tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post2874782039045205646..comments2024-03-19T10:52:32.528+05:30Comments on Arunachala and Ramana Maharshi: The Feet of the GuruDavid Godmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-76227416534967838892010-11-17T09:06:08.679+05:302010-11-17T09:06:08.679+05:30You can establish a connection with Bhagavan, and ...You can establish a connection with Bhagavan, and receive his grace, by concentrating on an image of him. How much you get from doing this depends on how much you are prepared to give of yourself in the process. As Bhagavan remarked more than once: 'If you go to the ocean with a spoon, you get a spoonful; if you go with a bucket you get a bucketful.' If you are not receiving a lot from the ocean, you should not put the blame on its miserliness when the true fault lies in the space in the vessel you have brought to it.<br><br>Having said that, you should also understand that true grace, true upadesa and true initiation come from within.<br><br>This is what Bhagavan had to say on this subject in Sri Ramana Darsanam:<br><br>'Jnana is given neither from outside nor from another person. It can be realised by each and everyone in his own Heart. The jnana Guru of everyone is only the Supreme Self that is always revealing its own truth in every Heart through the existence-consciousness ‘I am, I am’. The granting of being-consciousness by him is initiation into jnana. The grace of the Guru is only this Self-awareness that is one’s own true nature. It is the being-consciousness by which he is unceasingly revealing his existence. This divine upadesa is always going on naturally in everyone. As this upadesa alone is what reveals the natural attainment of the Self through one’s own experience, the mature ones need at no time seek the help of external beings for jnana upadesa. The upadesa obtained from outsiders in forms such as sounds, gestures and thoughts are all only mental concepts. Since the meaning of the word upadesa (upa + desa) is only ‘abiding in the Self” or ‘abiding as the Self’, and since this is one’s own real nature, so long as one is seeking the Self from outside, Self-realisation cannot be attained. Since you are yourself the reality that is shining in the Heart as being-consciousness, abide always as a sthita prajna [one who is established in wisdom] having thus realised your own true nature. This firm abidance in the experience of the Self is described in the Upanishads by such terms as ‘the import of the mahavakyas’, ‘Supreme silence’, ‘Being still, ‘Quiescence of mind’, and ‘Realisation of one’s true nature’.'David Godmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-73711345914999157852010-11-17T09:06:08.185+05:302010-11-17T09:06:08.185+05:30David,I thought that anything belonging to a true ...David,<br><br>I thought that anything belonging to a true Guru can be powerful and can lead to any miracle including liberation. A gaze, touch, thought...simply anything. Bhagavan changed the whole course of the life of Annamalai Swamy by a tight hug. Ofcourse, we are all too familiar about his gaze. Regarding other Gurus, Raghavendra Swamy used to cause similar effects by mere pinch of soil he used to pick up randomly. <br><br>Considering the above, is there anything special about Feet? If so why? I know that feet are special in Indian culture symbolising surrender (catching feet is considered a symbol of surrendering) but in other cultures, it is not so. Does feet have their own culture-independent significance? I hope i am not rude in asking.<br><br>Regards MuraliMuralihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04720150736535781474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-78468289643738877262008-08-03T22:03:00.000+05:302008-08-03T22:03:00.000+05:30anonymousThe white boxes mostly came from document...anonymous<BR/><BR/>The white boxes mostly came from documents that had originated in text recognition programmes. I still don't know what kind of hidden formatting happens during this process, but I have now found a way of getting rid of it if it shows up in the published version. It shouldn't happen again.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-75426923655693338862008-08-03T11:52:00.000+05:302008-08-03T11:52:00.000+05:30Hi David,Regarding your problem of white patches a...Hi David,<BR/><BR/>Regarding your problem of white patches appearing in your post, my guess is, they come whenever you try copy-paste something from some other source.. say a pdf for example<BR/>you can try pasting the content on notepad first before pasting them in your postAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-8539151743827349872008-07-02T17:05:00.000+05:302008-07-02T17:05:00.000+05:30Thanks for your suggestion. Though I love the Tiru...Thanks for your suggestion. Though I love the Tiruvembavai poem, particularly since it was composed here at Tiruvannamalai while Manikkavachagar was performing pradakshina, I don't feel I am anywhere near competent enough to do justice to this subject. <BR/><BR/>I will, though, note that since Bhagavan himself asked Muruganar to write Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai in the style of Manikkavachagar's Tiruvachakam, it is not surprising that Muruganar focused heavily in all his works on the feet which, as you say, are a recurring motif in the Tiruvachakam poems.