one's feet bit by bit. This is a relatively dangerous path, in that it requires great faith that one will be supported by reality, and that one does not need the conventional supports of traditional faith, but only a radical faith in the power of the Self to keep one going even as everything one questions is undermined and falls away. <br /><br />cont.Broken Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257804418740860542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-79388793206466669272010-11-16T04:25:13.403+05:302010-11-16T04:25:13.403+05:30Cont.
Caste is merely a social custom, imposed ar...Cont.<br /><br />Caste is merely a social custom, imposed artificially upon human beings without regard to their actual individual nature and qualities. One who practices self-enquiry is able to see this rather quickly, because his attention is to the Self in all, not to the differences in the body-mind, and since he is not attached to the differences in the body-mind, he is able to see how those differences arise without prejudice and can relate to all of those differences without imposing a fixed set of categories and social conventions upon them.<br /><br />Sri Ramana related to every individual differently and uniquely, apprehending directly their various qualities and needs, and responding to them as they were. He was able to do this because he accepted both himself and others exactly as they were, without imposing mind and concepts upon them. He did not relate to others based on caste or jati precisely because he did not see these in people, at least not as prescribed by convention. He would of course respect a person's qualities and inclinations, their natural varnic and gunic characters, but he saw such things directly, as they actually were, rather than as society does. And in this way he was able to serve people in the best possible manner, seeing them directly as the Self, and yet also taking into account their various vasanas and qualities as they were.<br /><br />This was a teaching in itself for others to emulate as best they could. Sri Ramana was not a social preacher, he taught in that area by example. It was for others to simply observe how he related to each one as they were, and to notice that there was nothing random or conceptual in his approach to devotees, there was always the direct apprehension of the total person and the response to that person as they were. This is what one learns from self-enquiry, and the practice of self-enquiry naturally produces this sort of social grace and kindness and empathy. It is the basis for a real human culture not based on social conventions, but on direct attention to the Self in all. <br /><br />So we cannot say that self-enquiry is only something that affects our inner sense of self. It also affects our entire life and relations, because these depend entirely upon our inner self and the assumption we project upon the world around us. Self-enquiry show us how to function from a different perspective and see one another differently. We are naturally freed from social conditioning and convention, and relate to one another as a single Self with many bodies. We begin to see that everything we thought we knew about ourselves and others was a lie. And so we begin to live this truth, to oneself and others, even by the most simple activities. That is how Sri Ramana instructed, by simply living in this direct way to those around him. There was no room for caste or jati in such a life, other than as a convention one sometimes had to tolerate because of social custom. To Sri Ramana, it was a simple, gregarious life among equals.<br /><br />Cont.Broken Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257804418740860542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-68232957518938029212010-11-16T04:09:38.834+05:302010-11-16T04:09:38.834+05:30S. and Ravi,
Let me address caste in relation to ...S. and Ravi,<br /><br />Let me address caste in relation to the practice of self-enquiry, since that is the primary focus of Sri Ramana's teaching. <br /><br />The first thing to mention is that the practice of self-enquiry, while primarily directed towards oneself, has natural and indisputable implications for the whole of one's life, one's relationship with others, and one's conduct. Most directly, we see that we are not a separate self, an ego, or a body - and neither is anyone else.<br /><br />Self-enquiry shows us that in reality there are no "others", there is only one Self with many bodies. This is not merely an intellectual understanding, it is a natural disposition in consciousness that applies to everything about us, inside and out. Thus, we find it natural to live by Jesus' admonition to "love the Lord your God with all your heart and spirit, and you neighbor as your self."