tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post2020416713642555193..comments2024-03-20T13:24:11.422+05:30Comments on Arunachala and Ramana Maharshi: More on Bhagavan's death experienceDavid Godmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-61223305520621110402015-04-19T08:26:02.862+05:302015-04-19T08:26:02.862+05:30Namaskar David.
What is striking is the witness o...Namaskar David.<br /><br />What is striking is the witness of Swami Vivekananda offered in his Bangala poem SAMADHI, which has also been translated into English. The poem in Bangala is to be found in ViirVANi, at haimavati-anirvan.org, and in the Bangala works of Swamiji. It should be read carefully, and parsed word for word.<br /><br />"Shudhu matro bohe 'Ami-Ami'": describing the atma-sphurana stage, the arising of the I-I, also well-described in the Kashmir Shaiva schools in detail.<br /><br />Next, "tahao milaiya jaye" = "then, that too fades away" : this tallies with Bhagavan saying that the I-I fades away, like the flame catching a lump of camphor, and what remains is the ineffable Consciousness. Again, Kashmir Shaivas clearly describe the fading away of the I-I, and more, the parollAsa, vande jyotir anuttaram: <br /><br />sadA abhinava-guptam yad<br /> purANam ca prasiddhimat /<br /><br />hRdayam tat parollAsaiH<br />vande jyotir-anuttaram //<br /><br />Then what remains? Swami Vivekananda writes, almost in a self-absorbed state, avAngmanasagocaram.<br /><br />When Bhagavan's experiences are corroborated over a wide variety of VALID saintly accounts, we begin to see many points of exact correspondence and sequence in exact, precise order. This will help with much clarification.<br /><br />Today, there has arisen a school of hagiography and cultism which thrives on propagating that Bhagavan is UNIQUE, BEST, non-pareil, etc. Why they want to create this type of attitude is best left to them. It is this attitude of self-aggrandizement that causes so much pain in the world, when religions and groups begin to insist, my way is ultimately the best. <br /><br />Christianity is a prime example, having taking Christ's injunction to LOVE and turned it into an injunction to commit Genocide on a stupendous scale. <br /><br />If we do not check Ramanism in the bud, we shall have birthed a horror much worse. You can see the Hare Krishnas wreaking havoc with the very notion of "vedic" and with all aspects of the dharma preached by Shri Chaitanya. We need to learn our lessons very carefully. Being smug and superior are very great ills, and Tamils already suffer from far too much of those.gautamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05188124842361333060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-72595239684249288012014-11-03T02:34:59.976+05:302014-11-03T02:34:59.976+05:30Hello, I understand his experience because I too ...Hello, I understand his experience because I too have experienced it. Why did he cry infront of it? Because the "knowingness" of the love felt, experienced during the time in the state he was in, was just sooooo out of this world, that "knowingness" of the feeling of LOVE that is a LOVE like no other human love scenarios existing on the physical planet, was sooo powerful it made him cry? That...was my experience too...when one experiences that LOVE there are no words existing, nor really any words to explain the essence of what that LOVE is. Good though to truly know from the core of our being, that that LOVE exists and that LOVE LOVEs us always. Blessings and Namaste W.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-73429896396028968082011-02-17T17:51:35.003+05:302011-02-17T17:51:35.003+05:30To me it is all intellectually stimulating discuss...To me it is all intellectually stimulating discussion by different wisemen/sages I may say. The truth will reveal to the one who has gone through this experience.Let us try earnestly to experience thisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-88058115867755798342010-12-04T14:21:09.591+05:302010-12-04T14:21:09.591+05:30Hmmm! The title itself starts of with Bhagavan'...Hmmm! The title itself starts of with Bhagavan's death EXPERIENCE. Kind of funny the word "experience" has only been faulted now. What was meant was the annhilation of the ego, "the I am this body idea" which causes rebirth, which Bhagavan was able to do after his conscious voluntary death process at age 17 Regarding ajata or the dream of the waking state that requires a different thread altoghether.<br /><br />This death of the ego is only meant for those interested in actual liberation from further births or formlessness, not for those who like the idea of forms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-44644024274769349692010-12-03T14:54:33.384+05:302010-12-03T14:54:33.384+05:30Yes I have visited the great Meenakshi temple and ...Yes I have visited the great Meenakshi temple and have some interesting memories.<br />I went to the inner sanctum where Ramana wept in front of the 63 saints. It was dark and primordial and each deity was dressed in a different outfit representing various aspects and meaning, quite inexpressible. One of the priests had a pet fox and it walked around with great confidence and all the pilgrims swung around to have a second look<br />at the wild animal that had been tamed.hey judenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-20768752166668212712010-12-03T12:15:00.559+05:302010-12-03T12:15:00.559+05:30Hi Ravi,
