tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post1781385855276405366..comments2024-03-20T13:24:11.422+05:30Comments on Arunachala and Ramana Maharshi: Bhagavan’s Promises and DeclarationsDavid Godmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-71787515679295002132012-08-27T17:13:23.513+05:302012-08-27T17:13:23.513+05:30['To the Kalamas contd..]
“It was for this rea...['To the Kalamas contd..]<br />“It was for this reason, Kalamas, that we said: Do not go upon oral tradition….<br />“Then, Kalamas, that noble disciple—devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unconfused, clearly comprehending, ever mindful—dwells pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving kindness, likewise the second quarter, the third and the fourth.<br /><br /> “When, Kalamas, this noble disciple has thus made his mind free of enmity, free of ill will,<br />uncorrupted and pure, he has won four assurances in this very life.<br /><br />“The first assurance he has won is this: “If there is another world, and if good and bad deeds<br />bear fruit and yield results, it is possible that with the breakup of the body, after death, I shall<br />arise in a good destination, in a heavenly world.’<br />“The second assurance he has won is this: “If there is no other world, and if good and bad<br />deeds do not bear fruit and yield results, still right here, in this very life, I live happily, free of<br />enmity and ill will.<br />“The third assurance he has won is this: “Suppose evil befalls the evil-doer. Then, as I do not<br />intend evil for anyone, how can suffering afflict me, one who does no evil deed?’<br />“The fourth assurance he has won is this: “Suppose evil does not befall the evil-doer. Then<br />right here I see myself purified in both respects.’68<br />“When, Kalamas, this noble disciple has thus made his mind free of enmity, free of ill will,<br />uncorrupted and pure, he has won these four assurances in this very life.”<br />“So it is, Blessed One! So it is, Sublime One! When this noble disciple has thus made his mind<br />free of enmity, free of ill will, uncorrupted, and pure, he has won these four assurances in this<br />very life.<br />“Excellent, Lord!… (as in Text 28) … Let the Blessed One accept us as lay followers who have<br />gone for refuge from today until life’s end.”<br />[Not just Kalamas this profound wisdom should satisfy the Aristotles,Platos,Rational Philosophers,Nihilists,Existenstialists,Logicians,the confused..]Chakrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564584607595615980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-17188558442128451482012-08-27T17:11:40.974+05:302012-08-27T17:11:40.974+05:30**********************************
From Anguttara ...**********************************<br />From Anguttara Nikaya translated by<br />Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi<br />www.scribd.com/Buddhist_Publication_Society<br />**********************************<br />30. To the Kalamas<br />..Then the Kalamas said to the Blessed One:“There are, Lord, some ascetics and brahmins who come to Kesaputta. They explain and<br />elucidate their own doctrines, but disparage, debunk, revile and vilify the doctrines of others.But then some other ascetics and brahmins come to Kesaputta, and they too explain and elucidate their own doctrines, but disparage, debunk, revile and vilify the doctrines of the others. For us, Lord, there is perplexity and doubt as to which of these good ascetics speak truth and which speak falsehood.”<br />“It is fitting for you to be perplexed, O Kalamas, it is fitting for you to be in doubt. Doubt has arisen in you about a perplexing matter. Come, Kalamas. Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a collection of scriptures, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reflection on reasons, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think, ’The ascetic is our teacher.’65 But when you know for yourselves, ’These things are unwholesome, these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; these things, if undertaken and practised, lead to harm and suffering,’ then you should abandon them.<br />“What do you think, Kalamas? When greed, hatred, and delusion arise in a person, is it for his welfare or harm?”66—“For his harm, Lord.”—“Kalamas, a person who is greedy, hating and deluded, overpowered by greed, hatred, and delusion, his thoughts controlled by them, will destroy life, take what is not given, engage in sexual misconduct and tell lies; he will also prompt others to do likewise. Will that conduce to his harm and suffering for a long time?”—“Yes, Lord.”<br />“What do you think, Kalamas? Are these things wholesome or unwholesome?<br />—“Unwholesome, Lord.”—“Blamable or blameless?”—“Blamable, Lord.”—“Censured or<br />praised by the wise?”—“Censured, Lord.”—“Undertaken and practised, do they lead to harm<br />and suffering or not, or how is it in this case?”—“Undertaken and practised, these things lead to<br />harm and suffering. So it appears to us in this case.”<br />“It was for this reason, Kalamas, that we said: Do not go by oral tradition.…<br />“Come, Kalamas. Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a<br />collection of scriptures, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reflection on reasons,<br />by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or<br />because you think, “The ascetic is our teacher.’ But when you know for yourselves, “These<br />things are wholesome, these things are blameless; these things are praised by the wise; these<br />things, if undertaken and practised, lead to welfare and happiness,’ then you should engage in<br />them.<br />“What do you think, Kalamas? When non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion arise in a<br />person, is it for his welfare or harm?”—“For his welfare, Lord.”