<br /><br />Self-enquiry undermines and finally destroys bit by bit the sense of separate self, and the sense that others are in any way intrinsically different from us or each other. One no longer makes conceptual distinctions about others, one does not classify them by this or that artificial label or status. One simply accepts them as they are, without qualification or conditions. Thus, self-enquiry leads naturally to a disposition of unconditional love towards others.<br /><br />This does not mean that there are no practical distinctions in life. One does not literally presume everyone is the same height or sex or character, one is able to see the bodily and mental distinctions in function and quality quite well, but one does not confuse these with the self of each person, which is Divine and non-separate. Nor does one consider any of these qualities and functions pure or impure - all purity is of the heart, the self, and nothing else is either pure nor impure.<br /><br />It is easy to see that people differ in outer appearance and function. Even in the west, where there are social classes but no fixed castes or jatis, we still can see that there are all types of people. There are priestly and scholarly types, there are politicians, military and police types, there are businessmen, tradesmen, professionals, skilled laborers, unskilled laborers, and there are those who are handicapped, and so on. There is a wide range of human types, and people fall rather naturally into one or more of these categories, while yet retaining the qualities of many. <br /><br />Self-enquiry does not erase these basic facts of human nature. However, it does not define people by them either. They are just the various qualities of life, like the gunas, representing various vasanas and samskaras. Self-enquiry is not at war with these, nor does it try to organize them. It recognizes that the Self transcends and merely witnesses these, allowing them to find their natural order in the play of human life.<br /><br />The problem with caste and jati is that it imposes upon this natural order a fixed social classification that actually interferes with the natural order of things. The desire for stability and security leads men to impose artificial social customs upon a diversity that is simply not created by hereditary or one's social environment. <br /><br />If there really were fixed genetic or social groups in which these qualities were passed on, it would be one thing. Then human beings would be composed of different species or widely differing races or breeds, as in dogs. But it is not so ordered by nature or heavenly design. It is human beings who have imposed this design.<br /><br />Cont.Broken Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257804418740860542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-10557618781791465022010-11-15T21:42:25.372+05:302010-11-15T21:42:25.372+05:30You know, I was re-reading an interview with David...You know, I was re-reading an interview with David Godman. And there were a bunch of things that struck me. Being here at SAT Temple, Papaji's statements about how, once you have reached the Guru, then nothing need be done. Something along those lines. That really strikes me over-archingly true. Nome advocates intense practice. But I feel more benefit letting the grace of being here act on me, and letting their instruction slay my ego, then doing something on my own. It's more my devotion to the cause of letting my ego be humbled that really helps (which sometimes hurts) Nome's words agree with Ramana's on effort. And it struck me, David Godman was saying that Papaji and Ramana clearly disagreed on the importance of effort. Honestly, from my experience, I don't really think jnanis have 'teachings' (in the sense of a philosophy). Their teachings are what they are, and since what they are is the same, their teachings are the same, and what they say, is meant to engender the same result in the person they are talking to (even if they use different words to engender that result), or undermines the vasanas. And really is beyond even concepts of volition like that. Because there isn't even that much duality. The jnani speaks from that statement in the Upanishads, that there are none in bondage, none liberated, none striving for liberation. That is the highest Truth. I don't think they are really even laying out a path (the path is our approach to understanding it, and not getting caught up in our alternative ignorance which seems to inevitably fail), there words when spoken are the Existence itself that they speak of, along with their silences which are all the Silence (whether talking or not). So I don't know if it makes sense in my experience that Ramana and Papaji had any disagreement. Their words appeared to differ in a few places. "teachings" seem to imply a duality, or that there are unrealized. I mean, I am unrealized, but the practice is to eliminate "him", or let "him" be eliminated. -lol Maybe that's the difference between devotion and inquiry. -lolLosing M. Mindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08593870441560584967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-67506603838695715212010-11-15T17:06:11.839+05:302010-11-15T17:06:11.839+05:30Friends,