Am glad you liked the post. Actually it ...Hi Ravi,<br /><br />Am glad you liked the post. Actually it was posted in 2008, but somehow blogger has popped it up again with a new date!<br /><br />But this gives me a chance to write again about the Meenakshi Mata Temple. I know that there are plenty of "touristy" crowds these days with only a little devotion on their minds. But for me, the temple remains as one of the most sacred and holy places one could ever visit. <br /><br />I really do believe that there is an integral link between Sri Bhagavan and Meenakshi Mata. Perhaps it was Her Grace that triggered the great events that day in July 1896. I know that this leads to hypothetical questions like, “Wouldn’t young Venkataraman have become enlightened even if he were not in Madurai; if he were in Tiruchuli, say ?” <br /><br />Yes, certainly, would be my reply. A ripe and spiritually mature Venkataraman would have become a Jnani even if he were in New Delhi! But seriously, I believe that Divinity works with the linking of the holy instruments It Itself makes available in the world at that point in time, and the Divine Intent was that young Venkataraman should be a few paces away from one of the holiest places on earth, Mother Meenakshi’s Temple. And thus a clue if you will, or a subtle linkage is available for those who would care to pay attention to it. That the Divine Intent was to show to devotees who follow, that the Grace of Mother Meenakshi Herself was directly at hand for young Venkataraman.<br /><br />I know there is little literature directly linking young Venkataraman with the temple. It is presumed that he only occasionally visited it for routine traditional pujas perhaps, and then later on, sometimes, when as Sri Bhagavan, He “shed tears”. But this does not take into account the scenario of a temple town in the 1890’s in India. Even if it was a “royal” town. Other than the palace & its compound & the British cantonment, the temple itself was the town. There was virtually nothing of note for the locals beyond 500 metres of the temple, other than other temples. Any child who lived there would have necessarily spent a considerable amount of time flitting in & out through the temple’s vast corridors & halls. The temple’s chambers would have been used for play & study & for carrying out the day to day routine of child-life.<br /><br />But the foregoing is only my personal belief. It helped me enormously in sadhana to stay close to the temple and pray to Mother Meenakshi for Grace in following Sri Bhagavan as my Guru. In fact, “enormously” does not even come close to describing it.<br /><br />Best wishesArvind Lalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08360948041915924290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-64719301892457860092010-12-03T08:35:48.513+05:302010-12-03T08:35:48.513+05:30Arvind,
Just now got to see your wonderful post(No...Arvind,<br />Just now got to see your wonderful post(Nov 17,2010)<br />namaskar.Ravihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875076137584328729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-27590801495116762472010-12-03T07:22:42.786+05:302010-12-03T07:22:42.786+05:30Prajnananda,
"which would certainly sprout in...Prajnananda,<br />"which would certainly sprout into another body according to its triple karma."<br />I agree with what you have posted,except the 'death experience' that you have mentioned.This is like any other experience-and no experience is the LAST one.There have been many jnanis who have not expressed anything like this.For instance Sri Annamalai Swami said that he just eased into self Realization.He used to say that the moment you start climbing a Hill,you start experiencing the coolness.<br />The other emphasis on 'Rebirth' -this is also another idea that gets dropped.The self is never born(ajata).<br />From another angle,for a true devotee(jnani)it hardly matters whether one is born or goes beyond it.As long as happiness and misery are the same,how does it matter whether one is born or not.<br />-----------------------------------<br />Just this moment,are we born or not;Are we in need of anything in this moment?<br />Namaskar.Ravihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875076137584328729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-59848373153772817112010-12-02T16:43:24.608+05:302010-12-02T16:43:24.608+05:30Dear Prajnananda,