<BR/><BR/>In Padamalai 'padam', the foot, appears in all 3,000 verses. Perhaps, when no new ideas for posts surface in my brain, I will post some of Muruganar's Padamalai verses in which he sings the praises of the holy foot of Bhagavan which graced him with liberation.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-67745902407762002462008-07-02T12:07:00.000+05:302008-07-02T12:07:00.000+05:30Dear David, 'The feet of the Guru'again made me th...Dear David, 'The feet of the Guru'<BR/>again made me think of Manikka<BR/>Vachakar, whose Tiruvachakam is<BR/>mostly an eulogy of Siva's feet.<BR/>In "Tiruvembavai", he mentions about the feet of the Guru, in verses, 2,10,12,14,16,17,18 and 20. I humbly suggest that you <BR/>write on comparing Ramana Pada<BR/>Malai of Muruganar (Manikka<BR/>Vachakar of Siva-Ramana) and <BR/>Tiruvchakam.Subramanian. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-84844444377808316312008-06-28T14:54:00.000+05:302008-06-28T14:54:00.000+05:30Dear David, Reg: 'The Feet of theGuru',' the nayan...Dear David, Reg: 'The Feet of the<BR/>Guru',' the nayana diksha' and<BR/>'the hastha diksha' are for those<BR/>who are there in His presence.<BR/>But 'bhavana diksha' and 'sannithya diksha' are for those <BR/>who are not present but who <BR/>mediates on Him. Like the Hill,<BR/>He roots out the ego, when one<BR/>mediates on Him in his heart.<BR/>Further, ashtanga namaskarama before the feet of the Guru, is to indicate one's dropping of the ego and vanity.Subramanian. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-33881100885383809512008-06-27T07:23:00.000+05:302008-06-27T07:23:00.000+05:30RaviI think you are referring to a small booklet b...Ravi<BR/><BR/>I think you are referring to a small booklet by Perumal Swami that contained many untrue and uncomplimentary statements about Bhagavan. When it was published, Bhagavan read it and suggested that it be sold by the ashram gate. His idea was that the good devotees, the ones who knew that he was not capable of such things, would ignore it and come in, while everyone else would read it, be shocked, and not come in at all. The plan was never carried out because the devotees refused to sell a book that harshly criticised Bhagavan. However, the episode does illustrate the point that Bhagavan too felt that he was being bothered by too many people, and that he was willing to consider unorthodox ways of reducing their numbers.<BR/><BR/>The question of whether some Gurus dealt with situations more adequately than others would only be a valid one if they had the capacity to choose between different options. I don't think the ones you cited had this choice since the Self made them say and do the things that they said and did. As Bhagavan himself remarked in the Narayana Iyer post:<BR/><BR/>‘The jivanmukta is one without any thoughts or sankalpas [inherent tendencies]. The thought process ceases completely in him. Some power makes him do things. So he is not the doer but the one who is made to do.’<BR/><BR/>I remember an Austrian doctor asking Papaji why he had cancelled a big foreign trip after tickets had been bought, hotels booked, and so on.<BR/><BR/>He replied,'I never have reasons for anything that I do'.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-53931165240187622362008-06-27T04:43:00.000+05:302008-06-27T04:43:00.000+05:30@ravi,I think what Papaji meant was that there wer...@ravi,<BR/>I think what Papaji meant was that there were a few devotees who were pestering him for an 'experience' and he gave them what they wanted - a blissful experience to satisfy them (of course temporarily but long enough to think they were enlightened and leave him at peace for a while).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-84987735671766160612008-06-26T18:25:00.000+05:302008-06-26T18:25:00.000+05:30Papaji's explanations regarding the 'Leeches' is b...Papaji's explanations regarding the 'Leeches' is beyond my comprehension.I think that sri Ramana or Sri Ramakrishna would have handled this differently and more adequately.<BR/><BR/>I also recall how Sri Bhagavan did the 'proof reading' of a nonsense of his 'biography' written by a mischievous character who had the audacity to get it proof read by Ramana!How Sri Bhagavan cleared it for publication saying that it is all for good!The just 'inquisitive' will read it and decide not to visit him and the 'earnest'will continue to visit him!<BR/>Ofcourse the devotees barred it from being published.<BR/><BR/>Sri Bhagavan is inimitable in any aspect!Ravihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875076137584328729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-38551992335159283452008-06-26T12:32:00.000+05:302008-06-26T12:32:00.000+05:30The idea in the article you read probably came fro...The idea in the article you read probably came from the following exchange in Nothing Ever Happened, part three, page 365-7. The first paragraph was my introduction, and what follows is Papaji answering some of my questions:<BR/><BR/>The next series of questions examines the experiences that many devotees have been having in Papaji's presence. Though Papaji frequently congratulates devotees who speak to him about them in satsang, he makes it clear in the following exchanges that many of these people are settling for ecstatic or blissful experiences, rather than the state that lies behind them.