what exactly is the meaning of "upa...Friends,<br /><br />what exactly is the meaning of "upadesha sahasri" (Sankaras book title)?<br /><br />Is this right translated with "A Thousand Teachings"?Clemens Vargas Ramoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06257066933525899061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-33516520793986186052010-11-15T11:39:44.467+05:302010-11-15T11:39:44.467+05:30Broken yogi is quite convincing. His opinions thou...Broken yogi is quite convincing. His opinions thoughtful and measured. Of course Ravi has a vested interest in explaining away the excesses of the caste system.<br />I wonder if a dalit, sudra or adivasi would argue with such passion and zealotry about the strengths of the caste system.<br />hjAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-71375580493270757522010-11-15T11:34:21.018+05:302010-11-15T11:34:21.018+05:30Broken Yogi, i think you are alot older than you s...Broken Yogi, i think you are alot older than you say you are, and you posed these questions to Maharshi -lol. No, seriously, for me, anyway, this ends this debate. I copied this off some weird internet site.<br /><br />22nd August, 1938Talk 507D. DevoteeM. Ramana Maharshi<br />D.: Aurobindo does not approve of castes. Do you approve of them?M.:Â.As for Aurobindo, you ask him.Â.As for my opinion, how does it matter to you? How will it be of use to you? Have you got any opinion on the matter? That alone will affect you, not the opinion of others.<br />D.: I do not approve of the caste system. Mahatma’s opinion is valuable as a guidance. I want your blessings in my attempts.Â.M.: Mahatma has told you to seek and find your Self. You will not do it but require his blessings.<br />D.: I am trying to follow the instructions. But caste-distinction is painful. It must go.M.: To whom does it cause pain?D.: The members of the society...<br />M.:Â.It is you who say it. There are countries where there are no such distinctions of caste. Are they free from trouble? There are wars,internecine struggle, etc. Why do you not remedy the evils there?<br />D.: There are troubles here also.M.:Â.Differences are always there. There are not only human beings, but also animals, plants, etc. The state of affairs cannot be helped.<br />D.: We do not mind the animals, etc., at present.M.: Why not? If they could speak they would claim equality with you and dispute your claims no less vigorously than human beings.D.: But we cannot help it. It is God’s work.<br />M.: If that is God’s work then the other part is your work, is that so?D.: It is man-made distinction.M.: You need not notice these distinctions. There is diversity in the world.Â.A unity runs through the diversity. The Self is the same in all.Â.There is no difference in spirit. All the differences are external and superficial. You find out the Unity and be happy.<br />The pain of diversity is overcome by the joy of the perception of unity. Moreover, a king may disguise himself as a servant. That makes no difference in the person.D.: I do not object to differences. But the claims of superiority are wrong.<br />M.: There are differences in the limbs of one’s body. When the hand touches the foot the hand is not defiled. Each limb performs its function. Why do you object to differences?D.: The people feel the injustice of caste distinction. It must be rooted out.<br />M.: You can individually arrive at the state where such distinctions are not perceived and be happy. How can you hope to reform the world? Even if you try you cannot succeed.Â.Kavyakantha Ganapati Sastri offered to initiate Harijans with mantras and make Brahmins of them. But the Harijans did not come forward to accept the offer.<br />That shows they are themselves afflicted by an inferiority complex.Remove that complex first before you try to reform others.Moreover, why do you go to places where such distinctions are observed and cause pain to yourself? Why should you not seek places where they are not observed and be happy there?<br />Gandhiji also tries to bring about equality.Â.He is also up against the barrier of inferiority complex afflicting the lower orders.Â.He cannot enforce his views on others. He observes non-violence. So matters stand as they are.<br />D.: We must work to obliterate caste-distinctions.M.: Then do it. If you have succeeded in the world, then see if the distinctions persist in this place.D.: This must be the first place where I want to effect the reform.<br />M.: Why do you exert yourself so much to effect reforms? Go to sleep and see if there are differences. There you obliterate differences without any effort. (Laughter).External differences are bound to persist, however hard we may try to obliterate them. The attempts of so-called social reformers, to do away with such classes or divisions as varnasrama has created, have not succeeded, but have only created new divisions and added a few more castes or classes to the already existing ones, such as the Brahmo-Samajists and the Arya-Samajists.