we do not know whether Tony par...Dear Prajnananda,<br /><br />we do not know whether Tony parsons, Sailor Bob, John Wheeler, Eckhart Tolle and others have experienced the death of the ego and don't need to know it. Death of the ego is furthermore certainly not the implicit result of a physical death or a death experience but can happen in every second of life, and actually happens (in the absence of the I thought).<br /><br />But I appreciate your view of the problem that self realization certainly has much more to do with a kind of death experience as many people might assume. We tend to reduce life to this lifetime of the body. But we need to understand and to experience that a) universal life embraces "life" and death and is itself beyond of it and b) that we are part of this universal life.Clemens Vargas Ramoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06257066933525899061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-1044753871299712782010-12-02T15:54:47.867+05:302010-12-02T15:54:47.867+05:30I may come for a lot of critcism but I am going to...I may come for a lot of critcism but I am going to post this anyhow. Bhagavan realized his Self because of his conscious death experience at only age 17. Another longer and more acute death experience occured in the Virupaksha cave when Bhagavan's physical body was over 30 years.<br /><br />So anyway Venkatramana's causal/seed body or the anandamayakosha or the ego completely got destroyed during the death experiences. There was no way for the seed body to take on another body in another lifetime, as it happens to billions upon the death of the mortal body.<br /><br />So unless this happens (meaning the actual death of the ego) Self Realization will not occur. If I am not mistaken even Nisargadatta Maharaj also had a conscious death experience while alive.<br /><br />But then today we have so many neo advaitists from the West who do not give any importance to the conscious death experience where the ego or the anandamayakosha is destroyed resulting in liberation.<br /><br />We have so many neo advaitists and non dualists like Tony parsons, Sailor Bob, John Wheeler, Eckhart Tolle and countless others who call themselves sages, teachers and what not and do not even talk about the actual death fo the ego or the seed body which would certainly sprout into another body according to its triple karma. In fact they have not had their egos destroyed like Bhagavan did. <br /><br />These self appointed sages have not had a death experience and have only understood the subject matter in theory and claim that, that is enough and ridicule all talk of Self Realization saying such talk is only suppositional and not a necessary event in one's spiritual life.<br /><br />These neo advaitists conveniently dub the actual occurence of Self Realization or enlightenment or the actual death of the ego or the causal body as stupid concepts and conjecture.Prajnanandanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-44839516358031159012010-11-17T09:06:05.734+05:302010-11-17T09:06:05.734+05:30David, to add further to why Sri Bhagavan went to ...David, to add further to why Sri Bhagavan went to the Meenakshi Mata Temple and shed tears in front of the Images of the Nyanmars:<br><br>We need not suppose that the state of Self-realisation or Jnana is a dry, emotionless one; that after Self-realisation devotional behaviour is not possible. It seems that when the Jnani is active in the world he is drawn naturally towards the Lord and His stories and finds them all irresistibly touching. Sri Bhagavan Himself mentioned repeatedly how pure Devotion and Jnana go hand-in-hand; that the Jnani is indeed the greatest Devotee. <br><br>Suri Nagamma records in “Letters”, (3) “Quarrel between Uma and Maheswara” (23rd November 1945):<br><br>“…. When he spoke in this strain about her motherly affection [of the younger sister of Muttu Krishna Bhagavathar who had given Him food at Tirukoilur when He was on the way to Arunachala], I could see that Bhagavan was overflowing with love. His voice was choked with emotion. That sight reminded me of the saying that the heart of a Jnani is as soft as butter, and once more of the old saying “premapoornathaya Jnanam” (The culmination of devotion is Knowledge).<br><br>Sometime back, while reading that portion in Arunachalapurana where Gautama was extolling Amba, Bhagavan’s eyes were flooded with tears, his voice faltered and he put the book aside and sank into silence. Whenever any incident full of love takes place, or whenever passages saturated with bhakti are read, we often see Bhagavan thus overwhelmed with emotion. As one goes on observing, one gets confirmed in the view that prema and bhakti (devotion) are merely different aspects of Jnana (knowledge).”