—“Kalamas, a person who is<br />without greed, without hatred, without delusion, not overpowered by greed, hatred, and<br />delusion, his thoughts not controlled by them, will abstain from the destruction of life, from<br />taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct and from false speech; he will also prompt<br />others to do likewise. Will that conduce to his welfare and happiness for a long time?”—“Yes,<br />Lord.”<br />“What do you think, Kalamas? Are these things wholesome or unwholesome?—“Wholesome,<br />Lord.”—“Blamable or blameless?”—“Blameless, Lord.”—“Censured or praised by the<br />wise?”—“Praised, Lord.”—“Undertaken and practised, do they lead to welfare and happiness<br />or not, or how is it in this case?”—“Undertaken and practised, these things lead to welfare and happiness. So it appears to us in this case.”<br />[contd..]Chakrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564584607595615980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-40058999682114629812010-11-17T09:06:37.722+05:302010-11-17T09:06:37.722+05:30Dear David, Bhagavan alwaysprescribed 'surren...Dear David, Bhagavan always<br>prescribed 'surrender' to those<br>who cannot do 'self-enquiry.'<br>When during His last days, <br>Gurram Venkata Subbramaiah<br>beseeched 'Abhayam' (give me<br>refuge), He said ' 'icchenu' in <br>Telugu meaning ' I am giving'.<br>That is the last assurance of Bhagavan, while He was in His body. This is more evident, when<br>during His last day, He asked the<br>attendants: ' Have the peacocks,<br>which are cooing, been fed?'Subramanian. Rhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-4089841580998347562008-06-28T17:28:00.000+05:302008-06-28T17:28:00.000+05:30Dear David, Bhagavan alwaysprescribed 'surrender'...Dear David, Bhagavan always<BR/>prescribed 'surrender' to those<BR/>who cannot do 'self-enquiry.'<BR/>When during His last days, <BR/>Gurram Venkata Subbramaiah<BR/>beseeched 'Abhayam' (give me<BR/>refuge), He said ' 'icchenu' in <BR/>Telugu meaning ' I am giving'.<BR/>That is the last assurance of Bhagavan, while He was in His body. This is more evident, when<BR/>during His last day, He asked the<BR/>attendants: ' Have the peacocks,<BR/>which are cooing, been fed?'Subramanian. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07503810836611357841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-50544680052396098002008-06-10T20:00:00.000+05:302008-06-10T20:00:00.000+05:30David told in an interview that Bhagavan is all th...David told in an interview that Bhagavan is all things to all people. I think that every message Bhagavan gives is very personal and it can range from one end to other end. Finally, He is a Jnani, an embodiment of the Self and it is from the Self itself that all kinds of paths, all kinds of sadhanas have emerged. So, I think that the Self is capable of giving totally contradictory advise to devotees based on what is sees as fit.<BR/><BR/>Regards MuraliMuralihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04720150736535781474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-61397806085758681432008-06-10T17:18:00.000+05:302008-06-10T17:18:00.000+05:30Thanks to Murali, Anonymous, David and Nandu for y...Thanks to Murali, Anonymous, David and Nandu for your comments.<BR/>Muruganar is an exemplary devotee with the highest degree of attainment and I would not cast aspersion on him. It is just that these verses were so irregular and out of character that a doubt arose in my mind.<BR/>After reflecting on your responses, I now feel comfortable to accept that it is more likely that these 'controversial' verses were words spoken to Muruganar in 'private' (alone)as we are aware this in not how Bhagavan generally spoke in 'public'(in the presence of other devotees).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-63204366410756340202008-06-10T16:23:00.000+05:302008-06-10T16:23:00.000+05:30Dear Sonachala,I would believe that they are indee...Dear Sonachala,<BR/><BR/>I would believe that they are indeed Bhagavan's statements. On other occasions, he has hinted at the same thing, for instance, likening a devotee who worries to a man who carries his luggage on his head, even after boarding a railway compartment.<BR/><BR/>Could it be possible that these were utterances made to specific queries to Muruganar, who the Maharshi knew to be a pure devotee? And therefore the change of style?<BR/><BR/>David, can you please elaborate, if this is true or not?Nandu Narasimhanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18017383698302259046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-69366152601056478892008-06-07T05:45:00.000+05:302008-06-07T05:45:00.000+05:30David,Thank you for all you are writing here.I wis...David,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for all you are writing here.<BR/><BR/>I wish you would write about gratitude. I was very impressed by by the personal experiences you recounted in an interview with Maalok a few years ago.Summa Irukalamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11598031724902945302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-4758286848205699052008-06-06T08:12:00.000+05:302008-06-06T08:12:00.000+05:30SonachalaI think the only embellishments here are ...Sonachala<BR/><BR/>I think the only embellishments here are Muruganar's repeated use of the word 'padam', 'the foot'. It occurs in all 3,000 verses. When Bhagavan referred to himself, he would generally use the term 'Bhagavan'. <BR/><BR/>If you read the whole work you will find that about 90% of it comprises terse, very accurate statements that Bhagavan made on various aspects of his teachings. Padamalai was not intended to be a work of poetic imagination; it was intended to be a record of what Bhagavan said. I believe that this applies to the 'Promises' chapter as much as it does to the sections on philosophy and practice.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-11243857436304927712008-06-06T04:22:00.000+05:302008-06-06T04:22:00.000+05:30@SonachalaThese verses are in no way poetic imagin...