Â.<br />The only solution is for each man to realise his true nature.Losing M. Mindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08593870441560584967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-6957920747597152272010-11-15T11:12:55.843+05:302010-11-15T11:12:55.843+05:30There is a dialogue in Talks where Maharshi answer...There is a dialogue in Talks where Maharshi answers a devotee on this exact subject. I might look for it. I remember he brought up "deep sleep". And something about how the devotee could realize a state in which he did not see such distinctions. He also brought up how despite Ghandiji's efforts, the Harijans had an inferiority complex and so would not let themselves be initiated by him as Brahmins. "So matter's stand as they are". Essentially he was directing the devotee to turn within, rather then look without. I think he was outraged that caste was observed at Ramansramam. I'm sure David knows what dialogue I'm talking about. I feel like it could end this debate.Losing M. Mindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08593870441560584967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-40037437021149617972010-11-15T09:41:26.363+05:302010-11-15T09:41:26.363+05:30salutations to all:
broken yogi & ravi: i thin...salutations to all:<br />broken yogi & ravi: i think everyone who has come to bhagavAn has at least a rudimentary understanding of what's good & what's not good, isn't it? beyond that, all belief is bondage, including that of 'ahimsa', for only a bhagavAn really knows what 'ahimsa' really is. as long as we are entangled within our so-called minds, what ahimsa are we talking about? after all, bhagavAn also said that as long as one hasn't realised one's true self, one is culpable of 'brahma-hatyA'!<br /><br />you and ravi come from very different cultures, and the way your arguments have been flowing, it's clear that no consensus is possible. to argue on social structures and deliberate over what is & what isn't wrong is an extremely complex terrain, which more often than not is bound to culminate in objections than agreements. the only 'beliefs' where people could argue and sort-of arrive at an unequivocal understanding are mathematical propositions, and even that is far from being perfect :-) what to talk of the rest?<br /><br />it isn't hard to see that bhagavAn emphasised only one thing for over half a century - 'enquire & realise, and all questions will be answered'. everything else is a distraction, no matter how noble or ignoble they may or may not be :-)s.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-14455040410792084252010-11-15T08:23:34.786+05:302010-11-15T08:23:34.786+05:30Broken Yogi,
"when he is engaged in serving a...Broken Yogi,<br />"when he is engaged in serving another for pay, he is in Shudra-hood; when he is busy transacting some some piece of business for profit, on his account, he is a Vaishya; when he fights to right wrongs then the qualities of a Kshatriya come out in him; and when he meditates on God, or passes his time in conversation about Him, then he is a Brahmana. "<br /><br />Yes,it is important to understand this.Just like the Gunas Satva,Rajas and Tamas-the three are always mixed (it is only in a sage ,we have what is called Shuddha Satva),and the predominance is what determines who a person is.Quite the same in the Varna-and Sanathana Dharma had maximised the potential and given the varnas an opportunity to strengthen the 'predominant' varna.This has a huge advantage in that by large,it runs on its own without the need for frequent reforms.No one is anyway divorced from the Spiritual pursuit which is purely a 'private' affair,be it the Brahmin or the Dalit.This is not like the Muslim or the Christian where Public worship is considered the main form of worship,irrespective of what one may be doing privately.<br />There is a wonderful balance and the beauty of this is something that cannot be effaced by whatever aberrations that are of purely social origin.<br />Wherever there are exceptions as dictated by the Predominant Varna,such a change was accommodated in a smooth manner,and respected.A Kshatriya could become a Brahmin like viswamitra or a Brahmin could become a Khatriya like Dronacharya.<br />There are many stories of Kings who have stood up impartially wherever such crimes have been commited.<br />one of the Legendary stiories is that of the Chola King(Manu neethi Cholan)who compensated the grievance of a cow whose calf was overrun by his son's chariot.It is said that a bell with a rope used to be hund near the doorsteps of his palace and whoever wanted justice can ring it at all hours.The cow went and pulled this rope and it is believed that the King after due enquiry understood the grievance of the cow and ruled a similiar treatment on his son,the prince.<br />There are many such stories of the sacrificing nature of the 'Orthodox Brahmin' but these are not convenient for the political leaders or the Propagandists.<br />Please do not mixup social evils(always exceptions than the rule)with the spiritual dimensions of this system.<br />Namaskar.Ravihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875076137584328729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-67551459156143449422010-11-15T08:03:35.392+05:302010-11-15T08:03:35.392+05:30Broken Yogi,