<br><br>[ Also, the query could be that why should a Jnani, post Self-realisation, visit the Meenakshi Mata Temple at all in the first place ? ] <br><br>Meenakshi Mata is absolutely the sweetest, most loving form of the Great Mother, ever, and the Temple is an absolute Mother-lode of holiness, sacredness and piety. It draws one in like a magnet so to speak. This is from personal experience. I once stayed close to the temple for just about a week with the intention of spending time in the upstairs room of Sri Bhagavan’s. Instead I found myself irresistibly drawn into the Temple’s cavernous halls and corridors more and more, sitting in obscure dark corners inside the vast complex, and indeed pausing for long in front of all the Images. This was for a dunderhead like me. For the young Venkatraman who had lived for so long so close to the Temple, and who was now a Jnani, the Temple would have exerted a fierce pull and He would have been drawn to it naturally. In fact, my belief is that Sri Bhagavan spent a lot more time inside the Temple than has been recorded.arvindhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08360948041915924290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-40428140224117753202010-11-17T09:06:02.002+05:302010-11-17T09:06:02.002+05:30Dear skeye, Bhagavan wept before63 saints and requ...Dear skeye, Bhagavan wept before<br>63 saints and requested for Grace,<br>not to self-realize (which is already over) but to take care of <br>His mission, for the sake of gracing others, for the remaining 54 years.Subramanian. Rhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-32390940338415906232008-07-01T10:18:00.000+05:302008-07-01T10:18:00.000+05:30I find this very interesting, especially that the ...I find this very interesting, especially that the power of the Self surging through a jnani's body can physically transform the cells. I wonder if it is only the cells of a jnani's body that can be transformed or if that could also happen with someone who is temporarily centered in the Self, who is still partly oriented to the 'I am the body' idea but is letting go of that. <BR/><BR/>This transforming of the cells reminds me of things I've heard and read related to 'New Age' thought, about changes occuring in people on a cellular level, as a result of the overall transformation of the earth and humanity that is supposedly occurring. It has always sounded rather hoaky and insubstantial to me, coming from that angle, but hearing it from you in relation to Bhagavan makes it sound much more real. <BR/><BR/>As far as those other systems I mentioned, I know a little bit about them and my sense is that they do refer to the same current or force that Bhagavan talked about. I may be wrong about this, but that is what I think. I find it exciting to see this possible link between Bhagavan's experience of the Self and these various energetic systems. <BR/><BR/>If you have more info related to this I would love to read it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, David.Jupeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04562814002037188693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-55608074622186016062008-07-01T08:55:00.000+05:302008-07-01T08:55:00.000+05:30Bhagavan used words such as 'silence' and 'stillne...Bhagavan used words such as 'silence' and 'stillness' to describe the unmanifest Self. However, when this same Self becomes active through its own inherent sakti, manifestation appears and is sustained. When identification with the individual 'I' is dropped, this energy is often experienced in the form of peace and bliss surging through the body. It is a tangible force that makes the body do the things it is destined to do and say the things it is destined to say. <BR/><BR/>Rangan was one of Bhagavan's school friends. When he came to Skandashram many years later, he massaged Bhagavan's legs and commented that at school his skin used to be very rough, whereas now it was smooth.<BR/><BR/>Bhagavan replied, 'This is not the old body. the old body was burned by jnanagni [the fire of jnana].'<BR/><BR/>The power of the Self surging through a jnani's body not only gives the experience of peace, it also physically transforms the cells of the body in some way.<BR/><BR/>I don't know enough about all the other systems you mentioned to comment on whether they are referring to the same force or principle, but I can confirm, on the basis of what Bhagavan has said, that this sakti can be experienced in a physical way once one has dropped the 'I am the body' idea.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-83488762306385518922008-07-01T04:59:00.000+05:302008-07-01T04:59:00.000+05:30"I felt that there was a force or current, a centr..."I felt that there was a force or current, a centre of energy playing on the body, continuing regardless of the rigidity or activity of the body, though existing in connection with it. It was that current, force or centre that constituted my Self, that kept me acting and moving, but this was the first time I came to know it. I had no idea of my Self before that. From that time on, I was spending my time absorbed in contemplation of that current."<BR/><BR/>I finally got around to reading the May 7th post on Bhagavan's death experience and can see why it was such a big hit on the blog. I am especially struck by the sentences quoted above. I don't recall ever reading anything where Bhagavan used those words 'current, force, or centre' to describe the Self. To my way of thinking this description of the Self comes closest to seeming almost physical, or within the realm of sensation. It almost sounds like he's describing electricity, the basic electrical force of the body and the universe, well-known among acupuncturists, reiki practitioners, polarity therapists, etc. The chi of Qi Gong and T'ai Chi. Since that energy is something that can be felt, I have always assumed that the Self was beyond that, if 'beyond' is the right word.