<BR/><BR/>David: You used to give experiences to a lot of people. Why did you do it if you knew that the effects would not be permanent?<BR/><BR/>Papaji: I did it to get rid of the leeches that were sticking to me, never allowing me to rest or be by myself. It was a very good way of getting rid of all these leeches in a polite way. I knew that in doing this I was giving lollipops to the ignorant and innocent, but this is what these people wanted. When I tried to give $100 bills to them, they rejected them. They thought that they were just pieces of paper. So, I gave lollipops instead.<BR/><BR/>David: Many of the people you gave lollipops to left Lucknow thinking that they were enlightened. Does the fact that they accepted the lollipop indicate that they were not worthy to receive the $100 bills?<BR/><BR/>Papaji: If one is not a holy person, one is not worthy to receive the real teaching. Many people think that they have attained the final state of full and complete liberation. They have fooled themselves, and they have fooled many other people, but they have not fooled me.<BR/><BR/>A person in this state is like a fake coin. It may look like the real thing. It can be passed around and used by ignorant people who use it to buy things with. People who have it in their pocket can boast of having a genuine coin, but it is not real. It has no value. When it is finally discovered to be a fake, the person who is circulating it, claiming that it is real, is subject to the penalties of the law. In the spiritual world the law of karma catches up and deals with those who are trafficking in fake experiences.<BR/><BR/>I have never passed on the truth to those whom I cold see were fake coins. These people may look like gold and they may glitter for a while like gold, but they have no real value.<BR/><BR/>There are many people who can put on a good show and fool other people that they are enlightened. They can recite from the Upanishads, they can say that they are enlightened, and they can play that role very well.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-47359782447520616122008-06-26T09:55:00.000+05:302008-06-26T09:55:00.000+05:30In an article it was stated that Papaji was overhe...In an article it was stated that Papaji was overheard saying, "I tell them they are enlightened so they will go home and leave me alone".Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04613474706689272549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-72826983569117987602008-06-22T10:23:00.000+05:302008-06-22T10:23:00.000+05:30Yes, this happened when Annamalai Swami was on dut...Yes, this happened when Annamalai Swami was on duty as Bhagavan's attendant. Some people did manage to touch Bhagavan's feet, particularly in earlier years. Ganapati Muni, for example, threw himself at Bhagavan's feet at Virupaksha Cave and grabbed both of his feet.<BR/><BR/>Bhagavan knew that some devotees had a desire to touch his feet, and occasionally he would surreptitiously allow them. Balaram Reddy, for example, has described how Bhagavan once 'inadvertantly' let his toe touch Balaram Reddy's eyelid as he was prostrating to him.<BR/><BR/>The attendants had access to the feet because Bhagavan needed to have his legs and feet massaged regularly to alleviate the symptoms of his rheumatism.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-14145006782340085352008-06-22T08:03:00.000+05:302008-06-22T08:03:00.000+05:30Hi David,There was one more incident that I seem t...Hi David,<BR/><BR/>There was one more incident that I seem to recall from Living by the words of Bhagavan. It had something to do with a soldier who was passing through Tiruvanamalai and Bhagavan going to the toilet. Bhagavan gave access to his feet to this soldier. I hope I am not "butchering" the incident...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-19604780379872662452008-06-22T07:07:00.000+05:302008-06-22T07:07:00.000+05:30David,There is enormous gratitude here for this bl...David,<BR/>There is enormous gratitude here for this blog, all your postings.<BR/>Thank yousummahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08709272472448702350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-60537197250546581612008-06-21T07:27:00.000+05:302008-06-21T07:27:00.000+05:30AnonymousThat topic has been on my list of potenti...Anonymous<BR/><BR/>That topic has been on my list of potential topics ever since I started this blog. I hope to address it at some point over the next few weeks.<BR/><BR/>Murali<BR/><BR/>I don't much about 'the feet' in other cultures but I have always felt that veneration for the feet in Hinduism comes from the kind of examples that I gave in this post - the examples of mature devotees receiving major and occasionally liberating experiences through contact with their Guru's feet.