"Further, to claim that it is th...Broken Yogi,<br />"Further, to claim that it is their karma, that God has willed this upon such people, is a pointless self-rationalization. If I steal your wallet, rob your home, abuse your children, debase your wife, and then tell you it is your karma, the will of God, and that therefore you have no right to complain, how seriously will you take that rationalization? "<br /><br />I do not understand how you got this grotesque idea of 'Karma'!If you equate being born into a 'Dalit' family (or a Brahmin family)is tantamount to all the above that you have said,this is proof enough the sort of Brainwash that has happened.Do you mean to say all Dalits had to suffer such a fate.Such things happen to all people and there is no need to discriminate between the Brahmins and the dalits like you seem to be doing.The Brahmins had to face the brunt of the Mohammedan invasions and whatever you have mentioned did happen to them.These are purely 'antisocial' activities and they need to be handled as such and not get mixed with 'Varna Dharma' or Religion.There is simply no sanction in sastras for such despicable activities.<br /><br />All I have said is that to be born in wherever family is a Result of one's Karma.To undergo whatever suffering is also part of that karma.This 'suffering' cannot be understood in the ordinary sense of the term.One may have to 'suffer' by being born in a drunkard's family and imbibing that habit.Others may view it as 'Privileged'!<br />As can be clearly seen,these are not to be viewed from the superficial point of view ,but from the wholistic angle.<br />-----------------------------------<br />Friend,I am amused when you say that 'ravi's attitude needs to be changed'and that you are trying to do that.Please leave that to me!<br /><br />I do not aim to change your belief as I have already said.I have carried out this discussion to clear the smog and smoke over some of these core values that have been the vanguard of Sanathana Dharma.Ravihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875076137584328729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-24638423847643926442010-11-15T07:40:08.724+05:302010-11-15T07:40:08.724+05:30Broken Yogi,
" If a dalit can be a great sage...Broken Yogi,<br />" If a dalit can be a great sage, then he can also be a priest, a warrior, a businessman, or function perfectly well in any area of society. No man is “untouchable”, and to impose that status upon him and his children, generation after generation, is a terrible injustice, an act of violence, an evil. This ought to be clear to any sensible person capable of human empathy."<br />Friend,you say that you understand the Varna system and the above does not seem to bring it out.I have already posted the rationale behind this organization;I have also posted how this is a flexible system-how Rajarishi Viswamitra aspired and became Brahma Rishi.<br />All functions and divisions are equally to be valued and dignity of Labour is paramount.<br />This does not mean that 'untouchability' is not there,as I have explained this is not to be viewed as a Stigma.Your whole 'conjecture' is based on this stigmatizing of 'untouchables'.Let me draw from Dr David Frawley(vamadeva Sastri-an American)on the rationale behind 'untouchability',from his book-"How I became a Hindu':<br />Untouchability is also misunderstood. It was<br />originally a matter of social purity, reflecting the<br />principle of non-violence. Brahmins could not eat<br />out of utensils in which meat or other impure food<br />articles had been cooked. This led to a ban on<br />eating with non-Brahmins; particularly those who<br />had impure forms of livelihood like butchers. This<br />led eventually to a ban on association with such<br />How I Became a Hindu – David Frawley<br />143<br />people.<br />Untouchability arose from an excessive pursuit of<br />purity, like the purity of a monk who could not<br />associate with those who worked in bars or<br />taverns. Unfortunately this untouchability became<br />extreme and has become a bane on Hindu society.<br />But it is hardly the same situation as the rich<br />European aristocracy who would not mingle with<br />peasants."