<BR/><BR/>David, could you please address this and clarify? Thanks!Jupeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04562814002037188693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-65516844102903202482008-06-28T17:12:00.000+05:302008-06-28T17:12:00.000+05:30Dear David, in the first death experience of Bhaga...Dear David, in the first death experience of Bhagavan in Madurai<BR/>house, there was no time element at all, perhaps it was instantaneous; the second experience in the Hill, in the presence of Vasudeva Sastri, <BR/>according to Bhagavan, lasted for <BR/>about 15 minutes.Subramanian. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-9050149431365006492008-06-28T17:10:00.000+05:302008-06-28T17:10:00.000+05:30Dear skeye, Bhagavan wept before63 saints and requ...Dear skeye, Bhagavan wept before<BR/>63 saints and requested for Grace,<BR/>not to self-realize (which is already over) but to take care of <BR/>His mission, for the sake of gracing others, for the remaining 54 years.Subramanian. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-72705331765814312012008-06-28T17:08:00.000+05:302008-06-28T17:08:00.000+05:30Dear skeye, Bhagavan wept before63 saints and requ...Dear skeye, Bhagavan wept before<BR/>63 saints and requested for Grace,<BR/>not to self-realize (which is already over) but to take care of <BR/>His mission, for the sake of gracing others, for the remaining 54 years.Subramanian. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-65546007446408028502008-06-28T14:42:00.000+05:302008-06-28T14:42:00.000+05:30Dear David, Reg: Bhagavan's death experience. Kri...Dear David, Reg: Bhagavan's death experience. Krishna Bhikshu's book is unique and closest to the truth in many respects. Eg. When Echammal <BR/>merged in the Self, Bhagavan had<BR/>commented: " Now, Keerai Patti<BR/>remains..." indicating that He <BR/>would shed His body only after <BR/>Patti's merger in the Self. Again,<BR/>Krishna Bhikshu says: "Bhagavan is an avatara of Skanda and Jnana <BR/>Sambandha." No one after Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni, wrote this in a forthright manner.Subramanian. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-50255527481010083382008-06-26T23:20:00.000+05:302008-06-26T23:20:00.000+05:30Thank you David for patiently responding to the co...Thank you David for patiently responding to the comments made. And, forgive me for carrying on the discussion on this topic further, now already much extended.<BR/><BR/>This one continues on trying to understand Sri Bhagavan’s prayers to God for Grace after His realization …<BR/><BR/>The Nyanmars were all great Devotees of God. Though I could be wrong, I don’t seem to recall now whether even one of them went through the path of Jnana to achieve liberation. And most of them achieved liberation in the form of – physical union / absorption with God or physical transport in their existent bodies to the abode of God. Some did that immediately whereas some left us their marvelous devotional hymns before their final liberation.<BR/><BR/>So when Sri Bhagavan prays to God “for the same Grace He gave to the saints” it is the Devotional aspect of the Jnani coming to the fore. It is not as if, after His enlightenment, He went with any pre-planned intention to pray in such a manner in front of the Images. The prayers were unintended and spontaneous outpourings of devotion / devotional emotion once He had been drawn into the temple. In front of the heart-melting images of the great Nyanmar devotees it was as if the Heart of the Jnani took on the bhakti-shade from them and wept spontaneously for God’s love much as the great saints had themselves wept. He was not actually praying for Grace for any further liberation from God. It was that – in a helpless, devotional burst of love, much like a child who wants the same sweet as was given by the father to his brothers without any intention of actually eating it, but solely because he wants to feel loved by his father, He wanted the “same Grace” from the Divine Father.Arvind Lalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08360948041915924290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-41873230098266061662008-06-26T18:27:00.000+05:302008-06-26T18:27:00.000+05:30AnonymousThe second death experience was a physica...Anonymous<BR/><BR/>The second death experience was a physical death experience in so far as Bhagavan says that his circulation and heart-beat both temporarily stopped. I think the Madurai death experience was an ego-death; there is no record of Bhagavan's body having had a near-death experience in the moments it took him to realise the Self.