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-43711578938763740222008-06-20T10:07:00.000+05:302008-06-20T10:07:00.000+05:30David,I thought that anything belonging to a true ...David,<BR/><BR/>I thought that anything belonging to a true Guru can be powerful and can lead to any miracle including liberation. A gaze, touch, thought...simply anything. Bhagavan changed the whole course of the life of Annamalai Swamy by a tight hug. Ofcourse, we are all too familiar about his gaze. Regarding other Gurus, Raghavendra Swamy used to cause similar effects by mere pinch of soil he used to pick up randomly. <BR/><BR/>Considering the above, is there anything special about Feet? If so why? I know that feet are special in Indian culture symbolising surrender (catching feet is considered a symbol of surrendering) but in other cultures, it is not so. Does feet have their own culture-independent significance? I hope i am not rude in asking.<BR/><BR/>Regards MuraliMuralihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04720150736535781474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-64387116171857220992008-06-20T09:59:00.000+05:302008-06-20T09:59:00.000+05:30David,Something to add to your 'To do' list. I had...David,<BR/>Something to add to your 'To do' list. I had a question on why Papaji declared so many to be enlightened (there are multiple stories in 'Nothing Ever Happened' indicating that many people may have reached the final state) but eventually said that the number of truly enlightened people can be counted on one's fingers - he didn't include any of his disciples in the list. Was he being modest?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-5440438412213210572008-06-20T05:11:00.000+05:302008-06-20T05:11:00.000+05:30thanks for the post..it's amazing how the meaning ...thanks for the post..it's amazing how the meaning of many ancient texts, rituals and traditions are hidden or misinterpreted until a true guru comes along to explain it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-81955906930507137302008-06-19T20:05:00.000+05:302008-06-19T20:05:00.000+05:30You can establish a connection with Bhagavan, and ...You can establish a connection with Bhagavan, and receive his grace, by concentrating on an image of him. How much you get from doing this depends on how much you are prepared to give of yourself in the process. As Bhagavan remarked more than once: 'If you go to the ocean with a spoon, you get a spoonful; if you go with a bucket you get a bucketful.' If you are not receiving a lot from the ocean, you should not put the blame on its miserliness when the true fault lies in the space in the vessel you have brought to it.<BR/><BR/>Having said that, you should also understand that true grace, true upadesa and true initiation come from within.<BR/><BR/>This is what Bhagavan had to say on this subject in Sri Ramana Darsanam:<BR/><BR/>'Jnana is given neither from outside nor from another person. It can be realised by each and everyone in his own Heart. The jnana Guru of everyone is only the Supreme Self that is always revealing its own truth in every Heart through the existence-consciousness ‘I am, I am’. The granting of being-consciousness by him is initiation into jnana. The grace of the Guru is only this Self-awareness that is one’s own true nature. It is the being-consciousness by which he is unceasingly revealing his existence. This divine upadesa is always going on naturally in everyone. As this upadesa alone is what reveals the natural attainment of the Self through one’s own experience, the mature ones need at no time seek the help of external beings for jnana upadesa. The upadesa obtained from outsiders in forms such as sounds, gestures and thoughts are all only mental concepts. Since the meaning of the word upadesa (upa + desa) is only ‘abiding in the Self” or ‘abiding as the Self’, and since this is one’s own real nature, so long as one is seeking the Self from outside, Self-realisation cannot be attained. Since you are yourself the reality that is shining in the Heart as being-consciousness, abide always as a sthita prajna [one who is established in wisdom] having thus realised your own true nature. This firm abidance in the experience of the Self is described in the Upanishads by such terms as ‘the import of the mahavakyas’, ‘Supreme silence’, ‘Being still, ‘Quiescence of mind’, and ‘Realisation of one’s true nature’.'David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-16228650841672048082008-06-18T21:34:00.000+05:302008-06-18T21:34:00.000+05:30Interesting post, thanks.It remindes me a doubt......Interesting post, thanks.<BR/>It remindes me a doubt...<BR/>Is it possible looking in the eyes of Ramana by picture or movie, or watching videos of your body receive any kinf od darshan or grace. <BR/>I know that the Real Guru is Our Inner Being, but can a devotional look into the eyes of Ramana pictures "give" upadesa or some kind of transmission to devotees that dont lived in the time of Ramanas's life and dont have any body contact with Him?celio leitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02274966067973017232noreply@blogger.com