<br />-----------------------------------<br />There is more to this 'untouchability'-the one(A Brahmin) who gets up from sleep is akin to one who has risen from 'Death' and is expected to take a bath before he can physically mingle with the rest.Likewise there are a thousand such restrictions that even if allowed to be a Brahmin,one will choose not to be one!It is indeed very arduous to be a Brahmin.No degree of so called incentives can goad one to become a Brahmin(the so called Privilege!)and in all probability,the ' newly privileged one' would run away!It is only when one grows up as a child with this sort of austere Lifestyle that one can adjust to this Lifestyle.<br />Ditto with other Varnas as well-it is only when one is inducted young that one can be dipped in 'colour' and become that 'colour'.<br />The Kshatriya of those days had to depend on his Physical courage and valour and not like today where one may sit cozily and fire a cruize missile to hit a target!Yes,even a weakling will be okay to do that sort of a 'Military job'.<br /><br />to be continued.....Ravihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875076137584328729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-23348642758275951792010-11-15T01:16:21.935+05:302010-11-15T01:16:21.935+05:30S,
It is unfortunate that Ravi and I disagree so ...S,<br /><br />It is unfortunate that Ravi and I disagree so strongly, but airing our disagreement does not go against Bhagavan's teachings. This is not merely some abstract philosophical point, this goes to the very core of how we live our lives, the principle of ahimsa. <br /><br />I am not trying to do violence to Ravi or to the people of India. That is already being done, even now, and that is not something to walk past indifferently or merely say "that's their karma".<br /><br />Sri Ramana said that it was a false approach to not interfere with violence when it occurs. He once remarked about how wrong it would be for a man to walk past a woman being raped, and merely remark, "well, that's Brahman". He said it was appropriate to intervene and stop the violence if possible. And that is what we are talking about here - stopping the violence and oppression and discrimination that is going on in the name of caste and varna and sanatana dharma. It is appropriate to at least make efforts in that direction, even if we cannot completely change it. We can certainly disassociate our spirituality from it, and make it clear that this has nothing to do with genuine dharma of any kind. <br /><br />A big part of putting an end to that violence and oppression is to change people's attitudes. I think Ravi's attitude really does need to change, and perhaps speaking out will help him see that. Perhaps not. I am not going on crusade here, I am just responding to something I see that is deeply inappropriate, especially on a forum devoted to Sri Ramana, who did not see caste distinctions and did not discriminate against devotees on that basis. I know there are many spiritual teachers in India who uphold caste and defend its crimes as part of the necessary price to pay for its alleged benefits. Sri Ramana never supported such notions. He was not an outspoken reformer, but he quietly disregarded such modes of thought and action whenever possible. <br /><br />I fully agree with Ravi's notion that one cannot ignore the larger social sphere, but disgree strongly with his notion of how spiritual principles should organize themselves there. Sri Ramana's teachings as applied to the collective makes no room for the kind of harm done by any such system. Caste and varna are acceptable as customs as long as they do not breed violence, discrimination, privilege and division. When they do, as they have for centuries and at present, they must be called out and not allowed to perpetuate their sins without some kind of intervention, within the limits of sound and sane speech and action.Broken Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257804418740860542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-74567911304136190952010-11-14T22:11:42.133+05:302010-11-14T22:11:42.133+05:30Vivekananda was not opposed to the caste system in...Vivekananda was not opposed to the caste system in principle, but the principle he upheld was quite different than that of the current caste system:<br /><br />The plan in India is to make everybody Brahmana, the Brahmana being the ideal of humanity. If you read the history of India you will find that attempts have always been made to raise the lower classes. Many are the classes that have been raised. Many more will follow till the whole will become Brahmana. That is the plan. Our ideal is the Brahmana of spiritual culture and renunciation. <br /><br />By the Brahmana ideal what do I mean? I mean the ideal Brahmana-ness in which worldliness is altogether absent and true wisdom is abundantly present. That is the ideal of the Hindu race. Have you not heard how it is declared he, the Brahmana, is not amenable to law, that he has no law, that he is not governed by kings, and that his body cannot be hurt? That is perfectly true. Do not understand it in the light thrown upon it by interested and ignorant fools, but understand it in the light of the true and original