<BR/><BR/>Lakshmana Swamy often used to say, For realisation, the mind must die. there is no other way.' He used to say that anything short of that was not true realisation. He does not accept that mind in any shape of form can exist after realisation.<BR/><BR/>I have not heard any of the people you refer to speak about this second death experience.<BR/><BR/>I remember Nisargadatta telling a visitor 'For enlightenment to be complete, you must have witnessed your own death'. It must have happened to him for him to make this comment, but I don't remember reading any description of it anywhere.<BR/><BR/>I think that Bhagavan's return to normal functioning took place gradually over several years. At the beginning of the twentieth century he was absorbed in the Self most of the time, and mostly incapable of speech. By the time Ganapati Muni came to see him in 1908, he was talking a little and leading a more normal life. By 1912, which is when the second death experience took place, the process of normalisation was virtually complete. The visit of Humphreys in 1911, for example, indicates that Bhagavan was dealing with visitors and talking to them in a normal way. I don't think there is much evidence to say that the second death experience was a key moment in his development.<BR/><BR/>Arvind<BR/><BR/>I agree that Bhagavan used to melt and even cry when stories of the Gods were told, or when he had to tell them himself. That is slightly different to crying to God for grace. I agree with the person who first posed the question on this: it's a little odd that Bhagavan would be praying to God for grace after his realisation.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-51335634913776893872008-06-26T18:15:00.000+05:302008-06-26T18:15:00.000+05:30David,Thanks for the lovely posts. God Bless. Can ...David,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the lovely posts. God Bless. <BR/><BR/>Can you please also have a post down the line on the "Tortoise Rock" death experience if possible?<BR/><BR/>I was going thru your article on Nisargatta Maharaj (in your site) and I am enclosing the snippet below and wondering whether this is kind of related to the Totoise Rock experience which Bahagwan had. <BR/> <BR/>-------------------------<BR/><BR/>At some point Maharaj asked him, 'Have you witnessed your own death?' and Rudi replied 'No'. <BR/><BR/> Maharaj then launched into a mini-lecture on how it was necessary to witness one's own death in order for there to be full realisation of the Self. He said that it had happened to him after he thought that he had fully realised the Self, and it wasn't until after this death experience that he understood that this process was necessary for final liberation.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13108703696211369148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-30708177230955434162008-06-26T18:04:00.000+05:302008-06-26T18:04:00.000+05:30Dear David,Thank you for the post on Bhagavan's de...Dear David,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the post on Bhagavan's death experience.<BR/>It seems there was a second death experience in 1912. All the bios of Bhagavan report this, but do not comment any futher. Bhagavan himself seems to shrug this of by saying that he used to have these kind of experiences earlier too, only this time (in 1912 that is), it was more intense. In his bio of Bhagavan, Prof Swaminathan seems to imply (at least that is my understanding), that only after this second death experience, Bhagavan became less withdrawn and more comfortable with the world of "becoming".<BR/><BR/>In your interations with devotees like Kunju Swami, Sadhu Om, Poonjaji, Annamalai Swami, Lakshmana Swami, have they commented and elaborated further on this second death experience ?<BR/><BR/>May we also know your own views on this ?<BR/><BR/>Thank you,<BR/>shivAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-28966706905128549732008-06-26T13:09:00.000+05:302008-06-26T13:09:00.000+05:30David, to add further to why Sri Bhagavan went to ...David, to add further to why Sri Bhagavan went to the Meenakshi Mata Temple and shed tears in front of the Images of the Nyanmars:<BR/><BR/>We need not suppose that the state of Self-realisation or Jnana is a dry, emotionless one; that after Self-realisation devotional behaviour is not possible. It seems that when the Jnani is active in the world he is drawn naturally towards the Lord and His stories and finds them all irresistibly touching. Sri Bhagavan Himself mentioned repeatedly how pure Devotion and Jnana go hand-in-hand; that the Jnani is indeed the greatest Devotee. <BR/><BR/>Suri Nagamma records in “Letters”, (3) “Quarrel between Uma and Maheswara” (23rd November 1945):<BR/><BR/>“…. When he spoke in this strain about her motherly affection [of the younger sister of Muttu Krishna Bhagavathar who had given Him food at Tirukoilur when He was on the way to Arunachala], I could see that Bhagavan was overflowing with love. His voice was choked with emotion. That sight reminded me of the saying that the heart of a Jnani is as soft as butter, and once more of the old saying “premapoornathaya Jnanam” (The culmination of devotion is Knowledge).