@Sonachala<BR/>These verses are in no way poetic imagination. Muruganar is the foremost of Bhagavan's devotees and all his work, poetry or otherwise was inspired and in this case directly heard from Bhagavan himself. Of course Muruganar may have paraphrased but calling it imagination would be tantamount to saying Muruganar lied and that can't be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-81739498677338645582008-06-04T21:37:00.000+05:302008-06-04T21:37:00.000+05:30My humble opinion is that those who have realized ...My humble opinion is that those who have realized the Self are embodiment of Truth itself and even poetically, they cannot utter anything which is not Truth. <BR/><BR/>Regards MuraliMuralihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04720150736535781474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-33533079991677569452008-06-04T20:43:00.000+05:302008-06-04T20:43:00.000+05:30I am tempted to dismiss these verses as a product...I am tempted to dismiss these verses as a product of poetic imagination of Muruganar.(Many sincere devotees believe he had realized by Bhagavan's Grace). <BR/>But this conclusion is dangerous as it may reduce the credibility of all his other writings which are are widely accepted as a treasurehouse of Sri Bhagavan's Teachings. <BR/>Even though Bhagavan had gone through Muruganar's works like Guru Vachaka Kovai and thus put His stamp on it, we have also come across instances with the writings of other devotees where Bhagavan does not correct certain mistakes / inaccuracies even after pointing them out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-70086035467981605892008-06-04T11:32:00.000+05:302008-06-04T11:32:00.000+05:30I agree that they are highly unusual. However, as ...I agree that they are highly unusual. However, as I remarked in the introduction, Muruganar put an 'en Padam' ('said Padam') at the end of these verses, indicating that they were statements that he had heard Bhagavan say.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-37446059913946047652008-06-04T11:03:00.000+05:302008-06-04T11:03:00.000+05:30I posted here yesterday but somehow it did not app...I posted here yesterday but somehow it did not appear, so I do it again.<BR/><BR/>The 'promises and declaration' are more than extraordinary. Though the verses are in accord with the teachings of Bhagavan, they don't sound like Bhagavan at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-75020958976740798952008-06-03T14:50:00.000+05:302008-06-03T14:50:00.000+05:30How refreshing, encouraging and uplifting it is to...How refreshing, encouraging and uplifting it is to listen to other's experiences on the path!<BR/><BR/>Thanks David a lot.<BR/><BR/>Regards MuraliMuralihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04720150736535781474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-88832762115743917652008-06-03T12:54:00.000+05:302008-06-03T12:54:00.000+05:30It does initially take a bit of courage to let go ...It does initially take a bit of courage to let go the 'I am in charge of my life' idea and hand over the running of it to Bhagavan.<BR/><BR/>I got into the habit of telling Bhagavan about all the events in my life, and then adding 'You take care of this; it's not my responsibility.' I don't ask for anything (or hardly ever!). I just cultivate the idea 'Thy will be done' and leave him to sort out the details. Having found out through doing this repeatedly that he is a far better manager of my life than I ever was, I now find it a pleasant relief, rather than an act of courage, to tell him about a story or a problem, and then just drop it from my mind. <BR/><BR/>Bringing a story to the attention of a jnani invokes what Bhagavan used to call 'automatic divine activity'. Let Him know what is going on. Trust Him to deal with it, and leave the details to Him.David Godmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354181925332694222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-78219553672853853652008-06-03T12:04:00.000+05:302008-06-03T12:04:00.000+05:30"...make sure that all your burdens are placed on ..."...make sure that all your burdens are placed on me through the courageous act of depending totally on grace."<BR/><BR/>The word "courageous" makes me wonder that Bhagavan is indicating that Depending on Grace initially might feel like jumping out of the balcony. This is how atleast I feel when I am practicing the dependence.<BR/><BR/>David: What is your experience in inculatating this attitude of dependence? How did you start it and how did it culminate? Is it that we initially start with intellectually appreciating it and then slowly try to cultivate it OR is it that it just happens in a moment of Grace?<BR/><BR/>Regards MuraliMuralihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04720150736535781474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-63111180670291917742008-06-03T07:35:00.000+05:302008-06-03T07:35:00.000+05:30Thanks for these wonderful verses! It seems so eas...Thanks for these wonderful verses! It seems so easy and yet, because of vasanas, it seems difficult!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3961358105214008284.post-15277111235047359012008-06-03T01:40:00.000+05:302008-06-03T01:40:00.000+05:30Wow! What sweet, precious pearls these are! Each o...Wow! What sweet, precious pearls these are! Each one evokes such a feeling of being loved and cared for by Bhagavan. This is indeed an extraordinary series. Thank you so much for posting them. And how very true that if one does not hand over one's worries and burdens to Bhagavan, "one cannot perform, with a one-pointed mind, either devotion or self-enquiry." (from the comments following verse 12) All the more reason to give it all to Bhagavan.Jupeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04562814002037188693noreply@blogger.com