Vedantic conception. <br /><br />If the Brahmana is he who has killed all selfishness and who lives to acquire and propagate wisdom and the power of love - if a country is altogether inhabited by such Brahmanas, by men and women who are spiritual and moral and good, is it strange to think of that country as being above and beyond all law? What police, what Military are necessary to govern them? Why should any one govern them at all? Why should they live under a government? They are good and noble, and they are the men of God; these are our ideal Brahmanas, and we read that in the SatyaYuga there was only one caste, and that was the Brahmana. <br /><br />We read in the Mahabharata that the whole world was in the beginning peopled with Brahmanas, and that as they began to degenerate they became divided into different castes, and that when the cycle turns round they will all go back to that Brahmanical origin. The son of a Brahmana is not necessarily always a Brahmana; though there is every possibility of his being one, he may not become so. <br /><br />The Brahmana caste and the Brahmana quality are two distinct things. As there are sattva, rajas and tamas - one or other of these gunas more or less - in every man, so the qualities which make a Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya or a Shudra are inherent in every man, more or less. But at time one or other of these qualities predominates in him in varying degrees and is manifested accordingly. <br /><br />Take a man in his different pursuits, for example : when he is engaged in serving another for pay, he is in Shudra-hood; when he is busy transacting some some piece of business for profit, on his account, he is a Vaishya; when he fights to right wrongs then the qualities of a Kshatriya come out in him; and when he meditates on God, or passes his time in conversation about Him, then he is a Brahmana. Naturally, it is quite possible for one to be changed from one caste into another. Otherwise, how did Viswamitra become a Brahmana and Parashurama a Kshatriya? <br /><br />The means of European civilization is the sword; of the Aryans, the division into different varnas. This system of division into varnas is the stepping-stone to civilization, making one rise higher and higher in proportion to one's learning and culture. In Europe, it is everywhere victory to the strong and death to the weak. In the land of Bharata (India), every social rule is for the protection of the weak. Such is our ideal of caste, as meant for raising all humanity slowly and gently towards the realization of the great ideal of spiritual man, who is non-resisting, calm, steady, worshipful, pure and meditative. In that ideal there is God.Broken Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257804418740860542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-83709805658005511162010-11-14T21:52:54.463+05:302010-11-14T21:52:54.463+05:30Ravi, cont.
Lakshmanjoe, the famed Kashmiri Shaiv...Ravi, cont.<br /><br />Lakshmanjoe, the famed Kashmiri Shaivite master, often said that in this, the Kali yuga, the order of society has been reversed artificially, and that it is the lowest who are actually the highest in spiritual terms, that it is the servant classes who are the most spiritually advanced, and the priestly classes who are the lowest and least spiritually capable of understanding the true dharma. This exchange merely confirms this to me. To bring about the true order of the real sanatana dharma, this must be set right. Caste discrimination has obscured the true varnic nature of human beings. Just as maya obscures Brahman, caste has obscured the true Brahmanas among us. One must throw off these illusions and see human beings in the true light of Brahman, not the false light of caste. <br /><br />I have no argument with your assertion that sanatana dharma must be put into action in life and society through the creation of a just social order. I merely point out that this has not been done in India. In fact, the caste system has created the reverse situation. Perhaps once long ago Inda was a truly spiritual society built on genuine spiritual principles of varna, or perhaps those are just idealized mythologies. In any case, the present social order of India is not a just and Divinely ordered society, and one of the main reasons is caste and its legacy of injustice and evil. So long as those espousing sanatana dharma also insist on imposing caste restrictions on people, India will never achieve the social order true sanatana dharma points to. One reason is that the wrong people are on top. Rather than spiritually worthy people rising to the top of the social order, caste has placed unworthy, debased and corrupt individuals who are the legacy of a criminal system at its top. This is not varna dharma. The true spiritual worth of those designated as dalits is not recognized and honored, and instead the corruptions of the upper castes are lionized.