<BR/><BR/>Sometime back, while reading that portion in Arunachalapurana where Gautama was extolling Amba, Bhagavan’s eyes were flooded with tears, his voice faltered and he put the book aside and sank into silence. Whenever any incident full of love takes place, or whenever passages saturated with bhakti are read, we often see Bhagavan thus overwhelmed with emotion. As one goes on observing, one gets confirmed in the view that prema and bhakti (devotion) are merely different aspects of Jnana (knowledge).”<BR/><BR/>[ Also, the query could be that why should a Jnani, post Self-realisation, visit the Meenakshi Mata Temple at all in the first place ? ] <BR/><BR/>Meenakshi Mata is absolutely the sweetest, most loving form of the Great Mother, ever, and the Temple is an absolute Mother-lode of holiness, sacredness and piety. It draws one in like a magnet so to speak. This is from personal experience. I once stayed close to the temple for just about a week with the intention of spending time in the upstairs room of Sri Bhagavan’s. Instead I found myself irresistibly drawn into the Temple’s cavernous halls and corridors more and more, sitting in obscure dark corners inside the vast complex, and indeed pausing for long in front of all the Images. This was for a dunderhead like me. For the young Venkatraman who had lived for so long so close to the Temple, and who was now a Jnani, the Temple would have exerted a fierce pull and He would have been drawn to it naturally. In fact, my belief is that Sri Bhagavan spent a lot more time inside the Temple than has been recorded.Arvind Lalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08360948041915924290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-67670240233347945922008-06-26T08:30:00.000+05:302008-06-26T08:30:00.000+05:30SonachalaBhagavan has said (see the Vichara Sangra...Sonachala<BR/><BR/>Bhagavan has said (see the Vichara Sangraham quote that I gave in the post) that the aham sphurana is something that belongs neither to the Self nor the ego. It is some intermediate state which indicates that the individual is vanishing. The Self has not yet fully revealed itself in its pure and final form, but in this aham sphurana some hint or indication of its glory is already being experienced. It can, therefore, be said that it is a manifestation of the Self, but it is not a full and definitive one.<BR/><BR/>There is a long-standing tradition among Tamil poet-saints of pleading with God for grace long after that grace has been fully received. Bhagavan said that the four poet-saints Jnanasambandar, Appar, Sundaramurti and Manikkavachagar all indicated in their very first verse that they had attained union with God, yet they all went on to write poems in which they begged Siva for grace. This seems to be a standard bhava in Tamil devotional poetry, and even Bhagavan indulged in this in Aksharamanamalai, which was written around 1913, many years after his final and complete realisation. It is possible that Bhagavan had samskaras of this kind left over from a previous life as a Saiva saint.<BR/><BR/>Arvind<BR/><BR/>When there is identification with the body, a knowledge and an experience that the ego-I is about to be extinguished can feel like a fear of death since the two entities - body and ego - are inextricably linked at that point. I noted in one of my first posts in April (The Role of the Heart-centre in Self-realisation) that when the 'I' approaches the Heart, intense fear often ensues. Usually this results in the 'I' returning to the brain and resuming its former existence. However, in cases where the 'I' is mature and ready for dissolution, it sinks into the Heart and dies.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I feel that the sudden fear of death arose from Bhagavan suddenly becoming aware that his 'I'-thought was near the Heart. If this is so, it would mean that the process of Self-realisation was well under way when Bhagavan first became aware of it. This in turn adds weight to my belief that it was something that happened to him, rather than something he personally orchestrated.<BR/><BR/>Skeye<BR/><BR/>I mentioned earlier that I thought it possible that samskaras made Bhagavan go to the Madurai Temple and ask for grace. The connection with Arunachala can also be attributed to samskaras. In the first verse of Arunachhala Ashtakam Bhagavan noted, 'From my unthinking childhood, the immensity of Arunachala had shone in my awareness'. That is to say, the connection with Arunachala existed before he even had the capacity to think about it or rationalise it. In my opinion such feelings could only come from a previous past-life connection with the mountain.<BR/><BR/>When he went to Arunachala, it was not because he was spiritually incomplete in any way. His sadhana was over at the end of the death-experience. He went because a long-standing love of Arunachala spontaneously drew him there.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.com