<br /><br />This is slowly being reformed, I am aware, but the main resistance to reform of course comes from those who benefit from the status quo, those in the higher castes, who want to reserve their privileged positions for themselves and their children, and don't want to have to compete with the lower castes. They even use spiritual ideals and the greatness of India's spiritual traditions to justify their crimes and privilege. This further debases sanatana dharma, until it becomes indistinguishable from any other form of class exploitation, and of course it leads to dissent and rebellion and even the rejection of sanatana dharma. The solution to this is not to double-down on this corrupt system, but to purge it of these evils.Broken Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257804418740860542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-71701038467141606282010-11-14T21:49:10.378+05:302010-11-14T21:49:10.378+05:30Ravi,
Either I have not made myself clear or you ...Ravi,<br /><br />Either I have not made myself clear or you are not reading me properly. I have never suggested that varna dharma is the root of evil. It is the caste system that is evil, and that evil is not intellectual or mythical, it is a real physical evil, demonstrated in the lives of the 160 million plus dalits, as well as in many other lower classes, and not merely in the present, but for many centuries. I think the links I have provided demonstrate the reality of this evil, and this is not refuted by pointing to cases of dalits rising above their caste or stories from scriptures of dalits who became great sages. <br /><br />If anything, this demonstrates that there is no spiritual basis for segregating people into such classes at all. If a dalit can be a great sage, then he can also be a priest, a warrior, a businessman, or function perfectly well in any area of society. No man is “untouchable”, and to impose that status upon him and his children, generation after generation, is a terrible injustice, an act of violence, an evil. This ought to be clear to any sensible person capable of human empathy. <br /><br />Further, to claim that it is their karma, that God has willed this upon such people, is a pointless self-rationalization. If I steal your wallet, rob your home, abuse your children, debase your wife, and then tell you it is your karma, the will of God, and that therefore you have no right to complain, how seriously will you take that rationalization? You would expect the authorities to arrest me and punish me according to the law, and consider my excuses to be sheer madness. But the same has been done to the dalits for centuries and you assume it to be their ordained destiny. Is not that sheer madness?<br /><br />You claim that the caste system is a form of genetic engineering. This is simply false. Genetic testing has revealed no genetic basis for caste. The genes of the higher castes and lower castes are the same. There is no racial or genetic component to caste. There is no observable genetic distinction in the abilities or inclinations of each caste. What you are putting forth is merely a variant on the many racist theories of blood and genes that have been promoted by some of the most evil social and political regimes on earth, including the white supremacists of my own country. You are putting yourself and varna dharma in some truly terrible company by making these assertions. <br /><br />The real problem with the varna system is the conflation of its social principles with the realities of the caste system. You try to defend those realities by referring to scriptures and the various ideals they describe about the differing characters of mankind. But if putting such ideals into practice involves the wholesale debasing of the dalits, then they are simply not genuine spiritual or social ideals, they are selfish, egoic rationalizations for criminal violence and class exploitation and abuse. If Vsaya is a true example of the dalits, then treat every dalit as Vsaya, the guru of gurus. If that is how sanatana dharma comes into being, be true to that, and not to this hereditary caste system. Treat the dalits as your spiritual superiors, not inferiors.<br /><br />cont.Broken Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257804418740860542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-52769104898982847032010-11-14T20:44:49.603+05:302010-11-14T20:44:49.603+05:30So Ravi,
How would you apply all that you ...So Ravi,<br /> How would you apply all that you said so far to the present day work life and daily living? Are you saying that all Brahmins must now withdraw from business, jobs, all money earning, ruling and all other non-brahmin activities and get back to reciting Vedas, living on alms and never hoarding for the next day?<br /><br />As you have said so much I am sure you would have worked out a practical solution by now. How are you applying all that said in your life? <br />-zAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com